Shameless
It will be interesting to see if this idea manages to gain legs.
Gavin brought up the idea not too long ago that for the people who inhabit what passes for “the Right” nowadays, the concept, “argument in good faith” might as well be a text written in Minoan Linear A. Keep that in mind while we take a look at Linda Chavez’s argument here.
Destroying CIA Tapes Deserves a Thank You
By Linda ChavezHis name isn’t yet familiar to most Americans, but I expect it will be by the end of 2008: Jose A. Rodriguez Jr. He is the man, according to recent press reports, who ordered the destruction of interrogation tapes made by the CIA, which allegedly show the effects of waterboarding and other “enhanced interrogation techniques” used against terrorists Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri. In the next few months, his name will likely be dragged through the mud, and he will be vilified as a rogue official engaged in a massive cover-up. I think he deserves a medal.
[emphasis added]
There. See what I mean? This isn’t about honest argumentation. This is about taking reality and standing it on its head. This is about being as verbally shocking as possible, in order to confuse and muddy the issue as much as possible. This is beyond even the Overton window; this is about shouting “nigger” in a crowded theater. People who cover up evidence of America violating international war crimes laws are actually good people, not bad people, because when America does things that would have gotten government officials brought before Nuremburg tribunals sixty years ago, that’s a good thing, not a bad thing.
According to information that has already leaked out about the investigations into the CIA tapes, Rodriguez, who was head of the agency’s clandestine operations at the time, made the decision to destroy the videos in November 2005. The tapes themselves were made in 2002, just months after the United States experienced the most devastating foreign attack against American civilians in our nation’s history.
Looking back, it’s very easy to condemn the extraordinary measures our government took to try to save lives in the wake of 9/11. And, of course, the media and members of Congress have perfect 20/20 hindsight, but the rest of us should show a little restraint when it comes to judging past decisions in light of contemporary misgivings.
A collective amnesia seems to have set in on what conditions were like in 2002 when those CIA interrogations took place. Most Americans fully expected that the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon were just the beginning of a terrorist war on American civilians. After all, we were being told by nearly everyone in a position to know that the question was not if we would suffer another major terrorist attack, but when.
There’s no collective amnesia here. As someone who lived close enough to the WTC to have spent several months of my professional life helping people deal with the aftermath, as someone who lost people she knew professionally (but thankfully, no one she was particularly close to) on that day, I can tell you that whatever fears I may have had of “a terrorist war” were officially over by September 12, 2001. And the only reason anyone was particularly worried about another terrorist attack is because dishonest, mendacious little shits were busy lying through their teeth and saying anything at all to advance their personal vision of American government — which is exactly what Chavez is doing here. Gotta give them points for consistency.
So what exactly did we expect the CIA to do when they captured high-level al-Qaida operatives? Read them their Miranda rights, provide them with free lawyers and place them in a cell with cable TV?
No, you blathering, drooling, crapulous sack of dishonesty — we expected them to not torture people. It’s the sort of basic expectation your average sane person has of their government. I know you don’t hear people say it very often, but that’s because it is such a bare-bones expectation of what a government will do that verbalizing it feels a little crazy. It’s like how when people get married, they promise to love and honor, but you never hear people promising to, say, never use the living room carpet as a toilet. We just automatically assume that sane people will never do these things. Alas, when it comes to the Bush wing of the Republican party, our first mistake was in assuming they operate by the same definitions of civilization and sanity as the rest of us.
We don’t know exactly what the captured al-Qaida operatives told interrogators — thankfully — but we do know that there hasn’t been another al-Qaida attack in the United States in more than six years. We also know that congressional leaders, at least initially, made no objections to the use of waterboarding when they were informed about it in September 2002. (Speaker Pelosi now claims that she did object later.) We also know that by the time Rodriguez reportedly gave instructions to destroy the CIA tapes, America’s reputation had been severely damaged by the release of other tapes entirely unconnected to the CIA’s or any U.S. efforts to obtain intelligence from captured prisoners. In April 2004, CBS’s newsmagazine “60 Minutes” had aired a handful of inflammatory videos made by out-of-control, low-level American military guards at Abu Ghraib prison.
And look — now we see the Abu Ghraib narrative being repackaged. It is no longer “just a few pranks” or “the equivalent of fraternity hazing.” It is an accident, caused solely by “out of control, low level American military guards” and not a direct result of policy decisions coming from the top of this administration and filtering their way down, as these things always do. So it’s now okay to call Abu Ghraib horrible, because it’s not the fault of anyone who actually matters. Abu Ghraib is a separate matter, unrelated to our government’s position on rendition, or torture by proxy, or the indefinite imprisonment of children without representation or the right of habeas corpus.
Except, of course, that it is related. It is related because we currently have an administration which seems to believe that the world is divided into two groups — “us” and “them” — and that anything done to those in the “them” group is acceptable because “they” are not “us.” It is a reversal of every principle upon which civilized governments have laid their foundations for the last two thousand years, and it is far, far closer to the heart of what fascism is about than eating granola for breakfast is.
It is difficult to imagine what harm might have come from the release of the CIA interrogation tapes — but there is no doubt that had they continued to exist, at some point they would have become public. The tapes’ release would have jeopardized sources and methods used by the CIA, the most serious category of risk to American intelligence. And their release might have led to assassinations of CIA operatives, greater risk for our captured soldiers, and international hand-wringing by our putative allies.
Rodriguez’s lawyer says that his client sought and received legal clearance to destroy the tapes. Even though he is likely to become a scapegoat, what he did was right. He protected not just his men but all of us. I, for one, thank him.
Look at what Chavez is actually saying here. The problem with the release of the torture tapes — I won’t call them interrogation tapes, because that simply is not what they are — is that releasing them would have hurt us. It might, perhaps, have hurt us in substantive ways, but it definitely would have hurt our reputation, and that’s what really matters. It would have led to “international hand-wringing” by our “putative allies.” These other countries are not “with us” unless they support everything we do — they are “putative” allies. If they choose to criticize us in any way at all, they hurt us — and when they hurt us, they stop being with “us” and start being with “them”. It’s not like this is a secret, after all; our president has openly declared this to be the case. It’s just important to remember that once you choose to side with ‘them,’ all rules of conduct can and will be thrown out the window. This is the real message of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. And this is exactly what makes these people evil.
I’m really curious to see if this particular spin on reality manages to catch hold. The wingnut brigade throws a lot of rhetorical spaghetti at the walls because they know that not all of it will stick. So far, the only other person I’ve seen putting this one forth is Tony Blankley — but then again, I’d expect this and worse from him. The question is: Can they make this bit of Newspeak stick? I’d expect to see this meme surfacing somewhere on Fox News in the next three weeks or so — especially if the rumors about other CIA torture tapes that haven’t been destroyed turns out to have any substance.
Oh, and for anyone wondering why so many of us don’t think it worth the effort to engage seriously with people on the other side at this point: Does this answer your question? Or do you still want us to have long, serious, meaningful conversations with people who think it is more important to defend Americans who might be guilty of torture from all possible prosecution than it is to take the steps necessary to insure that Americans aren’t torturing people? What’s the etiquette for a conversation like that, anyway? Will there be scones and tea? Inquiring minds want to know.
well, if you’re going to be picky about it….
which is exactly what Chavez is doing here.
Exactly. She wants to make damn sure the government keeps acting in a way comforting to her – batshit crazy ooogaboogabooga full-on hate-everybody-not-like-me.
Too bad for Linda there are still electronic copies left – CIA boys can’t let good wank material like that go to waste, ya know.
I’m just glad she lost that referendum so that now she can’t be permanently re-elected to be president of Venezuela.
Please note: the “out of control, low lever American military guards” who caused the trouble at Abu Ghraib weren’t the ones who were “enhanced interrogation techniquing” the people imprisoned there; they were those good-for-nothing twerps who documented the enhancements, which led to the shutting down of the enhancement program.
Oh, and if jeopardizing CIA sources is so truly horrific, what does Miss Linda say about Scooter Libby and Bobbi Novak?
Umm, Jillian? That’s not spaghetti …
Vice in defense of extremism is no liberty. It is a requirement.
Any government policy which cannot be explained by a Chuck Norris round house kick to the head followed by a plunge through a window as the building explodes behind you is obviously liberal fascism.
I agree totally…dialogue with the wingnuts is pointless. What is troubling is that the corporatist media gets many of their talking points from the falafelsphere. Driving corporatism out of our government should be our focus. This is why Tweetie and his media sisters are all screeching about Huckabee, Obama and Edwards. They are terrified of an admin that would stand up for the middle class against corporations.
And for the record, having been in the military, I can assure you that lower level people, if they ever got out of control on any issue at all, were very quickly dealt with. It is inconceivable that low level people would take the initiative to do something like torture prisoners all on their own. It’s time to impeach the asshole who approved the torture.
It is inconceivable that low level people would take the initiative to do something like torture prisoners all on their own.
I expect that is a lot of the problems with the tapes – not the torture part, the part showing the guys thumbing the pages of “How To Torture” by David Addington and John Yoo with the “I approve this message” W stamp.
Hey, LittlePig! Good to see ya.
Damn, there’s a lot of horseshit to pick through here; I’ll just parse the most obvious of it:
Looking back, it’s very easy to condemn the extraordinary measures our government took to try to save lives in the wake of 9/11. =
“It’s unreasonable for us to expect our leaders to remain level-headed under trying conditions.”
And, of course, the media and members of Congress have perfect 20/20 hindsight, but the rest of us should show a little restraint when it comes to judging past decisions in light of contemporary misgivings. =
“Just like when a cop shoots a brown guy reaching for his drivers’ license. It’s real easy to nitpick him for plugging the guy with 6 holes, but what if that had been you face-to-face with a scary brown person reaching for his drivers’ license? You’d do the same thing.”
A collective amnesia seems to have set in on what conditions were like in 2002 when those CIA interrogations took place. =
“Most of you would like to forget how you allowed yourselves to be scared shitless by a threat with odds approaching zero of affecting you personally, especially now that you know most of it was bullshit. Apologizing to the people you and we crucified for pointing out the bullshit at the time would be an admission that we were totally pwn3d, so we won’t be doing that.”
Most Americans fully expected that the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon were just the beginning of a terrorist war on American civilians. After all, we were being told by nearly everyone in a position to know that the question was not if we would suffer another major terrorist attack, but when. =
“It was entirely rational to be scared shitless, because the people who we would expect to honestly assess risks and choose the best path forward were lying to us, not honestly assessing risks or looking for the “best path” but rather the easiest route for promoting a pre-determined agenda. Because everyone in a position to know was lying to us, any atrocities resulting from an unquestioning belief in the lies must be exonerated.”
And of course, the entire thrust, which is “you can’t hold people accountable for breaking the law if they thought they had a good reason to break it at the time.” This interpretation of law would probably be most welcomed by the “former nice guys” we got to know a few days back, because it would allow them to extract the poon they are *owed* by any woman to whom they’ve ever felt an attraction. Because, after all, if he thought she was cute, she was being polite to him and he had a raging hard-on, that’s a stressful situation for Mr. Former Nice Guy and whatever means he needs to take to relieve it can later be excused…after all, he is the one in the know about the situation and we should express our contemporary misgivings about the way he handled with restraint.
I totally agree. Huckabee and Edwards scare the crap out of the beltway crowd. It’s not “speaking truth to power” anymore, it’s “speaking truth to money”.
I’m not so sure about Obama in that regard, however.
Thing is, if Chavez were being perfectly honest, her defense of torture would logically lead to her wanting to order a couple of DVD’s of the interrogations, and playing them on her big screen TV with a cool glass of wine and a silk negligee.
Even within her own world-view, the logic doesn’t work.
If you claim Torture is good, it’s a deterrent, it works by leading to good information [all of which i don’t agree with] then you should be fine with the idea that documentation of torture exists. It’s like the Khmer Rouge documented what they did, because for them it was A-OK. So did the Nazis.
If you’re going to praise someone who destroys evidence as a hero, though, you are already stipulating that the evidence existed. And thus – that the torture occured.
As you might suspect, that meme has already surfaced, and naturally verbatim.
20/20 hindsight, collective amnesia, the links to Abu Graib, the whole shinola (or that stuff it is sometimes mistaken for) was dutifully parrotted the other day by a rightie named Shooter over at Glenn’s blog.
This could be still in the dog whistle stage for the moment, but never underestimate the effectiveness of appeals to the inner sadist that lurks within every rightie.
absolutely correct, g.
If it’s defensible, there should be no problem with documenting it and showing it for all to see.
Expecting truth, honesty and reason is a perfectly fascistic point of view.
Next thing you’ll be saying is that mendacity is a bad thing.
“It’s like how when people get married, they promise to love and honor, but you never hear people promising to, say, never use the living room carpet as a toilet. We just automatically assume that sane people will never do these things. Alas, when it comes to the Bush wing of the Republican party, pissing on the rug was the first thing they did.”
Fixed.
When a government believes that it can do whatever it wills it ceases to stand for anything.
When Jose A. Rodriguez Jr. does something that means that it is not illegal.
Whatd’ya expect from the same people who regularly keep us in the same company as Saudi Arabia and China in terms of executions?
‘…international hand-wringing by our putative allies.’
The only thing I’d want to wring is her bloody neck.
I love Bush’s expression in this picture. He has his prune mouth on. It says two things: “if I make myself look like a thug, people afraid of me will take the hint” while simunlaneously he is thinking: I hope they buy this.
You can almost see his eyes shifting from side to side.
This photo should be the official Presidential portrait.
This seems, to me, to be a lot like, a lot like the Ann Coulter effect.
Linda Chavez hasn’t felt impotent, maybe I mean important, for years. What’s a girl to do?
So, of course, to get in the good graces of (i.e. grovel before) her batshit crazy former-masters, she simply has to come up with stuff like this.
You make it seem like she should realize what a flaming-mouthed fascist she is, but you forget how simple-minded she is, how simple-minded we all are.
When your only principle is “Trust GOP leaders” then none of these bloviatings are problematic at all.
We can only wish she is picked up and sent to Guantanamo for a wide variety of techniques which she says aren’t tortuous. A multi-year long stay without trial or lawyer, and a tribunal before evidence she can’t see. That’s unlikely, and even she is smart enough to know that.
It Wasn’t Me:
Bush’s #1 thought is “I hope they buy this.”
I would call Bush an incredibly forthright person. He says exactly what he wants you to believe.
We can only wish she is picked up and sent to Guantanamo for a wide variety of techniques which she says aren’t tortuous. A multi-year long stay without trial or lawyer, and a tribunal before evidence she can’t see. That’s unlikely, and even she is smart enough to know that.
Send Alan Dershowitz with her.
Hey, what happened to my linky?
http://www.spectacle.org/0202/seth.html
“the extraordinary measures our government took to try to save lives in the wake of 9/11. ”
…after ignoring warnings and information leading up to 9-11 that might have prevented it. Oh, and not counting pulling resources out of Afghanistan, where the actual enemy behind 9-11 was, and sending it to Iraq, where it wasn’t.
As usual with these people, what they say is so at odds with the truth, that you have to wonder whether they’re consciously lying, too stupid to know what they’re saying, or so fanatical that they can’t tell the difference.
Well said, Jillian.
Yeah, actually?
Scones and tea WOULD be helpful.
‘Cause when I got frustrated enough with the disingenuous, bad faith arguments and the smug “we’re gonna get away with it yet AGAIN” smirk, I could shove the scones up their nose and waterboard them with the tea.
And if the tea was scalding hot….
mikey
Spaghetti-throwing is even worse than pasta-pushing.
I’d love to hear those tapes, if even half of what Posner claims is on them is true it’ll make it harder for the CIA to keep on covering up and protecting the Saud gang:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gerald-posner/the-cias-destroyed-inter_b_75850.html
The one thing I suspect is that the princes abu Zubaydah really named were a bit higher up than those in the HuffPost’s article, someone high enough to spook the CIA has to be close with Bush / Cheney. Prince Bandar left DC a while back, and Britan’s Blair covered up for Bandar’s BEA corruption investigation – part of haveing a dad in line for the throne.
>>We don’t know exactly what the captured al-Qaida operatives
>>told interrogators — thankfully —
Yeah right, exactly, we do not want to know what those 2 alCIAda members who planed and carried out 9-11 had to say about it — thankfully — and we do not need to ask those 2 to repeat what they said just becuase their tapes were burned either, do we?
Peace
Is it really arguing in bad faith if you do it for a living? The WaPo had a story about the Chavez family industry of right wing shill groups. Her family’s livelihood is built on stuff like:
To them, it’s just business. The truth is irrelevant. Her main point in the current instance is that Rodriguez had the grit to destroy the evidence and protect the company. The rest about torture is just handwaving.
So, what Linda Chavez is saying, is that if somebody is torturing the crap out of you, and, incidentally, videotaping it, the problem isn’t the torturing–it’s the videotaping?
That’s some crappy-ass, warmed -over Nixonian apologia. I remember old farts back in the day arguing that Nixon’s problem was just that he kept careful taped records of his crimes. They weren’t bothered by the crimes, just the actual taping.
The fact is, if only Bush would order all intelligence agencies to destroy all evidence congress has requested, or might request, having anything to do with our hostilities with Iraq, Afghanistan, or Islam in general.
I would like to see our agencies kidnap, torture and kill all of our foreign and domestic enemies such as elected and registered democrats, liberals, progressives, socialists, communists and all the other societal irritants we have mucking up the works. Their survivors should be put to hard labor in defense plants.
Thank you to whoever destroyed those tapes. Please find more and dispose of them to.
Merry Christmas to everyone except liberals who I pray suffer horribly and disappear somehow before the new year.
Peace.
Merry Christmas to everyone except liberals who I pray suffer horribly and disappear somehow before the new year.
Peace.
I think that’s the exact words Jesus used in his Sermon on the Mount.
Is she claiming that torturing Al Qeada suspects is what has prevented another terrorist incident since 9/11?
What prevented attacks between the 1993 bombing and 2001? The Clenis?
I am constantly amazed by the proposition that because stoopid fucking suburban soccer dad or mom was “askeeered” of teh terra that automatically justifies human torture, war crimes, suspension of habeas corpus, overseas gulags, kidnappings and more torture, electronic spying on the entire U.S. population, and the destruction of the United States Constitution.
I would like to see our agencies kidnap, torture and kill all of our foreign and domestic enemies such as elected and registered democrats, liberals, progressives, socialists, communists and all the other societal irritants we have mucking up the works. Their survivors should be put to hard labor in defense plants.
It seems like this sort of thing has been done before, but I can’t remember exactly who did it. Hmm.
Maybe I’ll ask the whale.
Doug, in order to defend our Constitution, we had to destroy it.
/wingnut
P.S. What is really discouraging here is how enormous that contingent of /wingnut has grown. It can’t happen here.
I notice that no one has yet mentioned the episode of “South Park” in which a local priest…
Oh well, here’s the transcript:
Read them their Miranda rights?
That is comedy gold. Nothing the world needs in 2007 more than a blast of the old “Impeach Earl Warren” magic. Heavens, next they’ll be allowing teh colored folk to drink from the soda fountains and letting coal miners form teh evil unionz 111!!!
Suzii,
Oh, and if jeopardizing CIA sources is so truly horrific, what does Miss Linda say about Scooter Libby and Bobbi Novak?
Yeah, Val came to mind pretty quick while reading this drivel, but never mind that. She’s one of “them”, don’tcha know? Her hubby said bad things. Now they are consigned to Hell.
LittlePig,
“How To Torture” by David Addington and John Yoo with the “I approve this message” W stamp.
My God, there’s a photoshop in there somewhere…
zsa,
Huckabee and Edwards scare the crap out of the beltway crowd.
Wow, the idea of a Huckabee-Edwards general election must have a certain faction breech-shitting kittens by the dozen. I’m sort of liking the idea myself.
stryx said,
Alas, when it comes to the Bush wing of the Republican party, pissing on the rug is the first thing they do every day.
Fixed some more.
I really have to wonder sometimes. Can these people actually come up with this level of insanity each on their own, or is there some sick soul spewing out filth as wretched as possible and then just handing it over to as many bylines as possible to give the impression of larger acceptance? How have we gotten to the point where nobody just turns around and says “You’re fucking crazy. Shut up.”?
Sigh.
ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®©,
Ah, Mr. Jessup. Now there’s a book what needs to be put in the forefront again. Last time I picked it up, it was the concept of “Liberty Cabbage” that struck me. I mean, damn…
Another good piece of reading from the same year…
A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small “inside” group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.
Justme, that does sound sadly, familiar.
Panama. Tapes. CIA won’t do this.
When the CIA tortures is there a tape? Probably, but if you watch Jack Bauer you find out there is also a medical doctor supervising or a psychiatrist. Who were these?
Yes, Jack had to do some field work, but it’s all supervised when not an emergency.
I wish I had bought stock in false dichotomies in August 2001.
By the way, is there a wingnut alive who can argue anything without a heaping helping of logical fallacies? Do they think that honest decent people don’t notice that everything they say is transparent bullshit? Or do they not care what people think unless said people are stupid enough to fall for this horseshit and, hence, stupid enough to vote Republican?
What about the tapes of all those folks the CIA waterboarded and got NO “useful” information? What about tapes of people being waterboarded who weren’t terrorists, just people in the wrong place at the wrong time? How about we get to listen to the torture of innocents? Then the bullshit line about how we haven’t been attacked since 9/11 suddenly becomes a lot less like a trump card and a lot more for the justification of totalitarianism than it is.
“It’s just important to remember that once you choose to side with ‘them,’ all rules of conduct can and will be thrown out the window.”
And this is, in a nutshell, the very purpose of torture.
ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®©,
Do read the whole thing, if you haven’t already. Also, keep in mind the author, who was, at the time, the most decorated fighting man in the history of the United States including two Medals of Honor. He was also the guy that the capitalists looking to stage a Coup against F.D.R. fingered for figurehead. They saw a guy who could hold military support in the face of a takeover. They missed the whole “principled patriot” aspect of his character, however, and he dropped dime on them. Congress, of course, did virtually nothing other than telling them that that wasn’t very nice, now was it? Some things never change.
I think the purpose of torture is to terrorize (!) everyone. Nowadays most any American standing in line at an airport is/should be anxious that s/he will be pulled aside for no reason, interrogated for hours, placed in chains and put in custody without access to a lawyer. And then, possibly, released with a vague apology. Or perhaps NOT. So far these things have “only” happened to Foreigners (except for Jose Padilla), but WE KNOW: I could be next! Perhaps for posting on this Blog.
“We don’t know exactly what the captured al-Qaida operatives told interrogators — thankfully — but we do know that there hasn’t been another al-Qaida attack in the United States in more than six years.”
Poor, delusional woman. She’ll probably never understand that the real reason the the U.S. hasn’t been attacked in six years is because of the protective spell I cast in my kitchen on September 12th, 2001 – using corn starch, baking powder, common table salt – and goat’s blood!
The main point of this argument is so backwards it’s like she was typing while looking into a mirror. The meme they are trying to push – “if we didn’t destroy this evidence it would weaken our position” – could be used to justify obstruction of justice for ANY crime.
What’s sad is that this argument entirely begs the question of why this evidence would make us look bad and the obvious answer – because it’s the wrong thing to do. Watergate, Iran-contra, the wmd lie, and Lewinski were all things that made America look bad, is that reason enough to cover them up?
What frightens me the most is that the right thinks that this, the most callous and Machiavellian of all arguments, is what’s going to resonate with the American people.
Once again the new standard of standards is emphasized.
There are no standards which you uphold simply because you admire those standards.
There are only standards set by the nobility of your worst imagined opponent.
So if you are interviewing a captured prisoner, there is no reason that you would act honorably simply because you want to be a person who behaves honorably.
You simply calculate that if this were some sort of vastly evil, tremendously dangerous being in front of you, you might be justified in behaving ghastly, and therefore you have your own moral permission to act in a ghastly manner in any circumstance.
If you take tests in schools, if you believe that someone else in the class may be cheating, and you can cheat without getting caught, then of course you don’t act honorably. You do whatever you think your worst opponent might do.
If you are prosecuting an accused criminal in the US (someone still lucky enough to get a trial), you are completely free to fabricate evidence or threaten or bribe witnesses or keep crucial evidence of innocence hidden from the defense and the judge, because you imagine that the worst possible defendant might have done horrible things and therefore this trial deserves no better.
“What frightens me the most is that the right thinks that this, the most callous and Machiavellian of all arguments, is what’s going to resonate with the American people.”
What frightens me the most is that there is a good chance they are correct.
Quite astounding how people like this Chavez woman live with their heads up their arse. Piss off lady cause your full of it. Cheer
“t’s like how when people get married, they promise to love and honor, but you never hear people promising to, say, never use the living room carpet as a toilet.”
More to the point, imagine the looks on the faces at the wedding when the happy couple vows not to hurl their wedding china at each other, and cut each other with the shards.
“We don’t know exactly what the captured al-Qaida operatives told interrogators — thankfully…”
“What about the tapes of all those folks the CIA waterboarded and got NO “useful” information? What about tapes of people being waterboarded who weren’t terrorists, just people in the wrong place at the wrong time? How about we get to listen to the torture of innocents? Then the bullshit line about how we haven’t been attacked since 9/11 suddenly becomes a lot less like a trump card and a lot more for the justification of totalitarianism than it is.”
Um, that’s WHY she’s thankful. She’s a vicarious sadist who doesn’t want the false basis for her justification for torture revealed.
Hmmm… there were no torture attacks between the one planned during the administration of G.W. Bush, and the start of impeachment against Clinton. Tell us, o great solon Chavez, what does that imply to you?
Hey, we didn’t have to torture Gary to get him to admit that he’s the same guy as “snoozer.”
The other day I was watching TV and I saw Frank Gaffney on Hardball. I changed the channel to something like Discovery and he was on that also, blabbering about treaties.
His Hardball argument was that we needed a “second opinion” on the NIE report, because the older report “got it right” and this one didn’t. And by “got it right” of course he meant it agreed with thim. It was so moronic that at the end of the segment Chris Matthews paid him the backhanded complement of being something like a “grizzled warrior for the right”, AKA partisan hack who will say anything. Everyone else was rationally discussing to some degree and he was just blowing smoke.
On treaties on the other channel he argued that we should not join a treaty because other countries don’t take their treaty agreements seriously. Coming from Frank Gaffney that’s quite rich.
—
We have a very serious problem in that for the most part Democrats and liberals argue at least somewhat rationally, while Republicans and conservatives are only about winning. They will say anything, which is why their arguments are so full of logical fallacies and incoherencies. They are playing an entirely different sport.
Dialup sucks. Happy holidays.
Gaffney makes the batshit insane look like solons of wisdom.
Last year he was on some gab fest with Glenn Greenwald, and he (Gaffney) was asserting that the US military did indeed find WMDs in Iraq. Greenwald was all like, “WTF!?” And Gaffney was all like, “Did too!”
Chavez was a questiion (or literally “answer”) I missed on Jeopardy. I guessed Sanchez, probably subconsciously thinking of the Dirty variety which is what it feels like youg ot after reading one of Ms. Chavez’s column.
Why would al-Qaeda plan another massive terror attack when they got exactly what they wanted from the first one? (Carried out during the presidency of Great and Fearless Leader George W. Bush, I would like to point out to my conservative firends who seem to have forgotten much that is relevant about Sept. 11, 2001.)
I’d like to think the Bush Administration got played. But I think it’s much more likely that the American people – especially the sheep-like fools who voted Republican – are the ones who got played.
Despite how much the Republicans talk it up as a good thing, I personally don’t like it that we have become a Nation of Bed-Wetters.
“I would like to see our agencies kidnap, torture and kill all of our foreign and domestic enemies such as elected and registered democrats, liberals, progressives, socialists, communists and all the other societal irritants we have mucking up the works. Their survivors should be put to hard labor in defense plants.”
Hey, Fake Gary No.94, Linda no like you messin’ wit’ her wingnut welfare racket, you dig?
Keep it up, and she’ll have YOU rendited to Gitmo for “questioning”, “assisted” by a taser applied to, well, you know. Funny how you fascists never ever ever believe that you can become a target of the very same tactics you demand, with lavishly sick pleasure, we apply to anyone you happen not to like.
Gavin brought up the idea not too long ago that for the people who inhabit what passes for “the Right” nowadays, the concept, “argument in good faith” might as well be a text written in Minoan Linear A.
IMHO you’re absolutely correct. When these people say that they’re fighting a culture war they DO mean war – as in all’s fair .. as in the enemy must be defeated … unconditionally … crushed. The common thread at all the battle fronts (science, the right to choose, gay rights, rights for the disenfranchised and least among us, social security, the civil rights movement in general) in this declared civil war is a desire to strangle or drown all facets of liberal thought and impose a reactionary authoritarian regime to keep individual liberties at bay. The reactionary right is antithetical to the Constitution, or at least the parts pertaining to civil liberties, or at least the idea that civil liberties cannot be arbitrarily infringed upon (i.e., use the coercive power of the state to silence those that they oppose).
Of course, the modern “conservative” Republicans will disagree among themselves as to what the best form of oppression is, theocracy, secular totalitarianism, fascism, etc., but if they can hash out the terms of a merger and reach a power sharing agreement, there’s no doubt left in my mind that the result will be to push a complete rollback of liberal democracy – the original foundation (or, shining an ironic flashlight, original intent) of our nation.
Polite discussion is no longer a viable tool against the modern right in America because anybody left on the “other side” will bury, as best they can, both the message and the messenger. The reasonable men and women of the right have been shunted aside by the radical modern conservative movement – witness John Dean and Bruce Fine – in favor of the buffoon brigade of Jonah, Hannity, Beck, Coulter, et. al. Someone may adamantly disagree with the deans and the Fines on specific issues and overall ideology but they are taking a stand for constitutional leveling of the playing field.
This desire to rise up in defense of our most basic civil liberties is, again IMHO, the basis of the Ron Paul temptation and is certainly the reason that I’ve thrown my support to Senator Dodd. I look forward to the day that civil discussion can return as a viable political tool but I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
These people aren’t fighting the hippies or the 60’s, they’re fighting against the enlightenment/liberal idea that even the DFHs have a voice at the table.
Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. Now, time for the grocery.
It’s like how when people get married, they promise to love and honor, but you never hear people promising to, say, never use the living room carpet as a toilet.
That rug really tied the room together…
The tapes’ release would have jeopardized sources and methods used by the CIA, the most serious category of risk to American intelligence. And their release might have led to assassinations of CIA operatives, greater risk for our captured soldiers, and international hand-wringing by our putative allies.
Paging Robert Novak…Robert Novak, white courtesy phone…
…dutifully parrotted the other day by a rightie named Shooter over at Glenn’s blog.
Yeah, shitter’s been the resident blast-fax troll almost since Glennzilla’s had a blog, certainly dating back to the old Unclaimed Territory. I used to know what the official wingnut line was just by seeing what that fuckwit vomited on to Glenn’s comment threads.
Since GG’s move to Salon, shitter’s pretty much been phoning it in, though. The comment system at UT made it easier to spew than the one at Salon, and trolls (other than our own) don’t seem to be terribly ambitious.
“might as well be a text written in Minoan Linear A.”
People are staring at me because I burst out laughing at that analogy…
blathering, drooling, crapulous sack of dishonesty. Add simpleminded and thoughtless to this list and you’d have a sandwich board for her.
I’m sure she also equates waterboarding with “swimming” like the rest of the clowns on the right who fail to think, visualize, or do any research.
I was kidding about the goat’s blood. I like goats. A lot.
The truth is that after 9/ii the mere thought of terrorists made me piss myself. But then I started washing my hands every 15 minutes, counting every step when climbing stairs, and touching every parking meter as I walk down the street.
The result? No terrorist attacks in 6 years!!!
(I still piss myself when I think of terrorists, but all my friends do too. I think it’s normal.)
Stop the Presses on Pantload’s Book!
J. Edgar Hoover, Man of the Left:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071222/ap_on_go_ot/hoover_mass_arrests
Why don’t we stop this pretense that these wackballs on the Right are actually sane enough to be walking the streets without being cossetted in comfy straight-jackets? They have gotten increasingly psychotic (what else can you call it?) as the Bush years have gone on, which, I guess, is example enough on why they shouldn’t simply be handed the keys to our government (and all of its resources) ever again. They should be rooted out of their paranoiac “war-on-terror” basements all over the USA and pumped full of anti-psychotic drugs until they stop frothing about how righteous it is for us to torture Afghan shepherds whilst in the next moment, howling that “We don’t torture!!!”. Repeatedly listening to this shit in our society (without talking heads pointing out that this fracture of thinking is the very definition of insanity) is going to eventually drive sane people insane, and I think we’ve all had our fill of that, haven’t we?
Sooner or later, humans are going to have to realize that this kind of behavior is destructive to civilization and needs to be treated.
But, Jillian, it WAS done in good faith…
See, when you put on a ski-mask and rob a convenience store, you know you are doing something that you shouldn’t be doing, you are just hoping not to get caught. Nixon is another example; he, too, knew very well that what he was doing was bad…
These folks know “in their heart” that they are doing the right thing, and all written laws (Constitution, Geneva Convention, etc.) are just a nuisance interfering with what is truly Teh Right Thing. I don’t have doubts about their sincerity, it is sanity they are lacking…
IF ANYONE WANTS TO CUT THROUGH ALL THE RIGHT WING BULL ABOUT CHAVEZ…READ THIS ENGAGING ARTICLE:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/12/AR2007081201371.html
Human have realized this stuff is destructive.
Now, the humans have to convince the conservatives.
Republican newspeak differs from classical fascist newspeak, I do not deny this. Indeed, it is central to your point.
I’m guessing with this post, you’ve gained an understanding of just why Goldberg wrote his screed comparing liberals to fascists.
Well, done.
“Twisted” is exactly the right word for the Chavez spewage. I just about fell out of my chair when she stated, “It is difficult to imagine what harm might have come from the release of the CIA interrogation tapes — but there is no doubt that had they continued to exist, at some point they would have become public. The tapes’ release would have jeopardized sources and methods used by the CIA, the most serious category of risk to American intelligence. And their release might have led to assassinations of CIA operatives, greater risk for our captured soldiers…”
On the other hand, releasing the name of an undercover CIA operative who works on nuclear proliferation…well, that’s not so bad after all…
gawd almighty! I am a Coloradoan, and I apologize. Marilyn Musgrave..Tom Tancredo..Major Chivington & Sand Creek..Bill Armstrong..the fucking Ludlow Massacre..and now Linda Chavez. Will it never end?
At one time, our governor’s name was Love…
Great. As if any of you way too perceptive (and tolerant) snarkers, couldn’t guess, it’s blogspot.com. Oy….
personal promotion: check out my son’s really cool blog:
secretguinea.blogspot.com
(hope I did that right)
Ah, poor Linda. Her star has faded since St. Ron used to pimp her out as an exemplar of the Rising Hispanic Conservative Majority, back in the 80’s.
I used to kind of worry about that paradigm, but Pete Wilson pretty much flushed any possibility of it away a decade ago.
Sure, blame the janitor!
[…] Weather: 9/11 commissioners say they were conned by the the CIA. Naturally, there are denizens of Wingnuttia who claim we should ‘thank’ them for destroying the […]
Linda Chavez will have to find someone else for her medals and the world needs more immunity from prosecution for whistle blowers:
THE CIA chief who ordered the destruction of secret videotapes recording the harsh interrogation of two top Al-Qaeda suspects has indicated he may seek immunity from prosecution in exchange for testifying before the House intelligence committee.
Jose Rodriguez, former head of the CIA’s clandestine service, is determined not to become the fall guy in the controversy over the CIA’s use of torture, according to intelligence sources.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3087293.ece
Oooh, this is just too good, someone refusing to be a scapegoat even for a nice shiney medal!
Another link for the same article:
http://www.cageprisoners.com/articles.php?id=22864
Johnson says Rodriguez got his fingers burnt during the Iran-contra scandal while working for the CIA in Latin America in the 1980s. Even then he sought authorisation from senior officials. But when summoned to the FBI for questioning, he was told Iran-contra was “political – get your own lawyer”.
wheels within wheels, bendreth.
What if you’re wrong about the expectations of Americans? What if a majority, having been fed decades of that ticking time-bomb, maverick cop breaking the rules story expect torture?
A crapulous sack of dishonesty pretty well sums it up.
Chavez??? Rodriguez???
What part of ILLEGAL DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND????????
[Sorry. Wrong thread.]
Wow… how old is that picture at the top?
Look how much Brusch has aged since then…
Let me defend the decision to destroy the tape.
As Chavez noted, we suffer from collective amnesia about what happened in the aftermath of 9/11. Unfortunately, we still remember waaaay too much, so the healing process of the amnesia has to be helped.
Otherwise, what is the alternative? Sooner or later, someone would leak the tape. Agents seen in those tapes would instantly gain a cult status, and whatever is seen on those tapes would be pronounced just and good, and I am afraid that we are not talking about water boarding here. Water boarding was conceded as defensible method that fits within “we do not torture” claim, and the secret tapes almost surely have much more grizzly content. And a certain category of torture enthusiasts would be getting orgasm by watching them again and again, living them with no body fluids to share with co-enthusiasts of the fair sex (like Linda Chavez).
Hey, if I can watch 2 Girls 1 Cup for free, I want those tapes on the Intart00bz NOW!
It’s my right as an American! Pr0n 24/7 F0R FR33!!!1!!
The tapes’ release would have jeopardized sources and methods used by the CIA, the most serious category of risk to American intelligence. And their release might have led to assassinations of CIA operatives, greater risk for our captured soldiers, and international hand-wringing by our putative allies.
“Plame”, shitforbrains, “Plame”.
“It’s the sort of basic expectation your average sane person has of their government.” Fantastic line, Jillian. FYI, I’ve been keeping track of various government disappointments over here.
[…] complete denial. They’ll do anything to avoid thinking about what’s actually going on – from setting up the most ridiculous false dichotomies, to saying everyone’s doing it to parsing into […]
looks like they’re throwing jose rodriguez under the bus :
CYA for all the top guys.
Perhaps the “collective amnesia” here might be caused by people erasing videotapes?
Not to mention a tenfold increase in paper-shredding, the invention of new arbitrary categories of secrecy, etc.?
“Looking back, it’s very easy to condemn the extraordinary measures our government took to try to save lives [EXCEPT FOR AROUND 3800 AMERICAN SOLIDERS AND TENS OF THOUSANDS OF IRAQIS] in the wake of 9/11.”
May be they should use the same type of treatment against all those illegal aliens who come into the USA from Mexico as they pose a far greater threat to us, our wives and children, and our civilization.
After all what will happen if we don’t have well manicured lawns?
Just asking?
Neocons conflated the “success” of 19 individuals (mostly Saudi) into a “Global War on Terror”.
But it was just 19 terrorists who found a hole in US security on one day in 2001 after years of trying.
We only had to fix the hole, and catch the perpetrators.
The GWOT is a neocon fraud.