Fun With Other People’s Religions (Pt. 1)
We think we know which Beth this is, but there are a lot of right-wing Beths running around these days, and each is liable to turn up at about a dozen overlapping blogs, with Beths commenting on posts by different Beths, and so forth.
This particular Beth, in any case, has found a new way to oppose the International Muslim Conspiracy — i.e., to assist America’s permanent and unchanging right-wing moron demographic in blasting irrational, pinheaded anger at everyone in the world except themselves, with the prime religious target, this time, being Muslims instead of Jews (or Catholics and The Vatican).
Well, it’s not exactly a new way, but Beth shows extra brio by skipping over the actual Koran and ‘exposing’ out-of-context passages from other Islamic religious texts. For instance, here’s the latest proof of the depravity of all Muslims, yanked OMG-style from a Sunni hadith, i.e. a collection of oral commentary considered uncanonical by Shi’a:
Myth Fact Islam: Religion of peace. Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 267: Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, “Khosrau will be ruined, and there will be no Khosrau after him, and Caesar will surely be ruined and there will be no Caesar after him, and you will spend their treasures in Allah’s Cause.” He called, “War is deceit’.
Tafsir
Myth Fact Islam: Religion of peace. Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 392: Narrated Abu Huraira:
While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, “Let us go to the Jews” We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, ”If you embrace Islam, you will be safe.You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle.”
Tafsir
These are indeed bone-chilling statements, especially if you’re Khosrau (?) or a devout Jew in Arabia circa 630 AD. Of course, since 9/11 we’ve all become Khosrau (?) and/or a devout Jew in Arabia circa 630 AD, or something. Or perhaps we’re Caesar. But let’s just leave that one alone for the time being.
As with all known members of this particular interlocking axis of whoopingly-insane right-blogs (who are these people, and why are they taking up half the Internet?) there’s stunningly irrational stuff everywhere you look, such that it’s impossible to quote one thing over another without feeling like you’ve trod a diamond into the carpet. One strongly suspects, for instance, that the ’email received from a Gold Star Mother’ referenced at the above link is actually one of those mysterious Snopes-style emails that arrive with 150K of quoted text saying “OMG U WONT BELEIVE THIS 1 FORWARD IT 2 EVERY1 U KNOW!!!” and with two hundred AOL and Wal-Mart Connect addresses in the cc bar. It certainly wouldn’t be unprecedented.
And yet, one good turn deserves another. It is perhaps time the world knew the truth about so-called Christians and their global conspiracy to dominate the world, et cetera, and for our first exposé of this spawning-religion of terror-criminals and criminal terrorists, we turn to the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, a work roughly contemporaneous with the Gospel of Luke that enjoyed great popularity in the Middle Ages, despite not making the cut for the actual Bible. Here we learn that the young Jesus was a child murderer:
| Myth | Fact |
| Christianity: Religion of Love. | Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Chapter 4, Lines 1-4 :
Narrated Thomas: Next, he was going through the village again and a running child bumped his shoulder. Becoming bitter, Jesus said to him, “You will not complete your journey.” Immediately, he fell down and died. Then, some of the people who had seen what had happened said, “Where has this child come from so that his every word is a completed deed?” And going to Joseph, the parents of the one who had died found fault with him. They said, “Because you have such a child, you are not allowed to live with us in the village, or at least teach him to bless and not curse. For our children are dead!” |
| Apocrypha |
WTF?! Truly the essence of Christianity is here revealed, indicting all followers of this lunatic terror cult.
| Myth | Fact |
| Christianity: Religion of Love. | Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Chapter 5, Lines 1-6 :
Narrated Thomas: And taking his child aside, he warned him, saying, “Why are you doing these things? These people are suffering and they hate us and cause trouble for us.” Then, Jesus said, “I know that the words I speak are not mine. Nevertheless, I will be silent for your sake, but these people will bear their punishment.” And immediately his accusers became blind. When they saw what he had done, they were extremely afraid and did not know what to do. And they talked about him, saying, “Every word he speaks, good or evil, is an event and becomes a miracle.” When Joseph saw that Jesus had done this, however, he was outraged and took his ear and pulled it extremely hard. Then, the child became angry and said to him, “It is enough for you to seek and not find, but too much for you to act so unwisely. Do you not know that I am not yours? Do not trouble me.” |
| Apocrypha |
Here we find a true accounting of the innate depravity of Jesus’s teachings, as Thomas exhorts his bloodthirsty followers to lash out at others from blind pique, indeed to embrace evil, and to accept no responsibility for their actions.
Oh, and there are lots more of these historical Christian texts as well, including some really gay ones, as in g-a-y. From them, much is indeed to be learned about this strange religion now so often in the news.
Then there’s the Old Testament, a gold mine of misogyny, genocidal war, and overall depravity.
Here I am still trying to figure out how to italicize things on this site, and Gavin reproduces this groovy semi-3-D chart. Excellent!
Don’t forget the musicals, like “The Last Temptation of Christ”
But that’s not fair! You’re selectively quoting random texts to justify your preconceived notion! Intellectual dishionesty!
But Muslims, don’t even get me started. One word: Dark skin.
Then there’s the Old Testament, a gold mine of misogyny, genocidal war, and overall depravity.
And talk about an eclectic selection of improvised weapons!
Killing an army with the jawbone of an ass? Righteous, dood!
Where the hell did he get the jawbone of an ass? Was it something he carried around with him? Or did he say “oh shit, I need a weapon right now” and there was an ass standing innocently by and he ripped it’s jawbone right out?
I never understood that. Surely there was more effective clubs laying around to be pressed into service. I’m gonna take the position samson was just showing off at that point…
mikey
Once again, I blame the preview for any mistakes that it forced me to commit.
I am so dressing up as a Sufi mystic and trick-or-treating at Beth’s house for Halloween.
You got it backwards, Mikey. It’s not that we start with the army and move from there to the jawbone, it’s that Samson said “oh, neat! ass jawbone!” and picked it up, and then we had army problems. See, it all makes sense when you look at it that way.
I love all of the wingnuts who love to argue in public forums with actual Muslims about whether or not the Koran requires them to hate and murder people.
It’s like, dude. If someone says that their religion requires them to be peaceful and tolerant, let them go with that.
Oh dear. I expect the thing called Beth or something like her to very loudly and with great insistence, totally fail to grasp the meaning and intent behind this post, very very soon.
Shorter Legalize:
Boy those trolls should be here any minute now…. I say THOSE TROLLS should be here ANY MINUTE NOW………..pssst trolls! you’re on!
“It’s like, dude. If someone says that their religion requires them to be peaceful and tolerant, let them go with that.”
But…but…but…that’s what the Islamofascists say to throw you off their track. They tell you that they are the “Religion of Peace” and then one day BAM!!! Sharia Law and women in Buqas.
*shifty eyes*
Khosrau was the Shah of Persia during the lifetime of Mohammed. At the time of his crowning, the Persians (who were Zoroastrians at the time) were engaged in a long, mutually ruinous struggle with the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire. The Caesar referred to was probably the Emperor Heraclius. The struggle left both states exhausted and ripe for conquest. It should be noted that there were no Khosraus after the Khosrau II, due to the Arab conquest. However, the Eastern Roman Empire continued to exist until 1453, when it was conquered by the Turks.
*burqas
Damnit…
I hope you have your troll-proof boots on, Despondant Cantabridgian. ‘Cause you know they can smell this one.
It’s quiet in here…
Too quiet…
Lest we forget the disobedience of Samuel.
Can I just say that I love the infancy gospels? They make Jesus seem like Billy Mumy’s character from that one “Twilight Zone” episode.
Also, if I recall correctly Jesus eventually brought that kid he killed back to life. So your quote-mining is– gasp!– dishonest! Just like the people who quote-mine Islamic texts for– oh wait, I get it.
Also…if we are going to take the tighty-righties lead (I feel dirty just even implying that…yuck) and take everything from religious texts literally, then the End of Days as told in Revelation is going to be infinitely trippier than Pink Floyd’s The Wall…with the all the Whore of Babylon nonsense and trumpets from the sky and cups pouring out and the gnashing of teeth and what-not.
I can’t wait. It’s going to be like college ALL over again. But…without all the class skipping.
Religious Theologians may cann him John from Patmos…I call him “Captain Trips.”
Duuuuuuuuuude.
*call
I can’t spell my way out of a paper bag today. Sheesh!!
Personally, I like Lamb, the Gospel According to Biff, Christ’s Childhood Pal.
I prefer my religious reading to come with Yetis.
After a little reflection, I think John from Patmos may have been the GodFather of Heaxy Metal music. I mean…woman and the dragon…the beast from the sea…beast from the sea with the horns and what not…very metal. Iron Maiden’s Steve Harris is jealous.
Psalm 144:
“Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:”
Can I just say that I love the infancy gospels?
No. ZAP!!! YOU’RE A GOAT!! HAHAHA!
Let us not forget Genesis 38:9
I hate it when my fingers fight. I’ve been negotiating a peace agreement between my left index and right pinky, but right middle just launched a preemptive strike against left ring, and the thumbs keep violating the ceasefire.
I’m getting some diplomatic support from some of my toes and my scrotum, but there’s no news yet.
Dammit…
mikey
All this religious/heavy metal talk has made my umlat return. *GRINS*
I think it might be because I also got Guitar Hero III over the weekend. There really is nothing like “playing” Slayer’s Reign in Blood on a small plastic faux-guitar. I am so fuckin’ metal.
Mad metal, Clütch!
This site seems to have forgotten that only Islam is violent.
Why do they hate America?
I once went to see a female weightlifter/evangelist speak at a skid-row ministry. After doing her thing she talked about Jesus running down to hell with a flaming sword and letting souls out. “No he didn’t” yelled some of the bums who weren’t scarfing down their free hot-dog and coffee. “YES HE DID!” yelled the evangelist, and since she’d already smashed a block of ice with her forehead in the name of Christ people stopped arguing.
They make Jesus seem like Billy Mumy’s character from that one “Twilight Zone” episode.
edgyspice, dammit, stop stealing my posts. Actually, it’s better that you wrote it, since I couldn’t remember Billy Mumy’s name.
Then, the child did become angry and said unto him, “Thou art a bad man! A very bad man! And I shall wish thee into the field wherein corn groweth”. And all were filled with awe, for they knew not yet what corn was.
Saying “Happy Holidays” makes the Baby Jesus cry, then blind you, then kill you, then resurrect you so he can blind you some more.
Call me when they get on the subject of the International Werewolfian Conspiracy to Eat our Children.
Oooh…. That was a good Twilight Zone Episode! I remember reading the short story it is based on when I was a kid and it was scary as hell. “It is a Good Life.” by Jerome Bixby.
What he did was wicked …, so the Lord put him to death
That’s failing to get his sister-in-law pregnant that was death-worthy. Not diddling her in the first place. That verse always scared the shit out of me as a child.
Trolls won’t get home from school until after 3pm. Also, they’ve got a lot on their minds besides S,N! today…trick or treating!
Yeah, that’s pretty bad. Take out the parts about letting them sell their stuff leave in peace, then add some stuff about burning their synagogues and forcing them into slavery and he’d sound a bit like this guy.
@ Sophist, FCD:
And what a day to point out that guy… today’s Reformation Day, which can either be looked at as one of the things that loosened the Catholic Church’s iron grip on Europe or caused much sectarian violence of various types, or both.
Dude, I’m so fucked! Fuck! Game over, man!
Psalm 144:
“Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:”
Thus making Hairy Psalms?
Sorry, had to say it.
t4toby: “Lamb”/the Gospel According to Biff is indeed the bestest gospel of Jesus EVAR!
“It’s a good thing you did that, Jesus. It’s a real good thing.”
Indeed, CG58, in-deed.
Heh heh heh…he said hairy psalms…heh heh heh…
You guys are gonna get it, I’m tellin’.
Here’s my personal fave, right from the Old Testament (Hosea 13:15-16):
Ouchie.
since she’d already smashed a block of ice with her forehead in the name of Christ people stopped arguing.
Ya know, I might not’ve stopped going to church when I was a boy had there been more preachers smashing blocks of ice with their forheads. And cause this little nugget of wisdom never fails to tickle the hell out of me, y’all do know Anne Rice of Interview With a Vampire fame found Jesus a few years ago. Apparently, he was in a goth bar in New Orleans. Anyhow, she’s quit writing vaugely homoerotic vampire tales and is now chronicling the Adventures Of Young Jesus Christ, using non-cannonical books like the above Infant Gospel.
I find that funny as hell. Apparently, I’m the only one. But come on…Anne Rice writing about a young, teenage Jesus at the Library of Alexandria (and other places). That’s funny.
who are these people, and why are they taking up half the Internet?
Y’know, it’d be all right if they just kept to their side of the internet. But they keep hogging the covers and farting in our direction and . . .
OK, I really don’t like that metaphor so I’ll stop now.
dutch oven?
Hot box?
I’ve been reading the Book of Jeremiah lately, and I finally put my finger on one of the things that bothers me about the God of the Old Testament: His faulty judgment!
I think He chose the wrong people. The good folks of Judah don’t seem to be very loyal or smart. In the context of the Bible, the exact same people who saw the miracle of the plagues against Pharoah AND the parting of the Red Sea don’t believe in YHVH’s powers and start worshipping … a golden calf. It happens over and over again. YHVH gives them a nice little cottage kingdom on the coast, and they disobey His laws, they marry foreign women, they neglect the tabernacle, they put meat and cheese on the same plate, they stop executing people who do yard work on the Sabbath. And so YHVH has to punish them in order to save them. The Old Testament basically ends with the coming of Nebuchadrezzer and his Babylonians and the final dismemberment of the kingdom of Judah.
And YHVH did it to them because they couldn’t keep His rules.
What with all the Amelkhites and Hittites and Canaanites and Luddites and Randites and Janeites and such, you would think YHVH could have found SOMEBODY for His chosen people who could keep a few silly rules. I guess, like many people in positions of power, He couldn’t admit he was wrong. Maybe He thought obedient times for the Jews were just around the corner.
I guess you have to make do with the chosen people you have instead of the chosen people you WISH you had.
The real lesson of the Old Testament? Don’t be hasty in choosing Your people.
she’d already smashed a block of ice with her forehead in the name of Christ people stopped arguing.
I always liked watching The Power Team, those guys on TBN that ripped phonebooks in half for Jesus. Maybe if they had Magnus Ver Magnusson, I would have listened.
Posting from some Christian religious docs, such as the many “Burn the witches!” polemics including the Malleus Maleficarum, could be interesting.
And anyway, the title is in Latin, and sounds totally badass.
Can I just say that I love the infancy gospels? They make Jesus seem like Billy Mumy’s character from that one “Twilight Zone” episode.
I was thinking of the Star Trek episode where they find that kid named Charlie who makes Uhura dumb because she keeps singing some song he hates. And he kills some random crew member for making fun of him and laughing. All of it undone, of course, by the super aliens who gave the kid his powers.
Did you know that if you read this thread and play Workshop of the Telescopes at the same time, Clütch414’s comment is timed just right to coincide with the guitar solo?
Freaky, man.
Christians have this teflon deniability thing going on.
Anything terrible in the OT has been superseded by the NT. It doesn’t count. The good things from the OT still count, but the bad things don’t.
All the horrible things that Christians have done over the years … a long, long list … are simply the actions of people who do not understand the true meaning of Christianity. So the bad people who have killed, enslaved, and tortured in the name of Christ are not really Christians, see? They just thought they were Christians.
And anytime a good Christian leader gets caught “internalizing” some other guy’s baloney pony, or embezzling huge sums of cash from gullible old ladies, it’s because all men are weak and all men are sinners and it would be hypocritical for us to call them … well … hypocrites.
See how that works? Not too different than the infallibility of movement conservatism, come to think of it.
hey, Butthead, checkitout…they’ve been smited…huh huh huh…
I believe that I am the victim of identity theft, because someone keeps posting comments that look exactly like they come from my computer, but I deny ever writing them. However, said identity theft isn’t as bad as this one time I was attacked by little yellow people, who totally had knives, but they didn’t really cut me, until later that is.
Yeah. That’s the ticket.
HDB, “Tyranny and Mutation” could be a concept album for the Bush years. They even have their own little question mark swastika thing.
Or was WotT on the first album and I’m thinking of something like “Baby Ice Dog”? The drugs have washed away so much of my youth …
To sum up Gavin’s summary of Beth’s summary of the ah??d?th — islamic heavy-metal bands have a great source of bad-ass imagery for their lyrics and album-cover art. Whether this will make up for all the chicks having to wear burqas at the live concerts remains to be seen.
So the bad people who have killed, enslaved, and tortured in the name of Christ are not really Christians, see? They just thought they were Christians.
Future Christians: Ok, so maybe in the past some people who called themselves Christians said that God wouldn’t allow global warming, and gays shouldn’t have civil rights, and the Global War on Islam was a good idea, and we should nuke Iran and torture the survivors. They were completely and utterly wrong. But WE aren’t wrong, and we totally got a clear signal this time.
“WotT” is on the eponymous first album.
First time I’ve ever used the word “eponymous.”
I saw a mouse, in hat and shoes
going downtown on the bus
He had no pants, and nothing to lose
Why, that silly mouse was eponymous…
mikey
Lemon curry?
Matt T., Anne Rice didn’t exactly find Jesus, at least not in any evangelical way. She was raised Catholic in New Orleans – her maiden name was Michael Anne O’Brien – and she was actually more of a lapsed Catholic who went back to the church after her husband died and she almost died from diabetes. You can see the influence of the church in all her writing. You can take the girl out of the church, etc, etc. (I believe the Vamp Lestat had sex with a nun in one of the books, when he was in a human body.) She’s always kind of interested me. I like her concepts about aesthetic truth being the only truth, although I imagine she’s turned away from that now that she’s back in the fold. The world as Savage Garden idea was interesting as well. I haven’t read the young jesus thing, but I’ll bet it’s a whole lot trippier than your every day bible story.
I’m a crazy lapsed Irish Catholic as well. I imagine I’ll stay lapsed though. Still, I love a good Andrew Greeley mystery. 🙂
/This has been a Halloween geek moment from Ms. Candy.
They make Jesus seem like Billy Mumy’s character from that one “Twilight Zone” episode.
No talking when the music’s playing!
Stand by, Bouffant.
I need to find my ‘Two Dollar Word Dictionary’.
Got it. Proceed.
And how is this different from people who whine that the U. S. is a “Christian” nation, and we should deport any & all Muslims?
Not to mention that other apocryphal text, the Book of Coulter, wherein Jeebus, speaking through his representative on Earth, St. Ann, called for the death of Moooslim leaders, the forced conversion of their followers, & then the perfection of the Jews.
P. S.: In case you didn’t get it, you should know that the earth belongs to Allah & His Apostle. Especially His Apostle, since Allah seems to be on vacation or something.
I will write out 100 times: “I will not derail S,N! threads by mentioning BÖC tracks.”
the prime religious target, this time, being Muslims instead of Jews (or Catholics and The Vatican).
The olde-time anti-catholic bullshit used to feature the idea of ‘mental reservations’. As in, “You catholics might say you have no intention of taking over the world and subjecting us all to the harsh theocratic law of the papacy… but you have this doctrine of ‘mental reservation’ that lets you lie, even on oath, when talking to an unbeliever! What’s that? No such doctrine? Well of course you’d lie about that as well.”
If pressed for citations, I will point to Tristan Shandy.
Anyway, that story has been dusted off and processed with the s/catholic/islam/g script.
Wait… Didn’t Anne Rice’s last, or close to, vampire novel cause a stir by suggesting that what with Jebus knowing he wuz God and that he had the ability to transcend death his sacrifice on the cross wasn’t all that big a deal?
My memory is very fuzzy, but I could swear Memnoch had something like that in it.
Ah, Anne Rice. Is it true that her bondage-and-discipline p0rn trilogy is to be re-issued by Regnery Press?
t4toby, I only know eponymous from reading it in “rock criticism.” Why the crits couldn’t just say “self-titled” is beyond me. Now I only read the internet, & just the simple parts, at that.
I don’t know from Anne Rice, but it’s been obvious to me for quite some time that the whole “sacrifice on the cross” thing was a load of crap, Mr. Ben-Joseph knowing full well that he’d be on the planet Kolob w/ Elohim, his father, in a matter of days. Not to mention that the whole “original sin” deal was entrapment by Gawd anyway. A total crock, in other words.
Did everyone get busted by their stupidvisors & have to go back to work? Am I in charge here now?
Oh, Bill Hicks, praise unto him, had a bit about Jebus wanting to die on the cross and egging the Romans on to hurry it up, M. I’ll bet back at the Council where they put the Bible together someone was bringing that up in a call for some rewrites, but the editors crapped out.
Ah, the East Coasters have already left their nine-to-fives. It’s the dead zone mikey has referred to. Well, let’s see what kind of fun we can have. I’ll be right back.
[smears weird goo on the SN! veterans memorial]
Ah, an unemployed Easterner. Of course he wanted/had to die, would’ve been a waste otherwise. Wasn’t there just some revisionist hoopla about Judas being an important part of the whole scam, & therefore shouldn’t be condemmed as a, um, “Judas.”
I’m in charge here.
You mean the rediscovered Gospel of Judas? Yep.
“Hey!! What’s this crap on the Wall of Flame? Can’t leave this place for a minute, without one of you brats screwing it up! Now do you see why we can’t have nice things?”
RB
Let it be known: we will not rest until every bit of weird goo is cleaned from the monument (not by us, by dark people, of course).
And we will be vigilant. Very, very vigilant.
We have Mountain Dew and Cheetos, so don’t test our resolve!
Nah, the real dead zone kicks in right at five pacific. I get home, turn on olbermann, pour a drinky, wake up the laptop, and it’s like, why bother. There’s nobody there…
mikey
Where do you go to buy “Weird Goo”?
I’m picturing a bottle with a pour spout and a label identifying it as “Weird Goo”. Also available in the 48oz family size.
From the American Goo company. Meeting all your Goo needs since 1925.
Weird Goo. Now with 20% more Weirdness…
mikey
adb, I haven’t read Memnoch in years, but that does ring a bell . . .
You’d have to be more specific. Which porn trilogy?
Oh, wait, you’re talking about the Beauty’s Secret, Beauty’s Release, what was the other one, Beauty’s something or other, that she wrote under a pen name? Oh, jeebus, that would be so funny, especially if they published it first and then read it later . . .
Let it be known: we will not rest until every bit of weird goo is cleaned from the monument
I deny having anything to do with the weird goo.
Where do you go to buy “Weird Goo”?
There’s this little mail-order place in…oh fuck.
Where do you go to buy “Weird Goo”?
You come to me.
Jeez, you guys went 87 comments and no trolls showed up?
It’s awfully quiet. Too quiet.
Beauty’s Secret, Beauty’s Release, what was the other one, Beauty’s something or other
Them’s the ones. Perfect for the Regnery readership. No wet-suits to speak of, but dildi a-plenty.
Or so I hear.
From Numbers 31:
1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
3And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.
4Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.
5So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.
6And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.
7And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
8And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
9And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
10And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
11And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
12And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
13And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
14And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
The fact is, you are all dirty fucking hippies who hate America and you want the terrorists to win.
I have a life, so I have to leave for five or ten minutes. But I will be back to heckle my liberals friends after I have prayed for you that you will stop the hating on George W. Bush, who is (checks the latest edition of the Big Book of Republican Talking Points) an honest, decent man who made a few mistakes – who knew a war in the Middle East would be hard and people would die? – but would have done better if it weren’t for the Lieberal media crticisizing him all the time and emboldening the terrorists.
Liberals. Hmf.
(Happy now, g?)
Why were they so gung ho about warring with the Midianites? All the Midianites had was a strip of land in the middle of the road.
It was only a strip of land in the middle of the road, but they were content.
Until the LORD spake unto Moses, saying: Thou shalt strike a happy Midian.
Beating the Midian in a war was easy.
But you shoulda been there when the lord told us to go fight the mean….
(and that’s as math-sy as I get)…
mikey
Typical Republican, you don’t count. Hell, I’m not even sure you exist.
The Gold Star Mother you mocked is one D. Brand, mother of the late lamented Emerson Brand who was killed by an explosively formed projectile March 15. The email was genuine, and I have now sent this site to her.
Argumentum Tu Quoque does not cut the mustard. Regardless of various deviations by corrupted clerics & exploitative emperors, the Gospels & acts are entirely lacking equivalents to the open ended commands to make war enshrined in Al-Anfal 39 & Al-Taubah 29. When did Jesus declare that he was commanded to fight with men until they testify… Abu Dawud 14.2635 ? Submission makes our lives and property unlawful to Muslims. In Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387 we learn that our blood and property are not sacred to Muslims until we submit. Those hadith declare open season on us.
Estimates of the victims of the conquest of India range from 40 to 90 million. The Assyrian genocide runs to 750,000 and the Armenian genocide to 1.5 million. In Al-Anfal 67, Allah tells Moe that great slaughter is his ticket to Paradise.
Islamic Jihad ain’t about anything we did or failed to do, its about the wealth we possess and the fact that we ain’t Muslims.
I’m getting some diplomatic support from some of my toes and my scrotum, but there’s no news yet.
How goes the scrotum struggle, Mikey? I’ve heard no word, and I’m getting worried (actually, I’ve only just got up, but that’s beside the point. We barely employed antipodeans gotta make conversation somehow).
And despite being a gen-u-wine mathematician, I’ll leave the Midian gags to the rest of you guys. You’re doing much better without me, anyway.
Islamic Jihad ain’t about anything we did or failed to do, its about the wealth we possess and the fact that we ain’t Muslims.
[Stretches, as only a cat can] Hello, Ben, glad you could join us. Fancy a cup of tea? No? Well, let’s get right into it, then.
Sigh. Listen, brother, the war in the Middle East has nothing to do with Islamic jihad, or raiders on viking, or any other historical/reigious trope. The war in the Middle East is because the US government decided, in their benevolent wisdom, to invade and occupy an innocent country that just happened to be one of the world’s largest sources of oil.
Would Iraq have been occupied if their major product was broccoli? I suspect not, although I may be wrong.
Whatever the case with that, it’s certain that:
1) Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11;
2) Saddam had no WMDs;
3) Saddam was no threat even to his neighbours, much less the most heavily armed nation in the history of the world;
4) The war of occupation in Iraq is daily contributing to hatred of America, which will, sooner or later, result in more acts of terrorism against Americans.
So why do you hate America so much, Ben?
Gold Star parents are like 9/11 relatives. Unimpeachable so long as they’re right wing. If not, they’re disgraces to their children.
Right, Ben?
That’s just harsh! Just because we always come up with a few thousand phantom votes in every election, it doesn’t mean there aren’t a FEW of us around.
Just check the airport men’s rooms.
Liberals. Hmf.
I look forward to hearing from her.
Subtracting the Old Testament from the Christian Bible while including giant amounts of sectarian commentary with Muslim scripture certainly makes such a reading possible, yes.
As to whether it’s appropriate (or honest), the point of the ‘tu quoque’ was to show that it isn’t hard to rummage around in the Christian tradition and find similarly alarming statements. I think if you’re trying to demonstrate that Islam is unique among Abrahamic religions in its viciousness and bellicosity, it’s necessary to show that it actually is unique, etc.
These are numbers that I haven’t seen before, and while I’m suspicious, in general, of such numbers, I’ll look them up.
And yet, here we are sitting on Iraq’s oil. This seems like quite a table-turning switcheroo, if Islam was plotting to steal our wealth the whole time.
The Bible includes God drowning the world and all of it’s inhabitants, burning two cities wholesale, the destruction of another entire city by his chosen people specifically including all women and children, etc etc. It’s hard to argue that Christianity is a religion of peace when you worship a vengeful, irrational warmonger.
I’ve always loved that when God was threatening to destroy Sodom in the height of his blind rage he was talked back to rationality by a pesky human liberal who had to point out to God that killing innocent people is a bad thing.
Also I would point out that throwing out the Old Testament doesn’t make a whole lot of sense when “values voters” rely on it almost exclusively for their hatemongering. You don’t get to pick and choose when it’s applicable and when it isn’t.
If you are going to go with the story that God destroyed Sodom because it had gay people in it you also have to go with the story that God considers civilians casualties to be collateral damage.
Jeezus christs tits in a mason jar, Gav!
Who ARE these assholes?
How do they come here? Hell, WHY do they come here?
Do they think we just need a little of their message of hatred and intollerance, misery and murder and we’ll be all “hell yeah, america, damn right, kill the fuckers”?
Do they not recognize they are saying EXACTLY the same thing as bin laden, but they have a different book?
Gad….
mikey
Wasn’t there just some revisionist hoopla about Judas being an important part of the whole scam, & therefore shouldn’t be condemmed as a, um, “Judas.”
I don’t know nothin’ ’bout no Judas Gospel, but that does sound like a major plotline in a certain Martin Scorcese movie.
You don’t get to pick and choose when it’s applicable and when it isn’t.
http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/
The Assyrian genocide runs to 750,000 and the Armenian genocide to 1.5 million.
The numbers seem to be picked from the top end of estimates within some rather tendentious Wikipedia pages.
Wikipedia also informs us that the Ottoman empire was governed at the time by the secular, nationalist ideology of the Young Turks, and that Mehmed Talat Pasha (Minister of the Interior, most closely implicated in removing minority populations) was an atheist and Freemason. Ben might want to explain the link between these atrocities and clauses of obscure Koranic commentary.
Beg to differ. We can and do.
Debi Brand here, forced Gold Star mon.
I understand there seems to be an issue with statements I made in an e-mail I sent to Ben, that, he in turn posted here.
I will happily discuss those statements with anyone wishing to do so.
Debi Brand
Debi, I’m mostly taking issue with this very selective reading of Islamic texts, trying to prove that individual Muslims are bad people — programmed by their religion to kill, or what have you.
It would be very easy (and also wrong) to take sentences out of the Torah and the Talmud, or even out of Protestant Reformation and Counter-Reformation texts, that ‘prove’ that Jews and Christians are bad people.
Kinda sounds to me like when they told us we had to kill the fuckin NVA ’cause they were communists, and that was dangerous and threatening to our entire way of life.
But fact is, when it came down to it, we just killed them ’cause they were trying to kill us. For perfectly serviceable reasons, I’m sure.
You DO see the circularity in this cheney-esqe bullshit, don’t you, Deb?
Tool…
mikey
This comment uses html techniques that may not reproduce properly. In which case, I will post it at Miss Beth’s Stomping Ground.
1.
Qetesh the Abyssinian said,
November 1, 2007 at 1:48
Islamic Jihad ain’t about anything we did or failed to do, its about the wealth we possess and the fact that we ain’t Muslims.
[Stretches, as only a cat can] Hello, Ben, glad you could join us. Fancy a cup of tea? No? Well, let’s get right into it, then.
Sigh. Listen, brother, the war in the Middle East has nothing to do with Islamic jihad, or raiders on viking, or any other historical/reigious trope. The war in the Middle East is because the US government decided, in their benevolent wisdom, to invade and occupy an innocent country that just happened to be one of the world’s largest sources of oil.1
Would Iraq have been occupied if their major product was broccoli? I suspect not, although I may be wrong.
Whatever the case with that, it’s certain that:
1) Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11;2
2) Saddam had no WMDs;3
3) Saddam was no threat even to his neighbours, much less the most heavily armed nation in the history of the world;4
4) The war of occupation in Iraq is daily contributing to hatred of America, which will, sooner or later, result in more acts of terrorism against Americans.5
So why do you hate America so much, Ben?6
1. The war in Afghanistan is a result of state sponsorship of terrorism, which caused the death of 3000 in New York & Washington D.C. The war in Iraq is a result of egregious & continuous violation of the terms of cease fire of Desert Storm. And perhaps you forgot where Abdul Rahman Yasin spent the years between 09/11/’01 and the invasion of Iraq. Then there is the little matter of $25,000 subsidy to Splodydopes and the terrorist training facility at Salman Pak. If we went for oil, why haven’t we seized it?
2. Iraq is 80% Muslim. In case you missed it, the Qur’an requires Muslims to make war on Kuffar. Islamic law requires the Caliph or Imam to mount at least one military expedition in every year. Connections between Saddam’s regime and Al-Qaeda are well documented.
3. Totally irrelevant as well as false. Mortar shells filled with Mustard Gas have been found in Iraq, and the WMD issue was neither sole nor most significant casus belli.
4. No threat? How can you make that claim in the face of the invasion of Kuwait, stamping license plates for use in KSA & the eight year war against Iran????
5. Hatred of America is a function of hubris and Islamic doctrine enshrined in the Qur’an. Islam hates anyone who does not embrace it. If defence against Islamic aggression results in hate, leading to increased aggression, then the correct response is instantaneous extermination. How was World War Two ended?
6. That is a prime example of the straw man argument coupled with projection.
Gavin, the fact is that Islam is singularly bellicose. How many battles did Jesus Christ order ? Moe ordered 85. How many battles did Jesus Christ physically participate in? Moe fought in 17. Christian scripture does not have any commands equivalent to those found in the Qur’an, particularly 8:39 & 9:29.
When Islam’s armies invaded India and other places, they carried home vast quantities of gold, silver, and other booty. We are not doing that in Iraq. The difference between aggressive conquest and defense seems to escape your notice entirely.
#
Herr Doktor Bimler said,
November 1, 2007 at 3:53
The Assyrian genocide runs to 750,000 and the Armenian genocide to 1.5 million.
The numbers seem to be picked from the top end of estimates within some rather tendentious Wikipedia pages.
Wikipedia also informs us that the Ottoman empire was governed at the time by the secular, nationalist ideology of the Young Turks, and that Mehmed Talat Pasha (Minister of the Interior, most closely implicated in removing minority populations) was an atheist and Freemason. Ben might want to explain the link between these atrocities and clauses of obscure Koranic commentary.
You can’t be an atheist and a Freemason, Doc! Your ignorance is showing. Whether you like it or not, the Ottoman Empire had the Caliph’s throne at that time. Attaturk, who dissolved the Caliphate, was a Muslim and a FreeMason.
#
Gavin M. said,
November 1, 2007 at 5:05
Debi, I’m mostly taking issue with this very selective reading of Islamic texts, trying to prove that individual Muslims are bad people — programmed by their religion to kill, or what have you.
It would be very easy (and also wrong) to take sentences out of the Torah and the Talmud, or even out of Protestant Reformation and Counter-Reformation texts, that ‘prove’ that Jews and Christians are bad people.
Its the straw man argument again. Neither the Myth vs Fact series nor my other posts focus on individual Muslims. They focus on Islamic doctrine and practice. The Qur’an reveals the relationship between Allah and his slaves [9:111] and tells them what to do. [8:12, 8:39, 8:67, 9:29, 47:4]
Islam is a threat to us because a sufficient number of Muslims believe and act on those damnable doctrines. Threats need not be successful to be harmful. Hitler & Mussolini failed to conquer and hold Europe, but the killed millions of people in their attempt. Had our father’s generation sat back to see what the outcome would be, it might have been much different; we might be speaking German.
Ben’s 1234 and five are pretty much conspiracy theory that nobody but an ass takes seriously at this point. Rebuttal is pointless, as with UFO nuts.
But on Islam:
In case you missed it, the Qur’an requires Muslims to make war on Kuffar.
You’re quite stupid if you haven’t noticed that a billion muslims are actually not waging war on Kuffar. They have better things to do.
I think Islam’s a shit religion, but as with most religions people tend to behave as they like, which mostly revolves around trying to live in peace.
Righteous Bubba,
Why don’t you read Chapter 9 of Reliance of the Traveler? It lays out the Sharia concerning Jihad. Offensive Jihad is fard Kifaya, not fard ayn. Once a sufficient number of men have gone to the front, the others are freed from the obligation. They are still obligated, however, to support the Mujahideen with prayer, financial support and caring for their families.
With American Muslims being peace loving pacifists, how was the Holy Land Foundation able to accrue $13,000,000 for HAMAS?
The Bolsheviks were not a majority in Russia. The colonists who revolted 230 years ago were not a majority either.
Why don’t you read Chapter 9 of Reliance of the Traveler?
Why don’t you read a newspaper?
‘Christian scripture’ includes the Old Testament and canonical writings besides the Gospels. You can’t simply cut those things out of the tradition in order to set up a false historical dichotomy between Jesus and Mohammed — one of whom said nothing for attribution, was witnessed personally by no later canonical writer, and wasn’t even responsible for building his own church. The Christian church as we know it was built generations after Jesus’s death. Mohammed, on the other hand, built his own. He was his own Paul and his own Constantine. The equivalency is quite forced, and no halfway-serious student of history would waste a minute on it.
Furthermore, you can’t simply ignore the wars of conquest waged by Christian armies, including military orders such as the Knights Hospitaller and Templar. Furthermore, there were bloody purges of heretics and religious civil wars in Europe for hundreds of years.
What you’re doing is playing games with little bits of religious text trying to prove that Muslims, unlike your own kind of people, are inherently bad and should be attacked and killed. Well, it works the same way for Jews and Christians. In fact, the method you’re using is classic right-wing religious paranoia, exactly as it was used against Jews and Catholics. It’s a dirty business, and you ought to think about what you’re doing.
When ‘Christianity’s armies’ invaded South America, they brought home vast quantities of gold, silver, and other booty. And converted the natives, and instituted slavery, and so forth, although this seems to have escaped your notice entirely. The Muslim conquest of India was different exactly how?
‘Because they were Muslims’ is not a serious answer.
It sure didn’t take us long to get to “everyone we don’t like is German” now did it?
Right-wing: learn a second analogy. Preferably one that makes sense. Let’s stop comparing people who don’t even control their armed forces and aren’t the most powerful person in their own government to Hitler…just for a little while? It just sounds stupid to rely on the same single canard for everything, even when it makes no sense. Saddam is Hitler, Osama is Hitler, the guy down the street that sells pita bread is Hitler…we get it.
Considering that the right-wing takes it’s propaganda and policy directly from 30s Germany the cries about Hitler seem a bit forced.
Same way the IRA was financed and armed by Irish-Americans, to the tune of many times that amount.
That’s different exactly how?
#
Righteous Bubba said,
November 1, 2007 at 6:35
Why don’t you read Chapter 9 of Reliance of the Traveler?
Why don’t you read a newspaper?
The mainstream media are part of the problem, not the solution, Bubba! With the exception of the Wall Street Journal & Investor’s Business Daily, they toe the party line about Islam. The New York Sun and Canada Post print some good articles, but for the real deal, it is best to go right to the source and skip the middle man.
Man. Poor Ben.
We got a kid in replacements late june. His name was Art. He was a good sized kid, had played ball, had a ready smile and didn’t shirk at the work. But dammit, that poor kid was just a terrified ball of nerves. Whenever rounds would start to fly, he’d fold up in a fetal position and cry. Not on purpose. He genuinely couldn’t help it. A loud noise and Art was done for the day.
This kid Ben is the second time I’ve seen this kind of inherent cowardice. Now you gotta be fair and understand. Ben doesn’t necessarily WANT to be a coward. But the very idea, just a sliver of a thought that swarthy people who worship a different ideological mythology, with knife bared and what can only be described as an evil gleam in his eye might be, right now, at this VERY moment sneaking up to behead Ben and put a Burqa on Ben’s sister (what – you thought he might have a girlfriend or wife? Hah.) causes Ben to hyperventilate and beg for just a bit of mercy.
Sad, these guys who are more afraid of living than they are of warfare. But they offer a path that cannot be sustained. Fuck ’em…
mikey
Number of convictions against the Holy Land Foundation and it’s higher-ups: zero.
Swing and a miss.
With American Christians being peace loving pacifists, why do so many of them support torture? More than the general US population in fact.
I ain’t Catholic and I don’t defend Catholicism, Gavin. The subject is Islam. American Muslims dropped $13Mil into the Zakat box for HAMAS. That ain’t a demonstration of peace loving.
Oh right. I need to remember to watch the rumor/fact distinction more closely.
The New York Sun and Canada Post print some good articles, but for the real deal, it is best to go right to the source and skip the middle man.
There is no Canada Post, but “right to the source” – whatever that is – has led you to embrace a steaming pile of bullshit that even neocons don’t try to push anymore because it’s embarrassingly wrong. See again your 1234 and 5.
Quick! Name a Muslim country that’s attacked the US!
No, the subject is what we decide the subject is. If you are going to single out one religion you better be able to explain *why* it is different, and saying “I don’t defend Catholicism” is an admission that you can’t do that.
If you want to argue that many religions are fucked up feel free. If you want to argue that one religion specifically is fucked up you have to contrast it with the others.
Otherwise you should go start “Catholifacism awareness week” since Catholics are by your own admission no more defensible than Muslims.
The subject is Islam.
I believe you’ll find that the subject is bullshit and who’s slinging it. At the moment it’s you.
And I’m saying that if you’re attributing unique, intrinsic pathologies to Islam, you need to at least make an effort to account for the fact that they’re not unique, and apparently not intrinsic to Islam.
That’s not tu quoque, either: It’s universalism.
“You’re one, too!” does not cut the mustard, Gavin. Attacking Christianity does not defend Islam. Islam’s purpose is mercenary and its method is martial.
What You Need To Know About Islam has links to the vital facts about Islam’s mercenary and martial nature: http://totheulama.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/what-you-need-to-know-about-islam/
.
What You Need To Know About Islam has links to the vital facts
Maybe these vital facts will result in the invasion of Morocco or Tunisia.
Actually “You’re one, too!” does very much cut the mustard if your point is that Islam is singularly evil. The opposite of “unique” is “not unique.” Math for the win.
Read the Qur’an & Hadith, Gavin. You can find links to them at my blog and web site. Sahih Bukhari books 52, 53 & 59 reveal what Muhammad did and said outside of the Mosque. The Qur’an reveals what he said in it. The two form a congruent pattern. Besides reinforcing each other, the two texts are the basis of Sharia. In my previous comment, I posted the url to a blog post which quotes relevant passages from Islamic Law.
What minister of the Gospel is preaching holy war in what church? What Muslim Imam is not preaching Jihad in what Mosque? MEMRI has plenty of tapes & transcripts of Jihad preaching. What was the blind sheikh preaching in N.J. in 1993? What were his congregants doing?
It indeed cuts the mustard when people are going around using the same faulty, hashed-together arguments for attacking Muslims as people used in the 1920s and ’30s for attacking Jews. I don’t mean just in Germany and Italy, but in America.
See, back then, few Americans liked Jews very much or stepped up to defend them. Whereas now, few Americans like Muslims very much or step up to defend them. That’s the difference, see.
You might perceive the difference as “Jews don’t have an international conspiracy to destroy civilization, and claiming they do is nothing but vile anti-Semitism,” but that’s because you’re living now instead of then.
Is this making sense?
Read the Qur’an
I’ve read it. It sucks. So what? The Egyptian navy is not currently steaming towards Hoboken under its influence.
Ben, you’re failing to get some very big points. You’re failing to get, for instance, that Islam is no different from Christianity: both sets of holy writings condone war and brutality, and both have been used to justify wars of conquest and acquisition. For the gods’ sakes, what about the Crusades? Those fucking Christians slaughtered everyone along their path, including (but not limited to) a lot of Armenian Christians. All in god’s name, Ben.
So if you’re attempting to prove that Islam is uniquely violent, you’re pushing shit uphill, because there’s centuries of history to prove you wrong.
Why do you claim to know so much about Islam anyway? Why are you so afraid of Muslims? I mean, I’m not afraid of them. But then, I’ve met some, Ben. I know that Muslims are just ordinary folks: they mostly want to work and survive and raise their kids just like Christians and Jews and Hindus and Buddhists.
And if you’re either a Christian or a Jew, then you’re not following scripture, if you (for example) wear poly/cotton underthings. And if you’re not following that one single line, then why won’t you believe that Muslims might also not be following the instructions in one single line of their holy book?
Face it, Ben, you’re just digging yourself into a bigger hole here. Give up while you’ve still got a shred of dignity.
Your argument lacks logic, Gavin. The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion is a proven fabrication, not accepted by Jews as a guide for action. The Qur’an & Hadith, regardless of actual provenance, are generally accepted by Muslims and serve as the basis of Sharia.
Neither Jews nor Christians are under a binding, unlimited mandate to conquer the world. Muslims are. The Jews were commanded to conquer Canaan. The mandate ended with the completion of the conquest. Muslims are commanded to fight until only Allah is worshiped, altogether and everywhere.
Moe said that Jihad would be practiced continuously until the last day. He also cursed Muslims who would abandon Jihad for agriculture.
Where Islam has sufficient strength and can get away with it, they murder, rape and burn. Not only in Darfur, but in Nigeria and Indonesia and Thailand.
That’s what Islam is all about; what it does, by design.
What Muslim Imam is not preaching Jihad in what Mosque?
Most of them, I should imagine. Otherwise you’d be knee-deep in a billion Muslims.
I’m still waiting to hear how the Christian conquest of North and South America was so different from the Islamic conquest of India.
Look Ben, you really don’t have a clue how we humans work. Both Muslims and Christians have brutally conquered and pillaged in the name of their religion, and have both done so at roughly the same rate. Once in awhile they did and do it to each other.
Any basic study of history shows that people like to brutally kill each other, usually in order to gain wealth or power of some sort. People will use whatever excuse is handy to do this, and religion has always been a popular choice.
You can quote musty old texts all day long, but it won’t change what actually happened, which is that both Islam and Christianity have killed untold millions. Meanwhile, the vast majority of both groups just want to live in peace.
You can’t see that because you’re a bigot. Accept it already.
What minister of the Gospel is preaching holy war in what church?
None around here, certainly: down here we’ve seen too much of that sort of propaganda. But around where you are, I suspect there’s lots. I suspect you know a lot of people who want to annihilate the entire Muslim population of the world, just so you’ll sleep better at night, knowing those scary brown people won’t be kneeling down to pray and looking at you funny.
Why else would you believe such a patent load of bollocks?
Moe said that Jihad would be practiced continuously until the last day.
Oh, Ben. Jihad doesn’t mean holy war in the sense of going forth with sword and shield to smite the foe: it means war within oneself. Struggling daily against wrong impulses.
Where Islam has sufficient strength and can get away with it, they murder, rape and burn. Not only in Darfur, but in Nigeria and Indonesia and Thailand.
That’s what Islam is all about; what it does, by design.
Jesus, Ben, you’re talking in cartoon terms now. And what’s with this “and Indonesia and Thailand”? What do you think has been going on there lately?
Neither Jews nor Christians are under a binding, unlimited mandate to conquer the world.
Jews aren’t, but last I heard Christians were required to convert all to Christianity. Hell, a true Christian’s foremost goal is the “save” everyone they can. Now most Christians (who actually care) go about this by annoying people on street corners or door-to-door. The Spanish in the 1500s used a different tactic.
Look it up.
Where Islamhumanity has sufficient strength and can get away with it, they murder, rape and burn.
FTFY
Not quite fixed I guess. Imagine a line through Islam. The preview could do it, so can you!
Um, the ahadith are not literally true as accounts of what anyone said. This should be especially clear since the Sahih Bukhari is all about collecting varying, sometimes contradictory versions of events.
Besides, you seem to be taking the Sunni line, since Shia don’t consider this stuff canonical. Important distinction there.
But yes, many Muslims believe that the Sahih Bukhari includes a true record of what Mohammed said and did.
Well, Fred Phelps just got hit with a gigantic lawsuit today, so maybe he won’t be preaching so much holy war for awhile.
What Imam isn’t preaching Jihad? Well, they’re all preaching Jihad, since the word ‘Jihad’ means duty to the faith. If some crazy Mormons were ever to use the word ‘tithing’ to denote violence, perhaps someone would try to claim that all Mormons are terrorists for supporting tithing. Then again, probably not.
What was the other question? Oh, MEMRI. Yeah, you can get a lot of good stuff from an ‘impartial translation service’ run by Israeli intelligence agents. They even translate most of the words correctly.
I can see it, Jrod, I really can! I see the light of that strikethrough, I do! Praise Jesus! Ah ayum saved!
The Talmud certainly isn’t a fabrication. Much of the ‘scholarship’ against Jews was based on genuine Jewish texts. I never mentioned the Protocols of Zion.
Interestingly, right-wing ‘Middle-East scholars’ have been doing amazing work in making it seem as though only the aggressors in Darfur are Muslim. In fact, both sides are Muslim.
Qetesh the Abyssinian said,
1. Islam is no different from Christianity: both sets of holy writings condone war and brutality, and both have been used to justify wars of conquest and acquisition.
2. For the gods’ sakes, what about the Crusades?
3. So if you’re attempting to prove that Islam is uniquely violent, you’re pushing shit uphill, because there’s centuries of history to prove you wrong.
4. Why do you claim to know so much about Islam anyway?
5. Why are you so afraid of Muslims?
6. I know that Muslims are just ordinary folks: they mostly want to work and survive and raise their kids just like Christians and Jews and Hindus and Buddhists.
7. Muslims might also not be following the instructions in one single line of their holy book?
8. Face it, Ben, you’re just digging yourself into a bigger hole here. Give up while you’ve still got a shred of dignity.
1. Islamic scripture commands conquest on a global scale. Moe claimed to be successor to Christ. But Christ neither preached nor practiced Jihad. Moe did. You claim there’s no difference. That is a token of analencephalopathy, a common condition among liberals. Moe preached war; Christ preached peace. Muslims engaged in Jihad are following Moe’s orders. Christians engaged in Imperialism contravene Christ’s teaching. Christianity is not defined by its deviants.
2. The Crusades were a counter action against 400 years of Islamic invasion of Europe and interference with pilgrimage to Jerusalem. The Crusaders were’nt perfect. Their imperfection condemns them, not Christianity. Islam is condemnable on the basis of its intrinsic doctrines, which are 180° out of phase with Christianity’s.
3. Exactly where in the world is holy war preached in Christian Churches? Where are Christians slitting throats, burning Mosques and detonating themselves in crowded markets? On what scope and scale? How is that comparable to what Islam is doing?
4. My knowledge of Islam is derived from a great deal of reading, both Islamic scripture and books writen about it. What proof do you have of error or falsehood on my part?
5. Thats the straw man argument again. In the abscence of valid fact & logic analencephalopaths revert to logical fallacy. Why was Churchill aftaid of Hitler? Why were the settlers at the Khaibar Oasis afraid of Moe? What happened to them? Has it escaped your notice that Pakistan has about 70 nuclear warheads and is purchasing submarines capable of carying missiles which can deliver those warheads? The risk of the current regime being replaced by orthodox Muslims is extreme. Iran’s joining the “nuclear club” is just a matter of time. Nothing will deter them from using nukes as soon as they are able.
6. You know a falsehood. Every country with the suffix Istan in its name was conquered by Islam. Those conquests were not performed by pacifists. Islam is neither a religion nor peaceful.
7. Success is from Allah; failure is from yourself. Wahhabism is based on returning to Islamic purity so as to regain the promise of 8:65 & 40:51.
8. Another prime example of projection. You have neither facts nor valid logic with which to prove an invalid position.
#
Gavin M. said,
November 1, 2007 at 8:01
Where Islam has sufficient strength and can get away with it, they murder, rape and burn. Not only in Darfur…
Interestingly, right-wing ‘Middle-East scholars’ have been doing amazing work in making it seem as though only the aggressors in Darfur are Muslim. In fact, both sides are Muslim.
Takfir is involved in that case. Greed leads the powerful to abuse power; their clerics rationalize their predation. Takfir is expressly forbidden but that does not stop them from practicing it.
#
Gavin M. said,
November 1, 2007 at 7:58
Your argument lacks logic, Gavin. The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion is a proven fabrication, not accepted by Jews as a guide for action.
The Talmud certainly isn’t a fabrication. Much of the ’scholarship’ against Jews was based on genuine Jewish texts. I never mentioned the Protocols of Zion.
The Talmud is a record of scholarly debate between Rabbis, not part of the Torah. It presents more than one side of many arguments. and there are fabricated Talmud frauds on the web.
Gavin, your argument is bogus.
Qur’an & Hadith were both transmitted from mouth to ear for generations. Neither needs to be true to be effective, only believed and acted upon.
No mainstream madhahib rejects the duty of Jihad. Prove me wrong, Gavin. Sufism is included!
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14578
Below is what Al-Ghazali actually wrote about jihad war, and the treatment of the vanquished non-Muslim dhimmi peoples (from the Wagjiz, written in 1101 A.D.):
…one must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year…one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them…If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – Jews and Christians, typically] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked…One may cut down their trees…One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide…they may steal as much food as they need…
First I’ve heard of Darfur as a Takfiri problem.
Um, if I look it up, is it going to just be a bunch of links to The Jawa Report, Jihad Watch, and all that?
#
Qetesh the Abyssinian said,
November 1, 2007 at 7:42
Where Islam has sufficient strength and can get away with it, they murder, rape and burn. Not only in Darfur, but in Nigeria and Indonesia and Thailand.
That’s what Islam is all about; what it does, by design.
Jesus, Ben, you’re talking in cartoon terms now. And what’s with this “and Indonesia and Thailand”? What do you think has been going on there lately?
Qetesh, find a good Proctologist!
In Aceh, the Muslims burned Christian villages and threw bodies down the wells to poison them. The U.N. sent their Blue Hats, and two of them were sent home to one of the Arab countries with broken penises after trying to bugger goats. The Blue Hats were also abusing local girls.
In Nigeria they are imposing Sharia and rioting, burning Churches and murdering Christians on flimsy pretexts. In Thailand they have been bombing, shooting police and teachers, burning schools and decapitating schoolgirls.
#
Jrod said,
November 1, 2007 at 7:38
I’m still waiting to hear how the Christian conquest of North and South America was so different from the Islamic conquest of India.
Look Ben, you really don’t have a clue how we humans work. Both Muslims and Christians have brutally conquered and pillaged in the name of their religion, and have both done so at roughly the same rate. Once in awhile they did and do it to each other.
Any basic study of history shows that people like to brutally kill each other, usually in order to gain wealth or power of some sort. People will use whatever excuse is handy to do this, and religion has always been a popular choice.
You can quote musty old texts all day long, but it won’t change what actually happened, which is that both Islam and Christianity have killed untold millions. Meanwhile, the vast majority of both groups just want to live in peace.
You can’t see that because you’re a bigot. Accept it already.
Your assumption is false, Jrod. Support for the reconquest of Israel is extremely widespread among the Ummah, as is support for eventual world domination. Islam has not be reformed and is not capable of reformation.
My argument is not what you just said it was. You’re using these texts as though they were accurate records of what Mohammed said and did.
First you’re going to have to define ‘Jihad,’ because there’s a tendency to have it both ways with that word. It means totally ordinary things until someone wants to prove that all Muslims are demented murderers.
Do you mean ‘Jihad’ as in killing people?
Um, I don’t think you really want to use David Horowitz’s people as a source here. You realize where you are, right? And you realize that Andrew Bostom was just hanging out with neo-Nazis at the conference in Belgium (not to mention consorting with Pam Oshry)?
I mean, go ahead, but I’m being sporting here.
1. My argument is not what you just said it was. You’re using these texts as though they were accurate records of what Mohammed said and did.
2. First you’re going to have to define ‘Jihad,’ because there’s a tendency to have it both ways with that word. It means totally ordinary things until someone wants to prove that all Muslims are demented murderers.
1. Islam’s canon of scripture is only significant because it is believed and acted upon. If not carried out, it would be harmless. If caried out, its veracity or fallacy is irrelevant.
2. The term literally means striving. Hilali & Khan, whose translation is published by an organ of KSA, say this in their footnotes to 2:190: http://www.qurancomplex.com/Quran/Targama/Targama.asp?nSora=%202&l=eng&nAya=%20190#%202_%20190
(V.2:190) Al-Jihâd (holy fighting) in Allâh’s Cause (with full force of numbers and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islâm and is one of its pillar (on which it stands). By Jihâd Islâm is established, Allâh’s Word is made superior, (His Word being Lâ ilaha illallâh which means none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh), and His Religion (Islâm) is propagated. By abandoning Jihâd (may Allâh protect us from that) Islâm is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honour is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihâd is an obligatory duty in Islâm on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfil this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.
Jihad is often classed as greater or lesser. The greater Jihad is Jihad An-Nafs, against the self. It implies striving against ego and temptation. Lesser Jihad is “fighting in Allah’s Cause”, which is “to make his word superior” Refer to Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 355.
How do you get killed in Jihad An-Nafs? Refer to 4:74. 8:39 & 9:29 specify the verb and subject. That is what I mean by Jihad, the common meaning; the only significant meaning.
Great Caesar’s ghost!
The Old Testament doesn’t count as Christianity, unless one is dealing with gays–those people are abominations!
Look, Ben, was the God of Moses in the Old Testament the same god as the God of Jesus? In fact wasn’t Jesus himself, by conventional doctrine, the God of Moses? So, how can you tell us, in effect,”Well, sure, the God of Moses ordered the slaughter of Midianite infants, but Jesus had nothing to do with that,” without repudiating mainstream Christianity?
And when Miss Beth was challenged, here was her response
How interesting none of you idiots can read a post, feel the only thing you can quote is OT (show me NT, moron) and can’t be bothered to go to the main site.
Why don’t you go get laid and relieve some of the stress off your micro brain while I go peruse some interesting cartoons by Lars. And flush another holy book.
Y’all are frankly terrified that the truth of your agenda is coming out and it pisses the hell out of you that we see through your agenda. Learn to read, learn who authors are, (gee, they’re generally at the bottom of the post), get off your freaking high horses, learn what the hell you’re talking about, do your research and quit trying to push your liberal bullshit off on others. We’re not the ones who took out WTC and snuffed out over 3,000 lives, not to mention all the other acts of terrorism perpetrated in your name.
Deal with it.
Truth hurts, huh? Too fucking bad.
Comment by Miss Beth | November 1, 2007
Her desire to FLUSH A HOLY BOOK says it all.
The Crusades were a counter action against 400 years of Islamic invasion of Europe and interference with pilgrimage to Jerusalem.
Oh, bollocks. The Crusades were a quest for booty, pure and simple. Sure, it was dressed up to sound as though there was some religious justification, but, like most wars, it was purely for material gain. Muslim rulers never stood in the way of any Christian or Jewish pilgrimage, or indeed residence, to/in Jerusalem.
And you might want to compare the sack of Jerusalem (rivers of blood, wading knee-deep through corpses in the streets, etc) by the Christians with the behaviour of the Muslim forces. When cities were under Islamic rule, for instance, Jews and Christians went unmolested, as Islam considered them to be followers of the same god. When cities were under Christian rule, Jews were driven out, had to forfeit all their worldly goods, or were beaten, murdered, or otherwise harassed, because Christians considered Jews to be ‘ones who murdered Christ’.
Get your facts straight before you go blasting away.
Exactly where in the world is holy war preached in Christian Churches? Where are Christians slitting throats, burning Mosques and detonating themselves in crowded markets? On what scope and scale? How is that comparable to what Islam is doing?
Well, gee, the (Christian) US is certainly bombing the bejeezus out of Iraq. Which, until recently, was ruled by a secular despot. So, in terms of scope and scale, the body count definitely favours the Christians: over a million dead, several million refugees, and complete chaos beats out just about any numbers you can name.
In Aceh, the Muslims burned Christian villages and threw bodies down the wells to poison them.
You know, this is surprisingly similar to the behaviour of terrorists/freedom fighters/thugs in various South and Central American countries. Know who supported them? Go on, guess. I’ll give you a hint: it’s the same nation that’s been found guilty in the International Court of Justice of violating international law.
Face it, Ben, Jrod is right and you’re wrong. You’re seeking to ascribe all the evil in the world to Muslims, while Jrod points out that evil is a human trait, not restricted to one religion or race or gender.
Now I’m not a anti-american… but I would like to point out some “facts” to Ben.
The US government, elected by its citizens, has over the past 50 years, not been at peace for more than a decade.
The countries invaded have generally been small (Panama, Haiti) or considerably less well armed than the US (Vietnam). The majority of these wars have not occurred for very good reasons. (Gulf of Tonkin?)
Now if one looks at the face the US likes to think it portrays then it is the “Good Guy” and whomever is opposing it is the “Bad Guy”. Now this continual foreign aggression was not intended by the founders of your country.
Moral of this story. When people want to behave like assholes, then they do not need a reason, merely an excuse. What is your excuse?
From the Gospel of Bruce Dickinson:
RUN TO THE HILLS!!!!!
RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!!!
they’re like fucking robots. you could predict in advance every single thing Ben was going to say. it’s exactly the same as every other tosspot i’ve ever seen arguing about this online. (even down to the same dodgy examples) is there a special course you can send away for? “muslim-hating for retards” or something? ten specious arguments to wow your friends and confound your enemies. do they really think we’ll be impressed that they can look up wikipedia and know a few scary sounding arabic words? apparently so.
did you know sometimes muslims kill people? yes. did you know muslims sometimes fight wars? omg! really? did you know that some muslims have used their religion to justify atrocities and violence? surely not? i’m not sure we can handle all these crazy revelations. what next i wonder? maybe ben’ll tell us what religion the pope is.
SHHHHH do not let the cat out of the bag… It will cause the Ignorant Lunatics to have severe cases of Anxiety at the realization that Reality might cause their drug soaked minds to be AWAKENED to FACTS!!!
Islam is neither a religion
I was wondering when this little right-wing nugget was going to rear its ugly head.
You know, much as we like to use people like Ben as rhetorical punching bags, I can’t help but feel a touch depressed about it. After all, there is a pretty sizeable amount of people out there just like him–horribly misinformed, utterly foolish about some things, but also utterly convinced that they are right and absolutely impervious to actual facts. It’s like having to deal logically with a whole posse of Mark Noonans. Sort of sad.
Ben’s really pretty stupid. He’s like a comic-book version of an asshole.
Um, actually there is…
Okay. So if you take the harshest, most uncompromising translation of the Quran — indeed what appears to be a modern Wahhabi fundamentalist translation — you’ll find a verse on ‘Jihad’ that says what I’m saying.
But aha! Here’s where your case is proved! There’s a footnote by the translators that has the authority that Mohammed sadly lacks.
This is bonkers. You’re citing a freaking footnote of a cherry-picked translation.
Do you understand why this isn’t scholarship?
Hilali & Khan, whose translation is published by an organ of KSA
And Saudi Arabia has invaded how many countries again?
I love that you just cited the infancy gospel. It was one of the coolest things I learned about when I was studying early Christianity. I mean, who can’t love a killing-spree Jesus!?
Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see his banners go!
Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.
Just read through the comments. I think you should scratch the word “fun” from the title of the post.
may I mention the Fourth Crusade, which saw a fellow Christian city Constantinople sacked by Christian knights backed by the wily Venetians whose main goal was securing the Levant trade routes, they professed ‘Christian values’ but really it was just a smoke screen for money.
This bizarre focus and fear of Islam i really don’t get.
I speak from experience, in 2004 I holidayed in Egypt with a long time friend of mine (her family were from Qatar and they owned a flat in the city of Cairo) and they were Muslims and they were no different from you and I, they were throughly decent people and I was treated very well. It was a fablous holiday and fulfilled a childhood dream.
when I read the bollocks that this ‘Ben’ writes, it pisses me off.
Moonbotica, my experience with actual, real-life Muslims (as opposed to the cartoon Muslims that conservative buttholes seem to be expert on) is exactly like yours.
The Muslims in the San Fernando Valley (in Los Angeles County) turned out by the thousands for a candlelight vigil for the victims of 9-11, filling the park that’s not too far from Cal State Northridge. This kind of thing happened all over the country and all over the world, but the so-called Liberal Media(TM) didn’t cover it.
Conservatives need to pull their heads out of their butts, stop wasting their time with transparent anti-Muslim propaganda and start working on making the world a BETTER place.
As soon as conservatives want to stop doing Satan’s work, I am all for forgiveness and acceptance. Roll up your sleeves, conservatives. Cleaning up the mess you have made will be a lot of work. You’d better get started BEFORE Judgment Day or you may be surprised when Jesus gives you a blank look and says: I know ye not.
How this thread has grown! I remember when it was only this long [holds hand just above desk level].
In my mental image of Ben, he is surrounded by a pile of notebooks — microscopic, crabbed handwriting covering every page with numbered lists.
Can I help it if my mental image is a straight-out plagiarism of 7even?
[…] Beth (hates Muslims, blogs with arms and legs, see below) explains that we misunderstand her project: About Myth vs […]
Unless you have taken a good look at Miss Beth, I would suggest you know nothing about her other than looking at one post (or series) that you seem to think is out of line. First of all, I don’t think she needs your ok to post her beliefs. Next, if you really knew her you would know she is a kind, caring and compassionate person, who loves God, her family, and her country very much. My personal opinion is that since you live in a glass house here on the web – I would hold out on throwing stones. You might be messing with the wrong lady!
my experience with actual, real-life Muslims (as opposed to the cartoon Muslims that conservative buttholes seem to be expert on) is exactly like yours.
Mine as well. It’s also worth pointing out that not one of the Muslims I have known has ever tried to convert me, proselytized, or told me that I’m a terrible, amoral person who is clearly a lesser being for not sharing their faith. I cannot say the same thing about Christians I have known.
But of course, a key factor to this is that I actually know Muslims. I’m friends with Muslims. Your average Muslim-hating wingnut, of course, doesn’t. And that is part of the problem. Just as wingnuts tend to tone down their anti-gay rhetoric once they discover that somebody close to them is gay, I imagine the same thing would happen if they knew Muslims. As it stands, your average wingnut simply thinks of Muslims not as people but as abstract entities who help them feel good about shitty foreign policy.
Gavin, Debi Brand here:
[You said: Debi, I’m mostly taking issue with this very selective reading of Islamic texts, trying to prove that individual Muslims are bad people — programmed by their religion to kill, or what have you. ]
I have never done that. Nor would I.
Here’s my position, Gavin. Since the morning we all watched the magnificent 19 carry out their attacks on our homeland, and I knew, we were going to war; because I had but one son, and that son, my only child, and he, and US Infantryman, I made it my duty to know our enemy.
As such, as I read the letter that detailed what our killers that day were to recite, I had to find out, just where they got that text, and those orders from.
That is how my journey into Islam began.
Thus, since that day, I have given my self to knowing the Islamic Sacred texts. I have done so, not to do as you state above (to prove Muslim are all bad people and killers) but to simply see, what one feeds on daily, if indeed, one is feeding of the Islamic Sacred texts.
My statements that Ben posted here last week, simply stated, I called all who call themselves Muslim Muslims. I do so, because that is what they are.
They are Muslims because they have uttered the shahada, claiming their is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is his Messenger.
I stated, in the Muslim sacred text, those doing the killing, the conquering, the raiding, the subjugating, the praying as they obey Allah, following the Prophet or following his orders and example or tradition, they are called Muslims. In those text.
I stated, for that reason, I call Muslims, those who follow the Qur’an and the sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad.
That is what I stated, slightly paraphrased here, but nonetheless accurate.
Hope that helps.
Debi Brand
[It would be very easy (and also wrong) to take sentences out of the Torah and the Talmud, or even out of Protestant Reformation and Counter-Reformation texts, that ‘prove’ that Jews and Christians are bad people.]
Again, I was, and do daily, simply reading and learning how to be a good Muslim. If I wanted to be one, I would go to their books, and those alone to learn how to correctly follow the Rope of Allah.
That is what I do daily. Hence, my statements.
Hope that clear things up.
dl
Most people don’t act on these books. I bet a lot of Muslims have only a vague idea of what is in the Koran just like a lot of Christians have only a rudimentary understanding of the Bible. Move further away from the canonical texts and you’re likely to find even less knowledge.
Now some people may act on what the religious leaders tell them about these books, but that’s different. Most people deep down don’t give a shit about religion in everyday life. They may call themselves Christians or Muslims and they go through the motions (Sunday Mass, Friday prayers, etc.), but it’s an identity, not a way of life. A person’s proclaimed religion has little or no relevance on whether he or she is a generally good person or not.
I have to point out it was President Bush who called Islam a religion of peace. I don’t know about the rest of us moonbats but wouldn’t call it a religion of peace.
“Again, I was, and do daily, simply reading and learning how to be a good Muslim. If I wanted to be one, I would go to their books, and those alone to learn how to correctly follow the Rope of Allah.”
By doing that, you would become a fundamentalist muslim.
Much as, by taking the bible completely literally, you become a fundamentalist christian.
There are lots of muslims and christians that are not fundamentalist.
Hilali & Khan were commissioned to translate the Qur’an. Their product is the official KSA version. They used Yusuf Ali’s translation and several tafsirs as guides in their work.
http://www.quranbrowser.com displays ten translations in parallel. http://www.islamawakened.com/ displays eighteen translations. While the wording varies, the meanings do not. When you need to know the real meaning, Moe is the expert. Many of the hadith reveal the circumstances surrounding the revelation of certain ayat. Others show how Moe applied them.
Ibn Kathir’s Tafsir uses ayat & ahadith to explain the meaning of the ayat.
One site: http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_search&Itemid=610
lets you search the Tafsir.
Qur’an, Hadith & Tafsir are used in formulating fiqh & fatwas. The funny thing is that they form a congruent pattern which matches the history of Islam.
#
Principal Blackman said,
November 1, 2007 at 17:15
Islam is neither a religion
I was wondering when this little right-wing nugget was going to rear its ugly head.
You know, much as we like to use people like Ben as rhetorical punching bags, I can’t help but feel a touch depressed about it. After all, there is a pretty sizeable amount of people out there just like him–horribly misinformed, utterly foolish about some things, but also utterly convinced that they are right and absolutely impervious to actual facts. It’s like having to deal logically with a whole posse of Mark Noonans. Sort of sad.
Take a good, close look at your mirror, you’ll see the prime example!
#
Qetesh the Abyssinian said,
November 1, 2007 at 12:41
Exactly where in the world is holy war preached in Christian Churches? Where are Christians slitting throats, burning Mosques and detonating themselves in crowded markets? On what scope and scale? How is that comparable to what Islam is doing?
Well, gee, the (Christian) US is certainly bombing the bejeezus out of Iraq. Which, until recently, was ruled by a secular despot. So, in terms of scope and scale, the body count definitely favours the Christians: over a million dead, several million refugees, and complete chaos beats out just about any numbers you can name.
Evidently you are incapable of discerning the differences between sacred & secular; offense & defense.
I am not confused as to the different translations of the Quran.
What I said was that you chose a Wahhabist translation, and then made your argument based not even on the text, but on a footnote added, editorially, by the translators.
I.e., you’re cooking your data.
Additionally, I’m not confused as to the relation of tafsir to the Quran.
What confuses me is the way your arguments keep morphing into different, unrelated arguments whenever one of your points is challenged.
I’ll say it again. Do you understand why it’s not scholarship to use a translator’s footnote as if it were part of an original text?
Evidently you are incapable of discerning the differences between sacred & secular; offense & defense.
Evidently you are incapable of discerning the differences between excuses and reasons. For instance: claiming that the attack on, and occupation of, Iraq, was for defence? Excuse. Please remember also that the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, one Osama bin Laden, consistently states that the reason he planned the attacks was to get the US out of the Muslim holy land. Bush-baby and his team spawned the “Oh, they hate our freedoms” bullshit, and y’all seem to have swallowed it complete.
If you have the time, please answer this: how the absolute buggeryfuck is bombing, invading, and occupying a country which has not attacked you considered defense? Iraq did not attack the US. Iraq did not threaten the US. No country in the world could effectively threaten the US, since the US had over 700 bases around the world in 2004. Anyone who even thought of attacking the US would know that their entire fucking continent would soon be glass.
In addition, consider this table: it shows the world military spending (estimated, of course, but at least reasonably accurate). Let me draw your attention to the figures on lines two and three:
US spending – $623 billion
Rest of world (all but US) – $500 billion
Does that suggest anything to you? Do you imagine that the US is under threat? Let me add that Iran, the supposedly greatest threat to the entire world since Attila the Hun, spends about $4.3 billion.
Let me push the point further by directing you to a brief history of US interventions around the world. Note in particular the escapades in the Middle East.
Also for your delectation, I provide the School of the Americas, recently renamed as the Western Hemisphere Institute of Security Cooperation. Read the article about the two priests sentenced to five months in prison for attempting to protest torture training, then tell me again how Muslims are evil and the US is good.
Also, why does Ben hate our troops, who are currently being killed and maimed in defense of a foreign Islamic government?
I used to have such fun with the Infancy Gospel of Thomas in college. There was just something hilarious about little Jesus smiting folks left and right. Well, to a then-agnostic.
Then I became a Christian after reading the canonical Gospels, but I find that I am frequently all alone in this religion. The Jesus part of it, I mean, not the 19th century based American hybrid of Christianity that keeps annoying everyone half to death.
Clutch414…OMG….that song never fails to leave me in giggle fits.
Ugh. Why bother fighting about the Crusades and their origins? All sides have a point. Some fairly good points in there, and some really varying campaigns. Stick with the Clutch414 lyrical goodness. Part of ‘getting it’ is to at least acknowledge more than one aspect.
RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!
Hoosier X:
Why were they so gung ho about warring with the Midianites? All the Midianites had was a strip of land in the middle of the road.
It’s not that. It’s the abominations they performed with all those dead armadillos. That’s why they’ve been condemned to wear the Yellow Line ever since, saith the Prophet Hightower.
Thats a false charge, Rufus! Shrub should not have sacrificed any troops; he should have bombed Afghanistan & Co. back to the stone age and left them there. H.S.T. was a good example which Shrub should have followed.
Qetesh, go back and read Usama’s declarations of war from ’96 & ’98. Nothing we do or abstain from doing would alter Islam’s tactical or strategic objectives. Islam is a demonic obligation to conquer the entire world. Lower your fact shields and read 8:39, 9:29, 9:35 & Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387.
Libtards always ignore the fact that Saddam was subsidizing and offering sanctuary to terrorists who killed American citizens. He was also training AQ in addition to trying to bump of old man Bush. In any case, the cease fire violations stand alone as adequate casus belli. .
Gavin, I doubt your capacity and will to comprehend objective factual reality. Words have meanings, and many words share common meanings. None of the translations deviates far from the pack in the most important ayat.
The footnotes written by Hilali & Khan, while non canonical, serve to verify the obvious meaning of the ayat.
Qur’an, Hadith, Tafsir & Fiqh agree on the mandatory obligation to conquer the world. There is good reason for linking the evidence I use to Islamic source documents: it leaves fools with no excuse to claim mistranslation, perversion, distortion & twisting. Fiqh is based on the Qur’an. Here it is again:
O-9.8: The Objectives of Jihad
The caliph (o-25) makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (N: provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya, def: o-11.4) -which is the significance of their paying it, not the money itself-while remaining in their ancestral religions) (O: and the war continues) until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah Most High,
“Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book-until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled” (Koran 9.29),
That’s Islamic law, and it is based on one ayat: 9:29. Allah’s command is law. Its so simple that you libtards can’t comprehend it.
What minister of the Gospel is preaching holy war in what church?
Hmmmm. See: christian demonization and persecution of teh gaye. I do believe that some christian have created casualties in that war already…
Also see: christian demonization, harrassment, and persecution of people who are pro-choice. I’m not sure if there’s been anyone killed in that holy wars since Eric Rudolph was weaned off of his christian enablers. Lots of lives, families, and businesses ruined though.
Where Islam has sufficient strength and can get away with it, they murder, rape and burn. Not only in Darfur…
Where christianity has sufficient strength and can get away with it, they murder, rape and burn. Not only in the Deep South…
Righteous Bubba said,
Ben’s really pretty stupid. He’s like a comic-book version of an asshole.
I would like to suggest a slight amendment to that statement:
Ben’s really pretty stupid. He’s like a poorly drawn comic-book version of an asshole that thinks he’s a genius.
I also like how Christianists claim that Muslims want to conquer Europe and the US, yet all you hear are the Christianists clain that the USA is really a “Christian Nation” and that we “need to return to our roots.”
Project much Christianists?
[…] fair, and we stand corrected. Apparently Ben — with whom we’ve been having a perfectly nice, civil discussion in comments — is actually ‘dajjal,’ who posts with Beth at Miss Beth’s […]
Wow. The Alec Rawls thread was a lot more fun!
TM, you wrote as follows:
(Tender Mercenaries said, November 1, 2007 at 23:59:
Most people don’t act on these books.)
Sorry, TM, I must disagree with you there.
Facts in the Islamic Sacred text prove your statement wrong, if , that is, I presume, we are talking about those who claim they are Muslims.
Because I spend my days in the books they—the Muslims—pointed me to in my Quest to know Islam, I can tell you, there are few acts, if any at all, that I have witnessed Muslim do, from the most secular to the proud mujahid, that are not actions allowed, ordered, or praised by the Islamic Sacred text.
I’ve neither heart nor desire to argue with you or anyone else, nonetheless, I would assume, given you spend valuable time here, you would regard facts.
I do just that. And the easily provable facts are those I stated above.
( I bet a lot of Muslims have only a vague idea of what is in the Koran just like a lot of Christians have only a rudimentary understanding of the Bible. Move further away from the canonical texts and you’re likely to find even less knowledge.
Now some people may act on what the religious leaders tell them about these books, but that’s different. )
Indeed, point made. The Islamic preachers and teacher will teach the message of Islam, which is that that is found in their sacred texts.
Islamic Schools, in our nation and eleswhere, will likewise teach the message of Islam, which is that found in the Islamic Sacred texts.
(Most people deep down don’t give a shit about religion in everyday life. They may call themselves Christians or Muslims and they go through the motions (Sunday Mass, Friday prayers, etc.), but it’s an identity, not a way of life.)
There again, I do understand what you are stating.
Moreover, I know, in part what you stated there is true. Nonetheless, Islam is diffent.
I know that for a number of reason. Amongst those reasons, the fresh lesson that I just recently had with an extremely Secular Muslim (whom I extended nothing but an open heart and home to).
He turned hateful and threatening to me–and to Ayaan Hirsi Alian, who is an Atheist– when, she and I both, in seperate settings, and different forums, spoke of the Islamic Sacred texts.
Bottom line, facts show, as we have seen in Iraq, when push comes to shove, a Muslim lives by the book.
I state that only because I know what is the Kitab Allah.
I’m crunched for time here, but in short, all who claim to be Muslims will, at the minimum– and that is acceptable in Islam–live true to the pledge made by some of the very first Muslims who, at the second pledge at al-Aqaba, swore to the pledge of war.
It broke down this way: “The apostle spoke and recited the Quran and invited men to God and to commending Islam and then said: “I invite your allegiance on the basis that you protect me as you would your women and children.”
How would you, TM, protect your family?
That is what part of the core message of Islam. Hence, the Muslim is the brother of the Muslim. As such, Allah-ordered to defend, protect, hide, and cover for the Muslim.
Every bit of that, right out of the Islamic Sacred texts.
(A person’s proclaimed religion has little or no relevance on whether he or she is a generally good person or not.)
Agree. We define what we are by all we say and do.
Respectfully,
dl
(Tender Mercenaries said, November 1, 2007 at 23:59:
Most people don’t act on these books.)
Sorry, TM, I must disagree with you there.
Facts in the Islamic Sacred text prove your statement wrong, if , that is, I presume, we are talking about those who claim they are Muslims.
Because I spend my days in the books they—the Muslims—pointed me to in my Quest to know Islam, I can tell you, there are few acts, if any at all, that I have witnessed Muslim do, from the most secular to the proud mujahid, that are not actions allowed, ordered, or praised by the Islamic Sacred text.
WTF? That has not one fucking thing to do with what you quoted.
However, verily I say unto you that because you can be stupid in an infinite variety of ways, it must follow in Debi logic that you ARE stupid in an infinite variety of ways.
[…] Fun With Other People’s Religions (Pt. 1) […]
Debi writes: “I know that for a number of reason. Amongst those reasons, the fresh lesson that I just recently had with an extremely Secular Muslim (whom I extended nothing but an open heart and home to).
He turned hateful and threatening to me–and to Ayaan Hirsi Alian, who is an Atheist– when, she and I both, in seperate settings, and different forums, spoke of the Islamic Sacred texts.”
Let me see if I’ve got this right. You invited some homeless, non-head-scarfed, Muslim man into your house, sat him down in your kitchen, served him some pop-tarts with sprinkles, then asked him when he forsook his countrymen and gave up on jihad? And you were surprised when he didn’t respond well to your lecturing on the evils of his childhood/home-land religion? And you don’t understand why he yelled out “STFU” when Mz Alian harangued him about the irrationality of religion in a rational world while he was trying to relieve himself in your downstairs bathroom?
Who woulda thought.
(Righteous Bubba said,
November 3, 2007 at 2:10
[Tender Mercenaries said, November 1, 2007 at 23:59:
Most people don’t act on these books.]
Sorry, TM, I must disagree with you there.
Facts in the Islamic Sacred text prove your statement wrong, if , that is, I presume, we are talking about those who claim they are Muslims.
Because I spend my days in the books they—the Muslims—pointed me to in my Quest to know Islam, I can tell you, there are few acts, if any at all, that I have witnessed Muslim do, from the most secular to the proud mujahid, that are not actions allowed, ordered, or praised by the Islamic Sacred text.
[WTF?])
Bubba, to your WTF. You seem to be confused, wondering what the above is: let me break it down for you:
TM stated, “Most people don’t act on these books.”
To which I responded, stating, that the facts in those (Islamic Sacred text) books that TM stated most people don’t act on, those facts in those books prove TM’s statement inaccurate.
[RB: That has not one fucking thing to do with what you quoted.]
Since the only quoted material I had posted at this site, to this point to where you are responding, is the ahadith I quoted in my original e-mail sent to Ben and others, which, Ben then posted here, I must assume, that is the “quoted” material you are referring to.
The ahadith I quoted, which you state have nothing to do with the material in the Islamic Sacred text, are these:
To make the Heart Tender (Ar-Riqaq)
Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 76 :: Hadith 509
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Allah said, ‘I will declare war against him who shows hostility to a pious worshipper of Mine.
Jihad (Kitab Al-Jihad)
Dawud :: Book 14 : Hadith 2526
Narrated Anas ibn Malik:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, “There is no god but Allah” and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist).
Funerals (Al-Janaa’iz)
Bukhari :: Book 2 :: Volume 23 :: Hadith 483
Narrated Abu Huraira:
When Allah’s Apostle died and Abu Bakr became the caliph some Arabs renegade (reverted to disbelief) (Abu Bakr decided to declare war against them), ‘Umar, said to Abu Bakr, “How can you fight with these people although Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever said it then he will save his life and property from me except on trespassing the law (rights and conditions for which he will be punished justly), and his accounts will be with Allah.’
” Abu Bakr said, “By Allah! I will fight those who differentiate between the prayer and the Zakat as Zakat is the compulsory right to be taken from the property (according to Allah’s orders) By Allah!
If they refuse to pay me even a she-kid which they used to pay at the time of Allah’s Apostle . I would fight with them for withholding it” Then ‘Umar said, “By Allah, it was nothing, but Allah opened Abu Bakr’s chest towards the decision (to fight) and I came to know that his decision was right.”
Laws of Inheritance (Al-Faraa’id)
Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 80 :: Hadith 747
Narrated ‘Ali:
We have no Book to recite except the Book of Allah (Qur’an) and this paper. Then ‘Ali took out the paper, and behold ! There was written in it, legal verdicts about the retaliation for wounds, the ages of the camels (to be paid as Zakat or as blood money). In it was also written: ‘Medina is a sanctuary from Air (mountain) to Thaur (mountain). So whoever innovates in it an heresy (something new in religion) or commits a crime in it or gives shelter to such an innovator, will incur the curse of Allah, the angels and all the people, and none of his compulsory or optional good deeds will be accepted on the Day of Resurrection. . . . . And the asylum granted by any Muslim is to be secured by all the Muslims, even if it is granted by one of the lowest social status among them; and whoever betrays a Muslim, in this respect will incur the curse of Allah, the angels, and all the people, and none of his Compulsory or optional good deeds will be accepted on the Day of Resurrection.”
Jihad (Kitab Al-Jihad)
Dawud :: Book 14 : Hadith 2497
Narrated AbuUmamah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: He who does not join the warlike expedition (jihad), or equip, or looks well after a warrior’s family when he is away, will be smitten by Allah with a sudden calamity. Yazid ibn Abdu Rabbihi said in his tradition: ‘before the Day of Resurrection”.
“Oh you who believe! Fear Allah. . . . If you do not, take notice of war from Allah and his Messenger.” Al-Baqarah: 278-9
Now to your statement that the above ayat and the above ahadith have noting to do with what we were discussing, which is the Islamic Sacred text: Bubba, those are quotes from the Islamic Sacred text.
And in those quotes, the Islamic tenet that, no matter what a Muslim does, he should never be called an unbeliever or put out of the fold of Islam, if he, once he has uttered the shahada, is willing to remain, at the minimum, true to the band of Muslim believers.
These words from this hadith sum it up:
Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, “There is no god but Allah” and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously.
If the connection there between those words and the Islamic Sacred text misses you, and the connection between what is written in the Islamic sacred text and thus what is in those who claim to be followers of that faith, then, there is not much I can do to reason with you.
To “fracas_futile” he said,
(Let me see if I’ve got this right. You invited some homeless, non-head-scarfed, Muslim man into your house, sat him down in your kitchen, served him some pop-tarts with sprinkles, then asked him when he forsook his countrymen and gave up on jihad?
And you were surprised when he didn’t respond well to your lecturing on the evils of his childhood/home-land religion?
And you don’t understand why he yelled out “STFU” when Mz Alian harangued him about the irrationality of religion in a rational world while he was trying to relieve himself in your downstairs bathroom?
Who woulda thought.)
I guess, FF, since you provided the details to the above scenario, I can only say if I were as foolish as you were that the above is what I would have done.
For such idiocy, or those who dream-up such idiocy, I have no time.
Happy dreams, ff.
dl
(Rufus said,
November 2, 2007 at 1:55
. . . . our troops . . . are currently being killed and maimed in defense of a foreign Islamic government?)
Good point, Rufus.
What’s more, that is a point I have been pressing and laying on the table for as long as we have been doing the above. My son, amongst those sent to die in our effort to fortify a nation governed by Shiite Islamic Fundamentalist. Any American who supports our troops being spent in such an effort is a damn fool.
I am one Gold Star mother who prefers the “comfort” of facts in place of a Band-Aid soak in excrement handed to me from the Bush White House, telling me, my son died for our freedom.
Horst shit–He was spent in our nations effort to establish an Islamic Fundamentalist Government.
That is what Dawa is all about.
And Establishing the Dawa supported, Maliki lead government in Iraq, is, after all, our stated mission in Iraq.
Good point, Rufus. Indeed.
Respectfully,
dl
If the connection there between those words and the Islamic Sacred text misses you
Well Debi, the assertion was made that people don’t follow the holy books and you quote the books to say they do. Whether or not you agree with the initial assertion your evidence makes non-imbeciles chuckle.
Dear Debi
You do understand this is a humor site, no? Your attempt to proselytise a bunch of comedians shows the depth of your intolerance.
I can understand your need to justify the mission of your son, the US Infantryman. Justification of one’s family’s choices and actions is only natural.
Don’t you think your choice “to simply see, what one feeds on daily, if indeed, one is feeding of the Islamic Sacred texts” while making it your “duty to know our enemy” could lead to a distortion of the subject you study? Like maybe only seeing the texts that support your prejudices?
As Sadly, No!’s “Fun With Other People’s Religions” posts show, there are thousands of lines of text to choose from and not all lines of text can be taken at face value. All religious texts are interpreted by pastors, reverends, priests, yogis and imans. Even bible study is guided and schismatic.
Back to your “extremely Secular Muslim…[who] turned hateful and threatening…when [I] spoke of the Islamic Sacred texts.” Go ahead, provide a better explanation than I did.
(FF you wrote: Dear Debi
You do understand this is a humor site, no?)
My answer: no. I did not. Thanks for explaining that. That accounts for the lack or reality here. Thanks for pointing that out.
Prior to Ben sending me the post at this site that inferred I was a fictional character, I’d neither heard of nor visited this site.
[Your attempt to proselytise a bunch of comedians shows the depth of your intolerance.]
“Proselytise?” You really are a comedian, “no”?
(I can understand your need to justify the mission of your son, the US Infantryman. Justification of one’s family’s choices and actions is only natural.)
Indeed, you are a comidian.
(Don’t you think your choice “to simply see, what one feeds on daily, if indeed, one is feeding of the Islamic Sacred texts” while making it your “duty to know our enemy” could lead to a distortion of the subject you study? Like maybe only seeing the texts that support your prejudices?)
No sir. Not when I ask the Muslims to show me true Islam, and the books they delivered or the stores they pointed me to, were books I received, bought, and thus read.
(As Sadly, No!’s “Fun With Other People’s Religions” posts show, there are thousands of lines of text to choose from and not all lines of text can be taken at face value. All religious texts are interpreted by pastors, reverends, priests, yogis and imans. Even bible study is guided and schismatic. )
As I stated, FF, I take the interpretation Allah gave to Muhammad, and Muhammad gave to his companions, and his companions gave to the ummah. And once to the Ummah, the best scholars of Islam and of the Science of Arabic then all agreed upon and sanctioned as the Law of Allah.
(Back to your “extremely Secular Muslim…[who] turned hateful and threatening…when [I] spoke of the Islamic Sacred texts.” Go ahead, provide a better explanation than I did.)
Sorry, FF, life demands we have priorities, and your request there is a cost of my time. For now, providing that to you is by no means a priority.
Happy trails to you.
dl
I love her quotes. I am a Muslim, and I read this:
As a relatively necessary statement that
1. Muslims shouldn’t be killing each other over trivial doctrinal disputes. (Even though, in the modern world, they are.)
2. That life is going to be a struggle for some Muslims in one place or another until the end of the world, and history has borne that out.
There are no meetings. Or, at least, I haven’t been invited.
Mandos, and thanks for joining the conversation here; good to have you along.
(They say this is comedy site, nonetheless, we are talking–at least I am for a bit here–seriously.)
With respect to your comments on the following hadith;
Jihad (Kitab Al-Jihad)
Dawud :: Book 14 : Hadith 2526
Narrated Anas ibn Malik:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, “There is no god but Allah” and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action;”
To your statement above: You are Muslim, thus, when you question the veracity of the above hadith, which I quoted, surely you do so mindful you are declaring untrue not my statements but those of Allah, spoken by his Messenger, Abu al-Qasim.
My point is, Mandos, if you study your religion as I do, you then know, that Islam really has a ton of elasticity to it. As the above hadith shows.
In the above hadith, in one breath as it were, Muhammad gave all believers both strict orders as well as expansive leeway when they fail to comply with the strict orders. Allah, via his Messenger, allowed that in Islam. Hence my statements.
Here’s another hadith that shows that:
The Book of Zakat (Kitab Al-Zakat)
Muslim :: Book 5 : Hadith 2175
Abu Dharr reported: I went out one night (and found) the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) walking all alone. There was no man with him. I thought that he did not like anyone walking along with him. So I began to walk in the light of the moon. He, however turned his attention to me and saw me and said: Who is this? I said: It is Abu Dharr. Let Allah make me as ransom for you. He said: Abu Dharr, come on. He (Abu Dharr) said: So I walked along with him for some time and he said: The wealthy persons would have little (reward) on the Day of Resurrection, except upon whom Allah conferred goodness (wealth). He dispensed it to his right, left, in front of him and at his back (just as the wind diffuses fragrance) and did good with it (riches). I went along with him for some time when He said: Sit here. And he made me sit at a safe place and there were stones around it, and he said to me: Sit here till I come to you. He went away on the stony ground till I could not see him. He stayed away from me, and he prolonged his stay. Then I heard him as he came back and he was saying: Even if he committed theft and even if he committed fornication. When he came I could not help asking him: Apostle of Allah, let Allah make me ransom for you, whom were you speaking on the stony ground? I heard nobody responding to you. He (the Holy Prophet) said: It was Gabriel who met me by the side of the stony ground and said: Give glad tidings to your Ummah that he who died without associating ought with Allah would go into Paradise. I said: Gabriel, even if he committed theft and fornication? He said: Yes. I said: Even it he committed theft and fornication? He said: Yes, I again said: Even if he committed theft and fornication? He said: Yes, even if he drank wine.
———————————————————————————————-
As such, every Muslim, from the most secular Muslim to the proud mujahid, can find sanctioning of their actions in the Islamic sacred text, if you know what is in those texts.
Because, as the above ahadith, and more, shows, irrespective of any sin, or any good, that a Muslims does he should never be culled out of the fold of Islam.
What more can a Muslim do besides those acts forbidden or those permitted or obligatory?
Thus, repeatedly, it is stressed, the most important thing in Islam is that one, at the minimum, remains true to the brotherhood. True to the basic invitation that Muhammad–who was clearly a man with great vision, as such, when Islam was in its germination stage, he saw and thus imported into Islam, many pre-Islamic Arabian traditions that would aid and fortify his quest, amongst those, selah rehmi—first delivered to those that Gabriel instructed him to approach.
Thus this overture, which he posed to the first of his would-be converts, his tribesman, the Banu ‘Abd al-Muttalib:
He said, ‘Banu ‘Abd al-Muttalib, I have been sent to all men in general and to you in particular. Now . . . which of you will swear an oath of allegiance to me to become my brother, my companion, and my inheritor?’ (Tab. vi, p. 91)
(that to soon be available for inheritance, of course, was war booty.)
He said that to those who knew the substance of the Arabian pre-Islamic tradition of selah rehmi (good treatment of one’s kindred, to include the guarantee of protection of life, honor, and property; the assurance of the help and support from your clansman and kinsman to accomplish that end).
The oath of allegiance to that is, in truth, the branch on which Islam budded and then flourished.
(Hence, the sever penalty to those who, breaking that oath, choose to leave Islam.)
Not long after this, of course, came the pacts at Aqabah. The second pack of Aqaba being the pledge of war.
Because of the oath taken there, “when God intended to honour [sic] them [the first few Muslims] and to help His apostle and to strengthen Islam and to humiliated heathenism and its devotees,” He did so by the strength in the oath taken there at Aqaba. [Sirat Rasul Allah; ibn Ishag, p.202]
And what was that oath? “I am of you and you are of me. I will war against them that war against you and be at peace with those at peace with you.” [ibid. p. 204]
The above paraphrased, God helped his apostle and “strengthen Islam and . . . humiliated heathenism” by making the defending of the Prophet and his religion a core tenet on Islam.
Back to the leeway in Islam: this next hadith leaves out the merciful and simply adds some of the various methods in which one can meet their Islamic obligation to partake in jihad:
Jihad (Kitab Al-Jihad)
Dawud :: Book 14 : Hadith 2497
Narrated AbuUmamah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: He who does not join the warlike expedition (jihad), or equip, or looks well after a warrior’s family when he is away, will be smitten by Allah with a sudden calamity. Yazid ibn Abdu Rabbihi said in his tradition: ‘before the Day of Resurrection”.
Back to why I state, those who claim to be Muslims are those who live by the guidelines provided for them in the Islamic Sacred texts–this sums that up:
“It is not permissible for any human being to rush onto the field and charge another [Muslim] with unbelief on the basis of opinion . . . otherwise the torrent would flood the valley floor, and not a Muslim would remain on the face of the earth, except a few.” [Reliance. p.952]
Mandos, as a Muslim, you know there is no end to the number of “enormities.” The scholars of Islam recognize that as well. So did the Prophet. Because of that, the above ahadith. As well as the above consensus.
Why do I refer to “the Reliance” as a one of the reliable sources on which to take info on what is lawful and unlawful in Islam?
Because that book is the product of the best scholars of Islam and scholars of the science of Arabic–If men such as Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Nasa, abu Dawud, ibn Kathir, and others just like them do not know Islam, no one can.
Amongst that list of enormities listed in Reliance, [31], the enormity of, “Thinking badly of a Muslim or not giving him the benefit of the doubt.”
So too, the enormity of, “abandoning the sunna” and “harming the friends of Allah (awliya’) and enmity towards them.”
My point, defending the Prophet, his religion, and those in his ummah is a salient Islamic command and tenet. One can do a lot, and still be a Muslim, but if one breaks their oath of allegiance to above, that’s a serious offence.
Hence my statements, that those who claim to be Muslims are indeed those that use the Islamic Sacred texts as their guide, live by what is in those texts—there is actually much elasticity in Islam.
Respectfully,
dl
“Libtards always ignore the fact that Saddam was subsidizing and offering sanctuary to terrorists who killed American citizens. He was also training AQ in addition to trying to bump of old man Bush. In any case, the cease fire violations stand alone as adequate casus belli.”
Classic…explain again how sheep’s bladder may be used to prevent earthquakes.
Hence my statements, that those who claim to be Muslims are indeed those that use the Islamic Sacred texts as their guide, live by what is in those texts—there is actually much elasticity in Islam.
So whatever point you purport to prove about Islam is irrelevant because you can make it say anything.
You’re a classic internet kook Debi. You don’t know when the very very long arguments you’re making implode. I suggest abandoning the internet for the medium of paper attached to light-posts with electrical tape.
What’s with the “Gospel of Thomas” thing? The “Gospel of Thomas” isn’t part of the bible, Christians believe the bible dumbass
Had a certain dumbass read the post, said dumbass would have found an acknowledgement of that right in the post that the dumbass is complaining about because he is a dumbass.