Iraq was a genocide.

Collateral damage and the casual forming of sectarian, city-cleansing death squads are tragedies, not crimes.

So there.

Hispaniola?

Those darn facts are always liberally biased.

Remember, these are the same geniuses who believe Ayn Rand’s psychotic logic that the natives didn’t have the same type of property/debt banking structure as the sophisticated europeans, and therefore land could not be “taken” from them. since they had no western european concept of ownership, they had no rights to the very land they fought so bitterly to protect–or even any right to life itself. Got it? Just like there are no Palestinians, there never have been any Palestinians, and the land formerly known as “Palestine” is just a liberal myth created by anti-semites (as per Dennis Miller).

As an actual expert on Native Americans and Native American history, I would like to say unequivocally that, while Charen is technically correct about the nature of Native mortality, she is completely full of shit. Mortality from those diseases was greatly expanded as a direct result of European and later American policies including displacement, war, and confinement to reservations too small to support their populations. Likewise there is a continuous stream of genocidal incidents from the Pequot War and Powhattan War in the British colonies, the Fox and Natchez wars by the French in the Great Lakes and Louisiana, and the Spanish Reconquista in the Southwest. You left out one of the most effective, which was the efforts by American miners to destroy the Indians of central California. Also, American policy always focused on the destruction of Native cultures and expulsion of Indians from American territory up to the 20th century.

So if Osama bin Laden sent his minions over to America infected with Ebola, and thousands died, that wouldn’t be genocide, just a tragedy?

As a non-expert on Native Americans and Native American history, I would like to say unequivocally that Charen is completely full of shit(w/apologies to DrDick).
Everything she has ever written or said has been utterly batshit, off the wall, where the fuck did that come from, crazy. What she has written here doesn’t surprise me one bit.

Ah. I see.

So 9/11 was TEH WORSTEST MOST CATASTROPHIC THING to ever happen to any country ANYWHERE IN HISTORY!!! but the systematic killing and (let’s face it) ethnic cleansing of Native Americans? Merely a minor tragedy in the pursuit of Manifest Destiny, and nothing to fret over!

“Elbow room, elbow room, gotta gotta get us some elbow room…”

Lemme guess. Criticizing the stupidity of wingers IS “genocide.” Just like criticizing the stupidity of wingers is also fascism, and a violation of “free speech!!”

Doesn’t O’Reilly have a special hatred for illegal immigrants carrying infectious diseases?

Oh Tubes, thank you, here he is agreeing they were “biological weapons”:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200504190002

I think most any statement that begins “Medved reminds us” can be safely excused from serious discussion.

DrDick has the correctly answered this frequently trotted out argument. Basically, the imperialism apologists don’t get that it isn’t how people die, it’s what the perpetrators are trying to do.
Most of the Armenians wiped out by the Ottomans starved to death or died of disease. A big chunk of the Jews in the Holocaust including Anne Frank died of disease and hunger. Both are still genocides. It doesn’t matter if the Mississippian culture, for example, collapsed under the weight of inadvertently introduced disease when Europeans made every effort to kill or dispossess every Native American they came across. The Mississippians just died out before the Europeans got to their number.

Off the top of my head (over 30 years since any history course)

1. Disbursement of blankets from small pox victims to indigenous people in colonial Connecticut.

2. Deliberate extermination of the American bison, the staple of plains tribes’ food and shelter.

3. Forcible removal of children from native American families to be educated in residential schools.

Sounds like genocide by Charen’s definition.

A. Fucking. Mazing.

Clown on Glenn Beck just yammed about how we have a $3 trillion budget and “why can’t we live within that?”

Oh, I don’t know, you fuckwit, maybe it’s because of YOUR GODDAMN PREZNIT who decided to start a FUCKING IMMORAL ILLEGAL WAR for NO FUCKING REASON and then decided to keep funding for it off the goddamn books so as to hide its cost. And his FUCKING BAILOUTS FOR EVERY GODDAMN GREEDY CEO in the country doesn’t help either.

Christ. Dumbshits.

Epidemics don’t usually make a permanent dent in population levels. Survivors can pass along their immunity to their children, and, since there’s less competition for resources, families will tend to produce a few more children than normal until the population is back where it belongs.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me this is part of a wingnut pattern they seek to establish, regarding distortions of such concepts as “malice” and “intent.”

Like giving smallpox infested blankets to Native Americans; whoopsie! Who could have known?

It’s just a tragic accident.

Likewise, even though they ignored cooler and wiser heads counseling against the Iraq war, they will maintain it was simply bad luck and unforeseen events, even though it was friggin’ foreseen.

But not by them… so, in a theological twist which escapes me logical facilities, they proclaim themselves blameless.

Uh, what did you think would happen when you filled your white hat with blood?

See, here you go, you revisionist liberals look at our proud history where we came to this barren land and allowed the Indians to teach us how to farm here and grow corn and hunt and trap and keep from eating the corpses we were digging up, and just because we displaced them from all their land and millions died without ever being able to rebuild like Europe did from the plagues, you’ve got to moan and groan every year like you’re ashamed or something.

Epidemics don’t usually make a permanent dent in population levels. Survivors can pass along their immunity to their children unless there aren’t any survivors, given the particular virulence of the new diseases.

May I recommend 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus? There was a lot more going in the Americas than is commonly understood. If the book’s premise is accurate, the entire Amazon Basin was a man-made agricultural experiment.

So, in the weeks following 9/11/2001, when the World (including those faggy fag French bastards and godless heathens of the Middle East ) denounced terrorism and rallied in support of America, they were just experiencing not-white, not-American, not-Xtian guilt?

Shit. I knew it was too good to be true.

Really, the only logical explanation is that American jets were carrying passengers infected with Terrorist’s Syndrome, and Nature simply took its course. And who among us can stop Nature?

Dr. Dick is correct, Most of the Native American deaths in the 16th and 17th centuries were inadvertent, the diseases being spread by contact. (and BTW, the attempts to spread smallpox via blankets failed.) The Pilgrims settled at the spot of a local Indian village abandoned after being wiped out by disease spread by fisherman. But, had the situation been reversed and it had been the native Americans who built ships and sailed across the Atlantic the outcome would have been largely the same, diseases spread from Europe and Africa to the Americas to a virgin population.

HOWEVER, Charen ignores the rest of the story, the deliberate attempts to force the native population form their land, attempts to enslave them (sometimes successful, sometimes not), treating the Americas as if it were “empty” land to the taking. THAT part was genocide and the fact that it was the unplanned transmittal of disease that greatly aided the European takeover is not an excuse.

Epidemics don’t usually make a permanent dent in population levels. Survivors can pass along their immunity to their children

True, but it immediately weakens the population and makes them less able to defend themselves from invasion, enslavement and starvation.

(and BTW, the attempts to spread smallpox via blankets failed.)

Lord Amherst respectfully begs to differ. He did give them blankets with smallpox one fall and a smallpox epidemic did break out by the following spring.

On Medvied, those who can’t do, act. Those who can’t act become movie critics, which of course qualifies them to talk about politics.

Charen is an idiot: whether or not there were epidemics, the fact remains that the Native Americans were the subject of extermination. Those efforts were just helped along by a lack of immunity.

Woodrowfan: had the situation been reversed and it had been the native Americans who built ships and sailed across the Atlantic the outcome would have been largely the same, diseases spread from Europe and Africa to the Americas to a virgin population.

Probably not, actually. If that were the case, then Europeans who settled in America would have died of the native diseases, wouldn’t they?

In fact, the Great Columbian Exchange was not very symmetrical with regard to diseases. There weren’t many new diseases in the New World to which Europeans were unused – the only major ones were syphilis and yellow fever. The reason for this is a bit unclear – but it probably had something to do with the Europeans having far more domesticated animal species, so far more opportunities for new diseases to arise via zoonosis.

Epidemics don’t usually make a permanent dent in population levels. Survivors can pass along their immunity to their children

This is a very silly statement. Is this based on the fact that, I don’t know, there are more people living in England now than there were immediately after the Black Death?

1) People who participate in genocide are evil.
2) America’s forefathers were blessedly perfect and moral in every sense.
C/ America’s forefathers could not have participated in genocide.

Wingnut logic beats history every time, beeyotches.

Meanwhile, the NY Post is claiming that Ann Coulter has broken her jaw and is having it wired shut. The possibilities for snark abound. Will she share her oxycontin with Rush? Will she transmit bile-filled thoughts via ESP? What did she say to get punched that hard?

Epidemics don’t usually make a permanent dent in population levels. Survivors can pass along their immunity to their children

Um. Not if the population as a whole has such little variability in that part of their genome that such immunity doesn’t exist in any meaningful way…

There’s a great chapter on this topic in 1491. As a complete non-expert in this field, I can’t speak to the book’s accuracy, but as a reasonably informed layperson I found it persuasive.

Sorry, but I got distracted and didn’t really get to the point.

What makes invasion and genocide different is you have another population moving into the gap to grab all the extra land and resources. The invading population also tends to demonize and target the survivors. So doesn’t make a difference if the victims of the invasion/ethnic cleansing/whatever are killed by bullets, machetes, starvation or disease. What makes it a genocide is if the population itself is not allowed to recover.

What did she say to get punched that hard?

I’d wager it was a statement involving (a) President-Elect Obama and (b) a word beginning with “N”.

(I had no idea Condi had it in her…)

Meanwhile, the NY Post is claiming that Ann Coulter has broken her jaw and is having it wired shut.

That must have been one HUGE cock!

What Charen fails to note is that the commander of Fort Pitt actually did deliver smallpox-infected blankets to the Indians prior to Bouquet’s arrival. The fact that Bouquet and Amherst wanted to do it is just the germ-tainted cherry on the genocidal sundae.

Almost every nation is founded on death and mayhem. People like Charen have to fucking accept that fact and get over this perpetuated myth of American exceptionalism, as if Jesus just laid the country down and everything was smiles and sunshine.

Here you liberals go again, blaming white people for the ills of this world. The Native Americans didn’t have any concept of landownership. They considered the land to belong to “Mother Nature and Father Sky.”

I bet you liberal “intellectuals” didn’t know that, after the American Revolution, one of the first acts of Congress was to order the printing of Bibles in native tongues, in order to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the native pagans.

Contrary to the usual PC myth, the Puritans were not racist. In fact, in Masschussets Bay Colony, colonists could, and did recieve the death penalty for murdering natives. But since the PC historical revisionism that has taken hold of western universities since the “sainted” 1960s, this along with much important knowledge about American and Western History, has been lost to Western society at large, when it used to be our birth right.

“Accidents happen” in this case is just another form of plausible deniabilty. Wingnuts/nutjobs/whackjobs have perfected the art of defending Plausible Deniability ever since their Holy Icons, the republican gangsters, started using it as a tool to avoid hanging.

As always, wingnuts/nutjobs/whackjobs are a shitmoat of irony and projection. Their main talking points like “family values”, “take responsibility”, etc etc are the very things they don’t even attempt to live up to.

Has anybody ever made a full list of all the ironic actions the Wingnuts/nutjobs/whackjobs do everytime they utter a talking point? I would try, but I have only about 50 more years left on this earth and only 600 GB of spare HD storage.

Meanwhile, the NY Post is claiming that Ann Coulter has broken her jaw and is having it wired shut.

Did she also have a backwards B on her cheek and claim to have been mugged by a black guy wearing a shirt with “Gangstaz 4 Baraq”?

> I bet you liberal “intellectuals” didn’t know that, after the American Revolution, one of the first acts of Congress was to order the printing of Bibles in native tongues, in order to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the native pagans.

This guy HAS to be an imposter. Nobody, except wingnuts/nutjobs/whackjobs, is this self unaware and stupid.

Wait… I guess I rebutted my own point. Silly me.

(I hate wordpress)

Probably not, actually. If that were the case, then Europeans who settled in America would have died of the native diseases, wouldn’t they?

I wasn’t clear, I meant, had the Americans traveled to Europe instead of the other way around, then the diseases still would have been transmitted as the Americans had no natural immunity. It was who traveled where I was trying to reverse, not who carried what diseases.

And I second the vote for “1491”. I used it when I was putting together my lessons for my early American history class.

Commander of the Scottish…whatever your name is:

Yes, they got along so well that they were slaughtering each other 50 years later in King Philip’s War. The settlers were so moderate towards the natives that they attacked the Narragansett tribe, which had remained neutral, and slaughtered over 300 of them.

Your history is one written with blinders on.

Here you liberals go again, blaming white people for the ills of this world. The Native Americans didn’t have any concept of landownership. They considered the land to belong to “Mother Nature and Father Sky.”

Bzzt. Wrong answer. They didn’t fence their land, which isn’t the same thing, nor did they engage in monocultural farming practices, both of which led tracts of land to appear untended to European eyes.

So speaking of revisionism, how ’bout you come back when you know something about Native Americans that isn’t derived from Dances With Wolves, ‘kay?

> DrDick has the correctly answered this frequently trotted out argument. Basically, the imperialism apologists don’t get that it isn’t how people die, it’s what the perpetrators are trying to do.

One must also wonder about the response to Katrina, as well as the response to the first planes hitting on 911. Nothing was done after plenty of warning.

More of that Plausible Deniability, so beloved by republican gangsters.

More cases of plausible deniability from our fun-lovin’ republican gangster overlords:

911 – “nobody could have forseen it” (just a few weeks after the n-th wargaming of a passenger airplane attack on the WTC)

Katrina – “nobody could have forseen it” (after chimpo denied increasing levee building funds)

I’m sure others can come up with more.

It seems the real reason that republicans are such failures at governance is that they’re too busy figuring out schemes to avoid getting hanged for their crimes.

Epidemics don’t usually make a permanent dent in population levels. Survivors can pass along their immunity to their children

True, but it immediately weakens the population and makes them less able to defend themselves from invasion, enslavement and starvation.

…which then makes it harder to defend against disease. If you go over to an immunologically naive group of people, enslave the entire population, work them for 14-16 hours a day in swamps full of malaria, don’t feed them, and murder their friends and family on a whim, it’s maybe a teeeny bit disingenious to claim that the massive death toll from disease had nothing to do with you.

It’s similar to the problems faced by the African slave population later brought over to replace the (obliterated) native American population; birth rates were devastatingly low and survival rates were incredibly poor due to white-enforced labor, malnutrition, and just plain old misery. But hey, I guess if you shove someone off a building, *technically* it’s gravity and the ground that killed them!

Suppose I’m out “exploring” in your neighborhood and I “discover” your house and decide to “colonize” it.

Of course, I have to kill you and your family because you’re all savages.

See? I’m not a thief, I’m a pioneer!

– Chris Rock

But the overwhelming majority of those deaths were attributable to diseases carried involuntarily by Europeans and spread to natives who had no natural immunities to these pathogens. That is a tragedy, but not a crime.

/

One thing that seems to get forgotten in these discussions is that the Europeans weren’t all complete morons. Sure, at the beginning it was an accident. They showed up and people started dying. Oops. However, even then people knew a least something about how disease worked (see “smallpox infected blankets”). They had to know what they were causing to happen.

And they didn’t give a shit.

That is genocide, you ignorant, malodorous, dishonest apologist for ethnic-cleansing.

Whoops. what I meant to do was:

But the overwhelming majority of those deaths were attributable to diseases carried involuntarily by Europeans and spread to natives who had no natural immunities to these pathogens. That is a tragedy, but not a crime.

One thing that seems to get forgotten in these discussions is that the Europeans weren’t all complete morons. Sure, at the beginning it was an accident. They showed up and people started dying. Oops. However, even then people knew a least something about how disease worked (see “smallpox infected blankets”). They had to know what they were causing to happen.

And they didn’t give a shit.

That is genocide, you ignorant, malodorous, dishonest apologist for ethnic-cleansing.

Dr. Dick
“I would like to say unequivocally that, while Charen [insert any republican here] is technically correct about the nature of Native mortality [insert any controversial issue here], she is completely full of shit.”

Fixed.

(Preview, please come back)

Here you liberals go again, blaming white people for the ills of this world.

Right, cuz Africans have a long history of killing Europeans.

Nice try. Next?

Oh,happy days. I just got a xmas wish early!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/25/ann-coulters-jaw-wired-sh_n_146248.html

It DOES just get better and better, no?

Oh, Commanderguyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy…

Although Native Americans may not have been living exactly on the spot upon which they settled, there were an estimated 14,000 Algonquian Indians in the surrounding Chesapeake area. They came to be known as the Powhatan Confederacy, after the name the colonists called their powerful chief, Powhatan, and lived in several dozen self-governing communities. Soon the settlers started to take over the area, which they justified by saying that the indians were not Christians, but rather savages who had no rights over the land.

Powhatan welcomed the settlers, and attempted to form an alliance with them to take over some of the surrounding communities which he did not yet control, and to obtain new supplies of metal tools and weapons. He soon found out that the settlers were there not to live among them peacefully, but to invade and conquer. The resulting war lasted until the English captured his daughter Matoaka, later nicknamed Pocahontas, after which the chief accepted a treaty of peace.

yea, them Euro settlers were really peaceable folks…

one of the first acts of Congress was to order the printing of Bibles in native tongues, in order to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the native pagans.

Oh, hey, isn’t that just fuking wonderful and non-racist to be inflicting your paternalistic Holy Daddy on people who were living just perfectly fine without it.

Here’s a holiday suggestion – go fuck yourself, eh? And give us pagans back our cross, December 25th, and all the other stuff you assholes appropriated for your Jesus-festival.

In fact, in Masschussets Bay Colony, colonists could, and did recieve the death penalty for murdering natives.

Gee, ya think maybe they were showing some gratitude, you know, for the Injuns bailing their candy asses out? Isn’t that the story of Thanksgiving?

How nice of them not to harm the darkies, you would agree….

Of course, they were hanging their own women as witches, so there’s that thought too. They saved the First Nation an awful lot of trouble.

You see actor, thats exactly what I’m talking about. Leftwing, historical revisionism. Who wrote that piece of drivel. I bet you anything it was a leftwing professor, who in wanting to discredit western civilization, quite frankly spinned actual historical facts, into the anti-western smear piece, you just posted.

For all you know, the guy could be a historian for the said Indian reservation. Hardly biased, huh.

“Epidemics don’t usually make a permanent dent in population levels. Survivors can pass along their immunity to their children”

That’s kind of hard to do when bands of well armed men are trying to kill you in order to make sure the dent in population is permanent.

we did it and please let’s not pretend we don’t have innocent blood on our hands. That mind set is what allows people to bomb civilians if their skin color isn’t the same as ours.

Commander of the Scottish…whatever your name is:

Call him “Scotch” for short.

It makes it easier to get where his head is at. “Asshole” is too hard to type quickly.

Wow, what synchronicity! Just when Gates of Vienna revisits it’s guest writer El Ingles and the Surrender, Genocide, or What? question (as if that’s really the question).

Just another dispatch from wingnuttia;)

I bet you liberal “intellectuals” didn’t know that, after the American Revolution, one of the first acts of Congress was to order the printing of Bibles in native tongues, in order to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the native pagans.

Weren’t you trying to prove that whites weren’t pricks?

Woodrowfan: no, you were clear – I just didn’t read what you said very well. Sorry about that.

You see actor, thats exactly what I’m talking about. Leftwing, historical revisionism. Who wrote that piece of drivel. I bet you anything it was a leftwing professor, who in wanting to discredit western civilization, quite frankly spinned actual historical facts, into the anti-western smear piece, you just posted.

For all you know, the guy could be a historian for the said Indian reservation. Hardly biased, huh.

We’re infested with parody trolls, and only one of them is ever funny. RUGGED, release the badgers!!!!

Wow, there’s a commenter here who is so old he took part in the First Crusade 900 years ago?

I bet you liberal “intellectuals” didn’t know that, after the American Revolution, one of the first acts of Congress was to order the printing of Bibles in native tongues, in order to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the native pagans.

So that’s why the Cherokees were forced to leave their lands and go all the way to Oklahoma. Thanks for clarifying that for me.

Contrary to the usual PC myth, the Puritans were not racist. In fact, in Masschussets Bay Colony, colonists could, and did recieve the death penalty for murdering natives.

Maybe they weren’t racist, but they were sure stupid enough to believe that witches were real and executed some of them too.

Seriously though, because the colonists were in a fragile state in the early years, of course they didn’t want to have the natives get angry with them and wipe them out. It would only make sense then to make it a capital offense to murder a native so as to placate them.

One can point to an example here and there of kindness towards native americans, but that should not obscure the larger picture.

As for the disease thing mentioned above, it took a horrific toll on the native american population. Hernando de Soto, a Spanish explorer who trekked through the south east portion of the United States in the mid-16th century, came across recently abandoned towns and settlements. What had happened was that natives who caught smallpox from the Europeans ended up passing it on to tribes that never even saw a European.

The devastation wreaked by disease certainly made it easier for the Spanish to conquer the Aztecs and the Incas. This is not to say that the latter were benign people. It should be noted that they were brutal imperialists as well.

If Jared Diamond is correct, the death toll from disease was inevitable because the ancestors of the native americans migrated here before the domestication of cattle and thus never had a chance to develop the necessary immunity.

Weren’t you trying to prove that whites weren’t pricks?

Scotty/Pravda is so clueless he actually thinks forcing TEH BIBLE on people who were doing just fine without it is a positive thing, therefore being a patronizing prick is a virtue in his/its eyes.

BTW –

The Native Americans didn’t have any concept of landownership. They considered the land to belong to “Mother Nature and Father Sky.”

What the hell’s so wrong with that?

OH, right – they never developed the sophisticated European system of grabbing bits of the Earth and cutting each other’s throats over the “possession” thereof and the mega-spondulix thereby derived.

OMG OMG, the Native Americans were socialists!.

This explains a lot.

Coultergeist broke her jaw!

http://www.nypost.com/seven/11252008/gossip/pagesix/we_hear_______we_hear_140601.htm

C’mon, SadlyNaughts, step up to the plate with that world-famous 7th-grade snark!

OMG OMG, the Native Americans were socialists!.

So you see then, we had to wipe them out. Otherwise we would be living under the dictatorship of Rusell Means right now.

Coultergeist broke her jaw!

Karma’s a bitch, ain’t she?

goober, a day late and a dollar short.

Wouldn’t have it any other way, would ya, goob?

I especially loved this comment posted by someone at the NY Post in response to the blurb:

Sweet Ann is the foremost political humorist of our generation,and has the book sales to prove it. She is a latter-day Will Rogers.

Yeah, like Will Rogers had the Conservative Book Club to buy his writings in bulk to inflate the sales.

There’s no Such thing as Scotchtoberfest

Shorter Goober

“The Right WIng of America is Intellectually Bankrupt”

How about a nice Thanksgiving poisoning?

Colonists who survived the Good Friday attacks raided the tribes and particularly their corn crops in the summer and fall of 1622 so successfully that Chief Opechancanough decided in desperation to negotiate. Through friendly Indian intermediaries, a peace parley finally took place between the two groups. However, some of the Jamestown leaders, led by Captain William Tucker and Dr. John Potts, poisoned the Indians’ share of the liquor for the parley’s ceremonial toast. The poison killed about two hundred Indians and another fifty were then killed by hand. However, Chief Opechancanough escaped.

.

Isn’t Medved the genius who wrote that African-American’s should actually be thankful for slavery because otherwise they would be rotting in Africa ?
Charen and Medved would have put Juana Bormann and Streicher to shame if only given the chance .

Apparently it’s Obama who’s committed geneocide.

Yes, she might qualify for your Wingnut Ovda Week competition.

> How about a nice Thanksgiving poisoning?

I predict this event will be added to the list of wingnut/nutjob/whackjob Holy Days. Currently this list has on it:

*) the day OxyRush kicked his Oxy habit
*) the day Mooseburger incited her first white power riot
*) the day chimpo renamed Operation Iraqi Liberation (its true first name) to O.I.F.
*) the many days that wingnut Family Values Holy Fathers had their myriad divorces on (St. Ronnie, OxyRush, Newt, McPOW, etc)
*) the day that the dbl-wetsuit-n-dildo suicide was invented
*) the day OxyRush restarted his Oxy habit

Well, as a human being, I can sympathize with how much a broken jaw hurts.

If, indeed, it is really broken… she is bringing out a new book soon, and so low is my opinion of her, and so low has her recent profile been, that I would not be surprised if this was a publicity stunt, as speculated upon. (The lack of information is odd.)

Most dogs are more compassionate than Ann Coulter.

Most cats are more sensitive to other’s feelings than Ann Coulter.

Most creatures lying on their backs on the bottom of ponds are more worthy of my sympathy than Ann Coulter.

And yet, I give it. This is what makes me Not A Wingnut.

Anybody got a cigarette?

You put the dildo in the wrong place. You can send back the two wetsuits.

“As an actual expert on Native Americans and Native American history, I would like to say unequivocally that, while Charen is technically correct about the nature of Native mortality, she is completely full of shit.”
—

Sadly, No !!!

This is like saying that most of the people who died in World War I were actually killed by the Black Plague in the 1300s.

The “virgin soil” epidemics of the 1500s had nothing to do with the genocide of American Indians. The genocide of American Indians refers to specific colonial and U.S. policies to remove Indians from their land and the actions taken by U.S. citizens and their government to carry out these specific policies.

Fucking Pigman.

Not only is Limbaugh using “President Select” to refer to Obama, he’s suggesting people who call in critical of TEH ONE use a false first name so the Obama Gestapo who smeared Joe-the-Not-Plumber all over the media won’t be able to track you down and attack you.

Seems to me JTNP has done pretty well for his 15 minutes of fame – he’s looking at a C&W music deal, he’s evidently “written” a book… hardly the stuff of nightmares.

And he probably still hasn’t paid the taxes he owes, either.

“The Native Americans didn’t have any concept of landownership. They considered the land to belong to “Mother Nature and Father Sky.”
—

Sadly, No !!!

Where do you get your history from, the side of a Celestial Seasonings box?

Indian tribes have (and always had) a very highly developed land ownership system and philosophy. The eight billion different land treaties since the 1500s attest to this.

This is like saying that most of the people who died in World War I were actually killed by the Black Plague in the 1300s.

Well, yeah, if you round up and abbreviate and whatnot.

How about a nice Thanksgiving poisoning?

To be a hopeless pedant, Thanksgiving was strictly a Massachusetts Bay Colony gig in 1621. The settlers in Virginia were more mendacious and cantankerous from the get-go. The reason that the MA Bay folks wound up being just as stupid was a matter of forgetting that first winter and how many of them would’ve died if the locals hadn’t been friendlier. I’d be surprised if the Jamestown folks knew about that party they threw and if they knew, I’d doubt they gave a damn about what it should’ve taught the settlers.

And the genocidal justification language our stalwart apologist used in that column reminded me far too much of the BS the British government was spouting about Ireland. “Not our fault the Irish are suffering because of the potato blight. Sure, we forced them to rely on that as a principal foodstuff because we’re such selfish bastards we won’t let them keep better homestead farms and ship what they harvest for us across the Manx Sea. It’s their fault for being Roman Catholics and a lesser race anyway.”

Who wrote that piece of drivel.

Actually, it was Victor David Hanson.

See, I knew you’d go there.

Oh, and Commanderboy?

I just kicked YOUR ass! Hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

To be a hopeless pedant

Abandon all hope, ye who press enter here.

Most of the Native American deaths in the 16th and 17th centuries were inadvertent, the diseases being spread by contact. (and BTW, the attempts to spread smallpox via blankets failed.) The Pilgrims settled at the spot of a local Indian village abandoned after being wiped out by disease spread by fisherman.
—

This is wrong. By 1600 the virgin soil epidemics were over and the Abenaki population in the Northeast began expanding again. The forcible removal of Native Americans from New England from 1620 onward as a matter of official government policy is extremely well documented in 100,000s of pages of public documents in the Maine and Massachusetts archives and numerous scholarly books. Jill LePore, a Harvard professor, has done some excellent work.

I don’t think Charen and Medved give a shit whether what happened to Native Americans was genocide or not. They just want to reserve the branding rights for One Very Special Genocide That Was The Only Genocide In The History Of Genocides. Ask Andrew Tarsy what happens when you start throwing that “genocide” shit around too loosely.

Actually, it was Victor David Hanson.

See, I knew you’d go there.

pwned!

By the way, the descendants of the first Thanksgiving, the Mashpee Wampanoag Tribe will be doing a first light ceremony on Thanksgiving morning, if you’re near Cape Cod.

http://mashpeewampanoagtribe.com/

Has Miss Coulter consulted an attorney? From the sketchy information we have so far, it appears that a huge cock has violated her First Amendment right to free speech.

a huge cock has violated her First Amendment right to free speech

Damn chickens, always violating people’s rights.

The “virgin soil” epidemics of the 1500s had nothing to do with the genocide of American Indians. The genocide of American Indians refers to specific colonial and U.S. policies to remove Indians from their land and the actions taken by U.S. citizens and their government to carry out these specific policies.

OK, but she did mention “European settlers” rather than the US government. So there’s still that pesky example of deliberate genocide of something like 240,000 people on Hispaniola. Or Cortés and friends, who were undoubtedly assisted by disease, but he was still intent on killings lots of people and taking over an empire anyway.

There are probably other cases that I’m forgetting. Point is, pick whichever time period you like, it’s all bad. From the explorers to the settlers to the US government with Andrew Jackson.

We’re not all the same, us right-wingers. Some of us are spreading holiday cheer in the form of raising awareness of the needs of those most directly afflicted by the economic crisis:

I understand where you’re coming from Frodo, but all of this trickles down to the average Billy, like the Billy in this song:

Billy Wants a Job for Christmas

Dr BLT featuring Brian Benson
words and music by Dr BLT copyright 2008
http://www.drblt.net/music/BillyRockDemo2.mp3

The song is now available here,
http://www.drblt.net

and we’re continuing to work for the unemployed most directly afflicted by this worldwide economic crisis.

“The Native Americans didn’t have any concept of landownership.
Bear in mind that for purposes of colonial apologia, ‘concept’ is defined as ‘ability to enforce’.

If we’re talking about genocide apologia, we might as well cite Mark Steyn, for his explanation that the mass murders of Bosniacs by invading / irredentist Serbs was really brought upon the former by themselves by their higher birth rate.

You liberals talk about the atrocities committed by the English, French, and other European colonists with the same glee that Muslims talk about Timothy McVeigh. Why do they hold such fascination for you?

Liar.

Your buttboy brought this up, not us.

With all the threads available for BLT to spam with his sodbucket musickery, you can rely on him to pick the one about genocide.

The Truth said,

November 25, 2008 at 21:31

Blow it out your ass, pink boy.

You can’t pretend that American history doesn’t teach about them, or that they are officially denied, or celebrated by others – all things that are true about the Soviet, Turkish, Chinese, Japanese, Cambodian, and all manner of African slaughters.

Funny thing, tho, how BUSH has been reluctant to call Turkey out on the Armenian genocide…

Bush is one of us liberals now?

Oh, and Troofie?

That odd feeling on your bum…that’s your ass being kicked again by me.

Have a nice day!

Muslims talk about Timothy McVeigh
I am willing to believe that Muslims are always going on about Timothy McVeigh, and the reason that no-one notices is that they are speaking in Muslish.

“it appears that a huge cock has violated her First Amendment right to free speech.”

I’m hoping for a bag of dicks, myself.

For her! A bag of dicks for her!

Jeez, you guys.

I am willing to believe that Muslims are always going on about Timothy McVeigh, and the reason that no-one notices is that they are speaking in Muslish.

As opposed to 9/11, when all good Muslims, you know, 95% of them, stood with us as honorary Americans.

I’m hoping for a bag of dicks, myself.

Well, Santa Claus IS coming…

Santa Claus IS coming…

That ain’t milk in that glass.

A bag of dicks is not just for Xmas, remember. It’s for a lifetime. Are you prepared for the responsibility?

That ain’t milk in that glass.

That must have been one huge coc–

*snap*

So THAT’S how Coulter snapped her jaw!

You can’t pretend that American history doesn’t teach about them.

You don’t have to pretend because it is true. American history doesn’t teach about Native American genocide, which is the meta-point of Brad’s post. Most American history curricula tries to ignore, explain way, diminish, or cover up for the genocide of American Indians in ways similar to that employed by Moaner Charred-end. Most people who learn about the actual history have done so on their own by … umm … reading books on the subject not written by craven, self-dishonest apologists.

A bag of dicks is not just for Xmas, remember. It’s for a lifetime.

Nah. Just lunch.

We can argue over the definition of “virgin soil epidemics,” but they continued well into the 19th century as European and American colonial expansion pushed westward. The first recorded epidemics in the Pacific Northwest occurred in the 1770s. At most, true virgin soil epidemics were over on the Atlantic seaboard by late 17th century. The massive mortality among Midwestern tribes occurred in the middle to late 18th century and for the Great Plains and much of the Western US, it was in the early to middle 19th century. Even after the original epidemics, Native mortality from epidemic disease remained excessive into the 20th century. An 1898 smallpox epidemic among the Seminoles in what is now Oklahoma killed 10 ten times as many Indian Seminoles as Black Seminoles, despite their ancestors being among the first peoples exposed to the exotic diseases. I highly recommend Russell Thornton’s American Indian Holocaust for a good overview of the effects of epidemic disease. Native Americans had no comparable capacity to introduce epidemic diseases (other than syphilis) to Europe, as there were no native epidemic diseases in the Americas. Even syphilis was a relatively benign (though unpleasant) skin disease until it was transported to Europe and mutated into the current STD. The older forms continue today as pinto and yaws.

Again, it is not the proximate causes of death that are relevant it is the policies and actions of the Europeans that matter. From the outset they clearly intended to dispossess or destroy the Native peoples of the Americas. They employed a variety of strategies in doing so. They attempted to destroy Native cultures and incorporate the people into colonial society (though in a subordinate position), which was the predominate mode along the Eastern Seaboard, beginning with the earliest colonies. Official US Indian policy since Pres. Washington has been to assimilate Indians into white society. They also attempted to displace or relocate tribes away from white settlement beginning in the colonial period on a piecemeal basis, but exploding in the early 19th century. Most tribes on the eastern seaboard were located on small reservations in the 17th and 18th centuries after their populations had already collapsed. Finally they episodically attempted deliberate genocide. The earliest recorded episodes are the Pequot War (by Massachusetts Bay Colony), the Powhattan War in Virginia, and the Spanish Reconquista in the southwest, all in the 17th century. Such episodes continued all the way through the 19th century. We can also argue over the technical definition of genocide, but it is quite clear that the intent of the European and American colonists was the elimination of the Indians by one means or another. Further, the policies pursued by Europeans and Americans clearly contributed to ongoing excessive mortality among Native Americans (which continues to this day, though at less dramatic levels). Whether it is technically genocide, the Europeans clearly engaged in the systematic destruction of Native peoples.

And yes, Native Americans had clear notions of property rights and, in some cases ownership, though these varied from one region to another and differed from European ideas. In most Native societies (outside of Native California and the Northwest Coast), there was no notion of private or personal ownership of land. Those rights were held collectively by larger groups, with individuals holding use rights. For many, probably most, Native societies those were exclusive rights and groups sometimes fought over territorial claims.

Then of course there was the policy to kill off the buffalo, wiping out a specific resource of indigenous peoples in order to help bring them under control.

Used to hunt them from trains, I understand, settlers and travelers would kill thousands per day, and just leave them rotting on the prairie.

Pffft, manifestering destiny.

No, no, no. The concept of individual ownership is
(1) a hard-wired property of the human brain, and therefore a universal property of all cultures, so one might even call it an axiom of Natural Law if one were a conservative ideologue;
AND (2) unknown within any societies whose land was coveted by European explorers.

My attitude is the same toward all genocidal empires, whether it be by the British, Spanish, and French in the Americas, by the Russians in Asia, by the Turks in Armenia, the Chinese, the Romans, Timur the Lame, or anyone else. These actions are not a function of ethnic or racial identity, but a consequence of a particular political type, the imperial state.

the same glee that Muslims talk about Timothy McVeigh
apologists for Islamic violence are always referencing Timothy McVeigh

Spot the difference between these two claims.

Spot the difference between these two claims.

One clam is stinky and the other clam is fresh.

We can argue over the definition of “virgin soil epidemics,” but they continued well into the 19th century as European and American colonial expansion pushed westward.

You reference the Pacific Northwest; a lot of the coastal population of natives were still getting sick into the 20th century.

Smut Clyde –
The concept of private ownership is is a consequence of settled life, intensification of resource procurement, and increasing competition for resources , usually associated with intensive agriculture, but also found among some intensive collectors as in the Northwest Coast and Native California.

You are correct that they are always seen to be absent among peoples Europeans wish to dispossess, as are law, government, religion, and morals. This is a product of notions of Natural Law, which provided the rationales for a “just war” and imposition of colonial rule (as well as providing the basis for modern international law).

You reference the Pacific Northwest; a lot of the coastal population of natives were still getting sick into the 20th century.

As I indicated in my post, Native mortality from introduced diseases remained high into the 20th century. Indeed, Native mortality from a variety of causes remains excessively high today. The population minimums for various groups occurred at different times. For many New England and other coastal tribes it was in the late 17th or early 18th centuries. For the Southeastern Indians, it was initially in the 1750s, with a secondary decline in the 1830s owing to Removal. Some tribes saw their minimum in the early 20th century, though not the Northwest Coast which was rebounding by that point. For the US as a whole the low point is about 1900 when the total Native population had dropped to about 250,000, down from an estimated high of about 5-7 million in the US (7-10 million north of Mexico) at contact in 1539.

Truth-

I get the feeling that you just aren’t very bright.

Either that or a Coach Urban Meyer/SowellFan/Iris/RIM/Rupperto pure performance art troll. I guess that’s something, but I should add that you aren’t really good at it and can’t hold a candle to the classics.

As I indicated in my post, Native mortality from introduced diseases remained high into the 20th century.

Indeed you did and I jumped the gun.

the same glee that Muslims talk about Timothy McVeigh
apologists for Islamic violence are always referencing Timothy McVeigh

Spot the difference between these two claims.

There is no difference.

I kn haz wingnut welfare nao?

That ain’t milk in that glass.

Good bull, Boris.

One clam is stinky and the other clam is fresh.
Both clams were full of hilarity, but I was particularly inspired with jollity by the clam that Timothy McVeigh is an especially salient topic of discussion among Muslims.
When I’m on the way home from the pub I pass the Assyrian Club on Riddiford St. where there’s usually a half-dozen or so resettled Iraqis who’ve stepped out onto the footpath for a cigarette, but I can’t honestly say that the words Timothy or McVeigh stood out within the scraps I’ve overheard of their conversations…

The disease thing is fairly obvious isn’t it? The settlers came from more densely populated areas, and permanent settlements, or even large cities, where sanitation and waste disposal methods were shocking at best. In that situation, diseases run rampant, and if you don’t have a good immune system, you die very young.

The native people on the other hand, lived in smaller communities, which moved around more. Sewage in the drinking water would not have been an issue, nor would anybody have to live next to a midden. In those circumstances, the population would not be forced to develop a particularly strong immune system, and there would be fewer diseases going round.

So it is not surprising that the Native people suffered far worse from European diseases than the Europeans suffered from American diseases.

It is easy for what I shall call an “American history denier” (if intellectually dishonest) to dismiss the smallpox epidemics as mostly accidental, and dismiss most of the actual shooting and killing genocide as provoked warfare, but the most damning evidence is the slaughter of the buffalo.

What purpose could it possibly have served the settlers to wipe out the buffalo? They were mostly killed and left to rot, with very little meat or hide taken. The settlers KNEW it was genocide by proxy. It was a deliberate, systematic attempt to kill or control the native tribes.

Sadly, the doctrine of American exceptionalism does not allow room for white americans, present or past, to be guilty of any kind of crime or misbehaviour. And so we get shit like Charen.

Katrina – “nobody could have forseen it” (after chimpo denied increasing levee building funds)

After Kansas Joe McCoy and Memphis Minnie recorded When the Levee Breaks in 1929. And Led Zeppelin in 1971. I mean, jeez.

I can’t honestly say that the words Timothy or McVeigh stood out within the scraps I’ve overheard of their conversations…

How about Kamau Kambon?

How many mentions of Ann Coulter do we have in this thread? I haven’t heard this much about the jawbone of an ass since the story of Samson. HENNGH? HENNGH?

Coulters? I am flat out of ploughshare jokes.

Dr. Dick said:

even syphilis was a relatively benign (though unpleasant) skin disease until it was transported to Europe and mutated into the current STD. The older forms continue today as pinto and yaws.

So that’s where “Yet Another Wingnut Syndrome” (YAWS) came from. I always wondered…

Used to hunt them from trains, I understand, settlers and travelers would kill thousands per day, and just leave them rotting on the prairie.

Sarah Palin’s antecedents.

Jeez, guys. The election of Hussein X wipes the existence of Timothy McVeigh from history. Zuh.

And just you wait until President McCain releases the Michelle Hussein X “whitey” tape.

That the English, Spanish, and other European powers waged war on the native populations of America and Africa is not in doubt.

Um, because, you moron, we studied American History in school? And the slave trade was inexticably linked to American history as was the territorial hegemony of the early American Presidents?

And if you asked most Americans, they couldn’t find Russia on a map if you spotted them a continent.

Either continent.

So why should they care about Russian slaughters and pogroms and Cosssacks and that sort of stuff? You and your fascistic assholes taught them to pay attention only to their paychecks and how to shut their mouths and not cause trouble for your overlords.

Just a, you know, thought, Liar.

Yer a fucking idiot.

I get the feeling that you just aren’t very bright.

Well, I suppose you could understate it to this degree, but me, I prefer calling a spade a fuckign shovel.

Troofie, you’re a moron. Period.

Oh. And a liar.

I haven’t heard this much about the jawbone of an ass since the story of Samson.

It took a minute for that one to sink in. It’s get “stealth win” of the thread.

The older forms continue today as pinto and yaws.

Under Clause XIV(b) of the S,N! charter, someone is now obliged to make the one known joke about Treponema pallidum. OK, I’ll be straight man.
What’s “yaws”?

I’m not dumb but I can’t understand
Why she walks like a woman and talks like a man
My Mona. M-O-N-A Mona. Ma-ma-ma-ma Monaaaaah.

What’s “yaws”?

A leading cause of seasickness.

I like this rhetorical tic of telling people what they aren’t allowed to pretend. I’m going to start using it in every post from now on.

What’s “yaws”?

That’s a rather personal question.

lost its meaning through promiscuous overuse

Damn Viagra!

You guys can’t pretend you don’t know what yaws is.

A leading cause of seasickness.
FAIL. The correct answer is
“That’s very kind of you. I’ll have a double Glenfarclas. No, make it a triple.”

Smut, do I look like Colonel Chinstrap?

Is it just me or did this lady get all her information about Native land ownership from Disney’s Pocahontas?

“You think you own whatever land you land on
the earth is just a dead thing you can claim
but I know every rock and tree and creature
has a life has a spirit has a name…

you can own the earth and still
all you’ll own is earth until
you can paint with all the colors of the wind”

HAHA wow, I just love it when people who’ve seen a few movies think they’re experts on American Indian issues and beliefs. This lady is a moron.

For an excellent movie reference on the subject of Thanksgiving I refer everyone to the camp scene in Addams Family Values. Wednesday makes a great Pocahontas, I’d totally adopt her into my tribe.

Oh and by the way, I appreciate everyone’s well-articulated and erudite arguments about genocide and all that… but I just want to remind you guys that uhh… there’s a lot of us still around and we still have vibrant traditions and spiritual beliefs… so that genocide failed and we’d appreciate it if you stop referring to us as SAD or dead. I’m quite happy and very much alive thank you.

It’s more fun to make up our own definitions, tho.

As I indicated in my post, Native mortality from introduced diseases remained high into the 20th century.
—

As it did for Europeans in America. cf. diptheria, dysentery, smallpox, rubella, scarlet fever, etc. etc. etc.

My question is why this is a subject of such fascination to liberals as opposed to the slaughters perpetrated by, for example, the Russians as they expanded across Asia.

Because, unlike you, we don’t like to change the subject.

Doug Watts – Native mortality from these causes remained substantially higher for Natives than for whites or blacks and in many cases still does. In the late 19th and early 20th century it was often several times as high. My example above about differential mortality among the black and Indian Seminoles in 1898 is a good example. Native life expectancy has been lower than that of other Americans since 1900 (at which point the government started collecting the data), but has inched closer over the last century. Currently it is about 4 years less than the national average.

Why shouldn’t the treatment of the Native Americans be a big concern for Liberals?

Let’s put this into context.. we are talking about AMERICAN liberals here. Liberals ruled by the same government that did this shit. Liberals who live on the stolen land. Liberals who live in the same country as the survivors of the genocide.

The history of the USA is subjected to so much abuse and revisionism, all in the name of empowering present day american white male privilege and smugness. I’d say american liberals have a damned good reason for wanting to replace the mythology with proper history.

“With all the threads available for BLT to spam with his sodbucket musickery, you can rely on him to pick the one about genocide.”

It’s only “spam” and “sodbucket Musickery” to those who are unappreciative and the intellectually challenged. I’ve said it before, but it I’ll repeat it for brainwashing purposes, “My fans are few in number, but high in IQ points.”

Yes, BLT’s fan to IQ point ratio is something like 1:10

“My fans are few in number, but high in IQ points.”

Those would be the points they have accumulated over the years, but never actually used, right?

I’d say american liberals have a damned good reason for wanting to replace the mythology with proper history

Aw, Pups, haven’t you heard? Facts are stupid things! They’re hard…let’s go shopping!

Those would be the points they have accumulated over the years, but never actually used, right?

Rollover points.

Now, if only we could figure some way to have Republicans earn “play dead” points.

BLT should really be awake for his attempts at anthem rock.

Now, if only we could figure some way to have Republicans earn “play dead” points.

Unfortunately there is the continuing problem with old (and fairly senile) dogs and new tricks.

“Yes, BLT’s fan to IQ point ratio is something like 1:10”

“Those would be the points they have accumulated over the years, but never actually used, right?”

Nice try, both of you, but I think you are resorting to what they used to refer to in the old Bush/Gore presidential debates of 2000 as “fuzzy math.”

Actor212, you are the chest-thumping gift of idiocy that keeps on giving. I rarely have to refute your arguments

TRANSLATION:

My ass has just been kicked by Actor212.

Smut, any time the subject of Islamic violence is brought up, Timothy McVeigh is the immediate tu quoque response. Are you going to pretend that isn’t so?

Note the absence of a certain someone in this never-dying thread.

American history doesn’t teach about Native American genocide, which is the meta-point of Brad’s post. Most American history curricula tries to ignore, explain way, diminish, or cover up for the genocide of American Indians in ways similar to that employed by Moaner Charred-end.

Well, they generally do teach it, or at least mention it in passing. Sort of like “here are a bunch of details about the actual and folkloric aspects of how Columbus tried to get funding for his journey and what happened on it, and a sentence about how the Taino people of Hispaniola were all gruesomely murdered in the passive voice by some unmentioned agency; many people consider John Cabot, or Giovanni Caboto as he was known in Italy, to be the first European in North America …”

Often the worst atrocities committed by Europeans against Native Americans (and Africans) are spoken of in an abstract or statistical sense, and are contextualized as (a) unfortunate but unintentional tragedies or (b) regrettable but necessary evils on the path to progress. This is especially true in school textbooks, because basically a small group of American exceptionalists can stop a school from adopting a particular book, and economies of scale make publishers want to appeal to all influential groups, including those who actively seek ignorance and misinformation.

Smut, any time the subject of Islamic violence is brought up, Timothy McVeigh is the immediate tu quoque response.

Troofie, in the words of William Goldman, “That word…I do not think it means what you think it means”

Illiterate in two languages is not a step up, son.

I wonder if I could interest you

You couldn’t be of interest to anyone if you walked into a whore house with thousand dollar bills dripping out of your pockets, you lying scumbag.

And how about our challenges to you, Troofie, or is your ADHD so advanced you can’t even hold a thought for more than the time it takes to switch channels?

Troofie –
The reason liberals, and others on the left, bring up Timothy McVeigh is that the greatest domestic terror threat to the US is not Islamic jihadists. It is rightwing, white, christianist-racists who have committed far more terrorist acts than everyone else combined. It is not just Oklahoma City, it is the Atlanta Olympics, all of the bombings of abortion clinics and assassinations of doctors, attacks on national guard armories, assassinations of liberal public figures, bank and armored car robberies, and many, many others. Go check out the SPLC site or Dave Neiwert’s place sometime. Makes for mighty edifying reading.

BLT’s main problem is that it is hard to rock out with your cock out, when you don’t quite have enough for it to stick out further than your zipper.

The reason liberals, and others on the left, bring up Timothy McVeigh is that the greatest domestic terror threat to the US is not Islamic jihadists.

What’s more to the point, the only person talking about McVeigh is the fucking right wing troll.

That being the case, I wonder if I could interest you in populating the following “fill in the blanks.”

I wonder if I colud interest you in blowing it out your ass, considering nobody here has any obligation to “fill in your blanks” in the first place.

Can we all agree that genocide, in whatever form it may take, is wrong, and unacceptable, and not get bogged down about arguing which specific cases constitute genocide, and which do not?

Why can’t we all just get a song?

No, Troofie, I am not interested in your sophomoric and meaningless syllogisms about nothing. Neither I nor anyone else here has said anything which would fit into those frames. You really need to stop listening to those voices in your head.

Truth, are you really going to pretend you didn’t rape my grandmother?

not get bogged down about arguing which specific cases constitute genocide

That is hilariously stupid. Allow me to agree with you that theft is wrong while not getting bogged down in whether or not me stealing your guitar is wrong. Water under the bridge.

It’s not as stupid as it may sound. Neither side ever seems to win the other side over in terms of revealing the ostenstible blind spots of the other side. So we end up just solidifying a trend of ongoing divisiveness, when, instead, we could be building upon what we share in common, little though that may be.

It’s not as stupid as it may sound.

This should be your catchphrase.

Meanwhile, the NY Post is claiming that Ann Coulter has broken her jaw and is having it wired shut.

Obama hasn’t even been inaugurated yet and already the country is a better place.

And if you are going to speak to Muslims about Islamic-inspired violence, be ready for them to say that they condemn violence against “innocents”, and be ready for some major equivocation when you ask them to define what an innocent is.

Generally the term “innocent” or “non-combatant” is defined in the way that is most expedient to the person seeking to justify a particular act of violence (or conversely in the way that is most useful for gaining sympathy*). This is by no means unique to so-called Islamic-inspired violence. Every noncombatant killed by US occupation forces “had it coming”, according to our own apologists: they should have found and killed the sniper in their own building, they shouldn’t have celebrated by shooting into the air at a wedding, if he was innocent why did he run, etc. See also Dresden, Hamburg, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, “turkey shoots”, “Indian Country”, et multiple cetera.

* Examples might be referring to a stone-throwing, torch-wielding mob as “unarmed demonstrators” or mercenaries as “civilian contractors”, with the implication that they were peaceful people going about their business when they were suddenly and brutally attacked.

any time the subject of Islamic violence is brought up, Timothy McVeigh is the immediate tu quoque response. Are you going to pretend that isn’t so?
Though it is flattering to be offered other assertions along with an invitation to pretend to deny them, I prefer to dwell on Truth’s original assertion that TMcV is a prime conversational topic among Muslims.

It is very revealing that you won’t try.

Does the phrase “we don’t owe you jack-shit” mean anything to you?

We don’t have to win over the idiots. Just wait for them to die. Just look at the history of progressive politics. It wasn’t all that long ago that right wingers were arguing that blacks should not marry whites.

Give it a few more decades, and arguing against gay marriage will look just as shockingly backwards.

We arn’t going to draw a line in the middle between the people who want to make society fairer, and the people who want to drag us back to the stone age, and declare that line is where the perfect society exists. Fuck that shit.

This should be your catchphrase.

It’s not as stupid as it sounds by anyone,
It’s not as stupid as it sounds with anyone , …
It’s not as stupid, it happens every day,
No matter what you say

And if you are going to speak to Muslims about Islamic-inspired violence
We aren’t.

Stop infecting yourself *whap* Stop infecting yourself *whap*

Oh, and nobody tell actor212 what “tu quoque” means, OK?

It’s Latin for “I know you are but what am I?”

Troofie,

Allow me to quote your post:
“Smut, any time the subject of Islamic violence is brought up, Timothy McVeigh is the immediate tu quoque response. Are you going to pretend that isn’t so? Even you liberals do that.“

And we do not play your stupid gotcha game because it is a stupid gotcha game with no meaning or relationship to any reality. You really need to stop listening to those voices.

And “tu quoque” is an apt description of your entire style of argument.

Can we all agree that genocide, in whatever form it may take, is wrong, and unacceptable, and not get bogged down about arguing which specific cases constitute genocide, and which do not?

Why can’t we all just get a song?

Yes, let’s stop discussing the relevant topic that we’re all interested in and instead talk about the latest Dr BLT tune. You sing flat. Raise your arms a little bit and/or smile slightly, then you won’t need to process the hell out of the vocal track.

I prefer “Why can’t we all just get a song.” Music brings people together, at least potentially, but politics always divide.

Whether liberal or conservative, you are all preaching to the choir, and changing few, if any, minds—even fewer hearts. So what’s the point of preaching at all?

So what’s the point of preaching at all?

Yeah! Those deck chairs would look so much better over on the port side of the ship.

Truthy, you don’t think I’m right — or you don’t understand what I wrote. It’s not an “enlightening conversation” nor do I think/hope that some random Muslim speaker’s idea of “innocent” doesn’t mean “everyone except the Zionist occupiers, all of whom are fair game, even the children” — because that is exactly what everyone in the world does, when they’re even pretending to care about the distinction in the first place.

we could be building upon what we share in common

I’ll start building when the mainstream mouthpieces of the Right in this country make a sincere and sustained effort to undo the damage they’ve wrought with such little masterpieces as, oh, equating liberalism with treason.

Until then, y’all can blow it out your ass.

when your own hypocrisy is exposed

By some dumb-ass version of right-wing Mad Libs?

Until then, y’all can blow it out your ass.

I would prefer that they shove it up their asses. There is already entirely too much of their shit all over everything.

I suggest we all make a “sincere and sustained effort to undo” any damage we might have done, and start working together, as human beings, not liberals or conservatives, to make this a better place to live.

As long as we’re engaged in blaming, shaming, and name-calling, we are missing out on opportunites to relieve human suffering and make the world happier for more people.

you are all preaching to the choir,
I thought we were shouting and throwing rocks at the choir. That will teach them to sing the chorus when Leonard Cohen does ‘Hallelujah’.

First of all liberals, the European settlers came to the New World (no I will not put New World in quotation marks like so many leftwing revisionist historians seem to be doing nowadays, its like disco to them, liberals always need a new fad.) in search of religious freedom, they were mainly Baptists and Puritans trying to escape religious persecution, and also to win over new converts in the process.

They never intended to wipe out the Indians. The whole subject is very complicated, but however it was caused, war between settlers and Indians eventually broke out. The Settlers won the war, and therefore, without initially intending to, found themselves the undisputed masters of the American Continent.

There was never any genocide. There was however, widespread warfare which led to the deaths of thousands of Indians and Settlers. Not to mention disease, which was the most serious cause of Indian mortality, as I believe the author who happens to be the butt of this smear thread, already wrote.

Warfare doesnot equal genocide, no matter how many lives are lost. Lets face it, war is brutal. The Settlers won. Get over it! This is currently a non issue, as it has been for over one hundred years. By bringing this up continuiously, the left simply continues to prove itself as the arbiters of white guilt, which is pathetic. White people have done more for civilization than anyother race of men in history. Ancient Greece, The Roman Empire, modern science, medicine, arcitecture. But I get it, really I do. Its not the hip thing to say, on PC college campuses with their pot smoking festivals. I hate to break it to you, but dead white males are what made Western Civilization the greatest force in history.

A Muslim cleric gave bin Laden permission to kill up to ten million Americans.

Oh, hey, a guy said a guy could (in the abstract) do something, and that invalidates everything we say. Makes perfect sense.

Kthnxbai.

Racist.

As Bill O’Reilly would say, “DoctorDick is hiding under his desk.”

First of all liberals, the European settlers came to the New World (no I will not put New World in quotation marks like so many leftwing revisionist historians seem to be doing nowadays, its like disco to them, liberals always need a new fad.) in search of religious freedom, they were mainly Baptists and Puritans trying to escape religious persecution, and also to win over new converts in the process.
Oh dear sweet chocolate covered Jeebus in the commode, what a load of horse shit. The vast majority of European immigrants to the Americas came seeking wealth. Religious refugees were only a small minority, even among the English, and there were none among the French and Spanish. If you ever take the time to actually read the chronicles written by those early settlers (as I have), you will find them replete with direct references to their desire and intent to eliminate the Natives. That trend continues right up to the 20th century. Historical illiteracy is not a virtue.

So what’s the point of preaching at all?

Because it points up the Genus Wingnut’s inability to process guilt. At all.

Even third hand in discussions of history.

They have to be always right, even when their attitudes and perspectives and philosophy have been completely annihilated by the relentless rip tides of Reality.

We have to leave a mark for future Digital Anthropologists to write papers on.

There was never any genocide. There was however, widespread warfare which led to the deaths of thousands of Jews and Germans. Not to mention disease, which was the most serious cause of Jewish mortality, as I believe the author who happens to be the butt of this smear thread, already wrote.

Fixed your comment there, Scotty.

they were mainly Baptists and Puritans trying to escape religious persecution

Tell that to the Incas, Aztecs, Caribes…

Puritans trying to escape religious persecution

No, they were persecuting people themselves, and it got to the point where even the Dutch couldn’t handle it.

when Muslims talk about sparing “innocents” they don’t necessarily mean what you think

I”m sure we can rely on you to tell us what we think and what Muslims think, can’t we?

You would think that a commander of a Scottish contingent would at least be aware of Teh Darien Colony.

Fixed your comment there, Scotty.

That’s “fized”.

Troofie –

Islam, unlike some varieties of Christianity, is a decentralized religion with no overarching hierarchy with the authority to make decisions for “Islam”. There are a multitude of Islamic holy men operating independently of each other and who often disagree on key elements of scripture and dogma. Novel thought that, almost like Christianity. It is no more reasonable to say what you have than it would be to say that Christian religious leaders (Pat Robertson) have sanctioned the assassination of foreign leaders who oppose American hegemony or that Christianity gave Hitler a pass on exterminating the Jews (which the Pope actually did). God, but you are dumber than a box of rocks.

Which has totally pwned you.

How? By proving you yet again to be a race-obsessed idiot? Um, okay. You win – you’re a race-obsessed idiot.

That Darien Colony linkee includes the following. The identities of Nation [_____], Nation [——–] and debacle [……..] have been redacted for extra madlibby goodness.

the [_____] economy had been bankrupted by the ‘[……..] Fiasco’ and [———] had been petitioned by [_____] to wipe out the [_____] national debt and stabilise the currency. Personal [_____] financial interests were also involved. Many [_____] Commissioners had invested heavily in the [………] Scheme and they believed that they would receive compensation for their losses {in the event of [_____] becoming a vassal state}.

.

Smut Clyde –
The express and sole purpose of Spanish colonization, as well as in every other colony except Massachusetts Bay Colony, was to make a profit – an obscenely large profit. The Spanish crown financed Columbus’s voyages to raise cash to pay off their debts incurred in the reconquest of Spain back from the Moors (the completion of which was the most important event to occur in 1492). They succeeded beyond their wildest dreams, quintupling the supply of gold in Europe in the space of one century. Virginia, Maryland, Georgia, Carolina, New York, Pennsylvania and the rest of the British colonies were established by private stock companies intent on turning a profit. The French colonies in Canada were for the purpose of amassing wealth through the fur trading (breaking the Russian monopoly in the process), while those in Louisiana were for the production of sugar cane (at a time when sugar was almost as valuable as gold).

Call him “Scotch” for short.

It makes it easier to get where his head is at. “Asshole” is too hard to type quickly.

In the tradition of Shakespearean thespianism, I would suggest ‘The Scottish Douche’.

DrDick said,
November 26, 2008 at 0:35
—

RE: diseases. I appreciate your point. My wife is part Passamaquoddy (from her grandmother, in Cherryfield, Maine). Alcoholism is a disease that is pervasive in New England tribes — and a genetic component has long been suspected. To my knowledge there was no tradition of alcoholic beverages in Abenaki tribes in the Northeast prior to Contact.

Cheers.

Doug – My son is half Cherokee and I have spent over 20 years working with Native peoples. There were no native alcoholic beverages north of the Mexican border region (there were some among the Tohono O’odam in Arizona). Alcohol abuse among Native populations is a complex problem involving possible (though not demonstrated) genetic components, social disenfranchisement and marginalization, and psychological problems associated with racism, poverty, and marginality.

Lets face it, war is brutal. The Settlers won. Get over it! This is currently a non issue, as it has been for over one hundred years.

Hmm … let’s try this …

“Let’s face it, the Holocaust was brutal. The Nazis won. Get over it! This is currently a non issue, as it has been for over 60 years.”

Shorter Cmdr Haggis of the Wingnut Brigade: “Teh darkies didn’t believe in land/property ownership so we took what we wanted and ran them fookin wogs westward blah, blah blah…cheetos…blah, sammich…john galt….”

Hmm … let’s try this.

“Let’s face it, Apartheid is brutal. The Afrikaaners won. Get over it! This is currently a non issue, as it has been for over 30 years.

“Let’s face it, Human Slavery is brutal. Jefferson Davis won. Get over it! This is currently a non issue, as it has been for over 400 years.”

Lets face it, war is brutal. The Settlers won. Get over it! This is currently a non issue, as it has been for over one hundred years.

Unfortunately the dispossession and oppression of Native peoples in the US did not end 100 years ago, but is an ongoing problem. See Cobell v Babbit.

Take a shot at it and I’ll enlighten you.

Y’see, here’s your problem Troofie – attempting to solicit a response with the promise of further postings by your good proto-fascist self is really not going to work.

If you promised instead to fuck off without any further comment and never, ever return, I bet half the people here would fill in your idiotic blanks.

Just stopped by to see if either side was winning. Nope. It looks like both sides are still going in circles, heavily invested in getting the other side to accept the role of “bad guy,” while self-righteously declaring themselves to be the “good guy.”

Any other to-young-to-have-been-there-but-retro-enough-to-enjoy-the-70s music fans out there familiar with that song by Dave Mason that says, “…there ain’t no good guy/there ain’t no bad guy/there’s only you and me, and we just disagree…” Well, I think that’s a sentiment that we could also use to calm the rhetoric, identify that which we have in common, and begin building on that. Tear down the walls. Let’s build bridges instead. Peace. Out!

DrDick said,
November 26, 2008 at 2:03

Doug – My son is half Cherokee and I have spent over 20 years working with Native peoples. There were no native alcoholic beverages north of the Mexican border region (there were some among the Tohono O’odam in Arizona). Alcohol abuse among Native populations is a complex problem involving possible (though not demonstrated) genetic components, social disenfranchisement and marginalization, and psychological problems associated with racism, poverty, and marginality.
—

I agree, and appreciate your insights and the information you have provided here.

All of the factors you state regarding alcoholism apply similarly to Irish male immigrants and sons of immigrants to the U.S., c. 1900-1950 and American black males during the same period.

All of the factors you state regarding alcoholism apply similarly to Irish male immigrants and sons of immigrants to the U.S., c. 1900-1950 and American black males during the same period.

Or poor rural Southern whites (my own “ethnic” background).

I already filled in Truth’s blanks.

Tear down the walls. Let’s build bridges instead. Peace. Out!

“H.L. PUTTIGRASS OFF TO TAKE A BATH!”

If you promised instead to fuck off without any further comment and never, ever return, I bet half the people here would fill in your idiotic blanks.

Now that’s change I can believe in!

Namely: Can you find a Christian priest or minister doing the equivalent of the Muslim blessing for bin Laden to kill ten million Americans?

Are you illiterate or simply willfully stupid? I gave you two real world examples, asshat.

Unfortunately the dispossession and oppression of Native peoples in the US did not end 100 years ago, but is an ongoing problem. See Cobell v Babbit.
—

To make a fairly ridiculous example. The Pokanoket Wampanoag, that of Massasoit (Ousemequin), who convened the first Thanksgiving and fed the Myles Standish et al. turkey and cranberries in 1620, only received “federal recognition of tribal status” last year, 2007. Talk about retarded.

This timeline prepared by the Mashpee Wampanoag is very helpful:

http://mashpeewampanoagtribe.com/timeline.html

Folks, please don’t feed the troll. The fact that he’s claiming that people have been “pwned” by a stupid gotcha mindteaser that lots of people here (unfortunately, including me) have already answered should be evidence enough that he’s arguing in bad faith and deserves exactly no consideration or attention.

He’s not going to shut up until he gets someone to “admit” that, boy howdy, liberals actually do think that it’s fine for black people to assault or call for the extermination of white people. Nobody here thinks that. Nobody here has asserted that.

Just ignore him.

That’s “fized”.

Why?

Folks, please don’t feed the troll.

Today I got a lot of useful information to think about out of some of the responses. Not too big a loss and not quite the tedium of “why don’t you just fuck off” posts.

http://mashpeewampanoagtribe.com/timeline3.html
—

If you examine this link, you will see that the lawyer (working for asshat mall developers) who “proved” that the Mashpee Wampanoag are not real “Indians” was none other than James St. Clair, the lawyer who defended Richard Milhous Nixon in United States v. Nixon.

Why?

Get hip Methuselina.

Second link fized.

Most creatures lying on their backs on the bottom of ponds are more worthy of my sympathy than Ann Coulter. And yet, I give it. This is what makes me Not A Wingnut.

WereBear: Remember how before the election a lot of lefties were all “we should get down in the gutter and emulate the RePigs and be total asshole evil-doers, cuz that’s how you WIN, why is our side always such a bunch of pussies grrr grrr grr”? And then, remember how Obama consistently took the high road and refused to be a guttersnipe? Remember? And, and how then, Obama won, partly because maybe enough people were hungry for decency and true compassion and an end to all the beyond-appalling greed, hatred, bile and gore and selfishness? That’s also what makes you and me and just about everybody here not a wingnut.

Although I have to add that if anyone I can think of in the whole wide world had to have her jaw broken and wired back together, I would have chosen the skanky shithead bitch Coulter thing.

Can you give an example of a Christian priest or minister giving permission to kill any number of civilians?

Looks like DrDick’s got that covered, but:

You wouldn’t have a hard time finding an example of a Christian religious figure giving permission (or even orders) to “invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed,” if you looked for it.

I would add that the doctrine of American Exceptionalism so fondly spoken of by Sarah Palin is exactly that: since we are the Good Guys, anyone who opposes us or hinders our will are the Bad Guys and thus fair game. It is in part derived from John Winthrop’s sermon “A Model of Christian Charity” (as is the phrase “City on a hill”).

And also, I guess, that “Kill ’em all and let God sort ’em out” originated in the Albigensian Crusade. I guess it’s not solid historical fact that the abbot actually said “Neca eos omnes …” but that is what they did.

For more specific examples of the above, it depends on who you consider a “Christian priest or minister”. I would suggest the “Phineas Priesthood”, the guys who bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors, and the KKK (which in its lynching heyday was highly regarded by many churches and included any number of ministers in its ranks).

RB: Yes, I remember the previous occurrences regarding “fized” being an awesome substitute for “fixed.” But because I am old and no longer hip, about which I actually no longer give a flyin’ fuck, I must ask for these things to be explained to me when I don’t understand them.

Are you illiterate or simply willfully stupid?

He’s not illiterate, so that leaves only one possibility.

Twoof has crawled out from under his rock again, eh? I thought our neurotic hanger-on had gotten tired of being humiliated. Evidently not.

Although I have to add that if anyone I can think of in the whole wide world had to have her jaw broken and wired back together, I would have chosen the skanky shithead bitch Coulter thing.

It does have a Karmic wholeness to it. The wishes of a great deal of the world was for her to shut up.

an example of a Christian priest or minister giving permission to kill any number of civilians
All future contributions to the Internet Tradition known as “Shorter First Crusade” should credit Doctorb at 2.39.

Ann Coulter has broken her jaw and is having it wired shut.
As God is my witness, I thought that she could disarticulate the joints of her lower jaw so as to swallow prey several times larger than her head.

Today I got a lot of useful information to think about out of some of the responses. Not too big a loss and not quite the tedium of “why don’t you just fuck off” posts.

Agreed. This may be the least painful troll infestation I’ve ever clambered through.

Just stopped by to see if either side was winning. Nope.

Well, I guess counting the words is just as valid a measure as reading them.

I think the more immediate threat from the worshippers of Mohammed is far more relevant.

Of course, nutsacks like you were the ones telling us how the eeeevil ROOSKIES were just days away from RULING THE WORLD, when ti turned out that they couldn’t even defeat a bunch of scruffy tribesmen in a country right next door.

I somehow get the feeling you’re just as believable in this case.

Doctorb, it is instructive that your examples come from the Middle Ages,

Know what I hate more than abortion clinic bombers and the KKK? Time-traveling abortion clinic bombers and the KKK.

“What did she say to get punched that hard?”

I’d wager it was a statement involving (a) President-Elect Obama and (b) a word beginning with “N”.

(I had no idea Condi had it in her…)

WIN!

Troofie –
Name two. I gave you two names from modern history (one from the last few years), now you name two Islamic clerics of equal stature who have sanctioned terroism.

You know, the really cool thing about genocide is how the dead people leave all of this really cool stuff behind. Like, Manhattan.

Ooh! It’s time for The Queef’s Suck-Libs! Let me give it a shot!

It is OK for THE TRUTH HAS A MICROSCOPIC PENIS people to assault HE WAS PATHETICALLY WRONG ABOUT THE ELECTION people if the first group insults the second.
It is not OK for THIS DUMBSHIT DOESN’T KNOW THE FIRST FUCKING THING ABOUT ECONOMICS people to assault AND THINKS THAT OBAMA BEING A CENTRIST IS SOMEHOW PROVING HIS POINT, OR SOMETHING people if the first group insults the second.

It is OK for HE SHOULD REALLY GO BACK TO CONFEDERATE WANKOFF AND DROWN HIS TEARS IN EMPTY CHEETO BAGS people to openly call for the extermination of THIS STUPID FUCK HAS SERIOUS, SERIOUS ISSUES people, and for applause to follow this remark.
It is not OK for SERIOUS, ASSNUTS, JUST GET LOST. YOU’RE MAKING A DOOFUS OUT OF YOURSELF people to openly call for the extermination of FUCK OFF, SHITFART people, and for applause to follow this remark.

Ahh, yet another bit of historical revisionism coming from the left. The Crusades were actually, a series of just wars, launched in response to centuries of muslim aggression and expansionism.

It began when Emperor Alexius I of the Byzantine Empire, asked Pope Urban II for help, after the Turkish invasion, which nearly destroyed his Empire. It was also advocated in order to protect Christian pilgrims to the Holy Land, who were being massacred by Muslim bandits, and to reclaim the Near East for Christendom, which had since by conquered by the Muslim armies during their many wars of aggression.

You liberals really need to read up on your Western Civ, your ignorance is making you look like blithering idiots.

You know, the really cool thing about genocide is how the dead people leave all of this really cool stuff behind. Like, Manhattan.

And all the gold in California.

You liberals really need to read up on your Western Civ, your ignorance is making you look like blithering idiots.

And you should try reading something other than Stormfront as the source of your information on world history.

And all the gold in California.

Is in a bank in Beverly Hills, in someone else’s name

Remember when W was making that speech about terror and he used the word “Crusade?”

Yeah. That’s what ignorance can do.

Funny the things Teh Great Gazoogle can provide on a moment’s notice.

Another imam renounces his support for terrorists

Shaikh Nasser bin Hamad Al-Fahd has recanted and withdrawn his fatwas [religious opinions], describing them as “a grave mistake”. He was the second of the Saudi scholars detained for promoting militancy this year to take to the airwaves to renounce his support for militants and condemn terrorist attacks.
linky

Gosh Pravda, looks like you’re full of shit yet again.

Abortion clinic bombers, the KKK and the Phineas Priesthood (founded 1990) are from the Middle Ages? Wow.

Witch hunts in Africa are going on right now, led by Evangelical (largely Pentecostal) pastors. People are being killed, often in creatively horrible ways, by other people who believe or claim to believe they are doing God’s work. I want to stress that witch hunting, or, you know, persecuting people, is by no means unique to Christianity, and in fact most self-identified Christians probably find it shocking and deplorable.

In the US, Dominionists, specifically Christian Reconstructionists, advocate a (particular kind of) Christian theocratic dominion over all aspects of society, which would include the death penalty for heretics, gays, women who have sex before marriage, kids who talk back, and practically speaking anyone they don’t like. Do they have the means to make this happen? No. They also cast aside centuries of religious tradition in favor of a vision they view as a more “authentic” and “original” practice, and are largely disavowed by their mainstream co-religionists. If this sounds like I am drawing a parallel to Wahhabism, it’s because I am. The only major difference, practically speaking, is that Christian Reconstructionists haven’t been successful yet.

Now, I should point out again that I do not think that Christianity as a religion is inherently bad, or worse than other religions. I am aware of many good things done by people who were motivated to act out of a sincere and compassionate religious impulse and a desire to emulate the goodness of Christ. Conversely, consider Buddhism: we generally think of Buddhists as extremely peaceful and compassionate people. The samurai of feudal Japan were Zen Buddhists, perfectly willing to cut people in half. More recently, Imperial Japan got involved in some nasty business, apparently undeterred by the Zen Buddhist precept forbidding killing.

Basically, if you make the decision to view any atrocity committed by Christians in the name of Christianity as an aberration or something far enough in the past that it doesn’t matter anymore, while viewing any atrocity committed by Muslims in the name of Islam as more evidence that All One Billion Muslims Worldwide Are Secretly In League With The Terrorists, then of course you’re going to find a lot of data to support your thesis.

I have already answered you Troofie.

I actually asked you to name two Islamic clerics of comparable stature to the Pope and Pat Robertson. You may have a couple in there who approach the stature of Robertson, but I do not see any Grand Ayatollahs, the only people in Islam even remotely comparable to the Pope and even then with much smaller followings.

al-Fahd in particular are very influential Muslim spiritual leaders

Christ, I just posted a comment, right after your fucking comment with a link to al-Fahd’s retraction of the very fatwa you mentioned.

Would it be too much goddamn trouble to pay attention, Pravda?

did you really think Muslim clerics weren’t doing as I claimed?
No, but I doubted your ability to actually name any since you seem to be rather long on innuendo and remarkably short on any actual facts. There are certainly some Islamic clerics who have incited violence against innocents. There are equally many American Christian ministers who have incited violence against innocents as well. Specifically white pastors in the South during the Civil Rights movement and more recently those advocating or condoning attacks against abortion clinics and doctors. Your claim that Islam is uniquely barbarous is flatly ludicrous, racist, and bigoted.

There’s this link as well, Pravda:

Al-Fahd, who was the second Saudi scholar to be detained for promoting militancy this year, renounced his support for militants and condemned terrorist attacks.

“renounced his support for militants and condemned terrorist attacks” seems pretty clear to me.

“AH WELL HE DIDN’T RENOUNCE YADDA YADDA ACK GAG BLURP BLURP (rustles papers)”

No discussion of modern genocide is complete without this understanding.
Let us not forget all those pillars of American fundamentalist and evangelical Christianity openly advocating the destruction of Islam.

If al Qaeda is successful in its attempt to use WMD against the US, the murder of millions of Americans will have been accomplished with the blessings of Muslim religious leadership

“Wingnuts believe there is no such thing as ‘moderate’ Islam”, exhibit A.

I should also point out that there are also numerous Islamic clerics advocating against terrorism as antithetical to Islam, which unlike Christianity specifically prohibits harming noncombatants. They just do not get any press.

Yeah, the guy at al-Azhar also recanted, or waffled anyway. But al-Azhar functions largely as a propaganda arm for the Egyptian government, so there’s that, too.

Not surprisingly, a number of those claims are somewhat less instructive than they may at first appear. For instance, take the statement that while you should try to avoid killing non-combatants, it’s not actually so bad if it happens as an unavoidable side-effect of your legitimate attack on your enemy. This is an argument I have heard many, many times, and I do not hold the people who make it in particularly high esteem.

I don’t particularly want to try defending most of these arguments; many of them in fact I find repulsive and indefensible. But I do reject the notions that they are (a) unique to Islam and (b) endorsed, in a practical sense, by most Muslims.

http://www.penobscotriver.org/
—
The Penobscot Indian Nation of Maine is now buying back for $30 million and change the lower two dams on the Penobscot River in Maine to take back their U.S. Treaty fisheries rights on the Penobscot River. We got the dam owner, Pennsylvania Power & Light, to agree to the deal. This should be the template for all coastal Indian tribes in the United States whose sustenance rights have been stepped on by illegal dam building.

I don’t offer any guarantees, because there were no precedents when we negotiated this agreement in 2002-2003. But it shows what can be done when you threaten to sue (which is what we did). PPL blinked.

Surely you can admit that living in a nation influenced by Christianity offers far more liberty and prosperity than living in an Islamic country like Saudi Arabia?

No. Conditions in the US and Saudi Arabia are not specifically related to religion (though in both cases there are plenty of abuses justified by religion). I would in fact argue that the primary difference is that America is a secular democracy, not a Christian nation. Thomas Jefferson regarded organized religion one of the greatest abuses known to man.

Surely you can admit that living in a nation influenced by Christianity

Boy, I’d like to see you back up that bullshit assertion with something other than the usual “the Founders were Deists so they were automatically Evangelical Christians” bait-and-switch game.

Surely you can admit that living in a nation influenced by Christianity offers far more liberty and prosperity than living in an Islamic country like Saudi Arabia?

…apart from the weakness of the rest, any rhetorical question that begins “surely you can admit” is pathetic.

I have a theory about this of course

A. Elk

Troofie –

I am also pleased to see you acknowledge that terrorism is not in fact sanctioned by Islam as a whole, but rather by a select group of radical clerics, mostly located in Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Worth noting that the worlds largest Islamic country is Indonesia, where only a handful of the thousands of clerics have endorsed jihad. The second largest Islamic country is India, where some (not most) clerics have endorsed jihad against the Hindus and Sikhs, but not Westerners.

Why is it so painful to acknowledge that Islam is violent and supremacist?

As I said on the other thread, Pravda, if you could slam the door on the “showers” and pour the little blue pellets in through the vents you’d do it without a thought.

Only difference between you and al Qaeda are the targets.

Hey, Truth fill me on the last time in world history that death-loving Muslims effected the death of 90 million or so people the way those white Christians in Europe did about 60 years ago. And also did 20 years before that.
Also, I love the fact that the the right wing source historians are movie critic Michael Medved and comedian Dennis Miller. Maybe Barbara Striesand will get more respect now.

You liberals really need to read up on your Western Civ…

Thanks for the advice! I can tell that you’re just bursting at the seams with historigraphological knowledge.

It began when Emperor Alexius I of the Byzantine Empire, asked Pope Urban II for help…

So how did that ultimately work out for all them Byzantinian-type folks? I’m sure that those high-minded, just-cause-pursuing, Muslim-fighting Crusaders were always ready to help out their fellow Christians in Constantinople, right?

Why is it so painful to acknowledge that Islam is violent and supremacist?

…another pathetic rhetorical question.

Troofie – see mine 4:35, 4:41, and 4:45.

“Religious refugees were only a small minority, even among the English, and there were none among the French and Spanish.”

Ahem. Huguenots.

Sorry to interrupt the trollery; carry on.

Shell Goddamnit – The Huegenots, who were religious refugees from France, mostly settled among the English in Virginia, a specifically for profit colony. They had earlier attempted a failed independent colony in Florida, much against the wishes of the Spanish who claimed the territory. My comment referred explicitly to official colonies by the European nations.

Note to the S,N! hosts: It’s just not a good sign when a regular regularly scrolls through mass quantities of comments because they are alternating troll screeds and responses thereto.

And…. Godwin’s Law knocks out Pere Ubu. Better luck next time.

Ah. I see.

If bin Laden/Ahmadinejad/Hussein = Hitler, why that’s prefectly fair.

To admit YOU support genocide to defeat “violent and supremacist” Islam? Why, invoke Godwin and run for the hills with your tail between your legs.

You’re the one who wants death, Chucko. Why not strap on some dynamite and take out some of those “violent and supremacist” Muslims you hate and fear so much?

And Pravda – I’m still waiting for your evidence that the United States is “a nation influenced by Christianity”.

Sauce for the goose, bucko.

Trolls have no shame/self-awareness. As with a two-year old, a time-out may be the only answer. (Or a new thread)

If Pat Robertson stood up and said that Americans should slaughter ten million Muslims, and that killing their children was acceptable, you would whole heartedly and unreservedly condemn him.

Probably the main reason we’d be more concerned about Robertson than about Sheikh Hamed al-Ali is that we’re Americans and he’d be talking to us, and also because most of us would have to Google Sheikh Hamed al-Ali in order to know if he’s more comparable to Fred Phelps, Ian Paisley, or Pope Benedict.

Plus, it would be very out of character for Pat Robertson to be that up-front about being okay with mass murder. Rather than say it’s acceptable to slaughter innocents, he would solicit donations “to help refugees”, and then divert the money to a business he runs jointly with a war criminal.

Speaking of performance art, although this may be the wrong thread, but WTF:

At their best, S,N!’s stream-of-consciousness-style threads are the best form I know of these days.

bin Laden/Ahmadinejad/Hussein = Hitler
Hitler=catholic altar boy. He killed more than bin Laden, Ahmadinejad and Hussein combined. By a factor of 1000
Fit that with your Muslim=inherent violence theory.

stream of semi-consciousness, maybe

The Truth said,
November 26, 2008 at 5:17

I like pie.

I like pie.

I like pie.

stream of semi-consciousness, maybe

Speak for yourself, I have had a miserable cold for the past two days, so it is more stream of unconsciousness.

Just another day at Sadly,No!

Yes, we take the shit with the rest.

I’ve got you liberals telling me how Muslims “aren’t quite as bad as Hitler.”

God knows how you came to that conclusion, genocide-boy.

Surely you can admit that living in a nation influenced by Christianity

Boy, I’d like to see you back up that bullshit assertion with something other than the usual “the Founders were Deists so they were automatically Evangelical Christians” bait-and-switch game.

Indeed. If the US were run by the (disturbingly influential) Christian Reconstructionists, there would be on-the-spot stonings of “blasphemers”, unchaste women, gays, astrologers, drunks, and disobedient children. That’s not some kind of projection; it’s what they openly state they want — contemporary application of the laws of Old Testament Israel, as interpreted by them.

Christian Reconstructionists

our very own home-grown al Qaeda.

I suppose I would wait in vain for Pravda to denounce Dominionists as a threat to the republic, as I’m sure he’d see nothing wrong with a fundimentalist theocracy as long as it was run by Christians.

Y’know who *is* quite as bad as Hitler?

Israeli neo-Nazis.

Work that one out, Truth.

Boy, Gospodin P. is awfully quiet all of a sudden.

Ooh! It’s time for The Queef’s Suck-Libs! Let me give it a shot!

It is OK for THE TRUTH HAS A MICROSCOPIC PENIS people to assault HE WAS PATHETICALLY WRONG ABOUT THE ELECTION people if the first group insults the second.
It is not OK for THIS DUMBSHIT DOESN’T KNOW THE FIRST FUCKING THING ABOUT ECONOMICS people to assault AND THINKS THAT OBAMA BEING A CENTRIST IS SOMEHOW PROVING HIS POINT, OR SOMETHING people if the first group insults the second.

It is OK for HE SHOULD REALLY GO BACK TO CONFEDERATE WANKOFF AND DROWN HIS TEARS IN EMPTY CHEETO BAGS people to openly call for the extermination of THIS STUPID FUCK HAS SERIOUS, SERIOUS ISSUES people, and for applause to follow this remark.
It is not OK for SERIOUS, ASSNUTS, JUST GET LOST. YOU’RE MAKING A DOOFUS OUT OF YOURSELF people to openly call for the extermination of FUCK OFF, SHITFART people, and for applause to follow this remark.

Ooh! It’s time for The Queef’s Suck-Libs! Let me give it a shot!

It is OK for THE TRUTH HAS A MICROSCOPIC PENIS people to assault HE WAS PATHETICALLY WRONG ABOUT THE ELECTION people if the first group insults the second.
It is not OK for THIS DUMBSHIT DOESN’T KNOW THE FIRST FUCKING THING ABOUT ECONOMICS people to assault AND THINKS THAT OBAMA BEING A CENTRIST IS SOMEHOW PROVING HIS POINT, OR SOMETHING people if the first group insults the second.

It is OK for HE SHOULD REALLY GO BACK TO CONFEDERATE WANKOFF AND DROWN HIS TEARS IN EMPTY CHEETO BAGS people to openly call for the extermination of THIS STUPID FUCK HAS SERIOUS, SERIOUS ISSUES people, and for applause to follow this remark.
It is not OK for SERIOUS, ASSNUTS, JUST GET LOST. YOU’RE MAKING A DOOFUS OUT OF YOURSELF people to openly call for the extermination of FUCK OFF, SHITFART people, and for applause to follow this remark.

Ooh! It’s time for The Queef’s Suck-Libs! Let me give it a shot!

It is OK for THE TRUTH HAS A MICROSCOPIC PENIS people to assault HE WAS PATHETICALLY WRONG ABOUT THE ELECTION people if the first group insults the second.
It is not OK for THIS DUMBSHIT DOESN’T KNOW THE FIRST FUCKING THING ABOUT ECONOMICS people to assault AND THINKS THAT OBAMA BEING A CENTRIST IS SOMEHOW PROVING HIS POINT, OR SOMETHING people if the first group insults the second.

It is OK for HE SHOULD REALLY GO BACK TO CONFEDERATE WANKOFF AND DROWN HIS TEARS IN EMPTY CHEETO BAGS people to openly call for the extermination of THIS STUPID FUCK HAS SERIOUS, SERIOUS ISSUES people, and for applause to follow this remark.
It is not OK for SERIOUS, ASSNUTS, JUST GET LOST. YOU’RE MAKING A DOOFUS OUT OF YOURSELF people to openly call for the extermination of FUCK OFF, SHITFART people, and for applause to follow this remark.

Ooh! It’s time for The Queef’s Suck-Libs! Let me give it a shot!

It is OK for THE TRUTH HAS A MICROSCOPIC PENIS people to assault HE WAS PATHETICALLY WRONG ABOUT THE ELECTION people if the first group insults the second.
It is not OK for THIS DUMBSHIT DOESN’T KNOW THE FIRST FUCKING THING ABOUT ECONOMICS people to assault AND THINKS THAT OBAMA BEING A CENTRIST IS SOMEHOW PROVING HIS POINT, OR SOMETHING people if the first group insults the second.

It is OK for HE SHOULD REALLY GO BACK TO CONFEDERATE WANKOFF AND DROWN HIS TEARS IN EMPTY CHEETO BAGS people to openly call for the extermination of THIS STUPID FUCK HAS SERIOUS, SERIOUS ISSUES people, and for applause to follow this remark.
It is not OK for SERIOUS, ASSNUTS, JUST GET LOST. YOU’RE MAKING A DOOFUS OUT OF YOURSELF people to openly call for the extermination of FUCK OFF, SHITFART people, and for applause to follow this remark.

now FUCK OFF

Nope, Muslims aren’t quite as bad as Hitler. Or any of the Christian Clerics in the US today who have unabashedly supported the killing of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis for the purpose of bringing American democracy to Iraq, which happens to be on top of lots of Exxon an BPs oil. Once again truth, answer my question about the last time those inherently violent Muslims effected the death of hundreds of thousands (Iraq war I & II) and millions (WWI & WWII) of as those peace loving white european Christians. And this is just the past 60 years.

But you’ve really got us with that Jena thing.

I probably should not get involved in this argument, but what the hell. The sainted Billy Graham completely approved of the war in Vietnam which ended up killing between one to three million Indochinese. The following passage tells of his Christian concern for the Vietnamese.

Back in April l989, a Graham memo to Nixon was made public. It was dated April 15, 1969, and was drafted after the evangelist met in Bangkok with missionaries from Vietnam. These men of God said that if peace talks in Paris were to fail, Nixon should step up the war and bomb the dikes, which, Graham wrote, “could overnight destroy the economy of North Vietnam.”

Graham lent his imprimatur to this recommendation. Thus Graham was advocating a policy to the U.S. Commander-in-Chief that on Nixon?s own estimate would have killed a million people. The German High Commissioner Seyss-Inquart was sentenced to death at Nuremberg for breaching dikes and other crimes in Holland in World War II. (His execution did not deter the USAF from destroying the Toksan dam in North Korea, in 1953, thus deliberately wrecking the system that irrigated 75 percent of North Korea?s rice farms.)

Martin Luther, the founder of the Protestant faith who is still revered worldwide, made anti-semitic statements against the Jews. He said things like they should be physically attacked and deprived of their property.

Before the infamous Armenian genocide, there were widespread massacres of Muslim communities by Russians and Armenians. The exact toll will never be known, but it was at least in the hundreds of thousands. Please note, that I’m not in any way suggesting that this somehow makes the Armenian genocide okay.

Many Christian conservatives, such as the Southern Baptists, support torture and the war in Iraq. If they are withdrawing support, it is because of the failure of the war, not because of the human death toll of at least half a million and the millions of refugees. In fact, not a few of them think it’s great because hungry, desperate people are ripe for conversion.

Also, John Hagee basically wants nuclear bombs dropped on Iran. He is a prominent and influential Christian minister whose endorsement was sought by John McCain. McCain dropped him after some of Hagee’s statements about Jews became widely known.

BTW, I hate to insult an 85 year old woman, but Mona Charen’s new picture really reminds of Helen Thomas

You know, I kind of feel like there’s a worthwhile discussion going on, but then again it’s also kind of like:

The Truth: I defy you to find an example of a Christian religious figure advocating violence against noncombatants.

Us: (list of examples)

The Truth: Interesting that you would cite examples from history, rather than from just now.

Us: Er, like half of those are recent things.

The Truth: If something that hasn’t happened were to happen, you would be more upset by that than by some beardy guy saying to kill Americans.

Us: Okay?

The Truth: Also, Kamu Kambon hypothetically led the Jena 6 on a whitey-killing spree and none of you said anything to condemn it, and I got you to say that Muslims are not as bad as Hitler. Ohh, how delicious! You are all hanging from my big throbbing fishing pole! The Big Brain am winning again! I am the greetest!

Honus – How in God’s name do you insult Charen? Anything you can think to say about her is almost a compliment.

“My comment referred explicitly to official colonies by the European nations.”

Well shut my mouth.

Your distinction, my sweet, does not appear in your post.

Not that it matters or anything, but oozing christ on a plastic cross. Let a bystander be pedantic once in a while.

You liberals really need to read up on your Western Civ, your ignorance is making you look like blithering idiots.
Before Irony died, she bled out messily all over my first editions of Runciman’s “History of the Crusades”.

The last bastion of “safe” bigotry in the U.S. — even after homosexuals — is against Native Americans. This is most obvious in towns and cities near Native American populations. This racism and bigotry is so entrenched that it is even a joke in punditry circles, whereas recently a columnist speculated (as an insult) that Obama or McCain might be forced to appoint someone to head the Bureau of Indian Affairs. This “joke” would never have been said regarding a “Bureau of Black Affairs” or “Bureau of Womens’ Affairs.”

The whole reason there is a Bureau of Indian Affairs is because Native Americans have sovereignty over their land. Native American tribes are sovereign nations because they preceded the U.S. This is why Native peoples are called “First Nations” in Canada. First Nations is the proper nomenclature.

This is why Native peoples are called “First Nations” in Canada

..but the scare quotes are significant (even in Canada (!!!))

They should not be confused with the Frist Nations, who devote much of their effort to placing comments on new blog threads before anyone else gets there.

Honus at 6:07 was not worried about insulting Charen.

DrDick said,
November 26, 2008 at 6:22

Honus – How in God’s name do you insult Charen? Anything you can think to say about her is almost a compliment.

Dr.- I wasn’t worried about insulting Charen, I didn’t want to insult Helen Thomas.

I’ve got you liberals telling me how Muslims “aren’t quite as bad as Hitler.”

Do you kiss your mom with that mouth?

Oh wait…everyone else does!

If al Qaeda is successful in its attempt to use WMD against the US

And if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

So you’d better start wishing, Troofie. Maybe you can have a herd.

Namely: Can you find a Christian priest or minister doing the equivalent of the Muslim blessing for bin Laden to kill ten million Americans?

Fred Phelps leaps to mind.

Troll ass kicked?

Check!

OK, my Wednesday is officially underway!

Truth, you can’t pretend that President McCain isn’t going to get us out of this mess.

Y’know, HItler isn’t really all that bad now that he’s dead.

I’ve made it to the Big Time: my own parody troll on Sadly, No!

I’m so honored….I’ll remember this tribute for as long as I can…*sniff*

Nice to know I frustrate you so….actor 😉 It’s all part of the services I provide.

Mona doesn’t really look all that much like her column photo, does she? More like the lesbian who works at the drivers license bureau.*

*All drivers license bureaus in the US have at least one lesbian working there. They’re the ones who get shit done.

Who is the new hot brunnete on stargate universe? Please let me know!!!

http://www.koldcast.tv/video/2384

Very nice site!

Its like you read my mind! You seem to know so much about this, like you wrote the book in it or something. I think that you can do with some pics to drive the message home a little bit, but other than that, this is fantastic blog. A fantastic read. I will certainly be back.