Oh my
Jonah, are you sure you want to ask this?
The Bush Legacy [Jonah Goldberg]
About a month ago, I called Ramesh in a panic because I’d forgotten that I was slated to do a Close-Up Foundation interview on the Bush legacy and I hadn’t thought too much about it. Fortunately, not only did Ramesh have some great thoughts, but I was wrong about the date — by a month (I’d entered it into my PDA wrong). Anyway, I’m doing the interview this Thursday and while I have my thoughts far better organized, I thought it’d be interesting to know what NRO readers think Bush’s legacy will be. Please send thoughts — hopefully constructive — to JonahResearch@AOL.com.
(Via.)
I highly encourage you all to send Jonah your thoughts on this matter, be they constructive or otherwise.
For my part, I think pictures speak more than a trillion-kabillion words, so I’ll let them speak for me. Ladies and gentlemen, the Bush Legacy:
To sum up: Bush has been a smarmy, destructive asshole for the past eight years and he has left the next president with an extremely large pile of shit to deal with. And you, Jonah, dutifully enabled the stupid SOB for years until you realized that he was starting to cost the GOP votes. Lest we forget:
From tax cuts (and deficits, alas), to his personal conviction on aborrtion, to aligning America with the historical tide of liberty in the world, Georrge W. Bush has proved that he’s a Reaganite, not a “Bushie.” He may not be a natural heir to Reagan, but that’s the point. The party is all Reaganite now. What better sign that this is now truly and totally the Gipper’s Party than the obvious conversion of George Bush’s own son?
Why should anybody ask for your opinion on anything, dude? You have less credibility than a 9/11 Truther. Because say what you will about the Truthers, but at least they don’t abandon their crazy and insane delusions just because they suddenly become politically inconvenient.
What a pathetic fraud.
UPDATE: Here’s a more succinct version of the Bush Legacy:
Thanks to Lesley for the idea.
If a picture is worth a thousand words, you’ve given us ten thousand words worth of reasons not to listen to anyone who says Bush is doing a good job.
And sadly, people still will, despite the fact that the awful numbers and statistics boil into human suffering – and somehow, that seems not to reach the conservative mind.
Actually, 9/11 Truthers have film evidence and a narrative that holds together.
Jonah hasn’t even got that.
Re: the email address
I see Goldberg, like Sadly, No!, has his own research lab. Very impressive.
Actually, 9/11 Truthers have film evidence
No they do not.
Brad – Well played sir. Well played.
“JonahResearch@aol.com”- that slays me. Research is getting email from other people, sent to 1999—I mean to an AOL account.
Remember, Bush would be a conservative if he was more like Reagan—namely, if he offered amnesty to immigrants who broke immigration laws to be here, pulled American forces out of the mideast conflict they’re mired in, raised taxes to reduce the deficit, and negotiated directly with America’s enemies.
Right?
“… because I’d forgotten … I hadn’t thought too much about it …I was wrong about the date … I’d entered it into my PDA wrong … I thought it’d be interesting to know what NRO readers think …Please send thoughts …”
Holy cow, what a lazy useless sack o’ shit. Didn’t he try to get his “NRO readers” (all 3 of ’em) to do his Liberal Fascism research for him too? I totally detect the smarmy stench of someone who’s always conned and/or paid others to do his work for him. Fucking wanker.
Didn’t he try to get his “NRO readers” (all 3 of ‘em) to do his Liberal Fascism research for him too?
Yes. And after reading the book for myself, it shows.
what i’d like is a whole mediawiki devoted to the misdeeds of the gigantic fuckup twins: the GOP and the Bush Admin
theres so much out there that somebody ought to put it in a definitive place with a non partisan spin
Countdown until AIDSMonkey shows up:
5…4…3…
(Jonah doesn’t have time to research because he spends too much time perfecting his sock monkey schtick.)
Jonah Goldberg is a neoconservative fatshit.
Guys- I’m thinking of banning Saul. I’ve put up with his nonsense for a long time, but the HAAM nickname he’s using now is just beyond offensive. Thoughts?
Thoughts?
You would not be removing any unanticipated content.
t4toby, I believe that troll has been banned.
JoshA got to it first, but yeah. An AOL account. Some street cred there, Jonah.
Brad- A pathetic and lazy fraud. Getting the dittoheads to do his work for him? What exactly does this putz do all day but blog out ridiculous crap and half-assedly edit his pals?
I thought HAAM/Saul/Truth/whatever got banned in the last thread. If not, I’d vote that it’s way past time you booted his ass.
Brad- Saul = HAAM? Yeah, ban time. It’s a bit much.
Brad, Gavin mentioned banning the aidsmonkey troll yesterday.
Napalming is too good for him, kick the lout out.
In fairness to Goldberg, it’s really hard to argue a proposition that’s completely indefensible. That’s why he has to get other people to do it for him.
And what’s with the meme that HAAM = Pantload?
Yes, he’s the same guy. I don’t think he’s at all sincere, btw. He’s a rather clumsy and untalented performance artist whose routine has grown very tiresome.
A better Ground Zero photo because it shows all the progress made in six years of rebuilding.
Abu Ghraib was indeed horrible, but Gitmo shouldn’t be ignored.
I don’t know what photo you could use for Patriot Act abuses and TSA.
In fairness to Goldberg, it’s really hard to argue a proposition that’s completely indefensible.
My thoughts exactly. This guy’s an editor at THE conservative mouthpiece and he can’t come up with ideas for a Bush-legacy interview?
*Pic of Lewis Libby
*Pic of Bush playing (holding) a guitar during Katrina
*Pic of Mahmoud Ahmadoyoureallywanttohurtmejad being inaugurated
*Pic of al-Askari mosque that was “only kind of a little destroyed”
*Pic of eight-year calendar with all vacation days marked in red
*Pic of nothing (imaginary Nigerois yellowcake)
I think it’s a good idea to include all the Bushbot sycophantery in with the legacy, just to keep in mind how extreme it got and who was doing it. Jonah’s snippet there at the end of the post is a good start – plenty more in the Kippies over at the Poor Man.
“A man of extraordinary vision and brilliance approaching to genius…”
I don’t think he’s at all sincere, btw.
No shit! Feeling any guilt at all about kicking his lame ass would be inappropriate. There are so many other worthy causes….supporting that asshole’s right to troll isn’t one of them.
Shouldn’t we be sending our Bush Legacy thoughts to Jonah’s intern? You know, the one he hired for Liberal Fascism: From ribbed condoms to the snotty Best Buy cashier who asked for my zip code and wouldn’t tell me why…?
I don’t comment that often here, but I say ban the troll. Ban the fuck out of him!
No Gonzo? No Libby? No bridge collapse? No global warming stats? Enron?
To be fair, you did forget Poland.
I don’t know what photo you could use for Patriot Act abuses and TSA.
Not exactly applicable, but don’t forget “Free Speech Zones”.
“I hadn’t thought too much” and “I was wrong” seem to be the key phrases in any Bush legacy summary.
Conservatives actually consider The Blubber Whale Doughboy to be one of the Republican party’s “thinkers”. Incredible.
I hope those who write Dear Jonah will share those emails with the Sadly readership. It will be especially interesting to see any replies received.
And yes, as uncomfortable as I am with banning generally, that eejit adds nothing, not even the stimulus of providing a steel of stupid neocon positions for our side to hone our arguments upon. Thumbs down.
this is amazing : ) you need to send this post to NY Times or some place else with high volumes of trafic (no offence SN!). If this doesnt get you to vote democrat nothing will
I want to know what fellow Sadlynauts think the NRO’s readership think Bush’s leg-on-sea will be.
Saul got his current nick from the British National Party’s youth leader, so I kind of want to apologise on behalf of my country.
I want to know what fellow Sadlynauts think the NRO’s readership think Bush’s leg-on-sea will be.
Bringing democracy and purple fingers and ponies and painted schools to Iraq would be my guess.
As soon as he started using “homosexuals are aids monkeys” that clinched it for me. Lines need to be drawn.
Fuck him.
Leave us not forget the legacy of Supreme Court appointments too. Also, Brownie “Heckuva Job” and Deadeye Dick Cheney and his magic duck-hunting gun.
The Pantload need only plagiarize Victor David Hanson’s column of last week, “Eons From Now, Dubya Will Be Missed,” or something like that. A very glass-half-full assessment of the legacy. Winding up, naturally, with “and we haven’t had another 9/11!!!!” As if one weren’t enough.
If Saul is halfway clever he’ll soon be using another IP address. Please be vigilant SN. Thank you.
Don’t forget Osama Bin Lauden, hand holding with the Sauds, Jack Abramoff, and no slideshow would be complete without a sneering Dick Chaney.
Don’t forget “returning dignity and respect to the White House.” I’m sure they’ll all agree Bush has done a bang-up job o’that.
I want to know what fellow Sadlynauts think the NRO’s readership think Bush’s leg-on-sea will be.
Bringing trailers (albeit broken, toxic and late) to New Orleans.
He’s a rather clumsy and untalented performance artist whose routine has grown very tiresome.
Maybe we could convince him to take up a career as a mime.
That ‘Haam’ name has always pissed the hell outta me so I wouldn’t miss it if it were to somehow magically disappear. Was it actually Haam who did the spamming yesterday? I noticed the spam disappeared but not Haam’s comments.
Making Halliburton one of the richest corporations in the US of A. Hey, jobs!@#$
I think we can file this under “Takes one to know one” and thus we understand why Jonah is called upon to evaluate Bush’s legacy. I’m sure this will only strengthen his point, if you know what I mean, and sadly, I think you do.
Goldberg on Bush’s legacy, before a live Close Up audience. Friday, May 16, 2008, at 7:00 PM on CSPAN 2.
See your emails in action!
Improved conditions for car-bound wingless bird hunters who lack aim?
Don’t forget “returning dignity and respect to the White House.” I’m sure they’ll all agree Bush has done a bang-up job o’that.
Yeah, no more jeans like under the clintonista regime!
Working hard to support the troops with flowery praise and bumper sticker slogans. (Just not with body armour, reasonable-length tours of duty, guaranteed education, mental health care, and a decent hope of a good job upon return to the States.)
And yet, and yet….
With all of this “going” for the Democrats, do you still think they can win in November? Absolutely not. And what will you fine little liberal schoolchildren do then?
It is intriguing that you people blame Bush for 9/11, the runup of which occured during Clinton eight years of banging interns, and credit him not at all for the subsequent seven years of no terrorism. Somehow I think that might come up in the election, the story of Obama’s horrible life of oppression in AmeriKKKa notwithstanding.
While you contemplate that, let me point out that
1- I am not HAAM (and a mod can check my IP address to validate that – wish they would actually)
2- I thought HAAM should go once those ridiculously long cut and pastes came in, making the site unreadable. His nickname is horribly offensive but it seems to fit in with the rest of the juvenile humor here.
The truth is, fuck HAAM, and the horse he rode in on.
Also:
Kyoto Protocol withdrawal/EPA evisceration
“No Child Left Behind”
Downing Street Memo
Suppression of stem-cell research
Abolishment of the 4th Amendment (right to privacy)
Joking about weapons of mass destruction on national TV
Trying to gut Social Security
The “catapulting of propaganda”
Sale of port security to Dubai
Trillion-zillion-dollar deficit
Terry Schiavo
ANWR drilling proposals
Harriet Miers
I could go on, but I have to go vomit now.
With all of this “going” for the Democrats, do you still think they can win in November?
Yes.
This has been another edition of simple answers to simple questions.
Mission accomplished!
Destroyed America’s global reputation
Increased death and destruction
Unprecedented incompetence at home and abroad
Increased profits for himself and his VP
Unprecendented number of vacation days of any President in history
Most alike in appearance to Ted Bundy
Musn’t forget No Child Left Behind! Gotta love that edumacation legacy.
I’m starting to believe in some sort of weird conspiracy. It is really hard to believe that the Bush Misadministration could have fucked up the country this bad by accident. Just thinking about it boggles the mind.
A positive: the success of Steven Colbert and the legendary roasting of Bush by same.
Roaming through those NRO archives is fascinating. K Lo has some encouraging news about Terri Schiavo (some “pro-life” court ruling), and Jonah predicts that Bush’s speech (which one, who knows?) will be studied by schoolchildren for years to some, just like Gettysburg and the Four Freedoms.
All of these ‘legacy’ photographs and video clips should be collected and displayed in a permanent exhibit across the street from the Bush library (with one of the many photos of Bush flipping the bird facing the library). He very badly needs an official hall of shame to thwart any attempt to salvage his reputation. You know they’re going to try…
Kyoto Protocol withdrawal/EPA evisceration
Oh yeah! And “unsigning” our membership in the International Criminal Court because Americans might be prosecuted in it, um, for no reason at all.
Shouldn’t this be among the photos, Brad?
Yes. Check the polls. Check the money. Check the numbers. Check the elections so far this year.
The GOP is boned. Best you can hope for is to sneak into the White House and maybe regain Congress by 2012. Republicans are tied to Bush, a crappy war, high gas prices, and a faltering economy. Deal with it.
Sadly, No! Did you watch any of the GOP debates? Do you recall anyone- ANYONE- bringing up Bush?
If McCain wants to say that Bush did a great job on terror and that he’ll continue Bush’s policies, he can be my guest.
Bush is more a campaign issue for Americans than Reverend Wright, Obama’s wife, cheesesteaks, or whatever else you wingnuts throw out.
Photo for Jonah’s legacy essay.
There’s been no terrorism in seven years? Wow, so what were they whining about in Bali and Madrid and London and, oh yeah, Iraq?
Well, despite the fact that both Jillian and I are slagging HAAM’s mom, I say Ban the Fucker Already.
What about a picture of the Brooks Brothers Riot (Bush v. Gore remix)?
Bush’s legacy? That’s an easy one:
another photograph for Jonah’s legacy report.
http://leblog.exuberance.com/images/bushguitar3.jpg
Strumming away while New Orleans drowned.
I just started saying that I suspected HAAM was Jonah, and it seemed to me that he would tend to disappear every time I mentioned it, so I went with it.
Shorter t4toby comment:
I just pulled it out of my ass to amuse myself about a very unfunny troll.
Yeah. Laughing at aids is ugly enough for me.
Seems to me y’all agonize over it too much.
Just think in terms of the discussion around Jillian’s post from yesterday.
If it’s done as satire, as humor, as actual commentary, then it should stay as part of the conversation, Sadly Style.
If it’s just mean spirited hate speech, intended not to inform, enlighten or amuse, but merely to hurt and draw outraged attention, it should not be allowed.
And the good news? It’s really easy to tell the difference.
See, if you’re not sure? It should stay. If you are very clear that there is simply no socially redeeming justification for the words and terms in a given outrageous post, it’s just hate speech. And taking action is appropriate.
Let the nasty little fuckers buy their own domain and see if they can draw readership. Why give them a platform their hatred and their desire to hurt?
mikey
John Howard and Tony Blair and their excellen re-election campaigns.
Oh yeah! And don’t forget Aznar in Spain! Bush has toppled more regimes unintentionally than the ones he’s toppled intentionally.
Fuck HAAM. Fuck Saul. Fuck ’em.
If it’s just mean spirited hate speech, intended not to inform, enlighten or amuse, but merely to hurt and draw outraged attention, it should not be allowed.
And the good news? It’s really easy to tell the difference.
I’m not sure I agree, but my case against saul is that it’s really a technical issue: saul brings no information – or funny – ever so it’s noise in your signal. What he says is what the posts up top mock, so why does it need to be restated?
Don’t forget about meeeeee!
As I said late last night, 86 the P.o.S. It was tiring long ago; lately it’s become offensive. I’m very reluctant to advocate banishment but there’s no humor in anything haam/saul/smegma writes. It’s hate speech which, as all of us constitution lovers know, is not protected at all much less in a “private” forum.
I dopn’t have much to add to the photo essay except to suggest there be some pictures from Walter Reed or whatever would show the abuse of the troops the GOP have been (ab)using as political pawns.
demonization of:
Valerie Plame
Cindy Sheehan
Helen Thomas
enabling of:
Tom DeLay
John Bolton
John Ashcroft
every fucking GOP asshole you can think of
And
Running over Scottish policemen with his bicycle
color-coded “terrorism alerts”
stove-piping intelligence reports
Christian Coalition-mongering
flag-burning-mongering
regular six-week vacations
shakedown of librarians for patron info
more than 4,000 dead troops
who knows how many dead Iraqis
continuing presence of obnoxious ex-First Abomination Babs
“The Pet Goat”
“Clear Skies Initiative”
Don’t forget about meeeeee!
Nader was in Simple Minds? wow.
Nailed it, Inspector Brad.
what i’d like is a whole mediawiki devoted to the misdeeds of the gigantic fuckup twins: the GOP and the Bush Admin
theres so much out there that somebody ought to put it in a definitive place with a non partisan spin
I agree. I was going to suggest dkosopedia , but that unfortunately will automatically have a partisan spin…regardless of how factual and referenced and back-referenced the information is.
How could such a wiki be set up?
Hmm….i mean, how’s wikipedia itself on this? it seems they have most of the facts, while they are perhaps a tad too soft in pointing figures directly…
What’s up, guys?
Wow. Feels good to vent rage over The One Who Deserves It for a change.
Blackwater. Enron. Turning the DoJ into a political operation.
Anybody have a shot of the nuns being refused entrance to the voting booth? Diebold. Lurita Doan. Alphonse Jackson. Abramoff. Mark Foley.
Heh. PeeJ’s comment makes me think we could make the litany of Bush scandals, or at least a subset of them, into a remake of that Billy Joel song.
Jonah – the lazy slob – has to employ the knuckle-draggers who worship him to do his fucking research for him. How much actual “research” will actually make its way in to dude’s “thesis” that he can’t even be bothered to remember to write? Or research? Or actually think about?
Just sent him this:
“It would be difficult to identify a President who, facing major international and domestic crises, has failed in both as clearly as President Bush,” concluded one respondent. “His domestic policies,” another noted, “have had the cumulative effect of shoring up a semi-permanent aristocracy of capital that dwarfs the aristocracy of land against which the founding fathers rebelled; of encouraging a mindless retreat from science and rationalism; and of crippling the nation’s economic base.”
“No individual president can compare to the second Bush,” wrote one. “Glib, contemptuous, ignorant, incurious, a dupe of anyone who humors his deluded belief in his heroic self, he has bankrupted the country with his disastrous war and his tax breaks for the rich, trampled on the Bill of Rights, appointed foxes in every henhouse, compounded the terrorist threat, turned a blind eye to torture and corruption and a looming ecological disaster, and squandered the rest of the world’s goodwill. In short, no other president’s faults have had so deleterious an effect on not only the country but the world at large.”
“With his unprovoked and disastrous war of aggression in Iraq and his monstrous deficits, Bush has set this country on a course that will take decades to correct,” said another historian. “When future historians look back to identify the moment at which the United States began to lose its position of world leadership, they will point—rightly—to the Bush presidency. Thanks to his policies, it is now easy to see America losing out to its competitors in any number of areas: China is rapidly becoming the manufacturing powerhouse of the next century, India the high tech and services leader, and Europe the region with the best quality of life.”
http://harpers.org/archive/2008/04/hbc-90002804
You have less credibility than a 9/11 Truther. Because say what you will about the Truthers, but at least they don’t abandon their crazy and insane delusions just because they suddenly become politically inconvenient.
I don’t think I’ll ever really grasp where this intense hostility towards “9/11 Truth” comes from on “liberal” sites. I mean, it’s not as though everyone who questions the story we were given about it believes that the jets were holograms or that a cruise missile hit the Pentagon…….so why lump everyone who has doubts in with those who might feel better hooked to an anti-psychotic IV?
It is intriguing that you people blame Bush for 9/11, the runup of which occured during Clinton eight years of banging interns, and credit him not at all for the subsequent seven years of no terrorism.
I’m glad you find it intriguing. If you really want to know, here’s why.
Clinton:
– Clinton had a non-partisan anti-terrorism expert, who previously served under Bush and Reagan, elevated to what was essentially a cabinet-level post. This was Richard Clarke.
– The Clinton administration paid attention to terrorism, and foiled multiple plots which would have been catastrophic and deadly.
– Clinton handed to the Bush administration specific and detailed plans for anti-terrorism.
Bush:
– Bush and his administration ignored those plans, and *PUT NOTHING* in their place. So, you see, there were no plans because Bush chose not to pay attention.
– Bush had Richard Clarke, his administration’s *ONLY* anti-terrorism expert, cut off from cabinet meetings.
– Bush put no one in Richard Clarke’s place.
– Richard Clarke screamed for meetings. Intelligence was all over the place. Bush took a month-long vacation in August, during which he received the PDB “Bin Laden determined to attack US”. Bush cleared brush.
So to recap:
– Clinton: did stuff.
– Bush: did nothing.
Now, if Bush *had* done ANYTHING about anti-terrorism before 9/11, and 9/11 still happened, then you might have an argument.
But that’s not the way it is. You may want to believe differently, and I understand that, but the facts defeat you.
Please prove me wrong, and show me one thing of any substance the Bush administration did to thwart terrorism before 9/11.
Saul, etc. is escalating his nuisance factor daily. It is only getting worse. Best to boot him now before he goes *way* beyond the line.
aligning America with the historical tide
In retrospect, with Hurricane Katrina in mind, this was not the ideal choice of words.
Running over Scottish policemen with his bicycle
Is it about a bicycle?
Oh, let’s not forget his total violation of and undermining the Nuclear Non-Proliferation treaty, to sell India nukes in exchange for a trade deal on – wait for it –
mangoes.
Trollban HAAM?
I’m passionately ambivalent – as I said elsewhere, there are certain people out there (who NEVER leave comments) to whom he’s neither offensive nor a threat – he’s a refreshing snack. If you let him return, he needs to do a LOT of praying that one of them never catches wind of him. He’s been nasty enough, & given many folks here a hard enough time for one of us – & that’s the rub, you just never know who it’ll be – to hunt down his ID (child’s-play if you’ve either the skill or the $$$) & feed his sad ass to said people. They will NOT show mercy & they have many ways to torture their prey, all by remote-control – they actively enjoy ruining lives.
(Good Rule Of Thumb: don’t go too far out of your way to gratuitously piss people off online. Toxic snark has a hell of a long shelf-life now that everyone can do Screengrabs, even if you CAN delete it an hour later. Which, in this case, he can’t.)
“Legacy”???
You know this isn’t American TeeVee – because those coffins are strictly VERBOTEN on the Magic-Box. Maybe they’d be okay to air, if only it weren’t for all those inconvenient flags on them. Or if only it weren’t for the obscenely futile way they got their contents.
What Truthers have that Jonah doesn’t? The odd question or two actually worth an intelligent & accurate answer, comes to mind. Oh, & please remember, a few of those “nutjobs” happen to be NYPD & NYFD who were IN the buildings & thus, unlike the rest of us, know the event whereof they speak firsthand – & who might actually deserve said answers as well as annual orgies of rhetorical lip-service.
What, no “My Pet Goat” shot or “Game-Show Cameo” shot or “binoculars with the covers still on” shot either?
You could’ve put one of him cleaning his specs on the Letterman Show lady’s shirt in there too – another proud moment in Presidential history.
It’s not a legacy – it’s an impact-crater.
Someone should put this up on Daily Kos.
I posted in the “Happy Obama Day!” thread about how his name offends me (for personal reasons) but I’ll stand up for him here. I asked him, just from a sense of decency, to change his ‘moniker’. If he’s willing to behave and not be a complete ass on here, (and I had no idea that he was ‘Saul’) I’m willing to ‘put up’ with him. (though I do think he should ‘get put’) That said, I haven’t been a SadlyNaught™ devotee for very long so I don’t what internets holocausts he’s committed in the past so, hey Brad, I’ll defer to you
dear Whatever dude,
Couldn’t agree more. A giant building falls down without getting hit by a plane, gov’t report doesn’t mention it, and we are supposed to feel nuts for saying WTF.
I wrote to Jonah but (using some of the info from earlier comments here) I put it in terms that perhaps Jonah could appreciate:
Bush is a disgrace because he failed to live up
to the legacy of Reagan…
Reagan raised taxes to cover the deficit
Reagan gave amnesty to immigrants
Reagan pulled our troops out of the Mideast to keep us from getting
mired in a war
Reagan negotiated with our enemies
Bush is not 1/10th of the man Ronald Reagan was. Bush is a national
disgrace and he and his supporters are destroying this one great
country. I only hope and pray that our next president prosecutes that
ass for the crimes he has committed against our country and against
humanity.
I’m with whateverdude.
Just because the outliers of the 9/11 Truth movement are lunatics does not mean that there aren’t serious questions about how 9/11 went down.
I really only say this because my first instinct as I watched the towers fall on live TV was that Dick Cheney had something to do with it. And they say to always trust your instincts…
subsequent seven years of no terrorism
Anthrax much?
Need some help here–
I have a friend who must be contrary about everything, so he gives the Bush WH credit for banning Jerry Adams of the IRA, showing some consistency in the War on Terror (said friend has a peeve about any organization that blows up innocent people).
First of all — is it true?
Second — what do you think? One tiny cherry in the mountain of turds?
Attention:
http://www.debunking911.com/
[…] — its girlfriend is totally Jezebel, but it’s cheating with both Erica and Joy — remarks, brilliantly: Why should anybody ask for your opinion on anything, dude? You have less credibility […]
Truth-Borg @ 22:13 –
“It is intriguing that you people blame Bush for 9/11, the runup of which occured during Clinton eight years of banging interns, and credit him not at all for the subsequent seven years of no terrorism.”
You mean “no terrorism in MY country” – & you’re still full of it.
Google “Anthrax Attacks” & weep, you ignorant hump.
Then check out whose labs MADE that anthrax, & whose party was its EXCLUSIVE target.
Then NEVER spout that LIE again.
Don’t worry – I’m sure the other legions of lies won’t miss it.
You’re as good at history as you are at predicting elections.
Anthrax much?
Errr…….that was “Democrats only” anthrax, so I guess it doesn’t count.
Attention:
http://www.debunking911.com/
I take it you haven’t actually read the contents of that site bro? (yikes!).
Brilliant. A very serious argument that has never been made with such care or in such detail.
Well, one legacy of the Bush administration will be the exposure of Jonah and his ilk for the frauds and hacks that they are. Sure, we’ve known that for some time, but the sheer ineptitude of W and co. has forced Doughbab and pals to new lows of intellectual dishonesty in defense of W. If it weren’t for Bush, we would never have seen how low Jonah can go.
I suppose you could send Saul & Co. into moderation and only post comments that are not egregiously insulting, racist, sexist, homophobic and so on. I doubt many would make it through.
Too much trouble. I say we make him our butt monkey, and he can stay or go as he pleases.
None would make it through.
The “Close-Up Foundation”?
Why would a toothpaste company need to ask Jonah Goldberg about the Bush Legacy?
And as far as the Conservatives actually considering Jonah G a “thinker”…
That’s the funny part. In the world of Conservatives, he IS a thinker. Now that Wm F Buckley is dead, it comes down to the inbred Hagans, Kitty Jean Lopez, Victor Davis Hitler and Jonah.
Can you imagine what the vibe must be like at a conservative think tank these days? Think Jim Jones and the last hours of Jonestown.
I’m sorry, but how exactly can one not be a “Bushie” when one is the Bush to which the word “Bushie” refers?
Pantload had really pissed me off with this one!! I now feel obliged, nee, pathologically compelled to spend the rest of my working (from home) day to draft an appropriate response! Just an idea though; how’s about we also send him ideas on how to title a followup to his Vegans=Brownshirts tome? Potatoes immediately came to mind, so here’s a few to start:
1) Liberal Hashism How combining ‘day old’ potatoes with my main staple, mayonnaise, could be a toxic mix!
2) Liberal Latkes Could shredding the Constitution be far behind!?
I take it you haven’t actually read the contents of that site bro? (yikes!).
Without getting too far into the “truther” stuff, yes I have. If you have something you think has merit, take it up with that guy because he can speak for me. I have yet to see a truther argument that was not laid waste by either fact, Occam’s razor, or simple lack of evidence.
A giant building falls down
without gettingafter sustaining blows from air blasts, debris falls, thermal stresses and foundation stresses because the huge buildings next to it were hit byaplanes, burnt and fell down hard.There. Fixed.
I thought it’d be interesting to know what NRO readers think Bush’s legacy will be.
Responsible for the rise of the lazy fucker who asks his readers to do research for him?
Rather than sending these suggestions to Jonah, shouldn’t you be sending them to whoever is going to interview him? I imagine that the Close Up Foundation is an even-handed, non-partisan organisation, where they will be taken seriously.
a few of the many Major Sponsors in 2004
1. AT&T
2. Bristol-Myers Squibb
3. Caterpillar
4. ExxonMobil
5. General Mills
6. Time Warner
7. UPS
8. Wal-Mart
— OK, I’ll think about that some more.
Wow. Feels good to vent rage over The One Who Deserves It for a change.
Amen, MzNickey! Let’s all pile on the ‘truthers’, now!
I kid. I kid. You can rage against that turd in the White House as much as you want. And against Dubay to boot.
Oh, and ban the troll already. Once you have one who feels established, you get two who’ll take the place over.
If you have something you think has merit, take it up with that guy because he can speak for me
“He can speak for me”? Geez pal, don’t put yourself in that position. I’ve sent many a doubter to that very site, just to show them how pathetic the “rebuttals” to questions brought up by “Truthers” are. Seriously, if you want to present an anti-Truther arguement, you should look elsewhere.
Seriously, if you want to present an anti-Truther arguement, you should look elsewhere.
Really, I shouldn’t think any more about the subject. It goes in the Area 51 pile.
Shorter Jonah: I’m incompetent. Please help me. Pleeeeeeeeze?
“Bring ’em on” and “Mission Accomplished” if I had to limit myself to ideas/photos not shown above in the blog post.
Really, if one sat down to write a list of Bush’s ‘legacy’, it would take quite a while to make a comprehensive list.
Brilliant.
Seems the Truth issue is a third rail, much like the Nader issue.
And as usual, I am being told I am stupid and laughable for not blindly accepting whatever passes for conventional wisdom.
Can we agree to disagree and be over it? I like you guys too much to bicker.
Don’t forget
http://peacecorpsonline.org/messages/imagefolder/abughraib.jpg
and
http://tinyurl.com/3v8v6p
He forgot about the interview. He misremembered the date. He begs his readers for talking points.
What does he do all day? Isn’t this his job? Could he actually believe he’s so beautiful and charming that others will step up to carry his (pant)load?
There. Fixed.
(He/she dusts his/her hands off in undeservedly smug fashion).
You know, it’s a pity that the government agencies investigating the curious collapse of Building 7 (and trying desperately to find a rationale for that event) didn’t use your explanation. Then again, they’re professionals with considerably more knowledge than you have. The NIST had to admit “We are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse” and FEMA acknowledged that their theory only had “a low probability of occurring”.
I willing to listen to *any* reasonable rebuttals but…….at least try doing a little objective investigating beforehand, ok?
A copy of the August 6, 2001–“bin Laden determined to strike in U.S.”
The 28 redacted pages from the congressional 9/11 report the implicates the Saudi security force as having provide assistance to some of the hijackers.
Also a transcript of Bush/Cheney’s “classified” 9/11 commission testimony. Oh, wait, there was no transcript of that.
My forever impression of the Bush legacy is that he could not testify before the 9/11 commission by himself. he had to go with Cheney.
A copy of the August 6, 2001–“bin Laden determined to strike in U.S.”
The 28 redacted pages from the congressional 9/11 report that implicates the Saudi security force as having provide assistance to some of the hijackers.
Also a transcript of Bush/Cheney’s “classified” 9/11 commission testimony. Oh, wait, there was no transcript of that.
My forever impression of the Bush legacy is that he could not testify before the 9/11 commission by himself. he had to go with Cheney.
Really, I shouldn’t think any more about the subject. It goes in the Area 51 pile.
That explains probably a bit more than you actually wanted explained.
Oh boy! Oh boy! Now we have a topic that’s gonna be really productive – the truth about 9!!
Heh. Very simply put, 90-some percent of the conspiracy theorist crap (I use the term quite deliberately) is thoroughly de-bunkable. There are however a couple of little things that are just ….wrong. I don’t believe we’ve gotten the whole truth and nothing but the truth from the official stroy. That doesn’t mean the whole story is made up.
Just consider this: what is the likelihood that the totally incompetent fuckwads that comprise this administration, AND the hundreds if not thousands of other players that would have to be involved (from bit parts to major roles) could pull it off without ONE total screw-up, smoke-belching gun left lieing around, without ONE person who can’t keep the secret, ….
Gimme a fuckin break already. The only mystery is how the administration managed to fuck things up even beyond what was previously thought the maximal theoretical FUBARedness.
Wanna see a perfect storm of stupid? Mark Noonan is reading–and vigorously agreeing with–Liberal Fascism, meaning he now peppers his blog posts with references to “the fascist left.”
Oh, and while I was OK with the Saul character, the HAAM character should be banned. That’s just too much.
Bloated republican spouses at the 2004 convention with the band aids on their faces mocking John Kerry’s service.
please send thoughts, hopefully constructive
Google “legacy of George Bush.” Unfortunately for Jonah, who equates “constructive” with pink pony cheerfulness, the results are 99.9% negative.
As Kos says, extraordinary theories require extraordinary evidence, and I agree. Apparently, NIST and FEMA do too since they didn’t just make shit up as the truthers did.
Instead, they rightly concluded they didn’t have enough evidence to say exactly what happened.
So, what T4toby said except for the last sentence. I’ve seen far too many meetings be disrupted by people who ‘know’ what happened on 9/11 and think we’re all fools to be concentrating on things happening right now such as, you know, innocent people being killed and maimed and stuff.
Don’t like ‘truthers’ at all.
I make a damn fine clam chowder. Lunch is rarely so good.
No, clam chowder does NOT have any tomato or tomato-like substance in it. Unless it’s cooked up at Area 51.
Brad, as for banning haam, I’d say yes. As you note, the name itself is offensive and his writings are tedious at best.
Besides, I just bought a pound at the supermarket yesterday, so have more than enough.
“How do we know Bush wasn’t behind September 11th? Because it worked , and it involved planning .” (Bill Maher)
This nicely encapsulates my take as well.
Oh, and about banning HAAM, I agree you should go for it, although it has nothing to do with ‘hate speech’ really. It’s just because he/she/it adds absolutely nothing of any value whatsoever, and genuinely hurts the feelings of many of the people here.
I wonder if Jonah can use this:
Just consider this: what is the likelihood that the totally incompetent fuckwads that comprise this administration, AND the hundreds if not thousands of other players that would have to be involved (from bit parts to major roles) could pull it off without ONE total screw-up, smoke-belching gun left lieing around, without ONE person who can’t keep the secret, ….
(sigh) Hundreds? Thousands? When your boss, the Secretary of Defense, tells you to move squadrons of interceptor jets off of the east coast to participate in “exercises that he’s contrived for a certain day, you do it. When your boss, the head of NORAD, tells you that what seems to be a “terrorist event” is actually just a realistic sounding exercise, headed up by Vice President Cheney himself (in which planes fly into skyscrapers), you do what he says and *stand down*. That’s two participants in this conspiracy and about 95% of the attack accounted for. It doesn’t take many people when the ones involved are in the top positions.
As for “smoking guns” left behind, geez, there are countless numbers of ’em, not that you’d be aware of…….given your aversion to the entire subject.
What, no “My Pet Goat” shot or “Game-Show Cameo” shot or “binoculars with the covers still on” shot either?
One of those (the binocular one) would be the sort of pointless (and possibly Photoshopped) item that Pantsload and his troop of dingleberries would use to claim the entire set of photos was invalid.
I see your point, Doodle, I just have trouble accepting anything the government has said in about…well, ever.
My biggest snag about 9/11 is that whether they actually planned it, or were merely complicit, or just plain ignorant to the point of being dysfunctional, every goal they had, every campaign promise, every one of the Big Dick’s wet dreams were fully enabled by that tragic event.
It just all seems very…convenient.
Look, you guys. I think Righteous Bubba’s point (and certainly mine) is that we take pride in being the “reality based community”. That means we believe evidence, and we insist that if you want us to believe a particular theory, you have to show us credible evidence. That’s why we accept global warming and evolution and tend to doubt magic sky fairy tales.
So, with all the evidence that Arab Terrorists recruited and operationally funded by al-Quaeda hijacked airliners, took over control of those airliners and crashed them into the trade center towers, causing them to collapse and causing TREMENDOUS damage to the surrounding area, this is the narative that we tend to accept.
Now, if you had some credible science that could pass the test and could respond to the scientific community’s debunking with something more than “THEY’RE IN ON IT TOO!!” you would find welcome ears. But the fact that you cannot produce anything like credible evidence or documentary support that will start to convince the leading experts of your position, and so then you you start pointing the finger of some broad conspiracy at everyone who you fail to convince, leads us to tend to categorize you as a bunch of tinfoil hat wackos.
Most of us are not structural engineers or metallurgists. Interestingly, most of you are not either. We accept that we have to accept the conclusion of the leading industry experts. You don’t want to, so you tend to say they are corrupt (see global warming denying, evolution denying, etc.) and supporting the conspiracy. Or that they know they’re wrong but don’t want to lose their career.
If you want to be taken seriously, you have to find a way to convince the experts you are right. If you cannot do that, you are probably NOT right.
And for t4toby and the more rational people who are suspcious.
Yes. Our government lies to us regularly. But this would be a HUGE conspiracy, bigger than anything since the civil war. It could not have been kept secret. Bush didn’t do it. The CIA didn’t do it. The israelis didn’t do it. al-Quaeda did it. For well known and obvious reasons.
Now, do we know the whole story? Of course not. We never will. Our government would lie to us even when telling the truth would serve them better. But it’s in the details, and to hide the incompetence, not in the responsible parties…
mikey
A President Obama may be a Bush Legacy. I’ve always hoped a person of color would be president in my lifetime; but without the evil and incompetence BushCo I don’t think Obama would have attempted it so soon, let alone been successful.
Look, you guys. I think Righteous Bubba’s point (and certainly mine) is that we take pride in being the “reality based community”.
Yes, that’s my point. If someone birngs me credible evidence that the moon-men did it I’ll believe it. Until then all I’ve seen is a bong and stack of Marvel What If? comics.
Instead, they rightly concluded they didn’t have enough evidence to say exactly what happened.
Which makes your breezy brush-off of what happened a rather large pile of horse-shit, now doesn’t it?
Don’t like ‘truthers’ at all.
And the feeling is entirely mutual. The difference is that I don’t go out of my way to bring up that issue out of the blue, the way that “anti-Truthers” feel compelled to.
Well, whateverdude, maybe you are right. I don’t have anything against people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job personally… as long as I am free to agree or not agree with them in accordance to what makes sense to me.
I’ve heard 9/11 theories that pointed out strange anomalies, or even suspicious things. But I’ve never heard one that I thought was convincing. People say, “Don’t you know that airplane fuel could never burn hot enough to bend support struts of a skyscraper?” But that just makes my mind jump to a fire that happened in Chicago a couple of decades ago, where a fire burning only normal interior materials of a building did indeed cause huge metal support struts to bend and even melt.
People say, don’t you know that Mossad agents were near the buildings on 9/11? But how do I know that’s for real, not just some anti-Israel thing, and even if they were, what does that prove exactly?
When I think of Bush’s legacy, a mental picture immediately comes to mind that sums it all up for me: That of a big, steaming pile of dogshit.
Truly, the man has the “reverse Midas touch.” Everything he touches or has touched turns to shit.
The other part of his legacy is the psychic pain I’ve felt and suffered over the past seven years as I’ve seen him destroy so many ideals and beliefs (maybe they were illusions all along) I had about the society and country I live in, and the larger world in general.
Truly, this man is an wicked, wicked scoundrel, and I do not think it hyperbole that in the gallery of the world history’s worst and most destructive political leaders, he should be ranked with the likes of the Ahab, Caligula, Nero, Stalin, and Hitler.
Fozzetti you sound like my ‘Ho. Which is fine because I love him even though he’s incurably optimistic. You’ve now got me thinking about the rest of the Bush legacy.
Destruction of the Republican party.
Galvanizing a progressive movement.
Changing the way the American public evaluates the political system.
If only those silver linings didn’t have to be encased in such dark clouds.
What you see in this photo isn’t a lazy incompetent doofus, but a man enjoying the fruits of his diabolical plan to bring down the towers. The hardest part? Convincing those Arabs they wouldn’t die flying planes into the buildings.
Jonah will probably say something like Bush restored the government’s checks and balances, by giving back to the presidency the power it lost after Nixon.
And then he’ll whine how President Obama exceeds his authority by waking up in the morning.
birngs me
They can also bring me things. That birng contraption hurts like a motherfucker.
His Legacy by Jonah Goldberg:
George Bush gave me a career. The End.
The difference is that I don’t go out of my way to bring up that issue out of the blue, the way that “anti-Truthers” feel compelled to.
We just happened to be in your way today? Lucky us!
My experiences have not been as yours, apparently, As I mentioned, a typical scenario goes something like this:
“What can we do to get the word out about the bombing and strafing of residential neighborhoods in Sadr City in this latest round of assaults. Thousands of women and children are homeless and hundreds have been killed and wounded just in the past two weeks.”
“Never mind that, what about 9/11?!?!?!? There is evidence that the criminal Bush administration is responsible for the death of thousands of people on 9/11!!”
Usually one person will wearily break away from the group to talk to the ‘truther’ one-on-one just so the meeting can progress.
It would actualy be kind of refreshing if any of the activists I know would stand up in a meeting and, apropos of nothing, start ranting about the ‘new evidence’ which proved that ‘truthers’ were delusional. But, you know, they all feel like there is more important issues to be discussed, those smug bastards!
Oh, and WordPress ate my homework again!
What is the Close Up Foundation, anyway? Its website says:
Close Up has been the nation’s leading civic education provider since 1971. In that time, we’ve made it our mission to educate, inspire, and empower individuals to become active citizens in our democracy. Each year, through our Washington, D.C.-based experiential learning programs and our multi-media publications, we help more than 1 million students and teachers in 15,000 schools nationwide develop the skills needed to begin a lifetime of active citizenship.
What sets us apart is our non-partisan approach to providing relevant content to students and teachers, and our unique teaching methodology specifically designed to appeal to mainstream students of all learning abilities.
Non-partisan? Then why the fuck are they inviting uber-partisan hack Jonah to speak?
Goldberg is Bush’s legacy.
Aborrtion = A pregnancy termination performed by a Scottish doctor.
Let Bush’s legacy be sound of a thousand Brown Squirts wailing.
every goal they had, every campaign promise, every one of the Big Dick’s wet dreams were fully enabled by that tragic event.
Not every one. We still have Social Security. We still have ANWR. We still have the estate tax (well, after 2010+). We still have Medicare, Medicaid, WIC, welfare, the FDA… I could go on, but I’m tired.
Just had my stitches out today. Well, that and all the gardening this weekend. Do you know that compost weighs a ton?!?!!??!
Google “legacy of George Bush.” Unfortunately for Jonah, who equates “constructive” with pink pony cheerfulness, the results are 99.9% negative.
the interwebz are liberally biased.
The fact is, I’ll bet you liberals are sending obscene emails to Goldberg right now. I hope that in your sloppiness brought about by hate, that there are police on their way to arrest you right now for the outpouring of hate. And, it is only fair that Goldberg is allowed to speak for Bush on this forum, after all, the so-called non-partisan panel will be stacked with liberals, 90% of journalists are democrats.
Look, you guys. I think Righteous Bubba’s point (and certainly mine) is that we take pride in being the “reality based community”.
Holy. Fucking. Shit.
Look, it would be *easy* to overload this thread with links to scientific proofs backing up “Truther” assertions, but what would the point be? Righteous Bubba’s rebuttal was a site that is more comical than anything else and his willingness to defend it end up as “take it up with him”. This pretty much defines your version of the “reality based community”, and it’s bullshit. You can’t actually argue about this stuff because you’ve NEVER bothered to actually look into it.
Now, that’s fine. If you want to avoid looking at this very dark shit, I can’t really blame you. But my point was/is that it’s bizarre to see this intense hostility to those of us who’ve bothered to spend some time pondering the issue, and have that hostility come from out of the blue on “liberal” sites. In a way, it’s akin to the Hillary/Obama warfare that’s ripping the Liberal base to shreds, and it’s way fucking counterproductive.
It was NEVER my intention to get into this subject (and disturb the peace of those of you who buy what the Bush administration told you about it) but I get pretty fucking riled when people tell me that I’m virtually a psychotic for not thinking that 19 guys, led by Tim Osman (a CIA asset who’s brother was W’s first investor and whose family co-owned the Carlyle Group with Bush Sr.), managed to defeat the multi-Trillion dollar defenses of this country, without any help.
Our government would lie to us even when telling the truth would serve them better
Agreed. So why the hostility? So you don’t believe, fine. Leave it at that and we’ve got no problems….but call me insane over the fact that I’ve actually bothered to look deep into this shit and you start causing friction that has no good purpose in our current situation.
George Bush gave me a career. The End.
That would be typical of the Pantload, not acknowledging that Clinton really gave him his career. I mean, if Jonah’s ma hadn’t made her bones attacking Clinton, Doughbob would be flipping burgers.
You can’t actually argue about this stuff because you’ve NEVER bothered to actually look into it.
I actually have. Enjoy your fulminating.
Don’t forget what Daniel Pipes said was The Worst Thing He Ever Did.
Gary, please send your marvellous rhetoric to Jonah. It would give us LOL to see your cheeto prints throughout his legacy paper.
Look, it would be *easy* to overload this thread with links to scientific proofs backing up “Truther” assertions, but what would the point be?
Ummm… to make some sense? To avoid loading up the thread with personal attacks and emotional rants? To, I don’t know, convince some people? To take the easy way out?
I vote for links to truly scientific proofs instead! Infinitely more interesting.
But, do make sure the sites to which you link are scientific and provide actual proofs, please. We’re all thoroughly conversant with the theory and rants, thank you very much.
Banning Gerry Adams never helped anyone.
You know I would TOTALLY be into some 911 Conspiracy goodness, I’d drink that cool aid. If only BushCo. wasn’t COMPLETELY INCOMPETENT. These guys cant even run a bake sale, let alone pull off a secret op that would leave the Illuminati, SPECTER, HYDRA and Miguelito Loveless confused.
Nope I chalk 911 up to the same thing that has caused every disaster on the past 7 years- a bunch of fucking blueblood idiots in charge
Blew the punchline, damnit!
Shoulda been, To take the “easy” way out?
If there were Truther Bingo a la Creationist Bingo, whateverdude would be made of win.
Look, it would be *easy* to overload this thread with links to scientific proofs backing up “Truther” assertions
Ok, but before you take the “easy” solution, lemme ask you a “hard” question.
Why has all this overwhelming scientific evidence failed to convince anyone of any consequence in the appropriate disciplines of science and engineering?
In other words, why, if they can prove something different happened, do they encounter so much professional resistance to their theories?
Now this oughta be good…
mikey
nitpicker said,
This reminded me of the Nitpicker I gave up on due to lack of updates. It’s back and there’s a very funny post about how someone thinks liberals are appallingly ignorant of history ends the screed with
Thank you, potentially the Nitpicker I love, and forgive my impatience.
“What can we do to get the word out about the bombing and strafing of residential neighborhoods in Sadr City in this latest round of assaults. Thousands of women and children are homeless and hundreds have been killed and wounded just in the past two weeks.”
“Never mind that, what about 9/11?!?!?!? There is evidence that the criminal Bush administration is responsible for the death of thousands of people on 9/11!!”
Well, for what it’s worth, I’ve never broken up a meeting this way and wouldn’t. However, you inadvertantly bring up an interesting issue. Obama has already declared that he’s not going to pursue the treachery of the Bushies because he’s fearful that *Republicans* would see any investigation as being a “witch hunt”. He says we’ve got way to many things to address in the current situation and therefore have to abandon the broken laws of the past.
This is very much part and parcel of what your imaginary political group it telling the “Truther”. In effect, it’s “So what if our country was attacked by a coup consisting of our top governmental, military and industrial people, intent on destroying the Constitution and installing a fascist dictatorship! Don’t you see we have to do something about the after-effects of that coup, going on in countries thousands of miles from ours, rather than do something about the coup that’s causing all of these problems??”.
All problems need to be addressed, but some of us imagine that we should think in terms of priorities. If that’s not a reasonable approach in your mind, then we have *another* disagreement.
Also sentence-writing not me good at.
I smell new long thread!
I call dibs on 1776.
I actually have. Enjoy your fulminating.
Yeah. Saw the site you posted. (heh) Nice “research” ya got there…
Whateverdude, you won’t change their minds.
For what its worth, I see your point. This just isn’t the forum.
I have many points to bring up, but I don’t feel like taking on people I consider to be on my team. Since we agree on almost everything else (don’t bring up Nader, either) I am happy to agree to disagree.
Bush helped to rebuild Afghanistan’s lagging agriculture industry by expanding opium poppy production.
Record-level crops for the past few years.
NEW RULE:
Can We Please Postpone the Circular Firing Squad?
CWPPCFS?
I smell new long thread!
Me too. But I have to admit that sparring about 9/11 stuff is a step up from an unending round of shit from “homosexuals are aids monkeys”.
Can We Please Postpone the Circular Firing Squad?
No way. Whatever’s totally on the trail of the Loch Ness Monster. Illuminati plot dontcha know.
The world can never be fucked up enough for conspiracy theorists. The same people who believe BushCo. engineered 9/11 (and yet somehow couldn’t keep the outing of Valerie Plame a secret), believe the ruling class are lizards from another planet. They are avid listeners of the Art Bell show, believe in ghosts and demonic possession. Believe in enough of this shit and you have every excuse in the world not to get off your duff and do something useful to solve the very human problems that plague the world. The human angle is simply too boring for them…and too trying. It demands too much of them. It’s much easier living in a comic book fantasy of good and evil.
whateverdude, Nope. Quit trying to change the subject. You claimed to be able to offer scientific proof!
C’mon, dude! Take the “easy” way out!
Not to mention National Public Radio and the LA Times.
Wow!! This is an actual truther website! Truth to power man!
Stick it to the Man.. uh, man!
You guys are going to lose a sure thing election in Nov. and you’re too stupid to understand why. It’s simple, it’s because of your delusions.
Pfft.
Some of us can believe in ghosts, aliens and Loch Ness and not be crazy, thank you very much.
9/11 Wasn’t An Inside Job.
(Bigfoot Is Totally Real, Though.)
Hey, it’s That Guy again.
Hi, racist.
Y’see, Bubba, I disagree that the ‘truther’ dude won’t be able to change any minds here. If he really offered up scientific proof (and not just more theories from only Steve Jones, btw), he might change my mind.
I’ll just take the opp to reiterate: extraordinary theories require extraordinary evidence!
NEW RULE:
Can We Please Postpone the Circular Firing Squad?
CWPPCFS?
It would be nice wouldn’t it?
You guys are lucky I have a seriosly impending deadline.
But start with the surveillance cam of the ‘plane’ hitting the pentagon….
Discuss.
It kinda bugs me that just as this site got a breather from Troll A, another one wanders in. I’m not sayin’ it’s a conspiracy but gee whiz…some R&R between visits would be appreciated!
And any minute now somebody’s gonna find Flight 77 stored in a hanger in area 51!!
mikey
W. Kiernan said,
May 13, 2008 at 0:41
Goldberg is Bush’s legacy.
Nope sorry, this one I have to lay at the feet of Bill Clinton.
There are some very odd circumstances surrounding 9/11, but I would look for the most likely, simplest explanation: the buildings were not as well-constructed as claimed, or perhaps affected by age; and collapsed under less stress than expected.
I really believe Bush/cheney and pals are just too stupid to pull of a plot o the magnitude 9/11 theorists suspect.
Another Bush Legacy: hugely increased voter participation. People are beginning to realize that it *is* important to vote, and every vote counts.
I have a question: Why don’t National elections start at the same time coast-to-coast? 9am on the East and 6am West Coast? And I suppose 8-7 Central. It seems fairer.
And any minute now somebody’s gonna find Flight 77 stored in a hanger in area 51!!
Since I have linked to this it is now proof.
Lesley,
Make lemonade from lemons and make the trolls your R&R!
Ponder their inanities! Roar with laughter at their lack of logic! Create witty ripostes with which to destroy their puny brains!
Try it! It’s fun!
9am on the East and 6am West Coast? And I suppose 8-7 Central. It seems fairer.
Well, fairer if you don’t work or don’t work for a company/boss who happily follows the law…
Otherwise, the rest of us working folks vote before work to minimize hassle and maximize democracy.
I think there should be more about mikey’s wang in this thread. It is, was, after all, snipped BY HENRY KISSINGER HIMSELF AT THE BEHEST OF THE CARLYLE GROUP!
And when are we going to allow convicted felons to vote?
Seems unfair to just let the ones who got away with it do so.
Bubba! The meta! I’m all confused!!!!!!
What?
And when are we going to allow convicted felons to vote?
As soon as the Republicans realize it’ll double the number of votes they get?
I have a question: Why don’t National elections start at the same time coast-to-coast? 9am on the East and 6am West Coast? And I suppose 8-7 Central. It seems fairer.
You know, that makes sense.
Not only that, but the past few months have really made me wish that all the states in the USA would vote on the same day. That way, it would be much harder to get the kind of split within one party, and the bitterness it has caused, such as between Clinton & Obama. I really do hate to see people who have a lot in common, and who are not really that different in their outlook, fighting over scraps like this.
We already have a thread for historical observations.
If whatever doesn’t have something relevant for the year 1695, he’s just going to have to wait his turn.
Like everybody else.
Hmph!
Well, fairer if you don’t work or don’t work for a company/boss who happily follows the law…
Otherwise, the rest of us working folks vote before work to minimize hassle and maximize democracy.
You could make laws that would ensure that the polls were open early, and closed late, in every precinct of every district. It wouldn’t even cost all that much. You would have to pay people some more to do it, is all.
Whateverdude wrote:
Clearly.
Let me give you some advice. It should be obvious even to you that people have good reason to be very wary of 9/11 conspiracy theories, since quite a few of the theorists are outright cranks. If you want to convince people that you’ve got evidence that’s worth looking at, you need to learn to shrug off the inevitable sharp skepticism, to provide links to sites you think are worthwhile, and to calmly invite anyone who’s interested to check it out. That’s a lot more effective than telling everyone who disagrees with you that they’re ignorant shitheads.
On the other hand, if your evidence is the usual truther junk, then getting belligerent probably works about as well as anything else.
Why has all this overwhelming scientific evidence failed to convince anyone of any consequence in the appropriate disciplines of science and engineering?
In other words, why, if they can prove something different happened, do they encounter so much professional resistance to their theories?
Well, your premise is flawed. The government itself, even using people intimately connected to the Bush administration to direct the investigations, can’t bring itself to say it has a sensible explanation for what happened, on the contrary, it can’t explain it (and they really tried). I suppose that most readers here have some awareness of how interlinked the world of science and government are intertwined, what with science dependant on government/agency/military grants to survive, right? It’s this kind of shit that has shown the Bushies supressing ALL kinds of science, from global warming to food safety to birth control.
If you’ve been paying attention, you’ll know that scientists are closely controlled by all kinds of pressure, including the twisting of non-disclosure agreements, threats of demotion and dismissal, withholding of funding and so on, and there has likely never been an administration that has abused this shit the way that the Bushies have. I have no doubts whatsoever that in a different political climate you’d find scientists crawling out of the woodwork to point out absurdity after absurdity in the “official story”. Still, there are a surprising number of brave souls who are speaking their minds in spite of the consequences (which could be fairly dire, for someone opposing governmental orthodoxy). Here are a few links:
http://stj911.org/
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2008/04/14-structural-engineers-have-now.html
http://physics911.net/
If you actually bother to read some of this, Mikey, you’ll probably find that this subject that you’d assumed was fairly cut and dry…….isn’t.
You could make laws that would ensure that the polls were open early, and closed late, in every precinct of every district. It wouldn’t even cost all that much.
Right. That’s what we have now. Fozzetti was proposing having polls in the East open later, not earlier. I was pointing out how that would hurt working folks with uncooperative employers.
Why has all this overwhelming scientific evidence failed to convince anyone of any consequence in the appropriate disciplines of science and engineering?
In other words, why, if they can prove something different happened, do they encounter so much professional resistance to their theories?
Well, your premise is flawed. The government itself, even using people intimately connected to the Bush administration to direct the investigations, can’t bring itself to say it has a sensible explanation for what happened, on the contrary, it can’t explain it (and they really tried). I suppose that most readers here have some awareness of how interlinked the world of science and government are intertwined, what with science dependant on government/agency/military grants to survive, right? It’s this kind of shit that has shown the Bushies supressing ALL kinds of science, from global warming to food safety to birth control.
If you’ve been paying attention, you’ll know that scientists are closely controlled by all kinds of pressure, including the twisting of non-disclosure agreements, threats of demotion and dismissal, withholding of funding and so on, and there has likely never been an administration that has abused this shit the way that the Bushies have. I have no doubts whatsoever that in a different political climate you’d find scientists crawling out of the woodwork to point out absurdity after absurdity in the “official story”. Still, there are a surprising number of brave souls who are speaking their minds in spite of the consequences (which could be fairly dire, for someone opposing governmental orthodoxy). Here are a few links:
http://stj911.org/
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2008/04/14-structural-engineers-have-now.html
http://physics911.net/
If you actually bother to read some of this, Mikey, you’ll probably find that this subject that you’d assumed was fairly cut and dry…….isn’t. In fact, it’s pretty disturbing.
Why has all this overwhelming scientific evidence failed to convince anyone of any consequence in the appropriate disciplines of science and engineering?
It’s not just the experts who see the “truth about 9-11” bullshit as being, well, bullshit. It’s anyone who’s familiar with even the most basic concepts of structural mechanics. Like me. Any average graduate of an architecture or structural engineering program can quickly spot the scientific fallacies in the Truthers’ arguments…and the fallacies are legion.
In every in-depth conversation I’ve ever had with any of the Truthers, they have quickly revealed stunning ignorance about the basic laws of physics…which as we all know, don’t change to suit anyone’s political agenda. On a purely scientific level, their claims are full of FAIL. Then there’s all the logical, common-sense reasons why their theories make no sense.
Yeah, no.
Bigfoot’s still real though, folks. Just want to keep that out there.
Shorter Sadly!No: Everything bad that has happened in the past eight years is George W Bush’s fault.
You folks clearly have issues with anger, envy, and paranoia, issues that I really can’t help you with. The Clintons let terrorism fester, just as they let Iraq fester, and the result was 9/11. Really folks, you can’t have it both ways! If, as liberals believe, 9/11 was America’s chickens coming home to roost, they were Clinton’s chickens – or did you think America pursued an isolationist strategy from 1992 to 2001?
Since 9/11/2001, there have been exactly – wait for it – ZERO terrorist attacks on American soil. Could it be because the Bush administration aggressively pursued the terrorists across the Earth? I think so, and I think most Americans will judge so as well.
So there is something substantive to chew on, Jim and company. Appeasement doesn’t work. Obama won’t have the chance to find that out, since he is unelectable, and we can all thank Allah for that. You folks will just have another four years grist for the mill – and that’s not so bad, is it?
By the way, “The Truth” monikor doesn’t mean I am a 9/11 “truther”. Al Qaeda was responsible for 9/11, the same Al Qaeda that the Bush Administration – praise Allah – has devastated.
The human angle is simply too boring for [conspiracy theorists]…and too trying. It demands too much of them. It’s much easier living in a comic book fantasy of good and evil.
Maybe for some, but I don’t think that’s the case for all.
Humans are very well-wired to find patterns in seemingly chaotic data– heck, it was probably a useful surivival trait for our savannah-wandering hominid ancestors, being able to realize that that particular patch of spotty sunlight was actually a dangerous creature (run!). Even now, it drives a lot of human creativity and thought– what can we make of this weather pattern? Wow, those clouds look like faces– I’ll write a poem about it; and so on.
But it also sometimes means that we get false positives (“That smudge on the wall really is The Virgin Mary, and it MEANS SOMETHING”), or more often that people try very very hard to tie together data that really is just chaos (“It can’t have just been some lucky crazy son-of-a-bitch in the Texas Book Repository! It HAS to take more than that to take out a President!”).
Make lemonade from lemons and make the trolls your R&R!
Doodlebean, trollemons are very very bitter and there’s never enough sugar.
The fact is, Doug Feith has a blog now where he can tell all you liberals to shut up about him being so fucking stupid.
Cursed WordPress, remembering my aliases!
The “Yeah no.” is in response to whatever’s same old ‘truther’ crap. God, can you at least jazz it up with some new gag. God, it’s people like you who make “Reagan made a deal to hold the Iranian hostages until inaugurated” look sketchy as a premise.
Ooh, whateverdude, no sale! What you claimed to offer was ‘scientific proof’.
Perhaps you are unclear on what constitutes ‘scientific proof’. Kindly allow me to define it as publications in a credible, peer-reviewed journal offering evidence for your hypothesis.
Since you’ve mentioned the ‘mysterious’ collapse of WTC 7, let’s start there.
Do you have links to any peer-reviewed articles in a credible structural engineering journal (yeah, you can count ‘engineering’ as ‘scientific’. They even use math in their stuff!) providing evidence that the WTC 7 collapse was, in fact, a planned demolition? How about any articles in credible, peer-reviewed journals for related fields?
Hmmmmm… try again. Take the “easy” way out, dude!
Doodlebean, trollemons are very very bitter and there’s never enough sugar.
See? There’s your problem right there! If you fry them, they turn sweet with no added sugar necessary.
It’s kind of like wild grapes being incredibly sour until after the first frost of the Autumn and then they turn sweet but completely different!
If, as liberals believe, 9/11 was America’s chickens coming home to roost, they were Clinton’s chickens – or did you think America pursued an isolationist strategy from 1992 to 2001?
Remind me again who were the Presidents during the whole of the 80s and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, when the CIA trained Osama bin Ladin and helped organize Al-Qaeda into a terrorist organization?
Cause I’m pretty sure Bill Clinton was murdering Vince Foster at the time.
ZERO terrorist attacks on American soil.
Lie #1
all the states in the USA would vote on the same day. That way, it would be much harder to get the kind of split within one party
I too, at one time, thought a national primary would be a good thing. Until my ever sensible ‘Ho pointed out that suck a scheme seriously stacks the deck against “smaller” candidates. A national primary would only lead to the most emntrenched, established candidates getting the votes, due their ability to put together a national campaign from the get-go.
I like the small state lead-in, where candidates like, say, Obama, can establish themselves without having to assemble and fund a huge motherfucking campaign. If not for our current approach, we wouldn’t have Obama presumptive. Or McCain, for that matter but who gives a shit about McClair?
Still, the rest of the primary season could stand some serious tightening.
…the same Al Qaeda that the Bush Administration – praise Allah – has devastated.
OMG! Da Troof wrote, “raise Allah!” and has information about the state of Al Qaeda that only an insider would know!
I’m thinking Da Troof is actually a member of Al Qaeda! And doesn’t that explain quite a bit?
For what its worth, I see your point. This just isn’t the forum.
I have many points to bring up, but I don’t feel like taking on people I consider to be on my team.
My point exactly. We’re supposedly on the same team, yet “Truthers” are subjected to this “crazy and insane delusions” bullshit and get called trolls when we object to it.
WHAT THE FUCK IS WITH YOU PEOPLE?
Seriously, WTF?? Is there something in the goddamned water that has everyone to the left of Dick Cheney at each others throats over bullshit issues? I’ve *never* seen the “liberal” environment less liberal in my relatively long lifetime……is that passing you by too? Do you not see how this incessant hostility towards anyone who doesn’t walk in lockstep with your increasing smaller crowd is going to fuck us all in the coming year?
(heh) Chums……..we’ve just got WAY too much to do for you to be fomenting trouble in the myriad factions that are pro-democracy, anti-fascist.
Brandi – I think the second part of your statement would more properly be be this .
the Bush administration aggressively pursued the terrorists across the Earth?
Lie #2
yeah the 9/11 truthers are full of shit.
The Reichstadt fire was real
Pearl Harbor was a total surprise
The 2000 election was NOT rigged
The 2002 election was NOT rigged
The 2004 election was NOT rigged
The 2008 election will NOT be rigged (if it is held at all)
The economy is fine
Santa Claus is real.
Sheesh.
getaclue
Aside from the ‘heckofajob’ such a conspiracy requires, isn’t flying two planes into two buildings AND rigging those same buildings for demolition overkill? I mean one or the other would have sufficed don’t you think? It’s all too grandiose a plan. Especially for a president, who at the time, was perpetually on vacation. And if they’d done it, why didn’t they bury the shared intelligence that preceded the event? You know, the information Bush had that bin Laden was planning an attack. The intelligence he sat on. It doesn’t exactly make him look good does it? If he’d been able to actually execute such an event, surely he would have buried that intelligence.
Nice rant, whateverdude. But, ya know, I was really hoping for some scientific proof.
I know. Horribly non-liberal of me! But you did promise…
Another Bush legacy: Mad Cow Disease
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080509/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/mad_cow
No, shut up, show some evidence.
Or continue taking the easy way out.
Could it be because the Bush administration aggressively pursued the terrorists across the Earth? I think so, and I think most Americans will judge so as well
Lie #3
Kindly allow me to define it as publications in a credible, peer-reviewed journal offering evidence for your hypothesis.
Holy shit. Try again, and read this time. “Peer reviewed”, just as you defined it.
Or weren’t you aware of that, with all of the “research” you’ve done?
Good point Lesley. But you forgot the evil mastermind, Bush’s Brain, the ur-nefarious Rovester! The same infallible genius who created the permanent Republican majority! So take that!!!,….er, I mean,….ummm. . .
Oh never mind.
I’m thinking Da Troof is actually a member of Al Qaeda! And doesn’t that explain quite a bit?
Sure does.
Obama won’t have the chance to find that out, since he is unelectable, and we can all thank Allah for that.
Ho hum
Lie #4
I call performance troll.
Erm, “peer-review” is generally understood to mean people with academic and/or other credentials doing the reviewing. The peers of a lunatic don’t really count, sorry.
I’m sorry, the mikey’s wang thread is downstairs in the basement. This is the tinfoil hat thread. The escalator’s right over there.
You’re welcome.
Actually, many, if not most states do. I vote regularly in california. I’ve never looked up the numbers, but it’s pretty widespread. If you are not incarcerated and not on parole, california and many other states do not disenfranchise you.
There is even a very strong and active movement to enfranchise felons in florida…
mikey
Gerry Adams? IRA? The only Americans who gave support to that particular band of terrorists were Irish-Americans in NY and Boston. Who are mostly Democrats. Bush had nothing to lose by pissing them off.
Now, Cuban-Americans, who overwhelmingly vote GOP, are another story. Known terrorists, international fugitives, are allowed their freedom to give fundraising speeches and the White House won’t say a damned thing.
With Bush, EVERYTHING is partisan politics, including prosecution of known terrorists.
Most of us are not structural engineers or metallurgists.
Not to throw any more gas on this fire, but as I recall, the first, and for a long while the only, people raising questions were in fact engineers and metallurgists. The first guy who ever told me about his suspicions was a retired thermodynamicist (a literal rocket scientist) and the next guy who brought it up was a mechanical engineer. Both of them were lifelong Republicans, btw.
I don’t know. I do find it interesting that when a building has to be brought down inside its own footprint, it takes months of careful preparation and precisely timed high explosives. Who knew it could be done by just igniting a shitload of jet fuel in the upper floors and waiting a couple of hours?
a surprising number of brave souls who are speaking their minds in spite of the consequences (which could be fairly dire, for someone opposing governmental orthodoxy).
And Noam Chomsky isn’t dead why?
Seriously, WTF?? Is there something in the goddamned water that has everyone to the left of Dick Cheney at each others throats over bullshit issues? I’ve *never* seen the “liberal” environment less liberal in my relatively long lifetime……is that passing you by too? Do you not see how this incessant hostility towards anyone who doesn’t walk in lockstep with your increasing smaller crowd is going to fuck us all in the coming year?
I can guarantee you one thing. If any Democratic candidate started yapping this conspiracy theory crap during the election campaign they would be tarred and feathered and lose by a landslide and it’d be at least 4 more years of Bush policies. But I’m guessing strategic campaigning isn’t all that important to you. Your truth first, eh? Fuck everything and everybody else.
Ah, ‘peer-reviewed’ but not credible. To provided ‘scientific proof’, you need to cite articles in what are called the ‘journals of record’. Those are the publications which are agreed to be credible by members in various fields such as Structural Engineering or Materials Science.
Something like, American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) Journal of Structural Engineering or Progress in Structural Engineering and Materials.
You know! Something where the ‘peers’ actually have expertise in the fields under discussion — such as Steve Jones in Geophysics and Judy Woods in Dentistry.
You folks clearly have issues with anger, envy, and paranoia
Lie #5
Atheist,
What reductionist garbage you post. Barack is electable because Democrats say so? Bush hasn’t pursued terrorists because Obama is still at large? Anthrax attacks from a few days post 9/11 prove Bush isn’t serious about terrorism? Please. If this is the best you have, I can really breathe easy about Obama being defeated soundly in November.
I remember on Sep 12 2001 we all swore we’d never forget, but I guess some people did. I’m glad that the Bush adminstration has made a priority of the tracking down and killing terrorists all over the world, and that is nothing a bunch of pathetic, juvenile grad student / temporary instructor types can change.
My real question for you folks is: What are you going to do when Obama is defeated? Give any thought to that, or are you just worried about getting that dissertation on the evils of Western civilization done?
Jonah Goldberg’s book was peer-reviewed.
What’re you going to do when Obama wins? Have you given thought to that, or have you just been having too much fun with your current piece of performance art that you haven’t thought up what you’ll do when it’s obsolete?
Lesley,
Luckily I swallowed my tea before I read that! LOL!
Oh, and Mr. Whatever?
It is a VERY liberal trait to believe evidence, and trust experts in fields where we do not have expertise. I will not have patience with the craziness and foul tactics of the ID/Creationists, I accept the scientific conclusions on evolution and the age of the earth. I accept the conclusions of the scientific community on global warming, and have no patience with with idiots and tools like Inhofe.
So your conclusion that there is something less than “liberal” about questioning people who hold wacky beliefs in contradiction to established fact, and telling them to present their evidence to the community of experts, who, by the way, are NOT in on it, dood, sounds pretty similar to their modes and methods of argument…
mikey
I don’t know. I do find it interesting that when a building has to be brought down inside its own footprint, it takes months of careful preparation and precisely timed high explosives. Who knew it could be done by just igniting a shitload of jet fuel in the upper floors and waiting a couple of hours?
The first sentence there is the operative one. The WTC did not fall entirely inside its own footprint, nor would it have been possible for it to do so since the material in the structure wouldn’t fit inside the footprint once the buildings collapsed. And in fact you can pretty clearly see this in video of the collapse, as billowing clouds of pulverized concrete and other debris are thrown hundreds of feet out on all sides of the pancaking structure. Secondly, how a building falls depends on the type of structure it has. A pier and beam building is going to behave differently in collapse than a bearing wall structure.
Your comment illustrates exactly what I was saying in my previous comment.
If whateverdude is correct, why is he alive????????????????//
My Occam’s Razor test is cui bono?
Who had the means, motivation, and opportunity to carry out the crime?
The bullshit arguments about fake planes and the Mossad are entertaining, but I have yet to hear anyone give an explanation of 9-11 that doesn’t/can’t implicate Darth Cheney.
Which isn’t to say that Bush didn’t perform miserably that day and those that followed, and that he and his crew don’t deserve our eternal loathing based on actual facts accepted by all sides.
Until then all I’ve seen is a bong and stack of Marvel What If? comics.
Dude, stay the hell out of my room. Seriously.
I remember on Sep 12 2001 we all swore we’d never forget, but I guess some people did.
I’m never going to forget that Bush allowed 9/11 to happen because he was too stupid to heed the warnings he received.
And then, as a matter of course, he lied about it.
Oh, and to add the most salient fact about why buildings with this type of construction have a tendency to fall more or less straight down into their footprint, more or less: gravity doesn’t pull things to the right or left before pulling them straight to ground. This is real life, dude, not a Road Runner cartoon.
Anthrax attacks from a few days post 9/11 prove Bush isn’t serious about terrorism?
You said: “Since 9/11/2001, there have been exactly – wait for it – ZERO terrorist attacks on American soil.” Your words- not mine. You lied there, because there have been terrorist attacks on Americans soil since 9/11.
Bush hasn’t pursued terrorists because Obama is still at large?
Obama? No, idiot. You said: “the Bush administration aggressively pursued the terrorists across the Earth”. Your words. You lied there, as Bush has obviously not pursued terrorists across the earth. In fact, he appears quite content to have Osama Bin Laden free and alive. And has even said so on television.
Some people can’t get enough paranoia. It beats facing reality. Oh wait, I just realized I.. I.. I ..am not in touch with actual reality but living a dreaaaaaaaaaaaaam.
Whatever dude…you know what? 9/11 never really happened. It’s all in your mind. George Bush engineered a universal lucid dream…
Yes, he’s that good.
That’s ‘Reichstag’. And I hate to be the one to tell you this, but no, the Nazis didn’t burn it down. They just took advantage of the situation.
But don’t let me get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
Holy citation Batman! Even Wikipedia the WIKI-FUCKING-PEDIA Building 7 article has credible citations that put the lie to the WTC7 “had to be blown up” nonsense.
I did a quick gazoogling and the first hundred or so hits all have the same unproven assertion. It’s often not even an assertion but one of those “Is it possible..” or “How likely is it that…” Yeah. If I wanted to know how likely it was, or whether it was possible I’d ask some structural engineers, not a blogger.
Here’s an idea for you conspiracy nuts: How could it be that such tiny things as bacteria could kill an organism as large as a person? No one has ever seen bacteria actually killing people! The doctoirs are hiding something! DOCTORS ARE CAUSING THE DISEASE!!!!!! THE ANUS IS AN EXIT NOT AN ENTRANCE! SPACE ALIENS ARE LIVING IN MY EARDRUMS!!!!!
Barack is electable because Democrats say so?
Oh. My. Goodness!
You make this too dang easy, The Lie.
The space aliens in my eardrums are demanding pie. Damn them all to hell.
Stryx, with all due respect, call it “Stryx’s Razor” instead so I can hold on to the tattered shreds of my clutch on reality (Occam’s Razor being one of my most beloved rules for life and research!))
Just note that there is at least one teensy-tiny flaw in your rule: sometimes stuff happens which benefits folks who have had nothing at all to do with the event. If I may give you one example, I’ll tell you the story of a Swamp Maple to the east of my garden. This maple was about 40 feet tall, shaded the best garden area and was kind of unsightly. But still, I like trees and trees are important, so I didn’t ask my landlord if I could take it down… or so I say, anyway!
One night, in a wind, that tree fell and opened up my garden site to an additional 6-8 hours of sunlight. Suddenly, I could grow more stuff! Better stuff! Tasty stuff! Lettuce! Tomatillos! Blackberries! I benefited.
But did I have anything all all to do with the fall of the tree? No.
Swamp Maples tend to grow and then rot. The tall ones become unstable and fall down. I had nothing to do with it other than waking up in a fright when it fell.
So, there’s that.
Kindly allow me to define it as publications in a credible, peer-reviewed journal offering evidence for your hypothesis.
Publication in a journal isn’t what makes it science.
I’d like to see hard evidence that whateverdude isn’t an incarnation of the aidsmonkey troll. Yes, I’m that paranoid.
Atheist,
Now don’t get angry, young man. I did put a revealing little typo in my last post – perhaps I was distracted by laughing at your latest “proof” of Republican perfidy, an article from a professor who hates Republicans stating that Republicans are nasty.
I am very pleased that since Sep 11, the Bush adminstration has prevented any further terrorist attacks on the US. You somehow take solace in the anthrax attacks, comforting yourself that Americans were hit in the weeks before the Bush team could get a handle on things. Fine. Let’s just say we’ve all benefited from the terrorists being on the run over these past seven years, even liberals who take delight in political potshots at the very people who are protecting them.
Compare this to Bill Clinton, who lobbed missiles at Sudanese aspirin factories while getting blow jobs from chubby interns and who turned down an offer to take bin Laden into custody. This is the legacy of the last Democratic administration, one that never received the majority of the popular vote by the way.
And who knows when the next one will be? Don’t worry, folks, I’m laughing near you, not at you. Well, not yet, anyway.
The space aliens in my eardrums are demanding pie. Damn them all to hell.
Ffffffffft PeeJ, take your own advice and make lemon meringue out of that why dontcha. 🙂
Compare this to Bill Clinton, who lobbed missiles at Sudanese aspirin factories while getting blow jobs from chubby interns and who turned down an offer to take bin Laden into custody. This is the legacy of the last Democratic administration, one that never received the majority of the popular vote by the way.
Yes, this clearly establishes your unbiased bona fides.
Coming soon to an election near Mr. Truth. Much laughter and hilarity, at his expense.
*forwards mr. truth’s message to jonah goldberg for his legacy report, soon to be peer-reviewed by mr. truth*
So, DB, this would put you in the “let it happen on purpose” side of the truth divide, right?
If I remember right, Clinton turned down an offer to assassinate and therefore martyr bin Ladin. Which would’ve been a geopolitical mistake of epic proportions.
But oh gosh, what a photo op that assasination could’ve been!
Stupid, stupid Clinton.
Ah, ‘peer-reviewed’ but not credible. To provided ’scientific proof’, you need to cite articles in what are called the ‘journals of record’. Those are the publications which are agreed to be credible by members in various fields such as Structural Engineering or Materials Science.
Something like, American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) Journal of Structural Engineering or Progress in Structural Engineering and Materials.
Uh-huh. Like I said (several times now) peer reviewed….and in spite of your adding “qualifiers” each time, a “credible” journal of record. I’ll be delighted to post the entire thing for you if needed (since you’re having such reading comprehension problems).
**************************************************************************************************
From: The Open Civil Engineering Journal, 2008, 2, 35-40
Fourteen Points of Agreement with Official Government Reports on the World Trade Center Destruction
Steven E. Jones, Frank M. Legge, Kevin R. Ryan, Anthony F. Szamboti, and James R. Gourley
Abstract: Reports by FEMA and NIST lay out the official account of the destruction of the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001. In this Letter, we wish to set a foundation for productive discussion and understanding by focusing on those areas where we find common ground with FEMA and NIST, while at the same time countering several popular myths about the WTC collapses.
I’m all but certain The UnTruth is our old un-friend Kevin. Are you Kevin, troll? Condescending, smarmy . . . no comments about dirty fucking hippies needing to get a job yet (I don’t think, I haven’t actually read any of Truthies comments all the way through) and nothing about lawn mowing, but still . . . it’s that tone.
Publication in a journal isn’t what makes it science.
Not sure what you mean. I’ll agree with you that technically, publication in a credible, peer-reviewed journal is the result of the science and not the science itself. And it’s the best thing we have to offer if we are offering scientific proof of something. As whateverdude offered scientific proof of his 9/11 beliefs.
Since I’m waxing
verboseeloquent tonight, allow me to give an example. No Swamp Maples, I promise!Say I think that regular tooth-brushing and flossing reduces gingivitis (gum disease). To prove that thought, I do the science – i.e. I do a study with a statistically significant group of people: I have my test group who brush and floss regularly, I have a control group who rarely brush and floss (ewwww), I devise a method to quantify gingivitis, I measure the amount of gingivitis in the two groups and compare the measurements using the magic of data analysis techniques. I decide that the data supports my idea and write up lots of good arguments based on the data why other people should decide that too, then write it all up and submit it for publication in a credible, peer-reviewed journal.
If it’s accepted for publication, I can start to say things such as, “I have proof that regular brushing and flossing reduces gingivitis!” and I can even go onto internet website comments sections and write that statement with glee!
The science is all that stuff which happens before publication; the proof is in the article. Well, especially if it can be replicated by other scientists. But usually what happens with most good articles with lots of good data is that they are accepted as that thing we call ‘scientific proof’.
Seen on another blog.
Might be the PERFECT time for it here.
How do we know that you didn’t wait for a windy night and wrap two turns of yellow primacord around that ol’ swamp maple with a tiny detonator on a burn timer and crackle POP the tree is no longer a problem.
Theres http:/www.doodlebeanhatestrees.org
and http:/www.swampmapletruth.com
for all the evidence you’ll ever need…
mikey
Now don’t get angry, young man.
Angry? I’m laughin’ my ass off.
even liberals who take delight in political potshots at the very people who are protecting them.
You’re protecting me? Oh. Well, I hate to have to say this, but you should probably stop. You seem a little confused between reality and illusion. Why don’t you go have a drink and calm down?
Back to Bush’s legacy… shit, where to start.
Rather than any single blunder, I’d have to go with the overall effect he’s had on American politics – there’s been a sort of collapse in understanding what the basic purpose of government is. Instead of an administration that tries to implement coherent policy we’ve had a spasmodic series of immense, catastrophic PR gimmicks. Even the war in Iraq seems to have been as much about winning in 2004 as anything else.
————————-
And as for the Saul troll, I’ve been in favor of banning him for a long time. Sadly, No’s opposition to banning is commendable, but this asshole’s obviously been abusing it bigtime for many months.
I agree. He’s pretty clearly not stating what he believes, but posting whatever he thinks is most likely to piss people off. Like a kid playing a prank, but over and over and over again.
Condescending, smarmy
But not especially intelligent.. yes, somewhat like Kevin.
Ah, whateverdude! Nice try at sleight of hand! But, still no sale.
Anybody can write a Letter* to an engineering journal. It might even be published. It’s like a letter to the editor. Is it the same as a peer-reviewed article being published by that journal?
Sadly, No!
And is The Open Civil Engineering Journal in Dundee, Scotland a journal of record for Civil Engineers?
Sadly (for you), No!
*Yep. Sorry, but it’s right there in the second sentence. At least they used good form…
Someone said once, “publications are what you salvage from the wreckage of your experiments.”
Good luck replicating any of the things you claim need Vulcan proof.
Anyway, what I really want to know is: Positive Vibration- best Wailers song ever?
Compare this to Bill Clinton, who lobbed missiles at Sudanese aspirin factories while getting blow jobs from chubby interns
Man, Clinton had some energy! Missile attacks- and oral sex- at the same exact time!
So unlike lazy-ass Bush.
Ffffffffft PeeJ, take your own advice and make lemon meringue out of that why dontcha. 🙂
Hey! That was my advice!!!!!
So, DB, this would put you in the “let it happen on purpose” side of the truth divide, right?
Well, I honestly didn’t think that much about it until it happened. But sure, why not…
I let that tree rot on purpose! And I’m horribly non-liberal!
And I brush and floss regularly now that I’ve spent thousands of dollars in dental work!
Sob! It’s true! It’s true!
I could see an argument for Concrete Jungle though.
I’ve been quickly skimming the threat but bear with me, I think I’ve figured something out here: What if Barack Obama was behind 9/11 because he wished to discredit peer reviewed journals in order to prove his electability? Doesn’t everything just starting falling into place: The anthrax attacks. Wasn’t he in Illinois legislature then, suspiciously away from Washington where no one could accuse him of anything? And what about Iraq? Didn’t he suspiciously speak out against it, as if he had some sort of warning from his terrorist allies about what their plans were?
I’ve been quickly skimming the threat…
Don’t worry, Your Grace, we’re mostly harmless. I agree with everything else you wrote, thought. Have any articles to cite?
Your Grace, that’s indisputumable. But it doesn’t explain how Al Gore created climate change because he needed a new gig.
B+
Holy shit, Your Grace, maybe you have something!
I was also looking a this thread and I started thinking, what if metal support struts in buildings melt when you play Bob Marley and just let things happen on purpose? I think we need to have a peer-reviewed scientific study about this!
yes, and that paper is available on 911truth.org, everything about which can be discerned from its steering committee list.
Let’s have a look at the skill set:
– an organizational development consultant, management coach, and workshop facilitator [who] employed his innovative, new-paradigm concepts for “high energy group performance” with such clients as Hoechst, Ringling Brothers/Barnum and Bailey Circus, IKEA, and over seventy TV broadcasting and advertising agencies.
– someone with a degree in sociology
– an activist, parent and graphic designer
– a teacher of mass media and memetics, organizer of populist chautauquas and 9/11 teach-ins with Jim Hightower, Ronnie Dugger, Grannie D, David Korten and others.
– a mother of six, a Kansas City native and radical Christian, with a B.A. from the University of Kansas, half a masters in social welfare and extensive training in direct-entry midwifery.
– a webmaster with a strong science background culminating in the Case Institute of Technology’s electrical engineering program, Dan left school after the incident at Kent State University, 15 miles away. [incident not described.] Since then a self taught student of the human social animal….
– a Professor Sociology at Sonoma State University and Director of Project Censored. He teaches classes in Media Censorship, Sociology of Power, Political Sociology, and Sociology of Media.
– a teacher of philosophy at the University of Rutgers-Camden and Immaculata University.
– founder and editor of the Rock Creek Free Press, a small independent newspaper in Washington, DC.
– Before resigning from the US State Department in 2004 due to excessive secrecy demands, Fred Burks served for many years as a language interpreter for presidents and other dignitaries. …Having participated in numerous secret meetings where the only people allowed were the principles and their interpreters, he has acquired important inside information and contacts.
– After an early adulthood as a Republican activist, Gabriel was an entrepreneur in the computer and wireless industries before being able to solely focus on his political activism. His areas of interests for the 9/11 truth movement are building successful strategies, infrastructure development, media creation, and articulating a positive vision of a post-9/11 truth world.
– a web developer, and a web designer… from the City Of Brotherly Love
– ONE BIG ASS SCIENTIST WITH A LOT OF INITIALS…. now retired.
– A full-time suburban mother and realtor, Donna was formerly a teacher of writing and rhetoric.
– a man who didn’t look closely at 9/11 until 2 years after the attacks and spent a year researching 9/11 before he felt comfortable speaking out. Michael is the co-founder of the Colorado 9-11 Visibility Project, formed in July of 2004 and has helped to build a solid base of 9/11 activists in Colorado.
– 1 Canadian who believes in the theory of conspiracy and is on the radio saying so.
To employ the Bush administration’s favorite ploy, the rhetorical question for which they have an answer ready:
Are the Bushies capable of cynically engineering a situation that leads to widespread death and destruction simply to advance their own political agenda?
Yes, like the Iraq war.
Are the Bushies capable of keeping a lid on their nefarious behavior for very long?
No, because we’ve been subjected to a constant cascade of scandals for several years now. Like the marginally skillful Mafia bosses they are, they can’t help bragging to others how they have buried people, and where those bodies are buried. The more people involved in their schemes, the more sturdy the evidence that is then brought to light.
The pResdient admitted he broke the law about wiretapping in a radio address a few years ago. He openly pardoned Libby. The Abu Ghraib torturers took those pictures for their own amusement, to pass around. They admit there were no WMD’s… and shrug.
They are proud of their ratfucking and want everyone to know they are ratfuckers.
If they had rigged the 9/11 thing, they wouldn’t have sat, stunned and immobile, in a classroom holding a goat book. They wouldn’t have been hiding in various bolt holes and left Richard Clarke in the White House to hold things together.
They wouldn’t have rigged such an event and then followed it up by acting like the craven cowards they are. They would have had something “Mission Accomplished” press event ready to be rolled out to take advantage of their plot.
But they didn’t do that. They just acted like assholes. Surprised and clueless assholes.
So, no, I don’t think they were behind it. They let it happen through idiocy and arrogance.
That’s what they acted like; ergo, that’s what happened.
Well, maybe. But I still say it was those goddamn motherfucking Liechtenstein assholes and their sinister space alien buddies.
Just consider this: what is the likelihood that the totally incompetent fuckwads that comprise this administration, AND the hundreds if not thousands of other players that would have to be involved (from bit parts to major roles) could pull it off without ONE total screw-up, smoke-belching gun left lieing around, without ONE person who can’t keep the secret, ….
I agree as well. Really, 9/11 is just the first public results of their entire governing style.
You have identical patterns of ignored information, mitigating actions *completely* avoided, and denial that there even *could be* a problem, with:
the Katrina disaster
the current economy
the results of the Iraq occupation
So, yeah, I don’t put planning 9/11 past them ethically. Only in terms of their competence – which pretty much makes it impossible.
As far as I do go along the conspiratorial route, is wondering if the Bush Admin knew *something* might happen, and figured they’d avoid looking into it until after it happened, and then have a good rationale to invade the Middle East. And then when it did happen, it was so much worse than they thought it might be that they were really crapping themselves for a few days….
Never forget seeing Bush’s face on TV at the WTC ruins. All the press said how brave and stalwart he looked, etc. etc. – too me, he looked scared and totally, completely out of his depth.
You know it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that 911truthorgy is funded by the Republican Party to make GeorgeBush-haters look like crazy kooks.
Now, on Exodus I prefer Natural Mystic but again I could see an argument for Three Little Birds.
Oh Lesley! Excellent work!
As for the ONE BIG ASS SCIENTIST WITH A LOT OF INITIALS, you may mean Steve Jones, who started out as a Geophysicist doing theoretical and lab research on the earth’s core.
That led to some work with what came to be known as cold fusion (the route is actually quite direct: theory shows that the earth’s core should have cooled and solidified some time ago. Jones’ lab research was looking at how certain combinations of chemicals can self-sustain heating. That led to looking at another form of ‘cold-fusion’ involving iron, iirc).
I could look all that up and give you some links, but I didn’t promise you I would, suckas! Seriously, one of my Physics profs was friends with Steve before he started to go off the rails with cold fusion and you know how department gossip is!
It’s all too grandiose a plan. Especially for a president, who at the time, was perpetually on vacation. And if they’d done it, why didn’t they bury the shared intelligence that preceded the event? You know, the information Bush had that bin Laden was planning an attack. The intelligence he sat on. It doesn’t exactly make him look good does it? If he’d been able to actually execute such an event, surely he would have buried that intelligence.
Have you seen me say somewhere here that Bush was involved in the attack?
I don’t know about the rest of you but I actually still have a memory. I can still recall the odd way that that month-long vacation was announced and how I thought at the time that something was up. Not many people are aware of it but F-16’s circled Bush’s fake ranch that entire month (24 fuckin’ hours a day), which must’ve been one WHOPPING bill for the taxpayers. It also shows what a lie Condi’s little “we had no idea” testimony was, that and the fact that Dickie-boy was heading up military exercises that day that postulated jets ramming into buildings. Bush was clearly kept out of the loop (I mean……..he’s an idiot).
How were they supposed to “bury the shared intelligence” when so many governments knew that something was up? Still, how much time did “journalists” spend on asking the administration why they didn’t at least warn the airlines or increase security in some way? If you can’t acknowledge a conspiracy anywhere else, you’d have to be blind to not see one between our”media” and the government. Example? Ted Olsen calls up CNN in the midst of the attacks (ignoring all Justice Department protocol about such things) to tearfully recount two phone calls that his wife, winger haridan Barbara Olsen, had supposedly made to him from one of the “highjacked” jets. Putting aside the curious nature of his first impulse (calling CNN to discuss his wife’s death moments after it happened), you probably also recall that most of the initial information about “highjackers” and “boxcutters” was from his telling about it. Well, here’s where the conspiracy come in: A lawsuit, not long ago, actually got the phone records of Barbara Olsen and (get ready, Truth-haters) it showed that old Babs NEVER TALKED TO TED, not twice as he claimed, not even *once*.
Now I don’t know about you but………that sounds like a pretty big story to me! Yet, this is probably the first you’ve heard of it, right? Why wouldn’t the “news” follow up on such a huge, strange lie, by the guy that Bush was pushing to replace Gonzales? Ted created a gigantic chunk of 9/11 mythology that day and our media doesn’t even bother to report it, let alone hound him to resign and force Congress to investigate?
If shit THAT big can be hidden THAT effectively, you’d be a putz not to have *some* questions about “the official story”. But maybe that’s just me.
Compare this to Bill Clinton, who lobbed missiles at Sudanese aspirin factories while getting blow jobs from chubby interns
That should definitely be a question in future debates. “What form of bellicose stimulation will you require to maintain sexual arousal with a chubby intern?”
I like to think that most voters would prefer the candidate whose aphrodisiac needs are satisfied by talking smack about Iranian presidents, rather than the one ordering missile attacks and invasions, but I could be wrong.
and seeing Bush’s face on TV at the WTC ruins
I am so down with that! Y’know, he had that look in the classroom. As though something like the following was rattling around in his vacuous skull: “Jeezus fucking christ we let something reallly really big happen! I had no idea it would be this big! What the fuck do I do now? Daddeeeeeee! Wait – Dick will take care of it. He’ll know what to do.”
Sure Doodle… See here :
A less enlightened individual might say that I pulled this at random from work… But us research students in the know can see the hidden messages thrown throughout the peer-reviewed world, much like the Bible Code.
Also, everyone knows that Al Gore’s desires born through Love Story to invent the Internet caused climate change.
Wasn’t it Doughboy who said, at the beginning of this Bush Tyranny™, that he would be remembered as “one of the greatest Presidents in American History” ?? He should simply step up to the podium at the Close Up Foundation, joyously reiterate this gloriousness, then scoot back under Lucianne’s skirts.
Nice try at changing the subject again, whateverdude! However, I’m still waiting for that ‘scientific proof’ you promised.
C’mon, dude! Take the “easy” way out! Show this non-liberal your proof!
argh stupid wordpress, maybe you and Obama are behind it together… http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~elaughba/papers/An_Argument_for_using_a_Function_Approach_when_Teaching_Remedial_Algebra.pdf
…but I could be wrong.
Fortunately, Mr. Clyde, I believe we will have definitive proof in just a few months.
And that is why the trolls are acting up. The rats can’t find the way off their sinking ship, and ….
(I’d like to mix this metaphor but good, but I have to do some laundry, damnit!)
Btw, this just in from TPM:
Alas, the dems can’t win, blah blah
I refuse to respond any further to whateverdude until I get a full IP address audit from the SadlyNo accounting department.
I suspect WD is a long time troll doing his usual waste their time pretending I’m sincere and might be persuaded to change my mind from this insane rant I’m on about.
No, whateverdude is probably serious. If you think WD’s wrong, OK. But it doesn’t make him/her a troll.
I’m generally philosophically opposed to covers, but I’d give Stiff Little Fingers a pass on their version of Johnny Was.
whateverdude, please provide link to lawsuit, or at least the name of the lawsuit (and cite if possible), and link to phone records for Barbara Olsen. kthxbai
I forgot to emphasize that Steve Jones’ field of expertise is geophysics, the earth’s core and cold fuckin’ fusion.
Not metallurgy. Not structural engineering. Not demolition. Not high-temperature steel attack through sulfidation. Not explosives and their residue.
Honestly, I’m dismayed that a Ph.D. would lend his name to that letter – they ‘explain’ why WTC 7 fell by talking about the collapse of WTC 1 and 2. And they cite ordinary fire scene investigation regulations as if they could ever possibly be applied to a scene of devastation as large as the 9/11 disaster?
It wasn’t a home or factory blowing up, for jeebus’ sake!
What a freakin’ mess. The whole letter veers around in spirals, proving nothing. No wonder they couldn’t get it published as a study in a reputable journal.
As soon as he started using “homosexuals are aids monkeys” that clinched it for me. Lines need to be drawn.
Fuck him…
Not even with Jonah’s tiny flaccid dick! Ban him, that IP and all its very tedious aliases and tendentious yammering, I agree. Yammering filth at random barely constitutes trolling — it’s like dignifying an incontinent pet’s stains as ‘interior decoration’.
And the Bush Legacy Gallery of Shame definitely needs to include both the ‘Tiptoe through the bluebonnets holding Bander bin Saud’s hand’ and the ‘My Pet Goat, or, Blowed Up the Say What?’ photoes. The Assistant Rogues gallery should include head shots of that Exxon Jabba-clone defiantly speaking in support of using post-Katrina gas-price ripoffs to fund his own trillion-dollar golden parachute, and maybe a shot of Roger Clements lying his steroid-enhanced arse off in front of that Congressional committee.
Doodle Bean said,
Hey! That was my advice!!!!!
My bad!!!!!!!!!!!!! Damn, it seemed so perfect too, and I so got a thrill of what I thought was my own cleverness.
Next time, Doodlebean, please do me the courtesy of complaining about the space aliens making you eat pie!!!@UI*(&YUH&*
:)))
mikey……..the KickAss Sergeant-at-Arms/Stoic Sage© of the SadlyNaughts™!!
Ooh! Another try at changing the subject from whateverdude!
What’s this one?
F-16’s circled Bush’s fake ranch that entire month (24 fuckin’ hours a day)
Your source for that ‘fact’, dude?
Where’s my goddamn pie?!?!?!??!?!??!!
Space aliens are making me eat pie @UI*(&YUH&*!!!!!!
AAAAaaaeeeeieeieieieiiiiiaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh!
Wait a second! Pie!
I like pie!
yep, Steven Jones is a member of the 911truthorg steering committee. He got his start at Brigham Young.
yes, and that paper is available on 911truth.org, everything about which can be discerned from its steering committee list.
“Oh Lesley! Excellent work!” (snicker).
Umm….yeah, that site (like others) seems to carry that *peer reviewed in a creditable publication* paper, it just isn’t one of the scientific-community sites I sent you to (BTW, *loved* your attempt to play down their backgrounds [“some Canadian” for a guy who’s been an investigative journalist for major papers probably longer than you’ve been alive, “Now retired” yeah, since 2007], nice work!).
Jumping in on the HAAM-banning discussion, may I say yes, please.
Although I see him not so much as ‘clumsy performance artist’ as ‘angry adolescent who doesn’t know how to reconcile his desperate need for attention with his lack of social skills and wants badly to connect with his Limbaugh-loving father, so he resorts to name-calling on the internet and then nasally telling his disinterested dad about it over dinner hoping against hope that this time he’ll get the praise he’s been all-but-begging for.’
We all have different versions of these imaginary internet people, I suppose.
No, whateverdude is probably serious.
I agree. But I’m pretty sure Lesley wasn’t!
Now I’m not crazy about Punky Reggae Party. It just seems awkward and contrived. But OTOH it lead to White Man in Hammersmith Palais, which I love.
Bush legacy?
Death, debt, and dishonor.
Animals can do a lot for an interior. Or I should say “to”.
Wow. Lists upon lists of BushAdmin screwups and treachery.
These are but trifles, though – and not worth Jonah’s mention.
All he’s going to see is that Dubya accomplished Job 1: HE PISSED OFF THE LIBERALS!
More than Reagan, more than Nixon. This alone is his shining legacy. It’s all Jonah needs.
And the rich got much, much richer. Who couldn’t love that?
Oh whateverdude, you’re mocking your fellow liberals. That’s not very liberal of you!
And yeah, although there can be an over-emphasis of background in science and engineering, it’s pretty well known that past performance is the best predictor we have of future and current performance.
That’s probably the biggest reason why cold fusion went as far as it did. Pons, Fleischman and Jones all had solid reputations. As did the labs and universities where they worked and the journals in which they published.
But that all turned out to be the exception which proved the rule. Sadly, mental illness played its part and the ill behavior fooled us all as it has fooled so many before us.
I just have to address the whole Ted Olsen incident. In times of major disaster, people react in different ways. Some of us try to call our family members and friends in NYC to make sure they’re o.k. Others believe they saw one of the hijackers at the airport the week before. Some throw tantrums because the disaster has disrupted their travel plans. Others search for some link to the victims (My aunt’s hairdresser’s daughter’s boyfriend was killed!). Some make up stories about phone calls from their wives.
It’s not proof of anything other than how weird we can be under stress. It’s certainly not enough to hang a huge conspiracy theory on. Not even in combination with other stuff.
Remember, extraordinary theories require extraordinary evidence. Olsen’s lies were, sadly, pretty ordinary.
Now I’m not crazy about Punky Reggae Party. It just seems awkward and contrived. But OTOH it lead to White Man in Hammersmith Palais, which I love.
I luvs enough to include the linkie.
~
F-16’s circled Bush’s fake ranch that entire month (24 fuckin’ hours a day)
Your source for that ‘fact’, dude?
A broken back happened to co-incide with the month before and after 9/11 (and then some) leaving me at the mercy of a whole lotta television. I saw brief references to it before and after 9/11 and thought WTF?? As far as I can tell, it’d never happened before nor again.
Then again, I saw (and remembered) all kinds of weird shit from that time, like Bush Sr. being at the White House that morning (while his son was in Florida?). At first the media attempted to claim that he was in the midwest, stranded by the cessation of air traffic, but little by little, the truth will out.
[…] true, as Brad of Sadly, No! sez: “…pictures speak more than a trillion-kabillion words, so I’ll let them speak for […]
Did anybody check Ted Olsen’s phone records? Did he get a call from his wife using someone else’s phone perhaps? Where’s the facts (linky would be nice) about that “lawsuit?” And so on and so forth.
whateverdude,
D’ya happen to be on painkillers for that broken back at the time, by any chance?
“some Canadian” for a guy who’s been an investigative journalist for major papers probably longer than you’ve been alive.
“In Canada, Zwicker has drawn comparisons to Michael Moore with respect to his viewpoints, and his approach to documentary making.”
whateverdude, although I tend to agree with Moore’s politics, the above isn’t exactly a compliment for an “investigative journalist.” Neither is this.
As for my age vs his, if he’s been alive longer than I have he’s in the Guiness Book of World Records and a wheelchair that doesn’t require him to be alive to man the controls.
You may find this link amusing, Peej!
For example, Nationally syndicated talk show host Charles Goyette uncovered blockbuster information in his drive-time interview with author David Ray Griffin.…
And that’s not the only funny bit!
Lesley,
You’re 100?!?!? Coolest!!!!
Can we please make sure Jonah documents one of Bush’s proudest achievements as a ‘compassionate conservative?” The life expectancy of women in 1,000 U.S. counties has dropped for the first time in 90 years–wowsa!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/21/AR2008042102406.html?hpid=topnews
er…if he’s been an investigative journalist longer than I’ve been alive I meant to say… gah…time to get off the intertubez and get some exercise.
Now White Man in Hammersmith Palais was quite a departure from White Riot but provided the commercial success that created space for my favorite Clash album, Sandinista.
Some make up stories about phone calls from their wives.
It’s not proof of anything other than how weird we can be under stress. It’s certainly not enough to hang a huge conspiracy theory on. Not even in combination with other stuff.
Geez. Rationalize much?
You’re saying that Olsen fabricating a story about his wife’s death (which, theoretically, he should’ve had ZERO info on) and giving this detailed fabrication, live, on-air, to CNN…….doesn’t prove anything? That it was “just the stress talking”?
No wonder you’ve taken the position you have. You’re fucking TERRIFIED by this stuff, aren’t you?
Well, some of us are actually capable of dealing with it and discerning when we’re being lied to and what the consequence of blindly accepting whatever a fascistic government tells you are. That doesn’t make US wackos or trolls, believe it or not.
Since 9/11/2001, there have been exactly – wait for it – ZERO terrorist attacks on American soil.
[cough] Anthrax [cough]
[cough]I’m actually coughing[cough] help [cough] Cough [cough]
As for my age vs his, if he’s been alive longer than I have he’s in the Guiness Book of World Records and a wheelchair that doesn’t require him to be alive to man the controls.
Ah……..it must be your “youthful” ‘net demeanor that makes you seem almost….child like.
A broken back happened to co-incide with the month before and after 9/11 (and then some) leaving me at the mercy of a whole lotta television.
Y’know. I think with this sentence and whateverdude’s inevitable ophiate use during that time, I’ve won the match. Plus, I’ve gotta work tomorrow.
So, good luck with you, whateverdude. You might want to google the name of whatever ophiate you were on at the time and read the side effects which will definitely include something like, ‘vivid dreams which appear real’.
I’ve had ’em myself. You just have to keep repeating to yourself over and over again, “it’s a morphine dream. It’s a morphine dream. It’s a morphine dream.” (even if you weren’t on morphine, exactly).
G’night all!
Geddy, Alex and I vote to ban Saul/HAAM/Smegma. Do it.
‘Til half and half is equalized
Oh, put down the tools
See the car
See the house
See the fabulous jewels
See the world
You have built it
With shoulders of iron
See the world
But it is not yours
Say the stealers of Zion
Fat
Wall Street
Who made them so fat?
Well, well
Me and you
Better think about that
In overdrive
‘Til humanize
Is equalize
Put down the tools
Every face
On every side
Throw down the tools
Stay at home
Don’t check with Rome
Paint a strike on the door
It’s one to one
The fight is on
So don’t go to war
We don’t want no gangboss
We want to equalize
We don’t need no gangboss
We need to equalize
Also, I am totally down with the possibility that Bush’s puppetmasters knew Bandar bin Bush’s wild’n’crazy cousin Osama had some kinda nefarious jihadi plot bouncing around, and deliberately chose not to do anything about it because whatthefvck NYC’s full of democrats anyways and ghod knows it’s not like the meee-dia wasn’t on vacation in the Hamptons until mid-September anyways. But anything more deliberate than that?
My late father spent his career working for the Port Authority, and let me tell anyone who wasn’t living in New York City when the WTC went up: Those towers were universally hated, despised, loathed. Every New Yorker from the many dozens of thriving storefront enterprises eminent-domained out of business at Robert Moses’ whim, to the dock workers who saw the Port Authority deliberately abandon any upgrading of one of the world’s most important cargo ports at a crucial point of technological innovation, to the architects and urban activists who considered the whole project a particularly cankerous example of the horrors engendered when the legislative hicks in Albany conspired with the white-shoes-and-matching-belt “developers” from New Jersey to piss on everything that made NYC a vibrant and sparkling cosmopolity, would have given some of their less important body parts if it would have guaranteed that the “Twin Middle Fingers”, aka “The Broken Fangs in the Famous Skyline” had never been finished. In fact, during the contentious and prolonged construction period, my father’s co-workers actually had a running joke about sabotage with the punchline “But where will we find a sky-diving rat?”
It took almost 30 years of Republican misrule before someone found 19 ‘sky-diving rats’ to finally accomplish the WTC demolition. If achieving that result had been as simple as sending a few dozen guys into the building with explosives, this “American icon” we’ve all been ordered to adorn with retrograde nostalgia would never have made it through the 1980s, much less the 1993 vanful-of-explosives attempt.
Whatever the reason for his grim expression, I’m still haunted by that photograph. I’m also still astonished that the Bush Volksgemeinschaft, en masse, would brook absolutely no criticism whatsoever for our “First Citizen” having sat in a classroom, nearly catatonic with indecision, during such a crisis. And I’m still bewildered that even good liberals praised him, glowingly, for his inspiring leadership immediately following the attacks. “Have they put something in the freaking water supply!?” I thought.
Now, I’ve always believed in giving credit where credit is due (even to Republicans) but c’mon? After scooting around the country for most of the day, huddling and cowering in various air force bases, he finally returned to Washington, then read from a short prepared statement! (I proceeded to step up and slap my television across the face)
As much of a sleaze-bag Giuliani is, at least he had the courage to go immediately to the site (putting himself in harm’s way)
Sorry for the rant; the whole “Legacy” thing got the bile rising again.
ophiate
I’ve hear of caliphates but “ophiate”? Doesn’t ring a bell.
I’ve won the match
I’ve always gotten a kick out of losers who make these kinds of claims. I guess you’ll just go back to accusing the regulars here of being alcoholics. That was you, right?
To whateverdude
I’m more of a neophyte here at the SadlyNaughts!™ but rather than engage in long, laborious opii, we generally come here for the “silly”. (mikey’s pronouncements being the exception; we generally listen raptly then humbly bow, being sure to keep our gaze averted from the “Glorious Presence!”
Just sayin’.
personally, I’ve always thought Steve Jones was useless after the Pistols broke up….
i’d just like to offer a good hearty screw-you to Brad for the dig against “9/11 Truthers.”
Not all people who doubt the official 9/11 story are batshit crazy. Yeah, some are. But we don’t all believe the same thing.
Some of us, like myself, don’t make any claims beyond just this: fire didn’t cause building 7 to crumble into a pile of rubble. I’ve yet to see a reasonable explaination for how a building (not hit by a jet plane) spontaneously crumbles into a pile of rubble.
I’ve always really enjoyed Washington Bullets from Sandinista.
and of course, we listen very attentively to Lesley’s pronouncements, then touch our foreheads to her robes as we depart.
Did anybody check Ted Olsen’s phone records? Did he get a call from his wife using someone else’s phone perhaps? Where’s the facts (linky would be nice) about that “lawsuit?”
Umm…..yeah. FBI.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8514
Per the FBI at Zarcarias Moussaoui’s trial
http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/docs/calls/Flight77/BarbaraOlson.jpg
Ah……..it must be your “youthful” ‘net demeanor that makes you seem almost….child like.
Though I realize you didn’t intend it as such, I will take “child-like” as a compliment.
Sadly, although I enjoy shows like Battlestar Gallactica and reruns of The X Files, I can’t bring myself to subscribe to your outlandish theory surrounding 9/11. What apparently brings you some peculiar comfort to believe seems a colossal time-waster from my point of view. What is the point in spending all your time and energy on something you will never prove and have no evidence for? It’s pure speculation.
Why not focus on those things you can prove, that have been documented, that are irrefutable? Thems all you need, dude.
and with Jennifer of course, we simply genuflect; she tends to eschew ceremony!
Interestingly, the prolonged blather about 9/11 Truth serves to highlight several “chimportant” (sorry, couldn’t resist!) and related legacies of Bush the Lesser.
(1) Facts are optional: Faith-based budgeting, faith-based emergency (non)planning, science denigrated as a means of obtaining truth. When a scientific inquiry comes up short (as NIST admitted in their investigation of the collapse of 7WTC), the scientists admit it. The faith-based crowd cannot stand uncertainty, so they invent a reason, out of little or nothing.
(2) Orwell was a piker: A logical consequence of (1) is that lies and truth share the same mental space. Both are merely means to an end, nothing more. Bush would have claimed that the moon was made of green cheese, and then cited this as ‘proof’ that we need to overthrow Saddam, if he really thought it might work. While many politicians lie, what sends this one into Worst. President. Ever. territory is that he just does not care about reality. (And, why should he? He’s been even more insulated from it than his fanboy Jonah.)
(3) Responsibility should be avoided: Anne Laurie’s excellent comment describes the careless incompetence which may have proceeded 9/11. They then tried everything to avoid responsibility for getting caught unprepared. “No one could have foreseen…” will be the ultimate tag line of this crowd.ANyone who posits that 9/11 was anything more than a terrorist attack by bin Laden’s goons needs to provide proof, to the standards NIST used. Anything less is failure, but in GW’s America, Failure = Success, so there nya nya nya!
P.S. Anne Laurie, thank you for your excellent history of that goddamned eyesore. As I explained to non-New Yorkers after 9/11, “they were big ugly buildings when they went up, they were big ugly buildings when they came down, and the only tragedy was that people were in them when they fell.”
1. To the DoodlerBeanieHaid: Thanks but I caint read it. Oh I tried, lawzy knows I tried. Alas, I can only read well formed sentences comprising actual arguments complying, with, at the least, the spirit of modus ponens.
2.
and let’s face it, where the Bush admin is concerned, there’s plenty of viable ammunition. BushCo. has singlehandely destroyed any chance the Republican Party has of winning the next election (or two…and hopefully more, if the Democrats hold up). I hope you can see that light whateverdude and maybe make your conspiracy theory a lower priority.
Kind of like, believe in God if you want, but get on with the job of living…cuz, you never know! There might just be nothing here but us. Whooooooooeee…I’m out of here. Good night all.
sorry for the unclosed tag. I blame WordPress. And gin.
NORAD was indeed conducting training exercises on the morning of September 11… but what is your source for the statements that the scenario “postulated jets ramming into buildings” and that a NORAD training exercise was being directed by a Vice President of the United States?
NORAD was indeed conducting training exercises on the morning of September 11… but what is your source for the statements that the scenario “postulated jets ramming into buildings” and that a NORAD training exercise was being directed by a Vice President of the United States?
From the Associated Press:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/agency_planned_exercise_on_sept_11_built_around_a_plane_crashing_into_a_building.htm
Man, I just knew when I saw the line about 9/11 Truthers, and then saw this relatively new thread had over 300 comments, that the Truthers had come out in force.
Allow me to share a few thoughts about conspiracy theories. In general, I find them to be the work of weak minds. Those who propagate them claim to be fearless pursuers of truth, but in reality they are deeply fearful of the truth, because the truth is a hell of a lot scarier than their silly theories. The truth is that the people in whom we put the most trust are silly and incompetent, just like us. The truth is that our systems are flawed, our designers and engineers are flawed, our leaders and politicians are flawed, our military is flawed.
But CTers don’t wanna deal with all that, so they just make up some crazy shit, then claim that they’re the brave ones. Um, no, you’re not. You’re the most cowardly of all, because you cloak yourselves in Superman’s clothing while peddling more nonsense than even the government dares.
Take your weak-minded horseshit and stuff it up your ass. If you have the courage, which of course you don’t.
Lesley said,
May 13, 2008 at 1:17
…The same people who believe BushCo. engineered 9/11 (and yet somehow couldn’t keep the outing of Valerie Plame a secret), …
They ‘couldn’t keep the outing of Valerie Plame a secret’
Can you, um, run that one by me again?
Thanks for the link. I see you weren’t referring to the NORAD training exercises, but to an aborted safety drill at the NRO, an intelligence agency involved with satellite reconnaissance.
Why do you feel this is significant? So far as I’m aware the NRO played no part in 9/11. And I don’t see any mention of Dick Cheney – why did you say he was “heading up” their drill?
Building 7 on fire with big holes in it.
http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm
Can you, um, run that one by me again?
They ‘couldn’t keep the fact of their orchestrating the outing of Valerie Plame a secret’.
Clear enough for you?
Sadly, No! keeps trying to cover it up.
But it’s so big they just can’t hide it!
Also, as far as the Olson (not Olsen) phone calls, your link is to a 9/11 conspiracy guy asserting that the calls never took place. I’ve never heard that theory before and frankly I don’t trust this guy’s judgement. Do you have any links to a more neutral source?
As one of the most liberal members of this blog, one who lost more friends and acquaintances on 9/11 than you’d believe, I’d like to point out to you truthers that when it comes to this issue you are not in my circle so no circular firing squad is possible. I’ve always wanted to see the Bush administration held responsible for the very real neglect and incompetence that led up to 9/11 but that’s a faded dream by now so I’ve pretty much given up hope. Maybe I was stupid to have such hope in the first place but you people did not help one bit. Just the opposite. Have you ever considered what a huge and convenient distraction you’ve been for the Bushies? What is this a fucking game to you?
You can ban saul but he’ll figure out a way to come back. Better to ban the people who engage with him. Ok, I don’t really mean that. I know some think it’s funny to argue with him and the other real trolls. Well, believe that if you want to but I’ll tell you this much, riding on the train with shoelimpy sucks. You see, I like to load up a thread on my blackberry before I get on the subway and it’s so disappointing to see out of, let’s say 100 comments, 10 from an obvious troll, 20 from people arguing with it and another 20 from people crying for it to be banned. What a waste of time. If you ignore them they will go away but some people just never learn.
As for Gerry Adams, no matter what you think of the IRA and his past dealings with it (which BTW included convincing them to sign on to the peace accords and to disarm) he’s an influential politician in Northern Ireland. The British goverment has come to terms with that fact and even Ian Paisley deals with him these days.
Man, I just knew when I saw the line about 9/11 Truthers, and then saw this relatively new thread had over 300 comments, that the Truthers had come out in force.
Err….dude? It’s mostly just me, my “weak-minded” self, defending my right to think whatever the fuck I wanna think, backed up with facts and stuff. Ok?
This post is too subtle for me to get my brain around it–perhaps because I don’t smoke reefer or drink heavily. What’s with the picture art? Is it meant as a display of blog graffiti for the illiterate? Perhaps influenced by the Salvadorian Army Ants? Or possibly templates for and by disaffected teenagers in their tattoo parlor clubhouses?
They ‘couldn’t keep the fact of their orchestrating the outing of Valerie Plame a secret’.
Clear enough for you?
What was wrong with your fingers the first time?
Now available with 99.99% fewer facts.
Tastes great!
Look, let’s just agree that Ralph Nader was responsible for 9/11 and call it a thread.
Regarding other business, ban Saul!
Oh my god, Brad. This is the most stunningly awesome blog posts, of any blog I’ve seen, in a really long time. Those pictures convey the message 1,000 times better than the most elegant, eloquent prose could ever do.
It must have taken you a long time to find all those absolutely perfect photos. My hat is off to you. (I actually never wear hats, but you know what I mean.)
Really. Excellent, excellent job. Give yourself a pat on the back.
God’s judgment of George W. Bush; do not pass go, do not collect $200, go directly to hell and burn in the everlasting fires for all eternity. That’s what you get for being directly responsible for the needless deaths of infants in Iraq and in the United States.
But I wanna say a personal thank you to King George, for being one of the primary architects in the destruction of the conservative revolution, which now lays in ashes at the feet of all those verminous swine who have infested my White House during this administration. Thank you Dick Cheney, thank you Karl Rove, thank you Paul Wolfowitz, thank you Don Rumsfeld etc. etc. etc.
Don’t forgot that photo of Bush reading “The Pet Goat” to the children at Emma
E. Booker Elementary School in Sarasota, Florida on 9/11/2001:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f333/GreyHawk121/Bushreadingthepetgoat.jpg
-clem
SN Regular: As one…who lost more friends and acquaintances on 9/11 than you’d believe, I’d like to point out to you truthers that …you people did not help one bit. Just the opposite. Have you ever considered what a huge and convenient distraction you’ve been for the Bushies? What is this a fucking game to you?
CT: I can think whatever the fuck I wanna think
Yes you can, but you might want to pause now and then and consider the thoughts of others, too.
Lawnguylander said,
May 13, 2008 at 6:22
I’ve always wanted to see the Bush administration held responsible for the very real neglect and incompetence that led up to 9/11 but that’s a faded dream by now so I’ve pretty much given up hope. Maybe I was stupid to have such hope in the first place but you people did not help one bit. Just the opposite. Have you ever considered what a huge and convenient distraction you’ve been for the Bushies? What is this a fucking game to you?
Myself, I think I got into it an a crooks’n’liars thread once. And I maaaybe have said something here once. That’s it, in all the years. I’m not with any ‘truther’ group, I don’t look at any yahoogroups about it. And as such I resent the broadbrush idiocy I’ve seen from a lot of commenters. There are a lot of people who think something’s funny, and no, we DON’T eat out of the hands of every goddamn self-absorbed ted kascynski-type who comes along.
Your ‘convenient distraction’ remark is so laughably fatuous it’s not even funny. Where exactly have you been for the last seven years? The media’s singleminded determination not to cover the attorney scandals, Iraqi civilian casualties, Blackwater on the streets of N.O., W’s ‘I never met Jack Abramoff/Ken Lay/etc.,’ a million other examples, when has the administration ever needed any ‘truther’ distraction to keep this country’s shit mainstream media off its heels?
And, yes, I question the official story. IMO, skepticism doesn’t come that hard. Like, show me where the fuck Flight 77 disappeared to, and I’ll get right on board, chief.
Why do you feel this is significant? So far as I’m aware the NRO played no part in 9/11. And I don’t see any mention of Dick Cheney – why did you say he was “heading up” their drill?
Cheney coordinates planning/scheduling of five independent yet overlapping military operations or FTXs (Field Training Exercises) for 9/11/2001:
1) “Vigilant Warrior,” FTX, purpose is classified
2) “Vigilant Guardian,” FTX hijacking drill requiring participation of all of NORAD
3) “Northern Vigilance,” mil-op redeploying aircraft from NY & DC area to Russian Arctic
4) “Northern Guardian,” mil-op redeploys 2/3 of a Langley AFB fighter squadron to Iraq and Iceland (yes, Iceland!)
5) “Amalgam Warrior ,” NORAD mil-op, purpose is classified
From USA Today: “NORAD officials have acknowledged that “scriptwriters” for the drills included the idea of hijacked aircraft being used as weapons.
“Threats of killing hostages or crashing were left to the scriptwriters to invoke creativity and broaden the required response,” Maj. Gen. Craig McKinley, a NORAD official, told the 9/11 commission”
There was in interesting deletion from the 9/11 Commission’s final report, which came from Norman Minetta: “During the time that the airplane was coming into the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President…the plane is 50 miles out…the plane is 30 miles out….and when it got down to the plane is 10 miles out, the young man also said to the vice president “do the orders still stand?” And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said “Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything to the contrary!?”
On June 1st, 2001, Cheney changed the rules for highjacked aircraft so that “shootdown” capability was taken away from the military and given to the Prez, the V.P and the Sec.of Def., which makes the testimony above look like a “stand down” rather than a “shoot down”.
Cheney gave himself the “heading up” of all military exercises that day:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/05/20010508.html
Do you have any links to a more neutral source?
Dude, that info was from the FBI…………not “neutral” I admit but what the hell do you want?
Oooh oooh…almost forgot that photo of Bush goofing around strumming a guitar given to him by country singer Mark Wills at Naval Base Coronado in San Diego the day after Hurricane Katrina destroyed the coasts of Louisiana & Mississippi:
http://static.flickr.com/33/39822346_1ebcca8bc7.jpg
Such a kidder, that Bush!
And, yes, I question the official story. IMO, skepticism doesn’t come that hard. Like, show me where the fuck Flight 77 disappeared to, and I’ll get right on board, chief.
Moron.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/Flight_77_wreckage_at_Pentagon.jpg/800px-Flight_77_wreckage_at_Pentagon.jpg
Where is this “broad brush idiocy” Mr. Nimble Fingers? From your post it seems you’re on board with those who don’t subscribe to whateverdude’s theory that the American government wired the twin towers for demolition and engineered the plane crashes.
Who doesn’t have questions? Who isn’t satisfied with the answers of the Bush administration? Pretty much everybody with half a brain, but that’s not what whateverdude has been steaming on about in this comment thread. But then you should be fine with that, because I’m not with any ‘truther’ group, I don’t look at any yahoogroups about it.
My email to the Esteemed Pantload :
You asked, so here ya’ go:
http://www.nlg.org/convention/2007%20Resolutions/Impeachment%20resolution.pdf
The NLG left out a few (- hundred) things , but that’s a good start . Enjoy! 🙂
– Mike
You’re pretty confused, aren’t you?
When I asked you to clarify this statement…
the fact that Dickie-boy was heading up military exercises that day that postulated jets ramming into buildings.
…you provide me with a link to an AP story that has nothing to do with military exercises or Dick Cheney, but is about a largely civilian intelligence agency (the satellite surveillance NRO) canceling a safety drill involving an imaginary plane crash on September 11. The NRO doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the response to 9/11.
When I ask you why the NRO story is significant, you respond with a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with the NRO, but refers to NORAD training exercises. I take it you’re mixing up the NRO safety drill with the NORAD exercises.
You say Cheney coordinated the NORAD exercises, but the USA Today story you cite says:
A White House spokesman said Sunday that the Bush administration was not aware of the NORAD exercises.
The White House link is about Cheney coordinating anti-terrorism activity among several federal agencies. It doesn’t say anything about him commanding NORAD training exercises – because, of course, he didn’t.
I also see that upthread you say that Osama bin Laden is actually CIA agent Tim Osman “a CIA asset who’s brother was W’s first investor and whose family co-owned the Carlyle Group with Bush Sr.” Whooo-eee. I looked that gem up. It’s from the site of master loon J. Orlin Grabbe. That’s like citing the Son of Sam.
Sorry, but I have to conclude that the butter’s done slipped off your greens. I’m hitting the sack. You look out for Tim Osman – he’s everywhere.
Where is this “broad brush idiocy” Mr. Nimble Fingers?
‘broad brush idiocy’ “from a lot of commenters.” Why’d you leave that part out? And no, I haven’t tied myself to the hip with ‘whateverdude’s’ whole list of comments. I was bitching about people like ‘lawnguylander’ being so abusive of people who happen to believe they’re keeping an open mind on the subject.
Oh, and r.b., what is that, a streamer? Show me an engine. The engines couldn’t’ve disintegrated, and they didn’t enter the building. You can feel free to tell me how an ignoramus like the alleged pilot even finds the non-coastal D.C. from six miles up, starting from 500 or more miles west, without wandering around five states. Oh, and fuck you.
Snorhagen, at least he’s not one of those “The Apollo 11 moon landing was done on a soundstage in Burbank!!!!!!!” types. Those people are genuinely crazy.
As for the Pantloads request, I’d say “Bush embarrassing this country repeatedly at international gatherings by being the idiotic, dull-witted loser he is”.
Oh, I have one: pretending to look for WMD’s under a couch at an official dinner. In a rational world, that would have meant a month of bad coverage, but instead it was “That Dubya, what a kidder“.
Oh! another one: who was Jeff Gannonguckert fucking/getting fucked by all those times he went to the White House after hours?
Oh, and r.b., what is that, a streamer? Show me an engine.
Fuck you moron. One of those engines made it to the second ring of the building. Idiot.
Why’d you leave that part out?
paranoid much? Geez, get a grip.
Ok, buddy, where is the “broad brush idiocy from a lot of commenters”?
As for the “people” being “abused”, one belligerant 911truther – who appears to have left the building – was asked a number of reasonable questions.
Obviously you’re in a rage about something. Whatever it is, it has nothing to do with SadlyNo commenters, including lawnguylander who lost friends in the twin towers.
fourmorewars: Ah. I’d like to have an argument, please.
SN Receptionist: Certainly sir. Have you been here before?
fourmorewars: No, I haven’t, this is my first time.
SN Receptionist: I see. Well, do you want to have just one argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?
fourmorewars: Well, what is the cost?
SN Receptionist: Well, It’s one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.
fourmorewars: Well, I think it would be best if I perhaps started off with just the one and then see how it goes.
SN Receptionist: Fine. Well, I’ll see who’s free at the moment.
Pause
SN Receptionist: Righteous Bubba is free but you’ll find him less conciliatory, particularly if you can’t hold your end up.
fourmorewars: I’ll take my chances
*&^**Fuck you moron. %*&%^^^Idiot. Here have some cake [links to unmentionably rude cake]
[Fourmorewars leaves in distresss, never to be seen again.]
It’s definitely time for another nanotechnology pile-on. Go with the classics, I say.
[…] Sadly, No! » Oh my The Bush Legacy, in photos. (tags: doughy+pantload bush photos legacy history katrina 9/11 economy) […]
…you provide me with a link to an AP story that has nothing to do with military exercises or Dick Cheney, but is about a largely civilian intelligence agency (the satellite surveillance NRO) canceling a safety drill involving an imaginary plane crash on September 11. The NRO doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the response to 9/11.
Nothing to do with it? Do you know what the NRO is and what they do? If you’ve been following all of this you’d know that I’ve been talking about how exercises that happen to mimic the events that were happening helped freeze the system. If you think it’s coincidence (particularly in light of the administration’s claim that it had no idea such things could happen), you’re welcome to that belief. As the article said:
“In a promotion for speaker John Fulton, a CIA officer assigned as chief of NRO’s strategic gaming division, the announcement says, “On the morning of September 11th 2001, Mr. Fulton and his team … were running a pre-planned simulation to explore the emergency response issues that would be created if a plane were to strike a building. Little did they know that the scenario would come true in a dramatic way that day.”
The fact that the article doesn’t mention Cheney is no real surprise, very few people knew what he was overseeing and no one went out of their way to talk about it after the fact. Oh, and the White House claiming it knew nothing of the NORAD exercise has got to be true, right…..after all, (heh) they didn’t know planes could be used as weapons either.
The White House link is about Cheney coordinating anti-terrorism activity among several federal agencies. It doesn’t say anything about him commanding NORAD training exercises – because, of course, he didn’t.
Bush directed Cheney to oversee the “Office of National Preparedness”, which is what the link is all about. It was a new entity responsible for the nationwide training and preparation effort “to ensure that all facets of our response to the threat from weapons of mass destruction are coordinated and cohesive.” This gave Cheney the power to coordinate and schedule training exercises among the civilian and military. Which he did.
I also see that upthread you say that Osama bin Laden is actually CIA agent Tim Osman “a CIA asset who’s brother was W’s first investor and whose family co-owned the Carlyle Group with Bush Sr.” Whooo-eee. I looked that gem up. It’s from the site of master loon J. Orlin Grabbe.
You know, you’re being pretty fucking selective with what you turn up. How is it that you end up with J. Orlin Grabbe and Google gives me 192,000 hits for “Tim Osman”? Ever read “Fortunate Son”? It tells about Tim/Osama’s older brother, Saleem, being a major investor in Bush’s first business failure, Arbusto Oil. Is the fact that Osama was a CIA asset in Afghanistan, fighting the Russians, some kind of surprise to you? Of course, you’ve *got* to know about the Bush-bin Laden connection via the Carlyle Group (funny how that raises no media comment….picture Clinton doing the same thing and it’d be a different story. Once again, IOKIYAR). The family connection started in 1976, when Bush Sr. was made head of the CIA (and was therefore influential enough to make things happen, for a price).
I can understand you avoiding the particulars of 9/11 (pretty creepy stuff there) but how have you managed to stay ignorant about the bin Laden-Bush connection? It doesn’t even strike you as odd that when the rest of the country was devoid of all air traffic after the attacks, the entire bin Laden clan that was in-country was put on three charter jets out of the country (without even allowing the FBI to question any of them)? Or how Bush has repeatedly said that catching Osama isn’t important to him?
I’d think that *some* of this shit would raise some questions in your mind…but maybe not.
Math. So simple a first grader can do it. Take a 200 thousand pound steel rod and throw it at a building at 800 miles per hour filled with 40 thousand pounds of jet fuel and AMAZINGLY enough some shit get fucked up.
Now if you were to actually do that whole math bit in comparison to the b-29 hit on the empire state building you would realize that a 757 is twice as heavy, flies twice as fast (and when the equation is m*v^2, that counts twice as much bitches!) and carries four times the fuel…. In purely kinetic terms we are already 3 orders of magnitude greater in kinetic impact(binary, but I’m a programmer), and then have 4x the jet fuel to really fuck things up. Oh, and video tape it from 5 different angles, just to be sure.
This reminds me of the white phosphor controversy during fallujah. I worked at Getty at the time and could tell you that the military was doing an amazing coverup of their “chemical weapons” usage by putting pictures of our marines running through a field illuminated by WP on the front page of the new york times. Brilliant cover up guys. They snuck that one by.
Oh, and if you need a fucking picture, here.
Oh, and you want to know what happens to a military grade plane made out of light metals and delicate craftsmanship when it runs into a concrete fucking wall?
This.
It’s like they are fucking retards who have never heard of VHS technology.
Ok, That might be true.
why, exactly, should anyone believe any document put out under the Bush administration?
remember castro’s exploding cigar? liberals all had a good laugh over the crazy conspiracy theory. turns out it’s true…
Jonah Goldberg is a useless cheetoh gobbler.
Wow, a 9/11 bitchfest.
How, er, um, interesting.
“I believe the title was ‘Bin Laden Determined To Strike In The US.'”
Nothing too suggestive about that title, huh, Condi?
Do I think Bush did 9/11?
Nigga PLEASE – Bush was lucky he was even holding “My Pet Goat” the right way UP that morning.
But Cheney?
There’s NOTHING I’d put past his sick sociopathic ass.
1st pick to head the 9/11 Commission?
Henry Kissinger, no less.
After a mere 411 days of serious stonewalling.
Not saying Bin Laden didn’t do it – but to think he could’ve done it without major help from, say, Bush’s Pappy & friends, is to equate him with Doctor Doom & Lex Luthor in the rank of evil uber-genius.
One of the weirder rationales I keep hearing is “they could never get everyone to keep mum about something that big” – but you know, I kind of think a few bags of cash, plus a few credible death-threats against one’s self or loved ones would be the only “incentives” required. But that’s just Crazy Talk, because we all know what moral paragons the Bushies are, so thank goodness, THAT would never enter the equation. The Gov’t. keeping Operation NORTHWOODS a total secret for more than 40 years has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this – so ignore it, or else you might make Baby Jesus cry!
Another interesting angle is this lovely little “Prove It or GTFO” response – as in, if you can’t scientifically PROVE the perps are guilty of a crime they successfully covered up, then that must mean they didn’t really do it, QED. Circular Logic – the perfect ammo for Circular Firing Squads!
Oh, & of course the folks who were either THERE, like say, maintenance staff & First Responders who survived – or the few relatives that weren’t too desperately poor not to take Bush’s “STFU Forever” money like the Jersey Girls – must be tinfoil-hatters too, since a bunch of them have problems with the official version. Good thing damn near everyone is ignoring them. Imagine how grateful they must be to the rest of us for that.
Pretty interesting, too, that the FBI’s been known to infiltrate groups that might present, shall we say, less than desireable output, using outlandish agent provocateurs so as to radicalize & delegitimize their message &/or image (when they shut down COINTELPRO they more or less bragged about how they’d keep right on doing it, just not with a paper-trail from now on)… good thing nothing like that ever happened to the 9/11 Truth movement, because it’s so obvious they NEVER had any credibility, right?
Yeah, 9/11 is totally irrelevant. Again, being such ethical exemplars & all, the Bushies NEVER used it to justify attacking Iraq, or attacking civil liberties, or contracting out their wars to unsavoury groups like Blackwater, or to keep Americans too scared shitless to think straight, or anything disgustingly opportunistic like that, thank goodness, nor will they resurrect it again when they want to hit their next target between now & November. So it’s just an isolated tragedy that a bunch of nutjobs keep bringing up to convince themselves that they’ve got it all figured out. Hey, it MUST be true – says so right here on the Interwebs!
PS : Jonah Goldberg was an Inside Job!
Just ask Lucianne.
Anyone commenting here ever written a bestseller like Jonah Goldberg? One perhaps, that’s been on the bestseller list for months and wildly hailed by liberals and conservatives alike?
Anyone?
That ain’t nothing. It gives me 26,300,000 hits for ‘bullshit’.
You’ve lost my interest.
[…] The Bush Legacy Illustrated The Years Of Our Lord 2001-2008 […]
You know, maybe I will need to look a bit more at this 9/11 theory stuff. I’m pretty skeptical, though.
What is this grey goo you speak of?
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It’ll be just what a legion of historians said in the recent Pew Research Poll: Bush was a colossal failure and the worst president of all time. Too bad your reputation has been tainted by supporting quite a few policies of this buffoon.
What a weird thread.
Another interesting angle is this lovely little “Prove It or GTFO” response – as in, if you can’t scientifically PROVE the perps are guilty of a crime they successfully covered up, then that must mean they didn’t really do it, QED.
Mr. Conspiracy Theorist, meet Religion.
[…] by MEC on May 13, 2008 Sadly, No sums it […]
It’s widely know that Dick Cheney had been planning this since at least 1983.
What a weird thread.
Amen, Jacob! I blame the Swamp Maples! Well, and whateverdude.
whateverdude,
For the record, I declared that I was not an alcoholic and that I make it a habit of avoiding interactions with abusive drunks. Both true statements, btw, although I do not have one published article in a credible, peer-reviewed scientific or engineering journal to prove it.
I know. How horribly non-liberal of me… again!
You’re the one who turned to abuse and attempted distraction when you failed to cite anything less lame than a Letter in an open engineering journal to support your extraordinary claims. Just so we’re clear.
Oh, and WHAT THE FUCK IS WITH YOU ?
Seriously, WTF?? Is there something in the goddamned water that has you at our throats over bullshit issues? I’ve *never* seen the “liberal” environment less liberal in my relatively long lifetime……is that passing you by too? Do you not see how this incessant hostility towards anyone who doesn’t walk in lockstep with your increasing smaller crowd is going to annoy the fuck out of us?
(heh) Chum……..we’ve just got WAY too much to do for you to be fomenting trouble in the myriad factions that constitute the pro-democracy, anti-fascist comment threads at Sadly, No!
Finally, you know what? When that Swamp Maple fell it only scraped some paint off the garden fence and knocked a bit of concrete off the stoop on the other side of the driveway. It fell perfectly positioned between the corner of the house and the corner of the driveway.
Stuff like that just doesn’t happen randomly!! Therefore, it just had to have been planned!
I vote for Bush’s neutering of the FOIA act for Presidential papers. That act continues and escalates the Great Cover-up.
Reagan/Bush papers would show “why they hate us”. The October Surprise, Iran/Contra, Contra cocaine, BCCI, illegal arms sales to both Iran and Iraq (Let God sort ’em out), the invasion of Panama, encouraging the Shi’ia to rise up only to abandon them to be slaughtered.
The Right Wing is undoubtedly thrilled that these papers might never see the light of day.
Bush will be allowed to escape without being held accountable for his crimes. On this the ruling elite, Republican and Democratic, can agree.
The ruling class, first and foremost, looks out for its own.
Just a modest suggestion: Right below the Twin Towers visual, add a video still of Bush reading My Pet Goat after being told that a second plane had struck and that “the nation was under attack.” Those creepy 11 minutes of paralyzed inaction in the midst of crisis–and his bizarre flight to the “rabbit hole” in North Dakota–are surely worth memorializing as part of the Decider’s Legacy.
Jennifer said- “In every in-depth conversation I’ve ever had with any of the Truthers, they have quickly revealed stunning ignorance about the basic laws of physics…which as we all know, don’t change to suit anyone’s political agenda. On a purely scientific level, their claims are full of FAIL. Then there’s all the logical, common-sense reasons why their theories make no sense.”
Please, enlighten me as to these common sense reasons why the theories of scientists like Prof. Steven Davis of BYU make no sense to you, an average graduate of an architectural or structural engineering program (whichever it may have been). Then please explain why, if 100 plus story buildings collapse neatly into their own footprints when struck ramdomly by airplanes, do we pay demolition companies millions of dollars to stratigically reproduce effects that are easly generated by utter chaos. And please don’t try to tell me that they didn’t, easily 90% of material collapsed straight down into the footprint, a feat that would have been mightly impressive for a trained demo company to reproduce given a week and all the explosives in the world.
Please, enlighten me
You’re stupid.
LOL, Bubba!
Also, thank Bago for the links. I just love watching stuff blow up in slo-mo when nobody’s getting hurt. And multiple viewpoints, too. Coolest!
Ahem. That shoulda been “thanks, Bago…” Amazing how the lack of one letter turns gratitude into a command.
“Just consider this: what is the likelihood that the totally incompetent fuckwads that comprise this administration, AND the hundreds if not thousands of other players that would have to be involved (from bit parts to major roles) could pull it off without ONE total screw-up, smoke-belching gun left lieing around, without ONE person who can’t keep the secret, ….”
What makes you think that person hasn’t come out? What makes you think five or ten of those people haven’t come out and then been discredited by smear campaigns? Just because you are not paying attention to them and the mainstreammedia isn’t paying attention to them doesn’t mean they are not out there.
…scientists like Prof. Steven Davis of BYU…
That’s profoundly funny! It’s actually Steve Jones and he’s no longer at BYU!
But seriously, if you can’t even get the name of the Ph.D. who supports your delusions right, what hope do you have here?
If you want to learn more about Jones, see above. Short version: his scientific cred was thoroughly trashed well before 9/11 because of cold fusion.
Incredibly, Google does turn up a Steven Davis at BYU. He’s the Assistant Director of Admissions! Weird, huh?
…
OMG!!!! It must be some sort of conspiracy!!!!!!!
Convincing argument count: zero.
Noooooo, Bubba.
Not even my “Steven Jones/Steven Davis” conspiracy argument?!?!?!?!
It’s those broad sweeping statements that get me in trouble. Add “from the ‘Truthers'” to that.
O.K., Bubba,
So you thoroughly believe Steve Jones and Steven Davis got together to knock down that Swamp Maple so it fell exactly in the right position to cause minimal damage in my rather crowded neighborhood!
Right?
Yeah I noticed that too. I was hoping to change it before anyone else did, but alas, no edit function
Doodle Bean @ 2:52 –
That’s exactly what I mean. Over the last several years, I have found myself in countless arguments over what is and is not science. Science is a process – it is the application of the scientific method to test a hypothesis, and the observation / collection of the data that stems from it. That’s it. Publication and peer review can make it accepted science, and both are critical parts of the knowledge distribution process, because unless the results are shared, then what’s the point?
But even if no one ever hears about a successful experiment, assuming the experimenter set it up properly, it’s still science. Just not particularly useful science at that point.
Spencer,
Cool. But what about Steven Jones, Steven Davis and the Swamp Maple?!?!?!?!?!!?
Jesus DB, give it a rest.
It was really clever. You’re really smart. You should rule the world. I’m totally in awe of your mad logic skillz.
I don’t claim to know whether the towers were knocked over by planes or dropped with explosives. I don’t claim to know whether Bush had a hand in this or just let it slip by. What I do know is Bush benefited way too much, Al Qaeda had far too little capability and the CIA isn’t as poor at their job as the media and the administration would like you to believe. I just can’t give our government the benefit of the doubt on this one.
Stryx ,
That’s just the problem; I can’t give it a rest. This thread has become the train wreck from which I cannot tear myself!
Righteous Bubba said,
May 12, 2008 at 21:31
Actually, 9/11 Truthers have film evidence
No they do not.
You are right. Only the Pentagon has videos and they will not share with the public. Any truthers in the Pentagon? Let’s have a looksy. What are we afraid of?
Until then, the sham is clear.
Until then, the sham is clear.
No evidence=clarity.
Why do I believe most of the 911 truthers still have very large Ron Paul signs in their basement ‘research’ rooms ?
I do have a special fondness for the “jet fuel can’t melt steel” argument.
That is the Herb Reed and the Platters of 911 comments. So flawlessly classic it only improves with age.
I do have a special fondness for the “jet fuel can’t melt steel” argument.
(sigh)…….Ok, I’ll bite. Putting aside the fact that jet fuel (a form of kerosene) burns at a much lower temperature than steel melts at (which is something of an obstacle to the “melting” concept), maybe you can explain how a steel-framed building that size, acting as a “heat sink”, (try brazing a copper pipe with water in it to get my drift here) would allow that melting to happen?
I’m all ears.
dennis said,
May 13, 2008 at 14:25
Anyone commenting here ever written a bestseller like Jonah Goldberg? One perhaps, that’s been on the bestseller list for months and wildly hailed by liberals and conservatives alike?
Anyone?
You know how I hate to brag, but…
I say we waterboard Bush and Cheney just in case it was a conspiracy, and find out what they know.
Withholding evidance = Clarity
I say we waterboard Bush and Cheney just in case it was a conspiracy, and find out what they know.
Now we’re getting somewhere.
Blood from a stone in Bush’s case.
[…] Posted by Greg on May 13, 2008 Ten thousand words at Sadly No […]
whateverdude said,
May 13, 2008 at 22:29
—
The answer is … a blacksmith …
I just had to chime in. Here’s my bottom line: conspiracies do exist. But to be a viable explanation, it has to make things simpler, not more complicated.
Nothing new is explained by nearly all 9/11 conspiracy theories. And many require far larger and more complicated rationales themselves – i.e. drone planes, planted explosives, etc. etc.
Furthermore, as per explosion details, etc – there’s nothing here for the conspiracy theories to explain. Wreckage has been found, planes and people **aren’t** missing, and the details of the explosion make sense to trained engineers.
The simplest possible explanation is right there on the surface: the complete and total incompetence of this administration. Next simplest, the possibility that the Bush administration had some awareness that something big was going on, so they let it go down for their own ends.
But really, any thoughts that Bushco planned this and executed it with full knowledge and control, doesn’t pass the smell test.
This is for at least one very simple reason:
This was an executed mission with a very specific timetable. If you were in full command of this – why would you have the President reading in front of a classroom when it happens? And have him be surprised? Why wouldn’t you have Cheney already in a bunker?
Let’s investigate Bush and Cheney for how the messed up. But we don’t need outlandish theories. The facts are right there on the surface – they at best blew it utterly, and cynically manipulated our people’s reactions to take our nation down a tragic path.
The answer is … a blacksmith …
In other words *chirp, chirp….chirp, chirp*.
If you don’t have an answer, just say so. I’m not gonna fall on you like a ton of bricks because you were wrong.
Anyone commenting here ever written a bestseller like Jonah Goldberg? One perhaps, that’s been on the bestseller list for months and wildly hailed by liberals and conservatives alike?
What liberals hailed this piece of crap? For that matter, what independents? Michael Ledeen even ripped it a new one.
Come on now. Names and URLs.
Ah, you missed Katrina bub!
Bush had too much taxpayer money contributed to unbid contract favoristims campaign contributors to mess with letting some African Americans benefti from taxpayer money – not when LA votes Dem anyway!
What national emegency?
When Saddam tried to buy yellow-cake, and Richard Clark said Bush wanted to blame 9/11 on Saddam – thus letting Bin Laden skate? Where are those pictures?
The simplest possible explanation is right there on the surface: the complete and total incompetence of this administration. Next simplest, the possibility that the Bush administration had some awareness that something big was going on, so they let it go down for their own ends.
Well, the problem with your “incompetence” theory is that it assumes that a HUGE number of things somehow “went wrong” and that the “incompetence” wasn’t just in the Bush administration but a large number of civilian and military agencies. For me, that defies belief.
As to your second theory, it’s provable in many ways that the Bushies knew something was coming and did nothing to stop it. They should’ve gone on trial for it and some of them should’ve literally hung for it. The fact that there wasn’t a peep about this intentional tearing down of our defenses to allow an attack made in our “press” or in Congress ought to say something to you about how much *truth* we were given about the event.
For what it’s worth, I maintain that Bush was kept out of the loop by those who 1)knew he was too much of an idiot to be given the info and 2)wanted him scared so he’d sign on to anything Unca Dickie wanted.
You get a link to Eschaton and then you talk about Bush’s legacy with no mention of “turkee.” Ingrates….
Well, the problem with your “incompetence” theory is that it assumes that a HUGE number of things somehow “went wrong” and that the “incompetence” wasn’t just in the Bush administration but a large number of civilian and military agencies. For me, that defies belief.
For other situations that are really quite similar, in terms of Bush failures, I cite (as previously commented above):
Katrina
The Iraq occupation
the current economy
Every single one of these disasters were not only predictable, they were warned of ahead of time extensively by experts for months if not **years**. And there was also a systemic failure of nearly every organization’s attempts to deal with or fix them – before, after and even *during*. This is because these organizations weren’t being notified, organized, prioritized or even coordinated – because the top simply wasn’t paying attention.
For a metaphor, consider the destructive power of a man driving a bus.
If that man wants to kill someone, he will probably drive the bus to his destination, get out and do it. And he’ll probably try not to get caught, or even seen. For that reason, he will keep the other damage as small as possible.
But if that bus driver is instead an incompetent, he just might veer into a crowd and kill 10, 20, 30 people or more. No one knows what can happen.
That’s the incredible destructive power of incompetence. And the destructive power of complete and total incompetence, combined with a sense of entitlement and a willingness to go any lengths to avoid accountability, while steering something as huge and powerful as the US – is *staggering*. It is *mind-blowing*. There literally is nothing like it.
So I actually understand how the “incompetence theory” can be hard to accept. I think, in a dark way, it may be more comforting to think of 9/11 as a grand plan of the Bush administration – that at least means they are *aware* and *planning*. Otherwise, if we really are the playthings of total fucking incompetent amoral nutjobs who can barely be counted on to pull their *own* asses out of the fire – we better pray hard for the rest of this administration and count our blessings that we still have a country at all.
For what it’s worth, I maintain that Bush was kept out of the loop by those who 1)knew he was too much of an idiot to be given the info and 2)wanted him scared so he’d sign on to anything Unca Dickie wanted.
OK as far as it goes – but for me, the rub there is:
1) that Bush was even sent to a school, let alone anyhere in public that there would be cameras on him
2) that Cheney was moved in a panic to a secret bunker *after* news came out.
I can’t see something like this going down as a plan without Cheney knowing – and I can’t see Cheney knowing this is going to happen, and not already being in some undisclosed location.
This is for at least one very simple reason:
This was an executed mission with a very specific timetable. If you were in full command of this – why would you have the President reading in front of a classroom when it happens? And have him be surprised? Why wouldn’t you have Cheney already in a bunker?
Those are some good questions.
I would figure the answer to the first two would be because Bush was supposed to be dead after being hit at the Colony Beach Resort.
And the second? Well, the first one didn’t quite work out so now Cheney has to ride it out. He did manage to get to the secure undisclosed quick enough. And according to me, Cheney’s the main reason Bush wasn’t allowed to fly back to D.C.
Or at least that’s one theory.
If you were in full command of this – why would you have the President reading in front of a classroom when it happens? And have him be surprised? Why wouldn’t you have Cheney already in a bunker?
That’s two good questions.
Maybe the answer is because Bush was supposed to be dead, victim of a hit at the Colony Beach Resort. That failed and Cheney had to just ride it out. He did manage to get to the secure undisclosed right quick though.
Or at least that’s one theory.
people still use AOL?? What’s he got, a dialup modem?
Every single one of these disasters were not only predictable, they were warned of ahead of time extensively by experts for months if not **years**. And there was also a systemic failure of nearly every organization’s attempts to deal with or fix them – before, after and even *during*. This is because these organizations weren’t being notified, organized, prioritized or even coordinated – because the top simply wasn’t paying attention.
Look, Iraq, Katrina and the current economy are all linked. So much money and resources (like National Guard supplies and equipment) have been wasted in Iraq that when Katrina happened, there was nothing in place to help them. We’re really talking apples and oranges here.
Most people weren’t motivated enough to read the results of the 9/11 Commission, but I plowed through it. They tried the “incompetence” gambit but it really doesn’t fly. The military had to swallow its pride and lie repeatedly to attempt to keep that story going, claiming, at one point, that NORAD couldn’t follow the planes on radar because they turned their transponders off. Well, NORAD radar is so sophisticated that they can follow an object the size of a softball, no transponder turned on. They also claimed that our radar defenses are turned *outward* to see attackers approaching our borders (when in fact, our radar is comprehensive and meant to be capable of tracking anything that had crossed our borders and was moving anywhere within them). Even the Commission was ultimately forced to acknowledge that the military had lied in its testimony, which leaves us…where?
Our defenses are multi-layered by design, to make sure that no conceivable level of incompetence could defeat it. There are too many separate agencies with their own organizations to make it realistic that a *complete* failure of our defenses could happen. The Pentagon had been alerted to the possibility of airliners crashing into buildings at least since 1995 (Operation Bojinka) and had defensive plans in place. You might imagine that one organization was incompetent on 9/11 and maybe another messed up because of misunderstanding but ALL of them? Not a chance. Things had to be carefully planned out with the massive shifting of interceptors, the coinciding of “exercises” that mimicked exactly what was going on, nationally known figures cued up to call CNN with outright lies (which they’ve never been questioned about) and so on. It didn’t take many people to do it, they just had to be at the top levels.
Still, there were glaring mistakes, because these guys ARE incompetents. For example, BBC announced that Building 7 (the one that no plane had hit) had just fallen and the reporter stood at her window talking about it as the damned thing stood there in full view for about ten minutes (before the transmission feed was “lost”) and it fell (for no known reason) about 20 minutes after it had been announced as “collapsed”. Now the anchor who reported it agrees that there may have been a conspiracy involved in the event (not something you’ll hear from American media types worried about their careers).
1) that Bush was even sent to a school, let alone anyhere in public that there would be cameras on him
2) that Cheney was moved in a panic to a secret bunker *after* news came out.
Well, Bush was well out of the way, where they wanted him. The most curious aspect of that school event was that the Secret Service let him stay there that long during what was supposedly an attack on the country, with Bush, theoretically, a prime target. Incompetence? Not from the Secret Service. It looks very much like they *knew* he was in no danger as they dumped every rule that they constantly drill for. That shit doesn’t happen. As to the “panic” move of Cheney, well that’s just one of several conflicting stories. Others there said he was down in the bunker well before he said he was. Why would they lie?
Lookee there. I’ve got better things to do than argue with whateverdude!
Thanks, Stryx!
If you were in full command of this – why would you have the President reading in front of a classroom when it happens? And have him be surprised? Why wouldn’t you have Cheney already in a bunker? (Sorry DB…)
One way to look at it would be that Bush was supposed to be dead, victim of a hit that morning at the Colony Beach Resort. When that failed, Cheney just had to ride it out. He got into the secure undisclosed right quick though and told Bush it was too dangerous to come back, and Bush had to go wander around Warren Buffet’s back yard for a while.
Lookee there. I’ve got better things to do than argue with whateverdude!
“buk buk buk……BWA!”
A least you recognize when you’re out of your depth.
A least you recognize when you’re out of your depth.
Yes, unsourced and false arguments with lots of maybes in them are real winners. You’re like a super-competent government that’s totally incompetent.
False arguments????? Whaddaya talking about? The evidence is overwhelming!!!
For example, this news article proves the widespread suspicion that Monty Python was a CIA-controlled, Shriners-infiltrated, neo-con, luddite al-Qaeda sleeper cell. And this frightening report describes in graphic detail how John Cleese inseminated Brent Scowcroft with alien nanobots. Both are confirmed by this FBI memo.
In addition, this detailed account makes it clear that the NSA is operating a vast manufacturing complex in the Libyan desert, producing thousands of x-ray mind-control goggles and death ray devices. Security is provided by the feared commando unit known as Desert Force X, directly commanded by Dick Cheney’s psychic emanations. There is solid evidence that CIA agent and former Beatles drummer Tim Osman (aka Osama bin Laden, aka Pete Best, aka Corky Schlockwurster) trained at this remote site before becoming chairman of the Trilateral Commission.
What more proof do you need?! What the fuck’s wrong with you people???
False arguments, Righteous Bubba????? Whaddaya talking about? The evidence is overwhelming!!!
For example, this news article proves the widespread suspicion that Monty Python was a CIA-controlled, Shriners-infiltrated, neo-con, luddite al-Qaeda sleeper cell. And this frightening report describes in graphic detail how John Cleese inseminated Brent Scowcroft with alien nanobots. Both are confirmed by this FBI memo.
In addition, this detailed account makes it clear that the NSA is operating a vast manufacturing complex in the Libyan desert, producing thousands of x-ray mind-control goggles and death ray devices. Security is provided by the feared commando unit known as Desert Force X, directly commanded by Dick Cheney’s psychic emanations. There is solid evidence that CIA agent and former Beatles drummer Tim Osman (aka Osama bin Laden, aka Pete Best, aka Corky Schlockwurster) trained at this remote site before becoming chairman of the Trilateral Commission.
What more proof do you need?! What the fuck’s wrong with you people???
“Our defenses are multi-layered by design, to make sure that no conceivable level of incompetence could defeat it. There are too many separate agencies with their own organizations to make it realistic that a *complete* failure of our defenses could happen. …. Not a chance.”
And the USS Cole puncture, the on-going clusterfuck in Iraq, and the ass-whupping at Pearl Harbour, Bush toppling a Segway, the defeat in VietNam, and on-and-on?
All deliberate acts designed to.. um… what, exactly? A rope-a-dope, designed to disguise the true awesomeness, omnipotence and omniscience of America’s flawless defensive capability from everyone on the planet except, apparently, you?
.
All deliberate acts designed to.. um… what, exactly? A rope-a-dope, designed to disguise the true awesomeness, omnipotence and omniscience of America’s flawless defensive capability from everyone on the planet except, apparently, you?
Uh-huh. Your list of things has *what* to do with the designs for the defenses in-country? For, whatever it’s failings, it does have the capacity to see, track and intercept commercial jets. It is, in fact, multiply redundant in that regard, which makes continued excuse of 9/11 as “incompetence”, little more than asswipery.
Yes, unsourced and false arguments with lots of maybes in them are real winners. You’re like a super-competent government that’s totally incompetent.
I really enjoy the vague generalizations of your accusations….so……compelling.
Ok, look, this is stupid, and most can see that.
But this one thing is so dishonest so as to border on criminal.
It is NOT the role of the air force nor the air national guard to defend the domestic US airspace against commercial airliners.
There is no event in history where we asked our fighter pilots to shoot down friendly airliners full of civilians. You simply CANNOT rely on the fighter interceptor squadrons as your defense against hijacked airliners to be used as weapons, especially if that had never been actually done before.
And now you want to tell this story that there would have been some efficient, straight line method to vector fighters to shoot down airliners. How many unintended, unnecessary dead would you have had? How would you ever know? How would you verify and validate the orders to shoot?
Dood, you are so fulla shit you make a christmas turkey look skinny.
Get out already…
mikey
“Uh-huh. Your list of things has *what* to do with the designs for the defenses in-country?”
Pearl….Um…. Harbour.
But, let’s not split hairs. I’m happy with your accession that US omnipotence and omniscience stops at the border.
So, accepting for the moment that those ‘in-country’ defenses are infallible, how then, were they fooled on 9/11? Are you saying that ‘incompetence’ cannot bring the system down, but deliberate insider action can?
Why go to all the trouble of having a perfect defensive system, and never think to defend it from someone arranging unfeasibly complex mechanisms to kill 7000 of their fellow citizens (and counting)?
And why, even after the fact, has no trace whatsoever been located of this plot (it was a plot right – not someone acting alone?), except in the minds of a handful of plucky internet theorists?
Did you know that some folks believe that no plane crashed into the Pentagon? That the plane-load of citizens was in fact flown to Area 51, and all those men, women children, and aircrew were summarily executed in cold blood by other US citizens, and they and the airplane were destroyed without trace?
.
.
[…] as usual, Sadly, No! was there to oblige another of his all too common […]
It is NOT the role of the air force nor the air national guard to defend the domestic US airspace against commercial airliners.
Holy shit. Mikey, you might want to back the fuck out of here.
There is no event in history where we asked our fighter pilots to shoot down friendly airliners full of civilians. You simply CANNOT rely on the fighter interceptor squadrons as your defense against hijacked airliners to be used as weapons, especially if that had never been actually done before.
You know, a few of your buddies here on the “Truthers are pychos” side are shuffling uncomfortably over you making such a …….dumb…….assertion. NORAD and the FAA have been working in partnership on this issue for decades and until Cheney altered things in June of 2001 (making so that the military had to get “shootdown” approval from the prez, the VP or the Sec of Def), the military had authorization to shoot down any aircraft that veered from it’s flightplan for longer than ten minutes and refused to follow interceptors back to land. Remember the golf star Payne Stewart? His jet went off course and within minutes, interceptors were next to the plane, trying to rouse the pilot (who was dead). This isn’t something unusual, they average about 200 interceptions per year (even before 9/11). The plan to shoot down highjacked passenger jets has been online since at least 1995, when Operation Bojinka was exposed (which was said to have a plan to crash a commercial jet into CIA headquarters).
So. Who’s making the xmas bird look skinny again?
Pearl….Um…. Harbour.
Great example. Nothing’s changed since the ’40’s, has it?
So, accepting for the moment that those ‘in-country’ defenses are infallible, how then, were they fooled on 9/11? Are you saying that ‘incompetence’ cannot bring the system down, but deliberate insider action can?
It sure as fuck can. If you run up to the guy heading NORAD that day and tell him that four bogies are highjacked and he says “That’s an exercise, you scum-sucking maggot! Didn’t you read the desk plan for today’s operation??”, you pretty much slink away and hope that he doesn’t remember who you are. As I pointed out earlier, there were exercises planned for that day that sounded EXACTLY like what happened, and that was no coincidence.
Why go to all the trouble of having a perfect defensive system, and never think to defend it from someone arranging unfeasibly complex mechanisms to kill 7000 of their fellow citizens (and counting)?
Ah, but it was nowhere near to “unfeasibly complex”, it simply involved top people demanding certain things happen, under the rubric of “exercises (which, by the way, are on the record, not just for the eyes of plucky internet theorists).
Did you know that some folks believe that no plane crashed into the Pentagon?
I’ve heard that and don’t share the notion (though I find the FBI’s refusal to release the many videos from the site).
Hey, BigEars,
A. Without knowing what the airflow across the fuel was, you can’t know what temperatures were reached in those buildings. Certainly they were higher than if you filled a can with the stuff and lit it in your back yard. Fact is, you could use Jet-A to fuel a steel refinery if you so chose–ever heard of coal?
II. Steel weakens (loses strength) at far lower temperatures than are required to melt it, and I don’t recall anybody reporting finding puddles of molten steel in at Ground Zero in any case.
c. The structures were severely weakened by the many supports severed in the collisions themselves, rendering the buildings unstable prior to the subsequent fires.
Comprende? I didn’t think so. But do keep being you, drift or no. I’d say “back to school” but that would presume prior familiarity.
(sigh)…….Ok, I’ll bite. Putting aside the fact that jet fuel (a form of kerosene) burns at a much lower temperature than steel melts at (which is something of an obstacle to the “melting” concept), maybe you can explain how a steel-framed building that size, acting as a “heat sink”, (try brazing a copper pipe with water in it to get my drift here) would allow that melting to happen?
I’m all ears.
Well, NORAD radar is so sophisticated that they can follow an object the size of a softball, no transponder turned on.
NORAD can claim that – but if all their gear is pointed away from the US and looking for missiles, they won’t be tracking passenger jets.
I recall in 1994, some guy crashed a propeller plane onto the White House lawn. That was supposed to be impossible, too.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1159300.stm
Look, I just don’t see a conspiracy of that scale. I don’t see any evidence for it, and all the evidence I do see is perfectly explained by incompetence and/or wilful ignorance beforehand, and CYA/cynical opportunism after.
I propose we agree to disagree, and concentrate on getting at the truth via the record, and more importantly getting these fucks out of office and do our best to insure none of this fuckery ever happens again.
Look, Iraq, Katrina and the current economy are all linked. So much money and resources (like National Guard supplies and equipment) have been wasted in Iraq that when Katrina happened, there was nothing in place to help them. We’re really talking apples and oranges here.
I disagree. Here’s why:
Katrina –
Before:
Extensive warnings from experts, including the Army Corp of Engineers, and dating back years, that the levees were in danger and couldn’t handle a serious hurricane. Warnings increasing. More warnings that very weekend.
Bush admin actions: ignore warnings. FEMA knows ahead of time, but just has no preparedness because they don’t give a crap. President goes on vacation, flies around on photo ops. No one’s even in the freaking white house to get Gov. Blanco’s request for Nat’l guard troops. The troops are there and can help – they’re just never deployed. The President is only finally forced into action after his staff *BURNS A DVD* of the news coverage and plays it for him.
After:
It’s blamed on Nagin and Blanco, and the poor people who couldn’t afford to drive out in SUV’s. And the reconstruction is possibly used as an opportunity to disperse the poor Democratic-voting populace and thus reduce a Democratic stronghold.
Economy:
Numerous economic experts warn that Bush’s policies will lead to disaster. One after the other. It’s not just the added expense of the war, it’s cutting taxes *and* paying for the war *and* not investing in infrastructure *and* not regulating Wall Street’s investment in subprime mortgages, etc. etc.
After:
It’s Clinton’s fault, or it’s the economies fault, or it’s the fault of _ ( name here) _ – but what we really have to do is just keep buying.
See what I’m saying? That’s the pattern.
The Bush administration has 2 basic mode: executing plans (turning lemonade into piss), and then spinning the results (selling that piss as lemonade). Unfortunately most of America didn’t catch on until Katrina made it too ugly to ignore.
9/11 was the Bush admin in mode 1; the propaganda push to invade Iraq was mode 2. The occupation of Iraq was mode 1; the shifting goalposts and “Iraqi Democracy” arguments are mode 2. The huge budget deficit is mode 1; the complete denial that there is any problem with there being a huge deficit is mode 2.
it just fits, in my opinion. I guess we disagree here.
A. Without knowing what the airflow across the fuel was, you can’t know what temperatures were reached in those buildings. Certainly they were higher than if you filled a can with the stuff and lit it in your back yard. Fact is, you could use Jet-A to fuel a steel refinery if you so chose–ever heard of coal?
To fuel a steel refinery? Man, you’re talking about constructing an injection process that has precious little resemblance to a building. There’s also the problem of that big ball of fire when the jets hit the buildings, which was the oxidation of about 80% of the fuel on the outside of the building. Add to that the massive heat sink of the steel frame and those colossal concrete cores and your little theory is pissing in the wind.
II. Steel weakens (loses strength) at far lower temperatures than are required to melt it, and I don’t recall anybody reporting finding puddles of molten steel in at Ground Zero in any case.
There was so much melted steel under the rubble (for weeks after) that the only reasonable conclusion is that substantial quantities of a thermite-like compound was used. To get evidence like that using your theory, the beams would’ve needed to melt like wax. Take a look at the following (very sad) photo and tell me about the intense heat there: http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/january2005/170105woman.jpg
The structures were severely weakened by the many supports severed in the collisions themselves, rendering the buildings unstable prior to the subsequent fires.
Perhaps you havent seen the photos of the buildings, post crash, that show just how small and limited the impact holes were? Perhaps you aren’t aware of the comprehensive studies that were done before the building plans were approved?
From the white paper on it: “The buildings have been investigated and found to be safe in an assumed collision with a large jet airliner (Boeing 707-DC 8) traveling at 600 miles per hour. Analysis indicates that such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building and would not endanger the lives and safety of occupants not in the immediate area of impact.”
Further study yielded this: “The Vierendeel trusses would be so effective, according to the engineers’ calculations, that all the columns on one side of a tower could be cut, as well as the two corners and several columns on the adjacent sides, and the tower would still be strong enough to withstand a 100-mile-per-hour wind.”
And this: “BECAUSE OF ITS CONFIGURATION, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY THAT OF A STEEL BEAM 209′ DEEP, THE TOWERS ARE ACTUALLY FAR LESS DARING STRUCTURALLY THAN A CONVENTIONAL BUILDING SUCH AS THE EMPIRE STATE BUILDING WHERE THE SPINE OR BRACED AREA OF THE BUILDING IS FAR SMALLER IN RELATION TO ITS HEIGHT”
And this: ” THE BUILDING AS DESIGNED IS SIXTEEN TIMES STIFFER THAN A CONVENTIONAL STRUCTURE. THE DESIGN CONCEPT IS SO SOUND THAT THE STRUCTURAL ENGINEER HAS BEEN ABLE TO BE ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE IN HIS DESIGN WITHOUT ADVERSELY AFFECTING THE ECONOMICS OF THE STRUCTURE. …”
Now what was that about the buildings being unstable?
Maybe I should return the “back to school” favor?
NORAD can claim that – but if all their gear is pointed away from the US and looking for missiles, they won’t be tracking passenger jets.
Please, if you’re going to participate, at least skim the thread. NORAD monitors everything WITHIN the US and has for many decades (thus, the 200 interceptors it sends up every year to challenge off-course aircraft).
Look, I just don’t see a conspiracy of that scale. I don’t see any evidence for it, and all the evidence I do see is perfectly explained by incompetence and/or wilful ignorance beforehand, and CYA/cynical opportunism after.
Look, you’re welcome to your opinion (what you believe is of no concern to me). My only object here from the get-go is to point out that it’s bullshit for liberal sites to pop up with this out-of-the-blue animosity towards those of us who doubt some or all of the “official story” about 9/11. Simply suggesting this has led to a long chain of insults thrown at me (which don’t actually phase me) and started this entire “oh yeah, well what about ………..(fill in the blanks) from a crowd of knuckleheads that haven’t bothered to look into *any* of this shit.
Whatever.
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Simply suggesting this has led to a long chain of insults thrown at me (which don’t actually phase me) and started this entire “oh yeah, well what about ………..(fill in the blanks) from a crowd of knuckleheads that haven’t bothered to look into *any* of this shit.
OK, well, allow me to suggest that at least some of this animosity may come from people actually looking into it, coming to a *different* conclusion than you have….and then resent being told they’re a “crowd of knuckleheads that haven’t bothered to look into any of this shit”.
You know?
What you think happened is your opinion. It’s not holy writ.
And my full meaning is, whether or not other people “start it” by being insulting – being insulting back and matching their tone doesn’t resolve an argument. It just makes people dig in deeper.
NORAD monitors everything WITHIN the US and has for many decades (thus, the 200 interceptors it sends up every year to challenge off-course aircraft).
Sure, NORAD’s been *trying* to monitor everything for decades. But if NORAD were able to do it *successfully* and as well as they claimed – being able to track a softball et al – then there’s no way someone would have been able to crash land on the White House lawn. Or land a helicopter on it. Or etc. etc. that’s historical record.
From the white paper on it: “The buildings have been investigated and found to be safe in an assumed collision with a large jet airliner (Boeing 707-DC 8) traveling at 600 miles per hour.
1) A 747 is two and a half times the size of a 707. Magnify that size and mass by 600 mph, and I have no idea how the equation multiplies – but I expect the total impact force is, at least 10 times. That figures pulled out of my ass – feel free to do an impact equation and get the accurate figure. Something about distance over time times mass, with a square in it somewhere.
2) I doubt the white paper you mentioned took into account the possibility that the airliner was full of jet fuel, and that the jet fuel would keep burning for hours until it could soften the steel.
(which don’t actually phase me)
“Faze me”.
it’s bullshit for liberal sites to pop up with this out-of-the-blue animosity towards those of us who doubt some or all of the “official story” about 9/11.
No it isn’t, just as it isn’t bullshit to make fun of fundamentalists.
The bottom line is that belief based on crap – which you’ll notice doesn’t work so well in politics – is worth making fun of.
1) A 747 is two and a half times the size of a 707. Magnify that size and mass by 600 mph, and I have no idea how the equation multiplies – but I expect the total impact force is, at least 10 times. That figures pulled out of my ass – feel free to do an impact equation and get the accurate figure. Something about distance over time times mass, with a square in it somewhere.
(Jesus Christ……………). You know, you get all righteous about how you’ve studied this event and then you come along with something like this? Where did you get this wild-assed notion that 747’s crashed into those buildings? They were hit by 767’s (max take-off weight, 395,000 lbs). 707’s have max take-off weights of between 257,000 and 333,600 lbs, depending on the variant, so as you can see, not a whole lotta difference from the original specs (particularly since both planes were carrying small loads for their capacity).
2) I doubt the white paper you mentioned took into account the possibility that the airliner was full of jet fuel, and that the jet fuel would keep burning for hours until it could soften the steel.
You know, your entire theory of that day is based on the hope that *everyone* involved, from top to bottom, was a complete, hopeless, irredeemable incompetent. You’ve just extended that to a team of hundreds of the world’s top engineers, architects, city planners, building inspectors, fire safety officials and I dare say, airline manufacturers. Imagining that no one in this entire group managed to consider the fuel involved exposes just how threadbare the camouflage you’ve created to cover the real events is. Oh, and you might want to be careful about tossing around that “hours of fire” nonsense, Building 2 dropped into it’s own footprint just 56 minutes after being hit. Most of the photo evidence shows both buildings with a lot of smoke and very little fire (backing up the assertions of the firemen on the scene) and the photo I linked to a couple of posts back was taken from a video of a woman standing in the entry hole, waving a scarf in the hope of getting help……hardly the scene of a raging inferno.
Sure, NORAD’s been *trying* to monitor everything for decades. But if NORAD were able to do it *successfully* and as well as they claimed – being able to track a softball et al – then there’s no way someone would have been able to crash land on the White House lawn. Or land a helicopter on it. Or etc. etc. that’s historical record.
WTF?? Dude, (sigh)…..this is just sad! Can you really *not* see the games you’re playing with yourself, in an attempt to explain this all away? Putting aside the fact National (I’ll never call it “Reagan”) is less than a hop, skip and a jump away from the White House (and therefore just out of the “ten minute response average” for interceptors), you’re talking about a 2 person plane that flew about 50 feet off of the ground as opposed to four large commerical airliners at altitude. Are you actually trying to claim that there’s no difference between the two?
You’re going to have to try a lot harder than this.
You know, your entire theory of that day is based on the hope that *everyone* involved, from top to bottom, was a complete, hopeless, irredeemable incompetent.
Well, no. Yours appears to be based on the idea that the cabal’s scenario for destroying the WTC required planes, yet the planes were not sufficient.
Occam’s razor is not an infallible tool but it disposes of the ridiculous quite nicely.
OK, well, allow me to suggest that at least some of this animosity may come from people actually looking into it, coming to a *different* conclusion than you have….and then resent being told they’re a “crowd of knuckleheads that haven’t bothered to look into any of this shit”.
Yeah, well………..given the bizarre, instantaneous, intense hostility that erupts on a site like this if one happens to suggest that they don’t believe the official dogma of 9/11 (and I mean, to *any* degree), it’s somewhat difficult to remain civil. This is particularly true when one is attacked with one erroneous factoid after another (roll back through this to get an idea of what I’m saying), from people who swear that they’re knowledgeable about what happened.
ALL OF THIS is surreal, in light of the behavior of this administration. When it was discovered that they were tapping everyone’s phone, computer, etc, they said “9/11” as though that should excuse it. Now we find that they’d been doing it since the earliest days of the administration. There were 935 lies used to push us into war with Iraq (and those are just the documented ones) and the Justice Department has been turned on it’s head and used to support partisan crime after partisan crime in solidifying the coup that we live under. The amount of law breaking by these assholes has been so epic that there is no recounting of it, it’s simply too vast. Yet, in the midst of this, we have liberals clinging (more like hanging by their fingernails) to the notion that Dick Cheney is too honorable to kill 3000 of his fellow citizens. The fact that Cheney and company started a war that they knew would have thousands of casualties (so far 4000 American soldiers, who knows how many American “contractors and a million innocent Iraqis) doesn’t seem to register.
What the fuck is wrong with you people? These guys loaded planes with 363 fucking TONS of $100.00 bills that nobody can account for and what? …..You can’t imagine a motive for our own government attacking us? 9/11 was followed by the Democrats-only anthrax attacks ( the Bush administration had starting taking Cipro in advance of it, just a coincidence, right?) which attempted to (again) blame Muslims (who just happen to sit on huge oil reserves *cough* Halliburton *cough* and the anthrax was shown to come from an American military lab but OUR GOVERNMENT WOULD NEVER ATTACK US, right? Forget the fact that most of PNAC and their open longing for a “new Pearl Harbor” ended up in key administration positions, forget about military plans like “Operation Northwoods”, forget it, forget it all…..because if you realize that that shit is REAL, then you’ve got to come to grips with the nightmare of our nation being occupied and controlled by a powerful enemy force.
Scary fucking shit. Deal with it.
they don’t believe the official dogma of 9/11 (and I mean, to *any* degree)
What you mean is “to a stupid degree”. I think everyone’s interested in a full accounting of what exactly happened and how. But upthread some moron didn’t know where flight 77 ended up. That’s beyond the pale of “gee, shouldn’t we ask a question about this?”
Well, no. Yours appears to be based on the idea that the cabal’s scenario for destroying the WTC required planes, yet the planes were not sufficient.
Thanks for attempting to frame my arguments in a way twisted to please you (what a charming little bit of sophistry). It’s pretty obvious that the intentional psyops of 9/11 needed to have a gigantic and ultra-powerful image to stun and frighten Americans with and once they were frozen in front of their televisions, they replayed those images over and over again (until we all had hundreds of exposures). You probably don’t find it curious that every major network had camera crews at the tops of high buildings surrounding the trade towers within three minutes of the first attack (including ABC in a helicopter), but I do.
It was hugely important to get live, dramatic video of really cinematic explosions to sledgehammer fear and hatred into innocent viewers and they did grotesquely terrific job of it. Unfortunately, the gaudiness of the explosions oxidized most of the kerosene, leaving only copier paper and office chairs smoldering (rather than the raging fire they’d hoped for). When things started looking like even the smoke was stopping in Building 2, they were forced to “drop it” just 56 minutes after it was hit.
The plane strikes were supposed to be the rationale behind the free-fall speed, in-their-own-footprint collapses and clearly, a lot of you bought it. Hell, you don’t even acknowledge that the guy who owned the towers confessed that they “pulled” Building 7, even though that confession is on video for one and all to see (being such a student of all this, you’ve seen it, right?).
Anyway, you’re welcome to keep denying all of this (nice aversion complex ya got there) or not, either way, it doesn’t phase me.
It’s pretty obvious that the intentional psyops of 9/11
As I said, this is the stupid degree of dissent.
What you mean is “to a stupid degree”.
No, I mean to *any* degree, as it can be as minimal as “Geez, I wouldn’t put it past Cheney” or “They sure didn’t do anything in spite of all the warnings”.
I think everyone’s interested in a full accounting of what exactly happened and how.
Bullshit. The overall tone of the crowd here has been “we don’t want to hear it”. I’ve shown a whole chain of posters here just how wrong their misunderstandings and misperceptions were and I doubt that a single one of them took that correction and said to themselves “Hmmm……..maybe I was wrong about this”. Without wanting to get all Jack-Nicholson about it, you (and most people here) can’t handle the truth. I’m not a psychologist so I can’t point to whatever mechanism is keeping you from actually absorbing this (admittedly) horrible truth, but it’s being repelled by you like water off of a duck’s back.
But upthread some moron didn’t know where flight 77 ended up. That’s beyond the pale of “gee, shouldn’t we ask a question about this
I’ve stated my own impression of Flight 77, but I can understand why someone would question it. The radar track of the plane shows that it would’ve required the top, “top gun” pilot to fly it (certainly not a guy who couldn’t qualify to fly a cessna), the FBI confiscated dozens of video tapes that would’ve showed the plane (so why won’t they release them to clear things up?). If you look at the facade of the building, shot just after the attack and before the fire, the tiny hole in the wall makes no sense. If you know how aircraft are constructed, you know that the body is quite fragile. The only bits that are really sturdy are the engines, which leaves an odd question: why weren’t there 4 holes where the engines perforated the building, rather than 1 where the fuselage supposedly hit? One can see why an intelligent mind would question the evidence.
No, I mean to *any* degree, as it can be as minimal as “Geez, I wouldn’t put it past Cheney” or “They sure didn’t do anything in spite of all the warnings”.
On that last one I believe you have not paid any attention whatsoever to, you know, news. In any media.
It’s pretty obvious that the intentional psyops of 9/11
As I said, this is the stupid degree of dissent.
Getting pretty “kneejerk” about this, aren’t you. Are you claiming it wasn’t “intentional psyops”? Then according to your own theory, just what the fuck was “Osama” doing?
Get a grip.
media.
Medium.
On that last one I believe you have not paid any attention whatsoever to, you know, news. In any media.
*I* haven’t paid any attention to it? I’m sorry, were there massive, televised Congressional hearings investigating which Bushies should be hung for treason? I honestly don’t recall that. Wow. You’ve got me over a barrel.
Are you claiming it wasn’t “intentional psyops”?
Context, dumdum, context. Later on in the paragraph you mention networks like they were a part of the conspiracy, making the psyops an American construction. Which is of course wholly unproven.
*I* haven’t paid any attention to it?
Obviously not. Feel free to Google for 9/11 warnings and note that reputable news organizations have been dealing with “They sure didn’t do anything in spite of all the warnings” for years now.
That is somewhat different from “I’m sorry, were there massive, televised Congressional hearings investigating which Bushies should be hung for treason?” which assumes the scenario beloved by knobs such as yourself.
Later on in the paragraph you mention networks like they were a part of the conspiracy
Whether actively participating or simply being led along, they were a MAJOR component of the conspiracy. You can rationalize the situation into Gordian knots if you want to but when you’re dealing with examples like the BBC announcing that Building 7 had collapsed (when the fucking thing stood in full view of the reporter) 20 minutes before it happened (and the anchor now acknowledges the possibility of conspiracy), then you’re knotting just for the perverse pleasure of it.
You’re welcome to that…….just don’t expect me to meekly accept hostility directed towards me because of your own internal failings.
Whether actively participating or simply being led along
Look guy, this is just loon talk, textbook nut language. It’s like having the witnesses knock on your door: you know what they’re going to say and how they’ll say it.
Put the bong down, read things that are reasonably sourced, and you’ll be better off, although no less depressed.
just don’t expect me to meekly accept hostility
You’re meekly accepting it, fuckbag. You’re still here.
Obviously not. Feel free to Google for 9/11 warnings and note that reputable news organizations have been dealing with “They sure didn’t do anything in spite of all the warnings” for years now.
Err….dude? Did you misunderstand something I said back there? Because I was saying that even people who drop statements as mild as “They sure didn’t do anything in spite of all the warnings” get hosed on “liberal” sites as being the same as people who claim that the jets were just holograms.
Still, what we’re talking about isn’t just some dickheads who forgot to do something about warnings they’d gotten, there’s plently of proof that the bushies were (at the very least) criminally neglegent when the Prez was hiding at his jet-protected “ranch” for an entire month (after getting word of an impending attack) whilst doing *nothing* to protect anyone else. Where have the hearings about that been? Because to any sane mind, that was the equivalent of saying “New Pearl Harbor, here we go!! Yipppeee!!”.
Err….dude? Did you misunderstand something I said back there?
No.
Look guy, this is just loon talk, textbook nut language
Hey, what a masterful argument! If you can’t actually counter any facts, just imply that I’m unbalanced……look dude, just go ahead and crumble ( I’ll avert my eyes, ok?).
You’re meekly accepting it, fuckbag. You’re still here.
Yeah, my *meekness* is on full display, isn’t it, dickwad?
So………………is this it? This is *all you’ve got*? That’s gotta hurt!
If you can’t actually counter any facts
You’re worth what time you’re worth. Accept it.
You’re worth what time you’re worth. Accept it.
Well chum, you seem to be spending a weird amount of time on this and…….nobody else is around. So you’re…what….flirting with me? Look, thanks kindly for the attention and all but you might want to look elsewhere for that kinda thing, its not my style (not that there’s anything wrong with it, mind you).
Well chum, you seem to be spending a weird amount of time on this
It does indeed amuse me to make you type paragraph after paragraph of bullshit. This is my weakness.
It does indeed amuse me to make you type paragraph after paragraph of bullshit. This is my weakness.
I’m pretty sure that playing “pattycake’ is your weakness. All the same, I’m sure there’s some subject that you actually know things about and will kick my ass with sometime in the future. Don’t be so down pal, things even up eventually.
No way does that kid fit in that car.
Look, whatever fella.
Here’s the thing. You seem to feel you are the expert and not, well, the experts.
Now I may have missed it if you already did, but just to be safe, why don’t you tell us where you got your degree in structural engineering, your 10,000 hours in multi engine jets, your career in intelligence gathering and you advanced degree in physics.
‘Cause I notice you want to be the final arbiter of who’s right and who’s wrong. You seem to be willing to take the position you KNOW what the final answer is, who has standing in the discussion and who is unqualified to offer their opinion.
So, because I have no expertise in these fields, I just need you to establish that you have, well, at least a little more than me.
**NOTE** I’m a certified sailplane pilot, with almost 700 hours. So the bar is a TINY bit higher than just laying on the floor…
mikey
Don’t be so down pal, things even up eventually.
Ooo, not in terms of word count, that’s for sure. One of the keys to figuring out whether or not someone’s an internet raver is whether or not they, y’know, rave.
You seem to feel you are the expert and not, well, the experts.
That’s correct. I’m not a sufferer of a multiple personality disorder.
Now I may have missed it if you already did, but just to be safe, why don’t you tell us where you got your degree in structural engineering, your 10,000 hours in multi engine jets, your career in intelligence gathering and you advanced degree in physics.
Wow, we need to have advanced degrees to be well read now? Fuck it all! When did that shit go down?
‘Cause I notice you want to be the final arbiter of who’s right and who’s wrong. You seem to be willing to take the position you KNOW what the final answer is, who has standing in the discussion and who is unqualified to offer their opinion.
Bullshit. If you bother to read back through this thread you’ll find that I repeatedly said that everyone is welcome to believe *whatever* the fuck they want to believe about 9/11. My sole purpose in speaking up in the first place was in response to Brad’s totally gratuitous slashing of any and all “Truthers” for what we believe. That objection initiated an entire chain of ill-informed (and intentionally highly-insulting) challenges to my beliefs about random aspects of 9/11, including yours.
So, because I have no expertise in these fields, I just need you to establish that you have, well, at least a little more than me.
Shit…….what a pathetic approach to life. You need to see some piece of paper attesting to my “expertise” before you can listen to anything I might present to you? That’s mighty fucking selective Mikey and I don’t see you demanding these weird qualifiers from anyone else, curious thing, that.
Your inexplicable “truther” prejudices aside, you clearly haven’t been bothering to read a thing I’ve written here as it’s been loaded with info from the very “experts” that you claim to need to hear from. If you’re just out to bust my balls, be honest about it like your lame pal “righteous” and we’ll take it from there….but if you have any sincerity about this issue, dial back to where this all started and skim it again. It’s depressing enough to see someone with your street smarts on so many issues hooked like an exhausted marlin by bushie propaganda but to see you obstinately refuse to have obvious flaws in the story pointed out to you *over certification of education* is downright disheartening.
**NOTE** I’m a certified sailplane pilot, with almost 700 hours. So the bar is a TINY bit higher than just laying on the floor…
Ok, I give up, this is….what…..a zen koan? Explain what you’re saying here and I’ll be glad to………….respond.
(sheesh).
Mikey’s just saying that since you say stupid things you might be an ignoramus. Fair, no?
Ooo, not in terms of word count, that’s for sure. One of the keys to figuring out whether or not someone’s an internet raver is whether or not they, y’know, rave.
I guess. That and whether they have any information to transmit. You cats are funnier than you seem to grasp, what with the demanding of evidence and the scrambling to find a way to insult it when you get it.
That’s a beautifully dickish thing ya got goin’ there.
Mikey’s just saying that since you say stupid things you might be an ignoramus. Fair, no?
Dude, that would be WAY fair….. if there was an inkling of truth to it. Then again, if what I’ve said was in any way “stupid”, you’d have no problem pointing it out. Fair, no?
When’s that gonna happen? (chirp, chirp………………chirp, chirp).
Geez, it’s peaceful out here.
Ok, I give up, this is….what…..a zen koan? Explain what you’re saying here and I’ll be glad to………….respond.
(sheesh).
I’m not gonna go look for it, it’s all part and parcel of the stupid, but at some point you described the flight of one of the hijacked airliners as tracked on radar (once again, without a link to any, um, what’s that shit called again, oh yeah, DATA) as requiring (and I’m defininately paraphrasing here, so correct me if I have part of it wrong) a “Top Gun level pilot to execute”.
So if you’ve reached that conclusion, isn’t it a reasonable question to ask:
“Dood. You ever flown any kind of aircraft? You ever been at the controls? Do you have ANY knowledge or experience that would lead you to arrive at that conclusion?”
That’s the point.
So. Do ya?
mikey
When’s that gonna happen?
Upthread about 100 times.
None of which, by the way, supports in any way your position that it is YOU and only YOU that gets to decide who is right and who is wrong and who is crazy.
I still think you need to designate to yourself some kind of expertise that gives you the standing to say that “these guys are full of shit, or afraid of retaliation, or trying to get ahead” and “these guys have are brave, courageous and true and know the answers and you grease-stains just won’t listen to them”…
mikey
(Jesus Christ……………). You know, you get all righteous about how you’ve studied this event and then you come along with something like this? Where did you get this wild-assed notion that 747’s crashed into those buildings? They were hit by 767’s
I probably got that notion ’cause at this point I really don’t care.
The planes hit, the buildings went down, then the Bush Administration raped our country. You’re talking about speculative white papers that talk about the theoretical impact of planes that are, in fact, smaller than the planes that hit. By about 50,000 pounds, in your estimation – because they were definitely at their max, they were full of fuel. Again, times acceleration.
Furthermore, does the white paper mention the effect of the burning fire softening the steel support? If so, please cite it. Otherwise, the white paper is not covering these circumstances.
Essentially, you have supposition, and all the arguments for the mainstream opinion have solid evidence. And, worst in my view, your theory would require that the Bush Administration be able, effective planners and forethoughtful – which is something that they have never shown in ***any other endeavor**** – not even when it would be in their own best interest.
Why would they possibly be able to plan something that successful, and then so utterly hose the Iraq occupation?
But, you believe what you want to believe.
this is the email i sent to the offices of the jonah goldberg research labs and places for science things and finding out stuff with facts, inc., ltd., tm.:
“Hi Jonah,
I understand that you are soliciting readers’ thoughts on the Bush legacy. Quite simply, I think he will be remembered as the worst president in American history. His willful ignorance, his utter disregard for the Constitution and the rule of law, and his pathological lack of empathy will make him stand out, even among the cruelty of Andrew Jackson, the mendacity of Richard Nixon, and the sociopathic policies of Ronald Reagan. Historians and casual observers alike will note with surprise the precipitous decline in quality of life for average Americans that took place during the eight years of Bush’s presidency.
And you will also be remembered. Perhaps not always by name, but as part of the ideologically-driven media machine that attempted to explain, excuse, and justify his behavior. You, and many others, have enabled his gutting of basic civil rights in America, his destruction of the American economy, his disasterous wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the depression into which America, the world’s newest pariah, now slumps.
Good luck with your interview.
-Sarah”
… at some point you described the flight of one of the hijacked airliners as tracked on radar (once again, without a link to any, um, what’s that shit called again, oh yeah, DATA) as requiring (and I’m defininately paraphrasing here, so correct me if I have part of it wrong) a “Top Gun level pilot to execute”.
Look for “document 2” pdf at bottom of page for a complete data of the flight including radar track:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/index.htm
A real “top gun” who became a very experienced commercial pilot claims that Flight 77’s radar track indicates a similar pilot (or better) in the pilot seat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXXBamBulqI
From the Washington Post: “At a speed of about 500 miles an hour, the plane was headed straight for what is known as P-56, protected air space 56, which covers the White House and the Capitol.
“The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane,” says O’Brien. “You don’t fly a 757 in that manner. It’s unsafe.” [NATCA]
But just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot [Hanjour] executed a pivot so tight that it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver. The plane circled 270 degrees to the right to approach the Pentagon from the west, whereupon Flight 77 fell below radar level, vanishing from controllers’ screens, the sources said.”
From the NY Times: [Flight Academy] Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot. “I’m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,” the former employee said. “He could not fly at all.”
“”For a guy to just jump into the cockpit and fly like an ace is impossible – there is not one chance in a thousand,” said [ex-commercial pilot Russ] Wittenberg, recalling that when he made the jump from Boeing 727’s to the highly sophisticated computerized characteristics of the 737’s through 767’s it took him considerable time to feel comfortable flying. [LewisNews]
“Dood. You ever flown any kind of aircraft? You ever been at the controls? Do you have ANY knowledge or experience that would lead you to arrive at that conclusion?”
My minor experience in flying small planes (I should’ve been a “pilot” now but accidents, unfortunately, happen) is nowhere near enough to base any conclusions on, but repeated statements from experienced pilots (or as you might call them “experts”) concerning the dubious nature of the story of Flight 77 is.
Upthread about 100 times.
Point out anything chum…..knock yerself out.
None of which, by the way, supports in any way your position that it is YOU and only YOU that gets to decide who is right and who is wrong and who is crazy.
“None of which”? None of which what? You know, it’s pretty fucking interesting that you’re suddenly taking the time to take ME to task for my opinion when this thread is filled with clowns insisting that I’M wrong and crazy…..or didn’t you notice that?
Hypocrite.
I probably got that notion ’cause at this point I really don’t care
Then what was your point to begin with? If you recall, you were barking at me, insisting I was wrong by a factor of ten. The fact remains that the buildings were engineered to withstand a 600 mph impact from a 707, which is the size/weight equivalent of the planes that hit. Apparently that amazing fact has had no impact on you.
The planes hit, the buildings went down, then the Bush Administration raped our country. You’re talking about speculative white papers that talk about the theoretical impact of planes that are, in fact, smaller than the planes that hit. By about 50,000 pounds, in your estimation – because they were definitely at their max, they were full of fuel. Again, times acceleration.
Engineering papers can be called a number of things but….speculative? Your figures are off because the planes were both carrying a fraction of their passenger/luggage maximum making them the virtual equivalents of 707’s. Given modern aircraft construction, they probably could’ve carried their entire load weight in fuel and it wouldn’t have made any significant difference (as about 80% of the fuel oxidized outside of the building, in the first few seconds).
Furthermore, does the white paper mention the effect of the burning fire softening the steel support? If so, please cite it. Otherwise, the white paper is not covering these circumstances
The buildings were engineered, according to the specs, to withstand a 600 mph hit from 707, not an empty 707, not one with 1/4 the fuel load, but full of fuel, a ‘worst case scenario”so, yeah…fire was taken into their calculations. It also says: “The Vierendeel trusses would be so effective, according to the engineers’ calculations, that all the columns on one side of a tower could be cut, as well as the two corners and several columns on the adjacent sides, and the tower would still be strong enough to withstand a 100-mile-per-hour wind.” That projected damage was vastly worse than what happened to either building, so you ought to be asking yourself what happened to turn 3 buildings into dust, from top to bottom, at free fall speeds….you know?
Essentially, you have supposition, and all the arguments for the mainstream opinion have solid evidence. And, worst in my view, your theory would require that the Bush Administration be able, effective planners and forethoughtful – which is something that they have never shown in ***any other endeavor**** – not even when it would be in their own best interest
Well, the fact is that the “mainstream opinion” isn’t backed by anything close to “solid evidence”, it’s just your opinion (which indicates that you feel that your opinion is correct and mine is, for all intents and purposes, worthless…..which is your right to think). A big flaw in your perception of all of this is that you seem to feel that the planning would have to come from the Bush administration, which I dispute. It could’ve come from many places and simply been given the green light by Cheney and company. There ARE competent people in this world who don’t hold to the same morality of good and evil that you and I do.
But, you believe what you want to believe.
You too, bro…and no hard feelings.
Hmmm………………….Well, it looks like my work here is done.
(He brushes the dust off of his jacket, adjusts the brim of his hat and uses his cane to swing at the air, as one would with a baseball bat. Yep, the old dude still has a little piss and vinegar left in him).
Adios, you poor brainwashed saps. In spite of it all, I wish you well.
Point out anything chum…..knock yerself out.
It’s all there, but like a fundamentalist you just won’t go for it.
It’s all there, but like a fundamentalist you just won’t go for it.
You ever see those yappy little dogs that run inside when a bigger dog walks by and when they think it’s gone, they come back out and start barking like they think they’re badass?
I’ve said this to you a couple of times now: Show me *any* point I’ve made here that is in error, or stop yapping.
You can cling to this security-blanket of a notion that my assertions are “stupid” but until you can offer any proof of it, you’re just a rather pathetic example of someone in denial.
a bigger dog
Heh.
until you can offer any proof of it
I did. You lose.
Righteous Bubba, time to give it up. Substance wins out over your style.
Substance
Poop?
Poop?
Well……..that’s his argument in a nutshell. Like a 20 month-old infant proudly putting his first word together as his excited mommy and daddy wait expectantly….”poop”.
I recognize that this is a difficult subject that causes some to want to curl up in a fetal position and start sucking their thumb again but…….if you’re literally doing that, you’ve got some serious problems. Seek professional help.
(Holy shit…..).
(Holy shit…..).
Most arguments you offer are dealt with simply and plainly here:
http://www.debunking911.com/
Your arguments are toast.
Your arguments are toast.
BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!!!!!!
Dude! Have you (somehow) forgotten that we’ve already talked about this? About how you clearly didn’t bother to actually take a look at the “arguments” that that site tries to present? The last time you tried this shit you said “take it up with this guy” because you couldn’t argue *any* points, even armed with his hysterically funny horseshit?
Jesus Christ, Bubbles………….have a *little* pride, rather than acting like such a pussy!
You can’t refute those arguments so you pretend they don’t flatten you.
You can’t refute those arguments so you pretend they don’t flatten you.
(heh) You can’t do it, can you? Not even one.
(“Take it up with him”).
You can’t fight your own battles, not even with the *enormous resources* (snicker) of the site that’s supposed to flatten me?
It must be a great relief to you that this thread has disappeared off of the Sadly, no radar, what with you being made into such a *punk* and all…
what with you being made into such a *punk* and all…
Yes, that’s me, the one that people don’t roll their eyes at when they start ranting.
(chirp, chirp………………..chirp, chirp).
(chirp, chirp………………..chirp, chirp).
Exactly. You lose.
Substance, Bubba, substance.
These other people you are pretending to be are as convincing as your theories.
Paranoia replacing insubstantiality.
Sock puppet replacing loser.
(heh), you’re reduced to accusing “gary” and me of being the same person?
Bubbles, you’re welcome to consult with the Sadly, No overlords to check our IP addresses…….but then you’d be forced to come up with another distraction from the fact that you can’t argue a single point that I’ve asserted here.
What the hell does that kind of “aversion” panic feel like, bro?
“aversion” panic feel like, bro?
No idea. Read it and weep: http://www.debunking911.com/
No idea. Read it and weep: http://www.debunking911.com/
Err…….no bro, *you* read it and weep (no ideas, as you’ll see as soon as you follow your own link. When, by the way, are you gonna do that?).
You see, in order to “debunk”………….you’ve got to at least try to, umm, debunk.
You see, in order to “debunk”………….you’ve got to at least try to, umm, debunk.
This is the thing: you are the flake. I don’t need to do anything for you to remain the flake.
Now I get it…. Bubba is really Bubbles from the Trailer Park Boys…he’s the guy with the glasses here:
http://www.trailerparkboys.com/site_clip_detail.php?clip=12&season=6
Whateverdude, come on, cut the guy some slack.
Righteous Bubbles really wanted to be a musician……
http://www.trailerparkboys.com/site_clip_detail.php?clip=31&season=11
This is the thing: you are the flake.
Sadly, no. To put it as you would: you lose!
That’s a great show.
Sadly, no.
See the post at the very top of the thread.
come on, cut the guy some slack.
I AM. (geez, you don’t think that this is hard as I can fall on hypocrites like this, do you? I’ve *repeatedly* given him every chance to take his “best shot” and he hasn’t even been willing to take a swing at me. And to think that Mikey called ME lazy!).
I’m too nice a guy…………Ok, go ahead Bubbles, go to your (*chuckle*) debunking site and come back with the awesomest argument you can find there and lemme have it. Now’s you chance to cut this arrogant prick down to size, I’ll even keep both hands behind my back…….Wouldn’t it be worth it to get me to say that Cheney would NEVER do anything to hurt his fellow Americans and that anyone suggesting such a thing is just a wacko?
(tick, tick, tick) This thread is disappearing Bubbles, you’re gonna have to work fast!
See the post at the very top of the thread.
This one?: “If a picture is worth a thousand words, you’ve given us ten thousand words worth of reasons not to listen to anyone who says Bush is doing a good job.
And sadly, people still will, despite the fact that the awful numbers and statistics boil into human suffering – and somehow, that seems not to reach the conservative mind”.
Err……great stuff. And………this is what you point to by way of rebuttal? Oooh, you’re a subtle one (what, with the not making any sense and all).
Oooh, you’re a subtle one (what, with the not making any sense and all).
An excellent demonstration of your fact-finding powers.
An excellent demonstration of your fact-finding powers.
Not the right one? Then your comment was an excellent demonstration of your inability to communicate, I guess (as that was the first post at the top of this thread. You do know what a “thread” is, right?).
Tell me something Bubbles…..is someone helping you reply, like an adult for example? Do you wear a helmet around the house? Do you go to school in a little, tiny bus? As I look back on your…replies…I’m wondering if you’re operating with more *challenges* than the rest of us, which would account for a number of things.
Then your comment was an excellent demonstration of your inability to communicate, I guess (as that was the first post at the top of this thread.
Heh. Keep looking genius. I’m sure the Carlyle Group are involved somehow.
Someone needs to put a webcam on whateverdude because this meltdown is gonna be epic.
The thing is there’s no payoff to leaving his kind of cult. If you give up being a Jesus freak you get to fuck people. Give up being a 9/11 freak and the world is about as fucked up as it was before.
Keep looking genius. I’m sure the Carlyle Group are involved somehow.
No doubt. So, by my accounting we’ve got another attempt by you to pass off your argument to someone else (in a post at the top of the thread which actually, isn’t) follwed by another “I got nuthin’!”.
You keeping score Simba? You waiting for a meltdown? The rest of this is gonna be mighty dissappointing for ya, I fear. Wanna play, or are you another one who hasn’t got a clue about any of this?
So, by my accounting we’ve got another attempt by you to pass off your argument to someone else
Ooh, not at all.
The thing is there’s no payoff to leaving his kind of cult. If you give up being a Jesus freak you get to fuck people. Give up being a 9/11 freak and the world is about as fucked up as it was before.
Holy shit, you sound just like one of those “post-pod” cats in “The Invasion of the Body Snatchers”. Ok dude, I’m ready to convert to your strange religion, just give me *one* proof of where I’ve been wrong. (Come on Bubbles, you can do it!).
just give me *one* proof of where I’ve been wrong.
Sure: http://www.debunking911.com/
Ooh, not at all.
Uh-huh, so the “post at the top of the thread” was written by you, using a “pen name”?
Didn’t think so.
So……….my accounting was right, right?
Sure: http://www.debunking911.com/
(shakes head, stunned) English isn’t your first language, is it?
Go…to…your…site (if you can stand it)..and…pick…the…strongest…example.
(must be some Babelfish translation problem).
For you, whateverdude. Apply your expertise to the melting, burning overpass case.
So……….my accounting was right, right?
Of course not. You’re the kook.
Some dude who wrote some books:
Whatever.
Apply your expertise to the melting, burning overpass case
A pleasure. You’re trying to draw a parallel between the two incidents? Because there was concrete and steel involved? This is a terriffic example of “apples and oranges”. In the first place, an overpass is not built like the Trade Centers were. As is typical, this concrete overpass was built on a base of relatively small beams which are secured by nothing more than bolts (you might not want to dwell on this if you drive on these kinds of structures regularly). The Trade Centers, however, were built with a core of gigantic steel reinforced columns at their centers and a surrounding steel framework of huge steel beams that were *welded* together.
Here’s a link to the overpass collapse: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070429/oakland_freeway_070429/20070429?hub=World
In the article, you’ll read the following: “Witnesses reported flames rising up to 200 feet into the air. Heat exceeded 2,750 degrees and caused the steel beams holding up the interchange from eastbound I-80 to eastbound Interstate 580 above to buckle and bolts holding the structure together to melt, leading to the collapse, California Department of Transportation director Will Kempton said.”
In the government’s study of the Trade Towers (NIST report), you’ll read the following”
NIST: “In no instance did NIST report that steel in the
WTC towers melted due to the fires. The melting point of
steel is about 1,500 degrees Celsius (2,800 degrees Fahrenheit).
Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel)
fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius
(2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). NIST reported maximum
upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius
(1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example,
see NCSTAR 1, figure 6-36)” [3].
Additionally, remember that the Trade Tower events saw approximately 80% of the fuel oxidized in the first few seconds, *outside* of the buildings. This left very little fuel for internal fires (which lasted only minutes) and much cooler temperatures than the overpass incident, which was catastrophic because of the failure of small bolts, not massive beams.
This thread may be gone by morning but….there’s your answer.
But respectable paranoid literature not only starts from certain moral commitments that can indeed be justified but also carefully and all but obsessively accumulates :evidence.”
There’s an eccentric, ironic charm to having someone who believes that 19 guys, led by a guy in a cave, defeated America’s multi-trillion dollar defense system with pilots who couldn’t fly and brought three steel-framed buildings (including one that no aircraft touched) down into their own footprint (and leaving a magic passport as evidence on top of the powdered rubble)….accusing ME of paranoia!
Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!
accusing ME of paranoia!
Your theory posits a cabal you can do nothing about. You’re a perpetual victim.
[…] …the folks at Sadly, No! respond. This entry was posted on Saturday, May 17th, 2008 at 11:50 am and is filed under Bush Administration. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed. Home» […]
[…] UPDATE: Lest the context be lost in all this, it would behoove us to remember that the person currently accusing his political opponents of “appeasement” is, um, this guy. […]
How dare you. You ignorant Bastard. You ignorant BASTARD.
How dare you insult the lives of our troops.
Make no mistake, that is what you have done. 9/11 was the Clinton administrations fault. If he hadn’t cut the Humint division of the CIA into shreds, maybe we would’ve been warned. If he hadn’t single-handedly destroyed our information Architecture, maybe we would’ve known.
As far as the deaths go, “Wartime” casualties are almost even with Peacetime casualties.
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/crs-stats-show-troop-deaths-at-peacetime-rate
As for the debt, in-case you haven’t noticed, Obama has more than Quadrupled said debt.
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/02/26/quick-observations-on-president-obama%E2%80%99s-budget/
The Mortgage thing was bound to happen eventually.
So was the gas prices thing.
You can hardly blame these things on one man. Well you can, you just look like an idiot to anyone on the outside.
And before you assume i’m another crazy republican, i voted Ron Paul.
I year and a half later you gave ’em what for, yessir, that you did.
Thank you for keeping the comedy tradition alive by supplying a punchline.
Don’t blame me; I voted for Kodos.
“Make no mistake, that is what you have done. 9/11 was the Clinton administrations fault. If he hadn’t cut the Humint division of the CIA into shreds, maybe we would’ve been warned.”
Ah, yet another “Clinton cut national defense so 9/11’s his fault” argument…
Have you ever read Colin Powell’s autobiography? Very strong cuts in defense spending were underway back in the Bush administration; Clinton simply followed the trend he set into motion. It’s not Bush’s fault either; any administration, Democrat or Republican, would have done the same.
Why? Because the Cold War was OVER, and unlike at the end of World War Two, there was no obvious great enemy to be fought. In a country like America, that means cuts in military spending. The fault for that lies not with Democrats or Republicans, it lies in the American people – historically, unless there’s an obvious Great Evil Bogeyman to go out and kill, we the people don’t give two shits about the outside world and won’t even hear about spending money on it.
(By the way, one of the biggest criticisms from the right against Clinton back in the 1990s was that he was too interested in foreign affairs and not vital American affairs like The Homosexual Threat or The War On Christmas. Funny how quickly they changed their tune from “Clinton’s doing too much” to “Clinton didn’t do enough” after 9/11).
“… before you assume i’m another crazy republican, i voted Ron Paul.”
facepalm.jpg
Thank you for keeping the comedy tradition alive by supplying a punchline.