I have no real idea who Vox is, but that’s some fine writing of his you link to….
“we called her ‘Penthouse’ because of her long, flowing mane of hair and her not-quite-ready-for-Playboy prettiness”
Yeeebus.

As I mentioned before, If Bush is a Socialist Leftie Hippie, that actually makes Republicans even MORE inept for electing him. Twice.

And is it not interesting that they’re just now realizing this as the elections start up? Like, it took them 6 years (and two elections) to realize they’ve been duped into voting for Flower Power? Can we add that to the list of ineptitude?

There’s actually quite a bit of non-pro-Hillary sentiment out there, in Moonbatland. Heck, there’s even a bit of anti-Hillary out there. So I’m not really sure how she was “anointed”. But whatevah.

Has Andy Sullivan ever been anything better than an opportunist?

“Has Andy Sullivan ever been anything better than an opportunist?”

I actually like his writing and some of his opinions. To be fact-sensitive doesn’t mean he is a turncoat or an opportunist. AFAIK he has never given Bush nor his (fellow) cheerleaders any slack regarding Iraq or other policies. He just wasn’t totally against the invasion from the beginning.

As for Vox, I do not think it is rational to vote libertarian, but I sure as hell believe a true feminist doesn’t hold back in a sparring context just because the opponent has ovaries. As long as one doesn’t enjoy giving it to women more than men I find not holding back to be progressive and a counter to knee-jerk sentiments force-fed into our brains during childhood.

100 % of the paycheck means 100 % whoop-ass on the dojo floor. I am a feminist and I stand for that.

100 % of the paycheck means 100 % whoop-ass on the dojo floor. I am a feminist and I stand for that.

As another feminist and a lifelong martial artist, I completely agree with that. I hold back equally with everyone, until they show me they’re ready to handle more (meaning, basically, that they kick my ass- always a joyful experience). Getting the paycheck means proving yourself, and so does full-force, full-contact, full-technique sparring.

Yeah, Vox is a real feminist. Jesus Christ.

To be fact-sensitive doesn’t mean he is a turncoat or an opportunist. AFAIK he has never given Bush nor his (fellow) cheerleaders any slack regarding Iraq

Ahahahahah. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. OH shit. AHAHAHAHAHA. Hah. Funny how people think the blogosphere’s history started when *they* started reading.

I’ve never heard of this Vox Day character, but I have to say I’m, uh– What’s the opposite of “impressed?” If they awarded “belts” for cobaggery, he’d be a tenth-degree black belt cobag.

The haircut, the obsession with martial arts, the libertarianism… This is the kind of dude who has pet snakes. And possibly some nunchucks.

“Yeah, Vox is a real feminist. Jesus Christ.”

I didn’t say he was a feminist just because he wasn’t holding back – I said *a* true feminist wouldn’t. His behaviour in that dojo can’t be held against him – that was what I sought to communicate.

And stop using JC in language – he was a submoron who said the sick Old Testament should be followed “jot and tittle” – he should be purged from human communication altogether.

I actually like his writing and some of his opinions. To be fact-sensitive doesn’t mean he is a turncoat or an opportunist.

I can cope with his inconsistency. I think he made crappy editorial decisions at TNR, and that he’s often infuriating. But if you follow his blog, you do get the sense of someone thinking out loud, rather than reading from a nasty little script. There are always going to be conservatives around, and politics would be a bit healthier if they were more like Sullivan.

Fifty bucks says Voxiemoron is a proud owner of the complete Walker, Texas Ranger collection.

“Sweep the leg…”

The fact is that the 6/5 GOP debate showed the need for a credible conservative candidate in this field.

Romney is basically Democrat-lite, Giuliani would be a Democrat in most states, and McCain is basically a pandering sellout.

Fred Thompson is a man who towers over the rest of this field and he’s the man that America needs.

Other comments on the 6/5 GOP debate

Tancredo: Whiny but still with some good points
Hunter: The Sane Tancredo
Tommy Thompson: Irrelevant
Gilmore: Only there to audition for the VP spot
Brownback: Irrevelant
Huckabee: Made some good points, also broke the 11th commandment by claiming Republicans deserved to lose in 2006
Paul: Raving lunatic

I will note that at least Giuliani and Romney got their pandering down correctly on Scooter Libby. Libby is a victim of a political vendetta, and he should be pardoned.

Pardon Libby and Fire Fitzgerald

If Fred Thompson towers over that field, Gary, you have condemned the modern GOP much more thoroughly than most liberals would do. Fred is a hack and a soft target for the Democrats – he makes Dole look like a good campaigner.

Libby is a victim of a political vendetta

Yup indeed, GareBear. A Republican-appointed US Attorney (nominated by a Republican Senator) being sent forth by a loyal Republican Deputy AG to investigate a Republican-controlled White House is clearly nuthin’ but political get-back.

Care to take another swing?

The last few weeks of Kevinned threads have taught me to appreciate the sheer class of the Gary Ruppert Experience.

Does Mr. Thompson make you feel all tingly in your naughty places, Oedipus Ruppert?

http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/Fred_Thompson.htm

So he’s in favor of carbon monoxide, against solar power.
He was against roads in national parks before he was for it.
Has no problem selling violent games to kids.
He’s still pissed off at Cuba for being there.
Wants terrorists to have the right to buy as many guns as they want at gun shows.
Thinks chemical weapons are spiffy.
Yet also wanted to reduce our stockpiles of nukes and close bases. That confuses me.
Wants to increase the number of migrant, unskilled workers.
Thinks only pussies get carpal tunnel.
Wants all those migrant workers to stay nice and poor, thank you very much.
Voted Yes on Iraq. No on Kosovo. Hey, let’s not do anything STUPID with the military, fellas!

You know, funny thing is that, I googled up Fred, and got a bunch of links to news sites about him, and a few links to sites wanting him to run, but no site from him about himself.
He’s such a great leader, he let’s others run his campaign for him, I guess.

C’mon guys, Hollywood Fred will do things when he’s President. He just doesn’t know what they are yet.

“Has Andy Sullivan ever been anything better than an opportunist?�

I actually like his writing and some of his opinions. To be fact-sensitive doesn’t mean he is a turncoat or an opportunist. AFAIK he has never given Bush nor his (fellow) cheerleaders any slack regarding Iraq or other policies. He just wasn’t totally against the invasion from the beginning.

Yeah, there’s positives that can be said about Andrew Sullivan. But personally, I will never forget this statement, that he made about three days after 9/11/2001:

“The middle part of the country – the great red zone that voted for Bush – is clearly ready for war. The decadent Left in its enclaves on the coasts is not dead – and may well mount what amounts to a fifth column.â€?

Let’s think about this clearly folks. It means that the first thing that went through Sullivan’s mind after the attacks wasn’t “lets all pull together to defeat these terrorists”, and it wasn’t “what could drive terrorists to do this?”.

It was, “It’s time to start some shit against leftists and anyone who doesn’t want war”.

Never fucking forget that folks.

atheist, ty for digging that up – I haven’t been around very long (just 18, and was happily playing Rogue Squadron on the GC when the towers fell) and I wasn’t aware Sullivan thought being pro-war was something true and correct, even though anyone with a brain should have been aware of how the government passively aided the 9/11 attack and had extremely dubious capacity to wage a war with a justifying end or means…

HTML, that’s pretty cheap, the way you linked to that karate piece. Why mischaracterize someone’s point when the argument they ARE making (women are physically weaker than men and this makes them unfit to serve, as modern warfare is primarily conducted hand-to-hand) is so entertainingly stupid?

Xel–yes, the government deserves some of the blame for 9/11, but let’s not forget who the real villains are: the game designers who came up with the on-foot missions in Rogue Squadron III.

You are welcome, Xel. I just don’t want people to forget how Sullivan acted when the chips were down.

And may I say, Jesus Christ was nothing like a moron, he was obviously a very brilliant philosopher and activist.

Modern warfare is primarily conducted hand-to-hand?

Oh, that explains all those snipers, white phosphorus shells, vehicle convoys, air strikes, missile attacks, and big-ticket Navy and Air Force toys like B2 bombers and aircraft carriers.

This is excellent news! We can start issuing gladii and javelins to our hoplites, and save all that money on submarines and fuel-air bombs.

“And may I say, Jesus Christ was nothing like a moron, he was obviously a very brilliant philosopher and activist.”

Anyone who is aware of the jot and tittle of the Old Testament and claims it to be worthy of consideration by mankind needs some marginalized mexicomuslofascists to clean up the attic.

“Xel–yes, the government deserves some of the blame for 9/11, but let’s not forget who the real villains are: the game designers who came up with the on-foot missions in Rogue Squadron III.” Quoted for truth. Same thing with Namco and their shot at the Starfox franchise…

I think the problem with humans, when we are onto what women are “unfit” for, is our tenacity for patterns. Hypothesize that 90 % of a certain, phenotypically identifiable group in society doesn’t meet requirements for an occupation. What we need to remember is to not bat an eyelid when those 10 % do meet requirements – these 10 % deserve no special treatment, positive or negative. Just because a thing isn’t “usual” doesn’t mean it is rational to react differently to its existence.

Humanity must be ready to accomodate all lawful behaviour without knee-jerk reactions – conservatives, who believe that patterns, conventions and systems exist for a reason (for example, help them in their designs) hinder this readiness.

But left-wingers are not off the hook either. This is serious business. Like cussing and women choosing godless, androgynous careers over unpaid domestic work.

Vox is clearly a liar. You know what happens to people who get treated the way he describes the “test” in that martial arts school? They die. They break their necks. They suffer brain damage. They have failure of major organs. They have their ribs puncture their lungs. They have their windpipes crushed.

Vox is a liar, pure and simple.

As far as wingnut lookalikes go, I believe I’ve found a perfect match for Fred Thompson.

I still say Richard Perle looks like he belongs in Lidsville. Isn’t there a Krofft Kreation you could pair him up with?

1. Andrew Sullivan is a worthless shitbag. If he’s thinking out loud, I’d rather that he think silently to himself. He uses too many words to say nothing. (I’ve always wanted to set him up on a blind date with Jeff Jacoby).

2. Kinda fun to see Garbot again. Free Willy! Fire Shamu!

I am sure that VD, like most Libertarians, still happily voted for Bush as many times as he could.

But: That “martial arts” piece reads like snuff porn.

No true martial arts that I know of would test a lower belt rank by having higher belt ranks spar uninhibited. That’s just a Fight Club.

As a matter of fact, as a ranking black belt, I am OBLIGATED to temper my techniques to my opponent’s level. As Snowwy said, when outclassed by an opponenet, defeat is a treasured learning experience; as an experienced sparrer, it is my duty to provide that experience to my opponent. Defeat, not destruction.

VD’s little story made me sick. I hope he meets a real martial arts master someday and has his ass handed to him. An integral part of any martial arts training is humility. Day has none, and at least in our training, would likely be denied a black belt on those grounds alone.

Sickeningly, I am half convinced that his putative “dojo” does exist, because there are plenty of sick fucks who just like to beat on people out there. But let’s not pretend it’s a martial art, and let’s not pretend this imaginary female opponent learned any self-defense from it. As part of my duties, I aid my instructor in teaching actual, certified Self Defense classes, and the kind of no holds barred fighting has NOTHING to do with real life self defense techniques.

The wingnuts lookalikes list is your Sistine Chapel- totally awe-inspiring.

As for “Vox Day”, who the fuck is this Dieter? Would someone make him get a normal haircut, and stop describing his “brutal full-contact martial-arts dojo” in approximately the same tone as a really weird gay orgy. “Not many women can handle our brand of brutal, ass-pounding sex.” It’s just gross.

Would someone make him get a normal haircut, and stop describing his “brutal full-contact martial-arts dojo� in approximately the same tone as a really weird gay orgy. “Not many women can handle our brand of brutal, ass-pounding sex.� It’s just gross.

Having, due to bad luck, been subjected to more than one Ultimate Fighting Championship broadcast over the years, I’m inclined to think you’re on to something. Some of those matches make Greco-Roman wrestling look ultra-butch.

C’mon, Teh, The Hamburglar wasn’t good enough?

🙁

Who knew that Vox Day was a member of the Cobra Kai dojo? Maybe we should call in Ralph Macchio to deal with him.

teh l4m3 said,

I still say Richard Perle looks like he belongs in Lidsville. Isn’t there a Krofft Kreation you could pair him up with?

HTML Mencken said,

C’mon, Teh, The Hamburglar wasn’t good enough?

I’m happy to say you’re both right.

Sid and Marty Krofft’s people worked on McDonaldland but the agency stiffed the brothers for their fee. The Krofft brothers successfully sued.

This thread has cemented my number one rule for reading blog posts.

Read the comments BEFORE clicking the linkies

Now I don’t have to actually read the Vox Day piece of tripe referenced in the post, because I’ve read the comments and understand that if I were to read it it would a.) Piss me off and b.) Cause me to say mean, intemperate things about imaginary tough guys and their need to tell everybody they can find just how tough they are. It’s some kind of self-esteem problem. Maybe we could treat it with Ritalin? Here’s hoping…

mikey

Gary’s back!

Libby is a victim of a political vendetta, and he should be pardoned.

Hi Gary! Man, after some real unpleasant trolls over the last couple weeks, you are very welcome. Y’all hurry back. If for no other reason then to explain how a political vendetta caused Scooter to lie to the FBI AND a Federal Grand Jury. I mean, that’s some powerful vendetta mojo. Is Fitz like Obi Wan, and can wave his hand and make people say what he wants them to say? ‘Splain it to me, Gary…

mikey

Mikey’s right! This is from the trial transcript:

Fitz: “These aren’t the ‘droids you’re looking for.”
Scooter: “These aren’t the ‘droids we’re looking for.”

Wow, scary!

Y’know, this name’s better because there’s evidence for it.

I developed a theory some years ago that ultimate fighting/pro-wrestling, gay porn, and heavy metal music would soon become basically indistinguishable from one another. That hasn’t quite happened yet, but they’re still the repository of a whoooole lot of unprocessed homoerotic feeling- well, not unprocessed in the case of the porn but you get the picture.

Gary! Are you doing ok? I know that John Bolton not running for President was a big blow to you. How you holding up?

Gary! Are you doing ok? I know that John Bolton not running for President was a big blow to you.

It was a big moustache-ride to him.

The fact is that Fitzgerald knew who the leaker was and that no crime was committed, but he still pursued a partisan investigation against the Bush Administration.

There was no reason to interview Libby, because there was no crime and we knew who the leaker was.

As well, Fitzgerald ignored legitimate reports about Joe Wilson leaking his wife’s name.

So lemme get this straight. The FBI is interviewing me over some other matter. I tell them I say Gary Ruppert rob a bank in Los Angeles. Now, it turns out that not only did gary NOT rob that bank, nobody did. NO CRIME WAS COMMITTED. As such, I am not to be held legally accountable for lying to the FBI about you? That’s CRAZY. If no crime was committed, Scooter didn’t have to lie. He lied. He was charged with perjury and obstruction, and was found guilty. You just can’t get around the fact that he was charged with the same crime as bill clinton, and in this case he was CONVICTED. Unless you’re taking the position that receiving a blowjob is a felony, no crime was committed then either, but lying about it resulted in prosecution. If you liked the one, you gotta own ’em both…

mikey

Fred Thompson is my dream GOP candidate. He’d be the easiest to beat.

The way the primaries are shaking out really favors the Dems. It’s hard to imagine the top-tier Dem candidates getting really nasty. The Dem primary campaign will be civil and polite, and the winner will come out relatively unscathed. The Rethug primary, however, will be down and dirty. I guarantee you there will be hurt feelings all around when that thing is over, regardless of who the nominee is.

Interesting JK47. Personally, I don’t care who it is, or what their strategy will be, so long as they lose.

Fred Thompson is a man who towers over the rest of this field and he’s the man that America needs.

He had a grand total of four bills become law while he was a Senator. He led a number of committee investigations that came up with no results. He has a well-earned reputation as a lazy do-nothing. When asked what issues he’d base his campaign on, he had nothing to say.

You’re right. He certainly does tower over the GOP field.

Otto, he had something to say.

He said that as Prezident he’d “do some things”

Conservative Preznitial material all the way, boy howdy.

Sorry, Billy. You’re right about that.

“Thompson 2008: He Likes Stuff.”

How about: Thompson 2008: Things Will Be Done?

Works on so many levels.

Perhaps there should be a !

Thompson 2008: Things Will Be Done!

What do you think, Gary?

I think if Thompson became Preznit, things would, indeed, be done. DRF*, to be precise.

*Done, Ruined, Fucked h/t Arabella Trefoil (I think)

Barack Obama has submitted 98 bills in 29 months in the Senate, and only one Obama bill has been signed into law.

Only Liberal Eggheads care about how many bills someone passed.

Fred Thompson knows that we don’t need more government. America knows that too.

That’s why America won’t be swayed by the reports that Fred Thompson wasn’t a self-promotion artist (like John McCain)

As well, Fred Thompson’s intelligence and poise will crush idiotic candidates like Barack Obama. Obama being proof that you can hide intellectual flaws through speeches.

Thompson ’08: Too Lazy to Change.

Thompson’s entry into the primary field will definitely skew things. He’ll probably siphon off just about all the votes of the fundie candidates like Brownback and Fuckabee. No big deal, since those dudes have zero chance of winning. But I think he’ll also break off some wingnuts who love Rudy’s authoritarianism but who don’t buy the total Rudy package. I think Thompson probably hurts Rudy the most.

The winners: Romney and McCain.

Gentlewoman: You’re almost there. I think it just needs to be a bit more, shall we say, avuncular.

Groan.

29,500 Google hits for the string +thompson +avuncular. I’ll bet less than half of the countless journalists using that adjective for that man have ever used it in a sentence before using it on Fred. Now they use it every time they write about Fred, when they aren’t deploying gruff, as in the classic construction gruff yet avuncular. Literature, that. Geez Louise, it’s as original as doing Milli Vanilli covers, but less entertaining. And those guys probably knew the definitions of the words they were repeating beforehand.

Maybe Hillary could get better press by being more avauntular.

Well, I gotta give madd props to Garbot for using the words Fred Thompson and intelligence and poise in the same sentence.

But when el ex-Senatore’s 37 days of fame are done and over, you’re gonna have to develop a new mancrush, Garbot.

K-Lo’s already declared for Mitt, but I hear Brownback may be available come September.

I must have missed the link where Voxy talks about his macho macho dojo, which sounds like a mix between the “Bow to your sensei!” character from Napoleon Dynamite and that Robot Chicken sketch with N’Sync (or the Backstreet Boys. Whoever.) but I would like to add my quick two bits.

I am also a black belt (disclosure; technically just a high red, but only because I never got around to taking the Black test.) and Vox is full of shit. I also know people who run womans self defense classes, the kind sponsored by the police, and I can again claim that he is full of shit.

One of my favorite memories from the day was when I was practice sparring with one of the dojo masters, the kind where one just holds the target pad and the other kicks. And I mean, literally, master. Read: “fourth degree blackbelt from Korea”.
I’m a pretty decently large guy, 6 feet, maybe 200 at the time. Dude lands a side kick, and sends me flying back ten feet into the wall. Coolest fucking thing ever.

So yeah, if this guy’s idea of “dojo” is “we’re going to let the high levels beat up on the newbies”, I say “you’re full of shit.”

Some Guy: Same thing happened to me! I’m 6′, 220. I’m holding the pad for the grandmaster who is just kicking it and bouncing off. Then, without changing his speed or anything I could see, simply sends me flying with one kick. And I outweighed him by 80 lbs. or so.

I find it satisfying that all the black belts who’ve posted here have called Vox out as a liar about his beating up on the lower belts. I’ve studied four martial arts (only black belt in one though) and in every one the first things you learn is “self control” and “respect.” Not, “beat the crap out of people.”

Now they use it every time they write about Fred
Now that ‘avuncular’ has entered the official journalism approved word list, ‘uxurious’ cannot be far away.

Strike first, strike hard, no mercy, sir!

“Only Liberal Eggheads care about how many bills someone passed.”

Uhhh… wait, so, what we should do is ignore the smart, educated people, because they’re just smart and educated and know how things work (like, say, government and diplomacy) so therefore their opinions don’t matter….

Yeah, that pretty much describes Republicans.

Oh, and since you mentioned numbers, in effort to look smart, your man Thompson was a Senator for 8 years, or 96 months. 96 is a much, much larger number then 29. So, Thompson passed 4 bills to Obama’s 1, but did so in a little over three times as much time. So, if we average this out, Obama would statistically pass 3.3 bills to Tommy’s 4.
What we really need for a full analysis is the number of how many bills Tommy submitted, but I really don’t care that much.

“Fred Thompson knows that we don’t need more government. America knows that too.”

Which is why he just gosh darn keeps on trying to get into that Government we don’t need, then sit around and suckling the teat of a Federal paycheck while not passing any bills to change anything.

“That’s why America won’t be swayed by the reports that Fred Thompson wasn’t a self-promotion artist (like John McCain)”

Is this the same kind of thing where America wouldn’t be fooled by Teh Left, and would vote MORE Republicans into Congress in 2006, Al Ruppert? I think you need to get your America Radar in for maintenance and a tune-up, cause it doesn’t seem to be working to well lately…

“Obama being proof that you can hide intellectual flaws through speeches.”

I dun even know what that’s supposed to mean. Though I will say that sentence is grammatically incorrect in a few ways. But besides, you’re contradicting yourself, now. Didn’t you start off by saying that smart people are bad and should be ignored? I’m so confused.

Then there’s this, from wiki:
In March 2003, Thompson was featured in a commercial by the conservative group Citizens United that advocated the invasion of Iraq, stating: “When people ask what has Saddam done to us, I ask, what had the 9/11 hijackers done to us — before 9/11.”

If that quite is accurate, then A: Thompson can’t speaka the engrish so well. or B: Thompson’s doing that “Iraq and Al Qaeda = BFF” thing, which still makes him an idiot.
Oh, I get why Gary likes him, now. He’s Bush 2.0, with a Lemon fresh zing!

See, this is why we love Gary so much! ShoeAngel and Kevin are just hodge podges of circular logic, mobius thinking, and shadow puppetry that makes claims without actually stating anything, thus rendering any attempt to have fun with them futile. But Gary, he’s a fiiiiine cheese and wine, something you savor as it plays with every one of your five senses.

I don’t know karate, but I know ka-razy.

I, for one, am swayed by Gary Ruppert’s stirring defense of Fred Thompson. He hasn’t done shit, doesn’t have plans to do shit, but he’s going to provide some kind of vaguely defined leadership and totally stick it to Obama. Awesome, Gary. Just awesome.

Will the last voter to leave the Republican Party please shut off the lights?

From this point forward, I shall refer to Vox Day as “Cobra Khai.” Please feel free to join me in this endeavor.

From this point forward, I shall refer to Vox Day as “Cobra Khai.� Please feel free to join me in this endeavor.

T-shirts!

Fred Thompson has plans to reduce the size of government, although it’ll take a purge of the liberals in Congress to truely make the government smaller.

So, when Fred’s “plans” fail, we’ll all know exactly why.Damn libruls.

Hey Gary, can you give us some examples of what Thompson has done during his political career that has “reduced the size of government?” Maybe it just looks smaller when he’s around because he’s so big and fat.

Come on, people, be fair. A few threads downstream, Travis did quote Thompson as saying “the next president should have the courage to talk straight with the American people…”
I mean, the only way to be braver or more substantial than that would be for the guy to talk straight himself.

Some of you so-called martial artists here are pretty amusing. You must have bought your “black belts” at one of those strip mall belt factories or trained at one of the many places where sparring is a glorified form of tag and no head contact is allowed. I’ve met many “fighters” of that sort, and no matter how technically skilled they are, they can’t spar their way out of a paper bag. I think my personal favorites are the tae kwon do kickers who drop their hands and get completely lost when someone steps in and jams them.

Now, at our dojo, no one ever beat up on the lower belts during regular sparring, beyond the inevitable knock-downs and the very occasional accidental knock-out, but belt tests were a test of endurance and will as well as skill.

In the column referenced, the girl was testing for her purple belt and I was one of the higher-ranking fighters selected to test her, hence the beat-down. She’s now ni-dan. But in any event, believe what you like, and I certainly hope you enjoy your touch karate games.

Vox aka “Kobra Khai”

Hey vox, you woudn’t mind linking to this “school” where this event took place, would you? I’m sure they have a webpage. Oh, and I’m sure the webpage will link to one of the international federations that certify it. I’m sure it couldn’t be a figment of your imagination.

As I argued up thread, you know what happens to someone who takes a shot to the face from a real martial artist who doesn’t pull the punch? They die, you lying asshole. Or, if they don’t die, it is equivalent of being hit with a baseball bat. But I’m sure that kind of thing happened all the time at your “school.”

And yeah, no punching to the head is allowed in the “glorified form of tag” that is TKD sparring. You know, like at the Olympics. Buncha pussies. No hitting to the head and wearing pads and pulling you kicks enough so that you only produce “trembling shock” rather than death. But, I’m sure your “school” and you know a whole lot more about “real sparring” than the ninth degree black belts who run TKD at the Olympics.

Talk to us about respect and courtesy and the other tenets of martial arts you learned at your “school,” sir. I don’t see that anywhere in what you’ve written. Which is another reason I think you are a liar.

Shorter Vox aka “Kobra Khai�:

I am TOO a tough guy, I am, I AM, I AM SO a tough guy, and my dad can beat up your dad…

So there…

mikey

Possibly off-topic, but does anyone know why so many names of martial arts sound like someone sneezing?

Fred Thompson has plans to reduce the size of government, although it’ll take a purge of the liberals in Congress to truely make the government smaller.

Actually, since the Bush Administration’s domestic spending has been the largest in constant dollars since 1945, I’d imagine getting rid of the Bushies would do a lot to help.

In other news, I think it’s terrific that they let you access the internet from your third-grade classroom, Gary. Keep reaching for the stars, Champ, and never ever let facts get in your way. You’re truely a genius.

…does anyone know why so many names of martial arts sound like someone sneezing?

I LIKE this. “My” martial art, while accurately described as “The Tactical Handgun”, shall from now on be known as “GoBang”…

mikey

Qetesh or someone will be along soon to point out that Ecky-Thump is the exception to this pattern.

Vox Day? He studied under me.

Now that ‘avuncular’ has entered the official journalism approved word list, ‘uxurious’ cannot be far away.

Herr Doktor, did you mean uxorious or usurious? I’m frankly befuddled.

And I do consider that Ecky Thump sounds as much like a sneeze as any martial art, provided you pronounce it in the traditional way, which is “eckyeckyecky…THUMP!” Plus a whack around the noggin with a black pudding is bound to give you the stuffed-up head common to sneezy fits.

Aside from that, no sneerity comments about Asian names of martial arts please: in my other existence, I have been wont to write short reviews of Asian films for the cognoscenti at this marvellous shrine to Asian cinema. And I note in passing that they feature not one but two of my reviews on the front page this week: Tetsuo is one of them, and a more bizarre film you will never see. I challenge you to talk about sneezes to this man and see how you go.

The other one is Tokyo Drifter, for anyone who can’t sleep for wondering. Amazingly cool, and if anyone made sneezing jokes at this bloke he’d simply wipe you off his white buckskin shoes and wander off into the snow whistling.

Right, boxers and UFC fighters are just dying all over the place from getting punched in the head, fardels. Really thought hard about that one, didn’t you. If you had ever done any contact sparring, then you’d know how hard it is to get a perfectly clean shot on someone who knows how to protect themselves and keep their guard up. That whole game of “if you touch them, you could have hit them if you wanted to” is nonsense because it eliminates any need for the target to protect himself, so instead of being doubled-over or getting knocked off-balance, he’s already throwing a kick in response. It’s false and it teaches terrible habits.

Now obviously, you never go for a KO shot on someone who’s been opened up and is defenseless, the only time anyone ever got knocked out was when they got careless and walked into something. Happened to me once, it was no big deal.

Olympic tae kwon do is pretty lame, in my opinion. Just step inside their kicking range and they’re practically helpless, especially with those big rear leg kicks you can see coming a mile away. If you want to play very nasty, just block at the ankle with the point of your elbow. Crack! Game over. As for respect and courtesy, you clearly didn’t learn any, so I have no idea why you think it’s somehow inherent to the martial arts. I mean, you do know that leaping about and accusing people you don’t know of lying is neither respectful nor courteous, right?

Anyhow, my old dojo hasn’t been around for some time now, but I spent a while at Karate Junction training under Karl Bradford. Sparred a few times with CB at Bloomington Karate too, I think they’ve got a web site.

“…does anyone know why so many names of martial arts sound like someone sneezing”

Don’t make me give you the lecture about the history of Aikijitsu/Akido/Hapkido, Jujitsu/Judo, and Kenpo….we’ll all die of starvation.

GoBang – The original point and click martial art.

MMMmmm…pie.

Right, boxers and UFC fighters are just dying all over the place from getting punched in the head, fardels. Really thought hard about that one, didn’t you.

Look, we made it mad. This is almost as cool as the time Marie Jon’ came on here and called me a “very stupid person.”

Now obviously, you never go for a KO shot on someone who’s been opened up and is defenseless, the only time anyone ever got knocked out was when they got careless and walked into something. Happened to me once, it was no big deal.

Ah, yes, I remember the time Daniel-San got you with that crane kick.

Is Kobra Khai the biggest wimp ever or what?

Better go cryin’ back to the other guys in your ‘dojo’ ’cause you are out of your league.

Ah, yes, I remember the time Daniel-San got you with that crane kick.

actually, I am pretty sure it was the next karate kid that got him, hence the creepy posts.

Anyhow, my old dojo hasn’t been around for some time now

How con-veeeeen-ient.

Please, you loony leftists, stop making fun of ol’ VD’s “haircut.” It’s not a haircut. It’s Reverse Male Pattern Baldness.

Christian Libertarian. Southern Baptist. Hmmm, so he’s free not to drink, smoke, dance or…(Well, no wonder he’s beating up any one who gets in his way. Totally repressed.)

Okay, I’m pretty surprised nobody mentioned this yet.

Vox Day is on record stating that if he received what he believed to be a brainwave from Jesus, telling him to go out and slaughter every child under the age of two that he could get his karate chops on, he’d do it with a song in his heart.

I can’t think of anything to add to that, apart from a stern admonishment to anyone who might some day dine with Vox to never put LSD in his oatmeal. I mean, if you’re lucky, the acid voices will tell him that women are in fact people, but I don’t think you want to take the chance that the voices will instruct him to eat your delicious brainmeats instead.

This is the kind of dude who has pet snakes.
What’s wrong with pet snakes, anyway? If it weren’t for New Zealand’s importation laws, I would have my own vaso-constrictor.

Vox, not only are you a liar, but you are a really, really bad liar. When called out on improbabilities in your lies, you are supposed to fill in details to make them more credible. Instead you bluster and talk about how tough you are and end up making even less sense than you did before.

UFC pairs people of equivalent skill level, most injuries are prevented because of tapping out, and they do wear gloves,although I’ll admit they are minimal. Now, in your imaginary dojo, none of those safety measures were in place according to your own account, indeed you claim that giving up would have been a failure so people risked serious injury. Nor, apparently were the cultural safeguards of real martial arts in place (courtesy, respect, etc.).

Now you tell us your imaginary dojo doesn’t exist any more (“Um, she’s French, you don’t know her, but she was totally my girlfriend”). Perhaps it went out of business because 90% of the people who enrolled in a class “washed out” after the first month. Hell of a business plan they had themselves there. Scare away the customers! We don’t want their money, we don’t want to teach them anything! Lotsa businesses run on that model, I’m led to understand. Face it, your story is completely ridiculous on its face.

And, tell ya what. If Olympic TKD is “pretty lame” then you can just get your libertarian ass to Colorado Springs and post a youtube of you taking out an Olympian in training. It’ll be a short video since it will only take you a couple seconds. For now the rest of us can judge whether we will believe the most prestigious athletic organization in the world or the fruity blogger who claims he knows all the answers because he learned it at this one school which was really tough and stuff.

Oh, and he would kill everyone if the voice in his head told him too. Why should anyone ever believe anything you say after you said that? Voxy—I’m Jesus and I command you to put on nothing but women’s underwear and cluck like a chicken for a week. If you can do that, I’ll command you to go kill children. If you don’t do that, then you will burn in hell for eternity.

Bush is a socialist. A hard core statist. The government has grown more under Dear Leader’s reign than anyone since LBJ. No Child Left Behind (ohhh, my *&#@ing heart BLEEDS…), Prescription Drug Drunken sailor act, Patriot Act Police Statery, Dept. of Homeland Beaurocracy. But that’s ok, you can vote for another jackbooted thug next time, and everything will be all better. The government is our friend….the government is our friend…

By the way, all of you are breaking the first rule of fight club.

the first rule of fight club.
[struggles to remember]
Don’t Ever Antagonise The Horn?
Oops, that was something else.

Derb: No poofters?

fardels bear, you couldn’t be more of a simpleton. He explains his experience at one place, and you claim it couldn’t have happened because police-certified women’s self-defense doesn’t do the same thing. I love your “if you learned respect and courtesy, you’d never give anyone anything harder than a hug” ideal. And you’re obviously ignorant of reality too:

Perhaps it went out of business because 90% of the people who enrolled in a class “washed out� after the first month. Hell of a business plan they had themselves there. Scare away the customers! We don’t want their money, we don’t want to teach them anything! Lotsa businesses run on that model, I’m led to understand.

Maybe some martial arts schools were founded to teach martial arts instead of just taking money from soft pansies like you by rewarding you with a new belt after every 3 easy payments of $19.99.

I have many disagreements with Vox, but I find it interesting that very few people are actually disputing his arguments, and are instead mocking his haircut. I don’t know much about martial arts, so I have no idea if his claims there are credible, but even if they aren’t, that doesn’t mean he’s wrong about other things.

With regard to thinking Bush is a socialist, Vox (and most other libertarians who make that claim) is working from a 19th century definition of the term. If you pulled a 19th century socialist, or a 19th century liberal, forward to our time, I have no doubt that, after they heard how modern America works, they’d describe our economy as socialist.

If you really wanted to push, you could make an argument that a lot of modern countries are communist. Even in the US, a couple of points in the 10 point program that Marx put forth in the Communist Manifesto have been accomplished, namely, points 2, 5, 9 and 10.

Judging from the comments on this thread, a lot of readers of this blog need to learn what an Argumentum Ad Hominem is, and they might want to read up on Appeals to Emotion, too.

A lot of Vox’s readers need to give those concepts some thought as well.

With regard to the “voice in his head” claims, it was stipulated, when Vox was asked that question, that the voice was a verifiable command from God.

This is a bit different from a random voice in someone’s head.

If you received a command from the voice of God, which you could verify as being the voice of God, I don’t see how you could disobey it. (How,exactly, you could verify that it was the voice of God, I don’t know.)

After all, built into in that little gedankenexperiment is the idea that God exists. If God does exist, especially if he exists as described in the Bible, one had best obey, although you can do what Moses and Abraham did, and try to convince God to change his mind.

I thought the question wasn’t terribly well thought out, but Vox was not asked if he’d go around killing children if a voice in his head claiming to be God told him to do so. He was asked if he would do so if God demanded it, which is a different kettle of of fish.

Look, he’s dead right. America is a Utopia! All the means of production are owned by the government, any right to private property has been eliminated, and all workers enjoy equally of the fruits of the state! God and the Holy Family have been eliminated. All workers have given up nationalist aspersions and give from their ability to those in need.

Will someone help me groom my enormous handlebar moustache?

Nemo Ignotus, you’re wrong. You’re reading what you want to read, because it makes Vox seem like less of a crazed psycho. The question was:

If your god revealed to you in a set of flawless communications you could not dispute that you should kill every child you see under the age of 2, would you?

Vox already believes plenty of stuff about his god, and he was (apparently) convinced by a combination of personal revelation and standard creationist talking points. I’m not bowled over by his hard-headed skepticism.

It doesn’t say “verifiable” in that question, and Vox’s answer only states that he needs to be convinced that it’s really his god talking to him. Given that there are plenty of people who’ve dropped acid or had a schizophrenic break who will swear up and down that god was telling them to do something, that they had had a “set of flawless communications that [they] could not dispute”.

I thought the question wasn’t terribly well thought out, but Vox was not asked if he’d go around killing children if a voice in his head claiming to be God told him to do so.

You’re right. Vox was asked if he’d go around killing children if a voice in his head which Vox believed to be God told him to do so.

Out of curiosity, what are some of these disagreements you have with Vox? It seems that you’re declining to address the points that people have actually made (though you’ve replied to mine, for which I thank you), and instead elected to clutch your pearls and swoon at the fact that people noticed Vox’s hilarious haircut.

Hong Hu Shi: Wrong. I never wrote that. Go back, read what I wrote and if you have something to say to me, I’ll respond.

Nemo Ignotus: Tell ya what: You learn something about modern scholarship on the ad hominem argument and post something on it. Start with the work of Douglas Walton:

http://io.uwinnipeg.ca/~walton/p_and_p.htm

Once you can explain the “circumstantial ad hominem” argument come back and explain to me why my ad hominem argument is fallacious. Until then, keep your second-grade understanding of argument to yourself, the grownups are talking here.

Finally, I thought libertarians were supposed to understand capitalism. Yet, here is Hong Hu Shi explaining to me that a good school is one that doesn’t enroll students. I’d love to shop at Hong Hu Shi’s store, but customers aren’t allowed in.

“A verifiable command from God”?

Verifiable HOW? You get the order from a guy who looks like George Burns, or one who looks like Morgan Freeman? And How would that be different from voices in your head?

It’s a stupid argument, because the order is, by it’s very nature, unverifiable in an objective way, and for someone whose crazy like a Vox, any form of verification for themselves will be sufficient.

Y’know, it’s really too bad that O-Sensei is no longer with us… I’d pay good money to see a match between him and vox.

But your tiger-crane style is too weak! AHAHAHAHAHA!!

The first rule of fight club?

Randy Owens – Derb: No poofters?

Ha! If they banned poofters they probably couldn’t have made that movie at all.

billy pilgrim, Vox didn’t even say verifiable; he just said that he had to be convinced. It’s as bad as it looks.

Vox: give your money to the ACLU and then pick your nose and masturbate at the same time.

Yeah, but the other guy said verifiable. Either way, it’s cracked.

HTML had it pretty much on the button in the OP about VD and his unverifiable-but-oh-so-manly Fight Club: Whether it exists or not, Day just had a grand old time gloating about beating up a woman.

Regardless of the type of martial art, or even mikey’s ElBango, I am not able to see where pride and honor comes from for intentionally injuring someone who you know is weaker and a less experienced fighter than you. Might as well go push over the wheelchairs of incontinent quadraplegic grannies, Vox.

Real or not, as I said above, that’s not a martial art, it’s just a brawl. But it does seem to impress some of Vox’s buddies. Somehow.

I have many disagreements with Vox, but I find it interesting that very few people are actually disputing his arguments, and are instead mocking his haircut. I don’t know much about martial arts, so I have no idea if his claims there are credible, but even if they aren’t, that doesn’t mean he’s wrong about other things.

…

Judging from the comments on this thread, a lot of readers of this blog need to learn what an Argumentum Ad Hominem is, and they might want to read up on Appeals to Emotion, too.

That’s all well and good, but society has rules. Rule One is that you can’t show up looking like a Romulan gay prostitute, bragging about how you kicked the shit out of a woman and not expect to get slapped around for it. Sorry.

grendelkhan,

Okay, I guess “flawless communication” doesn’t mean verifiable. I took flawless to mean that there was no doubt it was actually a communication from God. Perhaps the original stipulator simply meant that the voice didn’t make any grammatical errors. As it was, I thought he was asking Vox how Vox would react to a command that was really coming from God, and that his later objections were rather slippery.

Disagreements I have with Vox..well, for starters, he’s a Southern Baptist, and I’m Catholic. He believes that the Bible is very accurate, I think it’s not. I think evolution is valid and well supported scientific theory1, he doesn’t. I don’t believe that giving women the vote was a bad idea. Nor do I believe that woman are inherently fascists. I don’t harbor suspicions that the US government was involved in planning 9/11, although I do think there were a lot of screwups and a general incompetence that no one has really been held to account for.

I could probably come up with a lot more, if I felt the need.

But I do think that reactions to Vox are generally very illustrative of how swiftly people run to logical fallacies when confronted with ideas they really don’t like and can’t be bothered to think about why they disagree.

Perhaps I am clutching my pearls (a bit of Argumentum Ad Hominem, btw), but I’d think the general fad for logical fallacies is something that should be objected to.

If Vox’s ideas are so easily refuted, people should be refuting them, not making fun of his haircut.

1I once questioned Vox about whether or not he actually takes a full course of antibiotics when he gets that prescribed to him, since the only reason to do that after you feel well is because otherwise, you’ll be spreading bacteria which have evolved greater resistance. His first answer was that he’d follow his doctor’s advice, at which point I asked if he’d follow that advice knowing it was based on evolution. I never got an answer to that.

tb,

Reasoned debate has rules, too.

People can mock Vox for his haircut, or argue that he’s a bully for beating someone in a martial arts match (I’d agree, except that in his account, that other person was well aware of what would happen and was willing to take a beating to prove something).

That’s immaterial to a lot of other things, though.

I get annoyed by reading political blogs. They’re all too often echo chambers filled with logical fallacies which remind one of a certain Orwell essay. (Vox’s blog is hardly free from this, though I will give him credit for acknowledging it, and he is willing to deal in a very calm and reasoned way with others, even people who disagree with him, provided they deal with him in a calm and reasoned way. I had to concede a point to him once, and since then, our exchanges have been civil and respectful. He also seems to have a civil relationship with John Scalzi, who disagrees with him about pretty much everything.)

I’ll flip Karl Marx on his head, the way he and Engels claimed they’d flipped Hegel. History repeats itself, first as farce, then as tragedy. The Usenet politics groups were the farce, political blogs are the tragedy. People should have learned something from Usenet flame wars, but they haven’t.

Some Nineteenth Century Socialist,

Are you sure you’re not a communist or an anarchist? I ask, because what you think has happened seems to reflect their point of view more than, say, that of the Fabians, who were pretty successful at getting their program adopted in a lot of countries.

I once sat through a David Friedman talk where he argued that the difference between most modern conservative and modern liberal parties in advanced industrial countries was that the conservatives thought the amount of socialism we had was just fine, while the liberals thought we needed more. At the time, I disagreed with him, but I’ve come to think he was correct.

I’ve mentioned disagreements I have with Vox, so let me list a point of agreement: I do think we Americans live in a society that 19th century socialists would be pretty happy with, and we have ever since the New Deal. I also think that George W. Bush is the biggest spendthrift we’ve had since LBJ, a man who he resembles in all qualities save lechery. (Vox thought this much earlier than I did, and unlike me, he didn’t vote for Bush in 2000. I’ve voted in Presidential elections since 1992, and 2004 was the first time I didn’t cast a vote for the winner.)

Reasoned debate has rules, too.

Nemo, I don’t think anyone was trying and failing at engaging in “reasoned debate”- they appeared to be mocking Vox for apparently being a sadistic Libertarian freak who says ridiculous things.

I’ve mentioned disagreements I have with Vox, so let me list a point of agreement: I do think we Americans live in a society that 19th century socialists would be pretty happy with, and we have ever since the New Deal.

Nemo Ignotus:

You are very, very wrong on this point. The socialists do not, and did not, want a society where the mercantile class (read: corporations) is in charge of almost the entire social, economic and political culture. They do not want a society where the working class is unable to get good health care, while the upper class has easy access. They do not want a society where the working class often finds that basic civil rights were denied to them by their bosses, and where the working class has little to no recourse about this reality. They pointedly do not, and did not, want the ability of the working class to unionize to be in a sharp decline. They do not, and did not, want a society where the number one factor in your life’s chances is the wealth of your parents. They do not want a society where the politicians are afraid to speak ill of any corporation for fear of having their money taken away and becoming powerless.

The fact that you are saying a 19th-century socialist would seem to give you a lot of leeway, because there were a lot of very different socialist groups in the 19th century- ranging from the Utopian socialists of the 1820s, to the Marxists of the 1860s, to the Bolsheviks, Mensheviks etc. of the 1890s, to the wobblies, etc. But frankly, the socialists were united on basic points, and these points included more equality among the classes, a decrease in the power of the mercantile class, a society with more communal ideals, and and end to inherited wealth. Essentially their beliefs are summed up in the Marxist idea of ‘to each according to their needs, from each according to their ability’. Absolutely every one of these ideals is in a sharp decline in our society, and has been for decades. In every case, Bush has found ways to sharpen the decline.

You can point to the New Deal as an example of some socialist ideas that came into the mainstream of the USA. The two-day weekend is actually due to the socialists as well. But quite frankly, compared to what the socialists actually want in society, and have always wanted, the New Deal was just a laughably miniscule step.

And, Bush’s administration has been trying pretty hard to erase it as well. Have you noticed that he has been attempting to ‘privatize’ Social Security? Have you noticed that Bush is even more anti-union than Reagan was, and has found ways to put anti-union policies into the government itself? Have you noticed that he has attempted to give rich people even more ability to keep their offspring wealth than they had before, with his attempts to get rid of the estate tax? Have you noticed that he has systematically weakened every single part of government that could conceivably check the power of corporations to pollute, to act against their workers, to propagandize in the media, or to monopolize a market?

It is true that there is a resemblance between the corruption, bloating and imperial overstretch of the Soviet government, especially towards the end, and the corruption, bloating and imperial overstretch of Bush’s administration. But the resemblance is not ‘Socialism’, it’s bloated corruption, and imperialism.

Bush is not a socialist. As a member of the hard right, Bush is extremely far from being a Socialist.

atheist,

First, let me totally agree with you on this:

It is true that there is a resemblance between the corruption, bloating and imperial overstretch of the Soviet government, especially towards the end, and the corruption, bloating and imperial overstretch of Bush’s administration. But the resemblance is not ‘Socialism’, it’s bloated corruption, and imperialism.

I’m starting to think that Bush is our Leonid Brezhnev. (Cheney is getting to resemble Chernenko, in attitudes, looks, and general condition of health. it would not surprise me to find out that he has a team of physicians always within reach, just like Chernenko.)

Bush has centralized a lot of things in society, and his “privatization” schemes have been anything but. If his plan to “privatize” social security had gone through, it would have meant a lot more government control over the stock market. He’s also massively increased the size of government.

When it comes to the sector of the economy that revolves around the defense industry (which is already pretty close to a planned economy), Bush has made big strides towards turning it into a state run industry.

It’s true that he’s eroded workers’ rights quite a bit, but that isn’t too different from the Soviet Union, or China, or Cuba, or ,frankly, what the Fabians were pushing.

Bush’s attacks on the estate tax were, in my opinion, akin to his talk about gay marriage. He didn’t do too much about them, but he was able to point to portions of his supporters and pretend he agreed with them. They bought it, and voted for him.

The big difference I see is that a lot of the conditions Bush has exacerbated (but did not create) have benefitted obstensibly private corporations..ones which act, in practice, not too different from the state industries of the past.

I look at the private sector of the US, insofar as it exists outside of government reach (and most of it doesn’t, given various subsidies, loan programs, and a tax code that forces people to do things), and I am reminded of the private plots that Soviet citizens were allowed to keep.

With regard to the access of the poor to health care, I submit to you that it’s better than you think. Bernard Henri Lévy thought that the poor had no coverage at all..and was rather surprised to find out that Medicare and Medicaid exist. (He talked about this is one of his Atlantic Monthly articles describing his American tour.) That 12-year old kid who died of a tooth infection was covered by Medicaid, too, a little tidbit I didn’t see mentioned during the blog brouhaha over his case.

I won’t disagree with you over your characterization of US society. I just think that it’s a result of centralization and government control, which has made it much easier for the rich to tilt the playing field in their direction. (The US government has spent a lot of time, since the beginnings of the last century, regulating the rich. I think they’ve taken over the government, in an instance of regulatory capture.)

I also think, that if you pulled forward a 19th century socialist, they’d look at all the things they wanted accomplished, they’d huzzah and declare socialism triumphant. If you pointed out the things you’ve pointed out to them, they’d shrug it off and blame it on reactionary elements which would vanish in time.

19th century anarchists, on the other hand, would probably agree with you, before going to read a web page written by one of their modern kindred.

I would like to thank you, though, for being civil and quite reasoned.

Nemo Ignotus: I’m so picky about this because Vox keeps claiming he didn’t say what he said.

Okay, I guess “flawless communication� doesn’t mean verifiable. I took flawless to mean that there was no doubt it was actually a communication from God. Perhaps the original stipulator simply meant that the voice didn’t make any grammatical errors. As it was, I thought he was asking Vox how Vox would react to a command that was really coming from God, and that his later objections were rather slippery.

As I had said, the condition boiled down to that Vox believed really hard–that is, that he had no doubt. The question was about a practical situation, or what Vox believes would be a practical situation. Your initial appraisal was correct, but remember, personal experience, personal revelation, isn’t verifiable by anything other than the revelatee’s assurance that he really believes it.

So, in conclusion, don’t sprinkle crumbled-up magic mushrooms on Vox’s morning toast.

I’m half-tempted to begin all future references to him with “Future axe murderer Vox Day has a post up about the dangers of atheism…”

Nemo:

I would like to thank you, though, for being civil and quite reasoned.

You’re welcome.

When it comes to the sector of the economy that revolves around the defense industry (which is already pretty close to a planned economy), Bush has made big strides towards turning it into a state run industry.

Sure, but that is exactly what corporations have always wanted- corporate welfare. People talk about rational economic actors. Well, what could possibly be a more rationally winning strategy than making your corporation tied to a state, and permanently the recipient of that state’s money and protectionism? There’s a reason that corporations lobby government so hard- they want that corporate welfare!

With regard to the access of the poor to health care, I submit to you that it’s better than you think.

Nemo, a very large percent of the people in the USA now, working and not, are uninsured. I forget the exact number- maybe you can find it. That’s a huge group of people who have absolutely no health insurance, and, if they get sick, either wait until things are critical and have to pay huge sums, or go in to a hospital and end up costing the hospital, and in the end the state, money, or just can’t get good care. Sounds pretty bad to me.

I also think, that if you pulled forward a 19th century socialist, they’d look at all the things they wanted accomplished, they’d huzzah and declare socialism triumphant.

Here is where you are just wrong. I mean, a 19th century socialist would probably be wowed by all the cars and the planes and the internet and television, sure. They’d probably be happy that women can vote, and maybe proud to read about the accomplishments of labor in the 20th century. But, if they were smart, they would see that corporations darn near rule this joint, and that corporations are very hostile to everything they had been fighting for. If they were smart, they would also learn about how the labor movement, after building a place for itself in our economy during the first 1/2 of the 20th century, is now being systematically torn to shreds. They would see how weak unions have gotten here, and see how this weakening is not finished. And they would read about how economic inequality has been increasing since the 1970s here.

You seem to see centralization of economy as being the essence of socialism. It isn’t. Socialist economies have tended to centralize their economies, it is true. But they did it for a reason- there is a kernel of belief in socialism. I hate to keep repeating, but it’s “to each according to their needs, from each according to their abilities”. And Bush’s policies have been radically opposed to this. That is why he’s nothing like a socialist.