I’ll tell you why. Because (it seems many of) your readers happen to be fat and they are very sensitive about it. It’s PERSONAL, man. Dropping bombs on tens of thousands of people halfway across the world is impersonal.

And you thought you were ahead with the celery.

HTML et al.:

It’s touching that you’re responding to people justifiably taking offense at fat jokes. You’ve apologized. Now it would probably not be a good idea to do it again.

However, y’all can’t expect everyone to accept your apology. Not when your past posts continue to provide an opportunity for others to feel morally superior to you.

So rather than calling in the dangeral analysis, how’s about you just move on and provide us with a bit more of teh (fat-joke-free) funny?

And while you’re at it how about a PREVIEW BUTTON?

I ATE THE PREVIEW BUTTON!

[burp]

Finally, why on fucking earth do some people feel that ‘telling’ two — TWO! — fat jokes, evar, is, in moral egregiousness, similar, comparable to, or even worse than the advocation of genocidal policies and torture?

[sigh] Because they don’t:

And I agree with you! It’s two jokes. (Which is why I was surprised to be described as “angry� and cetera.

It’s just this: please don’t do it again. That’s all.

Call me an obsessive nerd, because I totally am, but I read hell out of that thread, and Clarke’s the only commenter who even came close to implying any comparison, and he’s many times since bent over backwards to explain that actually, no; no one is comparing you to, or equating you with, a genocidal wingnut. Just as I’ve tried to explain that, and most of the commenters at Feministe have tried to explain that, and, guh! I’m out of tricks here.

At this point, the originally-offended are doing more handholding and there-there-ing of your feelings than anyone, fat or otherwise, has asked you to do for them. I mean, did I miss the petition to blacklist Sadly, No! or label it Most Insensitive Blog Evar? The picket lines, the protestors bearing “Down w/HTML” and “Fatly, No!” placards? I slept through all that, really?

Comment?

Prediction: He backs up Clarke. But we’ll see, I guess.

Baudelaire also called all of his readers hypocrites. Good choice, I guess, for the apologetics, as it were.

And while you’re at it how about a PREVIEW BUTTON?

Hey don’t bring me into this!

Um, don’t they see something funny in an unenlisted cheeto-gorger who would never pass the physical for the army – not that he would ever want to – cheerleading torture and genocide? There’s definitely something ridicule-worthy in that. These assholes deserve it all. Really, they more than deserve it.

Please Mom and Dad! Don’t fight!!!

I had a comment marked spam…

I am sad now.

For real, lesley, I mean fat people as people? That’s just messed up! Why argue against his position when you can argue against teh lipids?! Crazy talk!

High five, everyone!

For real, Lesley. I mean, why worry about other fat people who agree with you who might be offended by the joke when teh lipids are so easy to mock?! Crazy talk! The jokes write themselves, guys! It was a slow day! Whatever the reason, remember how everything else is Hitler compared to us? Yeah, let’s all remember that and never forget it.

The clear implication is that being fat–rather than any of the truly noisome qualities embodied by ab Hugh–is disgusting.

That’s funny. I see to remember ab Hugh being ridiculed for his ridiculous assertions.

all me an obsessive nerd, because I totally am, but I read hell out of that thread, and Clarke’s the only commenter who even came close to implying any comparison, and he’s many times since bent over backwards to explain that actually, no; no one is comparing you to, or equating you with, a genocidal wingnut. Just as I’ve tried to explain that, and most of the commenters at Feministe have tried to explain that, and, guh! I’m out of tricks here.

GAAAAAAH! But that’s what the whole fucking thing was about! Ampersand did exactly that and admitted he was wrong for it. *That’s* all I was ever upset about, until piny tried to ignore my point and everyone there piled on.

Over and over I’ve said: ‘If you object to fat jokes, I have no problem with that’. It’s *how* you argue it. Piny didn’t do it right. Clarke did and didn’t do it right.

And you thought you were ahead with the celery.

Oh, no. They were ahead with lettuce; they were stalking us with the celery.

Evidently, its time for the adults to intervene.

Perhaps in the future you could ridicule fatheads instead of fat bodies. No one will complain about that.

haha

I think kingubu just won the thread.

Oh, no. They were ahead with lettuce; they were stalking us with the celery.

Uh, “Woot!”

Sorry for the multiple posts. I figured that Akismet would let up…

Uh, “Woot!�

No! Don’t encourage the vegetable puns! I’m rutabaga’n you to stop!

can we embed youtube movies in sadlyno comment threads now or did kingubu have help?

No! Don’t encourage the vegetable puns! I’m rutabaga’n you to stop!

Um, baby, that’s how I escarole.

can we embed youtube movies in sadlyno comment threads now or did kingubu have help?

Ummm… we’ll see…

can we embed youtube movies in sadlyno comment threads now or did kingubu have help?

Arcane wisdom possessed only by Teh Fatties. We have a handshake, too. And fezzes! See what you’re missing?

[slips Gavin a $20 under the blogroll]

anyone remember an old comedy sketch about the fruit and vegetable races?

Rock! I’m an honorary Fatty! Do I get a fez?

I think it was an Austrian who said all zat stuff about ze humor.

If you carrot all for me, you will stop the puns! 🙂

Feministe’s logo offends men, who like me, were once boys who were terrorized by girls brandishing pump-action shotguns.

And every time I stumble across Pandagon’s logo, I’m reminded that I’m an overweight, slovenly alcoholic. Why must these feminists be so insensitive? Don’t they realize that they insult and ultimately drive away many fellow progressives who have suffered terror at the hands of loaded lasses and drown their residual fears in cheap canned beer?

I’m so offended, I think HTML should walk to the edge of a cliff, endive.

I’m all out of twenties and on a shit list, so no embedding for me 🙁

I’m so offended, I think HTML should walk to the edge of a cliff, endive.

So you turnip your nose at him?

Ok. When people poke fun, whisper, giggle and tell fat jokes because I have a huge, fat neck and a lump on my upper back and a gut thanks to lipodystrophy from my HAART regimen, it’s not comparable to genocide or physical torture. That’s not an argument I’ve really seen in any of this.

But the punchline for fat jokes doesn’t stop with just the person it’s directed at. Because it’s Ok to ridicule people simply because they’re fat it never ends. Spend a few years wondering daily if it’s worth keeping up with HAART and living another ten or twenty years just to get stares and laughs and whispers most every time you leave the house. Do that then tell me how it’s not painful for someone to take shots at you simply because of the way you look and not because of the way you’ve mistreated them or others or advocate shitty politics. Sure, no one’s locking me up and torturing me. I’m the one locking myself away because, you know, fat people…they’re fuckin’ walking comedy…fair game…don’t stop and wonder why…everyone jokes about big fatasses.

Does being a progressive mean we have to accept that “healthy at any weight” stuff? Because I am not up for that.

It’s more about being a rhubarb…

[hugs PZ1]

PZ1, lipodystrophy is not in any way equivalent to being a bellicose warmonger who accuses others of cowardice for not ‘having a military background,’ even though he wouldn’t, himself, be admitted to boot camp.

It’s not the same, and no jokes here are ever about you, ok?

OK, now this is getting ridiculous. It was a goddamn photoshop joke, and a funny photoshop joke at that. This is a comedy web site where people come to hate on wingnuts. This site is not about taking the high road or even about building some sort of progressive majority. This is a place where we all come to feel better through laughter, and seeing Daffyd Ab Hugh with a six-foot Italian sub photoshopped in his outstretched hands made me feel better for a few seconds. Don’t take that away from me.

There are plenty of other nice blogs out there who will never make fat jokes and will provide nice, bland, politically correct progressive Kumbaya hippie shit for those who were so horrified by a Photoshop sandwich. I personally like it when Sadly, No is down and dirty.

GAAAAAAH! But that’s what the whole fucking thing was about! Ampersand did exactly that and admitted he was wrong for it.

I agree with that, and I apologize for confusing you with Sadly, No! Investor Services (Gavin? Was that you?), which I think I did early on (unless you were SNIS, in which case . . . hmm). Anyway, SNIS was certainly going other places with the whole thing besides “Ampersand’s blogroll policy is stupid,” places like “You’re all a bunch of silly nitwits to get upset about this,” which you can bet I’ll remember the next time anyone here devotes so much as a pixel to shooting fish in a barrel–I mean, fisking Pastor Swank columns.

*That’s* all I was ever upset about, until piny tried to ignore my point and everyone there piled on.

That’s because that’s all it was ever about for you, and given that, I can understand why you’d be pissed off. Doesn’t mean there wasn’t more going on for piny, who was trying to look at the [cough] larger issue, because that’s what Feministe does. They cover stuff that doesn’t make it here and vice versa. I like both blogs; I just don’t like being painted a hypersensitive, CNN-deprived, serious-perspective-lacking, fat bitch for liking both blogs (which I don’t think you’ve personally done, but see above about SNIS).

Excerpted comments from others here make up a good deal of piny’s post, actually, so I don’t find it contradictory to agree both with you that Amp was wrongheaded, and with piny that there sure was a lot of fat-bashing going on at Sadly, No! yesterday (gracias a Lesley particularmente). Fair enough?

I was just reading that thread at Feministe, and, wow, the participants in that dustuparsnippy. Effenn-‘ell.

Next time don’t photoshop. Call for captions.

Next time don’t photoshop. Call for captions.

Hrmph. Your spam filter keeps telling me something about how I’m ham. Gavin, HTML, are you trying to tell me something?

Doesn’t mean there wasn’t more going on for piny, who was trying to look at the [cough] larger issue, because that’s what Feministe does.

Then he should have honestly accounted for the Ampersand issue, instead of doing what he did, which was use it for an excuse to complain about the original photoshop — and as for that, well, it is my opinion that the original photoshop is not an egregious moral crime. I disagree with those who think it is. But again, the point was Ampersand, who implied it was such a crime that it was beneath Trevino and Volokh’s collected depravities. One I agree to disagree about, the other I will get *angry* about. And when I have to deal with a clusterfuck argument of both kinds, I get really exasperated.

Ehhh.
Not SN!’s finest moment.
Reminds me of the great cunt debate. Ahh, it was fun being called a misogynist, and being told I should lie to women to get laid by someone who was telling me I don’t respect women. Especially considering the who’s who of it all. AA and people who’d been accusing me of being her sockpuppet both tellin me the same. Anyway

The fat joke didn’t deserve this much attention, or any outrage, but, to be fair, it wasn’t that funny.

I was just reading that thread at Feministe, and, wow, the participants in that dustuparsnippy. Effenn-’ell.

Jicama scared!

Oregano’ll take another look…

I like both blogs… I wish they would make up.

If I were a smarter man, I could have said that with a vegetable pun. :/

Reminds me of the great cunt debate.

Ha! I remember something like that.

and as for that, well, it is my opinion that the original photoshop is not an egregious moral crime.

I shouldn’t say this, but there are, uh, lots of draft P-shop pictures that we don’t use, that are even tastelesser.

I mean, if we’re being accused of having no sensitivity, there’s certainly a treasured distance before rock-bottom.

To be fair the fattening up of the celery makes daffyd appear slimmer. But where’s the gratitude!

I’m still not apologizing for my judgements of Obese America. Someday a pin’s going to pop the balloon. Or a mint.

For god’s sake, somebody make a poop joke.

I like both blogs… I wish they would make up.

Are you asking for peas and hominy among the blogs?

I made some peas for dinner. They had the delicious taste of pea-ness.

Won’t somebody please think of the skinny people for once? They *are* the minority, after all, and as such are entitled to take a certain amount of rhetorical liberty with their weighty oppressors. Who’s being judged unfairly here? I’ll tell you who, it’s those people who would dare to flaunt their healthy lifestyle choices in the face of overwhelming societal pressure to amass girth.

I just want to go on record saying I love this site exactly the way it is now and it’d be a shame if you had to start censoring yourselves.

Poop: it’s what’s for dinner.

I shouldn’t say this, but there are, uh, lots of draft P-shop pictures that we don’t use, that are even tastelesser.

If you’ve never put “Kiss the AIDS cook” onto an apron worn by Fred Savage, you have a long way to fall yet.

I just want to go on record saying I love this site exactly the way it is now and it’d be a shame if you had to start censoring yourselves.

I am so tempted to embed some stuff from the draft Photoshop folder.

No, the real danger is that we’ll do something titanically awful one of these days, and really be sorry about it…

Gavin has a good point in that thread, tho.
Penis jokes?
Just fine. If a guy gets offended, well, let’s be racist and say he’s gotta be white, right?
Fat jokes?
Or use of the word cunt?
Over the limit.

I have to watch what I say about the precious flab or risk being shunned. Oh wait, I am being shunned and made to feel ashamed for saying excess consumption of mass produced fatty crud (that causes cancer, heart disease, diabetes, and likely Alzheimers) is not only dumb but almost entirely the responsibility of the consumer. Just wait til the overindulged SUV-driving masses have to give up their precious cars and other toys for the good of the planet and then you’ll really hear some bitching.

Jesus.
Maybe you’re being an insensitive asshole, Lesley?
You are very protective of your sensibilities, and give people lots of shit if they say something that offends you, but arrogantly dismiss any concerns you don’t share.
You’re gonna get shit for that, and you deserve it.

Are you asking for peas and hominy among the blogs?

Marita sooo wins this round! 🙂

There, I contributed something meaningful to that thread. Although, upon reflection, it looks like I botched a sentence. *dies*

This is why the world despises America. You’re completely fucking DAFT.

This is why the world despises America. You’re completely fucking DAFT.

This might be the wrong time to mention that this is a Canadian blog.

I’m having one of those can’t-win days.

After much consideration, I’ve decided that feministe are right. Snark should target the meme itself, not its corpulent host. So, are you going to photoshop of Dafydd with that shit-smeared broom handle now? I’m sure everyone will get some giggles out of that.

(I swear I was happy and normal once… really I was)

How do people seriously equate weight with sexual orientation or race anyway? I’m not saying it’s ok to make fun of fat people, but a fat joke is not nearly on the same level as a racist or homophobic joke.

Wait.
Presuming that was in some part a response to me,
the world despises America because we go around asking people to be considerate of the sensibilities of others?
Somehow, I don’t think that’s it…

Just wait til the overindulged SUV-driving masses have to give up their precious cars and other toys for the good of the planet and then you’ll really hear some bitching

If ya’ll knew what was good for you, you’d do it voluntarily. I want to get a shirt that says: “roll over… roll over… good SUV!” Heartless, I know, but you gotta warn people somehow.

Uh, I was reacting to adifferentbrad and flew off the handle – sick of that PC bullshit.

Most of your readers are Americans, no?

This is why the world despises America. You’re completely fucking DAFT.

Ha! It’s actually mal de mer!

the world despises America because we go around asking people to be considerate of the sensibilities of others?

The nation that elected Bush and Cheney… come again?

We did once, and it’s a terrible stain on our nation’s history. But even in 04, BushCo. got what, 53 million votes out of 300 million people in the nation?
And had to use voter fraud in Ohio, at least, to do it?
And considering all the good people here who are American, you’re still gonna say that?

I feel I should paste mine and Ilyka’s exchange over there where pliny has cranked up the mendacious whining. But nah.. why bother.

Ok. When people poke fun, whisper, giggle and tell fat jokes because I have a huge, fat neck and a lump on my upper back and a gut thanks to lipodystrophy from my HAART regimen, it’s not comparable to genocide or physical torture. That’s not an argument I’ve really seen in any of this.

Well yeah. I too have noticed that argument not being made.

I made some peas for dinner

All I am saying,
Is give peas a chance.

Bring on all your defenses of America the Civilizer. I’m dying to hear this.

And a stain on world history, and the lives of countless.. millions, at least, by now, of course.

wtf?
Where did that come from?
I…. huh?

I too have noticed that argument not being made.

Wow, really? On that last thread you commented on? In the post itself? On — hint, hint — Ampersand’s site?

Fucking hell.

this little shred of elitism, adifferentbrad
he world despises America because we go around asking people to be considerate of the sensibilities of others?

We, America, the example to the rest of the world. Ugh.

Where did that come from?
I…. huh?

No, really, I’m pretty sure this is mal de mer. Nearly the same style. I mean, people call me anti-American all the time, because I think that a state that sells arms, funds genocide, murders natives, etc. is worthy of criticism even though I live in it.

Some people, though, like mal de mer/Lesley here, are literally anti-American, in that they consider Americans as individuals to universally be scum worthy of derision. That is, they’re anti-American in the same way Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler is anti-Iranian.

HTML Mencken said,
March 1, 2007 at 8:55

Fucking hell.

Wha? Are you suggesting that I did not argue that’s not an argument I’ve really seen in any of this?

I was going to seethe a kid in its mother’s milk for dinner, but now I’m worrying about the calories. AND the glycemic index.

Lesley, you enormous idiot, you’re leaving out the key part of the exchange.

You: This is why the world despises America. You’re completely fucking DAFT.

brad: Presuming that was in some part a response to me,
the world despises America because we go around asking people to be considerate of the sensibilities of others?
Somehow, I don’t think that’s it…

Now put your goddamn cock away and go find somewhere else to piss.

Well, now look.

If fat jokes are off limits, the puns need to be off limits too.

I mean, let’s be civilized here.

Many Americans are completely identified with America. I have trouble liking such people, yes. Nowhere did I say I despised Americans. But see, even though I said “America” you’re taking offense because you are an American.

Okay, so if we can’t make jokes about whether Daffy ab Hooey is fat, can we still say that he looks ridiculous in stained gray sweatpants? I mean its not like he was forced to wear them by genetics or anything.

Another question: does this also mean that we can’t accuse quintuple-x sized clerics like Falwell of hypocrisy when they spout of Bible verses condemning gays and what not but conveniently forget all the biblical stuff about gluttony?

Just wondering.

bjur, that’s because adifferentbrad identified himself as “we, America.” I was poking fun at his continental ass.

I mean, let’s be civilized here.

Fuck do we have to?

Clif: No, because gluttony’s not an abomination. Unless you got that way through an exclusive diet of shellfish and goats boiled in their mother’s milk. In which case, yes.

Thank you, Djur. To be clear for Lesley’s sake, I was not saying Americans go around being nice. I was saying quite the opposite.

Now, to try and lighten this shit up…

A one… two– A one… two… three… four…
Half a bee, philosophically,
Must, ipso facto, half not be.
But half the bee has got to be
Vis a vis, its entity. D’you see?

But can a bee be said to be
Or not to be an entire bee
When half the bee is not a bee
Due to some ancient injury?

Singing…

La dee dee, one two three,
Eric the half a bee.
A B C D E F G,
Eric the half a bee.

Is this wretched demi-bee,
Half-asleep upon my knee,
Some freak from a menagerie?
No! It’s Eric the half a bee!

Fiddle de dum, Fiddle de dee,
Eric the half a bee.
Ho ho ho, tee hee hee,
Eric the half a bee.

I love this hive, employee-ee,
Bisected accidentally,
One summer afternoon by me,
I love him carnally.

He loves him carnally,
Semi-carnally.
The end.

Cyril Connelly?
No; semi-carnally!
Oh.

Cyril Connelly.
[whistling]

Clif — What, are you insane? Of course that’s off limits! Why, for even thinking about such a thing, you’re acting just as bad as a wingnut. I hope you die and burn in hell, fat-hater!

Clif — What, are you insane? Of course that’s off limits! Why, for even thinking about such a thing, you’re acting just as bad as a wingnut. I hope you die and burn in hell, fat-hater!

Mencken, I’m not saying you’re worse than an eliminationist wingnut, I’m saying you’re as bad as one.

Clif-hater! Hater of Clif!

Jeezis, I got a big ole beer gut and I thought the sandwich was mildly funny. What isn’t funny is the asshole making some of the comments that they are quoting over there posted by some asshole last night. Being a mean, uncompassionate person is bad. I don’t see that here on the part of HTML.

He said he was sorry. Did anyone ever say their making fun of Michael Moore or Al Gore was wrong and they were sorry. NO. Lighten the fuck up.

I don’t personally go in for all the cunts and cocksuckers I see dropped all the time other places but I don’t start denouncing the hosts of the blogs either.

These wingnut bastarts are the problem. Not Sadly,NO.. FuckFuck Fuckl;.;/

I’m still not clear on the golden rule. Under what conditions is it ok to include celery or horking subs in a portrait? (let’s face it, you really don’t have to use photoshop with most of ’em)

Well, after being away for a few hours I see we’ve been reduced to eating our own here. WTF is wrong with you people – I thought we were on the “same” side? This is why the Celts were conquered – too busy squabbling over tribal crap and then rolled over by the Romans. There are WAY more important things we could be talkng about and too many wingnuts out there to make fun of. For fuck’s sake – can we please move on?

I should have stopped this care a long time ago and sent you all to bed without your dinner!

‘car’ – PREVIEW BUTTON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is why the Celts were conquered – too busy squabbling over tribal crap and then rolled over by the Romans.

Muahaha! But we will rise again.

(Er, don’t tell anyone I’m actually Jewish, ok?)

Lesley, you were too busy talking about fat people in the other thread, when Art Frahm kept coming up.

If you had followed the links, you would have found the answer to at least one of your questions:

Celery may, indeed MUST, be used in any picture that shows a woman with her underpants falling down around her ankles.

Unfortunately, the links take you to Lileks, so I understand if you don’t follow them.

HTML Mencken:

I like your style.

I took a look at the Feministe post and couldn’t find a single quote of mine (for all the blame I received today and yesterday for my judgements about the fast food nation). If there is one there, I couldn’t find it. Maybe it’s in the comment section.

Maybe I am an insensitive shithead and blind as a bat for not perceiving my comments the way you all seem to be perceiving them. I’m truly sorry if I deeply offended anyone, but I since I still can’t see how I could have, that doesn’t mean squat does it? I’m not going to apologize for thinking ill of poor eating habits. To do so would make me a complete fool.

If you have a chance, do read Fast Food Nation (it addresses much more than the fast food industry) and Diet for a New America (by the guy who rejected his Baskin-Robbins inheritance) and have a peek at madcowboy.com (the cattle farmer who rejected modern farming practices). I hope you won’t take what they say personally, although they hate what excess fat does to people, too. Those authors, among others, helped me to take charge of my own health, and I’ll be eternally grateful for it.

Yes, yes. You just care about us poor little slobs. How white of you.

Maybe the part where you declared fatness to be objectively unattractive managed to irritate people just a bit. And how you responded to each and every critic by accusing them of being fat and being embarrassed about it, and furthermore for suggesting that they’re just too damn stupid to absorb the constant message of “LOSE SOME WEIGHT, FATTY” that forms a cornerstone of our society. Perhaps there’s also the parts in which you categorically denied that there is any biological cause for overweight other than just shoveling cupcakes down like so many fat jizzy dicks.

Yeah, I think that may be a small part of it.

I’d like to also take this time to say that I didn’t enter this discussion for any reason related to the sandwich incident. Hell, I thought it was funny enough, and the celery was even better. Retardo Mencken’s point about Amp’s blogroll was pretty good, too.

Sadly No is right and Feministe is wrong. To sum up.

No, Kathleen. Honestly, it’s less an issue of the original criticism, which was justifiably mild, than of the enormous shitfit that’s arisen from it. Both sides have said or suggested significantly worse things in this argument than the actual original issue.

Lesley, I’m letting you off easy – me: vegetarian (no, I don’t overindluge on carbs), overweight, formerly anorexic, chronic long term health/immune system problems, former fitness trainer (AFTER I became overweght mind, I just traded fat for muscle but never lost any substantial weight), genetic predisposition to Type II Diabetes, and (trump card) turmor on my pituitary gland which seems to play hell with my metabolism.
But please, do generalize about all overweight people.

Sorry but it’s hard not to be offended by your comments.

Now, can we all get back to bashing the wingnuts?

Oy.
Y’know, I’d almost assume everyone here has read Fast Food Nation, instead of recommending it. I mean, we’re a fairly literate crowd, and it’s pretty damn far from an obscure title.
I read it, and I don’t remember the author getting angry at the people who didn’t know how to get out of the processed crap/high fructose corn syrup chainlock.
I also remember him saying he still, albeit very rarely, goes to a fast food place now and then.

celticgirl, you’re kidding me, right? You’ve listed a whole lot of conditions that relate to behaviours, including type two D.

I’m now at the point where I’m wondering which purgatory would be worse: Gitmo or a liberal PC reeducation camp.

adifferentbrad. I’m not “angry” at obese people.

Lesley:

For the little it may be worth, I understood your point.

Suggesting a book makes me an elitist. Sorry, but you folks take the cake on elitism. oops, I said cake. how insensitive of me.

Alright, fair’s fair, I shouldn’t say you are. You just think “tough love” is the answer in all cases, feelings be damned. It’s nice you conquered your midlfe extra 15 pounds, but that doesn’t mean you’ve beeeeeeeeeeeen there, man. I was in Nam, I saw people MELT, maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan.

*apologies to mikey*

I’m sorry, a tbrain umor is a behavior? Genetic predisposition to an illness is a behavior? A chronic illness is a behavior? EVen my doctors are more generous than you are. What about my genetically deaf daughter – is that her choice? What about my son who has autism? His choice? No, I’m afraid we’re talking bad gene pool here. Some people just don’t get it I guess.

I’m speechless.

I seem to recall a time, like, almost four months ago, when piny, zuzu, and co were down with the cruel photoshopping…

The comments on the feministe thread are enough to give any reasonable person a migraine. I cannot believe any regular reader of SadlyNo (like Chris Clarke, to name one) believes for a second its authors are bullying insensitive creeps on a par with Malkin and Coulter, to name two extremely creepy wingnuts. Even when the SN humour is juvenile, it’s right up there with Python and bloody brilliant. I’m grateful it’s free.

What I find here helps me cope with the madness of King George and his gluttonous corporate pals and the very real cruelty they inflict on a daily basis.

Sometimes I can’t even laugh at the funnies here I get so depressed and upset thinking about what’s going on. I hope they don’t change.

Djur said

Maybe the part where you declared fatness to be objectively unattractive managed to irritate people just a bit. And how you responded to each and every critic by accusing them of being fat and being embarrassed about it,

In all fairness to Lesley, pretty sure she was responsible for the ‘unattractive’ bit and i was the one suggesting embarassment. Seriously, if youre not embarrased by your weight then why argue?

and furthermore for suggesting that they’re just too damn stupid to absorb the constant message of “LOSE SOME WEIGHT, FATTY� that forms a cornerstone of our society.

See again, in all fairness, you are over-reacting. Pretty sure she was saying GAIN WEIGHT FATTY was the cornerstone of american society.

Perhaps there’s also the parts in which you categorically denied that there is any biological cause for overweight other than just shoveling cupcakes down like so many fat jizzy dicks.

Again, the ‘biological cause for overweight’ only really works if you are, say, Samoan. It really doesn’t apply for the average American.

But to get back on track, has anyone else noticed that Scientologists and Mormons and SDAs are rarely overweight while Presbyterians and Methodists are invariably obese? Is there a correlation between newer religions and older visa vee fatness?

You just think “tough love� is the answer in all cases, feelings be damned.

Oh, not in all cases–just in the cases she doesn’t personally struggle with. I’m sure if Darleen had a thyroid problem or a debilitating joint disorder, we’d be hearing a different tune from her about this.

Did I just call her Darleen? Huh. Weird! It’s as though I were confusing her with that one woman who hangs out PW, encouraging guys in holes to keep right on digging and reminding them that she, at least, will always love them–that their bravery in the face of emasculating political correctness only fans the flames of her ardor.

I don’t know why that came to mind all of a sudden.

celtic girl, in the future I’m not going to bother responding because you can’t be bothered to read my responses to you. Anorexia is very much behavioural. Type Two Diabetes is both brought on and controlled by behaviour. Sorry I didn’t spell it out for you. I don’t know what causes brain tumours. But I do know some cancers develop as a result of behaviours. Look, my mom died from cancer and hers was all caused by behaviour. I love her, ok? Very much. It was still caused by behaviour. She knew it. Her doctors warned her. This fact didn’t (and doesn’t) detract from my love and compassion for her.

I’m sorry you’re suffering.

Djur said,

No, Kathleen. Honestly, it’s less an issue of the original criticism, which was justifiably mild, than of the enormous shitfit that’s arisen from it. Both sides have said or suggested significantly worse things in this argument than the actual original issue.

I appreciate the effort to be nuanced, but I actually spent waaaay too much time wading through all sets of comments, and I am going to have to stick with my summation. Sadly No is right and Feministe is wrong.

“Seriously, if youre not embarrased by your weight then why argue?”

Actually, I’d imagine that people who are embarrassed by their weight would be less likely to argue. Really, it shouldn’t take you long to figure out why someone might be compelled to respond to insults. You’re a smart boy.

ilyka: Right on. Apparently explaining to someone that one finds it insulting to be called objectively unattractive, lazy, ignorant, etc. based on a physical trait is on par with putting men in tiny cages for the crime of being swarthy Mooselmen.

Ah, Darleeen … a much more interesteing ‘case study’ …

I’m sure if Darleen had a thyroid problem or a debilitating joint disorder, we’d be hearing a different tune from her about this.

If you meant me, in fact I do have mild hypothyroidism (like many other women) and arthritis in my cervical spine (due to a couple of car accidents and a fall down some stairs). The hypothyroidism is aggravated by excessive consumption of sugar and I find I can control it. I was told that the pain of arthritis is mostly caused by inflammation and scar tissue which I’m seeing someone to control. It’s helping.

So you want to try something else?

Ok, Ilyka, that’s too fucking much.

I’m not saying I agree with everything Lesley says, but she expressly related her own dietary issues as well as her mother’s cancer. So the ‘easy for her to say’ card doesn’t work. Try another. And shitcan the Darleen & PW references like, now.

celticgirl said,

I’m speechless.

Now youve gone too far. My second cousin is speechless and i absolutely wont hear any criticism of him. You fuckers, he cant even speak! Do you know how this hurts me? Do you have any understanding of how his speechlessness must impact me? And did I mention that I have a sore foot? I have to walk to the subway station every day and people look at me funny because i limp. I’m a victim. Oh and I know some people who have a retard son. Whatever you do, dont make fun of Downs Syndrome kids cuz they might be reading this blog.

Jeez, [HTML Menken’s real name] nice work with the fat joke.

Lesley, I’m glad you refuse to respond to me because I suppose to engage with me on the NON BEHAVIORAL issues would weaken your argument. Maybe-just maybe-not everybody brings cancer or brain tumors on themselves (hey, there’s a novel thought!) As ilyka said, if you were dealing with this first hand you would STFU-self rightousness isn’t a pretty thing. And BTW, I’m not suffering – wrong assumption (but then you seem to make a lot of those). I only have to suffer fools like you.

GAH! The only thing that’s missing in this thread is AA telling me I’m going to hell!

And shitcan Darleen & PW

Much better.

Lesley, you don’t have to apologize for what you believe. Only weak, pathetic people apologize for what they believe. That doesn’t mean other people have to be nice to you about it. I’d suggest you get thicker skin if you’re going to be so vocal about things that matter to people.

Also, as I just said in the Feministe comment section, some of us don’t agree on this as a moral issue. While that doesn’t make either or both of us right, it does mean neither side is going to actually care what the other side says about this. Some people here clearly believe weight is in the same category as ethnicity, religion, sexual preference and gender. Some of us do not.

This is a fat country, people are touchy about it, so they make up shit to make themselves feel more secure. It’s cognitive dissonance. They know being overweight tends to lead to health problems, but they don’t want to believe them. So people like ampersand come along and tell them it’s all a big bad medical conspiracy and they decide to believe it. A shit load of anorexic people go to all sorts of websites to tell them that that’s healthy too. I doubt it matters though, they aren’t hurting anyone but themselves.

Highest – fuck off. I have a “retard” son and funnily, Retardo’s name never offended me. You, however do.

Funny, that.

Myabe, celticgirl, that’s because anyone who can scare the bejeeezus out of Goldstein must have his ‘heart’ in the right place.

I repeat, I cannot believe any regular reader of SadlyNo believes for a second its authors are bullying insensitive creeps on a par with Malkin and Coulter, to name two extremely creepy wingnuts. Even when the SN humour is juvenile, it’s right up there with Python and bloody brilliant. I’m grateful it’s free.

Evidently, however, there are those who would support SadlyNo’s wingnutfat mockery and still hate me for judging gluttonous behaviour. I repeat, judging gluttonous behaviour, not your kid’s deafness, not your kid’s autism, not your brain tumour, but maybe yes, your anorexia (though you have my sympathy) and your type two diabetes which is has only recently become an epidemic in America and not because UFOs blasted you with mysterious rays.

I repeat, what I find here helps me cope with the madness of King George and his gluttonous corporate pals and the very real cruelty they inflict on a daily basis. Chris Clarke’s blog is lovely and stunning and his writing is breathtaking. He isn’t a humourist, he doesn’t make me laugh. When his dog died I cried buckets and I don’t even know his dog.

I need his blog. I need this blog. I have no gift for humour or snark. I rely on brilliant people to deliver me from my daily torments.

Ok, what was I trying to get to? Oh yeah, I’m trying to figure out the folks who on the one hand are fine with skewering the wingnut fat, but so not fine with skewering gluttony in general. That I’m not understanding.

Sometimes I can’t even laugh at the funnies here I get so depressed and upset thinking about what’s going on. I hope they don’t change.

Lesley, you don’t have to apologize for what you believe. Only weak, pathetic people apologize for what they believe. That doesn’t mean other people have to be nice to you about it. I’d suggest you get thicker skin if you’re going to be so vocal about things that matter to people.

What makes you think I don’t have thick skin? I’d say my skin’s pretty thick by this point. If it wasn’t I’d be grovelling.

Wait, are you making fun of my skin? How dare you!

Djur said,
March 1, 2007 at 10:55

Actually, I’d imagine that people who are embarrassed by their weight would be less likely to argue. Really, it shouldn’t take you long to figure out why someone might be compelled to respond to insults. You’re a smart boy.

See, Im not embarassed being a smart boy. My point exactly.

celtic girl, it sounds like you’re going through a lot and I sincerely hope you get well soon. I really mean that.

celticgirl said,
March 1, 2007 at 11:04

Highest – fuck off. I have a “retardâ€? son and funnily, Retardo’s name never offended me. You, however do.

I might have a brain tumour. You suck for not respecting me.

Lesley, learn to read. I DON’T have Type II Diabetes. I’m not suffering.

Wingnuts? AA? Going to hell?

God, anything would be better than this thread. Please let it die!

oh. you mentioned you have a genetic predisposition to type two diabetes, and usually this isn’t discovered until one suffers from it or is diagnosed with it.

This looks like a job for the Internet Coroner.
I now declare this thread dead.

WHAAAAAA!!!!!

First of all 3B did ALL the vegetable puns, second of all, we already did works of literature as Pork, and finally C) I super heart everyone. I love ID, M, G, and HTML. Clif is beyond the pale, and I embrace Clif eliminationalism.

Just kidding, Clif is my super homey and I would crap on your head from 1000 feet in the air if you besmirch Clif.

celticgirl said,March 1, 2007 at 10:16

Lesley, I’m letting you off easy – me: vegetarian (no, I don’t overindluge on carbs), overweight, formerly anorexic, chronic long term health/immune system problems, former fitness trainer (AFTER I became overweght mind, I just traded fat for muscle but never lost any substantial weight), genetic predisposition to Type II Diabetes, and (trump card) turmor on my pituitary gland which seems to play hell with my metabolism.

Yep, no suffering here.

No Lesley honey, people in my family have DIED from the complications of Type II. That’s how I know.

I now understand why RD Laing jumped up and down and screamed at the end of a day’s work. Turns out the “normal” family members were crazy and the patients were sane.

Going to bed.

And so another episode of “The Morally Superior” draws to a close…

Celticgirl, you’re going to Hell.

😛

But seriously people, stop fighting. Let’s all hold hands and sing something.

First of all 3B did ALL the vegetable puns

Lies! I was the first to do ALL the vegetable puns.

you do love to martyr yourself Lesley. If your skin’s as thick as you claim, you wouldn’t keep screaming that the PC Fat Police were coming to get you anytime someone made a reasonable point or criticized you for talking rubbish. If you talk out of your arse and just make shit up you’re going to be called on it. You haven’t bothered to deal with anyone’s substantive points, preferring to whine and throw lame insults around (fat americans and their fat SUVs? christ, you were right when you said you had no gift for humour). Is it because you have problems with reading comprehension? you do seem to have difficulty keeping track of the conversation (witness your flailing and confusion when talking to adifferentbrad)

I’d have thought the difference between Fat Jokes and actually hating fat people was fairly obvious. On behalf of all the people who thought Gav’s photoshop was funny but still think you’re a dick, give it a couple of minutes thought.

Thanks for the heads-up on Fast Food Nation though, you must be pretty down with the underground to have unearthed it. It’s practically samizdat. Have you heard of this great band called The Beatles?

if a brain tumour could talk it would sound like ichomobothogogus.

Uh, I was reacting to adifferentbrad and flew off the handle – sick of that PC bullshit.

Just to divert everyone from the half a dozen strains of frothing, foaming argument going on for a second, I’d like to start a new one.

I hate, with a big, rich, black hate-ity hate, any use of that trite phrase “PC”. It sends me completely barking mad. And that’s just not right, you know. Cats do not bark.

Know why? Because to me, anyone using this term is essentially saying “Hey, I’m going to insult people, and if you don’t like it, well tough! And, and and, you’re oppressing me with all your talk about actually thinking of others as, like, actual human beings like me, okay? You, you, you you PC poopyhead, you!”

If I haven’t already conveyed the impression, use of PC is a very eight-year-old argument. It says ‘I’ll do what I like, and I don’t care about anyone who’s not me, and if you try to make me, I’ll call you names!’

This is something that cats do not do. We are eminently polite. We sit a polite distance from folks, and engage in polite social intercourse. We ask for our food when hungry in dulcet tones that thrill the ear. When some human or animal offends our deepest sensibilities, we engage in honest battle, then retire home to tell the tale by the fireside. When we get our leg over, we generously share our pleasure with the neighbourhood, declaiming a running commentary in piercing joyful voices. When affectionate, we snuggle our warm and furry selves upon our lucky friends, happy in the knowledge that they’re receiving one of God’s greatest gifts, that of loose fur.

And when our friends are overwhelmed by the ugliness of humanity and the utter bleakness of existence, we selflessly distract them by vomiting in their sandals.

Thanks for the heads-up on Fast Food Nation though, you must be pretty down with the underground to have unearthed it. It’s practically samizdat.

Oh, ichomobothogogus, I think I’m in love. I’ve not seen nor heard anyone else use that word in over a decade. And I double love that you used it to slay The Tedious Lesley, who was beginning to get right up my delicate little nose. Well, had been well up there in naso-pharyngeal land for quite some time, actually.

Fancy meeting me on the fence tonight, about 3 am? You can talk some more Russian to me, baby…

I think Lesley’s jealous of my brain tumor. You want it? No seriously, It’s all yours. Take it with my compliments. Except watch out – there’s a risk it will blow out your opitc nerve at some future date.

But other than that, hey – it’s what all the kool kidz want!

Qetesh: Cats Rule!

Indubitably, celticgirl. And may I congratulate you on the inestimable, almost catlike, good taste you show in your nom de plume?

The likes of Lesley could not compare to the intelligence of either your brain tumour or my regurgitated dinner, alas. She merely covets same because she feels so inferior, having achieved nothing but weight loss in her life.

We, on the other hand, are clearly civilised and sophisticated beings, who share delight in the finer things of life, such as elegant disputation with other rapier wits, and, when that fails, throwing up in the toes of their shoes.

“Fast Food Nation’ =Samizdat? Maybe in America, but not elsewhere. Here in Yurp it’s just another piece of ammunition to use in our anti-fat-USAnian jihad.

I’m having much fun pointing and laughing at the greedy Americans arguing over their weight-guilt Get over your bloody selves!

[…] post by Qetesh the Abyssinian and a wordpress plugin by Elliott […]

Oooh, look! ANOTHER circular firing squad! Now I remember why I stopped reading Alternet!!1!

Evidently, however, there are those who would support SadlyNo’s wingnutfat mockery and still hate me for judging gluttonous behaviour.

Oh for Christ’s sake. Gavin and HTML are generally funny and light-hearted. You’re a pompous bitch. You’ve read a few books and what… pamphlets you got at Whole Foods? Now you’re a fucking medical expert? Go ahead and ignore the wide range of metabolic conditions that genuinely exist that people haven’t brought on themselves. And the medications that people take for unrelated conditions that play hell with all sorts of things in their bodies, including their weights. You can even ignore the (intuitively obvious to most people) idea that two different people can eat the same diet, exercise the same amount, and one of them will still end up overweight when the other won’t. Yeah, genetics has nothing to do with it.

Feel free. Look at anyone you want who’s overweight and loudly condemn them for being gluttons. I mean, you’re clearly free of flaws yourself, and obvious well-informed enough to be able to judge the root causes of someone’s medical conditions just by fucking looking at them.

I’m not saying I agree with everything Lesley says, but she expressly related her own dietary issues as well as her mother’s cancer. So the ‘easy for her to say’ card doesn’t work.

Nope, I’m going to call bullshit on this one, HTML. She’s claimed mild hypothyroidism and a fight against the middle-age spread. That’s nothing compared to a full-blown metabolic disorder, or the struggles people go through once they’ve become seriously overweight and are fighting to return to good health. The ‘easy for her to say’ card plays just fine.

Lesley, I didn’t mean to insult you. What leads me to believe you do have thin skin is that you seem to respond to everyone who comments about what you said. Maybe you just think they deserve an answer, but when I try to do that I just usually end up feeling burnt out. I wasn’t calling you weak or pathetic, I was saying people who apologize for their beliefs are. I haven’t really seen you do that.

Everyone here is behaving as if they are morally superior. That’s because we all think that our morality is the right morality and as such, your morality is the wrong morality. Seriously, Celticgirl is wielding her illness like a club to bludgeon everyone who disagrees with her. Her criticism of Lindsey as a ‘martyr’ are laughable because of that. I’m sorry she’s sick, but most overweight don’t have brain tumors.

Don’t think those of you who argue that calling people “fat” is the most wicked thing possible don’t sound as if you believe that you’re “morally superior”. Of course you do. How would you really have us describe you? Does “heavy” really sound better? how about “above average weight”. Those don’t work, as body builders are heavy and above , not that it’s really more healthy. How about Endomorphic? Nothing insulting or scientifically innacurate about Sheldon and his Somatotypes… Oh wait, yeah there is. You are all demanding we treat your weight as something that should never be mentioned, as opposed to something that shouldn’t be used to stigmatize you.

Now I’m offended!

If someone is a prick with a big nose you might be expected to insult that feature. If someone is an asshole with horrible hair an insult to that person would be expected to make note of it.

So why is fat off limits, again? When, let’s be clear, we’re talking about insulting colossal pricks.

And Lesley’s been taking thread tenacity lessons from Doc Sammich.

Trolling is fine for a hobby but it makes for a shitty full time job.

[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKaDBKEzlvI%5D

ah, the old days, where lefties argued picayune points of order amongst themselves while rome burned.

well, that went well for us, as liberalism is of course ascendant. isn’t it?

fattie fat fatbags, who fucking cares. and as i’m sure has been said over 1 billion times above, sadly! no follows a certain style sheet, and that sheet (page 666 of strunk and white’s elements of style) most assuredly calls for getting under the skin of pretend-genocidal scum.

fatty fatness with a side of fat sauce.

Hey, I missed out on the whole “Negrofacism” thing. Can somebody post a picture so I can see it?

I can’t decide who’s worse, those sanctimonious assholes over at Feministe or Lesley. I think I’ll be in a better frame of mind to make my decision after I down this pint of Phish Food.

“I can’t decide who’s worse, those sanctimonious assholes over at Feministe or Lesley.”

Whichever’s fatter, of course!

Goatboy, Lesley is clearly a common reader of this blog. SHE’S not the one trolling. SHE’S not the one ridiculing the OP’s post endlessly. Trolling doesn’t mean disagreeing with you, or other “regulars” . GTod, you people are clickish and annoying as the folks in the old AOL chatrooms. Defend your friends if you want, but understand that that’s all you’re doing. You’re not defending this site from trolls.

I CALLS em like I SEES em.

—
“I disagree with Lesley.”
Lesley: “Typical response from a lazy fatty!”
soullite: “Lesley is totally not trolling.”

You’ve dismissed everyone who has pointed out that there are many factors that contribute to obesity— beyond laziness, ignorance, selfishness– as engaging in self-justification and refusing to take responsibility. When presented with both facts and personal experience, you have stepped past every point made and simply reasserted your beliefs, insulting and attacking anyone who dared to challenge you. Why so committed?

Let’s say for the sake of argument that what you believe is true: that most fat people are that way because they are lazy and eat bad food. Why do you care? Why do you feel entitled to look down your nose that them? Is reserving the right to judge people by their looks really the territory you want to defend?

Here’s why it matters: there are hundreds of thousands of people in the US, mostly women, who spend every day of their lives starving themselves, throwing up every scrap of food they eat, brutalizing their bodies with over-exercise, embracing pain and risking death by going under the surgeon’s knife, who will literally endure anything– anything— not to be fat. They have internalized the “thin good, fat bad” message so deeply that many of them would rather die (and often do) than to endure the social consequences of being fat.

So, please, Lesley, if you can’t bring yourself to see us fat folks as equals deserving your respect; if we must forever be a “them” to you, a proxy of American consumerism, perhaps you might at least consider that the one-dimensional attitude you hold so dear has direct and grave consequences for women (a group that I assume you do identify with).

And for the record, again, I wasn’t offended by Retardo’s original post in any way. I only tried to point out why he might expect some shit for it.

It’s times like this I am thankful I have no appreciable community of participating readers.

Well stated, kingubu. But what about this?

It’s times like this I am thankful I have no appreciable community of participating readers.

Norb, by addressing “readers,” you reify a hierarchy that places the literate above the illiterate; you insult the dyslexic and minimize their struggles; and, frankly, show a habit of mind that could be described as, if not fascist per se, certainly fascist-enabling.

soullite522, were you reading the same comments thread as everyone else? i can’t think of anyone who suggested you shouldn’t ever use the word fat, or said that calling someone fat was the worst thing ever, or said one’s weight should never be mentioned. i’m pretty sure it was me not celticgirl who said Lesley (i assume you mean Lesley) was martyring herself, and she brought up her illnesses to illustrate possible non-behavioural causes of obesity. she wasn’t bludgeoning anyone. i think that covers everything. or is there anything you got right? maybe before jumping in to insult everyone you could go back and read what people actually said

Flip: I least I’ve put out a series of “blog on tape” recordings as read by Mark “Niedermeyer” Metcalf.

Franken is OFF the blogroll!

When will someone address my complaints? Peanut Butter on a dogs nose isn’t something to be laughed at, nor is it something that should make you feel better about yourselves. How dare you publish that taudry video of me, if only to maximize my pain and humiliation!

Now I’m going to lick myself, because I can.

Norb, we’re just waiting for you to step over the line; then, BAM, we’ll come down on your comment section like a battalion of Annieangels on crack, with Pasty-troopers providing air support.

No really, I read your site every day. Hardly ever comment though; your WAY funnier than me.

Totally OT: Mark Metcalf now lives in our city, and does acting in the local theater on a regular basis. Recently he played the Dad in The Christmas Story. Totally nice guy.

Well stated, kingubu. But what about this?

I dunno, GoatBoy, the whole thing’s gotten all balled up. Retardo’s original point– that its just plain stupid to shun the SadNosians for making fat jokes while embracing others who advocate torture and genocide– was well taken, but that got lost almost immediately.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with unleashing Teh Fat Jokes as part of the broader strategy of attacking the Wingnuts. I wouldn’t do it, but that’s a personal judgment call and I’m not the scolding type.

Ridiculing someone’s fatness as a means to attack them for being a despicable bastard is obviously not the same as saying that they are despicable because they are fat. But it is also true that doing so runs the risk of reinforcing negative stereotypes about fat people. That’s what makes the whole thing sort of a gray area, I think, and no hard-and-fast rule applies either way.

Where the whole thing went south (no, that’s not a redneck joke) is when Lesley and others decided to use the discussion of that gray are as an opportunity to unleash some of the most ridiculous and self-righteous anti-fatty stereotypes. That’s when people started choosing up sides and nothing good has come of it since then.

I concur. You try walking through the mall licking peanut butter off your own nose and see what kind of reception you get!

I’m with you, kingubu (the second coolest band in the history of Ohio — world’s tallest midget prize there?)

Lesley is a troll, and not one of our usual fun and spunky variety. And och! the bites she’s gotten here. Shame on a whole bunch of you.

And, because I can’t resist:

Ridiculing someone’s bad hair as a means to attack them for being a despicable bastard is obviously not the same as saying that they are despicable because they have bad hair. But it is also true that doing so runs the risk of reinforcing negative stereotypes about people with bad hair.

So all those Glenn Reynolds and Ben Shapiro and Jonah Goldberg jokes are off the table for those who want to remain ON the blogroll.

Now I’m going to lick myself, because I can.

Your comment in objectively anti-biped.

How nice for you that the genetic lottery endowed you with special gifts. Have you no compassion for the millions who will go to their graves having never known the apparent joy of licking their own genitals???

Now, go get your ball, you insensitive clod, its time for walkies.

You know, when Galileo dropped a fat American tourist and a starving Ethiopian off the Tower of Pisa they both died at about the same time.

Ichom, again you’re defending your friend, Repeatedly bringing up an illness when it really isn’t germaine to the general discussion (as I said, most people who are overweight don’t have brain tumors. Most people with brain tumors don’t gain a massive amount of weight). If she isn’t attempting to stifle debate, than what’s the point of making it the center of every other comment she makes? If it’s not a bludgeon, why make statements like “Do you want my brain tumor…?”. It’s an attempt to guilt people into showing her opinions defference. I can’t really think of any other way to read what she’s written. IF you can, explain it to me.

Oy. I promise to weigh (no pun intended) in on this later. I have been extremely busy at work with little time for blogging.

Jesus god, people…let it go.

I’m an absolute HAMBEAST and I thought it was risable.

Speaking as a representative of Obese-Americans everywhere, fat jokes can be really fucking hilarious…WHEN THEY ARE FUNNY.

Example:

Homer Simpson picking out a new mu mu – FUNNY

Any 5 minute span of Date Movie – NOT FUNNY

This has been a public service announcement from the Hamburger Council of America.

Geez. I’m all…What I mean is I think…This is the kind of…Ah hell. You peeps are insane (is it safe to say that?) I don’t get the why of this. Is this kind of bickering thread considered “fun” or “interesting” in certain circles that don’t include me? I mean, I get the whole point and all. I just don’t understand how it turned into a two-day obsession on at least two blogs. Shit, I’ve poked my nose in here half a dozen times since last night and it just keeps grinding along, a glacier flattening all the interesting terrain features before it (now there’s an obscure analogy – right up there with Pinko).

But hey, no sweat. I’ll check in again in a couple hours and see if we’re still playing “you’re a bad person ’cause you said a bad thing about a bad person” or whatevs…

mikey

is that a tacit admission that everything else you wrote was complete bollocks? glad to hear it

I like pie!

Speaking as a representative of Obese-Americans everywhere, fat jokes can be really fucking hilarious…WHEN THEY ARE FUNNY.

My name is kingubu and I endorse this giant sandwich, er, message.

Most people with brain tumors don’t gain a massive amount of weight

Most people with brain tumors in general, no. People with pituitary tumors (which is, in fairness, how it was first described)? Ummm… yeah, weight gain, or weight loss (depending on whether the tumor gives you over- or underproduction of certain hormones, and sometimes, for bonus fun, one and then the other, as the tumor progresses). Pituitary tumors don’t always involve weight changes, but it’s certainly not a rare effect.

This has been another installment of “Ask Dr. Science”…

Let’s argue about fat jokes for a while longer, it’s much more important than anything else right now.

(clutches hankie and pearls)

ooooooooh!

(swoons)

Important?

You do know where you are, right?

“You do know where you are, right?”

Sadly, not any more…

Anyways, who wants some pie?

You try walking through the mall with a pie and see what kind of reception you get.

If only there was a way we could combine the fat jokes and the poop jokes….

What kind of pie?

I have rewied Lesley’s statement on other posts and have come to the conlussion that I weas right, and this person is not a troll. s/he (Lesley is a gender nuetral name in most places) is clearly anti-war, anti-neocon and anti-republican. S/he has commented on several posts recently, only on this one (and it’s related post) has s/he done anything that could be considered an attempt to start trouble. Usually, s/he posts only a single comment in any given thread. This behaviour is indicitive of a “lurker� (which I usually am myself). This is not the behavior of a troll, who is someone who is attempting to disrupt convsersation and destroy meaningful debate. As Lesley has made few attempts other than this one to assert themself in conversations, I do not see how Lindsey could be a troll unless you think being a troll means simply being dismissive of people who don’t agree with you or who hold more extreme positions than you do. simply saying “Yes, Lindsey is a troll� is not a valid argument. Can you reference other comment threads or sites where s/he is engaging in trolling behavior?

You’ve dismissed everyone who has pointed out that there are many factors that contribute to obesity— beyond laziness, ignorance, selfishness– …

What I saw was the “it’s genetic” argument over and over. Type two diabetes as a cause is not plausible. One may be predisposed to TTD but it’s brought on and controlled by behaviours. Many common as dirt modern diseases can be reversed by changing one’s behaviour. If you find this offensive, I don’t know what to say. It’s laughable that you’re calling me a troll for suggesting that much of the obesity in North America is caused by eating habits.

This is a fat country, people are touchy about it, so they make up shit to make themselves feel more secure. It’s cognitive dissonance. They know being overweight tends to lead to health problems, but they don’t want to believe them. So people like ampersand come along and tell them it’s all a big bad medical conspiracy and they decide to believe it. A shit load of anorexic people go to all sorts of websites to tell them that that’s healthy too. I doubt it matters though, they aren’t hurting anyone but themselves.

I agree with soullite on this. If it makes me a troll, so be it.

“This is not the behavior of a troll, who is someone who is attempting to disrupt convsersation and destroy meaningful debate.�

Which is what Lesley did in this case.

“Can you reference other comment threads or sites where s/he is engaging in trolling behavior?�

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and calls you a lazy fatty…

How many fires can I set without being called an arsonist?

Icho, again, why are you pretending that I said things that I have not said. You are free to disregard anything I’ve said. That’s your right. I’ve certainly written you off as weak willed sheep who decides never to oppose this comment threads resident click. But there is no logical way to see what I wrote above as anything but a response to your post. It does not contradict anything you’ve said (and while the grammar may not be perfect, it is certainly readable). You can’t respond, so you make respond without ever actually responding. As I said, if you have another reading of Celticgirls behavior that is more favorable, and that contradicts my understanding of it I will listen. But you didn’t, and I’m assuming you can’t.

#

—
“I disagree with Lesley.�
Lesley: “Typical response from a lazy fatty!�
soullite: “Lesley is totally not trolling.�

Never said that. But whatever supports your case against me, Goatboy.

Since the entire population of Left Blogistan seems to be caught up in this mess — hi people! — I might as contribute to this endless, numbing debate as well.

1.) I am fat. I am Lardacus!

2.) I thought the sandwich was both mildly funny and mildly offensive to fat people, but I pretty much shrugged it off and went about my day.

3.) I thought the celery was more funny and more clever than the sandwich, although dependent on the sandwich for context. The pro- and anti- fat discussion in the threads soon became tiresome. No one wanted to talk about Art Frahm.

4.) I appreciate that people’s feelings get hurt and all, and I am totally down with not making fun of people’s irrelevant characteristics (e.g. I have a big problem with the misogynist anti-Coulter stuff), but calls for ideological purity hold no charm for me. Offensensitivity is an aspect of the progressive movement I could really do without. I guess I have, as some dude said, “other priorities.”

5.) I feel really bad that a bunch of people I like are all yelling at each other. Bush is trying to provoke war with Iran and the issue of the day is a throwdown between Chris Clarke (among many, many, many others) and Sadly, No! ??? I mean, look, I get that until the size of a man’s pants is of no more significance than the color of his eyes, there gon’ be war — but can we move on now?

6.) Does this mean we can’t make fun of mustaches anymore? Tom Friedman and Michael Medved are malignant idiots, but their mustaches are begging for it.

7.) I have a mustache. I am Mustachicus!

(repeat as needed)

crossposted at Feministe

Pretending obtuseness when encountering paraphrasing (or any other common rhetorical technique) is common troll behavior.

Usenet called from 1995. They want their troll back.

Why paraphrase when, according to you, my literal comments will do?

Lesley said,

March 1, 2007 at 13:16

if a brain tumour could talk it would sound like ichomobothogogus.

———————————————————————————–

What I saw was the “it’s genetic� argument over and over.

Ummm… you jumped all over it the first time it was brought up. And if you think genetic factors don’t play a significant role in obesity, you’re really not very well versed in the current medical literature.

I agree with soullite on this. If it makes me a troll, so be it.

I don’t think you’re a troll, but I think you’ve been inexcusably vile to people about a subject that you clearly have a limited (or perhaps deliberately narrow) understanding of. It isn’t that you’re suggesting that eating habits are related to obesity (way to go out on a limb there, by the way), it’s that you’re insulting, presumptious, and overgeneralizing to boot.

On top of that, if someone is fat, and it’s entirely their fault, why in God’s name does that give you license to shit on them? Again, I’m betting you have your flaws, some of which are becoming glaringly obvious…

“Why paraphrase when, according to you, my literal comments will do?”

Because my way was funnier and said more with fewer words.

Were you once a fatty, Lesley? You seem to have a zeal one usually finds in former smokers.

Good grief. I agree with Kathleen. This is the Internet. Everyone has an ax to grind and an ox to be gored and that’s just the way it is. A fat joke, like most jokes, is a cheap shot. Eliminate cheap shots from comedy and Letterman and Leno’s monologues would take seconds, Monty Python, Second City, and 99% of every sitcom past and present would never exist. Fat comedians tell fat jokes, black comedians tell “black people are like… ” and “white people are like…” jokes; something is always too big, too small, too short, too skinny, too bald, too hairy, too different, et fucking cetera, and there’s room for offending anyone who wants to be offended, including spurring the Society for the Protection of Cocaine-Sniffing Malapropists to write letters every time they see the word “Bushism”.
Now it’s great that we’ve matured to the point where certain jokes about race and gender and the like are off limits to the mainstream, and perhaps one day we’ll reach some sensitivity ideal where no one ever makes fun of anyone and all we’ve got left are puns and Garrison Keillor, but I don’t want to live so long.
And while cheap shots are indeed cheap (although the one in question was rather mild as far as such ragging goes), this is mainly a comedy site, not the Brookings Institute. Reading these threads have been depressing, because you’ll never see anything like this in wingerland, short of arguments on just what kind of torture they’d like to subject us all to, not matter how much we weigh.

STOP FIGHTING!

Lesley is pretty much right, if you’re fat it’s because of YOUR CHOICES. Lifestyle genetics means you will most likely be fat if your parents are. Because they raise you, you will turn out like them, eat like them, and also mirror their exercise habits (or lack of).

I dunno why the big hoopla over this, I mean, being fat is not healthy.

Fat people are touchy. They like to make excuses why they are fat. LIke I said in the other thread, if you don’t have a medical condition and you are fat, you need to move more and eat less instead of complaining that it’s not your fault ad puke.

Now everyone go and eat some ice cream and cry. LOL.

I honestly don’t care much about the jokes. It’s the shit some people on here are saying when they’re apparently being serious that blows me away.

Lesley said,

March 1, 2007 at 3:30

floridasally said,

February 28, 2007 at 19:53

Lesley: I have been a vegetarian since 1972, I don’t step foot into fast food places, I don’t eat fried food. And I am fat. so fuck off.

These remarks are off the wall funny.
a) I never suggested a vegetarian diet. b) I’m not a vegetarian c) I know plenty of fat vegetarians. They overindulge in refined carbohydrates.

What DO you eat, veggieperson? The veggies aren’t making you fat, so list foods that aren’t green. And be honest. There’s plenty of non-meat, non-fried fattening foods. So you sit on your ripe stupid ass eating cake. Even if it’s low in fat, it’s high in calories. Or do you look at the labels?

Make me laugh some more but don’t tell me it’s your genes. It’s very likely not.

_________________________________________________
OK, last one. But I think this has to be my favorite.

I mean, who says Lesley doesn’t have a sense of humour?

Argh. A 503 ate my comment. Forget the preview button, when will that crap end?

To redo it quick, Lesley, I, for one, would like you to answer to something kingubu said.
Why are fatties worse than anorexics? I’m pretty sure you expressed sympathy for the latter before, yet that’s more of a behavior based issue than being fat.

“So you sit on your ripe stupid ass eating cake.”

But Lesley never called anyone a lazy fatty, though. And is so not a troll at all.

Why is that funny, celticgirl?

“Why are fatties worse than anorexics? I’m pretty sure you expressed sympathy for the latter before, yet that’s more of a behavior based issue than being fat.”

I’d bet twenty bucks that I’ve provided the answer to this question five comments back.

this thread and the one at feministe remind me of the ideological indoctrination sessions of the left in the 1970s, from which some of us barely escaped with our lives.

And I’m not trying to say blame anorexics but not the large, to be careful in a thread where many are understandably touchy.

get back to me when you’re certain, adifferentbrad.

don’t get me started on the narcissism of anorexics 🙂

“this thread and the one at feministe remind me of the ideological indoctrination sessions of the left in the 1970s, from which some of us barely escaped with our lives.”

Now say “groupthink”. Maybe “clique” and “lemmings”. That’d be the totally non-troll thing to do.

“don’t get me started on the narcissism of anorexics”

After the last 24 hours or so, most of us won’t be tempted to get you started on any damn thing. Jesus tits in a pie pan, is there anybody to whom you’re not smugly superior?

Evidently, however, there are those who would support SadlyNo’s wingnutfat mockery and still hate me for judging gluttonous behaviour. I repeat, judging gluttonous behaviour, not your kid’s deafness, not your kid’s autism, not your brain tumour, but maybe yes, your anorexia (though you have my sympathy) and your type two diabetes which is has only recently become an epidemic in America and not because UFOs blasted you with mysterious rays.

So…
You think anorexics are narcissists and are ready to blame them, but you feel sympathy for them.
How noble.

Oh snap! I TOTALLY forgot to use the alien abduction excuse!

“Evidently, however, there are those who would support SadlyNo’s wingnutfat mockery and still hate me for judging gluttonous behaviour.”

Fuckin right, Fatass.

And I’m done. From now on Lesley likes pie.

“icho, again, why are you pretending that I said things that I have not said”

first of all, when did i pretend you said things you hadn’t? and when did i do it a second time?
anyway, lets see. My original response to you pointed out that almost everything in your post was wrong, either because you lack reading comprehension, are a bit thick, or were being deliberately disingenuous. you only responded to one point i made, so it seems fair to assume you realised the rest of your post was indefensible.(you make this assumption yourself, i quote “But you didn’t, and I’m assuming you can’t.”) As far as celticgirl’s posts go, my reading seems reasonable. she brought up her illnesses to illustrate non-behavioural reasons for obesity. Lesley challenged her on it and there was some back and forth about which illnesses were caused by behaviour, and Lesley’s mistaken assumption that celticgirl suffered from type II diabetes. (as well as suggesting that brain tumors might be caused by behaviour, even though she doesnt know one way or the other). Then celticgirl made the “do you want my tumour” crack in response to Lesley saying “if a brain tumour could talk it would sound like ichomobothogogus”, jokingly implying Lesley was obsessed with brain tumours. Hardly a case of using it as a bludgeon to stop debate. You’re entitled to your own opinion of it, it is subjective after all, but you don’t have much evidence to back it up.

I’m sorry to have to rehash this at such length, but you seem wilfully dense. and next time you reply please try and sound less like a fatuous arse

Whatever. Your dog’s fat.

yup, Lesley loves her some martyr complex. I’m surprised you lasted this long with all those leftist totalitarians and PC fascists gunning for you. A remarkable story of survival and courage no doubt

Lesley et al: This isn’t guilt, it isn’t a bludgeon, it’s fact. Read it and weep, or don’t – I couldn’t care less. You people have shown a side of humanity I didn’t need to see.

Lesley – you’re not a doctor, nutritionist or fitness professional. You read a book. Ponder that a bit.

I’m with GoatBoy- time to blow this pop stand.

————————————————————————————–

What are the presenting symptoms of pituitary adenoma?

Symptoms from pituitary adenomas can be classified as follows:

1) Overproduction of hormones: The specific symptoms experienced by a patient will depend on the type of hormone that is being overproduced. A tumor that produces large amounts of ACTH causes Cushing Disease, which leads to obesity, high blood pressure, and muscle weakness, among other symptoms. A prolactinoma is a pituitary adenoma that produces large amounts of prolactin. Symptoms of this include irregular menstruation, sexual dysfunction and breast discharge. A growth hormone producing tumor leads to acromegaly, a condition characterized by progressive enlargement of hand and foot size and an alteration of facial features.

2) Hypopituitarism: A non-functioning adenoma can still lead to hormonal problems. It does so by compressing the pituitary gland and results in a decrease or cessation of normal hormone production by this organ.

3) Visual deficit: A large tumor can grow upwards, out of the sella turcica and compress the optic nerves (optic chiasm). Frequently, this leads to a specific form of “tunnel vision� called bitemporal hemianopsia.

4) Non-specific symptoms: Sometimes a sizable pituitary adenoma can lead to headaches or a sensation of pressure or fullness behind the eyes. Rarely, bleeding into a tumor can lead to severe headache, double and blurring vision (pituitary apoplexy).

Can someone please take this fucking useless thread back behind the barn and put a hollowpoint .22 short in its skull? Kee-rist! The most cogent thing said in the past 20+ pages of kerfuffle and hand-wringing was R. Porrofatto’s Everyone has an ax to grind and an ox to be gored and that’s just the way it is. A fat joke, like most jokes, is a cheap shot. Eliminate cheap shots from comedy and Letterman and Leno’s monologues would take seconds, Monty Python, Second City, and 99% of every sitcom past and present would never exist.

Somewhere along the way, this thread got hijacked into the kind of discussion that has so crippled the Left/Democratic party; where every little whiny subgroup gets its undies in a bundle over the way that someone snickered at it. And then everyone has to spend their time & energy responding to “hurt feelings” and “insensitivity.” Boo fucking hoo. Everyone has to crowd around and say soothing things and make a big fuss over whatever subgroup it is that’s being a drama queen, and meanwhile the wingnuts are shredding the constitution and draining the treasury. Good job, folks. A round of applause for you and whatever disability or protected status it is that you claim. Make sure to stand up tall on the soapbox, rend your clothes, sing your tale of woe and demand that we all feel so, so sorry. Dominate the discussion and prevent any forward movement on real, core issues. Good work. Thanks a pantload.

Brief musical interlude.

Jesus tits in a pie pan, is there anybody to whom you’re not smugly superior?

Self-aware, much, here in the midst of your second purge-the-infidels crusade?

I like pie, too.

[singing]
two worlds colliiiding
and they will NEVER tear us APART
dum dum dum DUMMMMM

Oh, sorry. Here’s the deal: Feministe is doing what Feministe does, which is to question social norms and assumptions that harm people. In this case, fat jokes.

Sadly, No! is doing what SN! does: making fun of conservatives.

The problem, of course, is that SN! tried to argue with Feministe on its turf, which is the blog version of bringing a knife to a gunfight.

I’ve lurked at both sites for a long time now, and I love you both. Which is why I chalk up the occasional fat joke/Ann Coulter’s-a-tranny dig to Sadly, No! being run by a bunch of smart ,funny boys who don’t spend a lot of time thinking about the larger implications of their little jokes.

That doesn’t, however, mean there aren’t any. OF COURSE advocating genocide is worse than making fun of someone’s weight. But to respond to one with the other is about as relevant to the point as oh, Tacky outing HTML over a lightsaber photo.

Also, guys: If Chris Clarke, ilkya, zuzu, and piny are all saying maybe you’re on the wrong side of an argument… maybe you’re on the wrong side of an argument.

Infidels can stay. Assholes get the purge.

You try walking through the mall sometime with a purge and see what kind of treatment you get.

You try walking through the mall sometime with a [fill in the blank] … ”

I have lost count of how many comments have used that. What I want to know is: what the fuck are you doing in a mall in the first place ?

“Which is why I chalk up the occasional fat joke/Ann Coulter’s-a-tranny dig to Sadly, No! being run by a bunch of smart ,funny boys who don’t spend a lot of time thinking about the larger implications of their little jokes.”

There are larger implications involved in parsing every joke for malicious intent as well. I think it’s safe to say the smart, funny boys here care about Teh Funny. They might have a personal interest in not killing it. Without jokes, which are all cruel (the good ones at least), we would still have amusing. And we’d still have droll. And clever and witty we’d still have. But we wouldn’t have funny anymore.

GoatBoy-
Yeah, ok, totally. I mean, I think Sadly, No! is funny, or I wouldn’t read it, obvs. And the last thing I want is for Gavin to quit posting photoshopped pics of celebratives.

I don’t think, though, that the people on the original SN! thread who mentioned that the fat jokes could maybe-possibly hurt other people’s feelings were “parsing every joke for malicious intent.” I do think it would have blown over a lot sooner with a little more “oops-our bad” and a little less “can’t you take a joke JEEZ.”

“I do think it would have blown over a lot sooner with a little more “oops-our badâ€? and a little less “can’t you take a joke JEEZ.â€?

But it wasn’t bad. Most here agree MC Daffy D is worthy of ridiculous insult. When insulting, you work with what you’re given. Why is fat off limits where other physical characteristics wouldn’t be? Can we expect to hear from Concerned Women With Pronounced Throat Protuberances next? Or Homeschooled Virgins With Unfortunate Hair?

As for those who would grind their axes here: I find it is often the case that one frequently finds that for which one is looking.

But, if there’s a level of cruelty to jokes, at least the good ones as GoatBoy sez up there, why are the Rightards so damn bad at ’em?

Or at least they’re bad at humor. Maybe jokes are not the same as humor.

It’s not off limits to make fun of people for being fat, it just makes you look like an asshole.

People who are fat need help. Imagine if you were fat, you may be I dunno, and all you heard all the time were fat jokes, and people look at you funny and all that and you KNOW that you should lose weight but it isn’t easy and ummm, a fat lady sure ain’t about to walk into a gym full of fit ladies without feeling that they are being made fun of for being fat. They will be made fun of by the fit ladies, that is just how the world works.

I’m a fitness professional. Getting people to stick to eating right and exercising is VERY HARD. Why? Because people don’t like to do it.

But the worse thing for self-esteem is to have people make FUN of you becuase of the way you look. It is very hard for a fat lady to have self-confidence, true self-confidence that isn’t just a fake confidence that they hold so that they can appear not to care about all the fat jokes.

People who are fat and who don’t lose weight have their reasons….one is SHAME. Shame makes fat people eat more, because the food is nice to them and comforts them.

Where does that shame come from? From shit like this. It’s true.

When insulting, you work with what you’re given.

Um. Yes, Daffyddghgh is an asshole. He also wears “viva Reagan” t-shirts and writes fanfic. Calling him fat is like being given a huge wad of bills, taking the dollar sitting on top, and throwing the rest away.

As for why it’s “off-limits,” better writers than I are making that point over at Feministe, so I’ll leave them to it.

Anyhoo. I don’t want to join the axe-grinding party (although of all the axes I’ve seen so far, Lesley’s has got to be down to the handle by now), I’m just saying that it was offensive to several readers, who pretty gently pointed it out, and were not mad about it, until the whole thing got turned into a Declaration of Our Right to Make Fun of Whatever (as Long as You’re the Bigger Asshole).

Let me clarify: Advocating genocide and torture is worse than making a fat joke. But it’s quite possible not to do either. You know?

He died because of his weight. What a WASTE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5neuWiAlpm4

Ok, I can’t do the embedding thing. WhatEVAH.

What’s more offensive, a funny fat joke or a funny joke about misogynistic Christianity?

HTML,

Making fun of fat people is like making fun of mothers. For some silly reason, there’s a societal shibboleth about folks who can’t push away from a dinner table that engenders a violent overreaction.

The problem, of course, is that SN! tried to argue with Feministe on its turf, which is the blog version of bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Jiggavegas? Did you just make a wop joke?!

This is the greatest thread ever. Without it I would never have known what the presenting symptons of pituitary adenoma are.

This is the greatest thread ever. Without it, I’d never have known what the presenting symptoms of pituitary adenoma are.

I was actually insulting fans of musical theater, but hey, as long as it was funny…

I ate and ate and ate,
no I did not miss a plate, well
How much do these suppers cost?
We’ll take it out in hate.

Now you’ve got me humming Leonard Cohen lyrics, you bastards. I hope you’re satisfied.

I was actually insulting fans of musical theater, but hey, as long as it was funny…

Anyone you can flame
I can flame better
I can flame anyone better than you.

/Ethel Merman

…what the fuck are you doing in a mall in the first place ?

UH UH!

No. You. Dittent.

For your information, some of us are genetically predisposed to be at the mall. Why don’t YOU try walking through the mall sometime…at the, um, mall…

Anyway, STFU, jerk!

Sheesh, people. What kind of leftists are you? Everyone! 1… 2… 3… Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbayaaaa… Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbayaaaa…

Because of the anti-fat fascism of this site’s spam filter, the world is being denied a hilarious Excel chart I made about the relative fatness of Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh.

So far in this thread the most cogent comments have been from Qetesh the bulemic Abyssinian, who has the benefit of first-hand knowledge of an eating disorder. Mehitabel would probably have something to say, but she is shut away at the moment, since her comments seem to skeeve some people out, and there are already enough ruffled noses and feathers out of joint. So instead, I’m posting as a skinny non-American… I say that in the interests of full disclosure, to show that I’m not driven by denial or cognitive dissonance or anything. Not on this topic, anyway.

Basically, evolution has prepared us for a condition of being half-starved most of the time. Once we reach or exceed what is currently considered ‘normal weight’, we are outside of familiar territory, and the manufacturer’s warranty no longer applies. In itself, this is not an argument for weight loss… evolution hasn’t prepared us for exceeding the age of 30, either, but our bodies keep creaking on for a few more decades.

At some age, of course, we pass from what one might call “over-aged” into a condition such as ‘senile’, or ‘dead’; and in the same way, if we keep putting on the pounds, at some point of obesity we incur a heightened risk of diabetes and so on.

The thing is, the crucial body-mass index is in dispute (if anyone wants the citations, see me after class). I don’t know where the cut-off lies between “overweight” (i.e. causing aesthetic distress to my delicate sensitivities) and “public-health issue”. Meanwhile — as Scott Lemieux pointed out in the earlier thread — if we stigmatise obesity and crank up the body-Nazi rhetoric, then there is the converse public-health issue of anorexia. Perhaps a cost-benefit analysis is in order before we start driving fatties through the streets with horsewhips [which is not to say that anorexia is simply or always a matter of social pressures… mumble mumble, viral infection, mumble mumble, OCD, a whole different can of fish, or kettle of worms, or whatever].

For the record, adipose tissue is dangerous stuff. It isn’t just inert mass weighing you down… those little fat cells lead an active hormonal life. They are screwing up your endocrine system, pumping out hormones, and triggering an inflammatory response. Hence the autoimmune diseases (higher risk of Type-2 DM, alzheimers, etc.).

He he, “inflammatory response”, that’s an appropriate place to stop.

Declaration of Our Right to Make Fun of Whatever (as Long as You’re the Bigger Asshole)?

I’ll sign it.

“But, if there’s a level of cruelty to jokes, at least the good ones as GoatBoy sez up there, why are the Rightards so damn bad at ‘em?”

Because there’s more to it besides. Cruelty to those in power, to bullies, to know-it-alls and blowhards can be funny to anyone. “Cripple falls down” only makes the wingnuts laugh.

Oh, it’s easy to laugh. But you try walking through the mall some time kicking cripples and see what kind of treatment you receive!

I wouldn’t be nearly so hostile if this didn’t seem like a demand for tactical purity. You refuse to see the value of ridicule, and to demand that we all play like good little boys and girls. You attack your own on the same day conservatives launch their little “language police” to prove that we’re not civil. And what do you all do? What does Amp do? What do the writers at Feministe do? They play into the hands of conservatives, starting their own offensive to prove how “uncivil” the some of us are. You try and drive away a random lurker who puts themselves out there.

I admit, I failed too. I should have realized that I wasn’t helping and shut the fuck up. I let personal demons cause me to attack Goatboy, who seems to be quite reasonable. I was cruel to celticgirl, who was just trying to defend herself and when anyone in that position would have likely done the same thing. I agree with the people who say this is best buried. We’ve got real enemies and we don’t need to be fighting each-other. I’m sorry for that. We likely all could have handled this better than we have.

The thing is, the crucial body-mass index is in dispute (if anyone wants the citations, see me after class).

Out of curiosity, is this partially due to the failure of the BMI to account for body composition? I realize that BMI is used because it’s easy to acquire (requiring only two pieces of information and all), but it seems like it would obscure a lot of trends (muscle tissue being dense, it boosts your BMI much faster than adipose tissue does, as I’m sure you’re aware). Don’t you think that even slightly more sophisticated assessments of actual body composition would help resolve some of the apparent contradictions in the literature?

Jeebus. I take a couple of days off due to medication-related side effects and the whole fucking internet goes all to hell.

Obviously, I need more (and better) drugs.

Anyway, glad to see Qetesh is still holding the line as the feline voice of reason. Ganesh Bengal Cat has also being kept in durance vile, Herr Doktor B, so he feels Mehitabel’s pain.

Because we wouldn’t want to skeeve people out or anything.

As opposed to this fucking bloodbath. No wounded feelings here!

Thanks for the info, btw, Herr Doktor. I have an autoimmune disease, but so far, it has not impacted my weight (probably because I don’t eat or sleep much). I do suspect, however, that some of what used to be muscle is now fat, but since much of it is numb and/or non-functioning, there’s not much I can do about it now.

When are the rest of Teh Felines allowed to post again?

I think S,N should give us all a guest post. We can talk about eating rodent heads and entrails and vomiting and stuff.

So as not to skeeve people out or upset anyone. 😉

Marita: You mentioned percent body fat in another thread. Another very quick, minimal-data tool is the waist to hip ratio.

Marita said,
Out of curiosity, is this partially due to the failure of the BMI to account for body composition?

Could be. I was mainly thinking of epidemiology studies like this one, which found that “The BMI of minimum mortality was 27.1 for black men (95% confidence interval (Cl) 24.8–29.4), 26.8 for black women (95% CI 24.7–28.9), 24.8 for white men (95% CI 23.8–25.9), and 24.3 for white women (95% Cl 23.3–25.4).”

My understanding is that the US definition of ‘overweight’ is 25

Dafyyd Ab Hugh, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, etc. are bullies. You don’t deal with a bully by being nice to him and giving him your lunch money. You deal with the bully by punching it right in the nose.

No mercy for wingnuts. I’m not talking about Republicans, I’m talking about wingnuts. If they’re overweight, if they wear bad clothes, if they have shitty haircuts, if they are women with big ol’ Adam’s Apples, whatever it is, it’s fair game. These are evil, murderous, cowardly jackals we are talking about here.

And please, don’t act like any photoshopped jumbo sandwich is in any way relevant to “the progressive movement.” I saw a lot of that sort of thing at Feministe yesterday, and it is a crock of horseshit.

Feck, where’s the rest of that comment gone? Does the website dislike [less-than] symbols? Buggeryfuck.

…the US definition of ‘overweight’ is {BMI in the range 25 to 30} and ‘obese’ is defined as {BMI greater than 30}. The lower cut-off for the Overweight range leaves a lot to be desired — not surprising, since it was lowered arbitrarily back in 1998 [I think], for no better reason than to increase the number of people classed as overweight.

Anyway, I’m stopping now and going off for a snack of deep-fried lard, before I turn S,N into another Crooked Timber.

Oh, Lord, Kumbayaa.

The readers of Feministe must watch South Park, Family Guy and The Simpsons with the remote in one hand and a phone with the FCC on speed dial on the other. This circular firing squad is stupid.

…oops. Shouldn’t have said ‘stupid’. Some people have learning difficulties and can’t help it, so no one should never call anyone stupid again.

You try walking through the mall stupid and see…oh. We’ve all actually done that one.

I apologized for my earlier comments here

I’m sorry.

I think S,N should give us all a guest post. We can talk about eating rodent heads and entrails and vomiting and stuff.

The feline who comments on demand, in a properly designated thread, is not the True Feline.

before we start driving fatties through the streets with horsewhips

Cool! Sounds like a typical Friday night in Silver Lake, where the BDS&M fagalehs all live. Some a’ them bears can really scamper when you lay the leather to them.

Hell, some of them even run through malls with … uh … sweaty black leather cowls on? Hey, this thread is trailing off into apologies and calls for a return to “normalcy.” About time we all woke up and realized that we’re tenderhearted, inclusive lefties…

Can I start making fun of myself making fun of myself for making fun? Isn’t it time for that endlessly rotating tesseract thing?

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Merde indeed! I am so sorry I wasn’t around to take this call. I was in Denver, trying to lose some weight. What did I miss?

Eh, not much. A lot of Ragnarok-styled rhetoric and a few random instances of the rivers running red with blood and virulent plagues of insects.

Pretty much a regular day, except we didn’t have any cute dogs in party hats. Which is a shame.

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