Does This Burqa Make Me Look Fat?
Over at America’s Shittiest Website™, K-Lo is incensed about the latest fad that is turning young girls into shameless, godless hussies: bikinis.
[F]or heaven’s sake. This Washington Post piece on three 16-year-old girls shopping for bikinis in Tyson’s Corner is begging for a dad to be on the scene. Mom’s no help — one of them provides financial assistance because a teenage girl just has to have a bikini, you know. “Bikinis are more popular because they’re sexier. They draw a guy’s attention.” Where’s dad to just say no?
Next thing you know these young girls will want to be dancing the “twist” and going out in public without male relatives as chaperones.
Note: I’m at the beach this weekend, so “New Wingnut of the Week” is on temporary hiatus and will return next Sunday.
I’ve heard that Barack Hussein Obama went back in time and invented the Sock Hop to corrupt America’s wimmen.
Speaking of shameless hussies:
Hot K-Lo on Caroline Glick action.
Shorter: Barack Obama isn’t enthusiastic enough about dropping bombs on the Ay-rabs.
This woman has been destroying America’s teen girls for over 40 years.
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MMPH/167598~Annette-Funicello-Frankie-Avalon-Posters.jpg
I didn’t read the article. Were these “bikinis” normal 2 piece suits or Brazilian-style dental floss?
Hmmm. Let me see now. If memory serves me right, teenage American girls have been wearing bikinis since the 1960s (when I was a very delighted teenage boy). It would appear that the world has not ended in the ensuing 45 years and American civilization, if a bit worse for wear and Republican rule, still survives.
Perhaps Ms. K-lo is just jealous that these girls actually look hot in bikinis, while she would scare small children in a burqa?
Okay, Kathryn Jean, you wanna get outraged? Look up tapa-sexo.
Ok, i read the article which apparently puts me one up on K-Lo. The quote about it being a Mom who says bikinis are sexier is actually from one of the girls. The three shoppers were all teenagers. No Mom there. And K-lo managed to miss one of the main points of the story, how guys have a distorted view of what girls’ bodies should look like (too skinny) and how that affects how teenage girls see themselves.
Here’s the end of the story…
I wonder what type of marriage and parenthood she expects people to have exactly. Does she imagine that in any relationship the man automatically gets veto power over all purchases and apparel choices of his wimminfolk?
When I was younger if my dad had tried forbidding me to wear something I would have gone out of my way to wear it every other day. And nowadays if I wanted to buy something small like a garment and my husband tried to “just say no” he would have little success in stopping me and his homelife would become distinctly unhappy.
Let’s leave the domestic model of “man as supreme dictator of his female property” to the Taliban, mmkay?
Such subtleties are lost on Lopez, Woodrowfan, as her main objection is to teenage girls factoring into their decision making attraction to teenage boys. Her call for the presence of dads is a call for this budding sexuality to be stifled. And this reflects on her conception of what role a father should have in a daughter’s maturation. “You want the boys to look at you? I cannot allow that!”
Jesus H Christ what are you trying to do? “Kathryn Jean Lopez” and “bikini” should never, ever be mentioned in the same sentence.
I had nothing to do with it.
The burqini
For those who don’t click on the link, that seems to be K-Lo’s ENTIRE piece posted above. It’s not a summary!
Our society is being overwhelmed by a tidal wave of obscene behavior and smutty imagery. I have recently become aware of a new foreign musical group know as ‘The Beatles’, whose shamelessly lascivious songs are incessantly broadcast over radio stations and beamed into our very own living rooms.
Well, shake it up, baby, now,
Twist and shout.
Cmon cmon, cmon, cmon, baby, now,
Come on and work it on out.
This lewdness must end! After being continually bombarded by such filth, I find I have no choice but to blow my entire paycheck on Japanese reptile latex bondage porn DVDs.
I’m glad to see that we’ve solved all of America’s woes and have time to focus on the evils of beachwear.
No, no, no. Don’t get clever with this: K-Lo is nothing like the men who put woman in burqas (whether or not they actually have any men in their lives, let alone whether they’ve had it forced on them).
One is about subordinating women’s sexuality to male desire, explicitly turning skin-exposing women into unconditionally sexual objects; the other is about subordinating women’s sexuality to filthy Balak Hoseyn Osamas.
The difference couldn’t be more clear.
Because there’s nothing creepy at all about a middle-aged-man taking a bunch of 16-year-old girls shopping for bikinis. Nothing at all.
Does This Burqa Make Me Look Fat?
Will it billow over my head when I jump off the diving board?
The fact is, I’m outraged that Clif is going to the beach to ogle bikini-clad teenagers.
Another commentary on the vast ideological differences between good judeo christian white americans and the horrible muslim arab scum that want to force us to live according to their primitive rules…
mikey
Women who were never good-looking become even more bitter towards the young ones who are as they enter middle age and realize that, even though they weren’t good looking in youth, that was as good as it was ever going to get for them, and they wasted those best years hating on all the girls their age who were better-looking instead of making the most of their brief window of opportunity when they looked the best they were ever going to look.
K-Lo exhibits said behavoir on a predictably regular schedule. It’s quite sad.
The fact is, girls are too promiscious and exhibihthionist these days. They should save this lavascisous display for their husbands, and if the muslims get their way and add USA to the Caliphate (as all liberals wish), they will have little choice in the matter. Do they really want that?
Goddam it, always with the comment-eating.
This shit had better get back in order soon. 🙁
The fact is, K-Lo is just jealous that no clothing apparel on her of any kind whatsoever will ever draw the kind of attention from guys that she would want. Just speculation on how exactly she maintains that ground-shaking heft.
You may now yell at me about “looksism” if you’re so inclined.
Jennifer nails it. This is really pathetic, aside from all the other ways the other’s have pointed out its craptastic nature, its nothing more than miserable self hate projected onto innocent young girls. K lo needs some loving–not in a sexual and sexist way but she really just needs to get right with herself and her life on some deep level.
aimai
Women who were never good-looking become even more bitter towards the young ones who are as they enter middle age and realize that, even though they weren’t good looking in youth, that was as good as it was ever going to get for them, and they wasted those best years hating on all the girls their age who were better-looking instead of making the most of their brief window of opportunity when they looked the best they were ever going to look.
Sure, there’s that, but- I have an aunt who looks pretty similar to K-Lo, and my aunt doesn’t talk or act like that.
Another commentary on the vast ideological differences between good judeo christian white americans and the horrible muslim arab scum that want to force us to live according to their primitive rules…
Hehindeed. Near as I can figure it, they see it like this: God is, say, Eisenhower and Allah is, oh, Wilhelm Keitel. Even if they’re ordering their soldiers to do the exact same shit, it’s all about who you serve.
Poor K-Lo – She’s turned the Updike’s “A & P” on its head and made Mr. Lengel the hero.
Wait! Maybe when she grows up she can be MRS. Lengel! She already has that “sad-Sunday-School-Superintendent stare”.
Do I hear wedding bells?!?! Oh wait, that’s my cellphone…
Wait a sec, Jennifer, that’s quite a generalization. I’ve never been good-looking but young girls’ prettiness doesn’t bother me – I know that I’ve been out of the competition for at least thirty years.
But can we stop mocking K-Lo for her looks already? It just feeds into the societal sickness of teaching women that unless you’re hot, you’re not a worthwhile human being. Her opinions are enough fodder for snark.
And if she reads this, I’d like to point out, from one mutt to another, that a pleasant expression and genuine concern for others go a long way to way to offset the negatives of looks.
Hot K-Lo on Caroline Glick action.
Oh dear, this Glick charter actually thinks the present Israeli is left wing.
wordpress is the strapless bikini of the internets !!
Sure, there’s that, but- I have an aunt who looks pretty similar to K-Lo, and my aunt doesn’t talk or act like that.
Yeah; I’ve got an aunt even fatter, uglier, and crazier than she is, and yet she’s remarkably positive about things and wonderfully happy about children. She steals shit and she’s had 40 jobs in her life, but she’s been happily married for my entire lifetime, has four grandchildren by her horrible daughter, and is basically good to people.
I don’t get how someone like Lopez gets this kind of chip on her shoulder. My Aunt Terri has had a miserable life but she’s enjoyed it just fine, and never goes into some kind of apoplectic fit over darkies or whores. Jesus.
atheist – well, your aunt is clearly a much better person than K-Lo, one whose whole outlook on life wasn’t tied up in her looks and how she was the victim of the better-looking and it just wasn’t fair.
What I said in my previous comment was a gross overgeneralization. Of course not all women who were never good-looking are bitter like this. Likewise, there are both formerly and currently good-looking middle aged women who are bitter, though you don’t see the bitterness directed at the cute young things. But I well recall from my early career that the people I encountered or worked with who were the most difficult, hateful even, were uniformly middle-aged women who clearly had never been beautiful or even cute when young. My friends reported the same experience.
wordpress…… the bikini of the internets
BREAKING NEWS (Like the WInd)
Must credit Roger Ailes (via guest blogger Anthony Cartouche):
Jeff Godlstein has left Protein Wisdom.
P.S. Further credit to RonB and some appropriate pics.
HTML, is it time yet to cue up Part II?
But can we stop mocking K-Lo for her looks already? It just feeds into the societal sickness of teaching women that unless you’re hot, you’re not a worthwhile human being. Her opinions are enough fodder for snark.
Oh please. We ruthlessly mock the looks of the male wingnuts all the time. These are the people after all who still mock the fact that Al Gore gained some wait in recent years. These are the people that mock Hillary Clinton’s completely natural facial wrinkles of a normal woman in her later-middle age and say in web-ads, “Do you want to look at this face for several years?”
I agree with the mockery of people’s looks being a negative and irrelevant practice. But you do have to fight fire with fire. I’m sure you’d be just as objecting to my saying that Tony Blankley looks like Jabba the Hut.
OMG, “wait” should have been “weight”. I guess I need my coffee..
Is Jeff Goldstein the one whose grill got turned over? Or am I thinking of the Minnesota guy with the obsession about Target?
I think both spellings have some merit, Number Two.
…as will talent, a sense of humor, charm, a non-grating voice, absence of noxious body odor… and, ahm… OK, we’re just rubbing it in at this point.
“But can we stop mocking K-Lo for her looks already? It just feeds into the societal sickness of teaching women that unless you’re hot, you’re not a worthwhile human being. Her opinions are enough fodder for snark.”
I for one would not like K-lo anymore if she were attractive. In fact, I’d probably like her less since I kinda feel sorry for her as it is.
“This lewdness must end! After being continually bombarded by such filth, I find I have no choice but to blow my entire paycheck on Japanese reptile latex bondage porn DVDs.”
Me to! When will we finally be freed from the cruel madness of Liberal Fascism?!
The mere thought of K-Lo’s billows of dead-white, flaccid flesh tightly tied, like a roasting sheep for the spit, ought to be enough to drive any man of taste and distinction to a monastery…
“But can we stop mocking K-Lo for her looks already? It just feeds into the societal sickness of teaching women that unless you’re hot, you’re not a worthwhile human being. Her opinions are enough fodder for snark.”
if she’d shut her piggy snout, I’d never mention her again, ever.
Scott, you need wikiwingnutopedia.
Ace o’ Spades got his grill turned over in a hurry cane, Jeff Godlstein is the formerly?? unemployed parasite/cock-slapper.
The advice is well-meant, but K-Lo is a professional right-wing commentator – pretty much by definition her livelihood depends on her not having concern for others.
Ok, i read the article which apparently puts me one up on K-Lo.
No kidding — the mom she refers to not only doesn’t provide financial help, she actually stops her kid from paying $78 for a swimsuit. But somehow K-Lo had to drag that weird reference to dads in there. Totally agree with zuzu’s petals — how creepy is it to imagine your dad coming along on a bikini-shopping trip with you and your 16-year-old friends?
Oh FUCK!
I need wikiwingnutopedia, meself.
It was cornfederate Yanqui who got his grill turned over.
I think one-piece bathing suits are more appealing anyway.
Besides, the more covered-up K-Lo is, the better (I know, cheap shot).
Ace o’ Spades got his grill turned over in a hurry cane
I am soooooooo disappointed.
“Ace o’ Spades got his grill turned over in a hurry cane, Jeff Godlstein is the formerly?? unemployed parasite/cock-slapper.”
No, no it was Treason in Defense of Slavery Yankee who was begging people to pay for a new grill because his got knocked over (not even dented!)
Ace o’ Spades got his grill turned over in a hurry cane
ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© for the win!
(Did I do that right?)
The fact is, fathers should be doing more to protect their daughters virtue, maybe we wouldn’t be in such a mess with them using so many sex and drugs. A daughters purity is worth fighting for to preserve. Purity should be pledged until wedding day. This is what sepereates us from animals like Muslims who kill their daughters.
(Did I do that right?)
Everybody for the win but thunder!!!
Righteous Bubba said,
July 27, 2008 at 18:33
(Did I do that right?)
Everybody for the win but thunder!!!
D00d i fixed it before you even got outta bed.
if the well being of the nation is dependent on my willingness to go clothes shopping with anyone, including my daughter and her giggly friends, then we are doomed.
Yeesh. Godlstein’s whining over in the “so long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, adieu” thread makes David Frum look like he’s got a stiff upper lip.
Just a taste: When he runs a free site for 7 years and gets to feeling overwhelmed by the responsibility of having to put up daily posts or else constantly feel indebted to the guest bloggers for keeping things alive while he can’t seem to muster the will, he can lecture me on ego. Personally, I think it’s more guilt. But then, I’m just a dick and a quitter. I mean, I OWE YOU!
Yeah, Snorg, Woody, et al., you’re right as far as that goes. I still get a bit defensive about criticizing people for things they don’t have much control over – looks, height, skin color, etc. This is the wrong forum for discussing it, though. I should have posted: “Hey, K-Lo, lighten up already! (oops, bad choice of words) “
D00d i fixed it before you even got outta bed.
I don’t get get outta bed, I ascend to graceful verticality.
Fuckin’ WordPress!
K-Lo’s pissy because she can’t pull off wearing a bikini and knows it. She’s petty about it.
K-Lo is quite insulting to fathers as well as the mother. She regulates dads to being vagina guardians defending against the icky penis. As if men have no clue how to raise their kids to be confident and responsible when it comes to normal human interactions.
The whole meme of hide the females so the icky males with penises will miraculously learn to have sex and flirtations with trees is quite the mind warp. It is difficult to determine which K-Lo despises more men or women.
Rugosa – I wasn’t criticizing K-Lo for her looks. I was criticizing her for her attitudes. I did reference the fact that she’s not a particularly attractive woman, but that was just stating a fact – one which, in her case, I believe is a large part of the basis for her attitudes.
Damn right. It oughta be like youth soccer.
Everybody who shows up gets a trophy…
mikey
No, no, no, Confederate Yankee got his char-coal grill blown slightly asunder, leading to one of my favorite SN posts of all time. I loved how he never even checked to see if the thing still worked before pleading hardship. I’m guessing that Jeff Goldstain (I’m disappointed that never caught on) is still a leech on the ass of society and his wife, as he is drugged out of his mind on antidepressants to the point that his posts don’t even have words any more- they’re just ellipses seperated by multiple line breaks.
If K-Lo dared to appear on a beach in a bikini, most of the beachgoers there would run into the surf to take their chances with sharks or jam sand into their eyes to stop the pain…
K-Lo comes off as just a whiny old frump who was the chubby little girl that all the popular girls in high school made fun of! She’s never grown out of those childhood rejections…
The stupid really hurts some time!
You’ve not heard the news today, tb?
Comment by Dan Collins on 7/26 @ 4:19 pm #
Aw, shit.
I hope that find a way to use your great talents to best effect, Jeff. And thank you. Also, damn it. And blessings on you and your family.
*SNIFF*
#Gary Ruppert said,
July 27, 2008 at 18:32
The fact is, fathers should be doing more to protect their daughters virtue, maybe we wouldn’t be in such a mess with them using so many sex and drugs. A daughters purity is worth fighting for to preserve. Purity should be pledged until wedding day. This is what sepereates us from animals like Muslims who kill their daughters.
This fellow speaks with surprising authority for someone with cheetoh-stains on his tighty-whiteys and a bunk-bed in his mom’s basement laundry room, doesn’t he?
Man, between the Quran – mandated right of passage killings of young muslims and the muslim fathers killing their daughters, it’s kind of hard to understand how these awful muslims can be such a threat. Hell, in a generation there’ll only be about eleven of ’em, each barricaded in his personal bunker while all the others, for various ritual reasons, try to kill them…
mikey
maybe we wouldn’t be in such a mess with them using so many sex and drugs.
How exactly does one use sex? I think I’ve been doing it wrong!
And I like italics.
“The fact is, I’m outraged that Clif is going to the beach to ogle bikini-clad teenagers without inviting the rest of us.”
Fixed.
How exactly does one use sex?
As a weapon, of course.
[F]or heaven’s sake. This Washington Post piece on three 16-year-old girls shopping for bikinis in Tyson’s Corner is begging for a dad to be on the scene …
With purity rings! And oaths! To “cover my daughter as her authority and protection in the area of purity.” By God!
Oh, and OFFA MY LAWN!
War Criminal News.
Chet Guinn, a retired Methodist Minister, was among those led away.
“To be silent when major crimes are being committed against all humanity makes us accomplices,” Guinn told reporters just before his prearranged arrest, which took place when protesters stepped past a gate.
Chet Guinn is correct.
No, I know what you meant Jennifer. And you’re basically right. I don’t know why I get so pedantic sometimes. Maybe when I comment while in a bad mood. Sorry.
This Washington Post piece on three 16-year-old girls shopping for bikinis in Tyson’s Corner is begging for a dad to be on the scene.
Why would a Washington Post article need a dad on the scene? The writer must be female and thus need male supervision?
Jennifer – I wasn’t criticizing your criticism of her attitudes, but your attribution of them to a generalization about unattractive middle-aged women. Of whom I am one, so there! We agree she’s a douche.
Actually I agree with Jennifer… But let’s phrase it another way to make clear why; I’ve often noticed that those who blame blacks and immigrants for taking their jobs, and carry that sense of bitterness and grievance around constantly, are often the most useless at their chosen profession, and will never be half as talented or hard working as said immigrants.
But just because racists ARE racist doesn’t make it the right attitude to have; but it also doesn’t change the fact they hold that attitude due to a driving sense of insecurity.
So too with body image; It doesn’t make it right that girls should judge themselves by attractiveness, nor that men should either, but it is a fact of life that people do, and that they carry their bitterness of not measuring up with them too. In Miss Lopez’ case it’s also probably driven by a sense that to be a true Catholic, she couldn’t even have the fun everyone around her was having even if she were good looking for that matter… Life has handed her one giant lemon, but hidden the aid.
Can’t trust anyone with a vagina to go clothes shopping without male supervision, apparently. I wonder who supervises K-Lo when she has to go pick up the latest ugly conservative businesswear?
I feel kind of sorry for K-Lo. Her writing always tries to spout the wingnut line, but she’s so tone-deaf she always messes it up somehow. Thus we get the lovely image of Dad going bikini shopping with a bunch of teenage girls, etc. She can’t even manage to blend in with this crowd of losers.
Come on. “A choice” is a thing you face when you have two or more things going on in your life that take time to do. For most people, typical Goldsteinian “creative questions” like deciding whether to go to the bathroom or piss where you sit don’t need to take all day. And God knows it doesn’t take any time or thought to write a Goldstein post. Look:
There. That took all of three seconds. So this “choice” business is pure bullshit. Like, if you’re going to give up and just watch crappily-recorded Passions videotapes all day just say so. Don’t lie.
But can we stop mocking K-Lo for her looks already? It just feeds into the societal sickness of teaching women that unless you’re hot, you’re not a worthwhile human being. Her opinions are enough fodder for snark.
Oh please. We ruthlessly mock the looks of the male wingnuts all the time, blah blah blah.
Oh no, not again. How many times do we have to have this conversation?
Mocking males’ looks IS NOT THE SAME THING as mocking females’ looks. Lather, rinse, repeat, repeat, repeat.
And that goes at least twice for you, woody token librul guy.
she’s not a particularly attractive woman, but that was just stating a fact – one which, in her case, I believe is a large part of the basis for her attitudes.
Jennifer’s got it right. The woman is abominable; her looks are irrelevant, although central to her pointed head.
For those who don’t click on the link, that seems to be K-Lo’s ENTIRE piece posted above. It’s not a summary!
The one thing left off from Lopez’s original post is the link to her June 2008 interview with Kathleen Parker entitled “Hail to the Male.” In that exchange Lopez asks:
Her priggishness is daunting.
The modern bikini as swimsuit is from 1946, and bikini-like garment depiction in art go back far longer. Maybe K Lo can bemoan the evils of National Geographic’s photos of topless women next, or perhaps libertine Greek urns, Egyptian papyri, and Paleolithic art.
*AHEM*
Good afternoon, ladies, gentlemen and otherwise – gendered fellow human beings. I have a brief statement. mikey will not be weighing in on this particular discussion. He has learned from bitter experience that either there is no right position to take, of if there is, he is blindly unaware of what it is. While he does maintain certain opinions regarding the relative attractiveness of Katherine Jean, and, for that matter, her body mass index, he is completely unwilling to offer them in a public forum. And most importantly, should someone photoshop a sammich of gargantuan proportions into her possession, mikey will immediately issue a statement condemning such pointless and childish mockery. Uh, immediately after saving it to local storage that is.
Due to his position as a “liberal dude”, and a white one at that, mikey knows that his opinions on these matters may be considered inherently evil by those who oppose the patriarchy. And he believes that to be regrettable, even if it is beyond his control.
We believe that we can reach a near-universal consensus that KJ Lopez is a massive dickwad, a racist and a proponent of many positions antithetical to any modern view of how a democratic society should function, and we believe this consensus is enough to bind us together, no matter our minor differences on matters such as eyebrows, swimsuits or sammiches.
A reminder. Tomorrow we will be announcing our official position on Bon Jovi.
That concludes our statement. We will not be taking questions. Thank you all for coming…
mikey’s spokesperson
A reminder. Tomorrow we will be announcing our official position on Bon Jovi.
There’s plenty of room left to weigh in on Jeff Godlstein’s
retirementgetting a real job.Is Tyson’s Corner a real place ? Like Mayberry ?
Totally O/T, but some dickwad just shot up a Universalist church here in K-town Tenn. I was away for the weekend and drove by the scene on my way home. Police cars, people milling about, but some of the churches down here in God’s country are usually so packed the police have to direct traffic when services let out, so I figured that’s what it was. Got home and heard about it on CNN. At least one dead, 7 at the hospital. Happened as children were presenting a play. Scuttlebutt is the shooter chose the Universalist church cuz they make it a point to welcome gays and immigrants, legal or not. Sounds like at least one of my university colleagues may have been there. No word on him yet.
Sounds like at least one of my university colleagues may have been there. No word on him yet.
Good luck there. Hope all turns out as well as it can under the circumstances. Beware of scuttlebutt.
Tim (TOO) “real” is relative. It’s a very crowded part of Fairfax county (west of DC, inside the beltway) full of stores, restaurants and lots and lots of offices (govt and beltway bandits alike). Most hours of the day it’s traffic hell. There are two malls, both large and multi-leveled. Tysons II is where you go if your first car is a Jag and your kid drives a Mercedes. Tysons I (where the story takes place) keeps getting bigger and bigger. It’s a three or four level mall designed with the middle and upper-middle class customer in mind. It’s Bloomingdales not JC Pennys. I go there only for the movie theater (which is new and kind of nice) Saw Hellboy II there yesterday (not bad, 3 stars out of 5)
sophronia says:
I feel kind of sorry for K-Lo. Her writing always tries to spout the wingnut line, but she’s so tone-deaf she always messes it up somehow. Thus we get the lovely image of Dad going bikini shopping with a bunch of teenage girls, etc. She can’t even manage to blend in with this crowd of losers.
Nicely put. She’s like a high school girl aspiring to join the drama clique and hoping being stage manager will get her in.
I’d love to hide backstage and hear what Pantload, Ponnoru, and the rest of usual gang of idiots say about her. Or do they think she’s doing a fine job?
Ultimately, most of humanity’s most pressing issues can be traced directly back to greed or hate. Seems like we should be dealing with less of that at this point, not more.
Stay strong, MzN. If you break, you can’t help the tribe…
mikey
“maybe we wouldn’t be in such a mess with them using so many sex and drugs.”
Shouldn’t “sex” be plural? Sexim? Sexes? Or is “sex” plural for “sek”?
Once again Gary Ruppert’s awesome rhetorical powers have slain me.
shouldn’t that be “slowned” you ?
Lay off, K-Lo.
The poor thing.
Let’s get back to some of the slightly less pathetic wingnut commentators and their red herrings, false dichotomies, straw man arguments and other sophistries.
Making fun of K-Lo reminds me of the awful feeling I used to get back in elementary school when the other kids would make fun of the retarded girl who allgedly had sex with a St. Bernard.
The poor thing.
Also the poor creature.
dad accompanying daughters on bathing suit shopping missions=total perv.
bodes ill for daughters’ male choices in future. oh look, suzie picked a control freak who won’t let her out of the house, see her friends…what are those bruises on suzie’s arms?
Young ladies should have the modesty that our foremothers had, wearing black ankle-length, all-wool bathing costumes. As a nod to contemprary culture, however, I would suggest that these outfits be designed as crotchless, assless and having cut out circles on the chesticle area to allow the female breasts to “breathe” naturally.
In Washington did K-J-L
A strict non-pleasure dome decree
Where Bush, the sacred leader, fell
From heaven down to loser’s hell
And yet she did not see.
My 13 year-old daughter is a straight-A student, a Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do, and wears a bikini with Jolly Rogers printed on it. Yes, she picked it out, and I was NOT there with her.
She’s also been to Burning Man three times before she was 10, played the Maiden in a neo-pagan revival of the Rites of Brigid, draws female super-hero forms in a style reminiscent of Boris Vallejo and Frank Frazetta, and when she finds alien tentacle hantai-porn on the Internet, she calls me over to laugh at it with her.
And for all this, she has no desire for teenage sex, “hooker” fashions or even dating. She thinks her “boy crazy” schoolmates are stupid, saying she has plenty of time for boys after she gets accepted to UC Berkeley or Stanford.
My advice to parents of teenage girls: take them to Burning Man. That gets them over the “forbidden fruit” fascination with drugs, nudity and sex real quickly.
Jeff Godlstein has left Protein Wisdom.
Actually, and predictably, he hasn’t. Someone left a comment insulting him & his kid in his Goodbye thread, and now he and his gang are posting the names, phone numbers, and street addresses of suspects. The not-departed is saying he wants to fight this person.
It’s pretty psychotic.
“Making fun of K-Lo reminds me of the awful feeling I used to get back in elementary school when the other kids would make fun of the retarded girl who allegedly had sex with a St. Bernard.”
Yeah, “allegedly.” 😉
OK, but here’s what’s wrong with this article…You get K-Lo within 100 yards of any body of water and you are going to see grizzled old salts wearing maniacal grins furiously sharpening their harpoons because they see the great white whale a-comin’. They want the one Captn Ahab could not get.
K-Lo? Bikini?
fap fap fap
Ewwww… kobie just ruined the thread.
Joe Max,
My bosses daughter’s like that. Every year, the bossman throws a bacchanal at Christmas, and this girl’s seen the cream of Athens townie get shit-hammered, give each other dildos as presents, and gobble mushrooms in the coke room. She’s the most level-headed, mature teenager/young adult/hell, human being I’ve met.
A co-worker of ours grew up in a very strict, fundy household, and is getting ready to move out of her folks’ place and, I quote, “go buck wild”. Whatever that entails, and I’m sorta interested, personally.
The K from ‘Lopanema
Short and squat and covered and stupid
The K from ‘Lopanema goes walking
And when she passes, each one she passes goes – aaaargh…
When she walks, she thunders like Mac Truck
swings and sways and stomps and yollers
and when she passes, each one she passes goes – splat!
(ooh) but I watch her No Sadly
How can I tell her I
love hercough sputter ahem no…I would excise my heart gladly
when each day she rolls to the sea
in her head-to-toe burqa for me
Short and squat and covered and loathesome
The K from ‘Lopanema goes romping
And when she passes, I blargh – but she doesn’t see (doesn’t see)
(she just doesnt see, she never sees me,…)
MzNicky sed, “Mocking males’ looks IS NOT THE SAME THING as mocking females’ looks. Lather, rinse, repeat, repeat, repeat.”
I don’t get it. Mocking stupidity is gender-free. Mocking ideology is gender-free. Why is there a difference between mocking K-Lo and the Doughboy’s mutual oversupply of adipose tissue?
Why is there a difference between mocking K-Lo and the Doughboy’s mutual oversupply of adipose tissue?
Because we men, collectively, just here recently, relatively speaking, were worth a shit beyond fuckability and/or/but not always making sure dinner’s on the goddamn table when we get home for work, ferchrissakes. Plus, and you gotta admit, we still live in a culture that values a woman’s gozongas over any actual ability. Doesn’t work that way with dudes, even fat dudes. You know Orsen Wells got all the nookie he could handle. I don’t understand why this is so goddamn difficult.
Rather, we men just here recently decided women were worth a shit here recently.
In the midst of his GBCW post, Jeff Godlstein outs a commenter for saying truly mean things about his son.
I hope no one is offended by the K from ‘Lopamena…
I agree with the mockery of people’s looks being a negative and irrelevant practice. But you do have to fight fire with fire.
Better, we should fight this particular fire with Zappa.
“What’s the ugliest
Part of your body?
What’s the ugliest
Part of your body?
Some say your nose
Some say your toes
But I think it’s YOUR MIND….”
Thanks Matt T. Well done. Plus I’m fresh out of Feminism 101 primers.
Fuck all of you liberal fucking pickle sucking fucking douche bags who hate America and my son. I’ve got all your IP#s and I’m sooing you!
That’s objectively funny, Jeff.
Yawn….
mikey
kobie @ 1:31 – oh well, at least you didn’t call for “Rule 34”
OH SHI-
Matt T.: Athens townies? Athens GA or Athens OH??
Matt T.: Athens townies? Athens GA or Athens OH??
I’m pretty sure Matt T. lives in GA.
Oh well, wrong Athens then.
shouldn’t that be “slowned” you ?
Slpwnd, even. 🙂
Since nothing else is happening around these parts tonight.
Thought I might share the email I sent to the Obama campaign today.
If any of y’all wanna borrow from it, please feel free…
Obama email 7/27
Senator Obama, I have so much respect for your willingness to speak honestly with your constituency. Why have you chosen to pander so venally on Iran?
You KNOW Iran is not a threat to America, nor is she a threat to Israel. You KNOW that all the evidence is Iran is not developing nuclear weapons. You must know that under the NPT, which unlike Israel and India, Iran is a signatory, Iran is perfectly entitled to develop the nuclear fuel cycle,enrich uranium and research and use nuclear technology for peaceful purposes. In fact, under the NPT, the IAEA and other nuclear nations are actually obligated to ASSIST Iran in the research and development of peaceful nuclear power. If anyone is in breach of the NPT, it is the US, Russia, England and France for not living up to their obligations to reduce nuclear stockpiles.
Indeed, a man of your knowledge and grasp of the issues must understand that to demand a negotiating partner essentially “lose” the negotiation merely to be allowed to participate in a negotiation is unfair and frankly, ridiculous. It is a negotiating position calculated to lead to confrontation, a position I’d expect from Dick Cheney, but one I am deeply disappointed to see from you.
I’d really like to know why you feel you cannot be honest with the American people in matters of Iran’s nuclear development program. Do you really think that the Americans that advocate killing Muslims for no other reason than they ARE Muslims are ever going to vote for you?
I was disgusted by your pandering capitulation on FISA, and your dishonesty around Iran is not helping. It is time you went back to being the candidate who could clearly be seen as the one providing a path back to sustainable democracy. Whoever is advising you is failing you badly. You can do better. We can do better.
Yes we can…
mikey
stop making fun of jeff goldstein! he quit blogging today! and now who’s going to slap our faces with his cock?
My cat’s breath smells like cat food!
The modern bikini as swimsuit is from 1946…
And is named after a Pacific atoll that was the site of a very large U.S. nuclear weapons test.
The modern bikini is easier to remove.
This is where I met the leprechaun. He told me to burn things.
Our society is being overwhelmed by a tidal wave of obscene behavior and smutty imagery. I have recently become aware of a new foreign musical group know as ‘The Beatles’, whose shamelessly lascivious songs are incessantly broadcast over radio stations and beamed into our very own living rooms.
Hehindizzle. Our good buddy Mark Noonan is all over “permanent teenagers living a rock n’ roll deathstyle” (his hilarious turn of phrase, not mine).
Forget bikinis. You want offensive? Try a Speedo!
(especially on men over 50)
Lesley said,
July 28, 2008 at 4:49
Forget bikinis. You want offensive? Try a Speedo!
(especially on men over 50)
Banana Hammock, bay-bee!
I wonder if Novak has one.
(especially on men over 50)
Whew.
Anyway, Andy Rooney is still alive. Maybe somebody could read the list of ingredients on 60 Minutes and figure out just what the heck that Andy Rooney is doing in there, but I don’t think anybody reads that ingredients list anyway.
Hi, Super Nintendo Thunder!
Jeff Godlstein said,
July 28, 2008 at 4:59
Hi, Super Nintendo Thunder!
I’ve heard that if you chant “Godlstein, Godlstein, Godlstein”, he shows up in your comments.
Me fail
Englishgrad school? That’s unpossible!Oh well, wrong Athens then.
Well, depends. Right now, it’s goddamn hot in Athens, Georgia.
Banana Hammock, bay-bee!
Up here, we call ’em ‘Grape Smugglers.’
In Novak’s case, “Rasins in the Sun”.
Raisins, damnit.
Rightwingsnarkle: In fact, Bikini was the site of one of the first H-bomb tests. It’s not clear to me that liberals should approve of bikinis until they change the name.
More to the point, one-piece suits cut generously on the flanks are far sexier, IMHO, than bikinis anyway. They’re also, shall we say, more (small-d) democratic.
You want offensive? Try a Speedo!
Try naked Italians on Kuta beach during a Hindu ceremony honoring Bali bomb victims.
Okay, not offensive. How about awkward?
Women who were never good-looking become even more bitter towards the young ones who are as they enter middle age and realize that, even though they weren’t good looking in youth, that was as good as it was ever going to get for them, and they wasted those best years hating on all the girls their age who were better-looking instead of making the most of their brief window of opportunity when they looked the best they were ever going to look…
On the other hand, sometimes being “good looking” can warp a woman’s mind as badly as being “ugly” (read: not close enough to the prevailing cultural standards) can. For instance, I could make a good argument that the difference between Maureen Dowd and Molly Ivins is that Maureen was/is, by her own frequent self-assessment, “a pretty young thing”, “cute”, and “sexy”. The late great Ms. Ivins, on the other hand, said that once she realized “no six-foot-tall teenage girl was ever going to be elected homecoming queen at my Texas high school”, she could say, do, write whatever impermissable things she felt. Young women (still) have a saleability factor for the Power Elite, who tend (still) to be older men; being of an age to, in anthropologist-speak, visibly advertise peak fertility is a real advantage, but it’s an advantage with a shelf-life, and it takes upkeep. Batting one’s eyes and flashing one’s pert, shapely bosoms can get you that all-important first big break, but the hell of it is, once you take that advantage you’re never sure if you could have done it without your bosoms, which will require greater efforts & stronger corsetry to keep pert & shapely every year. (Hell, just allocating calories for cosmopolitinis on the stringent diet Dowd maintains would sour a warmer personality than she ever demonstrated.) But those of us who’ve had to rely, not necessarily by choice, on our wits and dedication for both career and social advancement can at least be sure that we’ve saved a lot of time and probably quite a few thousand dollars *not* having to live up to the prevailing top-of-the-media standards.
Incidentally, before any of you Young Things out there open a vein, I should point out that quite a few women are more attractive at 35 or 45 than they were at 15 or 25. And I don’t mean just Bea Arthur; Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis, for instance, was a nondescript young thing as a debutante, and Meryl Streep was no Marilyn Monroe. And whatever Helen Mirren looks like in a bikini now, that wasn’t what got her to the place in her career where she could earn an Oscar. Quite a few women who’ve worked hard to be or stay Pretty Enough come into a whole new level of personal attractiveness when they eventually decide to devote all that energy to pursuits with a longer shelf life.
(And eventually those of us who’ve cherished our sense of humor and enjoyment of all life’s pleasures reach Nanny Ogg status, where people find us adorable for behaving the same way that got us in so much trouble back in high school.)
P.S. Am I really the only person who wondered if some part of K-Lo’s problems with other women’s looks began when she was 16 and her father went swimsuit-shopping with her? Especially if daddy’s veto was expressed along the lines of “Thank God I’ll never have to worry about ‘my little girl’ showing up in slut-wear like that”?
Great link. Shorter Mark Noonan: ‘Stop all that fucking or millions more will die!!!’
The man does come up with some great lines…
“The sexual catastrophe we see around us…would have been averted had people just paid heed to Paul VI.”
“…the indiscriminate pile of depraved popular culture”
“sex is only responsible when it is contained within the bounds of marriage”
There’s also this intriguing glimpse of Noonan’s career as a horndog: “don’t think for a moment that I am standing on high as some pure man – heck no! I jumped into the sexual revolution feet first as soon as I got the opportunity.“
Shorter Mark Noonan: ‘Stop all that fucking or millions more will die!!!’
The man does come up with some great lines…
The sexual catastrophe we see around us…would have been averted had people just paid heed to Paul VI.
the indiscriminate pile of depraved popular culture
sex is only responsible when it is contained within the bounds of marriage
There’s also this intriguing glimpse of Noonan’s career as a horndog: “don’t think for a moment that I am standing on high as some pure man – heck no! I jumped into the sexual revolution feet first as soon as I got the opportunity.”
(@#&%!!**%! wordpress!!!)
Beauty is only skin deep but ugly goes to the bone . . . Ms (Miss?) Lopez’s attitudes are ugly and her physical appearance — indicative of poor self-control and responsibility — is fair game. If these blockheads want to claim moral superiority while stuffing themselves with Cheetos and Mountain Dew, they should expect to be called on it.
I cheer all women who feel comfortable in bikinis. I wouldn’t be caught dead in one because I’m vain and care what people think. People do judge and make fun of those less fortunate and well…I don’t happen to have a thick skin and there’s no point in sitting on the beach feeling like shit because you’re hyper aware of your own flaws. Personally, I would love it if those top to bottom Victorian suits were all the rage. It would be a God send for those whose vanity and sensitivity prevent us from leaping about the beach enjoying ourselves like everybody else.
K-Lo’s prudishness may emanate from some deep self-hatred, who knows? But there are plenty of women who look like K-Lo and wear bikinis, spandex, and other revealing garb and don’t care what anyone thinks.
Is wrong to wonder if LucyAnn ever took young Jonah shopping for a Speedo?
-GSD
“Thanks Matt T. Well done. Plus I’m fresh out of Feminism 101 primers.”
No, I’m not buying it. That isn’t Feminism 101, it’s Princess 101. You want equality, let’s see some balance. Tell me what is off-limits for snarking a male, but not for a female.
PS, “Humor isn’t pretty.” (Steve Martin)
GSD:
It’s not wrong to wonder it, but it’s a mortal sin to post it.
I’m going to go scrub my brain with a Brillo pad now.
Completely OT — but I’m in Seattle for a couple of days, and intend to spend some time tomorrow evening sampling brew-pub bevvies. Probably at Elysium, unless I can be bothered with catching the bus down to Pyramid. But I am open to suggestions and recommendations. Proximity to the Moore Hotel is a factor.
I promise not to wear a bikini.
Was one of those Jeff Goldsteins the real one?
Is there such a thing?
And if she reads this, I’d like to point out, from one mutt to another, that a twinkle in the eye and willingness to swallow go a long way to way to offset the negatives of looks.
Note: I’m at the beach this weekend
And are you wearing a bikini?
Anne Laurie said,
July 28, 2008 at 6:23
Hats off to Anne Laurie, who said it far clearer than I ever could.
Plus, I’ve always felt kinda weird in a bikini (not that I’ve worn one in centuries), because even though I had a pretty fine bod in my yoof, I got that bod through swimming training. And swimming training required Speedos (they were invented here, dammit, and I’m proud of ’em!). Every time I tried to go in the water wearing something other than Speedos, I felt like the damn things would just wash off.
This feeling was reinforced by the occasions on which the damn things did wash off, or nearly so. I have cringeworthy memories of leaping out of the ocean to find that my bikini top hadn’t. There’s no feeling quite like the one you get when you’ve realised you’ve just shown your boosies to several thousand strangers.
I’ll stick with the Speedos, if it’s all the same to you.
Gals should be respectably sexy when a gentleman caller is in attendance. A sort of Ann Coulter restraint and Michelle Malkin wholesomeness. Those are gals who know how titillate a young swain at an abstinence support meeting.
When the Rubberbands of Righteousness are twisted around the young healthy scrotums by the Handmaidens of Discipline. Then when the Hot Sealing Wax of Absolution is applied it will not be some barely dressed strumpet in the mind of young Biff or Brad but a frilly young filly saving herself who is not a sibling.
Anne Laurie, as usual, nails it with skill and grace.
Argonaut: As I said, I’m fresh out of Introductory Feminism tracts. If you’re seriously that clueless about cultural sexism — and your observations, unfortunately, indicate that you are — you need much more information that I can provide in the context of a comment at a blog. (Clue No. 1: Drop the “Princess” business.) Plus it would probably set off yet another tiresome flame war, which can be excruciatingly boring.
However, I’d be happy to recommend some reading materials.
Hoosier X said,
July 28, 2008 at 8:54
Was one of those Jeff Goldsteins the real one?
No.
You can tell the real thing: the shorter version is still several paragraphs too long.
P.S. More pasty.
No, I’m not buying it. That isn’t Feminism 101, it’s Princess 101. You want equality, let’s see some balance. Tell me what is off-limits for snarking a male, but not for a female
Also, black people are the real racists because they are the only ones talking about race. Plus, they say n*gger, but won’t let white people say it. Discrimination!
I believe you’ll find that the converse, however, does not necessarily hold.
If this is what happens when she reads an article about bikinis, I shudder to think of what her reaction would be if she ever got hold of a Liz Phair album.
That’s it, this means war. How dare she knock the bikini! ARGHHH!! My favorite article of clothing.
Thunder, perfect 1st comment…..LOL!
Mary, how is it that some of those “burkini” models end up looking like Oompa Loompas in those suits? How odd.
Jennie–or PJ Harvey; I think 50 Foot Queenie would give her a heart attack as she sputters her last words, “Obey the menfolk”!
Well, maybe the women will luck out and we’ll all turn gay.
Lex, here’s even more disturbing Obama news.
I see we had yet another debate about the awful awfulness of lookism.
I am so sorry I missed this.
Having forsworn fat-jokes and lookism well over a week ago, I feel perfectly morally justified in the following statement:
You can tell K-Lo is ugly even with your eyes closed.
OR, if that doesn’t piss you off enough
Rule 34 ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Otherwise known as his little raisin muffins of love.
Just to be clear, as a general principle I would not call either a woman or a man fat (or ugly or stupid) because it is hurtful. However, I fail to see why it is *worse* to use it on a woman, just because the woman allegedly would be more insulted than a man. Even if that’s true, pain is pain. Elevating a woman’s right to remain unharmed by fat jokes to ‘feminism’ is ridiculous. Feminism is advocacy of the rights of women *based on the theory of equality of the sexes*.
Plus, this is a blog dedicated to snark. Fat jokes are coin of the realm. I shall now retire until someone comes up with the insult that hurts men more than women, at which point I, a man, will manfully assault an altar-person.
Argonaut, women are judged by their appearance to a significantly greater degree than men in this society. You don’t hear people screaming “Fat! Fat! FAT!!!” at a guy who’s 5 pounds overweight. Since men really aren’t subjected to that level of scrutiny, it just makes us look like smug, bullying assholes when we do it.
Yeah, it’s a double standard. You may not like it, but that doesn’t make it any less true.
“I jumped into the sexual revolution feet first as soon as I got the opportunity.”
i.e., “The day I found that bottle of Jergens, whole new worlds opened up to me.”
Now you have thought about Mark Noonan gratifying himself. My work here is done.
Site notes: I followed up Simba’s Ettish comment and it didn’t make it into the RSS feed although it did make it to the page.
PS, “Humor isn’t pretty.” (Steve Martin)
Well, for one, you’re not Steve Martin. For two, if you make a joke that is sexist, you don’t get a free pass from being sexist just because it’s a joke, okay? For three, it’s got nothing to do with who’s “more insulted” or “more sensitive”, it’s got to do with a culture that’s sexist and anti-woman almost to the core and, as I said, we just got around to agreeing that, for example, that a woman might could actually be the fucking president of the country and not bust a gut laughing, or didn’t you notice. Hell, “she was asking for it” is still considered a legitimate defense against rape by a lot of dudes. There’s still a wage gap between men and women. For fuck’s sake, viagra’s covered by many health care plans while there’s a movement to allow pharmacists to refuse giving birth control if their skewered, dumbass take on religion forbids it. I really don’t understand what’s so complicated about this.
Personally, I say go ahead and make all the fat jokes you want. Just do me one favor and quit all the whining when someone calls you out if those jokes are sexist. You don’t get special dispensation just because this is a humor site, so be a man and quit your bellyaching. And maybe if you keep getting called out for sexist jokes, maybe you need to think about just where your head’s at. But for Elvis’ sake, quit asking for special favors.
“Just do me one favor and quit all the whining when someone calls you out if those jokes are sexist… etc etc etc”
I didn’t make any sexist jokes (I *asked* about allegedly sexist insults), so obviously I’m not whining about it. What I am seeing is a lot of pearl-clutching, and still no answer to my question.
An update on the shooting MzNicky mentioned: Surprise, surprise.
What I am seeing is a lot of pearl-clutching, and still no answer to my question.
Then you’re not looking, because it’s been answered several times. If you don’t like the answer you’re getting, then, say that, not that no one’s answered you.
Matt T., I think I have a new e-crush.
What I am seeing is a lot of pearl-clutching, and still no answer to my question.
You received an answer almost immediately to the fat jokes question.
In any case I’ll give a different, more functional answer for the site: you have to be really really funny to get away with a fat joke because most of them are completely lame. I myself reserve the right to make them – I’ll never forget the overall girth of politicians on Egyptian political posters as opposed to the skinny fuckers walking down the street and I think even in tubby Western countries there’s a point there – but in general I leave ’em alone, um, except for that “creature” crack above which I insist is about moral monstrosity only!!!
The very very funny Lawnguylander once made the excellent point that many folks who are entertaining and funny and share our interests get somewhat choked at such jokes and sometimes never come back: it’s not worth the loss of those folks to hold on to she-sits-around-the-house as some kind of golden principle of comedy.
Argonaut,
For what it’s worth, I was using the “royal you” and speaking to all whiny, thin-skinned dudes – particularly ones who break their arms slapping themselves on the back for being so liberal all the time – who bellyache about how unfair they can’t make sexist (or racist or homophobic or whatever) jokes when the poor white male is so oppressed that he can be made fun of. You just took shrapnel, is all. You got the only answer there is, and if you don’t like it, that’s not my problem.
annejumps,
Nah. I’m a horrible person. Ugly, too.
And Righteous Bubba is smarter than me, anyway, even if he does have questionable opinions about music and movies.
Hey, anyone here checked out the new Hold Steady album? Solid, if not exactly groundbreaking, stuff once again. And if there’s ever been a band that knew how to bring it on the album-closer, it’s those guys.
I’m usually too into list-making for my own good (already got a Best Of The Bush Administration mix in the ol’ iPod), but I’m still all over the place when it comes to the best of this year. I think in a few years we’ll realize just how spectacular 2007 was for music; this year seems a bit void of some era-definitive tunes. Which is fine, they can’t always be life-changing. So far I think Destroyer’s Trouble in Dreams and Dodos’ Visiter have moved me the most…with Dodos’ “Joe’s Waltz” probably being the best song I’ve heard all year. It’s July, though, so there’s always time for shattering earth in the fall.
Oh, right, the above quoted point. I guess what I mean to say is, well…
Hey, anyone here checked out the new Hold Steady album? Solid, if not exactly groundbreaking, stuff once again. And if there’s ever been a band that knew how to bring it on the album-closer, it’s those guys.
I’m usually too into list-making for my own good (already got a Best Of The Bush Administration mix in the ol’ iPod), but I’m still all over the place when it comes to the best of this year. I think in a few years we’ll realize just how spectacular 2007 was for music; this year seems a bit void of some era-definitive tunes. Which is fine, they can’t always be life-changing. So far I think Destroyer’s Trouble in Dreams and Dodos’ Visiter have moved me the most…with Dodos’ “Joe’s Waltz” probably being the best song I’ve heard all year. It’s July, though, so there’s always time for shattering earth in the fall.
Sorry, me again. That above quote. I think that…you know, Publix frozen pizza? Underrated stuff, this.
I use an awful lot of hyphens in my posts.
I’m usually too into list-making for my own good (already got a Best Of The Bush Administration mix in the ol’ iPod)
My drummer does things like that. The Hold Steady’s from Atlanta, right?
And Righteous Bubba is smarter than me, anyway, even if he does have questionable opinions about music and movies.
Milli Vanilli is both fine music AND fine argument about pop music as commodity.
Matt- Brooklyn by way of the Twin Cities.
Destroyer’s Trouble in Dreams
Never liked Destroyer although Dan is a swell guy to drink with.
Brooklyn by way of the Twin Cities.
Ah. I must be thinking of something else. They’ve played Athens a couple times and some good friends of mine are into them.
FWIW, while our culture still has seriously misogynistic and racist features, the “lookism” isn’t based entirely in either. There are huge corporate interests who make money by making people insecure about their looks and odors. They’re going to take it as far as they can go. They’ve already taken it beyond the female market. Anybody see the kerfuffle over at Kos about McCain’s yellow teeth? The bar has already been raised beyond encouraging having healthy teeth that meet correctly for chewing. Now you’re to be ridiculed if you don’t take the time and spend the money to get your teeth bleached.
More men are already using cosmetic products and getting plastic surgery to look younger and fitter. There’s an article in today’s New York Times that describes how people with real medical conditions are taking a backseat to the more lucrative cosmetic surgery patients with dermatologists. The modern equivalents of corsets are already in the lingerie sections of stores.
Of course it’s all based on the human drive to look young, which is the same as looking sexually attractive and vigorous. Youth is the standard, and that’s biological. It’s not going to change.
But I think we should think about how far we’re willing to go. Are we going to keep following corporate Pied Pipers and putting our energy and resources into maintaining our looks as one of our main priorities?
Men and women have equal potential to be exploited in this area.
Matt T: I really don’t understand what’s so complicated about this.
No doubt, and this is one of the more common problems in discussions like these. Argonaut was asking about fat jokes. You responded with a litany of observations about rape, the wage gap, unfair coverage of pharmaceuticals, etc. All of these are true, but they don’t have any obvious connection to fat jokes–or if they do have a connection, you were unable or unwilling to elucidate it. Perhaps someone else can provide a clearer link between those issues and the issue in question.
I also found this fascinating:
You don’t get special dispensation just because this is a humor site, so be a man and quit your bellyaching.
This kind of sexist response (“be a man and quit your bellyaching”) is quite common in discussions like these, and I never understand why. Does the writer think that this kind of sexism is okay? Does the writer think that this will be effective? Is s/he just blowing off steam without concern for the effectiveness of his or her response?
Argonaut: Tell me what is off-limits for snarking a male, but not for a female.
This, I think, is the request that wasn’t answered. Matt T’s response provides a partial response to this question: obviously he thinks it’s perfectly okay to snark a male with standard stereotypes about courage and manliness (which in turn reinforce stereotypes about women–what, is it *not* feminine to quit one’s bellyaching?). It doesn’t, however, specify what if anything is off-limits.
Dreamweasel: Argonaut, women are judged by their appearance to a significantly greater degree than men in this society….Since men really aren’t subjected to that level of scrutiny, it just makes us look like smug, bullying assholes when we do it.
See, here’s my problem with this. The first sentence is obviously true, but I only half buy the second one. See, I tend to think that *women* also look like smug, bullying assholes when they mock the weight or appearance of other women–consider the female conservative commentators who made snarky comments about Hillary Clinton’s legs, hair, pantsuits, whatever. Consequently, it does seem to me that the differential treatment of women makes appearance-based insults worse when they’re directed at women–but it doesn’t seem to me that it’s any worse for a man to do it.
In any case I’ll give a different, more functional answer for the site: you have to be really really funny to get away with a fat joke because most of them are completely lame.
I’d go a step further: Most of them are actually counterproductive. Lopez, Goldberg, et al. are stupid enough on their own. Insulting their appearance merely inspires sympathy for them–and it makes the insulter look as though s/he doesn’t have any better attacks to use.
Trilateral Chairman,
The whole “quit yer bellyachin’ and be a man” bit? Was a joke. I was making fun of the (usually) straight white male who pisses and moans about how unfair it is that everyone, especially those whiny feminazis, is so thin-skinned they can’t a little good-natured ribbing, and the guys get so mad they could just stamp their little feet and hold their breath until they turn blue, and then we’ll all be sorry. So, for your own personal edification, no, I don’t think it’s “fair” or “okay” to make jests concerning one’s lack of masculinity, especially since I think that’s all bullshit anyways. Obviously, I need to work on my gags some, and I’m sorry, terribly sorry, if you or your manhood were offended.
So, I’ll say it again and I’ll try to make it simple. Make all the sexist jokes you want. Make all the racist jokes you want. Make all the homophobic jokes you want. Just don’t be shocked if someone tells you “Hey, asshole, we’re tired of that shit, so fuck you.” and calls you a sexist/racist/homophobic shitass. We don’t have a free pass on that sort of thing anymore like we used to.
It has absolutely nothing to do with what’s “fair” for anyone else. Christ, everyone wants to be a badass, but no one wants to to get dirty doing it.
And, before there’s any further misunderstanding, the “you” in the second paragraph isn’t a specific “you”. More of a general “you”. A universal “you”, the “you” that defends “Maxim” by saying the jokes are funny or laughs at the joke about the perfect woman being four-foot-tall, deaf, dumb and with a flat head.
Consequently, it does seem to me that the differential treatment of women makes appearance-based insults worse when they’re directed at women–but it doesn’t seem to me that it’s any worse for a man to do it.
Only in that when men do it, it’s from a position of societal privilege. I mentioned the double standard of scrutiny earlier… playing the “fat” card sends a message to all women, not just Kathryn Lopez. Whereas when, say, Debbie Schlussel or Ann Coulter do it, they’re throwing stones from the sanctuary of their own shiny glass houses.
And a final thought, ’cause this is pissing me off…
In humor, nothing is off-limits. Nothing should be off-limits. However, as RB says, make sure you can deliver the goods and, like I said, be ready to take your shots if you go over someone’s line. Did Don Rickles ever apologize for offending anyone? Hell, no.
J– To top it off, the initial local news headline blared “Shooter hated Christians.” Now it’s been changed to “hated liberals.” A letter he left behind indicated he was in a rage because he couldn’t find a job and apparently blamed illegals and liberals.
This particular Unitarian church has always made a point of unabashedly welcoming gays, illegal immigrants, anyone. It’s where some of my Buddhist friends go on occasion. The FBI is involved, we assume to investigate the hate-crime aspect of it.
My dissertation adviser and his wife were seated in the row ahead of one of the shooting victims. I may have mentioned one of the six-year-olds in the play is in the class my daughter teaches at the UT Early Learning Center. Not hurt physically but scarred for life no less. Others here in my office attend as members but happened to not be there yesterday.
Interestingly, I’ve found more details about the whole thing from the NYT this morning than from our near-useless local media.
It’s a wretched horror show. Two are dead and five remain in critical or serious condition.
PS — please excuse the blogwhoring but note new URL!– I’ve found a post-Tenn. Guerilla Women blogging home and hope to put a post about the shooting there sometime tonight, if anyone’s interested.
May I also add that I now too have an e-crush on Matt T. (I’ve long had one on Righteous Bubba.)
More men are already using cosmetic products and getting plastic surgery to look younger and fitter.
Tell us about it.
May I also add that I now too have an e-crush on Matt T.
Matt T. is a stand-up guy despite his disdain for the vast array of guitar pedals I have known and loved.
==Argonaut: Tell me what is off-limits for snarking a male, but not for a female.
==This, I think, is the request that wasn’t answered.
Yup. Sorry for being unclear, since I did ask two questions. I’ll take the feminism question as answered, but direct all interested parties to the dictionary where the difference between ‘feminism’ and ‘womanism’ is linked with a “cf”.
Still waiting for an example of unforgiveable male snarking. Altar-persons may relax for the moment.
None of the guitarists in my current band use pedals nor have they any use for them. As a matter of fact, the only pedal being used is my tuning pedal, and since we’re tuning to the piano player’s piano, that’s not even being used.
Life is funny.
Jessica Valenti made a post a few months ago referring to Obama supporters as “Obama boys.” There’s you one…or at least, one that should have been, all things considered.
Why?
Re: “Obama boys.” Naah. It’s the same as “Hillesbians.” To be unforgiveable male snark it has to be worse when applied to men.
Still waiting for an example of unforgiveable male snarking.
I don’t understand why.
Matt- Because it came rrrrrrright after this.
To be unforgiveable male snark it has to be worse when applied to men.
See, therein lies a good bit the problem. Say you wanted to really, really insult some dude, something that cuts to the core of his dude-hood, whaddaya do? Compare him to a woman. Call him or his interests or his favorite NASCAR driver “unmanly” or a sissy or whatever gobbledygook gets the Ol’ Dr. Mrs. Perfesser all squishy. Or call him a fag, and the problem with being a fag isn’t all the dick-sucking – ’cause, come on – it’s that fags are all girly like women, who uniformly suck unless, of course, they’re actually in the process of sucking, which means we like them then.
Sure, some dudes will get bent out shape if you insult their level of intelligence or learning or if you make fun of their dependence on guitar pedals, but there’s really no insult that cuts a man worse than the implication he might have a little bitch in him in some form or fashion.
Argonaut: If what you’re implying is that there IS no snark that’s worse when applied to men than to women, I think that would be proving the feminist point. Or perhaps I misunderstand.
I think we should stop creating different standards of what is “off-limits” for different groups of people. Everyone should be subject to everything, and the more we take these stereotypes and regressive attitudes, STATE them, and mock them mercilessly, the less impact those stereotypes will have. It’s the Colbert Postulate – the things he says would be offensive if it wasn’t clear that, in stating them, he is mocking and dismissing them. Putting different types of jokes or remarks or words “off-limits” for different groups of people only give those words and remarks more power. Taboos are powerful until they are broken.
Comedy should be about finding the line, then always crossing it, IMO.
Everyone should be subject to everything
Everyone is. Some things are less funny though, and I would like to read the things that are more funny as well as keep company with the folks I think are witty. When you get called on it don’t moan about it.
An update on the shooting MzNicky mentioned: Surprise, surprise.
When the dust settles, a crazed gunman attacking a church for being too friendly to gay people becomes more evidence that Christians are persecuted by atheists and gay people.
That’s fair enough. I would venture to say that most commenters online aren’t comic visionaries (although some definitely are).
Alls I’m saying is that the whole “acceptable snark” for men, versus that for women, and what group is allowed to make this kind of joke, or use that word, and are fat jokes more harmful to women and all this really kinda misses the point of humor, in my mind. If it’s not funny, just ignore it. And if it’s offensive, mock it. But I don’t think the “you shouldn’t say that ‘cuz it’s not nice” thing really should apply to comedy, even bad online comedy!
Way upthread Jennifer and I agreed that we thought that K’lo was exhibiting a particular kind of gendered and aged bitterness as a result of her own social position as an aging, unattractive, spinster with delusions of religious purity. We weren’t actually trying to be funny, or making fun of K lo. Its what we both think *as women.* And we think it based on K lo’s writing and self revelations. She doesn’t think the way she does because she’s an older, fat, unattractive, unamrried, religious nut. She thinks and writes the way she does about younger women because she’s unhappy that all that is left to her after a life time of sacrificing for a purity ideal that no one wanted is the silence and loneliness of her life. I’m a middle aged, fat, married, happy woman with rising teens who are heading into a life of (one hopes) joy and bikinis and all that stuff. I say what I say about klo because its obvious to me that if I weren’t satisfied with my life I could easily project that anger and sorrow outwards onto teenage girls–probably wouldn’t bother with teenage boys–because of my own griefs and anxieties about that time in my own life. We’re just calling it like it is. I realize that that doesn’t fit in with the debate upthread about who gets to call who a fat bitch and have it be funny. Its probably not funny no matter who says it. But its quite possibly true, psychologically speaking. I hasten to add that there are many hypothetically attractive republican scolds (ann coulter, katharine parker) who have roughly the same shtick as K lo but it reads differently coming from them because they are presumptively but, of course, in real life not particularly, sexually and socially sucessful.
aimai
Matt T. is, as usual, absolutely right. If you wanna turn a tense, angry barroom argument violent instantly, just call the other dude “bitch”.
Just don’t be leanin back in your chair or against a wall or something, ’cause a very serious big right hand with a great deal of insulted anger behind it will be immediately aimed at your head…
mikey
Y’all, comedy’s hard. I don’t know if any of y’all have tried it, I mean, really tried it. Like stand-up or writing comedy or whatever, and not just leaving smarty-pants comments on blogs like I do, but I mean really being out there with your stuff hanging out, saying to otherwise disinterested people, “Okay, folks, you should have a bodily reaction akin to an orgasm at this stuff I’m saying.” It’s pretty fucking tough.
And that’s how it should be. You have to work for it, and frankly, dismissing K-Lo because she’s fat (or making a prison rape joke, for an example against a man) is just fucking lazy and going for the cheap, cruel laugh because you lack the material for anything else. Making someone laugh is easy, but comedy is hard, and that’s because bringing the funny can not only heal, but reveal. So, nothing is sacred and, thus, nothing is taboo, but before you unleash that corker, always ask yourself if you really in this day and age with all of us knowing what we know and being better for it, do you really wanna be known as the “No Fat Chicks” guy?
But if you’re fine with that, more power to ya. Just own up, is all.
Normally I’d rather be flamed than praised but I’ll step out of my discomfort zone long enough to say thanks, RB. I appreciate it.
aimai- Yeah, I’m with you on this one. K-Lo has always struck me as the most desparate of the wingnut(resses)…it’s obvious she doesn’t have the writing talents of even Jonah, and whenever they shoot the shit over at the Corner it’s obvious a bunch of them don’t really like her despite her doe-eyed routine. She reminds me a lot of a very old Onion editorial wherein the writer applauded abstinence mostly as an excuse for why he wasn’t able to get girls. K-Lo’s forced-upon purity seems hollow and bitter. And yeah, I know a lot of people don’t like me around here either, but I’m cool with that. All K-Lo wants is acceptance, and the wingnuts around her baaaarely give it to her even with her huge bullshit saintly routine.
I’m always won for teh fatties! jokes, but I’ve gotten to the point where I can’t make fun of Ms. Lopez anymore. She’s really really untalented with the pen, she seems barely unable to hide her misery, and she takes it out on the rest of us by supporting endless war and torture and corruption. I’m more inclined to leave her be, but even that assumes she’d do the right thing, quit noodling around The Corner, and find out what really makes her happy. There’s certainly a place over at LadyInstapundit, K-Lo…why not make the switch? They seem to have a lot more fun over there, even when banning little old me.
Also, I’ll keep mocking Jonah for his appearance not because he’s a man, but because it runs completely contrary to the macho terror warrior/intellectual/poet persona he and his pals have created for themselves. Greenwald’s with me on this, and since the same people who usually decry my insults as lookists are also big Zilla fans, I can’t lose.
RB’s take on humor makes sense, I think. Things like race and gender and fat jokes are the high bar for teh funny, don’t be surprised it you face-plant.
One of the last funny things dennis Miller said “Humor is tough. Wear a cup.”
…ummmm, I confess I don’t know the feminine equivalent, if there is one. I guess it’s lucky I’m not working the funny side of the street.
You can tell K-Lo is ugly even with your eyes closed.
Hence my Zappa comment.
Everyone should be subject to everything, and the more we take these stereotypes and regressive attitudes, STATE them, and mock them mercilessly, the less impact those stereotypes will have.
And if the playing field were level for everyone it’d be peachy-keen by me. But it’s not. And you’re talking about two different things: Mocking women for their looks, and mocking the mocking of women for their looks. It’d be like saying Obama’s pretty smart for a black fella. Haw haw! Er — no. Mocking someone who says that Obama’s pretty smart for a black fella — yes.
None of the guitarists in my current band use pedals nor have they any use for them.
Really my most useful and productive set-up was my Roland head, a Big Muff pedal and a volume pedal which was mostly an on-off device (the sole pick-up on my guitar runs straight out since I ripped all the electronics out in a pure-sound fit).
Fender Bassman 10 amp here. Smell those tubes.
I should’ve noted that I’m playing in a country band now. So, really, not much use for pedals, so it’s not all that astounding. However, three of our four members are extremely active members of the state and local Democratic Party, all of us have liberal arts BS (with one going for his master and another already got it) and our lead guitar player is an alternate delegate to this year’s national convention. He isn’t going, which is a bummer but we have a show that night.
I don’t know, but sometimes the only reason I stay in the band is ’cause all that’s just funny as hell to me.
You see, I was mocking the people who think that using crude humor is okay if it’s done ironically. It’s … meta-ironic. It’s such a fine line between stupid and clever.
Thank you, Pedestrian!
(Also MzNicky and Alison, and special props to Matt T. for going beyond the call, but if comedy is about succinctness then Pedestrian got there first and best.)
In humor, nothing is off-limits. Nothing should be off-limits. However, as RB says, make sure you can deliver the goods and, like I said, be ready to take your shots if you go over someone’s line. Did Don Rickles ever apologize for offending anyone? Hell, no.
Goddamn right, but then because it’s comedy and obviously meant as such, it shouldn’t go over much anyone’s line. At least, anyone not the direct, intended butt of the joke. IOW, Daffyd ab Hugh can reasonably get offended (which doesn’t mean I’ll apologize since his awfulness led me to single him out for whatever humorous ridicule I could dish in the first place), but everyone else who affects offense can fuck off and die for all I care. Know why? Because humor is inherently transgressive, and my favorite kind of humor is explicitly so. Also, because there are plenty of jokes that I too could choose to get offended about but don’t. I sometimes daydream-fantasize about being on the front row of a Lisa Lampanelli or Triumph the Insult Comedy Dog gig just so they could destroy me with their art. Cuz jokes are art, see, and I’d no more insist that those two stop hurting my feely-feelings than I’d insist that Mr. Serrano stop pissing on crucifixes.
I know sometimes feelings get genuinely hurt, but I’m not so much of an idealist that I’d wish that away even if I could.
The taking and running of offense at these jokes being huge ideological crimes that happen in a vaccuum is something that pisses me off most about the whole argument: ‘So and So said something I find offensive, so So and So *must* harbor secret wingnut tendencies!’ When one knows good and well that So and So is no fucking wingnut. It’s a species of Zhdanovian hackery in that a) bad faith is automatically assumed and b)the power game (‘My opinion as a ____ is final and binding and you must comply to be thought decent’) is so nauseatingly transparent..
I think maybe feely-feelies got overrated and over-protected — and kulturkampfing, which is exactly what this crap is, became the primary goal — because the Left failed so much to protect or advance wholly legitimate greivances. Social Democracy — by which I mean the entire salad of economic and political objectives of the Left, equality among sexes and races and classes among them — didn’t really ever happen like we thought it would, and not just because of wingnuts; many on our side simply chickened out. So to compensate for material failures emotion became sacrosanct and culturestruggle became the idee fixe. Sucks. But that’s the way it is. Ours is a sectarian society, so people can get their rocks off thinking I’m Hitler’s son for making a fat joke so long as I get to continue thinking that they are batshit insane for it.
everyone else who affects offense can fuck off and die for all I care
I do not agree that you think this.
Oh man I love when that dog says something like “I usually have a big thing stuck up my ass”.
Triumph’s funny too. ZING!
I’m reluctant to listen to feminist 101 primers from men as a rule, especially here where too many men – as politically enlightened as they may be – routinely objectify women. How many times have we seen “I’d do her (even though I hate her)” and “she’s hot” and “bitch” and “cunt” when it comes to Michelle Malkin and others. Observing the fat rolls on an individual, whether male or female, pales in comparison to some of the shit I’ve seen posted here about women. And yet these same men would have us believe they respect women and don’t value a woman for her looks alone. We all know this is bullshit. It will be bullshit for a long long time more, I’m afraid.
(I’m with Brandi/Zappa on the ‘Lo.)
MzNicky sed, “If what you’re implying is that there IS no snark that’s worse when applied to men than to women, I think that would be proving the feminist point. Or perhaps I misunderstand.”
Bingo! (except, minor point, you can’t prove a negative). And it follows that if a fat joke against a woman is out of bounds when it is not OOB against men, that *disproves* feminism, because it postulates that men and women are not equal.
But can we mock
Argonaut’s tedious pleadingRobert Novak’s brain tumor?But can we mock Robert Novak’s freshly-diagnosed brain tumor?
All I want to know– if WordPress will actually let this through– is if we can mock Robert Novak’s defense strategy for his hit-and-run-case freshly-diagnosed brain tumor.
WordPress sucks so much they won’t even allow s/strike tags, even though they show in preview.
…if a fat joke against a woman is out of bounds when it is not OOB against men, that *disproves* feminism, because it postulates that men and women are not equal.
Argonaut: This word “feminism” — it does not mean what I think you think it means.
The OED opines:
feminism: 2. [After F. féminisme.] Advocacy of the rights of women (based on the theory of equality of the sexes). (Cf. womanism.)
womanism: Advocacy of or enthusiasm for the rights, achievements, etc. of women.
Good enough for me.
But couldn’t that definition imply that feminism is also interested in the unequal *treatment* of the sexes after positing that men and women are equal? Jokes about looks (and don’t forget sexuality!) are far more often at the expense of women in power, and men lacking power can still be insultingly compared to women (surely there are other Californians here who remember Governor Arnold’s “girly men” line).
Anyway, wipe it off and zip it up– we got new stuff to discuss now.
Argonaut doesn’t get it. He’s one of those men.
It’s sort of like how “the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread”. Or something.
WordPress sucks so much they won’t even allow s/strike tags, even though they show in preview.
You have to spell out “strike”. Also “blockquote”, if you’re feeling all fancy that way.
AAAAAA MY BRAIN MY PRECIOUS BRAAAIIIINNNNN
Late to the party.
Argonaut: If what you’re implying is that there IS no snark that’s worse when applied to men than to women, I think that would be proving the feminist point. Or perhaps I misunderstand.
I think you do. Some people feel put upon for forcing themselves to self-censor because things they want to say, while 1. they think are funny and 2. are not meant in a hurtful way (except toward Jonah), sucks. And misery loves company. It’s a case of not knowing that the group you are working at being considerate toward is making any similar effort in return.
To which the answer is, no one’s pointed out how small your penis is. Or, if we we’re just pedantically trying to answer the question/challenge:
Snark that’s worse applied to men? Teh Ghey. Being crappy at sex. Being considerate. Liking your kids. Not being physically strong or good at sports. The list goes on, really there’s a lot of stuff that’s worse when applied to men. Some of it is even OOB amongst persons who consider themselves adults.
Because humor is inherently transgressive, and my favorite kind of humor is explicitly so.
Sadly, no! I refer you to Ben Elton’s standup comedy, which is inclusive (laughing at ourselves) rather than exclusive (laughing at others). He’s piss-funny, and nearly brought the whole balcony of the old state theatre crashing down from the laughter when I saw him here years ago.
Similarly (I always hear that as “sim-i-lar-ly”, due to a lecturer who pronounced it as dicrete syllables), Terry Pratchett doesn’t transgress much, if at all, yet he can be very funny.
Or perhaps when you use the word ‘transgressive’ you take it to mean something other than what I understand by it.
I do not agree that you think this.
Well, ok. But sometimes I really want to.
To which the answer is, no one’s pointed out how small your penis is.
Not directed to me, but it should be! Do it! Also, here is additional material: pasty skin, constellations of freckles — the whole plethora of physical maladies that go with gingerness — being short, scrawny, sounding like a yokel when I speak, doing entirely too many recreational drugs, being a very sloppy and often completely incompetent writer, pretty much a failure at everything I do… I can go on and on. Use this stuff; if you can make it funny, I’ll laugh. And it’s not as if I’m insensitive to insults, but the funny is what really matters.
There’s no half-way in this argument. There is no middle ground because no one can agree on intent, context is deemed irrelevant, and no one can objectively prove damages. You either accept Matt T.’s correct position that anything goes or you eventually wind up on the other extreme like Ampersand, rigorously inspecting Simpsons episodes for ideological deviancy, or like some of the goddamn wackos I saw recently who insisted that the use of the word “periodically” in any critique of Hillary Clinton is ironclad proof of the writer’s sexism, indecency, sub-humanity.
I’ve been thinking a lot lately of Pinko Punko and his over-tolerance of people whose entire shtick amounts to assaults on principles and concepts I hold dear such as fairness (what’s good for the goose is good for the gander), freedom of expression (get your filthy hands off my art), and intellectual empathy (by saying “As a ____, I alone get to decide what certain words mean,” is not just illiberal and furiously anti-socialist [good socialist, I mean; on the other hand, it is remarkably similar to Stalinist methods of bullying, and in its “thinking with the blood” it comes closer to outright fascist reasoning than, well.. than it does D.H. Lawrence], worse, it incorporates the utter denial that *any* other human has the imaginative capacity to put himself in the Other’s shoes and reason accordingly). Why does PP do it? Because he takes the time to know the backstories of these people, he learns their neuroses, familiarizes himself with the events that led them to their extremism. Which I can sympathize — with them and with PP. But it doesn’t make what they say and believe right or even “good.” My problem is that why and how they say what they say becomes more important than what they say. Sympathy becomes an end in itself; meanwhile, intellectual principles are flushed down the toilet. Gah. It just makes me think, you know Richard Nixon had a horrible childhood and was wrongly abused by the establishment well into his adulthood; IOW, much of his famous resentment was reasonable. But it doesn’t excuse what he became, and the principles he came to espouse. And it’s the same with Twisty and Ann Bartow — I don’t care why they say what they say; I only care that what they say is stupid and evil. Likewise, no one should give a shit that I first learned to be sceptical of the Blame the Patriarchy For Everything game because I was severely physically (and I mean belt-buckle right to the ‘nads kind of ‘physical’) and emotionally abused as a child by a batshit freak who, yes, rationalized her behavior by blaming the Patriarchy. Hear me? No one should give a shit about that partial, initial, and incomplete “why” — I only bring it up to prove a point (and BTW, if you can make a joke about it that’s funny, by all means do so) — because my arguments (“what”) are sound, and they are what counts. Or is this whole blogging thing a fucking personality contest? Cuz if so I’ll start writing “confessions” and shitcan the politics and humor and philosophy and principles.
Because humor is inherently transgressive, and my favorite kind of humor is explicitly so.
Yes. Because objectifying women and valuing them, as has been done for, oh, ever, primarily if not solely on the basis of their heterosexual-male-determined sex appeal, is SO transgressive.
No, I didn’t.
Not directed to me, but it should be! Do it!
I hear and obey.
<small>penis
I’m thinking it’s a good thing that K-Lo doesn’t approve of bikinis, since that will drastically reduce the chance that she would actually wea–*hurg* *hwaugh*….
Never mind. I can’t actually finish typing that thought.
Yes. Because objectifying women and valuing them, as has been done for, oh, ever, primarily if not solely on the basis of their heterosexual-male-determined sex appeal, is SO transgressive.
See, the problem is that you think this sort of crap is the end of the argument instead of the start of one.
Fine, you want to carve out exceptions to what can be made fun of. So do wingnuts. I agree that your objections have more basis in historical fact. Ok, so then your complaint isn’t exactly equivalent to a wingnut’s, but the principle remains the same: proscription of expression for the sake of something or other. What exactly are you trying to accomplish by forbidding people making fun of other people? If you actually think you’re going to reform the culture by this sort of policing well, then hahahahahahahaha best joke yet on the thread. On the other hand, if you want to deaden language by encouraging euphemism, you’ll succeed. Or do you do it because you want to protect feely-feelings? Cuz if that’s the case then for one, what a waste of resources and for another, what a god-awful precedent you set for Puritan fucktards who are already co-opting your methods to effect reactionary change that you and I both find highly unwelcome.
proscription of expression for the sake of something or other.
The something-or-other is just “not being a dick”. If you don’t think you can be a dick with a joke please see everyone you mock.
Ok, so then your complaint isn’t exactly equivalent to a wingnut’s
Why, thank you!
What exactly are you trying to accomplish by forbidding people making fun of other people?
Wow. You attribute to me way more power than I have.
if you want to deaden language by encouraging euphemism, you’ll succeed.
Where have I implied that such is my intent?
Look, HTML, you and I have tangled on this before. Let’s save it for another day. I’ve got a headache and I’m just not in the mood.
Ok, MzNicky.
RB, define “being a dick.” I’m serious.
.. and it’s not as if I don’t have limits. For instance, I would never make fun of a specific retarded person. But that’s *my* limit. I think whoever would do that is almost certainly a dick, but I don’t think I have the right to make an ironclad rule of universal, whatever-the-context, proscription based on my personal scruples.
I think using the word “retarded” is just fine and the subject of retardation itself fair game because it’s not *directed* at retarded people. I was for years, after all, “Retardo Montalban,” and even though that name is *obviously* self-deprecating on the one hand and insulting to Ricardo Montalban on the other, it didn’t stop a surprising and depressing number of people over the years from pretending that I was Worse Than Hitler for using a name that was “insensitive” to mentally-disabled people. The point is that someone, somewhere is always going to either geuninely be offended, or pretend to be. How far does one have to go to conform to such people’s tastes? And are you prepared to use whatever place you decide to put that boundary consistently? Because if you’re not consistent, then this comes down to whomever’s ox being gored, which is intellectually dishonest. However, if you decide to be honest and consistent, then are you aware that you’ve just given puritan wingnuts the hugest weapon they’ve had since they lost the power to conduct witch hunts? I for one like to be able to hurt the precious little feely-feelies of awful wingnuts who deserve it. The price I’m willing to pay for that is to allow *everyone* (myself first, if that makes a difference to anyone reading) to be made fun of.
RB, define “being a dick.” I’m serious.
Fair enough. In the bloggy world I’d go with something like “Being needlessly cruel to the people at your party.”
The people I’m “needlessly cruel to” are wingnuts. Most “people at my party” understand this, since making fun of wingnuts is the purpose of this blog. So much for the target of cruelty. Now define cruelty in this context. Everybody’s got their own definition of verbal cruelty, so the question is, do you go with the one that is a self-serving double-standard (wingnuts will vote yes, I can promise you), or do you acknowledge that something so subjective (what’s “indecent art,” RB? what’s pornographic? and don’t give me any of that Potter Stewart shit) can’t be defined so the best thing to do is to allow everything?
Wanna crusade for the ERA, gay marriage, the right to choose, fair housing/hiring, pay parity — basically the entire battery of leftwing political and economic causes? I’m with you. Emphatically. If anything, according to the tests I take, I’m more of a leftwinger than probably most people who read this blog.
But if anyone expects me to endorse — much less adopt — a speech code, or to start attacking art for political reasons, or mentally blacklisting people solely on the basis of what *words* they use (as opposed to, say, what they actually mean and believe, and which policies they endorse or oppose) then they can fuck right off, and I have excellent *leftwing* reasons for saying so.
(Now I totally expect some drive-by nutjob to claim that I’m only arguing this stuff because I just long to call women “cunts” or some such garbage that is, well… retarded. Nope. Not my style. But there are some people who can unashamedly yet judiciously use a word like “cunt” whom I believe to be totally decent, just as there are some people who would *never* use a naughty word like that whatever the context yet are despicable human beings with despicable beliefs. So, yeah.)
The people I’m “needlessly cruel to” are wingnuts.
Plus others, or you wouldn’t be getting stick, or handwaving about the ability to make X joke. Look, upthread I too said nothing was off limits, but judgment is required both to be funny with certain material and not drive away your friends. The sandwich episode – and to my discredit I am relatively sandwich friendly – is evidence of this.
do you acknowledge that something so subjective
When I was out of high school I worked in a warehouse with a relatively nice guy who once complained about nigger work in a jokey way while our new black hire was right behind him. What Nice Guy said was inadvertently cruel but cruel it was and to his credit he apologized profusely and felt awful. Our new hire didn’t come back.
I’m trying not to argue about definitions and language but about practical effects such as the one above.
But if anyone expects me to endorse — much less adopt — a speech code
It isn’t a speech code to soft-pedal secretary-with-big-tits jokes at the International Association of Administrative Professionals convention, it’s good sense. Perhaps someone could pull it off, but it doesn’t seem like a healthy ambition to have, although my own sense of what’s funny does involve a whole lot of cruelty.
“It’d be like saying Obama’s pretty smart for a black fella. Haw haw! Er — no. Mocking someone who says that Obama’s pretty smart for a black fella — yes.”
See, but depending on the context, making that remark IS mocking someone who would say that. As in Stephen Colbert; if he said that, it would be hilarious. It all depends on the speaker and the audience. Depending on how it was delivered, I could certainly see that being funny. The point is that the same exact words can mean entirely different things depending on who is speaking, and to whom they are speaking. When a guy like Glenn Beck says stuff like that, it IS offensive, because he actually means what he says. But I wouldn’t say he couldn’t say it, or even that he shouldn’t say it. People should be free to say whatever they like and reveal exactly how stupid they are.
John: I agree. That’s why when liberal dudes who should know better rag on a female for her looks at the same time they’re ragging on her politics, it’s intolerable.
Why is this such a difficult concept for otherwise-aware men to grasp?
The point is that the same exact words can mean entirely different things depending on who is speaking, and to whom they are speaking.
I’m not the one arguing *against* context and intent here.
Look, upthread I too said nothing was off limits, but judgment is required both to be funny with certain material and not drive away your friends.
True! But then it seems that anything that’s funny will manage to offend some so-called friend. I agree that sometimes jokes backfire. Or sometimes too much liberty or too much sloppiness is used with something touchy and people might be right to say something. But the problem is that anything that is transgressive by definition hurts someone; I’m *trying* to be cruel to my targets, after all. Making fun of an *individual’s* looks is not proof of bigotry to a group. You’ll never change my mind on looksism. Never. Mostly because you will only pry such modes of attack from my cold cruel typing fingers, but also partly because I see it as the start of a slippery slope to something dangerous and very fucking scary.
Which, let me touch on that. Occasionally I read trash blogs on dating and in the comments sections especially, well… Ok, do you think gay men are misogynists simply because they find women physically/sexually unappealing? What if a straight Asian woman doesn’t find black men sexually/physically attractive — is she a racist? What if a straight white male isn’t attracted to white women but only to women of color? Is he self-loathing? Or is he continuing the imperialist conquest of brown vaginas? I’ve seen people answer in the affirmative to these questions and such stupidity is a species of or extension of the concept of “looksism.” Bear in mind that I care about misogyny and racism and homophobia and all of it just as I care about genuine anti-Semitism and get absolutely livid when I see the accusation abused (especially in bad faith).
People are attracted to what they’re attracted. And repelled by the opposite. It just is; it’s better to just leave it that way for the cause of sexual freedom; and arguments about whether it’s biologically or culturally driven are basically irrelevant. K-Lo, just like Daffy, is not attractive to most people. Does this fact alone mean that they are bad people? No. Does this mean that people who resemble them are bad people? No. Is it generally nice to make fun of random people based on looks? No. But Daffy and K-Lo’s bitterness, of a general piece with their whole politics, based as it is on resentment, informs what they do. Jennifer’s comment is exactly right (which is not to say that Anne Laurie’s is wrong). A good-looking person can become arrogant; an ugly person bitter and vindictive (witness the wingnut male virgin phenomenon); in each case reaction to their own physicality (and to other people’s reactions to their physicality) is at some level psychologically abetting to their wingnuttery. Ergo, making fun of their looks is totally fair game (even though, as I’ve said, no such justification is needed if the joke is good). And at the same time, making fun of their looks does not mean that the fun-poker devalues people who physically (and, I’ll be the first to say, superficially) resemble them. In effect, one *chooses* to feel collateral damage.
Could it really be that we S,N! writers hate these people more than you do? If Clif made a ginger joke about Amanda Carpenter, do you people think I’d be offended? (In private, I might pretend to be, tongue-in-cheek, but then that doesn’t count). I’m sure you think I should be, but see, for one, if the joke’s good then it should play (and I’ll enjoy it), for another *I don’t fucking identify with wingnuts, especially about something so superficial and trivial as looks.* Clif would be making fun of Amanda Carpenter, not me? Unnerstand?
Every one else who writes here agrees with me, they just don’t talk about it as much and they don’t get pissed off about it like I do (though there are exceptions, witness the original Sammich controversy). But it just fucking infuriates me to no end.
When I was out of high school I worked in a warehouse with a relatively nice guy who once complained about nigger work in a jokey way while our new black hire was right behind him. What Nice Guy said was inadvertently cruel but cruel it was and to his credit he apologized profusely and felt awful. Our new hire didn’t come back.
I’m trying not to argue about definitions and language but about practical effects such as the one above.
Well, you went straight to the most poisonous word ever; perhaps it’s best that you did. Though, I notice that you didn’t euphemise — which could get you into trouble with the kind of people I’m completely disgusted with. What, no “n-word”? No “n*****”? Ok…. HITLER!
I have used the word like you’ve just used it, one that’s contextually inoffensive in that it relates a story or quote or paraphrase. But that’s it. I don’t use it in posts (only in comments, and then rarely) because I just don’t trust my meager skills to do it perfectly (because it is a powerful word and must be treated as dynamite). But Gavin did once, and did it perfectly: in a title to a post, quoting a song (IIRC). Sure enough, we got fucking hate mail from fucking idiots telling us that the word never should be used EVAR even in quotes.
But speaking of that word, I’ll leave you with this. When George Carlin died, Brad posted a vid in which, as it happened, Carlin used *that* word. Carlin did it right but as I’ve already stated, that’s not good enough for some people. And besides, Carlin regularly committed flagrant violations against “looksism” and of politically correct discourse. I remember thinking, probably about 20 percent of the so-called liberals mourning Carlin today and wishing for him continued life would be the first to censor him if they could, the fucking hypocrites — at least most of the wingnuts commenting on Carlin’s death were honest in their hostility. And even if these liberals couldn’t censor him in the legal sense (which of course they couldn’t, and they claim they don’t want to — a claim I take leave to doubt), they’d censure him; they’d insist that he was a Bad Person and that the people who genuinely enjoyed *all* his work were Bad People. Who needed “educated”. About their “blind spots.” Obviously, I don’t have a millionth of the talent or the intelligence that Carlin had. But I admire who he was and more importantly, what he was about. And I see people complaing about “looksism” and whining about feely-feelies and etc. as the people who would, if their crap was taken to its logical conclusion, remove the Carlins and the South Parks and the Family Guys and the Oblongs and the Triumphs and the Rickles and the Lampanellis and etc from the world.
I’m sure you’ll disagree, and that’s fine. But I’m telling you why I take all this so seriously and why I get so damn angry about it.
Personally, I’m not a fan of “slippery slope (insert racist joke about oiled chinamen here)” arguments – I think they don’t actually say anything – but damn. What HTML said.
It isn’t a speech code to soft-pedal secretary-with-big-tits jokes at the International Association of Administrative Professionals convention, it’s good sense. Perhaps someone could pull it off, but it doesn’t seem like a healthy ambition to have[.]
Well, sure. Like I said above, I’m not the one arguing *against* context; actually, it’s the reverse — and not only because of my target.
As for the “healthy ambition” thing: that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that the option should be there.
I’m not up on the latest troll taxonomy but somewhere there needs to be a space for the Tiresome Troll, perhaps as a subspecies of the popular concern troll. A Tiresome Troll knows exactly what you are doing, agrees that your subject is worthy, your method effective, that you share the same aims, and that you already know the subject and are familiar with any possible protests by misunderstanding readers — all this and they troll you all the same.
Ok, now remember the “Sadly, No! Abortion-o-thon” post I wrote last year? Yes it was about a controversial subject. But it was transparently mere agitprop designed to bait wingnuts into responding hysterically (oops I used a word that confirms without a shadow of doubt my “virulent misogyny” — sorry). And what happened? Some lefty, I don’t remember who, had to solemnly remind everyone HOW UTTERLY TRAUMATIC AND SERIOUS ABORTION IS. So, even though the post was funny and fit the context/exception criterion, it was STILL OFFENSIVE IN THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE sense. Headdesk, headdesk, headdesk. I thought after that, for the first time, about what kind of complaints so utterly tiresome that they inspire creative thoughts of suicide, edgy comedians and writers (a bazillion times more talented and famous, of course) must get. I bet poor Jerry Seinfeld must have got a zillion letters, after that ‘Take Your Date to Shindler’s List’ episode, by extremely dense people saying “Dear Offensive sir, Do you not know that over six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust?” No, you don’t say.
I don’t really see that we occupy different positions except that we’re emphasizing different things. Neither of us want things to be inherently “off limits” and neither of us wants “speech codes” while we both acknowledge that we already use them in certain respects, as humans do when they don’t want a punch in the head.
My only argument is that there is already a sense of propriety that we all have and it’s always worth considering whether it should be expanded or not. Also abortions are groovy.