The US military wasn’t involved in the bay of pigs debacle.

Max – central to his point, etc.

You would also have to point out that Kennedy also managed to avert nuclear war during the resulting Cuban Missile Crisis, and Clinton managed to end the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. Bush? Fucked Afghanistan, Iraq, New York, New Orleans, and the Bill of Rights while he was at it, and completely failed to catch OBL, and the most charitable word to describe the capture of Saddam is “Pyrrhic victory”.

Not to mention

Nixon and Cambodia
Regan and Lebanon

fud – you kidding me? They think Cambodia was one of Nixon’s signature triumphs!

The US military wasn’t involved in the bay of pigs debacle.

I was going to say that! The war lovers and Castro-haters denounce Kennedy for NOT committing the US military to the “invasion”, which I suppose, to them, is a “lack of wartime leadership”. I call it “knowing how not to commit a diplomatic and military fuck-up of monumental proportions”, a kind of knowledge we can all see that Chimpy McFlightsuit sadly lacks.

Geez, and we’ve also left off Hurricane Katrina, the anthrax attacks… there’s not enough room even on the internets to list all of GWB’s f’ups.

Tom doesn’t seem to have much of an interest in the details, does he?
Wasn’t Mogadishu the result of Bush Sr.s attempt at legacy building?
I remember reading that those soldiers were supposed to be back by Christmas of 92. Typical of a Bush to leave a blundered military action for the next president.

Joe Max – yup. I’m kind of surprised Bush didn’t invade Cuba. I imagine it was suggested in the neocon circles, as soon as they had Iraq, Iran, Syria, Egypt, and all the others taken care of.

This is nothing more than one of those campaign commercials that SOUND good, but when you think about it, you end up scratching your head and going Huh?

There is NO experience that prepares you for the job of President of the United States. Hell, there is no resume that can prepare you to be the president of Uruguay. It’s not equivalent to any other kind of job. It’s not the same as being, well, anything else. It stands alone, so everybody who ever took the oath of office started out with a steep learning curve.

Isn’t it strange that everybody claims that THEIR experience is the RIGHT experience, and everybody else is, well, inexperienced and not ready. At what point are we going to look back at history, think about earlier candidates, and refuse to accept this patently false, and frankly irrational position?

We want someone to take this office with a particular worldview. Kind of a sensibility, one that we would use if it were US taking the oath. Tough, but compassionate, with a surfeit of common sense and an ability to work the margins, manage the outcomes, move agendas rather than fight minutae.

Obama’s right about one thing. As long as we keep accepting the same tired old irrational explanations for office qualification, we’ll keep getting the same old politicians, doing the same old things. I don’t have any idea if Barack is truly different, but at this point, looking at the three players in the game, I’m fully prepared to give him a shot…

mikey

JFK to Goldwater during the Cuban Missile Crisis: “So you want this fucking job?”

Aside from the fact that anyone who wants to be President should be disqualified, no one is ever “ready” for it.

And at least The Blessed O has had a passport … the guy who’s been holding down the chair for the last few years hadn’t been anywhere of any interest. And of course he wasn’t interested in nation-building then, and has proved it ever since. Hard not to do better …

Don’t forget to give mad props to Bush for the way he solved the Israeli-Palestinian problem. And how he ended the genocide in Darfur. And our relations with Venezuela have never been better!

Plus that Shock and Awe? Totally, shockingly awesome.

And here’s an incredibly hysterical comment from the linked article:

“If you’re willing to push this line with some accompanying Bush-bashing,’

Sorry. Since he cannot run again, he is not a subject we wish to discuss.

“He is not a subject we wish to discuss”. No kidding. But don’t worry – we’ll bring him up… over, and over, and over again. With lots of pictures of John M. giving him the big hug.

I’m cynical about everybody and I think he can do it.

“What you cannot argue with any good conscience is that those foul-ups…”

I argue! I argue!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4298137966377572665&q=rules+of+engagement&total=653&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Hey you forgot the Katrina images.

LWF, I don’t really think you can count Clinton’s record in Kosovo in the plus column. Set the stage for interventionist policies down the line, as well there being limited evidence of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. In hindsight, it just looks like a way to fuck up the Serbs and allow Blair, Bush and Clinton to play pre WW1 politics in the Balkan’s.

As for Waco, I thought that was planned well before Clinton took office. Can he be responsible for the ATF fucking up?

It’s all well and good to lay blame for Waco onto Janet Reno, but she wasn’t sworn in as the 78th attorney general of the United States until March 12, 1993 nearly two weeks after the ATF agents were killed in that February 28 raid, when the standoff began.

Not saying it ended well either.

Just saying.

The fact is, Bush surrounded himself with top-notch people. Like that whole crew who, while some people were running around like their hair was on fire just before 9/11, well those BushCo folks just kept their cool.

…The US military wasn’t involved in the bay of pigs debacle…

No, not so much. However, even better, remember the code name for the Bay of Pigs? Operation Zapata! And, of course the names of the boats that that were run for the Bay of Pigs off the Zapata Oil company rigs? Why, the Barbara and the Houston! Even better than the U.S. military, Poppy was was involved in the Bay of Pigs!

Gotta give Clinton credit for Northern Ireland, also. It took a little longer than expected, but he got the ball rolling and the violence stopped.

The first raid on Branch Davidian property took place on Feb 28, 1993, a little over a month after Clinton took office, and before Reno did. Though Lord knows Clinton and Reno took full part in the ensuing cluster fuck, it was most likely in the works from the Bush days. So, considering the actions of what could really have only been Bush’s ATF and FBI at the time, can we assume Bush would have done any better? He certainly didn’t do better with Somalia… maybe Bush still wasn’t ready to be president even at the end of his term?

Wait! Anthrax!

Not only all of the above, but they had the utter temerity to send Giuliani out during their NY convention and whine on prime-time network TV that the Bush Administration was in office for ONLY EIGHT MONTHS when 9/11 happened. If you base your campaign on your trusted leadership capability, you don’t get a fucking mulligan.

You could say that Bush got to be President because he surrounded himself with the smartest folks in the room.

tell him to google ‘reagan+241 dead marines’.

another shining example of republican national security credntials….

“If you’re willing to push this line with some accompanying Bush-bashing,’

Sorry. Since he cannot run again, he is not a subject we wish to discuss.

Wait, he said this in the comments of a post that bags on Bill Clinton? And John Fucking KENNEDY?!! That guy’s short-term memory is really shitty…

Clinton didn’t bring peace to Northern Ireland — increasing prosperity in Eire was the biggest single cause. Well, that and boredom with the situation.

Also, don’t forget that Bill bombed Iraq too.

Bush tried to put top people in important jobs.

You know, judges and whatnot.

Lobbey,

The US had interventionist policies looooong before Bill Biy took office.

Poppy Bush left that nice steaming turd of a Somalia intervention.

-GSD

Oh yeah, PS. I remember that time when Clinton gave the finger to the whole world and fucked up Iraq. He did that thing where he put on a costume and landed that jet in the San Diego harbor and declared the the war was over, too.

I miss ol’ “eatin nails and shittin bullets” Bill.

Yeah, well, the fRightwing meme is that the Cuban Missle Crisis only happened because Kennedy didn’t turn Cuba into an obsidian parking lot American protectorate after DFH Castro was “allowed” to diss the brave CIA freedom fighters at the Bay of Pigs. And Osama bin Forgotten only destroyed those towers because Clinton’s Giant Robotic Dyke AG was “allowed” to murder those poor, religious, Second-Amendment-defending freedom fighters at Waco, after which she single-handedly destroyed the CIA, the NSA, the FBI, and probably the BSA in a futile attempt to hide her high crimes & misdemeanors.. And Saddam Hussein only started collecting his WMDs after those dark-complected ragheads in Somalia were “allowed” to murder our poor, innocent, candy-&-gum-bearing Amurkin soldiers. Because when you’re a Reichtard, there are no networks, no unforeseeable consequences, no complicated geopolitical actions — just simple A-to-B connections where every Bad Thing happens because your Enemy is evil, and every Good Thing happens because God loves *you* personally and your anointed Dear Leader even more, eleventy-one. And anybody who suggests that life is more complicated than a Risk game is The ENEMY, dammit, because if Reality is more complicated than a board game then who’s going to protect the fReichtards?

Don’t forget that the Bush administration brought Laura Bush, America’s most prominent library children’s room storyteller!

Yeah, and Bush got good advice from somber, religious men, too.

Clinton played a huge role in Northern Ireland, with a little help from Blair. He took a lot of heat for inviting Gerry Adams to the White House, as I recall, but by recognizing Sinn Fein as a political power he opened the door for their participation in peace talks, which was paramount to coming to any kind of settlement. He also sent George Mitchell to negotiate w/all parties, and kept NI high on his list of priorities during both terms. The improving economic situation in Ireland and NI occurred while this was happening, so one was not really the result of the other. And ditto, Stryx.

I’m kind of surprised Bush didn’t invade Cuba.

Well, there’s still time.

Anne Laurie, how I love your rants.

9/11? Condi Rice is central to its point.

Oh, how America longs for the days when Failure was its own reward.

How precious…from the comments:

I suppose if Bill Clinton had been more honest about the nature of the threat we were facing from AlQaeda, John McCain might have done better in 2000.

cough cough

Well, there’s still time.

Point taken, but I thought he’d get on it sooner. Before the WTC attacks it was looking to me like Bush was trying to systematically alienate the entire world and restart the Cold War Cash Cow – but then the towers fell and everything went utterly batshit.

You stupid Obamaniacs have no idea about THE FACTS. Here are some that cannot be indisputed. Read em and weep:

Obama makes children cry salty tears. This is true and has been documented.

Obama is George W Bush reincarnated. (Or he would be if George W Bush were dead. Which he’s not — but you get the idea.)

Obama is just evil. He’s the worst person in the world. I know because Susan Hu told me.

Obama makes water taste bad when he walks in the room. (Airtight verification here)

Obama causes flowers to wilt when he’s nearby. I have seen this happen with my own eyes.

When Obama visits coastal cities, whales go mad and beach themselves the next day. Coincidence? I THINK NOT.

One man I know was gripped with Obamania and went to one of his rallies. He shook Obama’s hand and for two weeks afterward, his hand was numb. He couldn’t feel anything and he was afraid he would have to get it amputated. But I showed him a Hillary speech on YouTube, and he suddenly got all the feeling back. That’s how evil Obama is, and HOW WONDERFUL HILLARY IS.

I knew a young college girl who fell in love with Obama and she quit school and started babbling on about HOPE and CHANGE. After six weeks of erratic behavior (going up to strangers and hugging them; drooling when she saw Obama on TV; mindlessly repeating his New Hampshire concession speech), her parents had to have her committed. They are dedicated Hillary fans. Go Hillary!

Hillary ‘08!

When my dog sees Obama on the TV he wimpers and scampers out of the room. You may laugh, but animals know the anti-Christ when they see him.

Stryx:

Presidential address, Dec 16, 1998:

CLINTON: Good evening.

Earlier today, I ordered America’s armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq’s nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.

[etc] … Of course Bush was far worse, but the Iraqis feel with reason that they have been under attack from the US for over 17 years now …

It took Google 0.15 seconds to find that — it’s at http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

Other folks have mentioned the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the key point there is that Bush administration in the same situation would have caused a nuclear war.

It would be fun if Tom MaGuire’s bigoted ass came over here for an argument and then ran away again. Last time he was here he was complaining about how Barack Obama didn’t address the Imus/Rutgers basketball controversy in a way that made Tom feel good. Because that’s Obama’s job as a black man. To make white bigots feel better.

Obama could have “experience” up the ol’ wazoo (we’re talking about the correct kind of experience here, mind you, not just any old experience), and the response would be that he’s a “Washington insider”.

Best to just realize that the rationale changes to suit the present circumstances, and not take it too seriously.

Ignobility:

Sure, Clinton helped in NI. I visit there regularly — my brother has lived in Belfast since the early 1960s — and I’ve watched the changes. But I do think that the economic factor is more important.

Cuba has oil?

Cuba has the finest reserves of 2 SPF oil. We need to go there and liberate it right away.

tell him to google ‘reagan 241 dead marines’.

another shining example of republican national security credntials….

Yes, Saint Reagan not only got 241 marines killed in ONE FREAKING EVENT, he cut and run! We were pretty massively attacked (compared to the USS Cole attack, where 17 sailors were lost and the righties SCREEECHED about Clinton not doing anything), he pulled out of Beirut over it! (attack occured in October, and other than a few shellings from our side, nothing. The marines were pulled out By Feb. the next year)

And the repubes think he is the president to emulate?

I mean, seriously–emulate him? Immolate him, sure (now that he’s dead and stuff–back off trollies), but emulate him?

Saint Reagan had the good sense that God gave green turnips, which is better than what your typical neocon has nowadays.

Clinton didn’t make a big show out of it, but half a million dead Iraqis from sanctions is pretty serious.

Reagan made up for the Lebanon fiasco by liberating Grenada from a troop of Cuban cubscouts a few weeks later.

-GSD

Yeah PS. You’re right.

4 days of bombing vs. 4 days of Shock and Awe followed by coming up on 5 years of war.

Point taken.

“people who have proven track records as managers and, most notably, people who have stature in their respective fields”

I don’t know about you guys, but this phrase right there in 2001 should have tipped everyone of what was about to happen. In my experience, productive people can be spotted by their ideas, talking about what they would do and how they would do it. Scumbags are the ones who you would recognize by references to “track record” and “stature”. When I hear the words “respected track record and stature” I know that the person behind them has no clue or idea of what to do…

Somewhere at or near this point in the discussion, I feel compelled to point out that the most recent poll shows Bush’s approval ratings tanking at about 19%. I don’t think you could get 81% of Americans to agree that water is wet, the sun rises in the east and that whacking yourself on the head with a great big pole kinda smarts. Nothing like the looming spectre of Depression and not being able to afford the electricity to watch American Idol to get the attention of the disinterested Great Silent majority.

The 19% that still think that Duhbya is peachy-keen, well those are most likely the ones who decided to experiment on that whole “hitting yourself in the head really hard hurts” thing …

Si.

Cuba can hz manteca de corojo.

But they have to buy it.

I like how the writer here tries a clumsy sleigh-of-hand by denigrating not Bush, but the Bush team for screwing up.

Because directly blaming Bush makes Maquire’s exact point that we can’t trust noobs on foreign policy.

Nice try though, I guess.

Because directly blaming Bush makes Maquire’s exact point that we can’t trust noobs on foreign policy.

Since Tom Maquire never made his point about noobs when the First AWOL Cokehead was running, Phil McC, we don’t credit him with making this point.

We credit him with being a hypocrite willing to throw any crap against the wall to see if it sticks, when faced with a Democrat who is finally going to sink this neocon ship of fools.

Does Santa ride on the “Sleigh of Hand” when Mrs. Claus is not in the mood?

Just askin.

Jeez…

mikey

completely failed to catch OBL

That assumes that he’s tried.

I don’t think you could get 81% of Americans to agree that water is wet, the sun rises in the east and that whacking yourself on the head with a great big pole kinda smarts.

But you can get 50% of Americans to agree on anything. Who wants to be a pirate?

Dammit! Mikey beat me to the sleigh joke. Man, ya gotta be quick around here.

Fine.

I’ll settle for a swing at Bobby of You stupid Obamaniacs have no idea fame: Hey, Bobby, you still like the dry food, right?

The fact is, the USA hatred here is palpable, and you wish for Shania law, and the Religion of Peace, and if you get it you will be sorry.

I give Bobby credit for making fun of the anti-Obama crowd, meself.

Anyways, here’s d r i f t g l a s s

What Bobo misses, of course, is that people are not simply stupid-drunk on hope. It’s that after 30 year of David Brooks’ side of the political universe feeding-tube-glutting the body politic with nothing but a slurry of fear, hate, rage, bigotry and paranoia, we’re sick of it.

This is not an endorsement of Obama (You’re smart people so make up your own damn minds) but an observation that while he both connotes and denotes many things to many people, what Obama most clearly represents is this: our National Gag Reflex finally kicking in.

Too which I’ll add: Damn Straight.

Since I’ve not seen anyone anywhere on these intertoobs make the following observation, you all are going to be the lucky ones to hear it here, first!

While the Hillary bandwagon rolls on whining and gnashing teeth over Obama’s lack of “experience”, what I find most appealing, and the best preparation for the office, is Obama’s community organizing experience. Why? Because anyone who has ever done it – and I have – knows the skills set that you have to develop to do it. You have to be able to talk to people, all kinds of people, and talk to them in the language they best understand. So I never clutched my pearls when Obama said he would be willing to meet with the president of Iran – because in his experience, that’s how you resolve problems and get things done. And you know, he’s right. And even if you meet with the president of Iran and don’t settle all or even any of your differences, it doesn’t result in a million dead, $2 trillion in debt, loss of world prestige, and the creation of a new terrorist haven state.

Funny how this has not occured to so many progressives, though I suspect they are by and large the ones who like to tout their own progressive values but have never done the kind of work Obama did as an organizer (hint: it does not pay well).

I don’t expect anyone to walk in the door prepared for the presidency…that’s asking the impossible. What I ask is pretty simple: that the person be at least as smart as I am, and that I see some evidence that they have the skills set required to handle the job. I’m completely comfortable with Obama on both counts.

A little Hebrew Bible, but does anyone else look at Cindy McCain and expect her to spin “World’s Finest Pig” above her husband’s head?

Bravo Mikey. Bravo.

The fact is, the USA hatred here is palpable….

Gary’s ego is so large he thinks he’s the USA now.

Jennifer, I totally agree with your assessment of the reasons to support Obama. I’m ready to be disappointed, it could happen and probably will, but I see the highest upside in any candidate I can remember (back to JFK) and any candidate with a realistic shot that I can think of, ever.

[But I won’t drink the Kool-Aid.]

The fact is, I suck.

Yeah, Thunder, I got Bobby’s joke. I just, y’know, remembered that he liked the dry food. Y’know, from a coupla months ago when everyone was talking about . . . Bobby . . . and how he likes . . . the dry . . . food?

OK. I see your point.

PS – there’s no Kool-Aid drinking going on here; I’m just pointing out what I see as Obama’s greatest strength, because I haven’t seen anyone else point it out. To my mind, having “community organizer” on the resume of a presumptive nominee is a very good thing. Knowing that the experience was within the past 20 years is an even better thing, since it suggests a person who can still remember what things are like for ordinary people. There were other reasons I chose to vote for Obama in the primary, some of them that might seem superficial to others (such as: the man’s two years older than me; his frame of reference is not the 1960s, as it has been for virtually every candidate of either party for the past 25 – 30 years) but meaningful to me. That having been said, I would have no problem voting for Hillary if she wins the nomination. Which is more than can be said for Taylor Marsh and some of the other anti-Obama ranters who profess to be Democrats.

I donno, SM. I don’t remember the dry food or bobby, and my brain is turned to mush.

I like driftglass’ take, right to the very end. He hates on bobo like nobody’s business, and that’s a good thing.

Night folks, and take good care of ur budgies.

Jennifer, absolutely. If Obama does his job — and he may — it won’t be him that fixes the country, it’ll be us. And I really, really look forward to what the rest of the world will think when they see his face as our face. Sure, I’d vote for Hillary over Bomber McCain. Why any Democrat would rant against Obama, however, is beyond me … unless they’re either racist or Republicans who grew up in the wrong family, or of course both.

Shania law

Now, Gary’s made this “mistake” or “typo” or “misstatement” far too many times for it to be an isolated incident.

So all I can assume is that Gary actually believes that Shania Twain has some kind of dogmatic ruleof law in place.

but how could it be so bad, with cologne and all that?

http://www.shaniabystetson.com/default_full.html

Y’know, from a coupla months ago

Back then we had to edit text documents to killfile someone. Yup.

I, for one, welcome the coming of Shania law!

I will do whatever Shania Twain tells me to do.

We’ll fix things up lickety-split.

Imagine having sane governance for the first time since 2001.

The Bush administration is following the ENRON model of governance, with two major differences.

1) Lay, Skilling, and Fastow were caught. Lay died. Skilling and Fastow were prosecuted and punished. And all other Enron employees and shareholders were screwed, with Bush-packed courts blocking one attempt after another by those screwed to receive some recompense for the financial damage done to them and their families by the corruption and greed of the top executives at ENRON, all Republicans. (Top BushCo “executives” have gotten away with looting our national treasury, with obstructing justice in one aborted criminal investigation after another, with outing a covert CIA officer, with trashing our Constitution, with hiding the true scope of the powder-filled terrorist mailings sent by conservatives since late 2001 to liberal individuals and organizations, with disregarding the terrorist threat before 9/11 and with starting a war of aggression against Iraq based on “fixed” intelligence and outright lies. The number of U.S. citizens adversely affected by BushCo corruption is in the tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions, with countless U.S. citizens being adversely affected for years after the corrupt Bush and corrupt Cheney leave office.)

2) The ENRON debacle, exacerbated by BushCo blocking the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission in 2001 from stepping in early and stopping the corrupt Republican ENRON executives, has ended up costing California utility rate payers, Enron employees and Enron shareholders tens of billions of dollars, while the criminal activities of BushCo “executives” has already cost U.S. citizens hundreds of billions of dollars, with trillions of dollars in cost still to be incurred.

The corrupt BushCo “executives” are trying every trick in the book to keep from having their criminal and un-American acts exposed. Executive privilege, states secrets, blocking fellow BushCo “executives” from respecting congressional subpoenaes, getting BushCo-appointed federal judges to obstruct justice, conniving with certain members of Congress (both Republican and conservative Democrats) to stop any investigations into criminal BushCo activity, commuting Scooter Libby’s prison sentence, to name just a few criminal tactics being employed by BushCo.

One can only hope and pray that the next president will fill that it is her or his duty to all American citizens to conduct a thorough investigation into the corruption of the eight previous years of BushCo and expose all that BushCo is trying to keep hidden.

Now, Gary’s made this “mistake” or “typo” or “misstatement” far too many times for it to be an isolated incident.

It would be nice to know which country ‘his’ IP address is located in. Because I think ‘Shania’ might be a result of a typo in the phrase manual.

Does anybody remember when China forced a US plan down and demanded an apology from the US. That was a tres manly moment.

Jennifer, I totally agree with your Obama assessment. I was an Edwards supporter during the Iowa caucuses, and don’t regret that in the least – I’d still be a lot happier if Edwards were the presumptive nominee – but I remeber thinking and saying at the time that I was absolutely amazed with Obama’s campaign machine. It was awesome. Bright people, always polite, charming, and happy to discuss with you why you supported a different candidate. “No pressure, just keep us in mind. You’re welcome to come down any time. Can we get you tickets to the Harkin steak fry?” They left you with a really good feeling about their whole operation.

Obama’s organization was far superior to Edwards’s, who had the huge advantage of already having one in place here in Iowa. I credit Obama’s community organizing abilities with his victory over Edwards here, despite Edwards’ popularity in Iowa. Impressive.

(In Edwards defense, Obama’s campaign early on had way more money to spend. Of course, Hillary had lots of cash too, and her organization sucked, which in my opinion is one big reason why she came in third here.)

If this is incoherent, I plead an oncoming case of the flu, and perhaps should have just said, “What Jennifer said.” 🙂

Gary is a parody. A Garody, if you will.

Lobbey, The US had interventionist policies looooong before Bill Biy took office.

yes, I don’t deny this, but Bush 1’s and Clinton’s little adventure in the Balkan’s, particularly with respect to Kosovo, opened the door for direct intervention, as per the Neo-Con’s plans. Overtly attacking a country over its internal politics was a fairly new game in town. Reverent Tony’s intervention in Sierra Leone in 2000 (?) was also used as justification of the invasions of both Iraq and Afghanistan. Prior to these events, intervention tended to follow the assassination and/or arming some murderous locals path (see Iran, Nicoragua, Angola, yada, yada, yada), rather than sending the troops in.

Only 47 of the 69 Gary Ruppert’s who post here are parodies. At least three of the rest truly fear a society where women are forced to wear strange hooded leopardskin outfits and marry men called “Mutt”.

Because directly blaming Bush makes Maquire’s exact point that we can’t trust noobs on foreign policy.

It would if I thought that Bush were actually making a lot of important decisions. But since I think he outsourced a lot of this stuff to Cheney, Rummy and Condi, I doubt it.

The war lovers and Castro-haters denounce Kennedy for NOT committing the US military to the “invasion”

And think it’s okey-dokey to have the CIA initiating overt wars trying to force the President to reverse his refusal to authorize the gig.

But, hey, what the heck, the Constitution was just a quaint suggestion.

And let’s add to Bush’s alltime hits:

1) Jetting the Saudi royals and Bin Ladens to safety.

2) Letting Osama get away.

3) Letting AQ Khan proliferate nukes without consequence.

4) Embracing American killer Moammar Gaddafi.

5) Millions to Perv the Mushie to continue to harbor the Al Qaida leadership.

6) Darfur? Sorry, they’re too black.

7) Palestinians? Nope, never heard of ’em.

8) Kept Cat Stevens out of America.

9) Welcomed Iran-Contra terrorist to Miami.

10) Groped Germany’s chancellor.

11) Created the new American gulag, free from due process, Geneva Conventions, trials or definitions of guilt.

12) Spied on Grannies For Peace.

13) Trying to force puppet Bushocracies on the world, caused the greatest spread of socialism and terrorist recruitment since the comedy team of Lenin & Stalin.

Does anybody remember when China forced a US plan down and demanded an apology from the US. That was a tres manly moment.

I think you’re misremebering.

President Bush never apologized to the Chi-Coms!!!!!1!

President Bush merely announced that the USA was “very, very sorry” and then he immediately dispatched a Fed-Ex commando team to deliver Bibles to the captive crew and spy plane.

The Chi-Coms immediately backed down and allowed the Bibles in.

Realizing they had messed with the wrong hombre, the Chi-Coms meekly accepted President Bush’s apology and propmtly washed and waxed our advanced spy plane.

Then, many months later the Chi-Coms disassembled our advanced spy plane and packed it all up into boxes and returned it to us on a chartered Russian military cargo plane. President Bush stood firm and demanded that America pay for all the shipping and handling costs.

Not sure what ever happened to the Bibles though.

So, I take it that it were the danged liberals who were pushing JFK into what they promised would be the totally awesome uprising that surely would explode all across Cuba as soon as we escalated from bombing Cuba via proxies to the Bay of Pigs?

And I take it that it were the same danged naive liberals who harbored multi-generational resentments against JFK just because he wouldn’t invite nuclear war with the Soviet Union by fully supporting (aerially at first) a proxy invasion of Cuba to back up the pathetic, rejected, and failed Playa Girón invasion?

The “My Pet Goat” picture would be a nice addition to the collection of photographs.

If this is what experience gets us, let’s try inexperience.

I’ll add the failure to extend or even continue the anti-nuclear-proliferation efforts of the previous administrations to the C.V. of the deeply experienced crew “running” things now. Given their pants-pissing fear of nuclear-armed terrists, this is utterly inexplicable.

I’d be willing to offer you extremely long odds that an Obama administration would commit a grave mistake in its first year. Pretty much every administration does.

The difference? Obama displays the capacity to actually learn from mistakes and not fucking commit them over and over.

Last month, my conservative brother showed the amazing ability to finally admit that GWB is a moron. As the ray of sunlight shone down on me and the choir began singing, he IN THE VERY NEXT BREATH said that the fact that GWB was completely inexperienced and turned out to be a moron proves that we can’t trust the job to someone inexperienced and therefore we should elect …

… wait for it …

… Rudy Giuliani.

I explained to him that not only did Giuliani not have any relevant experience, but that Obama’s foriegn-relations positions reflected the thoughts and beliefs of people with real experience, while Giuliani’s tracked with the ravings of Cheeto-coated Moms’-basement bloggers, but he wasn’t having it. Giuliani wanted to kill brown people, so he was Very Serious.

Of course, my brother has now moved on to McCain. Effortlessly.

Wasn’t the Bay of Pigs project concocted during the Eisenhower administration and JFK just inherited it? My understanding was that JFK’s big mistake was thinking he had to go along with the cockamamie scheme to show the Republicans that he could be tough on Castro.

Always a mistake to try to impress a Republican.

“It’s like comparing apples and radiation-enhanced vampire zombie oranges.”

Sir, you are a poet and a scholar.

Hey Bradley,

You’ve obtained the title of Darwin’s Nominee and your goal can’t happen quick enough.

“as well there being limited evidence of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo.”

I wish that this statement were true, but it’s not. Mass graves were regularly discovered and excavated in Kosovo over the last decade, ranging in sizes from dozens to hundreds. Many thousands of executed corpses have been pulled out of the ground. You can argue whether US foreign policy requires us to intervene in something like this, but you can’t even begin to argue that it didn’t happen.

Here’s just a sample:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/473017.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/368524.stm

http://www.kosovo.net/news/archive/2005/May_15/1.html

http://www.glypx.com/BalkanWitness/graves.htm

you forgot about the destruction of new orleans.

There is NO experience that prepares you for the job of President of the United States. Hell, there is no resume that can prepare you to be the president of Uruguay. It’s not equivalent to any other kind of job. It’s not the same as being, well, anything else. It stands alone, so everybody who ever took the oath of office started out with a steep learning curve.

Isn’t it strange that everybody claims that THEIR experience is the RIGHT experience, and everybody else is, well, inexperienced and not ready. At what point are we going to look back at history, think about earlier candidates, and refuse to accept this patently false, and frankly irrational position?

We want someone to take this office with a particular worldview. Kind of a sensibility, one that we would use if it were US taking the oath. Tough, but compassionate, with a surfeit of common sense and an ability to work the margins, manage the outcomes, move agendas rather than fight minutae.

Obama’s right about one thing. As long as we keep accepting the same tired old irrational explanations for office qualification, we’ll keep getting the same old politicians, doing the same old things. I don’t have any idea if Barack is truly different, but at this point, looking at the three players in the game, I’m fully prepared to give him a shot…

Nailed it once again, mikey. I’ve been saying something (not quite as eloquent) since day one. I want someone with little or no preconceptions. Someone who can look at a situation and say, “Ain’t no gas in it.” Y’know?

One thing, tho….. don’t say shot. chance; give him a chance. I’m still nervous about that, especially with all the Kennedy’s saying how much like Jack he is.

Anyone else remember the Lewis Black bit about how we should elect a president?
You take a cat up in a plane to 50,000 feet and drop it out the window*. However it lands on, the person standing next to them is our new President.

*I do not, nor have I ever, advocate violence against our furry, fuzzy lovable kitties.

I think that having a pissed-off and frightened cat landing on one’s head would be a very good preparatory experience for the office of President.

However it lands on…

s/b Whoever.
Carry on.

Now, you can correctly argue that the Bay of Pigs and Waco were two unmitigated disasters. What you cannot argue with any good conscience is that those foul-ups are comparable in terms of both blood and treasure to the string of screw-ups, fiascoes and outright catastrophes that the Very Experienced Team Bush has overseen.

Brad 1, Strawman 0. Well done, and I think that is a good match-up for you. Your point would even be relevant if I were comparing Bush to Clinton and Kennedy, but since I am pondering Mccain v. Obama, maybe not so much.

Since the point of my post was to toss out arguments we might see McCain use that might sway undecideds/independents/moderates, I figured Kennedy and Clinton were the obvious picks – I have met few moderates still arguing that Bush is an example of anything other than a clown show, although other people’s experience may differ.

And as noted above, Bush works fine as yet another warning against inexperience.

That said, although McCain has done plenty of Rumsfeld-bashing, I doubt he will do much explicit Bush-bashing. Or do folks here seriously think he will? (Hands up if you’re completely unable to discuss alternative political scenarios objectively…)

Tom- OK, I’ll indulge your argument here.

Generally, I think that every president has, at one time or another and regardless of experience, had a major foreign policy fiasco. Ronald Reagan, the Right’s patron saint, had a pretty disastrous go of things in Lebanon, after all. And LBJ, who was certainly seen as an experienced foreign policy man, oversaw the escalation of the Vietnam disaster.

My argument is that experience in foreign policy does not preclude a president from making horrible decisions- heck, Rummy was a long-time fixture on the national security scene and he was one of the most disastrously inept defense secretaries of all time. See also: Robert S. McNamara, one of the “best and brightest” of JFK’s and LBJ’s administrations.

You can argue that Obama’s inexperience at foreign policy would be a detriment if you can show that having experience in that realm precludes a president from fudging up more frequently than inexperience.

Bush works fine as yet another warning against inexperience.

No, he doesn’t. No he doesn’t. He surrounded himself with people who had tons and tons of “experience,” most culled from his father’s administration. And they fucked it all up.
Experience =/= competence, as the last 7 years have shown pretty clearly.

I disagree. George W. Bush had already had tons of experience as an *sshole and failure long before reaching the White House.

Credit where credit is due, after all.

fud said,

Not to mention….Regan and Lebanon

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But hey, he got GRENADA right !!!!!!