Dunce Dunce Revolution
Jonah’s back, and this time he’s mad.
It’s too long to blog. So it’s a whole article. You can find it here.
Here’s the beginning:
On Thursday, I said that David Neiwert’s review of my book, Liberal Fascism, in The American Prospect was the sort of “shallow, cliché ridden, attack-the-messenger stuff that I would expect Ezra to find so persuasive.” But it turned out I’d misquoted Neiwart, for which I apologized. I also said I was bleary from the slog of promoting the book and maybe I was too harsh. Well, now — as they used to say of Nixon — I’m tanned, rested and ready (minus the tan). So with fresh eyes let me say that Neiwert’s review is the sort of shallow, cliché ridden, attack-the-messenger stuff that I would expect Ezra to find so persuasive.
GOLDBERG: My argument, in brief, is that the zeek, frongle, oink, with the ee-yudda woo-woo, ergo Aquaman could totally beat up the X-Men.
[Derisive laughter from crowds of humans, woodland creatures, animate furniture and housewares, pods of dolphins and schools of fishes, the very stones themselves. The heavens open to rain poo on Goldberg, the Earth cracks a sulfurous fissure and laughter peals from Hell. A tree drops a mushy apple on his head. Gravity, disgusted, quits, and all objects in motion remain so, and vice versa. The universe thinks better of itself and begins glumly to recede. Someone hums tunelessly into a kazoo.]
GOLDBERG: Yeah, well, I believe this only underscores my point.1
First, there’s the opening where he tries ever so slightly to tag me as a member of the David Irving Holocaust-denier camp. Then, he whines that I don’t have any credentials and I have no qualifications other than “right-wing nepotism” (You can expect this bleat to get ever louder, by the way, if the book becomes a bestseller). I like that, because it seems it’s only right-wing nepotism that bothers the party poised to nominate the wife of the last Democratic president, a party which remains a cargo cult to the Kennedys — every member of whom (save for pro-Nazi papa Joe) got where they are from nepotism (as for the charge I’m the product of nepotism: Yawn).
Above: Goldberg’s book editor, son of Saul Bellow
Okay, on to the substance.
Okay, on to the substance.
The intellectual dishonesty of Neiwart’s first grown-up paragraph is glorious in its majesty….
01/11 03:27 PM
When, oh when, will these childish liberals cease their silly personal attacks and grapple with the issues?
Leonard adds: Gavin, if I might…?
Then there’s the omnipresent canard that I must be wrong because of fascism’s “overwhelming anti-liberalism.” Neiwert is again displaying either his ignorance or his dishonesty. It is absolutely true that a great many academic definitions — Ernst Nolte’s “fascist negations” for example — cite fascism’s anti-liberalism. And it is true that Mussolini and Hitler spoke of their disdain for liberalism many times, and there are many quotes to that effect. But guess what? These two European statesmen were speaking in — wait for it! — a European context where liberalism generally means limited government: classical or “Manchester” liberalism. They were most emphatically not talking about progressivism or socialism, which are the correct label for American liberalism and/or the American left (as I demonstrate at length in my book).
This is the point at which we reach the tipping point: is Jonah an idiot, or a liar? Paragraphs like this say:
Honestly, it’s not even a good lie. If Jonah has read even one book about Nazism or Fascism — and let’s give him maximum credit and say that he has, in fact, read exactly one book about each topic — he knows good and well that Hitler and Mussolini damn sure did mean progressivism and socialism when they spoke of their hatred of liberalism. Any high-school student knows what Hitler did to the communists; anyone who’s read Boswell’s books — which Jonah cites as a source — knows that socialists were the primary targets of the fascisti. If you want a picture of the future, picture bullshit dripping from a Goldberg’s face — forever.
Then there’s some throat clearing about how I misstate the state of the academic consensus on fascism. That’s too weedy to get into here, but I don’t believe I do and I think fair-minded readers will see this simply by reading the introduction.
It’s…it’s like he’s not even trying anymore. “Neiwert says I do this, but I don’t. I can’t tell you why other than to just say, BUY MY BOOK!”
Yes, it’s true. Many historians call Nazism a right-wing enterprise. One of the arguments of my book is to demonstrate that these historians are wrong to do so. If that enrages the trade guild controlling most of academia, them’s the breaks.
Sure, a bunch of historians say the opposite of what I write, but they’re wrong! And there’s a big conspiracy of academic commies ganging up on me to protect their well-paying jobs from my awesome truthiness!
Moreover, I am hardly alone in this point of view. Friedrich Hayek, Paul Johnson, Richard Pipes, Milton Friedman, Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn, John Lukacs, Joshua Muravchik, A. James Gregor, Michael Ledeen, Ayn Rand, and — as I show in my book — countless contemporary observers of classical fascism agree with my view in whole or in part.
Well, he’s got us there. He does have the support of a large number of “observers of classical fascism”, all of whom happen to be right-wing ideologues, libertarians, and doctrinaire conservatives.
One last point on this. The issue isn’t racism-as-bigotry. The point is racial essentialism, the idea that race matters (the title of a book by Cornel West, if memory serves). In America, conservatives argue for colorblindness; the Left does not. The Left believes in the iron cage of racial identity, the Right does not. The Left believes in a racial spoils system, the Right does not. And yet, we conservatives are kith and kin of the most intense racial essentialists of the 20th century? These dots, too, do not connect.
See, after centuries of oppressing minorities, conservatives now believe in not doing anything to help people who have been the victims of racism, while progressives are all ‘let’s try and HELP people’! Who are the real racists, hmm?
Very quickly: As I write in my book, the Nazis were determined to destroy their competition. That is why they hated the Communists. The propaganda that says the Nazis were the opposites of the Communists because they hated each other is idiotic. Hamas and Fatah hate each other deeply, Trotsky and Stalin battled for power, and left-wing academics get their panties in a bunch over where some fellow left-winger puts a comma in a sentence. In none of these cases does mutual hatred translate to ideological divergence.
Only a guy as utterly dishonest as the Doughy Pantload could first state that Hitler and Mussolini didn’t hate socialists, and then turn right around and say, oh, okay, yeah, they really hated socialists, but it was just because they were “competition”. And for real, how can you say with a straight face that there were no ideological divergence between Stalin and Trotsky? That’s complete and utter nonsense. Of course, we are silly and childish and immature here at Sadly, No!, so he won’t respond to our having pointed out what a complete hollow fraud he is, but we’ll know, boys and girls. We’ll know.
No, what’s comical is Neiwert’s attempt to cling to the myths upon which he relies for his daily bread. And that brings us to the close of his review which is really just a recitation of the same usual talking-points about how if you scratch an American conservative you find a Nazi underneath. And since one of the primary goals of my book is put that slander to rest, it’s no wonder he wants to protect his gravy train by attacking it so shabbily.
Dave Neiwert is a hard-working and highly distinguished freelance journalist who works like hell to get across a point that a lot of Americans don’t want to hear. Jonah Goldberg is a lazy zero who got his cushy job at a national magazine through pure nepotism and who got a book published at a major house that wouldn’t have made it out of the slush pile on its own merits. And Neiwert’s the one riding the gravy train?
1 This and many equivalent phrases ©1998-2008, Jonah Goldberg.
Heh de heh. Goldberg is such a treasure.
Dave Neiwert must be a vegetarian. I’ll bet he even likes ******** *******.
Nepotism? Huh? Bush? Who? Pro-Nazi Prescott? Huh?
This particular bleat will indeed need to be loud because there will be plenty of people queued up to give him tear him serious, substantive set of new assholes.
Poor J-Load. He thinks people snarking on him because of his mom are the worst of his troubles.
How awful! Neiwert mentions Goldberg in the same breath as a Holocaust denier, in an underhanded attempt to imply they are both the same species! That would be like naming a book “From Mussolini to Hillary Clinton” to try and tar them with the same brush–not that anyone would ever do THAT!
And I stupidly clicked over to see if Jonah said anything else… Why is it that every time I read something about Liberal Fascism I go to myself “there’s no way someone can be paid to argue in this fashion…” and yet every time it is usually even stupider than teh sadly noes makes it out to be.
Yeesh. Can I get paid to write this dribble? I mean it seems like you need neither qualifications nor any coherent thoughts let alone an argument.
Well, at least he recognizes the very rigid laws of blogging and understands the consequences of violating the length limits which were instituted into law by Liberal Fascists who will break down his door and eat his children if the Blogging Violation Hotline rings. We are Adolf Doe – and don’t you forget it, Jonah!
Either that or he’s trying to up his writing cred because he’s, y’know, an “author” now. What a nozzle…
. . . Gravity, disgusted, quits, and all objects in motion remain so, and vice versa. The universe thinks better of itself and begins glumly to recede. Someone hums tunelessly into a kazoo.
Holy shit that’s beautiful, Gavin.Thank you for rescuing me from the suicidally unfunny subject matter in the post immediately south. (No offense to Mencken — not his fault.)
The intellectual dishonesty of Neiwart’s first grown-up paragraph is glorious in its majesty….
Well, you know, we could say the same about Goldberg, just substitute his name for Neiwert’s, except that as Jonah himself has readily admitted, he’s no intellectual.
So that just leaves “dishonesty”…
Waaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!! somebody picked on my book, using facts and stuff! And he was whining and bleating! Baaa!!!!!!
“I like that, because it seems it’s only right-wing nepotism that bothers the party poised to nominate the son of the last Republican president, a party which remains a cargo cult to the Bushes — every member of whom (save for pro-Nazi papa Prescott) got where they are from nepotism (as for the charge I’m the product of nepotism: Duh).”
Fixed.
“I like that, because it seems it’s only right-wing nepotism that bothers the party poised to nominate the wife of the last Democratic president, a party which remains a cargo cult to the Kennedys — every member of whom (save for pro-Nazi papa Joe) got where they are from nepotism (as for the charge I’m the product of nepotism: Yawn).”
I’m no fan of either clan, but there’s a little bit of a difference between being elected by millions of people multiple times and having your mum land you a cushy writing job.
Favorably comparing one’s self to Nixon is a sure sign that your following arguments will not go very well.
I note that Goldberg does not, actually, defend himself against charges of being a hack.
Nice to see Jonah still treats the English language like Buffalo Bill would his next handbag.
Um, if Hillary is ELECTED, doesn’t that sort of, well, negate the nepotism charge? Bill can’t exactly hand the Presidency to Hillary, no matter how hard he tries. Just sayin . . .
(I love the caption on the Bellow Book!)
Jonah needs a theme song. Since I have neither the time nor the expertise to come up with it, I’m going to bleg Gavin to do it.
Your MOTHER underscores my point.
I second the nom for a theme song. Preferably something J-poppy or borrowed from that Yoshida octopus show.
Why is he comparing himself to Nixon? I thought Nixon was a lefty librul fascist Nazi left socialism crypto-fasciliberal left liberal liberal.
Jonah’s Theme Song: “On Top of Spaghetti.”
if the book becomes a bestseller
As it no doubt will. It’s the comedy sensation that is sweeping the nation!
Rats. I gots poor HTML skilllz.
Another brilliant insight from the author of “Authoritarian Narcissism: How The Right Got Hijacked By A Bunch Of Shrieking Crybaby Titty-babies Whose Only Purpose Is To Smear Democrats”.
nepotism n: favoritism shown to a relative (as by giving an appointive job) on a basis of relationship.
That’s from my old Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary.
If someone would have just given the young Pantload a dictionary, think of all the effort it would have saved him.
J-Pop-ish theme song off the top of my head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K50l-9RNBo8
It makes more sense if you’ve seen Excel Saga.
Ooh, a new twist, a new twist!
That piece is likely to be the most nonsensical smearing of cheeto-tinted poo I’ve yet encountered on these internets.
That guy from the Simpsons wrote a book?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:The_Simpsons-Jeff_Albertson.png#file
“The Goldberg Principle”
You can prove any thesis to be true if you make up your own definitions of words.
cargo-cult? I don’t get it. We build things that resemble landing strips and traffic control towers and believe representative structures will cause cargo planes to land? The Kennedys are air planes? Well, Teddy does kind of resemble an air ship. Maybe I should say zeppelin, being a “librul fascist.”
Achtung, Jewish waiter! By which I mean, Achtung, a white guy! =P
as for the charge I’m the product of nepotism: Yawn
Hmmmmm….I’m not seeing the substantive rebuttal to this Very Serious argument. Could Jonah himself be…..a fascist?!
Also, see Neiwert’s succinct rebuttal.
Jonah’s Theme Song: “On Top of Spaghetti.”
OMG, I completely forgot that song existed. You just evoked a memory buried for about 18 years.
Indeed, I state quite openly that I shop at Whole Foods all the time.
And that statement right there shows us the “depth” of thought that Goldpoop put into his rebuttal.
I also like the list of “historians” (like Ayn Rand?!?!?) that he cites as supporting his thesis. I’d like to try that and see how it works: 99.9999% of all credentialed scientists believe that gravity is related to mass. They’re wrong–gravity is related to phlogiston theory. Bugs Bunny and Gomer Pyle back me up on this, so them’s the breaks for those so-callled scientists.
Hey! Works great!
Someone who, right out of the gate, uses the response to ONE guy’s critique of his book as an opportunity to make a gratuitous personal insult to ANOTHER guy is already handicapped in the personal integrity arena.
I’m no fan of either clan, but there’s a little bit of a difference between being elected by millions of people multiple times and having your mum land you a cushy writing job.
Yes, and Hillary has that little thing called a law degree, and she actually practiced law.
I admire Neiwert’s effort but he’s kidding himself if he expects a good faith response to his critique of a book whose very premise is rooted in bad faith innuendo and transparent sophistry. Nope, best to just get on with the Cheeto bags and metaphorical braunschweiger-as-cock slapping. Mockery is all it deserves.
As for Li’l Grunty’s theme song, I think its pretty obvious.
Songs for JoLoad?
Damn, the choices are endless.
Nobody Loves Us.
Pigs, Three Kinds.
I’m a Loser.
Nightmares (mainly for the chorus: Mama, mama, I keep having nightmares…)
Derisive laughter from crowds of humans, woodland creatures, animate furniture and housewares, pods of dolphins and schools of fishes, the very stones themselves. The heavens open to rain poo on Goldberg, the Earth cracks a sulfurous fissure and laughter peals from Hell.
Whoa Gavin. Have you ever considered writing a novel?
Nightmares (mainly for the chorus: Mama, mama, I keep having nightmares…)
JoLoad’s mother probably contributed to his nightmares. She’s like the mother character in the movie Malice.
Favorably comparing one’s self to Nixon is a sure sign that your following arguments will not go very well.
It is a clear sign of the times in which we find ourselves that the near-legendary status of the historical crimes comitted by teh millhouse can now be seen as quaint, nearly harmless, more prank than impeachable offense.
Of course, it is further indication of the depths to which we have sunk that genuine, horrendous crimes, committed with neither stealth nor shame cannot even be addressed indirectly. Indeed, we now find ourselves in a place where the criminals can demand the legislators pass laws absolving them of criminal responsibility to the crimes they freely admit to having committed.
Anger would be the correct response, but there is no one at which to direct it, save the other helpless witnesses to the audacious illegality.
Which only leaves us sadness…
mikey
Good point. There’s always Pink Floyd’s “Mother.” Or The Police’s. Either one works but I favour PF’s.
D’oh!-Bob theme song? How about “Dance of the Cuckoos”?
I never heard of Adam Bellow, so I naturally assumed that picture of his book was photoshopped. Holy shit! How the fuck does crap like that and Liberal Fascism ever see the light of day*?!
* Yeah, yeah… nepotism. I get it.
He gets those organic cheetos from Whole Foods.
Jonah’s theme song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY6VtKJvC4c
Just replace “musical” with “serious, scholarly work” in the lyrics. It’s eerie.
Saith the Pantload:
“I have no problem conceding that the nature of Nazi socialism was in some significant respects different from Soviet socialism. So call it right-wing socialism …”
And then shortly after that:
“And in the Anglo-American tradition, socialism is a phenomenon of the Left. Period.”
So in the West (outside of England and the US) we have right-wing socialism. Inside England and the US, we have only left-wing socialism. “Period”. So all of the “national socialists” in these two countries are left wing by virtue of this finely tuned definition. The National Alliance, the German American Bund, the host of British nationalist groups that have both historically and currently defined themselves as Fascists and modeled themselves after the “classical Fascism” of Mussolini and Hitler … these are all leftists.
QEmutherfuckinD
Whoa Gavin. Have you ever considered writing a novel?
Or at least, trippy retro cartoons?
Good point. There’s always Pink Floyd’s “Mother.” Or The Police’s. Either one works but I favour PF’s.
How bout Danzig’s?
mikey
” . . . as for the charge I’m the product of nepotism: Yawn” In other words: “I’ve heard it all a million times…”
The theme song for Doughy Pantload should be obvious. “Pop Me In The Pooper.”
“So in the West (outside of England and the US) we have right-wing socialism. Inside England and the US, we have only left-wing socialism. “Period”. So all of the “national socialists” in these two countries are left wing by virtue of this finely tuned definition. The National Alliance, the German American Bund, the host of British nationalist groups that have both historically and currently defined themselves as Fascists and modeled themselves after the “classical Fascism” of Mussolini and Hitler … these are all leftists.”
Exactly! It all makes perfect sense when you think about it.
Re: Jonah’s Theme Song: “On Top of Spaghetti.”
I thought it was: “It’s raining cheetos”
Dude… trippy retro rotoscoping.
he tries ever so slightly to tag me as a member of the David Irving Holocaust-denier camp.
Neiwert is using guilt-by-association to discredit Goldberg? Oh noes.
Neiwert must be using some sort of cowardly weasel words in his review — perhaps he makes allegations, then disowns them with words like “but that’s slightly unfair”, withdrawing the allegation like a retractable tentacle. That would explain how he’s trying “ever so slightly”.
Shorter Goldberg: the only critical responses I deem worthy are ones made by people whose books I have plugged, or will be plugging in the future.
What a fucking hack. But that’s wingnut welfare in a nutshell.
As Tom Hilton has noted, Doughbob has a ‘heads I win, tails you lose’ approach: if you’re an expert, you’re ‘hiding behind your CV’, or subject to academic groupthink. Therefore, the only appropriate critics are hacks and morons, ideally both.
And look, he’s a fucking troll with a book deal. That’s all.
If saul/booger/Kevin had a momma with publishing connections, it would crap out something like this.
Shortest Doughload: “I know you are but what am I?”
I read the whole thing. The only part that truly infuriated me was the insistence that conservatives are the ones arguing for colorblindness and liberals rigidly cling to defining people by race. Sure, if by “colorblindness” you mean “ignoring the impact of centuries of bigotry and violence,” and by “defining people by race” you mean “admitting something just a little shameful has been going on with white people and non-white people.” It’s just a disturbingly dishonest way to handle the element or racism in fascism, not that he understood that in the first place–he’s got it a bit backwards and seems to be claiming that Niewert is saying all racists are fascist, but the point is that fascism is inherently racist.
I like Jonah’s response to being called out on nepotism. “I know you are but what am I?” Way to address the substance of the critique that you have zero credentials to reject academic consensus on the meaning of fascism.
Theme song: “California Uber Alles” by The Dead Kennedys
Think he’d get that it’s a joke? Sadly, no.
When you get right down to it, the very worst thing about Jonah’s book is that it’s a SLAP IN THE FACE to everyone who died because of real fascism, and everyone who fought real fascism, and everyone who suffered because of real fascism.
This is one of the things that most disgusts me about conservatives. Not a single prominent conservative will give this book the reaming it deserves. Not only does it make conservatism look stupid, whiny and childish, it also insults the Greatest Generation, the guys who fought – and died – in Europe and Africa fighting Hitler and Mussolini and the end results of real fascism.
Just as they did with John Kerry and every other veteran who doesn’t think like them, the conservatives are throwing the Greatest Generation under the bus for political convenience. They are pissing on my WW II veteran relatives just for a series of nonsensical, gratuitous attacks on “liberals.”
Sickening. How can I have any respect at all for any conservative?
Their silence speaks volume for their ideology.
Um, I have a question. How did this cheeto meme start? I’m sure this amounts to a history lesson, and by history lesson, I’m gonna get a link to the archives with the instruction “see for youself” aren’t I? Also, please excuse my out-it-ness.
I hate that my question about the cheeto meme had to come after Hoosier X’s excellent comment.
Oh, it has nothing to do with the Pantload specifically, it’s just a joke on our stereotype of wingnuts being lazy 30-year-olds that live with their mothers, eat Cheetos and drink Mountain Dew, and spend their (unemployed) days playing video games or watching Star Trek.
Basically your stereotype neo-adolescent, right down to the politics.
Yeeeah.
Way to forget my proper screen name.
I hate Cheetos.
But I love Mountain Dew! Especially the Baja Blast variety.
Perhaps some day I will be able to sit down peaceably with J-Load, and we can each have a Mountain Dew, and we can sort out our differences, and I will not spit in his face the way he has spat in the faces of America’s veterans.
My God. He has demeaned all American efforts in World War II, and the suffering of the Jews and other Europeans under the Nazis, just to … to … call Hillary names.
Monstruous. Lucianne had created a horrible monster.
I don’t think I can joke about this dogshit in human form any more.
You Sir/Madam, have the patience of a saint.
What the hell is he mad about? He got a sweet book deal for writing some of the most crazed wingnutt bullshit ever.
If he’s pissed because the hackery he’s trying to pawn off as a reasoned study of fascism or liberalism is being derided as the ramblings of a rightwing lunatic, well, fuck him, because there’s not one soul on the planet who thinks that wasn’t his intention.all along.
So, Here’s your fucking song Pantload:
When I was a little boy (when I was just a boy)
And the Devil would call my name (when I was just a boy)
I’d say “Now who do, (who-oo)
Who do you think you’re fooling?” (when I was just a boy)
I’m a consecrated boy (when I was just a bo-o-o-y)
I’m a singer in a Sunday choir (oooh)
Oh my mama loves me, she loves me
She get down on her knees and hug me (ahh a-a-ah)
(oh)She loves me like a rock
She rocks me like the rock of ages
And loves me
She love me, love me, love me, love me.
Have your momma get down on her knees one more time for you…
So I think Jonah is saying if you think of the world’s political ideologies as being placed on a kind of spectrum organized, just to pick one option, in alphabetical order, with Bad Evil Totalitarian Fascism being at the RIGHT end of the spectrum, at Z, and Bad Evil Totalitarian Communism being at the LEFT end of the spectrum, at A, then you plunk down all the other political ideologies at their relative places on the spectrum.
Thus, you can put North Korea at B, and Communist China at C, Bolshevisom at D, Trotskism at maybe F, and maybe some of the European countries at about H.
Meanwhile over on the other side of the alphabet, of course the Nazi’s have to be Y, and arrange all the other right wing regimes accordingly.
So then Jonah takes Mainstream American liberalism, which should sit at about M, and tries to argue, Gee, isn’t it uncanny how awfully close it is to Z, even though he neglects to mention that Mainstream American conservativism is sitting right there at N.
Nice work if you can get it.
What makes it even more sickening is that his father was a Jew, and Lucianne grew up Jewish, but is now Episcopalian. I have no idea what his religious convictions are.
Is it just me, or did Jonah’s interview in Salon remind anybody else of this?
Because the thought of being subjected to, much less fighting, against real fascism scares Johan and his pals so badly they dump another load in their pants. With the fear comes scorn for those who died (Weaklings!); Envy of those who fought (Don’t highlight my inferiorities!), and (In a sick, never to be fully admitted way) admiration of the fascist leaders (Wow! He like, killed whoever he wanted and had armies and stuff!)
Why do you think these dick scabs so readily slapped on Purple Heart band-aids and have equated “Support the troops,” with “Agree with everything the Chimperor says”? Like their leader, they could give a shit about the soldiers. They fucking hate the soldiers because when a guy volunteers himself into a dangerous situation it does tend to highlight the contradiction of sitting at home screaming for “Moar War!” without actually, you know, signing up to fight in the war.
The fact is (C)*: If they really thought liberals were fascists, we wouldn’t be able to move for the fawning hordes of chi-cons trying to do unto us what Tweety does unto Thompson. [Num num num!]
*Copyright Gary Ruppert.
Nixon: Are you ready kids?
Kids: Aye, Aye, NIxon!
Captain: I can’t hear you.
Kids: Aye, Aye, NIxon!
Nixon: DOOOUUUUGHHHH!!!
Who lives in a basement and consumes fake cheez?
Kids: DoughBob LoadPants!
Nixon: Pompous and shallow and doughy is he!
Kids: DoughBob LoadPants!
Nixon: If nepotistic nonsense be something you wish!
Kids: DoughBob LoadPants!
Nixon: Then blog on teh internets and worship your kitsch!
Kids: DoughBob LoadPants!
Nixon: Ready?
Nixon and Kids: DoughBob LoadPants, DoughBob LoadPants,
DoughBob LoadPants!
Nixon: DoughBob LoadPaaaaannttss!!!
Nixon: HA HA HA HA !!!! I believe this only underscores my point!!!
The trouble with people like the Pantload, is that if the US became a fascist state tomorrow, his first thought would be “yeah, brown IS my colour isn’t it? I wonder where I can buy some nice shiny jackboots?”
He has such a bloated sense of entitlement that he will always imagine himself to be part of the ruling class, regardless of the reality. This is why he thinks he is somehow a significant thinker. He cannot pretend to have the actual authority he craves, so he fantasises that he has moral and intellectual authority.
evilchemistry, did you see the version of that song posted at The Poor Man Institute?
Sadly, it seems to have been deleted from Google Cache and the Internet Archive is not loading for me.
Simba,
I hadn’t ,but kinda figured it had been done. Couldn’t find it with Google, thanks for the link (isn’t loading for me either).
Here it is:
Commenter wjb from TPMI
Are you ready, kids?
(Aye aye, Captain!)
I can’t hear you!
(AYE AYE, CAPTAIN!)
Ooooooooooh
Who writes for The Corner, as wrong as can be?
(DoughBob LoadPants!)
Shameless and craven and pasty is he…
(DoughBob LoadPants!)
If dishonest nonsense be something you wish…
(DoughBob LoadPants!)
Then welsh on bet and whine like a bitch!
(DoughBob LoadPants!)
Ready? DOUGHBOB LOADPANTS…DOUGHBOB LOADPANTS…DOUGHBOB LOADPANTS…
DOUGHBOB…LOADPANTS!
Shameless and craven and pasty is he, LOL
Contact Italics Tag Central if this worked.
oops I broke it
Sure, if by “colorblindness” you mean “ignoring the impact of centuries of bigotry and violence,” and by “defining people by race” you mean “admitting something just a little shameful has been going on with white people and non-white people.”
Spot on. Using the Goldberg model, people who wanted to end apartheid in South Africa were the real racists, because they were obsessing over the differences between being white and black in that country, while people who wanted to ignore all of that and let the markets decide (to give them huge windfalls in gold and diamonds)were “colorblind”.
We are being way too nice to Jonah Goldberg.
We need to get this out there, and show the world exactly who Jonah Goldberg is, and exactly how shallow and opportunistic is the conservative movement.
And when their house of dogshit melts away when sprayed with the hose of truth, they will only have themselves to blame, for building a house out of dogshit to begin with.
Realist said,
January 12, 2008 at 22:23
Is it just me, or did Jonah’s interview in Salon remind anybody else of this?
Sure, but isn’t this closer to the mark?
Hattie said,
So when in the name of all that is holy is somebody going to bury him?
If there was any honesty or decency or intelligence anywhere in the conservative movement, THEY would be doing the burying, just to maintain a shred of credibility among the great, detached, undecided middle who haven’t figured it out already.
Conservative support (see Rich Lowry’s column this week) and silence shows the whole movement to be just as culpable as J-Load.
I must insist that this is Jonah’s theme song.
myiq2xu said,
“The Goldberg Principle”
You can prove any thesis to be true if you make up your own definitions of words.
I do not deny that Doughy definitions differ from classical definitions. Indeed, it is central to my point. For a Doughy definition must not define the character of an object or an idea too narrowly, that could lead to a unique and identifiable trait – in this way lies madness.
A Doughy definition must remain fluid and must maximize the freedom of the object and cannot be hindered by rhyme, reason or independent ideas that exist outside of the Doughy mind. The Doughy definition must leave the object or idea unfettered and unconstrained and free to float like the butterfly, for this way lies maximum obfuscation and plausible deniability.
A passage from The Tao of Jonah
I think the Right are too busy tearing apart the shaky alliances between the Theocrats and the Plutocrats to give any attention to the bletherings of this mental midget.
After all, no part of his book has any bearing on current political issues. All he does is fellate a largely imaginary idea of “the right” without attempting to define it. Thus, anyone who identifies as conservative in any way is not threatened by the Pantload.
After all, it isn’t THEM that is being slandered.. so why should they care? That is how right wingers think.
projection, thy name is Jonah Goldberg.
This from the individual who calls liberal Americans Nazis. That’s not slander….noooooooooooo.
A person with half a brain doesn’t run around calling every Tom, Dick and Harry a Nazi just because they prefer the Democrats over the Republicans. Only a snivelling stupid person suffering from a bad case of sour grapes does that.
Rich Lowry reviewed it in his column this week. Anybody who has a newspaper that carries Lowry should write a letter to the editor about how Jonah’s book dishonors the millions who died under the Nazis and the millions who fought.
Make conservative readers defend it!
Hoosier X:
Look at it this way: all the conservatives who don’t back away from the Pantloadicon like it was a big stinking pile of horsecrap are now in a position where they have to defend it.
Defend it on the merits … think about that. All sort of otherwise intelligent and apparently thoughtful conservatives are either going to have to claim that FDR and Mussolini were kissin’ cousins or admit that the Pantload is in fact totally full of shit.
I don’t know about you, but even if I were a conservative, I wouldn’t want to be put in the position of defending this load of pants.
Hey Jonah, we don’t even have to scratch your surface to know what you are.
Shit, looking at your unflagging support for the Bush administration and everything it has done, you’re this close to being a guy who’d jail people indefinitely for their political views.
The moustache belongs on you, fuckface.
Leonard Pierce said,
January 12, 2008 at 23:15
I must insist that this is Jonah’s theme song.
You lied about the lies that you lied about
You even lied to your aunt when you went down south
You lied, and a body builder kicked your butt
If you was in Egypt you’d lie to King Tut
Point to Mr. Pierce.
and that brings us to the close of his review which is really just a recitation of the same usual talking-points about how if you scratch an American conservative you find a Nazi underneath. And since one of the primary goals of my book is put that slander to rest,
There’s a typo in here.
“and that brings us to the close of his review which is really just a recitation of the same usual talking-points about how if you scratch an American conservative you find a Nazi underneath. And since one of the primary goals of my book is just a recitation of the same usual talking-points about how if you scratch an American liberal you find a Nazi underneath…..”
Fixed it.
Of course like so much else about “conservative” political discourse in early 21st century America, the real thrust of Goldberg’s book is an effort to turn matters of fact — fascism is a political movement of the far right — into matters of opinion — leftists says fascism is a political movement of the far right, conservatives say it’s a political movement of the left, who’s to really say which is right?
Welcome to the world of wingnut relativism.
I’m going to bronze this comment and hang it on the wall. That’s an excellent observation and it really strikes to the heart of why SN! has to mock the Pantloadicon.
One point to make … a standard troll is best ridiculed or ignored. It’s a mistake to argue seriously with a troll. The bookdeal troll cannot be ignored, however. It has to be ridiculed.
It’s like the kid in high school who says you sister is a whore … if you ignore it, pretty soon all sorts of guys will be asking you what the going rate is for anal. You can’t legitimize it by arguing that your sister isn’t really a whore. Rather, you have to point out that that kid’s mom has a reputation for “entertaining” “gentlemen” “callers”.
So that’s why Lucianne Goldberg is a dirty whore.
And within a few months his last thought would be “Gee, I guess unintelligent dough blobs don’t really fit into the fascist ideal.”
Oh well. Let’s sit back and watch LœdenHösen’s spastic attempts to simultaneously hide his ignorance and defend his “thesis.”
A feat on par with using a sieve to fill a cistern.
O/T, Lindsey Beyerstein has the latest on Huckabee’s views of men and women. God help us all if this idiot lands the top job.
Can’t he find a church to preach in and stay out of politics?
Really? I haven’t memorized the thing but I don’t remember that one. I’m also not sure how a person can both submit to and receive 100% from another.
cHuckabee is trying to reassure the sad “men” who clutch their willies when they see HRC. Pity he doesn’t remember that women are allowed to vote. Perhaps he’s hoping the men will tell the women how to vote hence: Do what the guys tell you ladies!
“That is why they hated the Communists. The propaganda that says the Nazis were the opposites of the Communists because they hated each other is idiotic.”
Did he just contradict and belittle himself in two consecutive sentences?
“and left-wing academics get their panties in a bunch over where some fellow left-winger puts a comma in a sentence.”
Which is just as bad, if not worse, the the mass slaughter of millions and the repression of political enemies with violence.
Maybe Huck is also hoping that he’ll get votes of admiration from guys who, like himself, are married to women who tower over them (his wife is widely known here in Arkansas as “Jethrene”) but who, unlike him, haven’t been able to get their hulking wives to “submit” to anything and who, in fact, are regularly kicked in their shrimpy white-guy asses by those same Amazonian spouses.
Okay, I wrote the following to Doughy:
Doughy (or if you prefer, Mr. Pantload):
Please understand, it is not that we do not want to take you seriously. It is that we CANNOT take you seriously.
First, your entire career is built not off of your own talent, but because you are the Spawn of Lucianne. What never ceases to amaze many of us on the Left is the high regard for meritocracy on the Right in everything except your own careers (you, JPod, Billy Kristol, the Kagens, etc.). I have a feeling that without your mother, you would be a Comic-Book Guy from the Simpsons. Nothing wrong with that, but then I would not see your vomit syndicated in my newspaper.
Second, to cite one example of how little you actually know, you continue to make statements you cannot actually back up with funny things called “facts.” For example, I am a liberal who is also a practicing Christian. I do not practice the “religion” of Liberalism. Did you realize this was possible, or are you just trying to be as insulting as you possibly can? Either way, it shows such poor discernment and judgment on your part that you appear to us as nothing but a horrible joke. That you are taken seriously by anyone who is not your mother does not speak well for the state of discourse in this country.
So, accept Tom Wolfe’s accolades. The rest of us will keep on insulting you as the know-nothing, braying ass you have demonstrated yourself to be. We certainly will not be dialoging with you about your “discovery.” I do wish to share with you The Goldberg Principle: “You can prove any thesis to be true if you make up your own definitions of words.” DeleteReplyForwardMove…
I got the following reply:
Yawn. That’s right all of these newspapers picked up my column making me the most widely read syndicated columnist in America under the age of 40 because they all fear or love lucianne goldberg. Tom Wolfe raved about my book without having a clue who I am before getting it, because of her. I launched NRO the most successful conservative website of its kind in America all because she was telling me what to do. For the record, I’ve never gotten a job from her or thru her. Your toolishness is astounding. Get a life chief.
I have been insulted by the PANTLOAD!
Congrats, Andrew.
You might want to let the doughy pantload know that NRO
the most successful conservative website of its kindis America’s shittiest website.I’m not calling Jonah an asshole. I just think that he’s small and smelly and full of shit.
But the entire premise of my new book is all about certain features which Jonah happens to have in common with an asshole.
But call him an asshole?
No sir, that I will not do!
I just sent this to Doughy from Wikipedia:
Goldberg’s career as a pundit was launched following his mother Lucianne Goldberg’s role in the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal, when he wrote about the “media siege” on his mother’s apartment in the New Yorker.[3] [4]
Goldberg has spoken of his mother and the Lewinsky scandal:
“My mother was the one who advised Linda Tripp to record her conversations with Monica Lewinsky and to save the dress. I was privy to some of that stuff, and when the administration set about to destroy Lewinsky, Tripp, and my mom, I defended my mom and by extension Tripp…I have zero desire to have those arguments again. I did my bit in the trenches of Clinton’s trousers.” [5]
These tapes became the focal point of the Lewinsky scandal. Jonah Goldberg was privy to the tapes and the conversations Lucianne Goldberg had with Tripp because he served as a vice president of his mother’s now-defunct literary agency. When the scandal broke, Goldberg defended his mother and Tripp during the ensuing media firestorm.
Doughy, if Wiki is wrong, correct them. Otherwise, admit that you are a pundit because of that bitch of a mother of yours.
HE BLOCKED ME!
I am so proud. I sent the Wikipedia e-mail to him from an alternate address. He got it.
I launched NRO the most successful conservative website of its kind in America
And what ‘kind’ is that, Pantload? A loss-making tax-writeoff circlejerk for writers so atrocious they’d be shovelling shit in any kind of meritocracy?
You know, that kind of bullshit arrogance means that D.P. is no longer to be considered a mere fool. He’s an offensive fucktard who deserves to be kicked repeatedly up the arse by passers-by.
Go ‘Drew!
Jonah Goldberg was privy to the tapes and the conversations Lucianne Goldberg had with Tripp because he served as a vice president of his mother’s now-defunct literary agency.
“For the record, I’ve never gotten a job from her or thru her.”
Yeah, you were promoted to vice president of her literary agency because out of 300 million Americans, you were the only one qualified for the job.
For the record, I’ve never gotten a job
Jonah speak Truth…
A big shot out for Brad!
His e-mail is JonahNRO@aol.com
Feel free to drop him a line…
Granted, he will block you…
And if his “work” is a sign of what kind of literature was going through that agency, no wonder it’s defunct.
Somebody should upload this to Amazon as a customer-supplied image. We can have a pool on how long it takes for them to yank it.
J— said,
January 13, 2008 at 0:51
A big shot out for Brad!
Listen to the tough guy!
“As Huckabee likes to say, you catch flak when you’re over the target.”
Sergeant “Doughy Pantload” Rock reporting from the front.
Speaking of Jonah’s Theme Song:
You know its kinda hard just to get along today
Our subject isn’t cool, but he thinks it anyway
He may not have a clue, and he may not have style
But everything he lacks, well he makes up in denial
So don’t deflate, just play it straight
You know he really doesn’t get it anyway
Gonna play the field, keep it real
For you know a way, for you know a way
So if you don’t rate, just over compensate
At least you know you can always go on Ricki Lake
The world needs wannabes
Hey, hey, do the brand new thing!
He needs some cool tunes, not just any will suffice
But they didn’t have Ice Cube so he bought Vanilla Ice
Now cruising in his Pinto, he sees homies as he pass
But if he looks twice, they’re gonna kick his lilly ass!
So don’t deflate, play it straight
You know he really doesn’t get it anyway
Gonna play the field, keep it real
For you know a way, for you know a way
So if you don’t rate, just over compensate
At least you know you can always go on Ricky Lake
The world loves wannabes
Hey, hey, do the trendy thing!
Now he’s getting a tattoo yeah, he’s getting ink done
He asks for a 13, but they drew a 31
Friends say he’s trying too hard and he’s not quite hip
But in his own mind he’s the, he’s the dopest shit!
So don’t deflate, play it straight
You know he really doesn’t get it anyway
Gonna play the field, keep it real
For you know a way, for you know a way
So if you don’t rate, just over compensate
At least you know you can always go on Ricky Lake
The world needs wannabes
The world loves Wannabes
Let’s get some more wannabes
Hey, hey, do the brand new thing!
And it is true that Mussolini and Hitler spoke of their disdain for liberalism many times, and there are many quotes to that effect. But guess what? These two European statesmen were speaking in — wait for it! — a European context where liberalism generally means limited government: classical or “Manchester” liberalism. They were most emphatically not talking about progressivism or socialism, which are the correct label for American liberalism and/or the American left (as I demonstrate at length in my book).
Hmmm… I got “Mein Kampf” here open to pages 39-50, Jonah, and your large, capacious pants are totally full of something redolent of a pig mega-farm.
Let’s just quote dear old Uncle Adolf, shall we?
“Up to that time I had known the Social Democratic Party only as an onlooker at a few mass demonstrations, without possessing even the slightest insight into the mentality of its adherents or the nature of its doctrine; but now at one stroke, I came into contact with the products of its education and ‘philosophy’. And in a few months I obtained what might otherwise have required decades: an understanding of a pestilential whore, cloaking herself in virtue and brotherly love, from which I hope humanity will rid this earth with the greatest dispatch, since otherwise the earth might well become rid of humanity.”
Page 51, italics are Hitler’s not mine:
“Only a knowledge of the Jews provides the key with which to comprehend the inner, and consequently real, aims of Social Democracy.”
If you read the original, you’ll see that I’m NOT dishonestly cherrypicking these quotations the way some writers *cough* Jonah *cough* do.
In fact, I just found an online version of “Mein Kampf” so you can verify that fact for yourself:
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/mkv1ch02.html
And that brings us to the close of his review which is really just a recitation of the same usual talking-points about how if you scratch an American conservative you find a Nazi underneath. And since one of the primary goals of my book is put that slander to rest by turning it into a slander on American liberals instead, it’s no wonder he wants to protect his gravy train by attacking it so shabbily.
I think you left out some words, Mister Leonard Pierce. I fixed it for you.
So the Pantload’s liberal fascism blog … no comments allowed? He gets to talk and we get to STFU? That’s courageous.
Why is it that most every lib/prog blog allows comments, usually pretty freely, while the main conservative blogs either don’t allow comments or do quite a bit of banning of dissenting opinions?
evilchemistry at 22:38
Evil genius. Thanks for the laugh.
Here’s the really hilarious thing, to my mind.
He is responding to the mockery heaped upon him.. Mostly rather childish responses.
Wouldn’t a serious scholar maintain a civil level of discourse no matter what, and simply ignore any ad hominem attacks, rather than returning them in kind?
But no. People who respond to bad press by throwing tantrums, are simply insecure. A person secure in their self esteem and personal identity will shrug off ad hominem attacks. A scholar secure in the validity of their theories will respond to criticism of their work with a well researched rebuttal, packed with specific references and examples.
“whaaaaaaaaaaahhh! Mummy mummy mummmy! they are making fun of me on the internet!”
More Hitler on the Social Democrats:
“I gradually became aware that the Social Democratic press was directed predominantly by Jews; yet I did not attribute any special significance to this circumstance, since conditions were exactly the same in the other papers.”
“Yet one fact seemed conspicuous: there was not one paper with Jews working on it which could have been regarded as truly national according to my education and way of thinking.”
“I swallowed my disgust and tried to read this type of Marxist press production, but my revulsion became so unlimited in so doing that I endeavored to become more closely acquainted with the men who manufactured these compendiums of knavery.”
“From the publisher down, they were all Jews.”
“I took all the Social Democratic pamphlets I could lay hands on and sought the names of their authors: Jews. I noted the names of the leaders; by far the greatest part were likewise members of the ‘chosen people,’ whether they were representatives in the Reichsrat or trade-union secretaries, the heads of organizations or street agitators.”
“It was always the same gruesome picture. The names of the Austerlitzes, Davids, Adlers, Ellenbogens, etc., will remain forever graven in my memory.”
“One thing had grown dear to me: the party with whose petty representatives I had been carrying on the most violent struggle for months was, as to leadership, almost exclusively in the hands of a foreign people; for, to my deep and joyful satisfaction, I had at last come to the conclusion that the Jew was no German.”
“Only now did I become thoroughly acquainted with the seducer of our people.”
From D’ohboy:
” . . . my column making me the most widely read syndicated columnist in America *under the age of 40**because they all fear or love lucianne goldberg. Tom Wolfe raved about my book ***without having a clue ***who I am before getting it, because of her. . .
Hoosier X said,
January 12, 2008 at 22:05
When you get right down to it, the very worst thing about Jonah’s book is that it’s a SLAP IN THE FACE to everyone who died because of real fascism, and everyone who fought real fascism, and everyone who suffered because of real fascism.
Hoosier X, here’s what a man named Bill Hilla, WWII vet of the 26th infantry, 104th regiment, yankee division, had to say about the shape of this country, going to fight was not worth it. Had he known how things would have ended up he wouldn’t have went. Says 2 years of his life were wasted. He’s so disgusted and also says we’re heading for a depression and a good majority of us may find out what it’s like to stand in a bread line.
Another theme song suggestion.
You know krista, there’s a BIG difference between reading Mein Kampf and having an opinion about it. Indeed, that’s central to my point.
It’s sort of liberal fascist in and of itself to go so carefully through Mein Kampf looking for important points. That is almost as bad as an Ivy-league trained grade school teacher telling a child that eating more vegetables is healthy.
Then there’s some throat clearing about how I misstate the state of the academic consensus on fascism. That’s too weedy to get into here, but I don’t believe I do
I have a Ph.D in history from an Ivy League university; I now have tenure at another. I have chaired, participated in and attended countless panels and sessions relevant to this issue — both on the nature of American liberalism and conservatism and the reality of so-called classical fascism in Europe — ones at the annual big conferences like the AHA and OAH, which bring together historians from a wide range of universities, and in symposia and smaller conferences at universities across this country and in Europe too.
If Jonah Goldberg doesn’t believe the historical profession is of one mind about the place of fascism on the right of the political spectrum, he is wrong. Flatly, completely, thoroughly wrong.
And if he thinks otherwise, he should try a campus speaking tour, so he can be soundly disabused of this childish nonsense in person.
Yeah, classical liberals don’t go to the text. They make the text come to them.
And Goldberg has two words for you, HT: trade guild. He wins the campus tour preemptively. In his mind, at least.
And that brings us to the close of his review which is really just a recitation of the same usual talking-points about how if you scratch an American conservative you find a Nazi underneath. And since one of the primary goals of my book is put that slander to rest…
If one of his primary goals was really to show that it’s not true that American conservatism is in any way fascistic, why didn’t he write a book about THAT instead of Liberal Fascism: Conservatives are Rubber, Liberals are Glue? He apparently believes that in trying to tie American Liberalism to Fascism he defends American Conservatism. Without ever, you know, actually defending it.
Then there’s some throat clearing about how I misstate the state of the academic consensus on fascism. That’s too weedy to get into here, but I don’t believe I do
Has he offered any names of historians who support his bizarre claim? Any at all?
I can’t think of one.
Ripley said,
January 13, 2008 at 0:58
Speaking of Jonah’s Theme Song.
(The youtube to Ripley’s suggestion.)
Boy, how often do you get a chance to say that?
HT, don’t be silly. All a campus speaking tour would do is confirm the Pantload’s belief that academia is controlled by an evil cabal of Marxists.
HT, are you trying to say that Hayek is not a respected historian?
Mein Gott, the nerve!
And Goldberg has two words for you, HT: trade guild. He wins the campus tour preemptively. In his mind, at least.
I’m sure that would be his response, but the profession is by no means one marked by group think.
You have to remember that historians make their reputations on establishing new perspectives and often contrarian positions. We love to argue, we love to take down old modes of thought. Being labeled a “revisionist” is usually the first way a newly minted Ph.D. makes a splash, and they have done it with virtually every major issue, bar none. (N.B.: “revisionism” does not apply to Holocaust deniers, as revisionism recasts extant facts in a new light; Holocaust deniers simply wish the evidence away.)
If there were any intellectually honest argument to be made that fascism was a left-wing political philosophy, it would have been made — not once, but many times over — by young historians on the make, or older ones seeking to shake things up. It hasn’t.
This argument is laughable at best.
Brett Favre is my Hitler !
HT, are you trying to say that Hayek is not a respected historian?
An influential economist, yes. An historian, no.
Geez, this is what Jonah and others of his ilk have said in so many words, too. Could they – “wait for it” – be down with Hitler?
Lesley:
Doy.
And Ayn Rand isn’t a historian, either? My world is shattering around me!
Jonah has no idea what it is real historians actually do. If he ever tried to do it himself, his pants would explode.
Sorry, I meant to type hero……or DID I !!!!!
HT, I would greatly appreciate it if you would drop me an e-mail at dneiwert@hotmail.com.
Well patkin, it’s not every day you find Hitler speaking Jonah verbatim. Oh wait…
btw, this dog would love Jonah’s book. He’s teething.
Except that his stock response will be that academic historians, being part of the liberal-fascist institution of academia, are forced to support the consensus or risk being sent to re-education camps. Or Whole Foods.
A reminder for those Sadlynauts who may be too young to have lived under Nixon: Puppetmaster-General Dick Cheney, Prince’o’Darkness Wolfowitz, Perle, and a further representative sample of the worst of the current administration’s monsters, murderers, and large-scale thieves held their first political positions under Richard M. Nixon. They have spent the past 35 years trying to re-write history and prove that Nixon’s attempts to subvert the Constitution and destroy democracy in America were, as Mikey say, “more prank than impeachable offense”.
The fact that they have succeeded in commiting treason of such scope and ignominy that their spiritual master’s crimes seem to pale in comparison does not prove that Nixon was right, but it most certainly proves that we need full-spectrum federal investigations of every facet of the squatting Bush Crime Family Syndicate. Even if the criminals succeed in destroying evidence, commiting malfeseance, scuttling beyond the reach of extradition, and/or claiming pardons under some future Democratic president’s misbegotten idea of “unity”, only the fullest possible exposure of these monsters’ criminal careers will prevent a future generation from suffering under the misrule of Pierce Bush, as directed by Mary Cheney and Simone Ledeen, with Jonah Goldberg as Press Secretary.
HT, the facts you share about the historical profession are not germane to Goldberg’s contention about it.
Has this been mentioned in these parts? I’d do more excerpts, but there’s so little time, so very, very little time…
Oh, and of course, the following excerpt is for entertainment purposes only and is not in any way meant to be a liberal fascist suggestion that it ought be read.
The really amazing part though is how someone in 1941 could notice that there were overlaps between various forms of government and economies such as socialism and liberal democracies and fascism and capitalism some 67 years before Liberal Fascism was published — and it was a crazy leftist Socialist to boot. Forever.
He must have had some sort of a time machine or something because only Joberg Goldbutt has ever thought about these kinds of things with such care or in such detail.
On Thursday, I said that David Neiwert’s review of my book, Liberal Fascism, in The American Prospect was the sort of “shallow, cliché ridden, attack-the-messenger stuff that I would expect Ezra to find so persuasive.” But it turned out I’d misquoted Neiwart, for which I apologized. I also said I was bleary from the slog of promoting the book and maybe I was too harsh. Well, now — as they used to say of Nixon — I’m tanned, rested and ready (minus the tan). So with fresh eyes let me say that Neiwert’s review is the sort of shallow, cliché ridden, attack-the-messenger stuff that I would expect Ezra to find so persuasive.
Shorter: I was a bleary-eyed, travel-whipped apologist for my own stupidity, but now I’m rested and coherent, for me, and will still defend my own stupidity.
Jonah is The Whale of Microcosm to most of what is wrong with this country.
El Cid, you obviously have one of these sort of overly doctrinal, “let’s go to the text” approaches where words get confused for things. Fascist.
Re: Orwell. This pointed explanation of the clear and fundamental differences between socialism and fascism will forever be lost on the likes of Pantload. Forever. States organized for militarism, racism, secrecy, rank nationalism, and the privileged industrialist class simply are not the same thing as states organized for individual liberty, equality, transparency, and human rights, i.e. traditional modern liberalism. They have nothing to do with each other – OTHER THAN the concept of “the state” being prominent. Western civilization is primarily about the concept of the state as a vehicle for governance – in our case, popular governance. In the case of the Nazis, Franco, Pinochet, Stalin, Mussolini, etc., “the state” served the above-stated ends, at the expense of popular will.
However, Loadpants simply can not, and will not, get past the “but it was called national SOCIALISM!” “argument.” Case closed. The end. Hitler = Hitlery. Amazingly, he spent almost 500 pages saying this in a variety of ways, all of which were central to his point of course.
It’s simply staggering. I don’t know how to relate to Pantload’s intellectual laziness.
J, I do not think “not germane” means what you think it means. Goldberg called academic historians a “trade guild.” In context, he was implying that they suffer from group-think. In other words, he denied that their consensus of the right-wing nature of fascism was the result of convergence of opinion AFTER and VIA an on-going critical and often polemical process of discussion, debate, refutation, critique and so on. HT, a professional academic historian, claims that in fact academic historians do indeed engage in an on-going critical and often polemical process of discussion, debate, refutation, critique and so on. I’m not an historian, but I am an academic (philosopher) and from long acquaintance with academic historians — reading their work, attending symposia, having lunch with them — I can also attest to the critical process of academic historians. So unless by “not germane” you really mean “germane,” I think you need to go back to the drawing board with this line of thought.
Yeah, this whole “let’s go to the text” thing is starting to piss me off. It has this whole “elitist” aspect. Pretty soon scholars will start showing up here and….oh, wait….
John, I’m pretty sure that J- is being sarcastic.
I know that someday, the thought of mocking Jonah Goldberg will get old. I just cannot actually imagine it happening.
I thought J– made a typo.
HT, the facts you share about the historical profession are not German to Goldberg’s contention about it.
Fixed!
only the fullest possible exposure of these monsters’ criminal careers will prevent a future generation from suffering under the misrule of Pierce Bush, as directed by Mary Cheney and Simone Ledeen, with Jonah Goldberg as Press Secretary.
Jonah Goldberg would be a perfect choice for a future criminal president. Why only yesterday, Tony Snow was on Real Time claiming the most recent labour force survey results show US employment is rising when the opposite is true. “And more Americans own homes now!” he bellowed, dismissing the subprime crash as some small event of little consequence.
Lying through one’s teeth is a primary requirement for Republican press – and even ex-press secretaries.
Jonah’s song should be Jane’s Addiction “Pigs in Zen”.
Mi estimadísimo Señor Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar:
Es usted, obviamente, un cerdo fascista; solo un despreciable y asqueroso falangista escribiría algo tan certero y relevante, basado en el texto original, para desprestigiar el honorable trabajo de Don Pantalón Escurremierda.
Además, eso solo sirve para reforzar su punto original.
“Jonah’s song should be Jane’s Addiction “Pigs in Zen”.”
Winner.
OR, how ’bout Pink Floyd’s and/or Danzig’s “Mother.”
OR The Stooges’ “No Fun.”
Goldberg about his reviewer
: ” . . . Then, he *whines* that I don’t have any credentials and I have no qualifications other than “right-wing nepotism” (You can expect this *bleat* to get ever louder, by the way, if the book becomes a bestseller).”
Remember the book 1984…the 5 minutes of hate showing a screen of a man speaking in “liberal” terms, about peace, friendship, cooperation….slowly his words become a *bleat* and his face morphs into that of a sheep.
Creepy simularity isn’t it?
Now I want to hear Danzig’s “Mother”, dammit. One of the best songs ever to blast while driving.
My son said something earlier when we were talking about Pantload’s Opus that I’ve heard others say: It’s so stupid and obviously ridiculous, you should just ignore it. It doesn’t deserve all this attention.
I pointed out that this kind of crap may be read and believed by people who, shall we say, lack a decent education. Like the Swift Boat Vets for Untruth, the repetition of lies takes on an aura of truth, if no one steps forward and refutes the lies. And in a case like this, it should be refuted, both loudly and rudely, and the liar in question should be taken to task and chastized harshly.
He saw my point.
Jonah Goldberg, meet the Swift Boat Liars.
Swift Boat Liars, meet Jonah, who has a whale of a story, dreamt up in a twisted and warped mind totally divorced from reality and the truth.
I agree with Hoosier X. I’m a veteran of the U.S. Air Force.
Jonah Goldberg, just like the Swift Boat Liars did, has spit on all patriotic U.S. citizens who’ve served in the U.S. military, both those serving currently and those who have served since the dawn of our democracy.
Jonah has slandered all U.S. citizens, Democrats, Republicans and Independents, who disagree with the twisted policies of the neo-Fascist wing of the Republican Party. Yes, that’s right. The neo-Fascist wing, whose members will never be confused with being bleedin’-heart liberals.
But, of course, the Nazis, Stalinists, Osama bin Laden, Timothy McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, Donald Rumsfeld, Karl Rove, Jonah Goldberg, the Swift Boat Liars, etc etc, will never be confused with being bleedin’-heart liberals either.
But why do I lump Jonah Goldberg in with the Swift Boat Liars?
Hoosier X hit the mark concerning Jonah Goldberg’s disdain for all patriotic American citizens who have fought or are presently fighting against fascism in whatever form it appears, especially since fascism is an anathema to any freedom-loving democracy.
The Swift Boat Liars, in attacking the Vietnam War record of Sen. John Kerry before the 2004 presidential election, first attacked the Pentagon’s medal-awarding practices in their attempt to go after Kerry.
A U.S. Navy spokesman, in mid-October 2004, just weeks before the November 2004 election, responded by defending the Navy’s issuance of medals for valor to Lt. John Kerry three decades earlier, while also defending the issuance of medals to all U.S. Navy personnel, including any medals issued to members of the Swift Boat Liars. Someone at the U.S. Navy Department “got” what the Swift Boat Liars had really done in their salacious attack on Kerry’s Vietnam War record. They had attacked all U.S. military personnel who’ve ever received any medal while serving, because if the U.S. Navy is prone to making mistakes in its issuance of medals, as the Swift Boat Liars claimed was made in the case of Lt. John Kerry, then every service members medals are suspect, but not only those awarded during Vietnam, but any medal ever awarded any service member who’s ever served in the U.S. military since the dawn of our democracy.
And Jonah Goldberg is pulling a similar, nefarious stunt. I’m a Democrat. I’m a Christian. And I will continue to honor my oath that I swore to when I enlisted years ago in the U.S. Air Force, to defend our liberal democracy from fascist right-wing politicians, fascist right-wing religious leaders and fascist right-wing pundits who care nothing for the inherent right of all U.S. citizens to live free from tyranny, no matter how it is being packaged now, or by whom.
Well, if Michael Ledeen agrees with him, it must be true!
His e-mail is JonahNRO@aol.com
He uses AOL. How perfect is that.
OT, but Saul and Booger are not alone:
In recent years, American ships operating in the Middle East have had to contend with a mysterious but profane voice known by the ethnically insulting handle of “Filipino Monkey,” likely more than one person, who listens in on ship-to-ship radio traffic and then jumps on the net shouting insults and jabbering vile epithets…
Rick Hoffman, a retired captain who commanded the cruiser Hue City and spent many of his 17 years at sea in the Gulf was subject to the renegade radio talker repeatedly, often without pause during the so-called “Tanker Wars” of the late 1980s.
“For 25 years there’s been this mythical guy out there who, hour after hour, shouts obscenities and threats,” he said. “He could be tied up pierside somewhere or he could be on the bridge of a merchant ship.”
And the Monkey has stamina.
“He used to go all night long. The guy is crazy,” he said. “But who knows how many Filipino Monkeys there are? Could it have been a spurious transmission? Absolutely.”
ROFLberries. “O^ng Qu^`an cu+’t”. Este es central a mi punto.
When one is tired of mocking J-Load, one is tired of life.
Is anyone else here fascinated by the similarities between Jonah’s brave stand against academic historians, conventional wisdom and accepted reality and the Discovery Institutes clear-eyed recognition that the entire scientific community is either wrong or lying about evolution?
I mean, he’s essentially doing exactly the same thing. He’s saying that “sure, everybody who’s considered an expert in the field disagrees vehemently with my premise, and that just proves they are wrongheaded, deceived tools or lying bastards”.
If you are unwilling to accept the generally accepted rules, definitions and descriptions, you can certainly build an alternative reality based upon your own rules and definitions. But, due to the fact that it’s political polemic, you get people willing to stand behind your dishonesty and misrepresentation. In a perfect science community, he gets uniformly laughed out the conversation. In a world that is primarily described by political ideology, you get ideological fellow travelers who cannot afford, due to the ponderous weight of their own agenda, to honestly speak to the gross inaccuracies of the premise…
mikey
Oracle, you are awesome.
My biggest problem with the military in general is the culture it creates, where disagreeing with right-wing nonsense is so discouraged that people don’t speak out (for one reason or another) as often as they should.
I so want to see more comments like yours. Everywhere.
When pantloads like J-Load call liberals traitors and fascists, they are including in that an awful lot of people who have defended their sorry asses. And they are insulting a lot of people that have done the work they would never do.
They had attacked all U.S. military personnel who’ve ever received any medal while serving, because if the U.S. Navy is prone to making mistakes in its issuance of medals, as the Swift Boat Liars claimed was made in the case of Lt. John Kerry, then every service members medals are suspect, but not only those awarded during Vietnam, but any medal ever awarded any service member who’s ever served in the U.S. military since the dawn of our democracy.
Um. Tender topic. I’ll try to be coherent.
Do me a favor and try to avoid the whole “bling” discussion. The guys that get the medals, for the most part, are the guys who were there while the really fuckin crazy, scared, fed up, stoned nutjobs did something so whacked out that it gets everybody’s attention and is described as “above and beyond”. I don’t want to say too much about the fucking things, but trust me, I have some knowledge of what I speak. The little velvet box is a millstone around your neck, an anchor full of guilt and horror, they give you at the expense of lives that were lost. Or they give the survivors, but remember, somebody had to live to describe the acts of madness.
Many of us did not commit the madness. The military figured out long ago that handing out the bling makes the people feel better about “the sacrifice”. Blown up, mutilated, bayoneted sons, brothers and husbands should not ever, EVER be felt good about. And no fucking colored piece of metal and a pretty silk ribbon can make it right.
Everybody who served under fire did their jobs. And almost none of them are heroes. They went, they did the best they could, and they didn’t run. Many died, hard.
The only bling to give a SHIT about, or respect, are the CIB and the Heart. I keep those, and I know exactly where they are. They MEAN something, and they matter, and they have within them at LEAST as much pride as guilt. Anything else they ever might have given me I’ve long thrown away. As it should be…
Thanks for letting me say that..
mikey
Thanks for saying that, mikey.
I just finished reading yet another history of the Vietnam War and I there is absolutely nothing I can say about any of it in the presence of the people who were there, American or Vietnamese. I can’t tell you a thing and there is no reason to try.
To the people who try to re-write the history of the that conflict, there is PLENTY to be said.
If you want to know about vietnam, there’s really only two books that matter.
“Fields of Fire”, by now Democratic Senator James Webb. Ok, it’s jarheads, so you have to get past the institutionalized mental illness, but it will make you understand what life in the field was like.
“Close Quarters” by Larry Heinemann. He was armor, riding M113s a little earlier in the war. But for a model of what happens to a normal human being in the course of a 12 month tour, the degeneration, the loss of moral bearings, the pain and the sorrow and the anger and the guilt and the sickness at heart, you can’t do any better.
You won’t come away from either feeling uplifted or ready to march off to foreign conflicts under martial music, but they will make you understand that modern conflict is a pointless exercise in destruction and brutality, and the solution is to get beyond the “projection of power” and to find a way to live together in peace…
mikey
Thanks a lot, mikey.
My best friend speaks very highly of Webb’s book.
The book I was reading was Jonathon Neale’s “People’s History of the Vietnam War.” Lots of context for why we there in the first place, and excellent chapters on Vietnam and the U.S. since the Fall of Saigon.
John, I’m pretty sure that J- is being sarcastic.
Yes, I was. I thought putting “the facts” up front would tip my hand, but alas, no.
But in a sad way, one could argue accurate, compelling information put forth by a professional historian that undermines or demolishes Goldberg’s assertions about that individual’s field is not relevant to these assertions or the process by which Goldberg has generated them, because it really doesn’t matter what contradictory evidence is presented. It is not going to crack the smug, hermetically sealed, paranoid world view mikey describes above at 4:37.
Theme song you say?
Wouldn’t a serious scholar maintain a civil level of discourse no matter what, and simply ignore any ad hominem attacks, rather than returning them in kind?
Most likely. But you’re talking about Jonah Goldberg. Whoever said he was a serious scholar? Or a scholar of any sort? Or to be taken seriously in any given scenario? He’s a blobby rightwing tool, nothing more or less. If there were a rightwing “Animal House,” he’d be Flounder. There’s no reason whatsoever to give him this much attention.
EXCEPT.
As has been pointed out in this thread somewhere up above, he’s slandering American liberals. That was always the point of even thinking about “writing” this idiotic book. And, redolent of pig shit though it may be to anyone with a three-digit IQ, it is OUT THERE and thus will be to some degree ameliorated into the public discourse. That is why he’s getting so much derision. It must be loud and sustained in order to try to shame these creatures, if that’s even possible.
Oh, and I’ve changed my mind about trolls. Gavin, Brad, HTML, whoever: Don’t ban ’em. Let anyone who wants to make a comment here make it. We can deal, they can’t. That’s why they censor. Because in the end, at heart, if they have one, they are the fascists, and they know it, and that is indeed fucking central to my point.
Doughboy missed his true calling.
Larry Heinemann
Paco’s Story was terrific.
Yeesh. Can I get paid to write this dribble?
Your Grace: Yes, of course you could. But you’d have to put your soul into deep freeze and never be able to look at yourself in the mirror again.
mikey: Speaking of Vietnam-era books, have you read “The Things They Carried” by Tim O’Brien? I’d be interested in your opinion of it if you have.
MzNicky. I almost made my list of vietnam must reads three, to include the things they carried. I actually hold that one closest to my heart, and cry endlessly and massively when I read it.
Ultimately, I leave it out. For completely selfish reasons. Tim is a poet, not a novelist. He speaks to us, not you. You learn lessons from his books, but you cannot know the way they resonate with other grunts.
Ultimately, I cannot recommend “The Things they Carried” to non vets, because it’s all inside shit. Stick with the guys that say it straight, because the metaphor and the surreal narrative of O’Brien cannot honestly be considered access to the experience. Instead, they are secret code for hurtin units…
mikey
Fuck you … you fucking fucks …
Um. I think that covers it.
mikey: Too late. I read The Things They Carried a month or so ago. I found it spellbinding. Very original and compelling.
Tim O’Brien is another incarnation of James Dickey. Forget how they got to where they got. Just look at the words, the sentence structure, the way the world is all image to them.
For the lack of any other way to say it, god help me, I love them both. And you can pretty much put Dylan Thomas in the same group.
These are people who realized that to tell the truth about the world, they had to go beyond description and narrative. They had to tell us the larger truths…
mikey
werd
Thank you, Hoosier X. And mikey, I agree with you completely.
The “glory” of war is more like the “gory” of war.
But the point I was trying to make was that the Swift Boat Liars, in going after Kerry’s military service record, attacked the medal award’s process itself, thus calling into question any medal, for anything, ever awarded any U.S. military service member. And it doesn’t matter whether it was a Purple Heart, a Bronze Star, a unit citation, or one awarded for exemplary latrine duty (hey, at least I showed up for my tours of duty and didn’t go AWOL like a certain Lt. George W. Bush did),.
My bad. Sorry, J.
Sure, a bunch of historians say the opposite of what I write, but they’re wrong!
“They’re historians! What do they know about history that I didn’t learn at my mother’s teat?”
“Jonah’s song should be Jane’s Addiction “Pigs in Zen”.”
Nuh uh. Warm Leatherette by The Normal. He can play the passenger.
A tear of petrol
Is in your eye
The hand brake
Penetrates your thigh
Quick – Let’s make love
Before you die
On warm leatherette
I don’t think that one works so well for JoGo.
Dan,
‘Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished…and not reflective of his own thinking.
Please don’t apologize, Professor Protevi. I think in a setting like this, when an intelligent reader (i.e., you) does not pick up on the facetious tone intended for a brief comment, the failing is not the reader’s but the writer’s.
Oh, and of course, the following excerpt is for entertainment purposes only and is not in any way meant to be a liberal fascist suggestion that it ought be read.
Here, just for fun, is another liberal fascist go-to text, to which I will go: Orwell’s review of James Burnham’s The Managerial Revolution.
Emphasis his. Bwa ha ha mine. Burnham, as Holbo points out, wrote approvingly of the Franco regime in National Review.
Jonah did exactly the same thing in My e-mail exchange with him, except they were different right-wing ideologues (Daniel Pipes, Ron Radosh, Stephen Hayward, Tome [sic] Wolfe), and he had them explicitly endorsing his book instead of just rationalizing his theory.
Great comment thread: 190 posts, no trolls or broccoli, and book recs from mikey.
A total win.
Jonah’s Theme Song: “All Alone in the World” from Mr. Magoo’s Christmas Carol:
*chopping broccoli*
Huh?
[…] he is presenting in an intellectually honest manner, but Neiwart and Hilton have obviously tried. Sadly, No has the satirical response that Goldberg begs for and which he also dismisses. So much for the […]
HT said,
January 13, 2008 at 2:03
Then there’s some throat clearing about how I misstate the state of the academic consensus on fascism. That’s too weedy to get into here, but I don’t believe I do
I have a Ph.D in history from an Ivy League university; I now have tenure at another. I have chaired, participated in and attended countless panels and sessions relevant to this issue — both on the nature of American liberalism and conservatism and the reality of so-called classical fascism in Europe — ones at the annual big conferences like the AHA and OAH, which bring together historians from a wide range of universities, and in symposia and smaller conferences at universities across this country and in Europe too.
If Jonah Goldberg doesn’t believe the historical profession is of one mind about the place of fascism on the right of the political spectrum, he is wrong. Flatly, completely, thoroughly wrong.
And if he thinks otherwise, he should try a campus speaking tour, so he can be soundly disabused of this childish nonsense in person.
Sigh. Cranks are the betes noires not only of science, but of the humanities, too.
I too am a Ph.D. history graduate of an Ivy League university (hint: Richard Pipes–father of Daniel–was my thesis advisor–yes, yes, I know, but when he wasn’t writing for publication, he was pretty open-minded), but I don’t teach anymore. Things like the Pantload’s screed disgust me no end. Not only does it insult the scholars who have devoted their careers to researching the past, but like Hoosier X and Andrew have said above, this candidate for the pulp mill insults the memories of the millions who died because of fascism (including Soviet POWs, who were by far the largest number of the victims of the concentration camps) or who fought against it in whatever form it appeared.
Sorry for the slight incoherence. I’ve only had 3 cups of coffee on this Monday morning.
Did anyone else notice that Jonah pulls a bait-and-switch here? Racial essentialism is the idea that race is a real entity which predicts immutable and important differences. Colorblindness or a lack thereof has nothing to do with racial essentialism; it’s possible to be an essentialist and argue that race matters (which Jonah can’t possible be stupid enough to think they’re not still doing), and it’s possible to not be an essentialist and argue that race matters–arguing that race is socially constructed and thus has its own sort of reality which must be faced, even as we try to deconstruct it. This kind of thing is explained in the first week of an introductory sociology course.
The density of sloppy, careless thought on Jonah’s part is staggering. I couldn’t pass this crap off in an undergraduate history term paper; it speaks volumes about the quality control measures implemented by the right wing meme machine’s cargo cult version of academia that this guy wasn’t laughed out of his establishment.
Hey, did we mention that we totally needed to reform our entire nation’s tax policies based on some curve this one dude supposedly drew on the back of a napkin?
Let’s do it and see what happens! Oops! Biggest debts ever! Oops! Plunging middle and working classes! Oops!
Only solution — Let’s do it again!!!
The real tragedy of it all is that Jonah’s funhouse-mirror version of history will be much, much more well-known than the work of any of your honest colleagues.
It subverts a vital part of our national discourse–the way that research, whether in history or science, is reported and filters down to the layman. An informed populace is vital–very Enlightenment–but by mangling the methods of accountability so vital to academia and creating a hollow, fake version of it, the whole process is short-circuited, and it becomes impossible to distinguish fact from fiction. Jonah’s just an egregious example; this permeates the current sickness in our culture, where everyone seems to be entitled to their own facts.
(I’m drawing here a bit on some things that David Brin wrote about how the conservative meme machine is cargo-cult academia.)
See, without the intellectual cover provided by the clown cars full of fake academics, the Laffer curve would have remained a joke. But powered by a ton of money and given some fancy words by the occupants of said clown car, this madness was transmuted into common knowledge.
Continuing to refer to David Brin:
And where they could do infinitely more damage.
You are permitted to discuss BadPrescottBush but you are not permitted to discuss BadJoeKennedy. Iran is REGIME (badgov) and America is GOVERNMENT. You have no freedom!
Fossil fuels began their permanent decline in 2005. Thus we begin our permanent slide from modernity, to a new permanent stone age. If you can’t possibly imagine this, how can you imagine utterly improbable science fiction movie premises?
Sooooooo . . . the Spanish Liberals fighting Franco during the Spanish Civil War were, um, Conservative? Really Jonah? Are ya gonna go with that? Because that’s what you’re basically saying, asshat.
To be fair, the Fascists oftentimes weren’t referring to socialism or progressive social policy when they denounced liberalism. They were referring to things like freedom of speech and parliamentary government, so what Goldberg said about “classical liberalism” approximates an attempt at addressing this.
Of course, as we are talking about Jonah Goldberg here, he is in fact either an idiot or a liar, as there is no incarnation of liberalism since its inception, including Democratic Party FDR/LBJ liberalism, that has rejected liberal principles of elected government and freedom of speech and association and other aspects of ‘liberalism’ that Hitler and Mussolini denounced as decadent. Conservatism’s conversion to these principles is far more recent, of course, which is why its popular organizations still foster pseudo-fascist elements on their fringes. Fascism was, in its heyday, considered by its supporters and many wary observers to be the next development away from liberal principles.
My suspicion is that Goldberg, while astoundingly ignorant and unprepared to address the world on the history of politics, is well aware of his dishonesty, while probably less aware of how close his revisionist history on “liberals” is to that of the actual Fascists of the early 20th century.
“And for real, how can you say with a straight face that there were no ideological divergence between Stalin and Trotsky?”
More to the point, how in hellfire can you even remotely think of putting Fatah and Hamas in the same branch? One’s a secular, left-leaning nationalist movement which historically gives disproportionately large representation to the nation’s Christian minority; the other is Sunni Muslim fundamentalist.
The difference between these movements is huge, ginormous, at least as great as the difference between a socialist and a libertarian. Then again, these are the people who believe Obama is simultaneously a Muslim and a communist, so I suppose I ain’t that surprised.
Yawn this you fat bowl of fuck.