Everytime I hear conservatives talk about how much they love democracy I want to wave the photographs of hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans murdered by US-backed rightist proxies in their faces.

This blog post is basically the equivalent of that.

I’m sorry, since when did “democracy” become redefined as unhindered consumption of any and all given resources? Rationing and democratic statehood are not mutually exclusive constructs. Democratically elected representatives impose duties and restrict rights on their citizenry all the time, certainly in times of crisis. What a weird consumer society driven paradigm shift Hillman, let alone Steyn, inadvertently reveal with their language choices.

If Athol Fugard were hired by a major studio to do an African liberation themed remake of “Three’s Company,” but with all the funny intact, but then in mid-season the director gets indicted for indecent exposure in a tropical country, so then the producer gets really nervous about the whole deal, and they hire Nicholas Sparks to rewrite Athol Fugard’s “Three’s Company” into a gritty police drama, well, it would be kind of like that.

I’m kinda surprised John Baird and Stephen Harper aren’t on that biggest asshole list. Baird, the environment minister, showed up at his speaking engagement in Bali in flipflops and beach gear and left the room five minutes before he was supposed to present Canada’s policy on greenhouse gas emission targets. Instead of speaking, he allowed industry reps from the oilpatch deliver a sales pitch on their latest products. Seems to me these guys should be at the top of the asshole list. Steyn’s merely a supporter.

Does Steyn really mean that he would sacrifice all life on Earth for democracy?…..Sure, a small minority of clueless fucktards will gladly keep blowing gasoline through their Humvees even in the face of Planet-death…..it’s “how well you can insulate yourself from [the] underclass.”

Democracy IS the right to drive your Humvee. It is only the beggar/buggar underclass who’s earth will come to an end. The virtuous shall inherit the spoils and create a perfect society. You can never convince us otherwise.

I want to send this to everyone I used to blog with right now. And to every wingnut I know offline. Tie me to a bridge during a hurricane and just let their sorry asses read the truth, baby. This is on key and I have perfect pitch.

There is a belief that Capitalism & Democracy are one and the same. So if you restrict capitalism you must be anti-democracy.

Another belief is that Socialism and Democracy can’t exist together. Stupid.

The USSR was a Totalitarian Dictatorship calling itself Socialist. It looks like our country is becoming something similar calling itself democratic.

gbear, I posted this just for you. (well, top post. but a ways down there’s a really bad Chevy Suburban as well)

So, is the “Anglo-sphere” the new Aryan race? And when are you folks gonna do a chapter by chapter take down on Pantload’s masterwork?

These people are insane.

We’ve never done this before. We’re out where there be monsters.

We are going to have to change the rules in order to survive. How? We really don’t know, at this point. But we DO know a few things.

The world has fallen out of balance. If the “atlantic conveyer” stops, we could all die. At the very least, a billion people will be displaced by rising seas, food supplies will be disrupted and “hot zone” diseases will be pandemic.

We don’t know how serious, or ugly, the solutions will be. But we do know this:

If we are prevented from exploring them, we are doomed. You put your taboos against conversation up at your own peril. You may NOT come to us when it’s too late and insist we solve this problem.

Get on the bus, get off the bus, but fer crissakes, get outta the way…

mikey

It’s a shame Conrad Black got off so lightly.

Black hired a leading sentencing consultant, Jeffrey Steinback, and the result was a noticeable softening of his stance. He recently described America’s justice system as “one of the 10 best in the world”.

In the USA, you get the justice you pay for.

Wow Tyree. Lots of Suburbans and Expeditions up here in snow-land but only the most immodest of assholes drive Hummers or Excursions and they are smug and proud of the disgust they elicit (and they don’t realize they look like tiny lego people pegged into the vast emptiness of that interior). These jerks, even if they believe in climate change, will never change. Most people who casually or ‘somewhat’ worry about climate change figure that if they’re recycling and wearing a sweater in the house they’re doing their part. I think it may come down to you tying yourself to the bridge before anybody gets a clue as to how big this bus heading our way really is.

HTML, I hope you’ve saved this marvelous post to the file which shall one day become your Online Hall of Wingnut Shame site. Because I’d pay to hit that have such a compendium available for reference purposes, and I think there are enough like me for you to put together a sufficient subscription roster that it wouldn’t need to be a drain on your personal financial resources, Dr. Sam Johnson, sir.

Democracy IS the right to drive your Humvee. It is only the beggar/buggar underclass whose earth will come to an end. The virtuous shall inherit the spoils and create a perfect society. You can never convince us otherwise.

LOL, Gbear. On the other hand, while Steyn is perfectly willing to say crap like this for money, he writes smarter than his idiot peers like the Doughy Pantload. Steyn just figures the world won’t get seriously unliveable during his lifetime, at least for rich white first-world Ubermenschen like himself, and after that, he could not care less. Better ten million little brown wogs today, or Steyn’s own grandchildren tomorrow, should die horribly than Steyn should have to concede one iota of his privileged wastefulness — especially when writing in favor of wastefulness is what earns him those privileges.

I think we need to “cap” Steyn’s emissions, though I am somewhat surprised that anything actually escapes the hermetically sealed system created by having his head shoved so far up his ass.

We don’t know how serious, or ugly, the solutions will be. But we do know this

Oh, they got that mapped out already, when the portions of the world that become unlivable in that scenario and the refugees start pouring in they have Lou Dobbs to get them outraged at them instead of contemplating their own short-sighted idiocy.

They could step outside and spontaneously combust and they will have a scapegoat outside themselves.

Mikey, I didn’t see your bus metaphor before I posted mine. Hope we wind up at the same station.

Fozzetti: There is a belief that Capitalism & Democracy are one and the same.

Just so, and a distressing number of people lump Christianity in there too. It’s all one big vague stew that the foamers-at-the-mouth think of as “The American Way”.

gbear–when I got a shot (finally!!) of the Patriot Hummer (driver, of course, by a Suburban Mom with a bad streaky dye job) it was to send to a friend in a rural town in the Netherlands. He thought it must be a drug dealer car having seen things like that from TV only. I got a shot of the lady by the car for him later and he couldn’t believe it.

Seriously? Hardly any Hummers? All we have here! Hummers in every variety, everyone has the NEW Chevy Suburban, Escalades, Excursions, Tahoes, Grand Tahoes, and my favorite The Armada (it’s always alone!!),if they have a Jag anymore it’s the newer kind that looks like a fucking Ford Taurus (hey, I still have taste). I paint all over my filthy mini-van “I’d Rather Be Driving a Real Car” and get out grumbling at these morons looking at them like they’re fucking aliens. And I should be in a real car, dammit.

And people wonder why I like the idea of running a Carl Hiaasen character for President. Hell, I tried to destroy my first bulldozer at age 8. Any more of this shit and I WILL go running off into the swamps. The “Historic Oregon Trail” out here is now lined by a fucking golf course with houses starting at over 1 mil, and I get to drive by it every day. To that parking lot with that flag decal hummer. Or as my late Father used to say, “Over a million fucking dollars to live on a fucking golf course in fucking Kansas. What the fuck is wrong with these idiots? They killed those trees for this fucking shit”?

And this is how I learned that cussing like a sailor is actually a cultural thing for us Greeks.

The War on Global Warming… the Liberal version of the War on Tair’r.

Fear-mongering, hysteria, authoritarian solutions… glad to see the Lefties have been watching and taking notes during the last 6 years. Learn the playbook, perfect the playbook.

Oh yeah, the sky is falling all over the place, but the air in between is just great.

Sure, D-Chance, all those scientists from all over the frackin’ world are in on the plot to deprive you of your god-given right to wear shorts in your home in the dead of winter and drive that butt-ugly Hummer everywhere. It’s all a big ol’ conspiracy.

The actually funny part?

The Cheetohs stained, jergens drenched basement dwellers will have to come out and complete for survival against all the lethal individual forces unleashed in the “survive or die” “personal responsibility” world they’ve been advocating for years.

When real scarcity is being competed for with real weapons with real life and death consequences, they are going to be the last people at the trough. And when they get there, there will be nothing left.

It’s sad that in order for justice to be done, so many innocents will have to suffer too. But I’ll make you this promise. In the post-apocolyptic world they’ve been begging for, when I take their food, their water and their valuables, I’ll leave them for the carrion birds.

And I won’t look back…

mikey

Retardo, the young people today, they think comedy is dirty words. It’s not — it’s words that sound dirty, like “mukluk.”

Tyree – I can go a couple days without seeing a Hummer but I live on one poor side of town and drive three miles to work on another poor side of town. I’m rarely anywhere posh. They’re probably somewhat more common in the western suburbs of Minneapolis.

Mikey – I’ve never even been in a fistfight in my entire life. I can deal with severe if non-apocolyptic weather, but I’m not going to survive very long myself in the world you describe.

“I’ve never even been in a fistfight in my entire life. I can deal with severe if non-apocolyptic weather, but I’m not going to survive very long myself in the world you describe.”

Me neither. However I HAVE seen a lot of martial arts movies and played numerous Street Fighter clones. I think I can hack it. How hard could it be?

Factis, Pinochet did believe in democracy. He had to seize power to protect the people from overturning their democracy, which they obviously would have done seeing as how they had just elected a socialist government.

Just look at what a threat to democracy Chavez is. If the US doesn’t help the Venezuelan people to overturn his government soon, his movement might win another election and doom democracy in that country forever.

“Personal responsibility” Right wing definition: If anything bad happens to you, you have to put up with it, but if you do anything that affects other people negatively, you don’t have to take any responsibility for that whatsoever.

I really don’t understand Humvees. They get similar mileage to a Tatra Kolos, which has 8 wheel drive, a 19 litre soviet built engine, and a maximum towing weight over 10,000 tonnes. You can go out and buy a modest sized armoured car which will manage better mileage.

It’s almost as if they TRIED to make it guzzle as much fuel as humanly possible. It doesn’t help that all US car emission laws have been a thinly veiled attempt to make things harder for the smaller engined and more efficient imported cars. It has been about 40 years or so since the US was last self sufficient in oil supply. Why on earth has it taken so long for everyone to catch on to this simple fact?

Not to harsh on the snark here, but I’ve always wondered: when did “waste” become a core value? I have to ask because having been raised by a father who lived out part of his earliest years in a chicken coop during the depression, and a mother who grew up on a farm lacking electricity and indoor plumbing in her early years, I was taught that wasting anything was something to be ashamed of, not to aspire to. This extended to everything – turning off lights when not in use all the way through ignoring labels that add nothing but cost to an item.

When did the ability to waste prodigiously become the marker for displaying wealth?

When did the ability to waste prodigiously become the marker for displaying wealth?

I think it was the 1980s.

The War on Global Warming… the Liberal version of the War on Tair’r. Fear-mongering, hysteria, authoritarian solutions… glad to see the Lefties have been watching and taking notes during the last 6 years. Learn the playbook, perfect the playbook.

Yeah, cuz if Hitlery wins, she’s totally going to invade China to force them to curb carbon emissions. Plus, she has a plan to tap phone calls without a warrant so she knows who isn’t recycling, and Guantanamo is going to be used to waterboard oil company executives.

At least, that’s why why I’m voting for her.

When did the ability to waste prodigiously become the marker for displaying wealth?

That happened when those who’d grown up in the depression decided that their children should never have to go thru that kind of experience again and showered their children (us boomers) with everything we could possibly want during the post-war boom.

gbear – I was raised by some of those folks, and that was not their strategy at all. They made sure I got the important stuff, like helping me get through college, and called bullshit whenever I wanted a pair of the hippest new “designer” jeans. And it stuck. When I look at the prices on a lot of things, I think, you not only have to be wealthy to afford that, you also have to be stupid. Because there’s no handbag that’s “worth” $5000, no pair of shoes worth $2000, etc. To me such things say more about the shallowness and insecurity of the person buying/wearing/driving/carrying them than about their wealth.

Hardly any of this “wealth” is real though. Most of this overpriced consumer tat is bought on credit, or bought with cash acquired through financial manipulation, or “earned” from companies kept afloat by credit.

Gbear, remember Gordon Gecko? “Greed is Good”?

It was the 1980s. My parents used to remind all us kids what growing up was like in the depression and World War II. There was never any hint that conspicuous consumption could be considered a virtue.

We can thank the Reaganites for that.

When you talk about something other than consumption, you take the risk of reducing America’s consumption. We must consume and consume at growing rates, otherwise you hate America. America is great and strong, yet also fantastically weak, such that anyone talking in any way other than glowingly about consuming has the power to destroy the entire nation’s economy.

So don’t not talk about consuming.

Actually, Peter Sagal (yes, that Peter Sagal, of “Wait! Wait!… Don’t Tell Me” fame) has a chapter in his The Book of Vice on conspicuous consumption and he discusses some sociological studies and theories of how and why waste became a Good Thing (to some). I’m too damn lazy to get up and find my copy right now, which is good, because I’d only plagiarize it… but check it out.

ifthethunderdontgetya:

When did the ability to waste prodigiously become the marker for displaying wealth?

I think it was the 1980s.

==================

It was well enough started in the 1880s to provide material for Thorstein Veblen to give it a name and an analysis, as Conspicuous Consumption.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_of_the_Leisure_Class

What is it about siecles that they have such ugly fins?

I’m never gonna grow up,
Never gonna grow up.
Not me !!!

Gbear, remember Gordon Gecko? “Greed is Good”? It was the 1980s.

But if Gecko wasn’t under 35 years old when he was presenting that message, he himself was a boomer. The notion of conspicuous consumption may have gone viral in the 80’s, but I still think that the seeds were planted in the early 50’s. Even the Beach Boys early songs were about conspicuous consumption.

Our parents may have been telling us about the horrors of the depression, but that was ancient history to a kid’s ears, and our realities were completely different from that. We never had to go to school with cardboard stuffed into our shoes to cover up the hole in the sole. We never went hungry and if we needed or wanted something, a sensible version of it would eventually appear (no $2000 shoes, but not your brother’s worn out shoes either). College for the kids was seen by most boomer parents as something that MUST be provided . We ceased to be a culture of material denial after the end of World War Two, and those with goods to sell have been finding ways to amplify that material desire ever since.

It doesn’t take a genius to see the problem has existed since before the 80s. Take a look at anything produced by the US auto industry in the 1950s. Overweight, flashy, tasteless, and wasteful.

Conspicuous consumption has always existed, and has been a noticeable social phenomenon since the Romans. The question is, when did it become something that the majority are able to participate in?

Obviously, the boom of the 1950s and the rise of the american middle class gave a lot more people the ability to get in on the conspicuous consumption game, but what the 80s contributed was probably the availability of easy credit, and the normalisation of getting into heavy debt simply to finance a lifestyle, rather than to purchase an asset such as a house.

Nowadays, its so easy to get yourself some bling. Credit card offers come through the post every day. This raises the stakes beyond simply having a flash car and designer brands. If any chump can lay their hands on it, how much social status can it possibly confer? So, the status seeker must one-up everyone else in some way, in a never ending cycle of consumption.

On the 4th anniversary of his capture, I thank the biggest environmental terrorist in history is not longer around to practice his scorched earth policy with the oil wells, not to mention his scorched skin policy.

As usual (and I speak as a Canadian), Canada and Canadians don’t present much of a threat on the world stage. If you want to know about a little song to help you keep things in perspective, the song,

That Saddam is Gone Christmas Song

will soon appear at:

http://www.drblt.net

as a sample, and will be added to, not this year’s, but one of two Christmas CD’s Dr BLT will be releasing next Christmas, entitled “Big Bulbs from Dr BLT’s Novelty Christmas Tree.”

SPAM? Sadly, no. When you’re among friends, it’s considered sharing.

Credit card offers come through the post every day.

At work we used to joke about how the only raises we ever got were on our credit limits.

I’ve never even been in a fistfight in my entire life. I can deal with severe if non-apocolyptic weather, but I’m not going to survive very long myself in the world you describe.

Well, on the one hand, Gbear, you’ve got actual friends like Mikey who will help you survive while the Steyns are busy stealing each other’s last Cheetos. And on the other hand, once things get past a certain point of horribleness, a quick death may be “better” than a slow tortuous decline. But for most of the human race for most of human history, it’s been long periods of Hard Times brightened by short intervals of Plenty, and communalism has always been a better survival tactic than i-got-mine-bugger-you, aka libertarianism.

To get back on the Snarkwagon, I’m preparing for the coming apocalypse by storing up knowledge, funny stories, and body fat — things the rampaging steyn hordes will not be able to steal.

awesome post.

Hey, guess who got pwn3d by an Icelandic kid?

c’mon, who do you think?

gbear, the cardboard soles! I’ve had that story from my dad, along with the ‘walked 5 miles to school’ and other classics. I think we could do with a bit of that now, to be honest.

When I were a lad, I had to walk 2 miles to school, and there was no such thing as broadband internet!

Obviously, the boom of the 1950s and the rise of the american middle class gave a lot more people the ability to get in on the conspicuous consumption game
When did Frederik Pohl write ‘The Man who Ate the World’, satirising that period conspicuous consumption? 1956, I think [Googling covertly in another window].
Then in 1960 Vance Packard came over all puritanical about planned obsolescence in ‘The Waste Makers’. How did he put it on the dust jacket?… “the systematic attempt of business to make us wasteful, debt-ridden, permanently discontented individuals”.
Buggeryfuck, is all I can say.

gbear, the cardboard soles! I’ve had that story from my dad, along with the ‘walked 5 miles to school’ and other classics. I think we could do with a bit of that now, to be honest.

You will have, unless the other nations of the world decide it’s not in their best interests for the US to go tits-up.

On one hand, you can argue that the desire to consume conspicuously for the sake of social status is a universal human desire. It can be seen in just about every society throughout history, with notable exceptions such as revolutionary France, and ww2 Britain, where it took very strong social/political pressure to reverse the trend.

On the other hand, for consumerism to become a real problem, it is necessary to have an economy which supports it. Current capitalist economic systems rely on constant growth for stability. Obviously, an economy cannot carry on growing forever, so the need for growth puts on pressure to develop cycles of production and consumption that have nothing to do with any actual need for a product.

The role of advertising in the conspicuous consumption phenomenon is not to be underestimated. The economy demands that people keep spending, so advertising and marketing do their best to create demand for useless products. The natural human urge to show off may be the motive force behind conspicuous consumption, but advertising amplifies and manipulates that desire, until it is a much bigger social and economic force than it would otherwise be.

The problem isn’t going to go away until we restructure the world economy around a sustainable model, where zero growth is a GOOD thing. Eventually, a sheer lack of resources will force this to happen. Just as the earth can only support a certain number of people, it can only support a certain number of humvees.

Loserman’s endorsing McCain. *ashamed to be from Connecticut*

Loserman’s endorsing McCain.

I hope he gave the poor bastard a heads-up, because I don’t want the following headline to read “McCain Slashes Wrists in Tub of Warm Water.”

You know, I almost hate to say this, but someone with whom I disagree pretty strongly about a number of this already pegged this phenomenon pretty accurately, and almost a hundred years ago, too.

Democracy in the hands of these idiots is a tool for advancing their own economic interests. And anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something.

“Just look at what a threat to democracy Chavez is. If the US doesn’t help the Venezuelan people to overturn his government soon, his movement might win another election and doom democracy in that country forever.”

Come on. If W tried to change the constitution even a small increment compared to Chavez you would have been screaming foul.

Hitler wasn’t democratically elected to be a dictatorial leader either – he was elected “fairly”, and then he used his own 9/11 to make sure his power was safe from democracy. Said shifting of power isn’t democratic at all – he was democratically elected to comply with the rules at the time and then he increased his range of power in a way that just wasn’t legit.

Bush and Chavez want the exact same thing (apart from the fact that Chavez was democratically elected to begin with, and he *failed* to shift the constitution) so I can’t help but feel a tad annoyed when people say Chavez can be let off the hook because he was elected – being chosen by the majority doesn’t mean you can start nudging all that power in your own direction, even if you are left-wing help the poor and adress Bush the way he deserves. More power in the hands of *anyone* is bad.

As for Steyn’s latest abortion of a column, I think he has no room to speak of democracy any more, and he definitely can’t uphold some guy speculating about what should be done if the human species is under duress as the essence of environmentalism.

No I do *not* support government intrusion in more aspects of people’s lives just because a majority says it’s OK, but I also think it is indirect *murder* to inflict harmful, deabilitating and deadly weather on people who release one twentieth of the CO2 (I know the 2 is subscript, gimme a break) you ejaculate every day by wasting teh Swaet of YOUR BRAU (TM) on driving gigantic cars and whatnot. You want to fuck with your own neighbourhood because you are a lazy fuck who feels entitled to spend a bunch of stupid shit on your Holy Family, Property and Ego? Fine.

But if your consumption starts killing innocent people and ruining their environments, I will call down every governmental action possible, and you can’t scream for Steyn or Rand to save you – you chose short-term comfort over the futures of other people, and that is not how freedom works.

Random Idiot, our economic model is functionally the same as the behavior of a cancer cell; grow and consume resources until you kill the host. The outcome for the planet will be similar unless there is some serious, hard to live through intervention.

So if democracy has to take a backseat to ecological meltdown and water and shelter riots while plague and starvation run rampant, that’s freedom-destroying misanthropic fascism, but if democracy has to take a backseat to the threat of terrorists, that’s just common sense because The Constitution Is Not A Suicide Pact.

Got it.

Perfectly distilled, D. Sidhe — you should be writing those “shorter” thingies.

The sad fact is, most people are in favour of fascism.. As long as they get to be the one wearing the jackboots.

Chavez was well behaved for a power hungry politician. He actually held a referendum, and was quite open about his desire to hold onto power. The worst he did was stick some populist stuff into the same “reform” package to try and sweeten the pill.

Dubya? trashed the constitution, international law, and basic human rights, with absolutely no input from the voting public. That ain’t democracy.

I think the most we can hope for is that the current financial mismanagement will send the US economy into depression swiftly enough to make people take notice and demand action, but not so swiftly that the necessary political action will come too late, and people will suffer more than they have to.

A good depression will certainly change american attitudes about government regulation of free markets, and a successfully executed “new new deal” will do much to restore confidence in the democratic process. Imagine a whole generation with a deep mistrust of corporate interests, and a belief in using a democratic government to regulate and shape markets so that they meet political and social needs.

The current attitudes can’t even get the Kyoto agreement signed. Nobody is remotely interested in anything that involves sacrifice now for reward later.

Is it safe for decent people in here yet? I mean, is all the sex & relationships stuff over?

Also, it’s Monday morning, so you working stiffs had better get to work so you can start producing, which is what enables you to consume.

gbear–understood. I avoided the suburbs until I moved back here, and I came right back to the same old area to find it being developed out the wazoo. Given my near-rage reaction to land developers, you can imagine a taste at least of my angst. No reason. None at all for all this new housing. Not on “new” land. Makes me sick. Even sicker when I’m in Florida.

My Grandparents are still the same way as you describe, old Depression-era everything must be new and pre-packaged for us. I guess that’s why my Mom’s such a liberal.

random–few are immune to the beck and call of those jackboots, sadly. I never thought I’d have to argue down people in a Women’s Studies class, but one woman wanted help getting porn banned. I think I stood up and spoke for ages to her enthralled listeners about how fast the religious right types would come down on the stuff that liberals/feminists were putting out if she (and her group) managed to set a precedent for censorship. Always happens, especially to those here who don’t understand how the legal system works. I’m no expert myself, but some things are just common sense.

“Chavez was well behaved for a power hungry politician. He actually held a referendum, and was quite open about his desire to hold onto power. The worst he did was stick some populist stuff into the same “reform” package to try and sweeten the pill.”

That’s a point, but Bush’s horrible presence can’t excuse Chavez’ behaviour. When the difference between two guys are more quantitative than qualitative, completely forgetting to go after one dude becuase of political bias just cheapens the standards you employ.

I hate/dislike Bush and Chavez, Ahmadinejad and Conrad Black, George Galloway and Michael Moore to different degrees depending on what they have done and what they say is “good” or “true”. There really is no reason to give preference to either.

The fact is, what you call fascism and jackboot is is just good old law and order, and it IS common sense. It is time to reign in the liberal extremists who threaten America’s interests and safety, you are the haters. We love America. Especially here in the heartland, we love her muchmore than you, which is why more of us are fighting for freedom in Iraq, while you hippies protest and destroy property. That doesn’t play well in Peoria.

Phony-baloney “liberals” (that is, leftists, Stalinists, moonbats) defining democracy is hugely entertaining, especially since they don’t know a thing about it. They also don’t like it when their fascistic cover is blown.

Steyn nails it. This Hillman is very much the fascist. Like the moonbats.

Anne Laurie said: Well, on the one hand, Gbear, you’ve got actual friends like Mikey who will help you survive while the Steyns are busy stealing each other’s last Cheetos.

Not quite Anne. Friends like Mikey will generously teach you beforehand how to survive. Once push comes to shove, he’s not going to let me tag along and learn on the job, so to speak. By that point, you simply cannot let anyone slow you down. I think Mikey would be the first to tell you this.

I suppose you’re going to sing the praises of Doughy Pantload’s book next, SteveIL? Or do you just enjoy attempting to pass off oxymorons as logical, coherent arguments?

On the contrary, I would argue that the differences between Bush and Chavez are qualitative. Chavez has tried to do something very different. Getting rid of term limits is probably not a good thing for a democracy, but it doesn’t automatically turn democracy into fascism. People still get to vote and decide on a government. Bush has actually attacked the structure of democracy directly, by stealing an election. If elections can be stolen, a democracy isn’t a democracy any more.

I don’t agree with Chavez’s attitude towards democracy, but he HAS respected the existing system, even if he wants to change it. Even if he wants to play at being Castro, he has done some good stuff too, and so far, the voters have decided he is worth keeping around.

Since he has stuck to the rules, he is merely a political opponent. He has stuck to his local rules, which are of a high enough standard for other democracies to respect.

International diplomacy just cannot work unless democratic governments respect each others mandate, even when they disagree.

Dubya on the other hand, as we well know, has done a lot of ILLEGAL stuff. illegal both by local standards, and international standards. That is where we draw the line between legitimate politician, and criminal despot.

It isn’t a matter of letting Chavez off the hook, It is a matter of offering him limited and conditional support, for the things he does that we like, whilst disagreeing with the things he does that we don’t like.

We have to treat every politician that stays within the boundaries of the law in this way. I mean, can you honestly say you are 100% thrilled with ANYONE in the political scene? The left wing are cheerfully ripping all of the Democratic candidates to shreds, whilst offering some of them conditional or grudging support. It is the same reaction Chavez is getting, except there is less buzz about it since it is happening further away.

I am not in favor of fascism, but admittedly it’s because I am very much aware of my position on the making-the-rules ladder. For pity’s sake, though, I’m not even authoritarian enough to much enjoy that I will be far less likely than Steve to freak out over having, in twenty or so years, to share under martial law a three room apartment on the new coast with eight other environmental refugees who don’t necessarily share a common language. Mostly, I just feel really bad for his future roommates.

gbear, there are books you can read that will help keep you from slowing mikey down. But it’s all a matter of seeing the crisis in advance. I, for example, am not learning dozens of third world languages or even how to effectively butcher pigeons, but by god if there turn out to be zombies in the coming apocalyptic scenario, I’m totally gonna be worth heading up to Seattle to meet up with. Some of us are going to have to specialize, people. mikey can’t do it all.

And a shorter me from above, Mr Insane (Do you mind if I call you Mr Insane?) is probably: Turns out the free market actually *is* a suicide pact. And even that’s a couple words more than it needs to be. I do not do shorter anything.

Um, I know how to maintain and operate most large (900 amp, 1200 amp) diesel-powered generators, as well as how to safely and efficiently distribute large amounts of alternating current.

Just sayin’

Phony-baloney “liberals” (that is, leftists, Stalinists, moonbats) defining democracy is hugely entertaining, especially since they don’t know a thing about it. They also don’t like it when their fascistic cover is blown.

The only way to REALLY know who is an undercover fascist is to ask them to repeat this phrase three times fast:

Four fresh fascisistic fish fleeced five fine flying fellows.

Stalinists can’t do it. Go on, SteveIL give it a try… or are you pinker than you let on?

Especially here in the heartland, we love her muchmore than you, which is why more of us are fighting for freedom in Iraq, while you hippies protest and destroy property. That doesn’t play well in Peoria.

Except that Gary is not in Iraq, either.

It’s not like this is stopping him anymore:

http://thumbsnap.com/v/DD4cql02.jpg

Gary’s just a coward.

if Gary were a REAL patriot, he’d lie about his age.

Why is it wingnuts always think that the definition of fascism is “When someone tells me something I don’t want to hear”?

“Why is it wingnuts always think that the definition of fascism is “When someone tells me something I don’t want to hear”?”

Because wingnuts tend to be petulant and self-entitled children with the emotional maturity of pubescent middle-schoolers?

Getting rid of term limits is probably not a good thing for a democracy, but it doesn’t automatically turn democracy into fascism.

Wikipedia says:

Australia
* Prime Minister – No term limits

Japan
* Prime Minister – No term limits

France
* President – unlimited five-year terms

Italy
* President – Unlimited seven-year terms

Portugal
* President – Two consecutive five-year terms
* Prime Minister – No term limits

United Kingdom
* Monarch – No term limits
* Prime Minister – No term limits, Parliament elected for maximum of 5 years.

Canada
* Prime Minister – No term limits

When did the ability to waste prodigiously become the marker for displaying wealth?

I’m pretty sure it was when people like Mark Steyn’s mother were a bit too effusive about their sons’ wondrous poo-poo in the potty.

Goodness knows, democracy will thrive LONG after humans have died off…

Random: “Imagine a whole generation with a deep mistrust of corporate interests, and a belief in using a democratic government to regulate and shape markets so that they meet political and social needs.”

Random, I’d love to see it; but that’s exactly what a lot of us were imagining in the late 60’s. I fear that, at the end of the day, money runs the show; and will until the day actually ends.

And a shorter me from above, Mr Insane (Do you mind if I call you Mr Insane?) is probably: Turns out the free market actually *is* a suicide pact. And even that’s a couple words more than it needs to be. I do not do shorter anything.

Hmm, I’ll have to think about it. Considering it’s perilously close to “Mr. Insane-o Cow Drink” which is apparently a cocktail… yes…. yes you may.

hehhehheh – I read that as “Mark Steyn and Jonah Goldberg are brilliant Communists.” Makes about as much sense as calling them brilliant Columnists. Andy why is columnists captalized, anyway?

Lately it seems like wingnuts are always capitalizing random nouns, almost as though they’re using some antiquated form of English.

The words Power and World Stage do not require capitalization.

I love that according to Wingnuts, Free Speech means having to sit and listen politely while one of their mouth-breathing Heros rambles on at a podium about god knows whatever topic. Yes, wingnuts, you have the right to be publicly pig-ignorant, but that doesn’t mean that the rest of us are required to give you the “respect” your sense of unearned entitlement demands.

What are you gonna do about it, cowards?

Totally OT, but this is madly funny.

Candy, I’ve noticed that too and can’t tell if what it means. It could be yet another sign that they snoozed all through school; greasy fingers on the keyboard or; some feeble attempt at subliminal messaging. Upper case C columnists must be more important than lower case c columnists, right?

Me, I’d like to think it is some sort of NeoCon neuroligical disorder that will get steadily worse until TheY sTART tO wriTE LIKe tHIS.

My dream bumper sticker:

“I went all the way to the Creation Museum and all I got was stupider.”

Arky, in some cases they are already writing like that, or in other ways that display neurological damage: Kaye Grogan comes right to mind! 🙂

Fozzetti’s Mama’s Spaggetti said,

December 17, 2007 at 19:40

Fuck off tsisageya.

Conservatives are the ones who care about free-speech.

I beg to differ, sir.

Conservatives are the ones who care about free-speech.

Conservatives believe that free-speech devalues the Sacred Marketplace of Ideas. In their narrow little world, anyone who *deserves* to be heard should be able to buy as much of an audience as they can afford! Because, hey, if poor people had any good ideas, they wouldn’t be poor, and if ideas are good enough to be marketable, then some wealthy scion of the Sacred Marketplace would pay for their distribution. Look how well this system has worked for Mark Steyn, after all!

If You Want A Picture Of The Future, Imagine A Canadian Human Rights Commission Stomping On Free Speech/Free Press — Forever. _________________________________________________________

“Maclean’s said it stands behind the writer of the article, Mark Steyn, and it is confident the human rights commissions will find no merit in the complaint.

Faisal Joseph, a lawyer from the Canadian Islamic Congress who is representing the four students, argued that journalists can’t write just anything.”

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/media/story/2007/12/05/muslim-macleans.html

Candy–no shit. I thought a little bit of Kansas had moved for a moment.

Legalize–Do it!! Put it on CafePress or something. I’ll buy.

asswipe whose name I forgot–I’m an old punk, not a fucking hippie, but I just started a blog with a Muslim so shove that up Steyn-loving ass. I’m also registered as a Republican, like many here who want to influence the election. This will be a great FSU OP, I’ve never been registered with a party before. Hehhehhehe. (Only way to vote against Huckmitt)