Completely bizarre.
Holy gods. I agree with Ace about something:
What are we going to do with Dr. Helen? She’s refreshingly — bracingly, actually — pro-male but sometimes her impulses get the better of her.
Like this link — the “Instapundit link of silent approval” she learned from her husband — to a whining “Recovering Nice Guy” who mewls that all those women he befriended and never actually asked out didn’t fall in love with a gutless pussy.
As semi-recovering pussy myself, I have some sympathy for my fellow pussies who can never seem to nut up enough to actually take the bold step of clearly and plainly announcing their romantic designs on a woman (wow, what a concept), but not so much sympathy that I can condone this destructive behavior or encourage self-styled “Nice Guys” to keep up with their pussy behavior.
You’re — we’re — not “Nice Guys.” You/we want exactly what the “Not Nice Guys” want from women, which is to say Sex, Companionship, Sex, Romance, Sex and Sex in that order. You/we are just too a-scared to say so. Which isn’t Nice. It’s just cowardly.
I agree, but with a caveat.
Dude, women are cool to hang out with even if they don’t want to sleep with you. There are times in your life when you feel lonely and down and when sex isn’t all that important- sometimes you just need a pal. That pal can come in the form of a woman or in the form of a fellow dude. What matters isn’t that you find them physically attractive, but that they’re a decent person who can help you get through rough times. This, to me, is why the Craig’s List pussy wimp* is such a sad case- because he doesn’t understand that having a friend is actually more important and valuable than the “physical intimacy” (a.k.a., “ZOMG SHE H4Z 4W3$0M3 KN0Ck3RZ!!111!!”) he wants his female friends to give him. Life can be very tough and depressing at times, amigos. Don’t turn someone away just because they won’t have sex with you. Jeebus H, this should be bloody obvious.
*Sorry, kids, poor original word choice on my part.
“…times in your life when you feel lonely and down and when sex isn’t all that important- sometimes you just need a pal.”
On 9/11, my friend (and lover at the time) held me whilst I looked into the television and cried, “they tore a hole in my hometwn!” Then the call came in from Manhattan, confirming that everyone I knew had escaped the destruction. She was great in bed, but that was the last thing on my mind that night. She was there for me, and we’re friends still, long after the end of our affair.
Playdoh and bacon loser gives advice to the lovelorn…precious.
Although he lists sex numerous times on his list of wants [to remind his flock that his priority is sex sex sex], it turns out that many men just want a cuddles.
Uh, is this gonna be on the final?
And once the friendship is good and solid, then you nail her, right?
Maybe if we can just get the all wingnuts and trolls laid, just one time, we can recover teh internets for civilization and sanity.
Easier said than done, yeah.
Oh Ace. The many facets.
Bradrocket is exactly right. You stay friends with the ones you don’t wanna bang in case they have any cute friends.
Pussy Derangement Syndrome — It’s slated for inclusion in the next edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Nervous Disorders.
Can we stop with the sexual dysfunction threads? It’s really not funny and just bringing out the hidden asshole in a lot of people I used to have more respect for. K? Thanks.
And yeah, I know this is just gonna open up another ‘fat suit’ line of comments, and fine. Just that everyone has a sore spot, and you’ve been hitting one of mine with a hammer for the better part of a day.
Gotta agree with NobodySpecial here somewhat; having a vagina doesn’t automatically make you an angel either… Yes women are soft and warm and yummy, yes they can be as intelligent or as worthwhile as men in any criteria that matters, or any that they personally choose to believe matters even if you don’t agree with their choices… Of course they have that potential and right too. But that in turn means that they can be as evil, materialistic and selfish as men if they so choose; And just because the nasty stunted homonuclii of the Right are obsessing about that freedom to be evil, doesn’t mean that there aren’t a considerable number of women who, either consciously or unconsciously have taken some of the life-paths they are whinging about. Being bitter doesn’t necessarily mean being absolutely wrong; just as being free, and being female doesn’t make every potential path through life any more morally or logically acceptable; if women are free to be something deeper than (as Henry Rollins put it) these perfect beings that poop talcum powder, they are no less free to have the fact that their shit sometimes stinks pointed out too.
Thus, when you say something like “What matters isn’t that you find them physically attractive, but that they’re a decent person who can help you get through rough times.” it makes it sound like that any man who has run into a woman who couldn’t be his friend, or who, when opened up and his heart strings were laid bear, so them just coldly cut right through, was somehow himself morally or emotionally culpable for that behaviour in the female other. But that’s not the case at all. So sometimes yes, even the stunted men on the right can still be too decent and honest for the circumstances they find themselves in… be they assholes or not, because every gender has an asshole, remember?
Of course, there’s sometimes another reason why some men just don’t feel right when asking women out.
Perhaps the next time Ace is searching Conservapedia for “homosexuality and religion”, “homosexuality and disease” or “gay bowel syndrome”, he could think about that.
I say this purely in the interest of helping Ace and his wingnut brethren to become happier, more self-aware people.
I dare say, Kevin Bacon Holding A Short Roll Of Playdoh could be a star on crap e-mail from a dude.
Also, to refer to the a-spicy meatball that is the previous thread, I notice with all the “Asian women” comments that there’s a subtext that it’s specifically American women who are evil whore bitches, and a certain yearning for those heathen countries where the chicks knonw their place. Of course, American women are probably the limits of knowledge of the average non-passport-owning wingnut; if you talked to them about it I bet you’d find that they can even narrow it down to their specific locale, ie “Man, all Californian women are bitches/all Texan women are bitches” etc. etc.
So, now we can add “attractive American women” to the list of subclasses of Americans that are hated by those self-professed America-lovers on the right (do you suppose the unspoken wingnut mantra of “I love America but hate 75% of Americans” is supposed to be like “hate the sin but love the sinner”?). The DO NOT HATE column on that particular graph is getting very short, it seems.
warning! Once you start explaining the blindingly obvious to a winger you have taken on a task that may never actually end….
I think it’s urgent to spend more time focusing on the relationship perspectives of bat sh*t crazy right wingers, because I am sure the payoff in terms of their heightened cultural awareness and drastic political renovation will be great.
My favorite line is the first one. What are we going to do with Dr. Helen? Nope, no patriarchal entitlement there.
Yes women are soft and warm and yummy, yes they can be as intelligent or as worthwhile as men in any criteria that matters…
Why, thank you.
…or any that they personally choose to believe matters even if you don’t agree with their choices… Of course they have that potential and right too. But that in turn means that they can be as evil, materialistic and selfish as men if they so choose
Oh. In other words, women are, what do you call it, human beings?
Maybe we should teach simple,basic social skills at school,along with math and science and reading and the like. A good kindergarten tries to instill these skills in children,but I think this culture has come to a place where that teaching gets smothered by the time a kid is in middle school. Perhaps a refresher course in middle and then high school (adjusted for age) would help,a little? Hell,I have no idea. My son is 13 and I’m completely lost in how to guide him away from being a neanderthal with all the charm of a dead squirrel. It’s like there’s a gold standard of asshole-ishness people are working towards these days,fuck compassion,empathy and dignity. And integrity? Ha,not so much. As a mom,I find it horribly depressing.
Something I’ve never quite understood is men who are totally hetero(allegedly)who not only loathe women but completely disregard them as being good for anything beyond sex and maid service. It makes no sense. If you are attracted to women and want relationships with them,why on earth would you not then value them as human beings? It’s not a requirement that you go out of your way to be an asshole,even if you do want”just”sex. Also,if you’re a guy,wanting to spend most of your time in the company of other men doesn’t seem all that hetero to me,but hey,what do I know? I’m just a girl.
Oh,and could it be that some of these guys have rather warped ideals of attractiveness based on the porn star standard?
I used to work with a younger guy who would only date blonde women who were under 5 ft 5 in and under 115 lbs with obviously large boobies. I swear,that was his criteria,period. What a way to insure your own failure at relationships before you even get started(at the time I think the guy was maybe 21). Life’s too short for such idiotic limitations.
Can we stop with the sexual dysfunction threads? It’s really not funny and just bringing out the hidden asshole in a lot of people I used to have more respect for.
I second that.
Also, it’s seriously pissing me off that for many men the characterization of “pussy” has become the worst possible pejorative around.
OK, OK I’ll stop with the sexual dysfunction threads. The comment threads at Dr. Mrs. Ole Perfesser’s place really are addictive, though. And yes, I do think they’re incredibly funny.
I mean FOR INSTANCE this is something that Dr. Mrs. Ole Perfesser wrote HERSELF in the comments:
WTF???? That’s considered valuable advice????
O/T, but may be fun:
A giant anti-science theme park can continue the success of the Northwest of England’s brand. The official agency promoting Northwest England points out these resources which may be further envalued by 3D talking snakes and paradise-ruining nosy womanfolk:
Anyway:
Speaking of which, where’s GitmoWorld, where right wingers might be offered a modern, secular version of this fun?
Youth!!! Give up your so-called ‘modern culture’ and your ‘binge drinking’!!! Today you have an alternative: Crazy people bringing wacky tribal myths to life!
Thankfully, these aren’t your father’s paranoid right wing religious maniacs. These proud anti-modernists are more than willing to beg for handouts from that fine bastion of supranational governance, the E.U.:
Unfortunately, it seems the locals have been insufficiently godly and have become lax, what with all their crazy Baal worshipping and golden calves and whatnot.
You see, the crazy secularist Wigans (and half of you were no doubt thinking Wiccans, right) must have thought that it was enough to simulate life 100 years ago, rather than at the Earf’s creation like 6,000 or somethin’ years ago.
But don’t think that the American right winger who raves about the biggest threat to all human civilization, also called Tha Teachers’ Unionz, don’t have something to enjoy:
I shiver in anticipation of the sweet discipline one might receive.
But maybe the Wigan council was hasty. After all, the two themes could have been combined. The famed working class destination of that evil socialist pro-thinkerist George Orwell could have shown how all that coal which provided sumptuous livings for those greedy miners was actually formed in Noah’s flood any way.
A better case can hardly be made for secular / nutbag synergy.
Dear Lord,
From here on out, unless it’s Twisty Faster who uses it, please smite, by way of instantaneous spontaneous combustion, ANY ONE who uses the word PUSSY. Especially if it’s used to indicate a “weak” or “ineffectual” human being.
Smite—you know, like White Buffalo Calf Woman does to the bad scout.
Oh, and Lord, thank you for smiting the Smirking Chimp. They were getting on my last nerve. Also, the Rude Pundit—thank you for smiting.
Also, Lord, have I ever told you how much I love Robert Jensen, Chellis Glendinning, Jerry Mander, Vandana Shiva, Bill Moyers, and a host of many others? Thank you.
Well, that’s how Insty nailed her.
The best way to get laid is to fake confidence and don’t listen too much.
Wow. The s3x at their pad must be teh h0tt!!!!
Also, it’s seriously pissing me off that for many men the characterization of “pussy” has become the worst possible pejorative around.
Unfortunately, pointing out that using women’s genitals as a euphemism for weakness and cowardice is something that perhaps intelligent guys should try to move past doesn’t seem to go over well, even among liberals. God fucking forbid they should have to adjust attitudes and figures of speech they picked up in fifth grade.
Yes, let’s stop using “pussy” to mean gutless wimp. It’s insulting to millions of Feline-Americans.
You’re — we’re — not “Nice Guys.” You/we want exactly what the “Not Nice Guys” want from women, which is to say Sex, Companionship, Sex, Romance, Sex and Sex in that order. You/we are just too a-scared to say so. Which isn’t Nice. It’s just cowardly.
What a load of horseshit.
By this logic, then every woman I’ve ever met, including the ones I’ve not slept with, are targets of my predation.
Eh eh, asshole!
Ace, you’re a guy which means you’ve never learned how to keep your pecker in your pants or your mouth from drooling when you breathe.
Me, I’m a man. I don’t need to think every woman wants to sleep with me, or that I need to judge every woman based on whether I want to sleep with them.
And THAT’S why you’re a Neaderthal and I’m a human being, dickless.
I’ve quit enjoyed these past three threads… unfortunately, I’m fairly certain this isn’t just a wingnut phenomenon.
And I was dissapointed in Kevin Bacon Holding a Short Roll of Playdoh, because it’s such a cool name.
Thus, when you say something like “What matters isn’t that you find them physically attractive, but that they’re a decent person who can help you get through rough times.” it makes it sound like that any man who has run into a woman who couldn’t be his friend […] was somehow himself morally or emotionally culpable for that behaviour in the female other…
Um, what?
Lord,
Smite also those who use the word “nailed” for sticking their dick into a woman’s private parts—or any other orifice, for that matter. We all know how men, in general, like to stick their dicks into any ole motherfucking hole—animate, or inanimate.
Smite away.
And I say smite those who can’t discern context.
Yes, “nailed” is perfectly applicable when Dr. Helen implies that an air of confidence (“hehindeed”) and not listening (“keep talking while I clean this here gun barrel. I’m listening. doo-de-doo.”) is what can get a man laid (with her).
Also for the Lord’s smiting list: those who use the words “hit” (as in, “I’d hit it”) and “bang” in addition to “nail” (are we seeing a pattern here?) for sticking their dick into a woman’s private parts.
You volunteering?
Two subtextes actually.
1. There is certain type of guy, that we’ll call a Prick, who believes all people who aren’t Caucasian Protestants are sex maniacs. African-American, Latina, Asian, Jewish, Catholic, Russian, you name it, if it doesn’t look like his parents and worship at his parent’s church it must be a huge freak. Of course, this isn’t true but Prick is convinced that just last year he could get some by giving anyone from the above groups a wink. In reality he’d be fine with being “friends” with his CP female companions if he could just get some somewhere but the non-CP ladies aren’t behaving like TV, old books, dad’s drunk friends promised.
2. Besides all that bullshit, Prick carries an additional load of racism that causes him to be very selective in where he’d even suggest getting a wife. Asian women (remember, Prick thinks they all look like the critters in anime) meet the criteria of “whiteness” and supposed subservience.
Angry old broad –
hang in there with the 13-yr-old. When my son was a teenager, I was sure he was going to end up either homeless or in jail. He turned out fine once he got past adolescence. Your former co-worker was right on the cusp of finding out that being an asshole is no foundation for a satisfying relationship. And no pity for him if he didn’t.
I’d like to second Actor21’s thoughts. I’ve questioned Bradrocket’s sexuality for several months now and he most certainly is a guy. Real men, you see, are more evolved. They understand that everyone is, at heart, a person, just like them. Well, not exactly just like them, because men are BETTER. Because real men, you see, have learned the Big Lesson in Life. Which is that women are just like MEN — unless they’re GALS. Because gals are shallow bitches. But women — REAL women — they are the ones who will apreciate a REAL MAN. And real men know that there is more to life than just the next lay. That’s why real men tend to get laid so much more often, often by real women, who also realize that sex is of secondary importance. And realizing the sex is not important, they are paradoxically MORE FREE to have SEX. But not cheap meaningless sex, but real relationships in which sex is just a small part of the entire relationship. And real men realize that, hey, sometimes things don’t work out, so sometimes REAL men have to find REAL women who are interested in having a deep relationship with them by going to bars. There’s nothing wrong with that. There is absolutely nothiing wrong with respecting a woman for being attractive. Only guys, who are hung up on sex and appearances, think there’s anything wrong with it because they feel guilty that they are objectifying women instead of appreciating them for who they really are. There’s also nothing wrong with having sex FIRST, because, really, sex isn’t that important. Real men don’t let sex get in the way of a relationship. They’re not afraid to fuck someone and then find out, well, you know, she’s not “the one,” after all. Sometimes real men, because they are so interested in a real, caring relationship with real women, have to fuck a lot of women. It’s part of the burden of being a real man.
So, to sum up, REAL men have lots of sex with REAL women, while GUYS probably have GALS for friends and probably have lots of meaningful long-term relationships.
And real men treat EVERYONE with respect and don’t make stupid artifical distinctions among people based upon lame self-rationalizations. Got that, Brad, you fucking pussy?
I’m going to go pop some corn and pull up a chair. Be right back.
I hope you’re right about the 13 yr old Rugosa,right now I just wanna throttle the kid. He turned 13 and lost his fucking mind.
More sexual dysfunction threads, please. Sunlight, disinfectant (one can only hope), unintended consequences, popcorn, and all that.
Unfortunately, pointing out that using women’s genitals as a euphemism for weakness and cowardice is something that perhaps intelligent guys should try to move past doesn’t seem to go over well, even among liberals. God fucking forbid they should have to adjust attitudes and figures of speech they picked up in fifth grade.
I dedicate this delicious cup of coffee to you, Emperor U.S.A.
Wingnuts who can’t laid is not a sexual dysfunction. It’s natural selection.
Ace of Spades:
Somewhat concerning verbiage there.
My favorite line is the first one. What are we going to do with Dr. Helen? Nope, no patriarchal entitlement there.
The sad thing is, Dr. Helen probably would tell you that you’re overly sensitive, and Ace is just being a good strong man by asking the perfectly valid question. Because that’s how she rolls.
More sexual dysfunction threads, please. Sunlight, disinfectant (one can only hope), unintended consequences, popcorn, and all that.
Indeed.
Also, once more, with feeling: “pussy” is not an insult. Indeed, all of my experiences with pussies have been on the positive-to-extremely positive part of the spectrum of experience. They’re quite nice, and they’re often attached to interesting people, which is even better.
And calling this maroon a “pussy” to insinuate he’s too womanly…that’s insane. The average woman is, in all facets of humanity, far stronger than him. The average man, too.
And real men realize that, hey, sometimes things don’t work out, so sometimes REAL men have to find REAL women who are interested in having a deep relationship with them by going to bars. There’s nothing wrong with that. There is absolutely nothiing wrong with respecting a woman for being attractive. Only guys, who are hung up on sex and appearances, think there’s anything wrong with it because they feel guilty that they are objectifying women instead of appreciating them for who they really are. There’s also nothing wrong with having sex FIRST, because, really, sex isn’t that important. Real men don’t let sex get in the way of a relationship.
Uh. How is this any different at all from what I wrote here:
here are times in your life when you feel lonely and down and when sex isn’t all that important- sometimes you just need a pal. That pal can come in the form of a woman or in the form of a fellow dude. What matters isn’t that you find them physically attractive, but that they’re a decent person who can help you get through rough times.
That’s literally what I said, dude- that people should be valued as friends and companions REGARDLESS of whether you have sex with them.
And yes, I shouldn’t have use teh p-word as a negative, and I apologize for it.
Kevin Bacon-
If you want to make a point about women & men maybe you shouldn’t quote notoriously misogynistic assholes like Henry Rollins.
And the way relationships have worked for me is I look for friends, of either sex. Some friends are women. When I’ve been lucky those women friends turned into sexual partners.
If you don’t have a good relationship before the sex you probably won’t have one after either; esp. if sex is all you have in common. My wife is my best friend. That is not a cliche. If for some reason I could never have sex with her again she would still be my best friend.
We all run into assholes in our life. These are not men assholes or women assholes, just assholes. Learn how to spot them faster & cut them out of your life. If you are a man & a woman isn’t treating you the way you want go out and find one who will. Don’t sit around whining about how you are doing everything right but she still won’t put out. Life is short. Stop trying to make people love you for what you are not. It’s hard work but there are plenty of women who will like nerdy, shy, geeky fanboy types. I managed a large comic book store in NYC. I saw nerdy women everyday. I mean adults that talk about nothing but the cartoon Lazer Tag.
Now go out there, do a little self evaluation and learn to like people more. Anger is not an aphrodisiac.
…help you get through rough times.
They’re pretty damned great for getting through the not-rough times too.
“pussy” is not an insult. Indeed, all of my experiences with pussies have been on the positive-to-extremely positive part of the spectrum of experience. They’re quite nice, and they’re often attached to interesting people, which is even better.
And the thing is, Jeff Fecke, you seem to not realize how condescending and sexist this very statement is. Unless you’re being meta-sarcastic, in which case, you’re not very good at it.
And calling this maroon a “pussy” to insinuate he’s too womanly…that’s insane. The average woman is, in all facets of humanity, far stronger than him. The average man, too.
Again with the extreme sarcasm! Uh—right?
At the risk of enraging many, I’ve always found that a simple, honest “Wanna fuck?” works wonders. Maybe I’m just an old romantic.
People are strange
I’m with Lesley. When the willfully ignorant and nastily clueless join forces, we all lose.
The whole thing is that woman are people, with the same exact range of variation in what they want, what they find attractive and what they are looking for in a mate – if indeed they are looking for a mate at all.
So, anytime anyone writes anything talking about ‘women’ as a group, it is automatically wrong. It’s wrong because it is over-general to the point of idiocy. Like saying that everybody’s favorite color is blue because, on average, there is a slight preference for that color among a large sample of people.
The key is to treat each woman If she as you would treat any human being – as an individual. It’s so absurdly simple, that I am suprised that Brad simply cannot accept it — and that he would find agreeing with Play-doh and Bacon Boy more palatable than trying it out.
Oy.
really, sex isn’t that important. Real men don’t let sex get in the way of a relationship.
Ermm ….my wife would vehemently disagree.
Brad —
Man, nobody ever gets my snark. I try to make it as obvious as I possible can and try to pile as many contradictions as close together as humanly possible and even arrived at a conclusion that was exactly the opposite of what actor21 meant.
Feel free to workshop my snark. It obviously needs a lot of help.
No offense meant, Brad.
The key is to treat each woman If she as you would treat any human being – as an individual. It’s so absurdly simple, that I am suprised that Brad simply cannot accept it — and that he would find agreeing with Play-doh and Bacon Boy more palatable than trying it out.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, WTF. I think I’ve severely miscommunicated myself here. Because treating people as individuals is pretty much the point I was trying to make. I.e., that having a friend, whether male or female, is more important than the next lay. WTF did I do wrong here?
Teh sex is very important.
Um, what?
Ok, I’ll dumb it down a notch for you; These threads are laughing at Wingnuts because, ha ha ha, they are such awful people, it’s no wonder they have such dysfunctional sex lives! Well, to a certain extent, yes… No question they have ugly, ugly attitudes, and yes often like attracts like, and all that. But that doesn’t mean they are entirely wrong about human nature; As McNicky put it, but some of you seem to be unable to grasp the true meaning of what it implies, “Oh. In other words, women are, what do you call it, human beings?” Which means, like the other half human race that they are truly equal too, women make mistakes, and can be cruel or just insensitive, especially where the heart or the libido or social pressures are concerned. Thus a good number of women do go for complete bastards, or act like it themselves, independently of the worth of the other males in their lives. It’s a correlation, not a causation that the prats over at Insty et all are meeting such horrible people… but in making teh lulz out of it as if it were a causation, you are basically also hitting people like NobodySpecial, who may have run into some of these evil “Human beings” themselves; and further more, intimating that he/she deserved it too, what ever it was that they experienced in the past.
Which, if they don’t mind me speaking for them, is probably why they mention the “Fat Suit” episode from earlier… a lot of decent, caring liberal people got offended in turn by that, because they also happened to be overweight, yet it was intimated that being fat was causally linked with wingnuttery and being an asshole.
Any clearer now?
Thanks, Brad.
Well said, Doodle Bean.
iinkadu- ah, OK. It was pretty good performance art, I’m not gonna lie.
DoodleBean- I should have been more specific about what I agreed with Ace about (i.e., the whiny “nice guy” really isn’t a nice guy at all). I certainly DON’T agree with Ace that “You/we want exactly what the “Not Nice Guys” want from women, which is to say Sex, Companionship, Sex, Romance, Sex and Sex in that order.” Hence the caveat I threw in at the end.
And calling this maroon
And to illustrate how far this language game can be played, Jeff Fecke has just outted himself as a maroonist, and therefore a racist.
As I learned in a Pandagon thread a while back, a ‘maroon’ was a pejorative slang name for a runaway slave in Latin America.
So you learned the word from Bugs Bunny cartoons? Well, too bad. Actually, it just shows you hate people of color. Jeff, we don’t need your hate crimes here. HATE CRIME!! Why don’t you go read some Twisty Faster and educate yourself about TOLERANCE?
…As McNicky put it, but some of you seem to be unable to grasp the true meaning of what it implies, “Oh. In other words, women are, what do you call it, human beings?” Which means, like the other half human race that they are truly equal too…
Kevin Bacon: I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here, but you seem to have completely missed my point.
HTML: Twisty seems to have gone off the air. She can’t hurt you anymore.
Just so I don’t misstep, could someone please provide a list of acceptable words I can use to insult wingnuts in matters of sexuality?
Doodle Bean
I think there’s a few things going on here.
1a. Men and women are DIFFERENT as populations. Look at how kids play and interact. Boys interact differently than girls. They play different games. I used to think this was all socialization, but then I tried to “socialize” a girl in a day care center to be less of a passive princess. It was completely an impossible task. A lot of behavior is genetically programmed.
1b. Some stuff is socially programmed. Women are just as good as men at math, unless they’re are in a room with men, in which case they suddenly start conforming to social expectations and raise their hands less, etc.
1c. What does this tell you about an individual person? Absolutely nothing.
2. This one is really more relevant to this conversation: Sex is a huge underlying dynamic, whether you want to admit it or not. Men have different relationships with men than they do with women, and that’s because there’s the chance of sex involved, and not only sex, but a whole genetically pre-programmed relationship of courtship, sex, children, etc. You can’t just wave your magic wand and say that doesn’t exist. If it didn’t, we’d all be 50/50 bisexuals with no sexual preference. But we’re not, so each of us, as we grow up, has to learn to deal with sexual dynamic in a relationship.
And not like same-sex relationships are free of problem dynamics. I’m a bit insecure about my masculinity sometimes (nerd patrol), so I get nervous around some men sometimes. But the men I’m nervous around are equally insecure about their masculinity, so they like to accuse people of being homos and what not…
Anyway. Long story short: It’s complicated, people. At least for some of us. If it’s not for you, then congratulations.
Kevin Bacon Holding a Short Roll of PlayDoh:
I’m still not getting it. Maybe you could try using fewer words instead of more?
The only thing I understand enough to definitively disagree with is when you say it sounds like Brad (or whoever) is blaming something for something. I have no idea what. But I don’t see any victim blaming anywhere in any of these posts..
Oh! Wait! You mean if a guy gets treated like shit by a girl, it’s his fault for being “nice”? Is that what you’re getting from soemthing someone wrote somewhere? If it is, I think it’s complete bollox. First, we’re discussing a “nice guy” phenomenon which is established by the nice guy himself repeatedly over several past-life regressions indicating that women are heartless using bitches. We’re not discussing somebody who went out with someone for 2 weeks who turned out to be a sociopath. Second, yes, you have a responsibility for whom you date. You have a responsibility to select, evaluate, and develop a relationship. But nobody marries their first date, so it’s understood that it’s a process of learning. Do you have a problem with that?
Bradrocket:
Recovering nice guy wants to have, like, ten thousand of your babies!
Brad, you’re apologizing to someone who thinks the Dems’ SCHIP commercial was racist, for God’s sake.
She can’t hurt you anymore.
Now who’s feminizing whom?
angryoldbroad: Most if not all 13-year-olds are insane. I also despaired as to what would become of The Boy when he was that age. Actually, The Girl was a zillion times worse, but anyway. Try not to kill your child. For one thing, you’d probably have to go to prison. But also, if you let them live, they do turn back into human beings sometime around age 19 or 20, and you’ll probably find that it was sort of worth it, plus then they usually move out.
If you want to make a point about women & men maybe you shouldn’t quote notoriously misogynistic assholes like Henry Rollins.
Ahh, I see whilst I was putting up my reply, someone else falls into the same trap I was explaining; Yes Rollins can be an asshole… but is he wrong on that particular claim? You know, try to evaluate every person and action on the worth of themselves as an individual, and their individual claims, rather than as just some big assumption that everything about X is X? And Rollins used that line when talking about how he had to learn the hard way that women weren’t these abstract, sweet but weak things he idolized them as being as a stupid kid; in fact he later goes on to explain he thinks women are much, much stronger than men, and jokes about how they put up with disappointments and pain in life men would just curl up in a ball and cry about if they had to go through. Like childbirth. And not getting to cum every time.
I’ll find the particular album he gives that talk on, if you’d like to actually open your ears and listen instead of just keep making assumptions about what people, or just that particular person was saying. But assumptions are always much easier; And the assumption some people feel the jokes here today are making is that a good, liberal, respectful-in-the-right-way Man will never, ever experience anything which leads him to feel disrespectful towards women like the Wingnuts do… As if women were always responsive entities that revolved purely around how we used our mouths and dicks, rather than autonomous entities of their own. Of course, flip the argument around and try telling a woman that if she just had better attitude towards men, she’d never meet any men who would hurt or try to hurt her, and you’d be rightfully considered an incredibly insensitive asshole… especially if she’d suffered unwanted violence in the past. Which 1 in 3 apparently have, but we all, irregardless of gender get reamed, irrespective of our worth or attitudes, in this life. It’s a shitty world indeed… on both sides equally of the gender divide. So truly accept the sexes can be equal, eh lads? And accept that for some men too, joking about how “ha ha ha, you must just suck if women treat you like that” is going to sound far more like the exact same childish idiocy that says women poop talcum powder, or worse, that “You shouldn’t have worn that skirt if you didn’t want…”
And no, as I keep having to add this as people have such a hard time with nuance, no amount of personal pain justifies the kind of attitudes expressed from our dear damaged chums on the right to women in general… What would have made it a lulz-worthy subject would be something specific to their own personal failings, like let’s say Ace on a blind date;
Real Live Woman: Hi there, Instapundit linked to you as a potential blind date without actually saying anything about you, but i guess he approves. So now I’ve given you a click, tell me about yourself…?
Ace Of Spades: Well, first of all, I shall be honest. I like your sand-filled bags of skin…
Real Live Woman: My what…?!
Ace Of Spades: Your tits. As you share the same chromosonal nature of all the bag-carriers I’ve felt before, yours are bound to also feel like they are full of sand, which I would like to indugle in feeling again. Just being honest, and that’s how women really like to be spoken too, I know. Your tits. I want to feel your tits.
Real Live Woman: Hold on, I came here expecting a bit of quality! Surely Instapundit wouldn’t link to just any old moron!
Ace Of Spades: Don’t worry, I don’t want to get into your knickers, you can trust me. I don’t really like bacon and playdoh.
Real Live Woman: Ok, this really isn’t working out for me… *gets up to leave*
Ace Of Spades: I also believe in cutting taxes no matter what.
Real Live Woman: *sits back down* Actually, I am a Republican voter, so suddenly you look appealing again!
Ace Of Spades: Want to stroke my gun? If more men waved theirs around, our shopping malls would be much, much safer you know…
yawn….
blogs arent going to cure misogyny, however slight or severe the case
500lb bomb dropped on a house doesnt discriminate etc
new thread please….
Now who’s feminizing whom?
Huh?
As I learned in a Pandagon thread a while back, a ‘maroon’ was a pejorative slang name for a runaway slave in Latin America.
If that’s how it was put, whoever wrote it didn’t get it exactly right. The English term “maroon,” like the French term marron, derives from the Spanish term cimarrón. This last word was first used in the New World to describe domesticated cattle and pigs that had run off to the hills and forests of Spain’s earliest Caribbean colonies. It was then used to refer to enslaved Indians who escaped captivity, and then increasingly, with the collapse of the native Caribbean population and the advent of the Atlantic slave trade, to Africans. This original usage certainly was nasty, as it implied that these successful escapees were wild, untamable, and fierce. The English and French terms referred strictly to people who escaped slavery, and while members of modern-day maroon communities and those who study them and maroon history are certainly aware of the terms’ etymology, their contemporary usage is not pejorative. That’s how the Maroons of Jamaica refer to themselves, for example.
this is really whats wrong with feminism, for the most part. They think every complaint they have about men and society is valid, but that men can not possibly have any valid complaints about the way they act or about society in general. Feminists believe a lower income male has no right to complain about women using income to decide on a mate, but they believe an unnatrictive woman has a perfectly valid complaint about men using physical beauty as a metric for the same. Feminists don’t believe that a shy or meek male has a legitimate complain in that women often go for more outgoing men, even if those more outgoing males are complete dicks. Yet, they can’t fathom why so many of us are complete dicks.
for instanc,e this guy is a jack ass. That doesn’t actually refute the thousands of other people who commonly complain about the same thing. How is that any different than when those that will not be named used Biting Beaver’s remarks to ‘prove’ that all of feminism was a man-hating enterprise all about poisoning the next generation of males. These aren’t actually arguments, and they won’t really change anyones mind. All they will do is convince women that they never have to listen to the opinions of men, and teach men that they never have to care about the opinions of women.
IT just very often seems than feminists only want to have a discussion on gender when they get to dictate the terms of that discussion, every issue that will be discussed.
The Maroons of Jamaica are responsible for the best barbecue in the world. What is mostly called ‘jerk’ is a style they developed and in its original style it is astoundingly good. A rub that includes dimensions of spice (cinnamon bark, root, leaves and dried flowers, just fr’instance) and searing levels of Scotch Bonnet peppers spread on pork sides which are then slow pit cooked over allspice wood.
To me Maroon is a word of high praise. Their capacity for white over-proof rum is also worthy of respect.
Soullite: Call for you on the clue phone:
http://heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml?necessary_repost
You know, I think the world would be a much better place if more shits like this were afraid of “girls.” But not the fear of rejection, the fear of getting their ass handed to them on a platter. Imagine the following conversation in a bar:
Insecure Rightwing Prick: So enough about me little lady. What about you? I bet you like to shop and stuff.
Repulsed female: Actually, I’m too busy working on getting my brown belt in Ju-jitsu for much shopping these days.
IRP: Haw, haw. You are not. Come on, you like Lifetime channel n’ gettin’ your nails done an’ stuff.
RF: Well, I do, see, there’s this new color called Peach Blossom. But I also enjoy ju-jitsu. Would you like to sit down?
IRP: Uh, no…gotta go.
[Scurries back to safety of mom’s basement and fires up computer]
“Man, what’s with all the ball busting feminazi’s out there??”
After a few such encounters the IRP will be physically afraid of women, avoid them completely, not breed and the rest of the human race can get on with evolving.
In all fairness I should say that if you regularly have romantic/sexual relationships with guys a little warning at the outset does wonders. No matter where you look on the Kinsey scale there are dicks who think having a cock gives them the right to be pricks.
Some people here really need to understand that, when talking about sociological issues, generalizations are not only ‘not bad’ but completely and utterly required. We’re not talking about a study of John or Jane down the road, we’re talking about the stufy of Men and women as sociological groups.
If the best argument someone has is ‘don’t generalize’, then they don’t actually belong in discussion that is, at it’s heart, about sociology. You can’t have the science at all until you’re willing to acknolwedge that no matter what kind of beautiful individuals people may be, as groups they tend to exhibit certain patterns of behavior.
Ink, because everyone who disagrees with you must be doing it do to their own personal issues, amirite?
Contrary to popular belief, the word pussy, meaning cowardly or craven, is NOT from the euphemism for the female sex organ. It is a shortening of :”pusillanimous” a word that means craven or cowardly. From the latin pusilius or small boy and animus or spirit. So pussy means having little boy nuts, not a vagina. See? Use the word as intended and correct those who misunderstand.
Huh?
Let me elaborate. You were using the tired trope that goes something like this:
“Instead of admitting that Liberal Dudes have a legitimate point about the batshit insane brand of Twisty Faster feminism, we’ll call them pathetic little whiners and snivellers and just generally speak about them in the same way that wingnuts talk about John Edwwards.”
bob, It’s kind of ironic that women think it’s perfectly acceptable to associate the words ‘dick’ and ‘prick’ with negative behaviors, but get the vapors when words for their own genitalia are used as negative terms.
To me Maroon is a word of high praise.
My point was that Jeff Fecke is a perfectly decent human being, just like Brad, and these language-game gotchas can be used — and are used, because it’s a cheap aside-the-point — to demolish anyone and “prove” the player’s moral superiority.
You were using the tired trope that goes something like this: “Instead of admitting that Liberal Dudes have a legitimate point about the batshit insane brand of Twisty Faster feminism, we’ll call them pathetic little whiners and snivellers and just generally speak about them in the same way that wingnuts talk about John Edwwards.”
HTML: Actually, no, I wasn’t.
Conclusion: Maybe a forum focussed on debate and mockery isn’t going to yield the most fruitful discussion on a lot of people have personal issues with.
I used to use the “nice guy” argument — swear to god — in first grade. It went like this: All the other boys think girls have cooties. I think that’s silly. Girls are just like boys, but they don’thave pee-pee parts. I like girls, too. And I think that makes me a better person. But I still don’t know why girls don’t want to be friends with me.
And at that age, I wasn’t thinking about sex. There’s something powerful about sexual attraction that goes so far beyond “sex”… it’s an easy thing to lose sight of once we discover sex itself…
Anyway, I’m sorry if I’ve picked on people in this thread. I think it’s a blind spot for just about everyone, and being mean and sarcastic about it isn’t really productive, nor is it, forgive me for saying so, nice.
MzNicky,
She hasn’t, um, you know…has she?
inkadu said,
December 16, 2007 at 16:51
I’d like to second Actor21’s thoughts. I’ve questioned Bradrocket’s sexuality for several months now and he most certainly is a guy. Real men, you see, are more evolved. They understand that everyone is, at heart, a person, just like them. Well, not exactly just like them, because men are BETTER. Because real men, you see, have learned the Big Lesson in Life. Which is that women are just like MEN — unless they’re GALS. Because gals are shallow bitches
Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, no, but thanks for playing.
actor212: As far as I know she’s doing okay. I think she’s just taking a break.
inkadu said,
December 16, 2007 at 17:35
Brad –
Man, nobody ever gets my snark. I try to make it as obvious as I possible can and try to pile as many contradictions as close together as humanly possible and even arrived at a conclusion that was exactly the opposite of what actor21 meant.
Oh. OK. I was worried I miscommunicated.
You know, channeled a “guy” for a moment there…
Kevin Bacon Holding A Short Roll Of Playdoh-
I think I said find a better spokesperson, not that what he said was wrong, although it might be. If Rudy Giulliani said that marriage fidelity was very important to a happy marriage I would say he’s right but couldn’t you have quoted Paul Newman instead.
these language-game gotchas can be used — and are used, because it’s a cheap aside-the-point — to demolish anyone and “prove” the player’s moral superiority.
I was just making the point that “pussy” isn’t the best epithet — and no, I don’t think Brad is a bad guy, and he said I was right anyhow so we’re done here. So there.
As for me, I’ll stop using “maroon” as an epithet, because I’ve learned something today.
Everyone can, at all times, have their consciousness raised. This is a good thing. And not all attempts to raise consciousness are criticisms of said individual. Sometimes, it’s just a teachable moment where someone should teach.
bob, It’s kind of ironic that women think
The charter bus of Straw Women just rolled up to the curb.
Soullite: Yes, feminists just don’t care about the issues of men.
Jeff, I didn’t mean to imply that *you* did. Still, it was prayed that Brad be smited for using the word. That’s not saying the same thing as “that’s not the best epithet to use.” Instead it was used, like I noted tongue-in-cheek with your use of maroon, as if Brad was some morally-abominable wingnut clone.
Who’s the asshole here, then? The pray-for-smite crowd? The let-the-perfect-be-the-enemy-of-the-good crowd? Or Brad for using an ill-advised word in good faith? I know who is, which is why I, in turn, am such an asshole *in response* in these threads.
HTML: Actually, no, I wasn’t.
Oh, really? Then why did you put it that way if it wasn’t a sneer at me and a defense of her god-awful stupidity?
So Mr Ace feels that being pro-male is ‘refreshing’ and ‘bracing’. A daring, contrarian position to take. I don’t know what universe he is living in, but I would like to visit it some time.
Contrary to popular belief, the word pussy, meaning cowardly or craven, is NOT from the euphemism for the female sex organ. It is a shortening of :”pusillanimous” a word that means craven or cowardly. From the latin pusilius or small boy and animus or spirit. So pussy means having little boy nuts, not a vagina. See? Use the word as intended and correct those who misunderstand.
I’ve heard that before myself. Unfortunately, popular usage* has pretty much made it so that anyone who calls another guy a pussy is trying to imply femininity along with weakness and cowardice, hence the numerous other words used as insults that imply the same. Simple experiment to prove it – ask your typical troglodyte if “pusillanimous” is really what he meant when you hear him call some guy a pussy. He’ll probably furrow his brow before calling you a faggot and punching you, thinking you’re making fun of him with those big words.
*I’m sympathetic to people who refuse to give up on a word/phrase of noble or neutral origin despite what it’s turned into. Every time I see some moron use “begs the question” when what they really mean is “raises the question”, I grit my teeth, knowing that my using the phrase as intended will require an addendum in explanation. But in the case of a word like “pussy”, I just say: it’s over. The knuckle-draggers have it, they’re not giving it back, time to move on.
My problem with a certain subset of feminists, such as Twisty’s commentariat, is their unwavering, absolute certainty, which enables what would be otherwise hypocritical acts, such as generalizing about men in simply hateful ways. It’s the mirror image of the Lesser Perfesser’s flunkies.
This is among the, unfortunately, best proof of the underlying truth many have voiced in this thread; people are people, regardless of what they have between their legs. Women are just as capable of being huge assholes as men.
I don’t understand why these guys want a personal servant instead of love, tho. I can’t imagine being with a woman who doesn’t tell me when my shit stinks or take out the garbage on her own sometimes, or who I don’t actually love and desire the company of.
On the other hand, I suck at meeting females, too, but that’s because I’m an odd type who very few people can both follow and enjoy the company of. I just hope I can meet a Daria or Lola Granola type who isn’t into the theory of the patriarchy, eventually.
Oh, really? Then why did you put it that way if it wasn’t a sneer at me and a defense of her god-awful stupidity?
Because you seem to still be smarting from your last encounter with Twisty. And because it seemed to me that someone would have to be a bit thin-skinned to nurse hurt feelings after six months over the words of someone whose perspective he consider to be “god-awful stupidity.” Apparently I was mistaken.
Djur, I don’t know much about that author. I was mostly referring to internet feminists anyway. I’m sure there are plenty of feminist scholars out there who do actual sociological research and deal with the actual important issues.
However, here on the internet, they think the best way to get men to hear them out is to ridicule general sources of resentment. We never get any actual discussion of how patriarchy operates. Instead, we get criticism of men in general for buying boob-shaped mouse pads, and we get it from a group of people that probably mostly own battery operated penis’s. So it’s hard not to read a general resentment of men into some of this crap.
“pussy” is not an insult. Indeed, all of my experiences with pussies have been on the positive-to-extremely positive part of the spectrum of experience. They’re quite nice, and they’re often attached to interesting people, which is even better.
And the thing is, Jeff Fecke, you seem to not realize how condescending and sexist this very statement is. Unless you’re being meta-sarcastic, in which case, you’re not very good at it.
If I may – I took his point to be that even if you approach the discussion on Ace’s terms, treating women as objects, or more to the point, extensions of their genitals, most guys have had very pleasant experiences with those “objects”, so what’s with all the misogyny? You have people like Ace using the same word as an object of intense desire and visceral loathing at the same time, which seems to tell us a lot more about Ace’s feelings about himself than anything. He apparently hates himself for being a slave to his desires, but directs his anger elsewhere. I didn’t get the impression that Jeff saw women the same way.
Anyway, just sayin’.
‘Scuse me. I was, um, just looking for the bathroom.
I’ll be going now…
mikey
I’ve never encountered Twisty, thank God. Only her many …umm, thin-skinned fans who come here scanning every word for ‘evidence’ of sex/looks/etc/ism just so they can call this blog’s writers some Godwin’s violation-wingnut-bigot-equivalent.
How did Twisty’s creeps put it to Mikey? That she can run her own place by her own rules? Yeah, well so can we. So people who come here praying that we be smited for using ‘pussy’ the wrong way (but in good faith) or ‘nailed’ (in a correct context) can accept our rules or STFU.
soullite said,
December 16, 2007 at 22:18
go fuck yourself.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, WTF. I think I’ve severely miscommunicated myself here. Because treating people as individuals is pretty much the point I was trying to make. I.e., that having a friend, whether male or female, is more important than the next lay. WTF did I do wrong here?
Not agreeing with a hole-riddled paragraph of playdoh and bacon boy for starters.
Soullite, another “nice guy” who finishes last because women – especially “internet feminists” – are such mean mean bitches.
On praying and smiting and crowds: Let’s keep things in context and perspective. The prayer for smite was issued twice by one commenter. And judging from that commenter’s past intervention here, I hesitate to identify tsisageya as representative of any particular crowd, besides her or his own.
I pray that those who pray for smiting get gesmotet. Um, wait, I didn’t mea… AAAAIIEEEEE!
It seems strange to me that about halfway down the thread people started affirming that “women can be assholes too” when nobody said that all women were perfect. Unless I missed it.
I think the point is that if a guy is whining because he was “nice” to this girl and she never got inspired to sleep with him for it, that guy is not actually very nice, but rather an entitled manipulative jerk. From this anecdote we learn nothing at all about the quality of the woman in question. She could be a great or a terrible person, but we all agree that if she is indeed a bad person it is not because of her failure to sleep with said “nice” guy.
Seems to me that there is a certain amount of violent agreement going on. It sounds like a big dustup but pretty much everybody here agrees at the heart of it. It seems that even *Ace* is on our side in this one, fer chrissakes!
I didn’t “affirm” it. I was referring to the already referenced twisty crowd, and how they unwittingly prove their own point. I wasn’t trying to denigrate women. I’d say I meant quite the opposite, but I guess calling y’all capable of being assholes isn’t exactly complementary. I wasn’t saying “women suck, too”, I was saying that, to me, the fact that some do suck is further proof, at least to me, that people is people is people.
Urgh. Calling me out for that is hooey.
Most chicks like hot sex. Is there something wrong with this ?
I’ll stick my oar in here, because I can never resist a good barney. Most of what I’m reading here is pretty inoffensive stuff: this guy who thinks he’s a nice guy is a total blodget; everyone gets dumped sometime; anyone who approaches a friendship with the aim of getting a leg over and then gets sulky when it doesn’t happen is a tossbag; and so on, gender or sexual orientation notwithstanding.
So I don’t know what some of you are getting so het up about, I really don’t. I haven’t seen any indication that anyone thinks that all men who get dumped deserve it; that women are better than men; that all men wear spotted underpants or that all women cut holes in those underpants while men are at work. Really, honestly, I’m not seeing any of that. Just some fairly measured responses and a dollop of assumption-leaping.
But soullite, you’re a tosspot. Honestly. Please don’t come here and whine about ‘feminists’ this and ‘feminists’ that, because you’re tarring a hell of a lot of sensible people, male, female and otherwise, with the same brush you’re complaining about. So bugger off.
a different brad,
I didn’t mean anyone in particular. There were just a few people who mentioned it. I am certain that I did not accuse anyone at all of “denigrating women.” I am also not at all offended by the statement that there are female assholes out there, as it is both quite true and has nothing to do with me (I’m pretty confident in my own decent character). I was just pointing out that it is sort of a non-point, since you could hardly disagree.
And for the record I am a feminist and I also find Twisty Faster to be a little over-the-top.
So you and I have no quarrel, really.
Then I’m extra sorry I got a little snippy. I let being annoyed at something else follow me here, my bad.
Twisty Faster is fucking brilliant, an original thinker, and a true pioneer. Let me also say that I don’t agree with everything she has ever said. In fact, over the past two years or so, I have frequently disagreed with her, and her commentariat, and have been roundly denigrated for the same. “Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself.” I’m sure any freshman-level English major can cite the source for you. I’m old and I forget, but I think it was Whitman.
HTML: If you’re telling ME to “STFU,” then I will. If you’re talking to someone else, let it be known. I don’t have the time or patience for this.
The reason you folks and Ace are missing the point, somewhat, of the Craigslist posting, is that the guy’s post, “what happened to the nice guy”, is a question that is asked daily on CL dozens and dozens of times a day by woman seeking men.
So while your ragging on the guy is mostly on point, it’s really mostly on point if the guy had posted it completely out of the blue which is the take most people are giving it here.
But when you realize that daily the question is asked by many women that claim to be seeking nice guys and wondering what happened to them all, then his answer is more apt.
Near as I can tell, almost all of you including Dan Riehl, the poster at CL and Ace are in violent agreement. The nice guy thing doesn’t work. Many of us started out that way, and many of us have gotten past that.
Lots of people like to blame just one gender for “this situation”, but it’s really just dynamic between both genders. It’s not that the passive aggressive nice guy who acts nice to get into her pants should ever really have succeeded. But then again, lots of society, men and women, are telling the men that they will succeed, and telling the women both that they should be seeking the nice guy as well as seeking the alpha not so nice guy. So it’s not really unexpected that guys like the CL guy will wonder why the women did this, and why the CL women will still seek their nice guy. And the CL poster probably is correct that 6/10 times the CL women seeking the nice guy probably really and truly isn’t, just like the CL nice guy really isn’t that nice.
On the other hand, take a look at zuzu tonight who has posted the same sort of comment. In zuzu’s world, most men are secretly attracted to fat women but are shamed into denying that.
Zuzu is just the opposite of Mr. CL. Most women are not attracted by the passive aggressive nice to get into her pants nice guy, and the world does not owe the nice guys a nice vagina to use, and most guys are probably not attracted to fat women, and the world does not owe fat women a damn thing more than it owes any of us.
Sucks for the lonely nice guys and the lonely fat women.
I had 2.5 entire threads on Twisty Faster devoted to enbanulating me, and my name there is an archetype of evil, and I don’t have anywhere near the chip on my shoulder about it that HTML seems to have.
So I don’t know what some of you are getting so het up about, I really don’t. I haven’t seen any indication that anyone thinks that all men who get dumped deserve it; that women are better than men; that all men wear spotted underpants or that all women cut holes in those underpants while men are at work. Really, honestly, I’m not seeing any of that. Just some fairly measured responses and a dollop of assumption-leaping.
Well, seeing as how I’m the one who made the original comment, let’s ‘leap’ together.
Ahem. Guys. The reason that women don’t want to sleep with you isn’t because they’re greedy bitches or because the evil media is training them to hate you or because they’re crazy nutter loonies who contradict themselves and send you mixed messages. It’s because you suck. Yes, it’s that simple.
:This is too funny…no matter how hard I try to be a self-absorbed asshole, I keep getting jilted…
“Beta males”, as you call them over at the other blog.
Sorry, but it doesn’t make any of us guys on the Good Side of the political ledger feel any better about ourselves for our lack of sex.
We beat ourselves up good enough internally, we don’t need a pile-on, That’s what some of this commentary feels like.
Ever walk into a room and feel everyone is talking and no one is listening? Yeah, me neither.
HTML is white, male, and apparently hard done by. I have a vague feeling that this is somehow connected to his attitude towards so-called “identity-politics” movements, but it’s hard to put a finger on it.
HTML: If you’re telling ME to “STFU,” then I will. If you’re talking to someone else, let it be known. I don’t have the time or patience for this.
Look, MzNicky, I love you, but I don’t have the time or patience to deal with the crap anymore. I’m not telling *you* to STFU, I’m telling *everyone* whose reason for existence is to troll liberal blogs policing language (or photoshops) to STFU.
I never said it was wrong to tell Brad that he might wanna pick a better word than ‘pussy’. I’m saying that if that minor faux-pas, done in good faith, is the first best thing someone can find to comment about in the post, then maybe they need to go somewhere else. Like TBOGG’s, where they can pray he be smited for outrageous sexism the next time posts a cheesecake pic of Jessica Biehl, or to Roy’s, where they can pray *he* be smited for talking about fucking a lot of pussy and for saying in so many words the gospel truth that Garance Franke-Ruta sux.
IOW, people who are gonna treat us like wingnuts just need to fuck off. We’re not, we don’t hate women/minorities/fatties/whomever; and while we’re not perfect by any means (and welcome constructive criticism), neither must we sign on to the sort of sinister perfectionism some over-invested bores insist upon in order to be decent human beings.
J— : that’s fine, and I didn’t know about the previous appearance, but still. Don’t you think it was meaningful that I was the only one who said anything about it? No one else was offended. Several, though, thought it was better to continue piling on Brad.
Hey, Mandos. Nice to see you, too. Yep, I’m still here being a total — uh, white supremacist, I think, was the verdict last time!
I believe Twisty, Nullifidian, Nezua, Illyka and Zuzu are batshit crazy people, therefore I’m a “Liberal Dude,” and a billion times worse than Hitler! That’s me!!
P.S. Lord,
Please tell HTML Menken, in Your Own inimitable way, to go fuck him/her self. Smiting is in order, yes?
As always, it’s Your call, of course.
Oh, and thank You for blessing Sibel Edmonds.
Amen.
HTML Mencken: Wendy Kaminer of the ACLU and FIRE. Free Speech feminists. Free speech for everyone, not just for feminists or the politically correct.
Because remember, it’s okay for us all to laugh at images of white nerds at Sadly No!, but it’s not okay for us to laugh at images of Daffyd holding a big old sammich.
Mikey wins the thread!
SN was overdue for a good old fashioned gender-political flame war. Just be glad it didn’t turn into fifteen posts with over 500 comments each, spread across four different blogs, all filled with commenters who fundamentally agree on most issues calling each other evil monsters.
Unless you like that sort of thing…
J says: On praying and smiting and crowds: Let’s keep things in context and perspective.
tsisageya says: Yes. Let’s.
J says:The prayer for smite was issued twice by one commenter.
tsisageya says: You might want to do a recount. The numbers have gone up, and are steadily rising, dumbass.
J says: And judging from that commenter’s past intervention here, I hesitate to identify tsisageya as representative of any particular crowd
tsisageya says: Oh, J, you’re such a diplomat!,
J says: besides her or his own
tsisageya says: I think you may be wrong about that, J. Take a good look around and get a clue. Quickly!
No, it’s more that you’re oddly obsessed and—dare I say it—tilting at windmills, engaged in a Quixotic quest to prove that you are…what…persecuted? Insulted? What? …by crazy ball-busting feminazis. It’s really odd. There’s an enormous chip embedded in your shoulder, and I dunno what it could be or how to surgically extract it.
No, it’s just that you have enormous blinders on, and kick and scream anytime someone tries to take them off. It’s like, you’re some kind of humourless leftist or something.
The point is that a few of us think that, on occasion, the willingness of someone to use certain words and jokes as weapons for totally good causes reduces their capacity to advocate for certain others needing advocacy, and perhaps hurts the cause of those others.
I mean, sometimes to some of us it feels like you want to kick the puppy when its down. You seem to resent that implication so much so that it seems like you think someone has kicked your puppy. I’m just really confused as to which of your puppies got kicked when.
I know, I know. Any second now, the big hammer will fall on poor tsisageya and Sadly, No! will no longer be available to her, her computer’s IPS address having been banned, and all. Sigh.
Whatever shall I do???
Now, now, tsisageya, we wouldn’t want you to develop a persecution complex, now would we?
Homework assignment:
What does the name tsisageya mean and, in what language is it, if any?
There will be a pop-quiz.
Now, now, tsisageya, we wouldn’t want you to develop a persecution complex, now would we?
Are you attempting to “shrink” me, Mando? Or is this where we’re all supposed to laugh?
AngryOldBroad, part of the 13-year-old’s problem may be that middle school is an invention of the Wingnut’s Devil. It’s true that anyone who’s had to deal with one sometimes feels like all 13-to-16-year-olds should be shipped off to an isolated compound where they’ll only be able to annoy each other, but in real life, it only makes it harder for the less annoying 13/16ers to get through a really really trying phase. Awful as my school experience was, even at the time I appreciated the fact that the 8th graders had to behave with some level of restraint, because they were told they had to Provide A Good Example to the Little Ones, and the 6th and 7th graders couldn’t let their bully flag fly for fear of being crushed by the 8th graders. Other than that, most 13-year-olds grow out of it — it’s the opposite end of Mark Twain’s famous quip: “When I was 14, I was ashamed at how ignorant my old man was; by the time I was 21, I was astonished at how much he’d learned in only 7 years.”
As for the rest of your comment, Jules Feiffer had a cartoon (between his divorce & his remarriage) where the archetypal JF Man announced:
“Men don’t hate women! Men need women! Men hate NEEDING!”
Here’s a little Twisty . Dear Lord, I LOVE HER!!!
Here’s a little reminder to brighten your day: all humans are conditioned to despise women. A woman can be criticized, sentimentalized, brutalized, infantilized, minimized, empowerfulized, pedestalized, pornalized, and penalized, but she can never be humanized. The American legal system, as a matter of fact, effectively outlaws humanity for women. It does this in many ways, all of which define women in terms of male sexuality. One of the most insidious is its assertion that women are in a perpetual state of ‘consent’ unless they specify in front of 147 witnesses that they have withdrawn it (more on my radical notions about consent and women’s humanity here, and even more blamer contributions here). It is by this cunning method of ascribing to women the quality of unceasing availability that the future of rape as a cornerstone of human social order is secured.
Batshit crazy? Or brilliant motherfucking human being?
Discuss.
(I was making fun of HTML. Don’t validate his stereotypes!)
Eloquent writer talking about a serious problem, but also a firebomb thrower who isn’t all that interested in the way her ideas might actually pan out. If we agree that the criminal system should require a presumption of innocence, the way that necessarily MUST play out in a rape trial is that the woman MUST be presumed to have consented.
I believe that discussion happened before I was banned, and I never saw how anyone thought her idea of the inadequacy of consent would play out in an actual courtroom.
Children, children… It’s been almost 30 years since a Proud Gay Activist accused me & my feminist friends of Mortal Political Incorrectness for using the words suck and arsehole as insults, because sucking “obviously” referred to what gay men do, and the other one insulted a body part “only” gay men could appreciate. This was so long ago, we had to conduct the ensuing flame-war at bimonthly intervals on paper. The individual posts were somewhat longer, but the end results were no more edifying.
P.S. Proud Gay Activist didn’t persuade anyone to stop using the terms he found offensive, either. Because making an arsehole of yourself will only convince them you suck, and not in the fun way.
P.P.S. On the other hand, I still think “pussy” is like “n*****” — not using it doesn’t seriously limit one’s ability to be personally insulting, and doing so in the wrong company always leads to ugliness.
P.P.S. On the other hand, I still think “pussy” is like “n*****” — not using it doesn’t seriously limit one’s ability to be personally insulting, and doing so in the wrong company always leads to ugliness.
This entire thread could have been saved with “weenie”.
Righteous Bubby says:
This entire thread could have been saved with “weenie”.
Vienna, or Ballpark? And is there any substantive difference between a “weenie” and a “weiner”? What about “dick”?
I suppose I should feel sympathetic towards you, and yet—I can’t.
…and balls. What about BALLS. Boy, strong, gutsy people sure do have BALLS.
If you don’t have BALLS, you’re a P*SSY.
Do I have it right now?
It’s entirely possible to be annoying about it, and to be annoyed by it. However, it’s possible to be annoyed without acting like someone is kicking your puppy. I just don’t understand why HTML Mencken is so sensitive about it, like he doesn’t have a sense of humour.
Mandos says:
If we agree that the criminal system should require a presumption of innocence, the way that necessarily MUST play out in a rape trial is that the woman MUST be presumed to have consented.
The accused is presumed innocent. True
The accuser is presumed guilty. False
No, but the complaint is that a rape trial rests on the credibility of an accuser’s claim that she did not provide consent. Consequently, if the accused is to be presumed innocent, it must be that the accuser is saying something untrue in some way. The only other alternative is that the accuser was bad at expressing herself—we can’t say that the accused was bad at listening, because that’s the substance of the rape charge. One way or another, the crediblity of the accuser ends up getting impugned.
Mando, you’re not an attorney, are you? No, I didn’t think so.
A trial rests on the ability of the prosecuting attorney to prove the burden of guilt. Is that how they say it?
(Hey, wait. I’m not an attorney either! *gasp!*)
Mandos, is it possible to translate the phrase “agree to disagree” into your language?
Because sometimes it’s just the only phrase that really works.
tsisageya:
Before I get associated with you in anyone’s mind in with you as “one of Twisty’s commentariat,” let me hasten to insert here an invitation for you to go fuck yourself.
Also, it may now be apparent why Mandos was roundly voted off the Twisty Faster island.
Blargh, garbled sentence. You get the drift. Where’s my damn coffee.
i just want to say for those who think the use of the word “pussy” and all its negative connotations is some awful exemplar of why language is patriarchal, to look at the word “dick” and how its thrown upon men of a certain caliber. I think there’s a give and take here that we can all handle.
You’re right that IANAL, but, um, I’m pretty sure that the defense is supposed to, shall we say, critique the evidence behind the accusation…
I’m not saying it’s right, it’s merely that we’ve set up the justice system adversarially. It’s a verbal fistfight. If you want to avoid these problems, you have to set it up some other way.
Sure.
But IBTP became an echo chamber after I left, you know… The problem with that place is that it was too easy to nigletize the maze of sweeping statements, and TF didn’t exactly respect her commentariat anyway.
It’s still not clear to me why Mandos was voted off the island, apart from the fact that he seems to argue civilly, and with logic, and Twisty et. al., (along with many feminist blogs and rightwing blogs and more than a few left wing blogs) couldn’t have that.
But I’ll say what Mandos appears to be afraid to say, which is that since in every other criminal trial, including female on female violence and even female on female rape, the accuser has his/her facts and claims disputed that it is sexist, condescending, and patronizing to demand that rape victims need to prove their claims.
Of course, when men complain that a woman initiated an act of domestic violence, (and studies show they do with about the same frequency as men initiating domestic violence) would Twisty, tsisageya, et. al., demand that women do not have to claim the men to be wrong about their claims?
A woman can be criticized, sentimentalized, brutalized, infantilized, minimized, empowerfulized, pedestalized, pornalized, and penalized, but she can never be humanized.
Which is more sentimental, infantilizing, minimzing, pedestalizing, or even dehumanizing, to ask that a woman proves her claim or to make a special case and say that a woman does not have to prove her claim?
Is it truly equality you are seeking?
demand that women do not have to claim the men to be wrong about their claims?
Should be:
demand that women are not allowed to state that the men are wrong about their claims?
I was voted off the island because I had a personal spat with a couple of other commenters and Twisty was getting bored of the dynamic and wanted to become more serious, which she did by starting a bored and then disappearing. She tolerated me for, like, years, otherwise, because it amused her.
And I have to hand it to Twisty—no one, and I mean no one, could have given me a better banning. It was SO AWESOME.
BTW, I disagree with some of anon’s claims and don’t want to be associated with them myself, like the DV claim, which is standard MRA cant.
TF didn’t exactly respect her commentariat anyway.
Sure she did. Unless they were pendantic fucking assholes (her description).
dammit!
PEDANTIC
Christ I need coffee.
to “Htmlmencken” or whatever and “Mandos:
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/8185.html#comment-366055
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/8185.html#comment-366008
i don’t know you, i dont want to know you, and i dont know why you are putting my name in your mouth. if you have an issue with me, email me (cuz i dont do flamewars) and we can work it out. otherwise, leave me out of your juvenile rants.
nlxj[a]theunapologeticmexican[d]org
or
theunapologeticmexican.org/contactnezua.html
Heh, someone has Google Alerts.
You know who else has Google Alerts? Althouse.
Just sayin’.
BTW, I disagree with some of anon’s claims and don’t want to be associated with them myself, like the DV claim, which is standard MRA cant. It’s more like standard FRA statements than MRA cant.
Have you investigated these statements? I hope you’ll pardon me, and correct me, if I assume you have not.
Prior to disagreeing with a statement because it seems like cant, you may wish to do your own research into the statements. A good place to start to find some studies that support my statement might be here.
What you are told is cant may in fact be supported by research, and experts in the field. Experts that include many women Ph.Ds and women attorneys. Not to mention supported by many feminists involved in the field as well, including the founders….
You may actually wish to ask yourself, what do you really know about “MRA” apart from what you have been told by some very partisan actors?
Instead of demonizing MRAs, you may wish to investigate some. A very good place to start would be with the progressive Glenn Sacks. I think you would find there an activist who is every bit as reasonable, logical, and fair as yourself, if not more so. A blogger who is open to discussion, takes care to cite his sources, and has many positive things to say about feminism and in fact about many of the feminist bloggers who have then gone on to defame him.
I think you would find there, not the conservative that he is often painted to be, but a progressive and most likely a progressive liberal.
If you read his blogs over time, I think you could determine for yourself he is every bit the liberal progressive blogger as many of our leading feminist bloggers claim to be.
You may decide for yourself there is little “reason” for you to disassociate yourself with such statements, though as my interactions with our speech and thought police have convinced me to post anonymously, I completely understand how “reason” may not enter into your end decision and you may still feel it necessary for you to disassociate yourself with such statements.
As I mentioned to HTML Mencken, you might wish to start reading Wendy Kaminer’s blog. Kaminer is an acknowledged feminist and yet is an ardent defender of our civil liberties. It is interesting to read her take and see how it differs from the standard feminist line.
Also interesting to read is of course Jeralyn Merritt. Who but our best and brightest feminist bloggers and commenters would claim that Jeralyn Merritt is not a feminist? But of course, that’s what many did when the Duke incident happened, and Merritt took a stance in favor of the students.
There are many different well respected movements within feminism and many of them would have no problem with my statement that you fear is cant. Don’t limit yourself by a few Internet bullies, regardless of how well they write, or how long their blogroll is.
anon said,
December 17, 2007 at 5:28
The reason you folks and Ace are missing the point, somewhat, of the Craigslist posting, is that the guy’s post, “what happened to the nice guy”, is a question that is asked daily on CL dozens and dozens of times a day by woman seeking men.
Yes, to which I usually reply “out living a life, and not posting to Craigslist”…
When someone regularly throws Molotov cocktails into her own party over a period of years, it becomes less and less clear that she doesn’t view a good chunk of her guests with much more than thinly veiled disdain. Compounded by the level of worship some people gave her.
But it was sure entertaining.
I’ve been reading MRAs on teh intert00bz for eons now, and on BBSs before that. I’m aware of the offerings out there, and came to the conclusion that I don’t agree. Let that suffice.
I believe Twisty, Nullifidian, Nezua, Illyka and Zuzu are batshit crazy people
Dunoo Twisty Faster from Adam (or Eve) but I regularly read Zuzu’s comments at Lawyers, Guns and Money (including a fine thread discussing this very same article) and “batshit crazy” is not the phrase I’d think of to describe her. More like “measured, thoughtful, reasonable.” She is an outspoken feminist, tho, so in the absence of other evidence — provision of which is generally the responsibility of the person throwing out random insults, and not the person reading them — I have to conclude that for HTML a feminist woman is batshit crazy by definition.
(And for what it’s worth, nobody asked me to post this, I just came here from a link to that same LGM post.)
i don’t know you, i dont want to know you, and i dont know why you are putting my name in your mouth. if you have an issue with me, email me (cuz i dont do flamewars) and we can work it out. otherwise, leave me out of your juvenile rants.
What, I can’t mention your name without paying a royalty or asking permission? Fuck off.
I have to conclude that for HTML a feminist woman is batshit crazy by definition.
No, but a person who would ban photoshops of giant sammiches is batshit crazy by definition. That’s Zuzu.
No, but a person who would ban photoshops of giant sammiches is batshit crazy by definition
If by “ban photoshops” you mean “would prefer that you not make fun of people’s weight,” then yeah, I remember that debate. Seems to me it puts Zuzu in the category of “people you disagree with,” but I guess that would lack the drama of being a First Amendment martyr to them crazy wimmin.
But wait — I thought you said I meant all feminist women were crazy by definition? Don’t you stand by your smear? I mean, why backpedal.
And the projection going on in this thread is precious. Mandos thinks *I’m* “humorless” because I told truly humorless people to fuck off if they can’t appreciate a joke at wingnuts’ expense. Now pitkin’s saying I’m trying to play the martyr, when it’s the over-invested idiots he’s defending who claim to be so deeply injured by a fucking photoshopped sammich or a guy saying ‘pussy’ when he means ‘wimp’.
You are indeed humourless. You missed the joke! Did you not see the italicized “sensitive”?
Giant sammiches are not that funny. They are, actually, banal. Teh funny can be found in hilariously subtle ironies.
But you are playing the martyr. Why is it SO SO important to you to make fun of a wingnut’s weight? Why is a wingnut’s weight an aspect of his wingnuttery? Why can you not see that associating it with his wingnuttery is kicking someone else’s puppy.
Which of your puppies got kicked?
Mandos, if you haven’t visited Glenn Sacks, I invite you to do so. You may be pleasantly surprised by what you find.
Why is it SO SO important to you to make fun of a wingnut’s weight? Why is a wingnut’s weight an aspect of his wingnuttery?
You missed that whole thread, didn’t you? You also don’t know anything about Daffy ab Hugh, either.
But the real point is that you don’t get that you’re not the fucking moral arbiter around here. You don’t get to say “I don’t find x funny therefore no one decent should find x funny.” No one needs your approval.
You don’t think shit’s funny? Then don’t read it. You don’t like something here? Fine, say so. You think I’m an asshole? Good. I don’t care. But when you start spreading the smears — the kind ajax can’t take off, that are reserved for wingnuts — when you start calling us bigots (racists, sexists, etc), that’s when you can fuck right off and you make a permanent enemy.
Think that’s too harsh? Still invested in defending zuzu’s crusade against all pejorative humor in perpetuity throughout the universe? Then read Chris Clarke’s first reply to me in that long thread and notice that you’re also disagreeing with him. Then go bitch (ooh, I said ‘bitch’ — obviously, I want to shove all women into ovens!) at him for not being invested enough in your tiresome war against the impure.
For linking to this, I’ll never get Mandos to visit Glenn Sacks, but as far as “measured, thoughtful, reasonable” go, just yesterday zuzu was opining that men secretly dig on fat women but are shamed into denying this.
The gibbering and incoherent rage that comes up when this subject is raised is really astonishing, especially that from men, and especially men who seem to think that they’ll be FORCED to find fat women attractive if fat somehow becomes acceptable.
…But I do think this status thing ties into this terror of having to accept fat people, particularly fat women, and especially particularly fat white women. It’s like some kind of advance case of cooties or something, where the very idea of being seen as accepting a fat person as a human being might contaminate that person. And I’m sure a lot of it is simple social anxiety and far too much emphasis on status and the “market value” of one’s mate (which seems to be a big thing in libertarian circles these days). Because you might secretly be attracted to fat women, but you wouldn’t want anyone else to know about it, so you have to loudly proclaim how disgusting they are.
I suspect the owners of our vast Internet porn sites can give us relatively accurate and precise figures on the numbers of men attracted to virtually any fetish you can imagine. And if there was a large and hidden number of men secretly attracted to fat women, we would have heard about that by now….
zuzu is measured, thoughtful, reasonable, but there’s little possibility of dialogue since she is so averse to reality based conversations. In the meantime we have her very much anti-liberal speech and thought policing.
I do want to sincerely apologize for one thing, though.
I thought Doodle Bean was ‘bean’ at LGM. I think now that I’m wrong. So that part where I advised Brad not to be so worried about apologizing to someone who called the Dems’ SCHIP commercial racist (yes, because it showed a white baby instead of a black one) does not apply, and must have appeared as a non-sequitur.
Apologies to Doodle Bean and everyone else for my error.
Giant sammiches are not that funny. They are, actually, banal. Teh funny can be found in hilariously subtle ironies.
I am curious as to what comics you listen to, or rather, which comics you use to listen to, but now understand go to the “giant sammich/banal joke” far too often.
I try to avoid stating policy on what one person or another can or should find funny, or what art, literature, wine, beer, cheese, or body shape they find interesting, because it usually just turns out that I am an ignoramus.
Perhaps I do understand a little better now why you may not enjoy Wendy Kaminer’s blog or those of other free speech zealots.
TESTIFY!
There’s an enormous chip embedded in your shoulder, and I dunno what it could be
1. I hate being called a bigot because I’m not.
2. I hate people who think they have the moral right to remove words from my lexicon just because they *want* to take them in a way I don’t mean them.
3. I hate jackasses who think they have a moral monopoly on a given subject just by dint of their identity.
4. I abhor people who proscribe humor — which is an art or craft — not on grounds of taste but on grounds of ideology.
5. People who can’t see the forest for the trees greatly annoy me. I mean this mostly in regard to moral triage (e.g, wrt Ron Paul, another weapon to end the war with is more valuable than Great Moral Stands against a few retard miltia in Montana who post i *heart* RP on message boards).
6. It’s come to the point that a class-based Left is dead, and I place heavy blame for this on upper middle class liberals whose sole political investment lies in their gender, racial, sexual, or ethnic identity. Yes, I’m saying that I believe *over-invested* Identity Politics killed and then replaced a formerly middle- and working-class movement that included *all* races, ethnicities, genders, and sexual persuasions. Then people who annoy me, in turn, like to argue that I therefore am a bigot, or don’t care about identity issues, or would sell out x group for a box of Frosted Flakes, etc. but all that is untrue.
These are serious matters, I care about them personally and for sake of principle.
That’s weird. I posted after HTML, but my post now precedes his.
That’s cuz it ate half my comment and I had to rescue it manually and repost it.
Just to pre-empt:
There are exceptions to numbers 2 and 3. For number 2, there are obviously words in contexts that are unusable (e.g., the n— word in every context I can think of right now). For number 3, as far as I’m concerned, women ought to have a monopoly on the abortion subject (though they don’t get to say that abortion can’t be made fun of, but you know what I mean).
I believe that you can generalize #3 to both sexes by saying, “Keep the government off our bodies.”
The problem with doing so is that many pro-abortion feminists who use this argument now also strongly advocate for government mandated injections of a poorly tested vaccine into pre-teens against the statements of one of the women the woman that were responsible for designing and testing this vaccine.
(And I am very much pro-abortion rights so no need to tar me otherwise.)
I think the n–word can be used when discussing the sociological implications of the n–word, eventhough i’m not using it now just because i don’t want to start a threadjacking shitstorm. But generally i think people look ridiculous when they try to discuss something but not actually mentioning it because some moral outrage junkies will jump all over the first person who actually mentions it.
Well said Mencken. I wish people could at least come together to put a stop to the massive theft of what wealth this country has left by a tiny percentage of the population. It seems it’s more important now to make sure that nobody gets their little fee-fees hurt than to give a shit about the rape of our nation. (RAPE JOKE! EVIL LIBRUL DUDE IN DA HOUSE)
Not that these language politics aren’t important, but honestly I can’t think of anything more useless than clobbering your allies because they said something mean and uncouth. This is a humor site. If our esteemed blogmasters don’t push the damn envelope a bit it’d be staid and boring. This goes for those whining that these sexual threads are hitting too close to home as well. Suck it the fuck up and quit your damn whining! This is coming from a recovering Nice Guy, so don’t think my ox ain’t being gored here. So what? If you can’t laugh at yourself you’ve already lost the game.
Fuck it…
As for sammiches, when zuzu started the sammich shitstorm that picture was almost a year old. Some fuckwit rightwhiner pulled it out of the mothballs and did a stupid post on it, and zuzu ran with it like it was hot. She didn’t question the wisdom of using it, and she didn’t suggest that it was in bad taste and could be taken wrong. She lauched a fucking broadside against SN saying they all hated fat people and were Republicans in disguise. Had she never done this, the sammich would now be long dead and forgotten, but thanks to her efforts the sammich will live on as long as SN exists.
It’s called blowback, and that’s why it’s funny. If you don’t get it, you never will.
I thought you said I meant all feminist women were crazy by definition? Don’t you stand by your smear? I mean, why backpedal.
Well, I think you’re an asshole. I’m still working out the specifics.
It’s come to the point that a class-based Left is dead, and I place heavy blame for this on upper middle class liberals whose sole political investment lies in their gender, racial, sexual, or ethnic identity. Yes, I’m saying that I believe *over-invested* Identity Politics killed and then replaced a formerly middle- and working-class movement that included *all* races, ethnicities, genders, and sexual persuasions.
Well, I sahre your commitment to a calss-based Left. But blaming its demise on the blacks and the women is Mickey Kaus-grade stupid. It was wrong 30 years ago when it was fresh, and it has gotten any less wrong by marinating in resentment and self-pity for a couple of decades.
I mean really, “I call people pussies and make fun of their weight only in order to help the fight against economic injustice.” Do you even believe that shit yourself?
Fine, pitkin: I’m an asshole. But you’re an idiot. I’m not blaming it on ‘blacks and women’ — see, there you go again calling me a bigot and thinking I should smile about your fucking awful slander. Did you not read what I wrote? I’m blaming it on fairly rich liberals who’d rather rectify the language than do something constructive or truly inclusive.
I mean really, “I call people pussies and make fun of their weight only in order to help the fight against economic injustice.” Do you even believe that shit yourself?
I mean really, you stupid fuck: I didn’t call anyone a pussy. I made fun of the weight of a chickenhawk shithead *wingnut*.
Or, what Jrod said.
Well said Mencken. I wish people could at least come together to put a stop to the massive theft of what wealth this country has left by a tiny percentage of the population. It seems it’s more important now to make sure that nobody gets their little fee-fees hurt than to give a shit about the rape of our nation. (RAPE JOKE! EVIL LIBRUL DUDE IN DA HOUSE)
No shit. But then some women, some minorities (which pitkin grossly misinterprets me saying as ‘all’, thus demonstrating my virulent sexism, racism, etc) are wealthy and dont care about that, and they are the ones who’ve taken over the movement. Ann Bartow is a lawyer and academic. You think she’s worried about how to pay her next electric bill?
1. You missed a big chapter from The Manual, I think. We all have some racist and/or sexist blind spots. It does not make us Klansmen. No one is calling you a Klansman. However, being defensive does sort of increase your JQ. (Jerk quotient.)
2. You don’t get to set the meanings of the words you say. They have effects outside your desires. It really is a kind of solipsism to think otherwise.
3. When it’s *your* life, you know…
4. Art, too, can be a weapon. Can we not agree on that? If so, then go forth, but use it judiciously. It cuts more than you are willing to see.
This was so far too easy. We clearly have not yet gotten to the HTML’s Kicked Puppy. But we’re getting there.
5. The problem with moral triage is that some people kept getting demoted to the end of the priority queue. So, they stopped being willing to do so. That’s the annoyance with the Liberal d00d, you know. The penchant of the Liberal d00d to somehow never get around to other people’s issues. Consequently, some people are rightly unwilling to overlook the flaws in Ron Paul’s agenda, just because Liberal d00ds think he is right on the ONE EARTHSHATTERING POINT. There are a million of these.
Actually a lot of effort has gone into understanding how it is that racism and sexism and other -isms go into setting up a society of war and economic inequality.
And seriously, the Wealthy White Woman shtick is so 2004. Feminism would have been propelled as far as it has without its middle-class white women.
And now…I think we have gotten as close as we can to the Kicked Puppy:
6. See, I think you’re scapegoating the wrong scaped goat. The reason why the class-based left is “dead” is the same reason that Sadly, No! hammers away at day after day, at its best. It’s that the powers-that-be have played a divide-and-conquer game to which you have clearly succumbed. Through their vehicles like Rush Limbaugh et al., they pit the working-class man against the detested Professional White Woman. Hence the Hillary-misogyny (not that I care for Hillary’s policies).
It is best exemplified by Jrod’s comments:
Go Jrod! Way to show zuzu! Seriously, what good does glee in this do you? Why prove to feminists, etc, that Liberal d00ds can *never* be counted on to be consistent with their issues? With their issues, that do include the way we use language and our fundamental thinking about identity. That they are not so stupid as to have blown out of proportion so badly. Unless you are a Liberal d00d, attached to your blinders.
See this is the problem. You have scaped the wrong goat and created a false opposition. Why do you succumb to this kind of propaganda?
HTML: May I at this point reiterate a previous comment:
December 17, 2007 at 14:34
… it may now be apparent why Mandos was roundly voted off the Twisty Faster island.
As I recall, the decision was nearly unanimous. Go figure.
i just want to say for those who think the use of the word “pussy” and all its negative connotations is some awful exemplar of why language is patriarchal, to look at the word “dick” and how its thrown upon men of a certain caliber. I think there’s a give and take here that we can all handle.
Equal in theory, perhaps, but I really don’t see how anyone who’s actually existed in the real world thinks those two things are perfectly equivalent.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but the reason I spoke up early in this thread about it is because I think it’s fucking stupid, not because I worry about anyone’s “fee-fees” or because I think someone can’t handle it. I have this old-fashioned idea about wanting my words to match my thoughts and intent. I don’t agree with the obvious misogyny behind the use of those kinds of epithets, so I don’t use them (balls = courage and integrity, pussy = cowardice and weakness, just to use one example. Yeah, just sheer coincidence, I’m sure.) I don’t call people cocksuckers either, because, to be perfectly plain and earnest, I don’t think there’s a damn thing wrong with women or men sucking cocks, so why the fuck would I use it as an insult? The late, great Gilliard once argued that it was okay as long as it was only being used to cause offense to someone who did have a problem with it; i.e. an uptight, homophobic wingnut. Somehow, he didn’t draw the obvious conclusion that by this logic, someone calling him a nigger would have been fine as long as they protested that they didn’t really have a racist bone in their body, they were just trying to get his goat.
But I know, this is all just “whining” (translation: being concerned with an issue I feel is trivial) and being a language Nazi who wants to scrub everyone’s vocabulary with bleach. Fucking hell, I don’t have that power, never have had it, never will, don’t even want it. What I do potentially have the power to do is make people feel embarrassed and self-conscious about talking like a fucking idiot frat boy, and if that’s what I’ve done to anyone, well, congratulations, you still have a conscience and sense of decency. Now quit stamping your feet and spouting off like Andrew Dice Clay just to prove that no one can get near your mouth with a bar of soap. What kind of people have a chunk of their identity all tangled up in juvenile words from elementary school?
Oh, and I forgot: It seems it’s more important now to make sure that nobody gets their little fee-fees hurt than to give a shit about the rape of our nation.
Jesus, does this one ever fucking retire? Yes, it’s an either/or choice. A zero-sum game! Can’t walk and chew gum at the same time. The few minutes I’ve spent thinking and writing about this would have been otherwise spent giving a big ol’ shit about the “rape of our nation”, whatever the fuck that would have accomplished.
Funny, Mandos made a point which has been rattling around in my head pretty much all day. The over-invested identity politics problem is most definitely not limited to blacks and women; in fact I think white males are amongst the largest contributors to this brand of idiocy. Some obvious examples include minutemen, klansmen, and MRAs. It’s a mistake to think that any group is immune to this bullshit, hell these days it’s more likely than not.
One striking example was provided by the screenwriter’s guild strike. Now, as far as I’m concerned if you can’t get behind a strike you are not really a leftist. Yet, on several supposedly left-wing sites I’ve read commenters withhold their support because, I shit you not, TV writing sucks these days, and don’t those guys make piles of money anyway? They’re probably enjoying a long vacation while I gotta go to work and yadda yadda etc. Never mind that TV writing has probably never been better and most screenwriters are far from rich, but what the fuck? Is this the left now, a bunch of smug assholes passing judgment on who is worthy to collectively bargain for better treatment from their super-rich employers?!
We’ve ben so conditioned by our culture to abhor cooperation. Cooperation of all kinds is intolerable! We must band together with those who are damn near just like us and hammer those other guys, because any gain they make must surely come at the expense of ourselves. Expand SCHIP? Hell no, that’s my money! National health care? You mean they’ll just let anyone go to the clinic? Ew…
The screaming over Dafy’s sandwich was just a small example of this sort of thing. Mocking one fat-ass who thinks he’s Rambo wielding a BFG 9000 must, must be an assault on all fat people’s very right to ever feel happiness! It’s just the example that made its way to this site, so it’s what gets discussed.
I don’t know why I just wrote all of this on a dead thread that nobody’s gonna read. Oh well.
One more thing:
First of all, I’m not out to show zuzu anything. I don’t hold any grudge against her and I like the majority of her writings. I even thought she had a point in that whole mess, even if it was buried in a series of emotional diatribes. (And to be fair, she only started it, but it took many to keep it going and I’m as guilty as anyone was in that whole stupid mess.) The thing about that picture and the variations that have appeared here since then is that it’s now a meme, or maybe more accurately an in-joke. It’s not much different from Steel Reserve references or pining for the days when Bruce was with us. It’s a signifier for the community here with a meaning almost totally divorced from what was originally intended.
It’s ironic that zuzu’s attempt to stamp out the sammich made it immortal. Irony is the basis of all humor, such as the irony of men unfit for any activity more strenuous than walking to the fridge pontificating on the glories of war.
But what do I know? I’m just a librul dood, a half step removed from Pol Pot, or so I hear from sources who are most certainly blinder-free.
I’m often reminded of this bit of dialogue from the old TV show “All in the Family.” Archie Bunker, the quintessential working-class bigot, is conversing amiably enough with a young black male character (I forget the circumstances), and then Archie calls him “boy.” The young black guy says, “Mr. Bunker, don’t call me a boy. I’m a man.” Archie sez, “Yeah, yeah, okay, you don’t have to be so sensitive! Jeez, I’m a man too, you don’t see me goin’ around making a point about it.” To which the young black guy responds, “You never had to.”
It’s this same type of unlevel ground upon which attempts to equate the pejorative use of the words “pussy” and “dick” are made, and why it doesn’t work. The penis/phallus is something to be flaunted, admired, measured, and spoken of in terms of action, strength, and control. The vagina has long been something to be hidden, something rather shameful, passive, kind of icky, an absence, a void. Combine this with eons of universal sexual objectification of women, and perhaps it becomes clearer why some of us do “have to be so sensitive about it.” Yes, men are humans who are more than their genitals, but so are women. It’s just that as men, you never had to go around makin’ a point about it.
Giving a fuck about the rape of the country or whatever doesn’t mean a goddamn thing if what could be one large group working together to stop it is instead thousands of small groups sniping at each other because they use the language differently, or they do different sorts of work, or they find different things funny, or one group has stars on their bellies and one group doesn’t.
If someone calls people s/he doesn’t like a pussy cocksucker, but votes for pro-abortion rights and anti-war candidates each November, I’ll be glad to call hir my ally. How about you?
Oh, pussy and dick are quite far from being equal pejoratives, you’re right MzN. I do think it’s still hypocritical to call for God to kill someone for using one while you use the other.
I just think people will talk how they talk, and trying to change that in any way will always be counterproductive. In this case pussy got crossed out after the complaints, yes, but did anyone’s fundamental beliefs about the humanity of women change?
I’ll do my best to teach my future children not to use those words, and why they shouldn’t use them. (assuming I’m actually still able to have any) Worrying about it beyond that is just tilting at windmills, in my opinion.
I praise the Lord – and if anyone believes in him they’re not on my team God damn it – that I speak English and not some language that requires each noun to have a gender.
I used to frequent a message board that tried to eliminate gendered pronouns. What they came up with was ze for he/she and hir for him/her. I always wished it would catch on but didn’t feel like explaining myself about it after every damn thing I wrote. But heck, if ya wanna try it on this site I’ll use ’em from now on.
Another fun thing that site did was writing in E-prime, where you weren’t allowed to use either be or is, or any of their conjugations, because of course assigning objective reality to any mere human perspective is folly. Folly I say! It is a good mental exercise once in awhile, though.
I mean it seems like a good exercise to me.
E-prime
It’s an interesting idea, but if I can’t be stupid in every which way you can keep your linguistic revolution.
I do think it’s still hypocritical to call for God to kill someone for using one while you use the other.
So all of a sudden we’re offended on this site by the silliness that we otherwise correctly call out as total bullshit? Okay, whatever. By the way, I was not the one who called for “smiting” anyone. I’m Buddhist, and we don’t believe in such stuff.
did anyone’s fundamental beliefs about the humanity of women change? … I’ll do my best to teach my future children not to use those words, and why they shouldn’t use them.
Baby steps, dude, baby steps. Progressives (should) know this by now. My profound gratitude to you for thinking, and doing.
I’m Buddhist, and we don’t believe in such stuff.
But do you believe in self-immolation?
Baby steps?
“rape of our nation”
Yes, I know that no one actually gives a shit and that it’s really not happening.
Ostrich meat, anyone?
tsisageya:
Before I get associated with you in anyone’s mind in with you as “one of Twisty’s commentariat,” let me hasten to insert here an invitation for you to go fuck yourself.
All righty then. Ditto. Exemplified. Times googleplex. Times infinity.
Bitch.
Please die now. Go ahead. I want you to. Just. Stop. Breathing.
Gosh, I love justice.
Yay.
Goodbye, Sadly, No!
Goodbye, tsisageya.
Oh wait — I see you’re now annoying people on the current page.
What IS your problem? Nevermind, I don’t care.
Naw, it didn’t offend me, I just thought it was stupid. I didn’t mean to imply you’d said it either, but my riting sux LOL so I see why you’d think so. Sorry ’bout that.
And now that this has fallen from the front page, it’s time to go make fun of Jonah. Again.
And again and again AND AGAIN…
Babylon has fallen, fallen.
(ooh, what a kook I am!)
Let’s just kill each other off. K?
Seems good.
Fuck you, and good night.