“Yet, not since Ronald Reagan visited Central America and said “You’d be surprised — they’re all individual countries down there” has someone been so impressed by his own ignorance.”

And right there you have the hallmark of religious home schooling, and, indeed, of the conservative view of education generally. Aggressive ignorance is prized in right-wing circles. Hence all the “yeah, man!” and back slapping when The Doughy Pantload told Juan Cole that it was “elitist” it expect someone (like Goldberg) to have even a rudimentary knowledge of a subject before spouting off about it in public.

All the Jesus rode a dinosoar nonsense is just another manifestation of the same phenomenon.

Conservatism: It is anti-knowledge. When it meets knowledge, the two wipe each other out in an explosion of pure stupidity.

Uh, is that Daimon Hellstrom? If so, wouldn’t that make him Jesus’s nephew?

True enough. It would also make Patsy Walker Jesus’ daughter-in-law. I’ll fix…

And who was the devil’s mom? I assume she wasn’t a virgin, so how can god be sure anyway?

But the answer to Huckleberry’s question is, they do.

Specifically, they believe that all sentient beings are the “spirit children” of a Heavenly Father and Mother (though she’s not supposed to be discussed). Jeebus and Lucy-fur are “brothers” in the sense that all male spirit children are brothers.

Of course, all this gets tricky because much of Mormon theology is a pastiche of sayings and writings by the various white males who’ve been in its power structure over the years and what’s “official doctrine” roams about this cloud of beliefs depending on the needs of the era.

Most of the attention, from both the left and the right, seems to be focused on the notion that Huckabee, by asking if Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers, is denigrating the faith.

That’s what he’s trying to do, but considering the shit Huckaburp believes, he wouldn’t have a problem if Teh Devil took over for his bro’.

“Specifically, they believe that…”

I haven’t completely made up my mind yet, but I’m leaning towards the opinion that scientology is a bit more interesting than mormonology (scientism versus mormonism?).

According to the AP, Huckabee asked the question after saying he believes Mormonism is a religion but doesn’t know much about it.

What an asshole Mr. Only-Candidate-With-A-Theology-Degree is. He’s super-qualified to understand Islam, but that Mormonism…well is it a religion or no?

Don’t Christians believe that to redeem humanity an omnipotent God found it necessary to squish himself through the vagina of an already-married woman and then live as a pooping screaming baby?

GWB’s surprised remark to the president of Brazil, “Oh, you have black people here too!” gives Reagan’s remark a run for its money if you ask me.

In Huckabee’s defense, he is too busy campaigning to learn stuffs.

Mormonism is exactly as much a religion as Catholicism, Methodism, Islam, Scientology, or Voodoo. I’m not a big fan of religion, obviously, but Mormonism pretty much deserves as much respect as any other religion, as far as I can tell.

The Devil’s Grandmother

Incredulity from a guy who believes in talking snakes, donkeys and burning bushes, and who also practices symbolic cannibalism of his flying undead god-man.

Atheist — I agree completely. When I say I’m amazed that Huckabee says he believes Mormonism is a religion, I don’t mean that I don’t — obviously, it is. I mean that it’s ridiculous he would say that as if there was some doubt, and he did a bunch of research and decided, yes, he believes it is actually a religion after all. Instead of, I dunno, a toaster.

Spirula — right, exactly! “These kooks believe that one magical superhero I believe in and another magical superhero I believe in are RELATED! What a bunch of crazy nuts!”

Well, they are brothers, or half-brothers at least.

Same dad = half-brother.

Good point kiki

GWB’s surprised remark to the president of Brazil, “Oh, you have black people here too!” gives Reagan’s remark a run for its money if you ask me.

you’re kidding, right? Is this true? Cite, please!

I only ask, because I have already been disappointed to learn that the story of GWB waving at Stevie Wonder to get his attention was actually not true.

“These kooks believe that one magical superhero I believe in and another magical superhero I believe in are RELATED! What a bunch of crazy nuts!”

These sorts of questions can be settled. Obviously if he’s angry enough The Hulk is stronger than Superman, so Superman’s gotta finish The Hulk off quickly or look out.

What g said. Is that Brazil story true? I’d google it but I can’t seem to connect with google for some reason.

Well, Superman can FLY and the Hulk can’t! So Superman will beat him.

I’d google it but I can’t seem to connect with google for some reason.

Odd, I’m having the same problem. I can’t say for sure whether the quote is real, but AFAIK it is.

IIRC he didn’t use the phrase “black people” but instead said something like “Oh, you have blacks here too?”

To pick a nit, I think that question from GWB shows just as much ignorance as Reagan’s quote, but doesn’t have the same sense of smug superiority stemming from the ignorance. If he’d come back to the U.S. and pulled one of his kindergarten-teacher moments like “What you’ve got to understand is, they’ve got blacks in Brazil too!” – now that would be some pride in ignorance.

There’s so much babble about this and even from a theological perspective, I can’t really grasp it.

Lucifer/Satan in Christian theology is generally considered to be a fallen angel (who was described in Ezekial as “perfect from birth” until he found pride, after which God expelled him from heaven). The mormons believe, basically, the same story with the exception that he was God’s brother and he was trying to lead a revolt against his rule of heaven. Either way he became a most useful foil.

But here’s where I lose the plot. He was an archangel who was corrupted, basically, by intellect, questioning and materialism. So they kicked him to Earth. But we’re supposed to accept now that a guy who got a little big for his britches is supposed to be working in concert with God to take the sinful off his hands when they die? How does this make sense? If he hates God, you know, for kicking him out of heaven before he could successfully lead the coup, why wouldn’t he take those who God is closest to? Why does he take the rejects? And if he’s the negative version of God, has almost unlimited powers and can fire up eternal damnation for the other fallen folk, isn’t he also a God?

The Greeks and Romans had more sensical Gods. Their roles made more sense.

It’s too bad that after January 09 we won’t have George to kick around anymore. I guess political comedians will have to get used to not having the easy pickin’ low hanging fruit available and will actually have to work for a living. In order to put food on their families, as it were.

Some religions seem slightly less whack than others. That’s about the kindest thing I can say about organized religion. Huckabee’s brand of Christianity is definitely more on the whack side, in my humble opinion. But then again, I’m not the theologian the Huckster is.

The Greeks and Romans had more sensical Gods.

The people at that time were much cooler about fucking swans and bulls.

Did Bush really ask the Brazilian President if Brazil has blacks?

Answer hazy, try again later.

SamFromUtah, I have problems accessing Google fairly frequently. It’s quite annoying. Hey! Maybe it’s Huckabee’s god trying to stop us from eating of the tree of knowledge! His god isn’t too keen on people knowing reality-based facts and stuff.

I could give a fuck what any of them believe. These people also think prolonged alcohol abuse gives one advanced decidering abilities.

That being said, no way the Hulk can beat Superman. In fact, neither would win, because they both are prone to attacks of humanity.

Snopes: original source was a Sao Paulo newspaper, Der Spiegel picked it up, but there’s no primary source for it.

I, for one, am outraged by this crap about jesus and the devil being brothers

I know for a fact that they are sisters.
And they are both black.

That being said, no way the Hulk can beat Superman.

Way.

And if he’s the negative version of God, has almost unlimited powers and can fire up eternal damnation for the other fallen folk, isn’t he also a God?

This is why I sometimes think Christianity should be thought of as a Bi-theist Religion.

Lucifer/Satan in Christian theology is generally considered to be a fallen angel (who was described in Ezekial as “perfect from birth” until he found pride, after which God expelled him from heaven). The mormons believe, basically, the same story with the exception that he was God’s brother and he was trying to lead a revolt against his rule of heaven. Either way he became a most useful foil.

(Dredging up rancid, repressed memories of Catholic schooling…) “Satan” appears in the Bible twice: once in the Book of Job and once in the Gospels (John, IIRC, but I’m too lazy to look it up). In both cases, Satan is clearly Yahweh’s servant and acting on his behalf. Contrary to later beliefs, the “serpent” in Genesis is never actually identified with Satan, nor is Baal/Beelzebub, Astarte/Ashtaroth, or any of the other competing Canaanite deities.)

There’s some reference to the opposing force or the tempter in Paul’s letters, but I haven’t studied them in the original to know what term is used. (There’s one story where St. Paul consecrates a pagan altar to Jesus, and the altar cracks and a little dragon or serpent comes out, but I think that’s a later “saint story” as opposed to “biblical.)

The whole war of heaven, Lucifer as the fallen Morning Star, etc., are add-ons, becoming popularized by morality plays (and later by Milton in Paradise Lost). A large part of the Satan-as-tempter/source of evil/anti-God was codified in the Bull of Pope Innocent in the 1400s, which certified the Malleus Maleficarum and started the witch trials and the Inquisition. (I’m not sure at which point the baptism rite was changed to the whole “I reject Satan and all his works”, but I strongly suspect it was during this time period: “rejecting Satan” was the usual way to escape trial and toruture if you were accused of witchcraft.)

The distinction in Catholic theology between Satan/Lucifer/angels/etc. and Jesus is that Jesus was “begotten, not made” like the angels were. So, technically, none of the pre-human angelic beings could be Jesus’s “brother” because none of them were “children” of God (so any brother of Jesus had to be a half-brother from Mary’s side).

But here’s where I lose the plot. He was an archangel who was corrupted, basically, by intellect, questioning and materialism.

This is a Gnostic concept, and a later LeVey Church of Satan teaching. In Milton, Lucifer’s crime is “non serviam”–“I will not serve”: in particular, that he, an archangel, refuses to bow down to the human-born Jesus.

If he hates God, you know, for kicking him out of heaven before he could successfully lead the coup, why wouldn’t he take those who God is closest to? Why does he take the rejects?

Actually, he creates the rejects by tempting those who God approves of. Hence “the devil made me do it” as the ultimate excuse for doing anything wrong.

And if he’s the negative version of God, has almost unlimited powers and can fire up eternal damnation for the other fallen folk, isn’t he also a God?

Ding-ding-ding-ding! This duotheism–while technically a heretical belief that Satan is equal to or capable of defeating Yahweh–is very prevalent among evangelical Protestants and other sects that need to have an “enemy” to blame everything on and keep their followers in check. It’s a direct outgrowth of the mindset that created the witch trials: that Satan is so powerful he is a constant and real threat to God’s kingdom.

It’s medieval at best.

(And yes, there are large chunks of my memory that I will never get back–why do you ask?)

duotheism

That’s a better term, Dorothy

I haven’t completely made up my mind yet, but I’m leaning towards the opinion that scientology is a bit more interesting than mormonology (scientism versus mormonism?).

You’d have a decent argument – though the Mormons do believe that (white) male Mormons can ascend through various levels of heaven to the point where they, themselves, become a new god to their own new universe. In fact, our current “god” (who lives on the planet Kolob – conveniently positioned directly opposite the Earth in it’s rotation around the sun so we can never see it) is simply the “spirit child” of another “god” who, himself, advanced to godhood.*

So they got that going for them, which is nice.

*Note, IANAMormon – but I know many, both practicing and embittered and estranged. Lots of the former don’t even know the stuff I’ve mentioned is in their books (Doctorine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, etc) and my info has mostly come from the latter. So, take that for whatever it’s worth.

I’m thourghly impressed with Dorothy’s brief summary on the origins and history of Satan.

Of course, she could be his sister…which would be wicked cool.

As a former resident of the same part of backwoods Arkansas where Saint Huck “got hissef a ejukashun”, I am deeply offended by all of you filthy non-believers. The supernatural people in the Bible actually existed, whereas comic book superheroes are completely fiction. The proof is that the Good Book is very old. People didn’t just make up crazy bullshit a long time ago. I don’t have a source, but I’m pretty sure fiction was invented in the 1960s. By Satan. Who would totally kick Superman’s ass. If he existed. Superman, that is.

And Satan can’t be Jesus’ brother. There’s no way the Savior suffered wedgies and/or swirlies and the other associated rites associated with little brotherhood. Also, there’s no uber-delicious guilt-inducing Hellfire-laced Satan biscuit offered up at communion. I don’t know what more proof you filthy infidels need.

What intrigues me about the whole jesus genealogy is this business of Mary being born free from original sin. My understanding of the genetics is that Original Sin is an expression of the CLPA gene on the X chromosome. So Mary had a double knock-out mutation. Anyway Jesus is naturally sin-free (since he inherits CLPA- from Mary), but so are his younger brothers.
I think this fits in somehow with the less-famous Aaron, who carried heat.

What intrigues me about the whole jesus genealogy is this business of Mary being born free from original sin.

I think we can also assume from God’s choice that Mary’s vagina was of extra-high quality and that Joseph was, in spite of having to deal with that holy bastard, a very lucky man.

Well, now, most Christians believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers, so I’m not sure what the problem is.

The liogic is very simple: When God created the universe, there were no angels. Ergo, any angels that appear MUST have been created by God, just as Jesus was created by God.

This makes the angels and Jesus the second generation after the Creator

Since Satan was cast out of heaven, meaning he was an angel, he would be second generation after God, just like Jesus.

Ergo…I mean, unless you want to split hairs about half-brothers, and Mother Mary…

Smut Clyda.

She wasn’t born free of sin. She was conceived free of sin. A slight, but important. difference.

I mean that it’s ridiculous he would say that as if there was some doubt, and he did a bunch of research and decided, yes, he believes it is actually a religion after all. Instead of, I dunno, a toaster.

Well, remember, the Huckster’s popular with the sort of people who consider evolution, global warming, science in general, and atheism “religions”, so I don’t know what y’all all are so surprised about. Hell, I grew up Southern Baptist, and some of my family don’t think Methodists are actually Christian.

Well, yeah.

These are the same people who have more than once told me my atheism is a “religion”.

So atheism is a religion, but mormonism isn’t?

Wow. That is just so, I dunno, Bushie…

mikey

Atheism isn’t a religion until we get some decent swearing from it. “In the name of Dawkins!”
“By Dirac’s balls!”
…No, it doesn’t work

She wasn’t born free of sin. She was conceived free of sin. A slight, but important. difference.
I believe that this merely strengthens my case.

Atheism isn’t a religion until we get some decent swearing from it. “In the name of Dawkins!”
“By Dirac’s balls!”
…No, it doesn’t work

I’ve been thinking about that.

“No God, what a moron!”

When you have an orgasm, “O WORLD I’m coming!”

It’s gonna take a lot of work to get this thing going.

Ah, the Mormons. The only religion I know of with their own Transhumanist association.

http://transfigurism.org/community/

I once worked construction with a Mormon guy who thought of his own swear to fit in with the guys. When he hurt himself or dropped something or whatnot, instead of yelling “Jesus Christ!” he’d yell “L Ron Hubbard!” It was funny to us every single time …

“No God, what a moron!”

There was a good one of these in Monty Python’s Flying Circus – “My lack of God, it’s Trotsky!”

“Now that is stupid! I can’t believe you actually believe that!”

“Your refusal to worship at my God’s altar means I get to fantasize about you enduring an eternity of pain and suffering at the hands of the most vile demons I can conjure! So stop being SO mean and calling me stupid!”

…a Mormon guy who thought of his own swear to fit in with the guys…

That’s a common Mormon feature – it can be very amusing. I’ve been steeped in it long enough that I’m used to hearing people curse by saying “Flip!” or “Fetch!” because saying “Fuck” is a no-no. I do the same thing when I’m in pious Mormon company (in accord with the When In Rome principle). I’ve got one Mormon friend using the phrase “Mole poblano!” as a general-purpose exclamation of wonderment.

Well, now, most Christians believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers, so I’m not sure what the problem is.

The liogic is very simple: When God created the universe, there were no angels. Ergo, any angels that appear MUST have been created by God, just as Jesus was created by God.

Well, the purported issue is that Satan is not God’s “son” the way Jesus is–with that logic, plants and animals would be Jesus’s siblings, also.

The actual issue is more of an existential than a theological one, to whit: “B-b-but Satan’s the BAD GUY and Jesus is the GOOD GUY and they can’t be related because the BAD GUYS have to be THEM! If they’re not, how can I be special and hate ‘them’ in peace? Whaaaaaaaaaah!”

I may not have the correct terminology there, but my wingnut/English dictionary is at home…

“Nope, sorry! That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard!”

“Your continued refusal to accept blindly what I say is God’s will means I get to view your death would be justified however it might happen and how dare you be so hurtful by calling me an idiot.”

Dorothy said,

December 12, 2007 at 23:10
Well, the purported issue is that Satan is not God’s “son” the way Jesus is–with that logic, plants and animals would be Jesus’s siblings, also.

What? You mean man would have to have stewardship over the planet and protect God’s children?

What a concept! One might almost get nailed to a tree for such crazy talk!

owlbear1,
Yeah, that’s sorta the way I look at it to. What’s funny to me is that I’ve been told that not pretending to “respect” religious beliefs – i.e., not pray – is worse than treating the actual human being with respect while keeping my own council (for the there is a time and place for everything) and, thus, not acting like I think the whole thing isn’t fucking laughable.

Man, I look forward to the big family get-together every year for just this reason. Hey, during the 15-minute blessing my uncle gives before we get to eat someone has to keep an eye on the younger children, the mean little bastards.

Atheist — I agree completely. When I say I’m amazed that Huckabee says he believes Mormonism is a religion, I don’t mean that I don’t — obviously, it is. I mean that it’s ridiculous he would say that as if there was some doubt, and he did a bunch of research and decided, yes, he believes it is actually a religion after all. Instead of, I dunno, a toaster.

The question among evangelicals is whether Mormonism is a religion or a cult. By professing his belief that it is a religion, he is saying that his religious tolerance is so much greater than all those *other* Southern Baptist preachers.

Yeah, I know…

Matt T’s gotten closest to the “truth” that all you other heathens missed. In The Very Right Reverend Huckabee’s world, a RELIGION is a wonderous community, a staff in times of trouble, a battalion of the Righteous in defense of America and all else that is good and pure. All those other religion-looking-clubs that are not about how America is the most Perfect & Wonderful Country Evah! and St. Ronnie is Her prophet — you know, like Islam or Scientology — those are CULTS, false fake pretend religions. And the only thing worse than a cult is an ATHEIST, only Reverend Huckabee finds it hard to believe in his Godly heart that there could be worse than cults, so he prefers to think of you people who claim you’re ‘not religious’ (as if! That’s like a fish pretending it’s not aquatic!) as cultists who belong to very off-brand cults indeed.

See, The VRR Huckabee is all about the Love. And in demonstration of his God-given Spirit of Love, he’s even willing to grant a low-rent travelling-show mock-up like Mormonism status as a “real” religion. Is that not a graciousness surpassing even Romney’s own explanation that all Americans are religious and therefore all truly religious are in some sense American? That’s why Michael ‘Elmer Gantry’ Huckabee believes he’s rising so swiftly in the popularity polls — because His God is Love, for sufficiently meagre values of “love”.

God is Jesus. God is also the Father and the Holy Spirit. How exactly this works is the subject of a lot of seemingly pointless debates. I think the orthodox idea is that God is three separate and equal persons in one.

And RobW types faster than I do.

Re the stupid/conservative overlap, John Stuart Mill made an enlightening observation a while ago (March 1866, to be exact):

I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.

And of course Superman would beat the Hulk; he (Supe) is invincible, invulnerable, indestructible, etc. Well, unless the Hulk was wearing a kryptonite suit. Or knew magic. Or they were under a red sun. (Are those all of Supe’s exceptions? It’s been a while since my comic book days.)

Now, OTOH, who’s faster, Superman or the Flash, is a much more difficult question to answer.

“When he hurt himself or dropped something or whatnot, instead of yelling “Jesus Christ!” he’d yell “L Ron Hubbard!” It was funny to us every single time …”

I think this would work really well if it was “L Ron Fucking Hubbard!” But not otherwise.

Thanks! New swears are a good thing!

I’m very partial to Dr. Venture’s exclamation:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uywgp-XXwgE
(around 37 seconds in)

As Jimmy Carr asked, if we’re all God’s children, what’s so special about Jesus?

I for one am in favor of any geneology tht includes Son of Satan, especially his trident made of that other-dimensional metal, Netheranium.

And it’s so hilarious to read about the godfuckers and their hairsplitting contests and lack of perspective.

Mike Huckabee actually reminds me of Bush II when he was up for election in 2000: everything he says either makes me want to laugh or cry.

Netheranium?!
I think there are some of those growing down at the end of my garden.

Oh, hek, let’s all go nuke Christmas (on that other post) and get it over with…

A big chunk of Christian angeology and demonology derives from syncretic appropriation of Zoroastrian and Manichean traditions by the Essenes and Gnostics. I’m sure Govenor Huckabee was just trying to start a conversation on comparative theology.

Man, it gets confusing when people use “cult” and “religion” to mean different and mutually exclusive things. They’re both fine choices, whatever floats your boat.