Uh.
America has told Britain that it can “kidnap” British citizens if they are wanted for crimes in the United States.
A senior lawyer for the American government has told the Court of Appeal in London that kidnapping foreign citizens is permissible under American law because the US Supreme Court has sanctioned it. […]
The American government has for the first time made it clear in a British court that the law applies to anyone, British or otherwise, suspected of a crime by Washington.
Legal experts confirmed this weekend that America viewed extradition as just one way of getting foreign suspects back to face trial. Rendition, or kidnapping, dates back to 19th-century bounty hunting and Washington believes it is still legitimate.
The US government’s view emerged during a hearing involving Stanley Tollman, a former director of Chelsea football club and a friend of Baroness Thatcher, and his wife Beatrice.
The Tollmans, who control the Red Carnation hotel group and are resident in London, are wanted in America for bank fraud and tax evasion. They have been fighting extradition through the British courts.
During a hearing last month Lord Justice Moses, one of the Court of Appeal judges, asked Alun Jones QC, representing the US government, about its treatment of Gavin, Tollman’s nephew. Gavin Tollman was the subject of an attempted abduction during a visit to Canada in 2005.
Jones replied that it was acceptable under American law to kidnap people if they were wanted for offences in America. “The United States does have a view about procuring people to its own shores which is not shared,” he said.
He said that if a person was kidnapped by the US authorities in another country and was brought back to face charges in America, no US court could rule that the abduction was illegal and free him: “If you kidnap a person outside the United States and you bring him there, the court has no jurisdiction to refuse — it goes back to bounty hunting days in the 1860s.”
Of course, as a dedicated disciple of Hugo Chavez, I condone this sort of lawless behavior.
More background here:
U.S. officials, including a determined prosecutor, had contacted Canadian officials in a plot to trap Mr. Tollman in Canada under harsh conditions and away from his business and family — wanting to pressure him into abandoning his rights and surrendering to their custody, without following proper procedure, a judge would later rule.
Mr. Tollman, who is in his early 40s, didn’t know of the charges or his impending arrest. He was detained as he left the plane, and only recently returned to England after a lengthy legal battle kept him in Canada for almost two years.
Mr. Tollman successfully fought an attempt to extradite him in a quiet court case last year, when a judge slammed the actions of U.S. officials and made an exceptional ruling of “abuse of process,” after a trail of e-mails and notes made clear their attempt to avoid Canadian extradition laws.
Mr. Tollman was able to insist on his rights largely because of his “sense of outrage,” personal wealth, intelligence, stamina, power and prestige, Ontario Superior Court Justice Anne Molloy ruled.
“If the system went awry for him, what hope is there for the weak, the poor and those less powerful?” she wrote.
I just don’t know what to say anymore.
This has actually been the U.S. position since at least 1990, sanctioned by the Supreme Court in 1992 in U.S. v. Alvarez Machain.
Ex-Fed- yeah, that’s what I’ve gathered from doing some additional reading on this. Amazing. Does any other nation have a similar policy that isn’t roundly condemned by the rest of the world? I mean, I know North Korea pulls this kind of crap, but anyone else?
Israel?
The fact is, USA should have the right to bring criminals to justice everywhere. It is moral cowardice, which liberals are big on, to give up and let some weenies let the crooks get off free.
it is my supreme hope that france will kidnap donald rumsfeld and henry kissinger and jail them as war crinimals
Little known fact: – a New Zealand court kidnapped Gary Ruppert back in 2003. We gave him back. Actually, we insisted on giving him back.
This has actually been the U.S. position since at least 1990, sanctioned by the Supreme Court in 1992 in U.S. v. Alvarez Machain.
Didn’t they enact this as some kind of legal cover for going after Manuel Noriega?
And do you think Rick Moran is going to run by for a quick spleen-vent on this thread?
Actually, I have it on good authority that Kissinger checks with a nation’s equivalent of our State department before he travels there – to get assurances that he won’t be kidnapped and brought before the Hague like he deserves.
I love that we harbor war criminals. Gives me a fuzzy feeling inside.
Or maybe that’s just salmonella.
I’m not sure why the QC representing America thought using every stereotype the Brits have about the US would be a good move.
Brash?
Check.
Obnoxious?
Check.
Think they can do no wrong?
Check.
Wild West fetish?
Check…
Red Carnation hotel group?
Sounds like commies to me. Execute ’em first, then have the trial.
“Of course, as a dedicated disciple of Hugo Chavez, I condone this sort of lawless behavior.”
Could you even imagine the leval of outrage and nonsense the US media would be spewing out against President Chavez IF he had the audacity to start kidnapping foreigners wanted in Venezuela. After all, many of the most wanted in Venezuela are terrorists and former coup plotter living in the United States (e.g. like noted airline bomber for the CIA Luis Posada Carriles).
Remember, do as we SAY, not as we DO. If WE bomb an airliner full of innocent civilians, it is bringing “democracy” to the little godless darkies of the world; if YOU bomb an airliner, you’re a terrorist. If WE extend legal protection to admitted airline bomber, we are defending his human rights; if YOU try to protect admitted terrorists you are in fact “with them” and deserve to have thousands of your country’s civilians butched (re: Afghanistan & Iraq).
By the way, Fozzetti, I think you’re right. Israel is a US proxy, so of course it can do as we do. Mordechai Vananu (who exposed Israel’s nuclear weapons program) was kidnapped from Italy, Sheikh Abdel Karim Obeid (Hizbollah leader) was kidnapped from Lebanon, and there was an attempt to kidnap Victor Ostrovsky (the Mossad defector in Canada). Of course there was the famous kidnapping of Adolf Eichmann, but its hard to find much fault with that, after all the idea of putting a Nazi functionary on trial in Israel is pretty hard to complain about, legalities notwithstanding.
Mordechai Vananu (who exposed Israel’s nuclear weapons program) was kidnapped from Italy,
As he should of been. He is a trater to USA and Israel and Freedom.
Wow. Gary actually displayed some knowledge beyond shallow right-wing talking points. But he tragically mispelled Vanunu’s name. Fake Gary or no? It is so hard to decide…
He is a trater to USA and Israel and Freedom.
Fake Gary, due to overly hilarious and deliberate spelling error.
Stuart Taylor gives a good rundown of what the Bushies have been up to here http://nationaljournal.com/taylor.htm
Actually, I think he was a Trater-Tot…
mikey
I’m with kuvasz. The thought of Donald Rumsfeld hooded and zip-tied gives me wood.
“Displayed some knowledge” or “quoted the comment immediately above”?
Oops.
“This has actually been the U.S. position since at least 1990, sanctioned by the Supreme Court in 1992 in U.S. v. Alvarez Machain.”
My understanding is different. What the Supreme Court decided is that it cannot refuse cases based on how the defendant showed up in court. This is not the same as “sanctioning” the behavior. The Supreme Court did not rule that it was proper or legal, only that it did not have the grounds to refuse cases based on that.
I’m not sure why the QC representing America thought using every stereotype the Brits have about the US would be a good move.
He still gets paid, win or lose?
Well that’s bold of them.
A few years ago, the US “kidnapped” several Canadians and shipped them to Syria to be tortured. Of course, it was all hush hush until the shit hit the fan.
Oh yeah, I should add that although the victims were suspected of being linked to terrorists (because they happened to be Arabs) they weren’t charged with any crime and they were….duh!… innocent.
So when is the rest of the world going to invade us to stop our government from doing something really stupid. I mean more stupid than we’ve already done. They must know that we’re near capacity and fully functional on stupid. It’s only a matter of time, and we could really use a democratic government here.
Regime Change!!
Woo. Hoo.
mikey
Doctorb: “or ‘quoted the comment immediately above’?”
Sorry about all the little typos (there were several: “the leval” “many of the … former coup plotter” “Vananu” et al.), I just can’t help ranting (and thus typing badly) about our (as in US) hypocrisy.
Okay, calm down – breathe in – breathe out – breathe in – breathe out …
France First!
gbear,
I KNOW! we are losing friends all across the board, it seems like it’s only a matter of time before everyone gets either extremely annoyed or incredibly angry.
I heard that Angela Merkel of Germany/the EU is considering taking action against GWBush for crimes against humanity. has anyone else heard about that?
Germany also holds that they can prosecute any foreign national under it’s own system, though I’m not sure if they have abducted anyone.
This may turn out well for the U.S., if OUR many War Criminals are kidnapped and taken to Europe or an Arabic country for trial. It wouldn’t surprise me if Rove had a teddy named Mohammad (?). I bet they all do!
According to you liberals America is the bad guy and America is always wrong. Why don’t you liberals just flat out admit that you want the terrorists to win? You are all a bunch of treasonous dogs who are willing to sell out your own Country to a bunch of European elitists and third world dictators. You should all go on a one way trip to Saudi Arabia seeing as you love the islamo-facsists so much.
The Ministry of Truth and Justice ALWAYS gets their man.
Fuck it, Saul, get a new Wheel of Hate Talking Points. Jesus fuck munch.
According to you armadillos Surinam is the bad guy and Surinam is always wrong. Why don’t you armadillos just flat out admit that you want the platypuses to win? You are all a bunch of spicy cucumbers who are willing to sell out your own Country to a bunch of Micronesian elitists and third world bandicoots. You should all go on a one way trip to Finland seeing as you love the platypuses so much.
Saul, you must be mistaken — Saudi Arabia is our ally in The War Against Terror (TWAT). Anything that appears to contradict that is probably taken out of context or made up.
Yes, the King and Royal family are our allies, however 18 out of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia and Osama Bin Laddin himself is from Saudi Arabia. The fact is, the majority of Saudi’s are members of the Wahhabist sect of Sunni Islam which is the branch of Islam that the Al-Queda and Talliban terrorists suscribe to. The majority of Arabians are unfortunately sympathetic to Bin Laddin.
Saul, you must be mistaken — Saudi Arabia is our ally in The War Against Terror (TWAT).
LOL, yep.
I’m just a foot soldier in the TWAT….
mikey
Well, it turns out that the Great War on An Abstraction isn’t a replay of World War II after all, so no “even Greatest-er Generation” label for the reichtard warpigs. And they haven’t had much success in re-starting the War Between the States, though not for lack of trying.
Therefore, they’re trying to re-play the War of 1812 — but *this* time, they figure we can conclusively kick the British navy’s arse, you betcha!
If I thought it would lead to Dubya fleeing the White House, with Laura packing St. Ronnie’s good china and Karl’s “missing” emails in with her sensible undergarments, I’d find it hard not to applaud their efforts.
I’m not sure I follow the reasoning.
Someone says they can do something, so that validates it and they don’t have to give a fiddler’s fuck about international law.
Is that about it? Lawlessness is where it’s at?
Man, things are spiralling downward quickly now.
Oh, and troll, the terrorists have already won. Does your country look like itself these days? Whole thing went to hell about 6 years ago.
Someone says they can do something, so that validates it and they don’t have to give a fiddler’s fuck about international law.
Might makes right. Power is its own justification. Only self-hating liberals apologize for being able to do anything they want. Wise up to the real world, where we create our own reality, facts & laws be damned. All glory to the Fearless Leader.
The fact is, international law (other than English Common Law) has absolutely no relievence in American Courts. Only a liberal treasonous dog such as yourself would think otherwise.
The fact is, I need more talking points. The one’s I have are as worn out and flaccid as my wee-wee after a Brad Pitt movie marathon.
Apparently TrollServ2000 is running a bit slow. g, can we borrow some of your squirrels?
This is one of those posts that make me wanna ask how you folk get your fake identity passports, but then Gary would know, too, and there’d be blastfaxes about it tomorrow.
diff: Find someone born about when you were (obits, public records) but who died very young. Get their birth surf-i-ticket (as B. Marley said) take it from there. This has become a bit more difficult in recent years, as SSNs are being given to people at a younger age than previously, but it shouldn’t take too many tries.
Why not go with the same thing you said back in 1994, when the FBI first started using this exact same justification and exact same practice for the kidnapping/rendition/extradition other indicted criminals abroad. (The Looming Tower p203).
My god, maybe next the FBI will set up a task force for crimes committed on this whole “internet” thing. Oh wait, they started that more than a decade again too.
Well to be fair, the US counsel was wearing chaps.
Well yeah. But not just any someone, the president.
And not by just saying it, by issuing an executive order.
In the 90s. His name was Bill something.
The majority of Arabians are unfortunately sympathetic to Bin Laddin.
I’ve never liked horses
It wouldn’t surprise me if Rove had a teddy named Mohammad (?).
Are we talking about stuffed animals or negligées here?
Sorry, the first sentence is a quote from Fozzeti above. Other problems are a combination of software and overnighter addledness.
And not by just saying it, by issuing an executive order.
In the 90s. His name was Bill something.
You will find that many posters and commenters here don’t like that guy much.
So if an American bounty hunter comes after me in a third country, can I blow his head off with my shotgun and call it self defence?
I mean since they don’t really care how I show up, doesn’t that justify me not really caring how I don’t show up?
This is what happens when you replace international law with yippee kai yay yay law.
“I just don’t know what to say anymore.”
Pass the KY?
Someone already beat me to “kidnap US war criminals” comment.
Mordechai Vananu (who exposed Israel’s nuclear weapons program) was kidnapped from Italy,
As he should of been. He is a trater to USA and Israel and Freedom.
Let’s recap here:
According to Gary, letting the world know that an aggressive, religiously-dominated Middle Eastern country has nuclear weapons is “treacherous”…
[…] Kidnap, the New Reality Show Via Sadly No!, the US now has said to a British court that it is legal for the US to kidnap people in Britain if […]