Social-Science Corner
According to a new Gallup study, things are not at all as they so richly seem:
Republicans Report Much Better Mental Health Than Others
Relationship persists even when controlling for other variables
by Frank NewportPRINCETON, NJ — Republicans are significantly more likely than Democrats or independents to rate their mental health as excellent, according to data from the last four November Gallup Health and Healthcare polls. Fifty-eight percent of Republicans report having excellent mental health, compared to 43% of independents and 38% of Democrats. This relationship between party identification and reports of excellent mental health persists even within categories of income, age, gender, church attendance, and education. […]
Correlation is no proof of causation, of course. The reason the relationship exists between being a Republican and more positive mental health is unknown, and one cannot say whether something about being a Republican causes a person to be more mentally healthy, or whether something about being mentally healthy causes a person to choose to become a Republican (or whether some third variable is responsible for causing both to be parallel). […]
Have you spotted the basic, indeed the whoopingly asstarded problem with this analysis? It’s one so fundamental to the job of polling that Mr. Newport, Editor-In-Chief of Gallup, can’t possibly have typed up such a report in good faith.
But the key finding of the analyses presented here is that being a Republican appears to have an independent relationship on positive mental health above and beyond what can be explained by these types of demographic and lifestyle variables. The exact explanation for this persistent relationship — as noted — is unclear.
Yes, very educational. If we assume that people’s subjective, self-reported assessments of their own mental health are the same thing as actual, objective data on mental health, then tweet-tweet, look at the birdie.
Also the case: One cannot say whether something about having extraterrestrial nanobots injected into one’s brain causes a person to develop symptoms of clinical paranoia, or whether clinical paranoia alerts the extraterrestrials to initiate a nanobot implant (or whether some third variable is responsible for causing both to be parallel).
Since we’re learning so much this evening, now seems an excellent time for an excerpt from Robert Altemeyer’s latest book, The Authoritarians. The book is based on over thirty years of carefully-designed surveys and quantitative work on what Altemeyer calls the right-wing authoritarian personality type (RWA) — i.e., the sort of character that makes up the Republican base. It explains the results of the Gallup study quite a bit more elegantly:
If you ask people how much integrity they personally have, guess who pat themselves most on the back by claiming they have more than anyone else. This one is easy if you remember the findings on self-righteousness from the last chapter: high RWAs think they had lots more integrity than others do. Similarly when I asked students to write down, anonymously, their biggest faults, right-wing authoritarians wrote down fewer than others did, mainly because a lot of them said they had no big faults. When I asked students if there was anything they were reluctant to admit about themselves to themselves, high RWAs led everyone else in saying, no, they were completely honest with themselves.
Now people who abound in integrity, who have no faults, and who are completely honest with themselves would seem ready for canonization. But we can wonder if it is really true in the case of authoritarian followers, given what else we know about them. So I have done a simple little experiment in my classes on several occasions in which I give some students higher marks on an objective test–supposedly through a clerical error–than they know they earned. High RWAs, for all their posturing about being better than others, are just as likely to take the grade and run as everyone else. But I ‘spect they forget such misdeeds pretty quickly. Self-righteousness comes easily if you can tuck your failings away in boxes and put them at the back of the shelf.
In fact, despite their own belief that they are quite honest with themselves, authoritarians tend to be highly defensive, and run away from unpleasant truths about themselves more than most people do. Thus I once gave several classes of students, who had filled out a booklet of surveys for me, personal feedback about how they had done on a measure of self-esteem. Half the students were told they had scored quite high in self-esteem, and the other half were told they had scored quite low. (These scores were assigned at random, which I confessed to them at the end of the experiment.) I then told them these self-esteem scores predicted later success in life, and I would bring copies of the evidence supporting the scale’s validity to the next class meeting for all the students who wanted to see the evidence.
High RWAs were quite interested in finding out the test was valid IF they thought they had done well on the scale. But if they had been told they had low selfesteem, most right-wing authoritarians did not want to see evidence that the test was valid. Well, wouldn’t everyone do this? No. Most low RWA students wanted to see the evidence whether they had gotten good news, OR bad news about themselves.
What do you think would happen if someone gave right-wing authoritarians a list of all the things that research has found high RWAs are likely to do–such as be prejudiced and conformist and supportive of government injustices? The respondents are simply asked, for each characteristic, “How true do you think this is of you, compared with most other people?” (Are you more prejudiced? Are you more of a conformist? Etcetera.)
High RWAs show little self-awareness when making these comparisons. Sometimes they glimpse themselves through a glass, darkly. For example they agree more than most people do with, “I like to associate with people who have the same beliefs and opinions I do.” But they have no idea how much they differ from others in that way. And most of the time they get it quite wrong, thinking they are not different from others, and even that they are different in the opposite way from how they actually are. For example they are sure they are less self-righteous than most people are–which of course is what self-righteous people would think, isn’t it? And when I give feedback lectures to classes about my studies and describe right-wing authoritarians, it turns out the high RWAs in the room almost always think I am talking about someone else.
Frank Newport of Gallup: So vain, he probably thinks this song is about him
Republicans are damaging my mental health. So they’ve got that going for them.
it’s probably easy to be mentally secure when you don’t care about anything besides yourself.
In other news, 90% of Republicans report believing they have a “Much Larger” then normal sized penis, 91% report they are “More Patriotic” then their neighbors, and 101% have reported having caught a fish “This big, I swear”.
92% of Republicans claim their own mental health is good or excellent.
In an unrelated study, 92% of incarcerated individuals claim they are innocent.
That picture is begging for a Photoshopped sammich. Or something.
Blogs for Victory is making a big stink about this.
In the best-titled book of the 90s, “Rush Limbaugh Is A Big Fat Idiot”, Al Franken cites a survey of Americans’ knowledge of current political issues. Respondents were asked to rate their own level of such knowledge, and also asked specific questions about political issues. The talk-radio listeners rated their own knowledge as superior to that of all other groups, but gave the most wrong answers to the specific questions. It’s another variant on how only the insane never doubt their sanity.
We all know how highly the Republicans rate their own morality. And they’re really upset at our laughing at their bribe-taking, boy-chasing, bathroom-propositioning, and lying about adultery. How can they keep their morality self-esteem high if we keep pointing and laughing?
Yeah. I often look at the never ending Parade o’ Perversion that is the Republican leadership and it’s supporters and think “There’s a mentally stable bunch.”
I guess they’ve never heard the one about crazy people not knowing they’re crazy.
“its” damn it.
I totally and implicitly trust everything S,N! says, evar, although I am by no means a follower. No, I am a free-thinkar, a free-thinkar who thinks S,N! is always right.
Republicans are significantly more likely than Democrats or independents to rate their mental health as excellent
of course they do. just like they give their commando in chief five stars.
The golden rule with Republicans is whatever they say the opposite tends to be true.
I’ve gotten so much mileage off this high-larious study. It applies to so many situations:
http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/contrib/unskilled.html
Unskilled and Unaware of it: How Difficulties in Recognizing One’s Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments.
Enjoy!
They get it from their god, you know. As far as he’s concerned he’s the only one out there. Fortunately we managed to convince him that the television was trying to usurp his authority, so now he spends most of his time raging at glowing electric boxes and leaves the rest of us alone.
The real question is whether this Frank Newport is stupid beyond belief or in complete denial about his own mental health.
To most people “mental health” means merely not hearing voices or seeing things. Socio-psychopathy is seen as positive. Depression is treated w/ “What’s the matter w/ you? Smile & be happy.” Wife & child abuse is excused by the Bible. And on & on.
As conformist sheep who unthinkingly reflect the values of the larger society, they aren’t aware of how twisted they & their values are from the beginning.
More proof that the left wing is much more tolerant, inclusive & self-aware. Not that we needed any.
I bought the Victor H Mair Translation of the Tao Te Ching because of this specific stanza:
Those words are so very simple, but so true, and I’m reminded of them at least once a day.
Also, I’d like to add, that Republicans are much more likely to be absolutely, completely, 100% not gay.
This study is self-evidentially true. “Mental health” is the first thing on my mind when I read something by Foehammer, or Saul, or Gary Ruppert. Conservative paragons of sanity like Jeff Godlstein and Michelle Malkin light the way for we who toil in the darkness of Bush Derangement Syndrome and other maladies. If ever there was an asylum full of sane people, Free Republic is surely it.
Speaking of social science and overly confident people, Thomas Sowell’s latest column is about some of his experiences as a college professor. And, as expected, the column says a lot more about Sowell’s “dedication” than it does about … whatever point he was woefully trying to make.
Use the link & look at the “related items” on the right sidebar:
Majority of Americans Satisfied With Their Healthcare Plans
No Increase in Public Pressure for Healthcare Reform
U.S. Workers Remain Largely Satisfied With Their Jobs
Strong Relationship Between Income and Mental Health No shit, Sherlock!!
Americans in Good Mental Shape
Most Americans in Good Health This Thanksgiving
OK, paranoids who think something bad will happen to them if they admit to a poll-taker how fucked-up their lives are, or the brain-dead/in denial who can’t admit how screwed they are.
And I’m not going to look, but we can assume these are all “rate your own mental & physical health/job & insurance satisfaction” polls, can’t we?
Then we get this one: Americans’ Satisfaction Lowest Since 1992
But, but, I mean…uhm…
Cognitive dissonance. Can’t live w/ it, can’t survive w/o it.
Don’t forget, reality has a liberal bias. The RWA’s are as self-aware as they are politically honest. If we all wore the blinders that keeps one’s viewpoint so narrow, we could all claim excellent mental health. However, experiencing life with all five senses instead of just the sixth leaves one more vulnerable to the doubts exposed by deeper self-reflection. And observing the world around you makes you realize that there are a lot of really fucked up people around, and very few in “good mental health.” The ones I rate as being in good mental health are definitely not RWA’s.
I think these are the same people when you ask if they are all right, say yes of course as they die of a coronary.
But…LIBERALISM is supposed to be the mental disease! Micheal Savage said so, and I think he knows more about mental disorders and sociopaths than just about anybody I could name. And Ann Coulter agrees with him. So there.
Thank you for digging up the Cornell University study so I didn’t have to.
People rating their own mental health is quite possibly the stupidest thing in the world.
Unbelievable.
I mean, if one believes that he or she is in good mental health, does that make him or her mentally healthy?
Similarly, if one believes that the war in Iraq is going well, does that prevent our boys from getting IED’ed?
If I belileve that right-wing losers are, in fact, losers, does that turn them into losers? Or is there a third variable causing both in parallel?
Science has truely come a long way.
Rather, I should say: “Science (belief)”
4 out of 5 Republican males* report being taller, buffer, tougher, stronger, faster, bigger dicked versions of Jack Bauer.** The picture above shows Frank [Nfurter] Newport demonstrating the God’s honest truth about his pecker (Code Name: Long Tall Sally).
A-C
* 1 out of 5 report being taller, buffer etc, etc versions of Rambo.
**Margin of error +/- 28%
People rating their own mental health is quite possibly the craziest thing in the world.
there.. Fixed that for you.
Of course, the reason I brought up Thomas Sowell is because he’s an economist, and economics is the social science that thinks it’s physics.
I would guess there are more egotistical assholes per capita in economics than in any other academic discipline.
Taken from the reverse angle, wouldn’t you expect the folk who recognize, to varying degrees, the terrible things happening today, things done, in rhetoric if not truth, in our names, things we recognize the inherent injustice of but are effectively as powerless to prevent as the victims, to be a bit less mentally at ease than those stupid, greedy pigfuckers who are glad for all this blood, torture, and childish, blind selfishness?
I get suspicious of people who don’t get depressed now and then, at least.
5 out of 5 Republican males of military service age can type and eat cheetos at the same time.
Crazy?!?
Fuck no, I’m not crazy!!11!!
Why??? Do you think I look crazy??!??
Frank Newport appears to have an exaggerated view of his penis.
They don’t even make subway sammiches that long, but trust a repuglithug to stretch the truth of pepperoni.
Are all these fools just begging to have a big ol’ sammich ‘Shopped in there?
Frankly, Frank looks a little undernourished. If not neurotically emaciated. But he’s just fine. Nothing wrong w/ him.
How sad that the obvious checks on this study were not built into it. At least two other questions should have been asked along with the questions about mental health. The respondents should also have been asked how they rated themselves in intellectual ability and how they rated themselves in looks.
Then the questioner should have administered an IQ test to each respondent and snapped a photograph of each respondent. Then we would have benchmarks for determining the accuracy of each respondent’s assessment of his/her mental health.
Yes Frank! That really is you in the mirror!
No, really!
Bring your fingers together and so will the scary man in the mirror.
In other news, 100% of undiagnosed paranoid schizophrenics report their mental health is just dandy, thanks. Does this make them Republicans? Correlation does not imply causation, but we can’t help but see a causative link here.
Walt said,
December 2, 2007 at 7:40
I’ve gotten so much mileage off this high-larious study. It applies to so many situations:
http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/contrib/unskilled.html
Substitute “I drank the Kool-Aid™” for “I wore the juice”. That does explain the wingnuts commonly parodied on this blog, does it not?
The fact is, BDS is the most wide ranging mental illness today. It makes people insane and vote against their own interests. Here in the heartland, we know who our C in C is and respect him, we know why are troops are doing an awesome job, and know that God has a special plan for us, unlike you coastal elitists. We are stable, patriotic, unbiased and far more tolerant than left wing idiots who hate Bush and the free market.
Ruppert, heal thyself!
I would guess there are more egotistical assholes per capita in economics than in any other academic discipline.
I have no doubt of this whatsoever. I’ve met a-holes in every field but, damn, if you want to find your school’s Ayn Rand cultist, look in the economics department first…
“Here in the heartland, we know who our C in C is and respect him,”
Unless you have chevrons on your shoulders, you don’t have a Commander in Chief.
Pet peeve of mine.
I’m sure that if you asked many creationists if they understood the origins of life better than evolutionary scientists, they would no doubt rate themselves highly as well.
But then, this is the country where “Reaganomics” is considered an acceptable variant of economics and denotes some sort of success people would want to emulate.
I think (I am the emperor Napoleon), therefore I am (the emperor Napoleon).
Wow! It works!
Isn’t “Reaganomics” basically Feudalism with fewer rats?
Just like I told the guy on the phone, if I wasn’t sane why did they make me Emperor of the Multiverse? Duh!
Isn’t “Reaganomics” basically Feudalism with fewer rats?
Yes, except for the part about the rats.
You know on a second reading I do believe Frank actually called your ‘typical Repubicans’, liars.
Republicans are significantly more likely than Democrats or independents to rate their mental health as excellent, according to data from the last four November Gallup Health and Healthcare polls.
or “When we asked, most Republicans replied, ‘yep I’m fit as a fiddle!'”.
No matter what…
This relationship between party identification and reports of excellent mental health persists…
Rich or Poor, male or female, a Republican will insist they’re is nothing wrong with way they think, feel, and behave.
But the key finding of the analyses presented here…”
“IF we were to let your ‘Typical Repubican’ interpret the data, the analysis would be:”
The reason the relationship exists between being a Republican and more positive mental health is unknown, and one cannot say whether something about being a Republican causes a person to be more mentally healthy, or whether something about being mentally healthy causes a person to choose to become a Republican
but for everyone NOT a Republican the answer is clearly, “… or some third variable is responsible for causing both to be parallel.)”
Certainly got give credit to Frank Newport for being a savvy pollster!
Well, to be fair, we’re talking about rats that maintain an upright stance here.
“I would guess there are more egotistical assholes per capita in economics than in any other academic discipline.”
Uh, what was Duncan Black’s phd again?
I would guess there are more egotistical assholes per capita in economics than in any other academic discipline.
The second place to go is to high level healthcare administrators. I worked for a residential architect that did a lot of work for these guys and they were absolute dicks every time; believed that the world owed them special treatment. Always republicans, and always the picture of self-diagnosed good mental health.
“…one cannot say whether something about being a Republican causes a person to be more mentally healthy, or whether something about being mentally healthy causes a person to choose to become a Republican…”
I have neither the time nor scientific background to figure out who’s right.
The fact is, you liberals are moonbat idiots while I am smart, hardworking, loyal and support USA and the troops. I don’t know why you folks even stay alive, since you hate life so much.
Uh, what was Duncan Black’s phd again?
My undergradumacate degree was in econ. Of course, I had the good sense to quit there. In Mr. Black’s defence, I will point out that Paul Krugman is also a Phd in Economics, and furthermore, Paul Krugman roxxorz!1!.
I self-report that I am incredibly wealthy and better looking than that Jolie woman, a better skier than Bodie Miller, better in the sack than any number of pron stars, clearer than the clearest scientologist, and a life-long republican*.
* some of thesse allegations may be slightly exaggerated upon closer inspection, and I’d rather eat shit and live than be a republican.
So we now have scientific proof of what we already knew, Republicans are clearly delusional.
Several years back administrators at my college decided that student-perception surveys should be the cornerstone of our assessment cycle. Shoulda seen the shock, shock! among the deans, VPs and trustees when comparative analysis eventually showed what the faculty had predicted ahead of time: an inverse relationship between perception of skill/knowledge and true skill/knowledge. ‘Course, unlike this Gallup fella, they actually, y’know, looked at the comparative analysis and adjusted their level of confidence in self-reporting.
Also, Newport has sort of a Vulcan David Bowie thing going on, doesn’t he?
To me, Newport’s face looks just like Malcolm McDowell’s in the very last scene from A Clockwork Orange, just before he slips into the deviant sexual fantasy. All he needs is longer hair and a neck brace.
Hey Gary, Saul, Whatever.
You sir are no Gary Ruppert.
This is the Gary Ruppert we knew and loved:
Later …
Stop taking his name in vain.
Shorter Self-Confident Self-Accessors: We wouldn’t recognize the Clue Bus if it ran us over. Twice.
ignorance is bliss.
If we assume that people’s subjective, self-reported assessments of their own mental health are the same thing as actual, objective data on mental health
That reminds me of the surveys that show Rush Limbaugh listeners are better-informed than others–but when tested on current events, they are actually the least well-informed.
Whoops, I see someone already made that point.
Also, if you haven’t read “The Authoritarians”, do so. It’s absolutely fascinating.
Substitute “I drank the Kool-Aid™” for “I wore the juice”. That does explain the wingnuts commonly parodied on this blog, does it not?
IT WAS FLAVOR AID!!!!
Notorious P.A.T., you can substitute FAUX News viewers for Rush Limbaugh listeners, and remain completely correct.
These people enjoy being lied to, and the liars profit immensely in the process.
In other words: Republicans are crazy, they’re just the last to know?
Uh, what was Duncan Black’s phd again?
Ask him if most of his colleagues are assholes.
I dare ya!
And then ask Krugman, while you’re at it.
And then ask Thomas Freidman about his own mental health.
I dunno, Hoosier. Duncan may not have a problem with the question. After all, I have no problem acknowledging that many, many people with advanced degrees in English are pedantic, self-absorbed, unjustifiably snobbish curmudgeons.
I’m not one of those, of course, but many in my field are . . .
Well, I dunno about economists, but after reading Pharyngula for a while, I’ve kind of gotten the impression that a fair number of engineers are jerks. There seems to be some sort of relationship between engineering and noisy advocacy of creationism, though I have no clue why that should be.
I’ve kind of gotten the impression that a fair number of engineers are jerks.
Need one say more than
StevenStephen Den Beste?And this might be a good time to mention that the most annoying group of folks I’ve personally dealt with in meatspace was made up of clinical psych grad students when I was a grad student in psych of personality (that is, academic, not clinical, psych). Jesus, I have never met such hypercompetitive, condescending assholes in my life; you haven’t lived until you’ve seen a class full of these types compete to see who can be the most “sensitive.”
If anybody here ever needs therapy, I wholeheartedly recommend a licensed clinical social worker.
Please. I’m begging you.
Mortician,
I screwed up the tags on the quote about Duncan Black. That should have been in blockquotes. I am pretty confident that Black would say, “yeppers, I knew a LOT of assholes in the econ department.”
And I could talk about the handful of wingnut history students, and their shallow, ideology-driven beliefs, that I knew in grad school..
RandomObserver said,
People rating their own mental health is quite possibly the stupidest thing in the world.
I thought it was a very interesting and worthwhile survey; it just proves something completely different than what the wingnuts think it did.
No way, no way, no way, I’ve finally met real live conservatives, and I’m still in full revolt against them. Believing that the world is only 6000 years old is not sane. Breaking my CDs swiped by their teen-ager and sending him to a “re-education camp” is NOT sane. I moved to the suburbs and met the real deal, and I know for sure, they are not sane. People who move when their house isn’t yet sold just because I put up a rainbow flag, that is NOT sane. OK, panic mode clearing up.
Told you guys I’m a fucking refugee. I’m still freaked out.
Hey Hoosier, are you in Indianapolis? My neighborhood there was so sane, I kind of miss it. No barbecue, but I still miss it.
I’ve kind of gotten the impression that a fair number of engineers are jerks.
I’m an engineer, and I won’t deny this. In fact, I’d estimate the jerk proportion among engineers to be even higher than among economics grads, but my sampling is skewed since I know lots of engineers and very few economists.
It seems there’s been a trend among wingnut engineers lately to consider themselves “scientists.” Which is semi-bullshit; most engineers do apply principles derived from actual science, but are not really in the hypothesize-test-refine-peer review-publish sort of cycle that defines real scientists. The ‘nut ones just want to have some sort of credibility for claiming that global warming is fake or that abortion causes cancer or whatever.
Which is
semi-bullshit;There, fixed my own typo.
I haven’t lived in Indiana for some time, although I was there visiting the week before Thanksgiving. And I never lived in Indy. I lived in that there Heartland the wingnuts are always talking about as if they know something about it. I grew up in a town of 2000 people not too far from Muncie.
I now live somewhere far worse, as conservative bastions go. Northern Los Angeles County. It’s like Springfield – from the Simpsons – without the charm. My boss calls the local paper Fox News West. They’re making a big deal about Ben Stein speaking to the Chamber of Commerce.
Other visitors in the last year? Giuliani, Zell Miller, Schwarzenegger, Chuck Yaeger.
(On the positive side, Jane Russell was here for a Senior Expo.)
As a mental health professional who works with very sick, deeply disturbed people on a daily basis, I can assure you that very often the sickest people don’t think they’re sick at all. They need to be invested in the idea that they are healthy and being persecuted for the sake of their own flimsy ego structure.
Well, there ya go. Bob Hopeless just explained the underlying issue for all wingers.
I would tend to agree with He who is without Hope above. I spent a decade and a half being evaluated by court order, and they kept saying that I was sick. But then the District Attorneys would want to incarcerate me, nobody ever seriously suggested treatment.
As for me, I knew they were lying. Hell, babe, there was nothing wrong with me. I honestly couldn’t understand why all this shit kept happening to me? I very seldom felt genuinely persecuted, except when I’d stay in one place for too long and local law enforcement would “get to know” me. Then it was stop and search, cuff at gunpoint, stop and question, all the fucking time.
Of course, from here I can see that it was my behavior that was creating all the problems, and I couldn’t control the behavior without a lot of help. But that’s from here, with the benefit of of fifteen years of therapy. Back then I mostly figured it was just bad luck, along with the assumption that alot of this kind of thing happened to everybody…
mikey
I did get told by a former neighbor who went to Bob Jones University that I needed “professional help” just because I asked for at least an apology for my destroyed CDs-aka-“secular degenerate trash”. I may be a little wacky, but I didn’t think asking for merely an apology was out of line, even though I really wish worse on anyone who’d destroy work by Bauhaus, Depeche Mode, and Jimi “that horrible black man from the 60s” Hendrix. Actually, everyone I know agreed, they just were smart enough to not move this far out into the suburbs.
Hoosier, ahhh, gotcha. Dang, sorry about your locals!
Dude, I WISH I was in Indianapolis!
Well, I dunno about economists, but after reading Pharyngula for a while, I’ve kind of gotten the impression that a fair number of engineers are jerks.
I have a graduate degree in economics, and I once almost married an engineer, which puts me in the position to say that engineers are marginally worse, but in their defense, as a group they also tend to be more productive than economists.
In grad school I worked as night desk manager of a cheap motel. The on-site manager was a frightening specimen with a confederate flag and a permanent scowl. The night I called the cops to rescue a brown person who had the nerve to try to get a room and was therefore trapped behind the ice-machine fence by the two trained-to-kill pit bulls my manager had sicced on him, she (the manager) stood in the parking lot screaming at the cops that I was “some kinda psychology!” Good times, good times.
Having worked closely wtih civil engineers for about 10 years (thankfully, no longer) I can say that bout 80 to 90% seem to have arrested their social development to a level equal to that of a 13 year old male.
The only economists I’ve known were pretty bright, and one was the toughest and most interesting lecturer I had as an undergrad. I loved his classes since they were lively and thoughtful, but I especially loved it when the business majors’ heads exploded over his presenting the economic model of Marxism for a day as a comparison with capitalism. The very fact that he was even talking about that eeeeeeevil Marx was enough to make the head of the business major’s club nearly have a stroke with anger. It was hilarious.
And poor Mr. Skink, I am sorry for your forced association with Jonesians; my sister is one and made 2 of her 3 kids go there (one joined the military in order to avoid BJU). The level of moral certitude with which these supposed christians harshly judge everyone and everything around them is beyond exasperating; it’s a forced tour of the willful delusion these fuckwits practice on a daily basis. They refuse to listen/view/read any news source that does not fit their defined world view, so they really are underinformed and overly confident of their POV.
Bob Jones University was one of my better ideas.
Well, I live/work in two of the more peculiar aspects of the left side of the spectrum – my home community’s voting record in the last several elections was 90% Democratic, but there’s a deeply buried yet strong streak of pot-smoking liberatianism around here, coupled with an aging hippie’s firm distrust of authority, and a strong property-rights advocacy. Oh, and New Age ecumenical spirituality.
I work in a community that’s fondly known as The People’s Republic of __________, very charitable, providing many human and social services, yet some of the most active of citizens have a strong vein of puritanism that probably hearkens back to its origins as a Methodist resort camp; that has now morphed into a kind of eco-nazi self-righteousness. Combine that with great wealth, cutting-edge creative businesses, and the entertainment industry, and you have one big kettle of Weird.
Yet it’s a nice place to live and work.
I can say that bout 80 to 90% seem to have arrested their social development to a level equal to that of a 13 year old male.
This is true of software / electrical engineers too – and worse, they’re like 13 year old males who have just discovered Ayn Rand.
My own development was arrested, dragged back to the station, and had seven kinds of hell beaten out of it too. But not at the age of 13; I’m stuck at 11. I think it makes me better-natured than most, but I leave it up to people who meet me to decide.
I admit, my evaluation of economists is based on readings by and about Thomas Sowell and a number of other prominent nitwits (that came out of the Chicago School), a number of very unpleasant personal dealings with neocon economics students when I was on the staff of a college newspaper, and a friend contemplating economics as a major who took several economics classes and made fun of his professors, some of whom got very mad if he disputed their rote lecturing with questions from his own unofficial readings. (My friend did not pursue the economics major. He dropped out of college for very compelling physical reasons.)
The economics students who pestered me at the paper started every discussion with “you liberal arts students just don’t understand economics as is clear from the liberal bent of your newspaper. I have written a column that you should print to show why everyone should be conservative” and the column would be lame, rehashed Thomas Sowell talking points, so full of logical fallacies that the validity of the conclusions and the intellectual honesty of the methodology were irrelevant. I was opinion editor for a year and we had several of these nobs from the economics department coming in to the office, or e-mailing columns and comments, from time to time, and I could not believe how stupid they were. If they came to the office, they never stuck around to listen to my critique of their columns, and I don’t recall any of them ever responding to my (usually brief) e-mails.
No other academic department was even close to being as well-represented in the crank file. Place that next to the arrogant (with so little talent to back it up) assholishness of Thomas Sowell, and I have a very low opinion of your average economist.
Krugman is WAY above average. He redeems economists the way Kurt Vonnegut redeemed Hoosiers.
Nah, it’s weird. I grew up in a family of liberal Democrats. I grew up half the time in a guitar studio, a lot around artists, lots of friends of the family who were gay before I even knew what being gay meant, just never knew that other world. Then we moved to Kansas right in time for me to move to Lawrence for college, so I ended up there forever, and Lawrence is pretty darned liberal too. My neighborhood in Indy was very in-town and liberal. I never knew any conservatives other than reading them in newspapers.
When I started my blog, I was just ranting against people I’d always been around. The extremists from my own world, and there are enough, especially from my Lawrence years, to have given me plenty of fodder. Them and their reaction to 9/11. But the “fans” I ended up with, well, their attitudes and worldview once I realized what it truly was, is not something I can accept. That and then meeting these people outside of blog-world who are much more adamant and in-your-face about certain issues. After they made it clear what they stood for (and against, more often than not), I just freaked. Wanted no part of it. Still don’t.
It is weird though, the isolation of being a stay-at-home Mom, which is what sort of led to it all. Anyway, I’ll write my memoirs of blog-world someday.
Well you know, Skink, the tail ends of each side of the curve can be strange places. I will say though that the average out there leftist is a lot less dangerous to me and mine than the average neocon warmongering gay-hater. Maybe it’s just me…
G, Fremont went to hell once they moved the ‘Dobos (those who work for Adobe) in. It was hard to absorb so many self-righteous paragons of self-entitlement, though of course their money is green. I blame Suzi Berke, who once boasted that she screwed over anybody who did business with her. It remains to be seen if those tactics will work with PCC, who have some muscle of their own.
Otoh, Brouwers is a fine place to get great Belgian-style ales. Was that you there last night with those sodden Brits? (My favorite kind.)
I don’t think engineers are as wacky as economists. At least, the engineers I’ve known, who were mostly electronic and software, with a few environmentals thrown in.
Okay, arrested development in some senses, but that’s kind of endearing. I mean, the kind of guys who get so much fun out of geeky toys, and are maybe a little socially backward, but generally harmless, and mostly completely ignorant of politics.
But that’s down here. And I come from maths, which has so far spawned more than its fair share of murderous nutcases (the Unabomber was an American one, but we had several in my own home town).
Is it that mathematics attracts the already-weird, or is it the maths that makes them go completely and quietly berko? Correlation is not causation, and yet…
..Is it just me, or does it sound like the author of “The Authoritarians” is just pointing out how each of his classes have a, perhaps over the average, number of self- righteous assholes? And not necessarily republicans or right- wing authoritarians? ..
I mean, you would expect people who are convinced they are certain of themselves, and also completely stupid, to fall for the current “party of strong” and so on. But is it because they’re authoritarians? I’m not completely convinced..
I figure engineers tend to be creationists because they engineer stuff. They design things, more or less intelligently.
maybe a little socially backward, but generally harmless, and mostly completely ignorant of politics. … But that’s down here.
I’d agree it could be regional – I’m from the rightiest of right-wing states in the U.S., which is also completely dominated by a very patriarchal / authoritarian religion. Many of the engineers around here have that local style; they tend much more toward the openly Republican rather than the Libertarian that seems to be common in the rest of the union.
Is it that mathematics attracts the already-weird, or is it the maths that makes them go completely and quietly berko?
Both, I think, but I’d lean toward the former. My brother’s a math geek and has been an oddball for all of his 42 years (he was even born butt-first, Mom says). The other math wizards I know are mostly lifelong weirdos too.
String–well, I know the extremists from the regular folks. Never had a problem seeing that. I honestly think that we’ve moved a little past the idea of the “either side” mentality though. We’re more trapped in it. Plenty of people gravitated toward certain right-wing pundits after 9/11, but it was all related to terrorism. Most of these people really don’t go for the intolerance spewed by those on the far-right. Now that things have played out a bit more and the self-identified right-wing pundits and writers are including their social attitudes into the mix they’ll increasingly be seen as intolerant or extremist from now on I think. Just my prediction.
But then I like watching the swirl of thoughts and emotions involved in politics and socio-political waves. But yes, frankly, anyone who’d just as soon throw either me (on racial grounds) or friends and family (race or being LGBT) can take the tall end and some instructions on where to shove it as far as I’m concerned.
Homosexuals are detestable sinners Lex its time you realized it.
For condescending assholes see sendahole.com.
G, Fremont went to hell once they moved the ‘Dobos (those who work for Adobe) in. ….Otoh, Brouwers is a fine place to get great Belgian-style ales. Was that you there last night with those sodden Brits?
My apologies, r. It is my shame to admit that I’ve lived in two regions where “The People’s Republic of _________” is a significant phrase.
No, I never lived in Fremont, but spent some fine times there in the 80’s and early 90’s. When I lived in Seattle, my stomping grounds was Capitol Hill and, later the CD (or, as realtors called it in the heady days of the early 90’s, “West Madrona.”).
The “Peoples’ Republic” I referred to is in Southern California. For you Raymond Chandler afficionados, it was his Bay City. It’s also the place Harry Shearer calls “The Home of the Homeless.”
Oh, and it’s been awhile since I’ve drunk with sodden Brits, mores the pity. I can no longer remember the names of the taverns I hung out at in Seattle – isn’t that sad? Some are long gone, such as the Blue Moon. Spent many a night in Ernie Steele’s on Broadway, too – when it was really Ernie Steele’s, that is. Not the trendy retro joint it’s become now.
There was a great tavern up a little north of Fremont proper, I can’t recall the name……
Oh, it’s the Buckaroo.
Ah madam Skink, I knew you knew that, just yanking your chain a tiny bit. And I do hope you are right about people starting to see the winger gasbags as intolerant and extremist from now on, though I doubt that a core group of the wingiest wingnuts will ever stray too far from the fold (or asylum).
The speaking in tongues story up thread should go a long ways towards making the average person wonder “what the..” Good, good, more of that please, nothing like the introduction of bright light into a cockroach-infested kitchen. Funny how in the case above it is the roaches that are turning on the lights.
g, if your knowledge of Seattle is as sketchy as your knowledge of the Blue Moon I’d have to doubt you were really there at all. The Blue Moon is still there, having successfully fought off the efforts of the city to institute nanny-state-style restrictions. How could you live there and not know that? I call shenanigans.
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Altemeyer does point out in the introduction of his book that the term “right-wing authoritarians” is definitely not synonymous with political notions of “right” and “left”. It is a state of mind, not an ideology, in this context. Which is appropriate, since he’s a psychologist and not a political theorist. So, yeah, it’s easy enough to find the RWA personality type among any particular political group.
Bob Altemeyer’s book is available for free download in pdf here:
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
Can’t recommend it enough.
So, yeah, it’s easy enough to find the RWA personality type among any particular political group.
Indeed. There are a couple of lefty blogs I won’t read any more because this type of commenter has infested all the threads – spouting paranoid follower-crap with a Democratic rather than Republican flavor. I call them “bluenecks”.
I recall seeing a book about this once. It was called “I’m OK, You Suck.”
Where the fuck is The Editors? I need my modern-political-commentary-delivered-as-a-dinosaur-or-helicopter fix!