Just wait. He’ll run for President in 2012.

Somewhat O/T, but is there a specific reason wingers go nuts at the mention of Paul Krugman? I mean, I know the general reasons–he writes for the New York Times and Liberal Commie Nazi Terrorist Propaganda Outfit, he points out that supply-side economics is, at best, a hoax, etc.–but is there something in particular he did that makes them hate him above all the other viable candidates?

but is there something in particular he did that makes them hate him above all the other viable candidates?

Unlike Brooks, Freidman, Tierney and Dowd, he’s not a toady, a sycophant, or a hypocrite. Maybe they sense that on some animal level, and hate him for it?

Who cares what that goatf***er Tom DeLay says?

“they’re not getting it out of this Republican leadership. … The leadership just isn’t getting it.”

…maybe if they cruised the stalls at Union Station they’d get some. They could get tips from Larry Craig!

How does “I’d like to bitch-slap him” fall under the category of “poking fun”?

I just saw Krugman speak in Austin last week, Im pretty sure he could take DeLay.

Somewhat O/T, but is there a specific reason wingers go nuts at the mention of Paul Krugman?

Same reason Ann Althouse and Ace o’ Spades hate Glenn Greenwald, because he’s smart and tells the truth. Makes wingnuts go all berserker.

“AAAAAAAAHHH!!! MELLLLLLTING!!”

Principle Blackman:

Yes.

They hate him because the truth has a known liberal bias, and Delay is nutzoid about that kind of thing.

Plus, he’s smarter than they are, which feeds into the Wingnuttian paradigm of us “liberals” thinking we’re smarter than they are.

(Gee, where would we ever get that idea? I blame THIS blog!)

“Playing for the other team”? Did they just suggest that civility makes you a sissy? No wonder he’s desperate to make “bitch-slap” threats.

And re the “bitch-slap” thing, it is my most sincere desire that Tom never gets laid again. I may start folding cranes so I can make that wish.

goatf***er

Goatfinker?
Goatfiller?
Goatfolder?

Can’t be.

Goatfinger?

They hate him because the truth has a known liberal bias, and Delay is nutzoid about that kind of thing.

That (and what atheist et al have said) is it. I suspect it’s also that Krugman was being an outspoken non-stupid when the real hate-imprinting was going on, back in ’02 and ’03 – correct me if I’m wrong. That was the time when the wingnuts were ordered to hate France, then Germany, then all of Old Europe, then everybody else who agreed with any of them, then everybody else who didn’t disagree enough, etc.

Among wingnuts, I imagine it’s still de rigeur to hate the French even if they don’t remember why.

…is there something in particular he did that makes them hate him above all the other viable candidates?

It’s probably partly frustration. For years they’ve tried desperately hard to discredit or intimidate him, and they’ve never come close. And, like the other guys said, he’s smart and articulate.

Interestingly, Krugman was not seen as especially liberal until after Bush took office. There’s a good article on him here.

A friend of someone who once met Robert Novak told me his cousin’s sister-in-law had seen Tom Delay suck the dicks of several prominent conservative religious figures, in costume as Ted Kennedy.

I’m serious.

Uhoh. Ann Althouse has been mentioned by TRex.

Expect more drunken vlogs legal threats to follow.

Goatfister.

I’m sorry I said that but there it is.

My wish for Tom is that someday he has a little peek at the cold, vast, timeless emptiness of the other side. He really does think there’s a comfy barcalounger and an eternity of servants and entertainment waiting for him there.

GOOOOOOOOOOOAT FIINNNNNNNNNNNNNGERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

I suspect my esteemed colleague Mr Rex is correct, and that goatf***er DeLay will be one of the many True Believers who will run in 2012, arguing that the GOP was pummelled in 2008 because the nominee Wasn’t! Conservative! Enough!

Gotta admire the little goatf***er, getting in on the 2008 blame game early.

For years they’ve tried desperately hard to discredit or intimidate him, and they’ve never come close.

But over at Blogs for Bush…erm, I mean Blogs for Great Success!, they always refer to him as a “discredited economist.” And they wouldn’t call him discredited if they hadn’t, like, thoroughly discredited him, right? They wouldn’t ever confuse their inner monologue with objective reality, would they? Not that group of well-adjusted people!

“So, Goatfinger, I suppose you expect me to talk…”

“No, Mr Bond, I expect you to DIE!!! Bgnah-AH-AH!! NAAAAAH!!”

Let’s not forget another example of DeLay’s Godliness:

“I said a little prayer before I actually did the fingerprint thing, and the picture. And my prayer was basically: ‘Let people see Christ through me. And let me smile.’ […]

He’s kinda like a cartoon character, isn’t he?

AHA! AH-HAHAHAHAHAH! HA! Haha. Ha. Hem.

Tom Delay is a goat-effing slut-whore power-c**t of epic proportions.

You really don’t need to know anything else.

Tom Delay is a great American leader and a patriot who tells it as it is. Too bad he isn’t running for President, I would vote for him in a heartbeat.

Too bad that the ‘like it is’ that Tom talks about sucks donkey doo.

I’ll take Delay’s bitch-slap and raise him a kick in his nuts !

…and favorite conservative punching bag — Paul Krugman

Actually, they hate him because he’s not a punching bag. Punching bags don’t hit back. As evidence, I submit the Krug’s takedown of David Brooks from last week.

I saw Tom Delay personally, no shit, tell Chris Matthews how much respect he had for Barney Frank.

I can’t believe that would play well with Delay’s base.

You’re slipping, Saul.

First comes “shalom,”
then comes “genltemen,”
then comes trolling till you pull your putamen.

Republicans need a new Contract with America for 2008. If they pledge to govern by the same Conservative principles that they governed with after the Gingrich Revolution of 1994 the Republicans will take both the Presidency and both Houses of Congress.

I’d enjoy watching Tom Delay get the crap beaten out of him by an angry gay woman.

Pay-Per-View material, I’m not kidding.

I wonder if the GOP’s new contract would include anything about having their Press Secretary lie about the involvement of the top 5 governmental leaders’ exposing a CIA agent who was working on IraNian nukes.

That’s an “N” for retards. They’re the ones we haven’t bombed yet.

If I were Tom Delay I’d start wearing a cup.

You don’t need a cup if you’ve had your nuts removed. Duh.

If I were looking at a stretch in the pen, I’d shut up about bitches.

Sold to the butcher, rather.

Uh, dude…they DID govern by those principles. That’s why the country is a mess. People are wise to so-called GOP “principles” now. That’s why your party is now largely known for its incompetence and goatf***ing. I don’t think drawing attention to goatf***ers of old, like Gingrich, is really the route you want to take. But hey, what do I know? I’m just a dumbass who thought Bush wouldn’t be a very good “president,” and who thought the Iraq War was kind of a bad idea. So don’t listen to me. Listen to your Wise Council of Sage Goatf***ers. That’s worked great for you guys so far.

If I were Tom Delay, I’d start wearing a Kryptonite butt-plug.

The new Contract with America should pledge these things.

1. Secure our borders.

2. Declare English the National language.

3. Defend and promote Traditional American Values.

4. Abolish the IRS and replace the income tax with a national sales tax.

5. Health Care Reform using the free market and individual choice.

6. Social Security Reform but creating personal private accounts.

7.Balance the Federal Budget.

8. Aggressively fight and win the war on terror.

That Contract with America would be unbeatable!

Romney for POTUS!

Because the evangelicals will love them some Mormon detail as it comes out during the endless general election season we’re faced with.

Some say, cleter, that I’m just a provincial rural Midwesterner with a terminal case of the dumb-ass, but I know a lot of GOP voters who have had it up to their necks with this bunch.

Even with HRC, it should be a pretty fun election night, especially if my own personal prediction comes true and the economy is in the crapper by Nov. ’08.

They already had their chance to do all those things, numbnuts. They ran the entire show for 6 years and didn’t do shit. They’re done.

But over at Blogs for Bush…erm, I mean Blogs for Great Success!, they always refer to him as a “discredited economist.” And they wouldn’t call him discredited if they hadn’t, like, thoroughly discredited him, right? They wouldn’t ever confuse their inner monologue with objective reality, would they? Not that group of well-adjusted people!

I didn’t know that.

Well, in that case Krugman ain’t shit. He may as well just move into a dumpster right now and get it over with. When you’ve lost the respect of Mark Noonan, you’ve lost it all.

Our party needs a Great Leader to actively promote and articulate those Conservative principles to the American People. A man like Fred Thompson or Tom Tancredo.

Precisely, tb. They had 6 YEARS worth of absolute power, and they couldn’t do anything but make their own prophecy come true: Government isn’t the solution to problems, it IS the problem.

I can’t imagine less than 10 House seats and 4 in the Senate. And that’ assuming HILLARY will be the nominee.

If Obama or Edwards is the candidate, and provided the vaunted Clinton machine won’t take their ball and go home, it could be a headline-grabbing landslide.

The only wild card is a terrorist attack, which no doubt Cheney is enabling as I type. They’re evil, but they’re not stupid.

saul,
before we start talking new contract, there are some things we need to settle from the old one. Have your people call my people and we can work out something. I’d hate this thing to turn ugly.
Cheers!

Tancredo for POTUS! A true leader, in every sense of the racist word!

BTW, what are his policies on other stuff?

Paul Krugman: “I’d like to bitch-slap him.”
I think we’ve got a video of an RNC slap fest somewhere.
Tom Delay Bitch Slap Party

Tom Delay has that far away goofy looking grin on his face that makes me think his IQ is hovering right around 85 or so.

I see Fred “Sleepy” Thompson has dropped to half Paul’s polls in NH, where people tend to pay attention.

Funniest poll number I’d seen in months.

John O.
Explain to me this thing that the South evangelicals have with Mormons. Isn’t it the same Jesus, we are talking here? Can the difference in packaging be so important to them? I mean, sure you may like silver iPods better than white iPods, but if you get white iPod from Santa would you send it back? That’s just puzzling…

Tom Tancredo’s other policies.

1. A Human Life Amendment to the Constitution banning both abortion and euthanasia.

2. A Federal Constitutional Amendment banning same sex marriage.

3. Abolish the IRS and replace the income tax with a national sales tax.

4. Prevent Iran from developing nukes.

5. Eventual regime change in Iran by supporting Secular Democratic dissidents inside Iran.

Go to http://www.ontheissues.org and read Tancredo’s voting record.

I’ll bet that in the end saul will secretly for Hillary, if only to spare what is left of his poor abused head from having to defend the president for another four years.

Thats what you think about, sometimes late at night, eh saul? Hillary Clinton with allthe power. Yeah, look at her, she’s wearing thigh high Condi boots and carrying a big thick riding crop… she doesn’t give a shit about family values. Go on, pull that lever, bad boy, you know how good it feels to be real bad… wait, what am I saying, saul isn’t old enough to vote.

The fact is, Tom Delay is far more moral than any liberal, and less biased about reality and the truth. Truth to liberals is like holy water to vampires, and also, you liberals must admit that God does not like you. He likes us, here, in the heartland.

Tom Tancredo’s other policies.

1. A Human Life Amendment to the Constitution banning both abortion and euthanasia.

2. A Federal Constitutional Amendment banning same sex marriage.

3. Abolish the IRS and replace the income tax with a national sales tax.

4. Prevent Iran from developing nukes.

5. Eventual regime change in Iran by supporting Secular Democratic dissidents inside Iran.

1. No beaners. That’s it.

Corrected.

Tom Delay has that far away goofy looking grin on his face that makes me think his IQ is hovering right around 85 or so.

I think that’s his mug shot. Seriously.

A couple years ago, around the time the he was indicted, the Austin Chronicle quoted some local politico describing DeLay’s demeanor during a press conference: “He was grinnin’ like a possum eating shit”

The fact is that stopping illegal immigration is the most decisive issue of our times.

You wish.

AAAaarrrrrgggghhhh.

The volume of pie consumption has now officially surpassed the volume of teh snark.

I guess I’ll just mosey along now…

mikey

Krassen, I’m a very devout JohnOist, so I can’t claim, nor will I, any expertise in the matter.

I just hear tell in evangelical circles that they find Mormonism um…er…cultish, to put it mildly. And in some cases even anti-Jesus, for some reason.

Plus, the whole religion is barely 200 years old. You aren’t going to get any street cred amongst the God-people with that kind of record.

Saul, ya gonna vote for Romney if he’s the nominee?

Ah, never mind.

So do we have any SANE Christian fundamentalists out here who can enlighten us?

mikey, I’m sorry again.

I feel like the boredom, which I share, is all my fault.

It’s hard to make these morons funny in the end. Which is why I come here, but beating a dead post horse only has so much longevity.

Saul said,

The new Contract with America should pledge these things.

Chickenhawk cowards should STFU.

So do we have any SANE Christian fundamentalists out here who can enlighten us?

I think that’s called a contradiction in terms.

I absolutely would vote for Mitt Romney if he was my party’s nominee. Mormons have been called the African Americans of the Republican Party because 90% of them vote Republican in every election. In Utah a very solidly Republican stronghold Mormons make up 62% of the population. In the 2004 Presidential election Bush carried Utah by 72% of the vote. The highest margin of any state. The Mormons are a very loyal Republican voting bloc we need them.

At least some Christian fundamentalists keep it to themselves, to their credit, confident in the understanding that the rest of us are going to Hell.

Sure, it a rather generous version of “sane,” but ya go wit’ what ya got.

I feel like the boredom, which I share, is all my fault.

Some days all you can do is write about kicking people in the nuts. That’s just the way it is.

Thanks, Saul.

*yawn* Surprising, honest. Wait ’til he makes you wear special underwear.

*YAWN*

I’ve been to Utah a number of times. Each time, I’ve said to myself: Damn, look at all the African Americans!

I’ll be going home to D.C. for Thanksgiving, and I’ll be wondering why D.C. can’t be more like Salt Lake City.

So okay, show of hands: Who wants to bitch-slap Tom “Bug-man” DeLay into the next lifetime?

Some people just never do fucking disappear already like they should, as they would if they had any sense of self-worth whatsoever. (Newt Gingrich also comes to mind.) The chapter in Al Franken’s last book about DeLay’s shenanigans in the Mariana Islands alone is enough to make any actual sentient being never want to hear this loathesome creature’s name again, let alone any expression of anything his reptilian brain may conceive of.

“I said a little prayer before I actually did the fingerprint thing” Delay quoted from the bible, too, after the tsunami. Real class.

You know one question I always like to ask the God-people?

If you’re so sure we’re going to get it bad when we die, us semi-to-non believers, why are you so worried about us while we’re all alive?

Could it be your convictions are lighter than they seem? Isn’t it all going to be dealt with in The End?

Or are you not REALLY sure, so have to hedge your bets here on Earth?

Or was it Gingrich?

You know, a lot of these fundamentalists with the alcoholic backstories (and not just some twelve-martini-drinking daughter-ignorer, but some really awful stuff) made me think “oh well, I suppose if it’s a choice between trying to smoke a fabric softener sheet or being an annoying religious guy at least he’s just an annoying religious guy”. But I really think the world would be a slightly better place if The Hammer had just continued to be some Bukowski character instead of getting his shit together and becoming a right-wing politician.

What I’m sayin’ is that if I was as sure as the God-people like Delay, and Saul, I wouldn’t get all red-assed about anything these anti-God Satanist people were doing now, since the world death rate is holding steady at 100%.

I understand that you would vote for Mitt Romney as president, saul, but the question is, is he going to burn in hell for all eternity? Oh, I forgot, you referred all theology questions to:

http://christiananswers.net/evangelism/beliefs/mormonism.html

In case you don’t already know I am a Jewish Rabbi. My Congregation calls me Rabbi Saul.

Saul isn’t religious; he’s probably not even a conservative. He’s pretty obviously just a kid fucking around. Anyone trying to engage him is probably arguing with a 15-year-old.

Check out http://www.ontheissues.org/Tom_Tancredo.htm

But I will say this for him – he sure does love that pie.

OT, but I hope everyone caught Goldstain minion Dan Collins’ epic meltdown over the last couple of days. Basically he took a bunch of meds and googled some woman he hasn’t seen in 25 years, then posted her personal information and called her a drunken whore on PW. When someone dared object he went screaming apeshit, posting hundreds of incoherent comments at tbogg’s, John Swift’s and elsewhere. I’m surprised there hasn’t been any mention of it on SN, because it was right up there with freakouts past by Tacitus, Ace, and Goldstain himself.

Whoa, Saul! Doesn’t that mean you reject the whole “Jesus as Savior” thing out of hand?

It’s a serious question. I’m not a big fan of organized religion, except as it relates to the Power of Mythology.

I’ll be back in a bit nature suddenly calls!

I don’t know, man. I think a lot of them are genuinely worried that by not living up to their beliefs, you’re screwing yourself over. I also think that a lot of them are genuinely looking forward to all the Wicked Heathens going to hell. And they’re all like “I’ll see you in hell — from heaven!” because their idea of eternal happiness is leaning over the edge of a fluffy cumulus humilis so they can get a good view of what’s going on in the Lake of Unending Pain and Suffering That You Deserve You Wicked Bad Person You.

What confuses me a bit, though, are the Jehova’s Witnesses. They apparently believe that only 144,000 people get to go to heaven, presumably all (or at least most) of them Jehova’s Witnesses, and yet they keep going out and trying to recruit new members. Now that’s some selflessness right there. Or maybe a bad grasp of basic probability.

tb, I take exception to that!

At least half my comments about Dan were coherent! No matter whose blog was hosting them!

It was truly hilarious. Even the righttards were horrified at what he’d done, and eventually he yanked it, and blamed everyone else for propogating it.

Me thinks he still burns a candle for the poor woman.

…DeLay will be one of the many True Believers who will run in 2012, arguing that the GOP was pummelled in 2008 because the nominee Wasn’t! Conservative! Enough!

This sounds about right. I think that narrative is responsible for the pathetic and scary crop of Republican presidential hopefuls this time around – except for McCain, who’s in the running because it’s His Turn to be President, and Romney, who nobody can say where the fuck he’s coming from.

The Not! Conservative! Enough! blather started about 5 seconds after the ’06 ass-whupping the Republicans took, if not before, but it’ll be way more extreme in ’08. Whether it has any traction depends on whether the ’08 president makes significant progress rolling back the Bush-era turdishness to the point that the public wholeheartedly supports them. Or if Giuliani manages to win, there might be some really fringey righties willing to listen to it after awhile.

I’ll be going home to D.C. for Thanksgiving, and I’ll be wondering why D.C. can’t be more like Salt Lake City.

I’ll trade you Temple Square for the Smithsonian!

Doc Science:

But that’s exactly my point. Why isn’t the satisfaction of watching us all burn in eternal flame, like JFK’s, enough?

I say if you have to pile on us heathens while we’re alive, you’re not a true believer.

Yes, that is Tom’s mug shot. He looks like a deer that’s been chowing on locoweed about five seconds before it gets mowed down by a semi. Either that or the guy who hangs around the playground, just staring, and creeping everyone the hell out.

I do love the fact he’s teamed up with Ken Blackwell. Keep all the crooks in one place, I say.

If I were Tom Delay, I’d start wearing a Kryptonite butt-plug.

Superman is in prison? At least it would be faster than a speeding bullet, but the more powerful than a locomotive part might give Tommy a wide stance for the rest of his life.

OT but IMPORTANT! World O’Crap are “asking which beloved holiday classic you’d like us to defile for you?” At the moment, Miracle on 34th St (or whatever its called) is ahead.

“Rabbid Saul” or Rabbit Saul”?

No, no, Superman’s dick would be repelled by the Kryptonite butt-plug. Instant flaccidity, in Superman’s case.

But everyone else’s won’t.

Well yeah, that’s your point. But the first part, that some people think “hey it would be really bad for all those people if they died without the benefit of MY religion,” I think they’ve at least got the courage of their convictions, or however you want to put it. Imagine that you saw someone doing something obviously self-destructive and dumb, but then also imagine you grew up surrounded by creepy statues of a blood-covered guy being tortured to death, and also he’s constantly watching you, even when you’re in the bathroom. You’d probably be a little freaked out about everyone else’s behavior too. And not just things like injustice and exploitation, but also things like someone not saying the words right.

Oh yeah, plus he was a zombie for a while too.

If you’re serving a bullet or less, it ain’t on the table.

But if you’ve got ten years or more, you’re gonna have to think about it.

Are you gonna fuck or get fucked?

Much as the macho stories wanna forget this part, for every pitcher there is at least one catcher.

Catching IS a survival stratagy. If you give it up, you don’t have to fight, and you’re gonna get your needs met.

But if you’re a fighter, you might not have to give it up, but you’re gonna have to find another way to get all the shit you need to get. And you’re gonna need to find a bitch – you might as well.

I never had to serve out a multi-year, just some months here and there. But if you’re going in to serve out some hard time, you need to figure out your strategy. If you’re gonna pitch, you’re gonna need to fight, and you’re gonna get cut, and it’s gonna be hard for at least a couple years before you can make your rep.

If you’re gonna catch, you’re gonna get handed around and treated kinda harshly, but you’re not gonna have to fight for basic shit like dope and smokes and noodles and shit.

The worst of it is the last week before going inside. I’ve had some friends so terrified, so broken down before their turn-in date, and there’s nothing you can do but put some money on their books and promise them you’ll take care of their shit outside.

You do your time like you get born. Alone, and philosophically, if not actually, naked..

mikehy

Off to bed, ladies and gents, and Saul.

Would love to stay longer, but I gotta show up for work, even on Friday.

Y’all have a good time now, y’hear?

“A friend of someone who once met Robert Novak told me his cousin’s sister-in-law had seen Tom Delay suck the dicks of several prominent conservative religious figures, in costume as Ted Kennedy.”

Yeah, I saw that Kubrick film.

Tom Delay at work & play.

You people let that pass? Saul, no congregation calls its’ Rabbi by his/her first name. Rabbi Saul? hah.

Catching IS a survival stratagy.

Meet Donny the Punk.

http://www.jimgoad.net/am4pdf/donny.pdf

But that’s exactly my point. Why isn’t the satisfaction of watching us all burn in eternal flame, like JFK’s, enough?

Oh, it’s plenty. Believe me, that keeps them warm at night. But harassing people while demonstrating how Godly one can be is also a rush, so why not indulge?

Really, if you ask them why they can’t just wait for God to sort it out, they will tell you that it’s because they want to save us from that fate, because they are such good people they care about us.

But I’m betting they’d be horrified at the notion of actually having us sodomites and secular humanists and godless types in their heaven, redeemed or otherwise.

I mean, think about it though. If I had the chance to give certain assholes I know the Heimlich, I would do so gleefully and with enthusiasm. Not only would I possibly be saving their lives, meaning they’d owe me, but I’d also have the chance of breaking their ribs! Win/win! So too preaching at the sinners.

Since you asked: Mormons, among other things, believe that Jesus & God (real name: Elohim) are two physically separate beings, that Elohim had real, physical sex w/ Mary to create Jesus, that Lucifer is Jesus’s younger(?) brother, that each MAN (after death) has the potential to become a god, w/ his own domain & many wives, who are busy sexing it up w/ the god/man, & giving birth to spirit children that will then populate planets in human form. Also that Elohim was once a human (Adam, I believe, hard to keep all this straight). And that Elohim & Jesus live on a planet called Kolob. And to get into Heaven (or Kolob, again I’m not sure if they’re the same place) you need a secret handshake & the password (which is “Pay Lay Ale,” dunno how “Ale” is pronounced). Most of their “secret, can’t have you Gentiles in our Temple” ceremonies are adaptations of the Masonic rites of founder Joseph Smith’s day.

There’s other good stuff, but it doesn’t quite go along w/ the regular Bible, to say the least. So the regular fundies aren’t big fans of this stuff.

Mormons have been called the African Americans of the Republican Party because 90% of them vote Republican in every election. In Utah a very solidly Republican stronghold Mormons make up 62% of the population. In the 2004 Presidential election Bush carried Utah by 72% of the vote. The highest margin of any state. The Mormons are a very loyal Republican voting bloc we need them.

Too bad they’re not 15% of the country’s population, huh?! Ehheehehehehe heh.

And go take a political science class on US presidential election math. With our winner-take-all electoral college, every vote in a state beyond what’s needed to have a majority for a candidate is useless. Doesn’t matter if Romney won 51% or 98% of the votes in Utah LaLaLand. Doesn’t help him in Ohio

A very strange and interesting tale, Bubba. Thanks.

Donny’s judgementalism toward Feminist rape survivors is a bit weird, however. It is as if, because he judges himself to have overcome being raped himself, he doesn’t respect women who were raped, but don’t feel like they have overcome it.

There’s other good stuff, but it doesn’t quite go along w/ the regular Bible, to say the least. So the regular fundies aren’t big fans of this stuff.

It’s great stuff. Right up there with Xenu and the soul-trapping machines.

Thanks for your explanation M. Bouffant. I was raised RC and all I can say is the CoLDS should sue the estate of L. Ron Hubbard for copyright infringement. Wow.

I’d add that Jesus supposedly stopped by North America after he rose from the dead, becoming the first person to gather frequent flyer miles. Anyway, he passed on a lot of wisdom to the Native Americans. Pity he didn’t warn them to chase off funny looking guys who didn’t speak the language.

Clearly I should just not discuss religion. Period.

Shalom gentlemen.

Joseph Smith = L. Ron Hubbard, but with a better haircut.

Every thing I know about mormonism, I learned on an episode of South Park. And it was plenty.

What a fucking scam.

On the subject of Mormonism, watch John Safran vs God if you get the chance. There’s a segment of Episode 5 where Safran goes door-to-door in Salt Lake City — getting people out of bed at 8 on a weekend morning so he can brandish his copy of ‘Origin of Species’ at them and ask whether they’d ever thought about converting to atheism.

To vaguely quote Sam Harris, “As soon as you read about Mormonism, you know it’s bogus.” Amen, bro. I wait for the day when someone–Republican candidate, journalist, whoever–says to Mitt Romney, “Come on. Seriously. Do you actually *believe* this shit?” I wait, yes, but I’m not holding my precious breath.

Please, people: do NOT respond to the Sauls of this world, or at least of this blog. They are (imagine italics) agents provocateurs, but as such, they are (imagine italics), cretins. Period.

I must admit, I was pretty giggly when I found out that the “rapture” isn’t really in the Bible. It is a song on a Morbid Angel album though.

DeLay got into politics to subvert laws against pollution and emissions from chemical plants. He has no soul left to save, but some real chutzpah to talk so much about Jesus, who really is the most innocent bystander here in the entire parade of Teh Fundies. Yeah, google “Tarpon Springs Florida”, Stauffer Chemical, and “EPA Superfund Site” and some of my eco-rage will be more apparent. I know the wingnuts think I’m insane for thinking that chemical companies who bury radioactive waste in metal barrels that rust out and leak into the ground 500 yards from an elementary school are evil and should have to pay for their crimes. But if that’s insanity, I must say I feel better than those walking around afraid to express what they really feel.

DeLay’s got a lot of nerve. Entire families are dead from the industries he helped protect.

But check this out:
http://www.criticsrant.com/bb/reading_level.aspx

Sadly, No got a High School reading level rating, but Little Green Footballs apparently got college. Uh, I just figured something that fucked up belonged in a thread about Tom DeLay.

Actually, the best link is from ChenZhen:
http://chenzhen.wordpress.com/2007/11/18/chamber-readability/#comment-8140

LGF: College
LGFWatch:College PostGrad

Hmm, 2012 was supposed to be Gingrinch’s Triumphant Comeback year. So, if Twisty Tom Delay is already looking for an electoral niche (in advance of his prison term, I assume), we all get to watch the ugly spectacle of The Newt and The Lizard in their no-holds-barred cage match. Of couse Newt has at least 100 pounds on DeLay, but Tom’s got the ferret-on-meth speed advantage. Not much of a consolation for the sane people among us, but at least we can hope that they’ll fatally wound each other in the process.

Well, the whole thing about Jesus In North America is pretty rich too. He came to visit the Lost Tribes of Israel, who rafted over ftom the Mid East about 600 B. C. At some point (nor sure if before or after J.’s visit) the tribes had a big war, the bad guys won, & Elohim cursed them w/ the “Mark of Cain” (non-white skin) which they can work off if they convert. Seriously. You could look it up. There are statements by Mormons that they have proof that convert’s skin is becoming more “whitesome & delightsome” over the generations.

And absolutely no archaeological evidence of these great steel, horse & oxen using civilizations.

People will believe anythng. And I think Romney’s been asked at least once “how much of it” he believes, he said he bought it all.

The really, really Lost Tribes of Israel.

There’s a segment of Episode 5 where Safran goes door-to-door in Salt Lake City — getting people out of bed at 8 on a weekend morning so he can brandish his copy of ‘Origin of Species’ at them and ask whether they’d ever thought about converting to atheism.

Here ya go

Donny’s judgementalism toward Feminist rape survivors is a bit weird, however.

He was a weird guy and is now dead. I can’t imagine having a head full of good and pure ideas after all that, and he obviously didn’t. His wikipedia entry has more links.

M. Bouffant,
yeah, right… you are making all this shit up. Not that I know any of this, but what you are telling us is some supe-crazy shit, man…

Well, let me say this:
If Romney buys all this shit, and if he is elected, then the “reality-based community(tm)” is in for whooole lotta trouble. As a card-carrying member I feel like we’ll be longing for the Bush years, when things made sense…

which they can work off if they convert

Maybe that was Michael Jackson I saw in the Salt Lake City bus depot in 1987.

Mormons, among other things, believe that…

…Joseph Smith knew a language called Reformed Egyptian. The other beliefs are all stupid, but no more stupid than a lot of stuff from a lot of religions, the bible being really fucking bogus in so many ways that it can’t be taken seriously except as metaphor.

In the story of Reformed Egyptian we have a simple and obvious con: there was no such language and Joseph Smith was caught bullshitting. It’s like basing a religion on crop circles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Egyptian

It’s like basing a religion on crop circles.

I’d say it’s more like basing a religion on an obviously Photoshopped image of a crop circle that reads “Clem.”

Idea!

All available on the intarweb. And no more bogus than any other holy crap, but, as The Righteous One says, this crap can pretty much be disproved, as it is w/in the historical era. Indeed, Smith’s family apparently ran cons of various sorts, including something to do w/ treasure hunting. The L. Ron of his day.

How people can believe any of this crap for 30 seconds is beyond me. The evolutionary biologists may be right saying some of them are hard-wired for this crap.

I’d say it’s more like basing a religion on an obviously Photoshopped image of a crop circle that reads “Clem.”

I, for one, welcome our new single-syllable overlords.

I’ve long been convinced that a large part of the reason Mormons come in for more contempt than most other Christians is simply a matter of grandfathering. Sure, Christianity is based on a series of patently absurd stories you’re required to believe are factual, but it’s been around and mainstream long enough that even rational people feel no logical twinges professing their belief in it. When the Bible was written, the whole dragons and miracle cures and curses crap probably seemed like as good an explanation for stuff as anything else. By the time Mormonism was founded, the people writing it maybe should have known better, so clearly it’s stupid to believe that.

M. Bouffant wrote:

Smith’s family apparently ran cons of various sorts, including something to do w/ treasure hunting. The L. Ron of his day.

I’ve always assumed that Smith was an especially plausible-seeming lunatic, but you may very well be right. You seem to know a lot more about these guys than I do.

How people can believe any of this crap for 30 seconds is beyond me.

I think the utter craziness of it actually helps. If you subscribed to a belief system that seemed semi-rational, you’d likely feel that you could analyze it without undermining your faith, making it easy to slip into skepticism. But if you converted to a totally whacked-out belief system, you’d always be aware that you could never question any of it without the whole thing seeming absurd. You’d have to believe absolutely or lose your faith absolutely.

But that begs the question of why anyone would convert to this mess in the first place.

http://www.conservapedia.com/Special:Statistics

Alright, who’s been search-bombing conservapedia? Gary, I’m looking at you.

“It’s like basing a religion on crop circles.”

We have that. It’s called the “New Age” movement. Just for completeness, there are plenty of crazy beliefs on the left too.

“New Age”

Rhymes with sewage.

We have that. It’s called the “New Age” movement. Just for completeness, there are plenty of crazy beliefs on the left too.

Left and right don’t really have a whole lot of meaning when your referents are simply nuts. There’s a lot of black-helicopter crossover in the New Age, as folks like David Icke move from hippy-dippy crap to treating The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as “true” in some mutated (or not) sense.

It’s called the “New Age” movement.
I’ve never seen the New Age crowd as left-wing. The whole central uniting credo of New Agism is “It’s all about me“.

The new Contract with America should pledge these things.

1. Secure our borders. Demonize Spanish-speakers, but do not disturb corporate America’s supply of cheap labor.

2. Declare English the National language. Admit, finally, that changing San Francisco to “St. Francis” would be silly.

3. Defend and promote Traditional American Values. Like Newt Gingrich Ted Haggard Larry Craig Warren Jeffs??

4. Abolish the IRS and replace the income tax with a national sales tax. Just give any revenues left to the richest 1%.

5. Health Care Reform using the free market and individual choice. Because it worked so well in the 19th century!

6. Social Security Reform but creating personal private accounts. Gut Social Security. And abolish the Estate Tax.

7.Balance the Federal Budget. Just like Reagan did. And Bush Sr. And Bush Jr. With a GOP Congress.

8. Aggressively fight and win the war on terror. Just like Reagan did. And Bush Sr. And Bush Jr.
That Contract with America would be unbeatable! (Just like Teh 90’s!)

Holy crap, a Mormon discussion and I’ve been missing out. I’m something of a buff, in that unlike most people slandering LDS I’ve actually read the various holy works, relevant histories and biographies, etc. rather than getting my information through orthodox Christian propaganda, South Park, &c. Thus, I can actually legitimately slander LDS. (Warning — you may want to preemptively tl,dr at this point.)

I’ve always assumed that Smith was an especially plausible-seeming lunatic, but you may very well be right.

Smith was a necromancer and treasure-digger in his youth, and he came from a family somewhat predisposed toward mysticism and ecstatic, personal religion. There’s some evidence that suggests that the Book of Mormon itself was not originally intended to be a religious text, but rather a “recovered” romance of the natives without any particularly novel religious material.

Indeed, there’s nothing in the Book of Mormon which is outright heretical in terms of Christianity — it takes certain doctrinal stances, but none of them are very controversial in the context of the Protestantism of the times. The most obvious ideological stances are virulent anti-Masonic sentiment and the requisite slams on the hated priestcraft of the Popish religion. Even Jesus’ appearance in the New World is at most a slightly shocking addition to traditional Christian belief, without having any actual impact on the theology. (Jesus is substantially less active in the New World than in the Old World, mostly favoring omens and booming voices from on high.)

It was probably the combined influence of Smith’s credulous secretaries Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris (a buffoon of the highest water), along with the existing tendency of the Smith family to religious fervor, that led to Joseph’s little romance ending up as the basis for a new religious movement. Smith’s natural talents at storytelling and tendency toward deception, combined with a highly receptive audience, rather quickly resulted in a situation where he very likely could not have recanted — everyone he knew and loved would have rejected him, assuming that they’d even believe him.

Alec usually accuses me around this point of being duped by a huckster so charismatic that his skill reaches beyond the grave, but there’s certainly a quite human dimension to Joseph Smith, Jr. It’s hard to categorize him as a con man, and it’s even harder to categorize him as a lunatic. My personal preference is to simply note how successful he was at instituting an ultimately novel religious movement, one which in less than 200 years has become respectable enough for a candidate for the presidency to openly identify with. If that kind of whitewashing can occur in such a short time, even considering the enormous amount of documentary evidence we have of the religion’s founding and the obviously fabricated nature of its holy works, is it really a surprise that Jesus and Mohammad were able to do the same?

If you throw out the Book of Mormon (which, as I said, has little to no direct doctrinal meaning to the Church of Latter Day Saints), the theology of Mormonism is only implausible in comparison to orthodox Christianity if you’re coming from an implicitly orthodox Christian viewpoint — both of them contain rank injustice and laughable absurdity, and LDS actually does a bit better than its ancestor in that sense.

What I’ll say is that it’s rather absurd for any self-identified progressive to single out Romney’s religion for any particular criticism or ridicule that they wouldn’t apply equally to, say, Guiliani’s religion. And for both, the really important thing is that they’re repulsive fascist shitheels.

Oh, believe you me, I condemn them all, in the harshest terms possible. Not sure how practicing of a Catho Rudy the G is, other than keeping his boyhood friend the “Molesting Monsignor” on his payroll.

So why are there any female Mormons? What’s in it for them?

“I’m surprised there hasn’t been any mention of it on SN”

Some of the Sadly Nauts are, um, allergic to Protein Wisdom. You can Google it.

“So why are there any female Mormons? What’s in it for them?”

Subservience and a firm knowledge of their place in the world, i.e., beneath men.

I mean, that’s the view from the Mormon standpoint.

the theology of Mormonism is only implausible in comparison to orthodox Christianity if you’re coming from an implicitly orthodox Christian viewpoint
So to sum up… it’s hard to see any reason to accept the Pauline epistles as part of the New Testament — as important as the reported words of Christ himself — while rejecting the Book of Mormon. Is that a fair summary? Except that one epileptic fantasist / con-man got there before the other.

I suppose you could reject the Book of Mormon on stylistic grounds… “chloroform in print” and all that. Written excruciatingly badly, in a clumsy pastiche of what the author thought the Grand Style should sound like. But Revelations is just as much a pastiche, written by some scribe in a darkened library as first-century slash-fic. Norman Cohn wrote somewhere that you can practically smell the lamp-oil coming off the pages.

But all this is exactly why atheists and agnostics need to take the piss out of the LDS. It’s a dirty job but no-one else can do it. Or at least, a fundamentalist believer in the inerrant Word of God is not able to criticise the amount of bullshit history in the Book of Mormon, or its fraudulent origins — not without being knocked over backwards by the sheer weight of beams in the eye.

Well, thanks all for educating me about Mormonism. I think most religions are pretty silly but that’s just…damn. Sounds like a really bad (and pretentious) scifi novel. Yeah, I’d really like someone to ask Mittens if he REALLY believes this stuff.

Still not as fucked up as those Unification guys though.

“And for both, the really important thing is that they’re repulsive fascist shitheels.”
Well said.

Meanwhile TBogg reports that the Moonie-Unificatory people are calling for tolerance towards the Mormons.
“Yes, they may be heretics, but at least they’re doctrinaire authoritarians, so we agree on the basic priorities“.

Saul said,

November 21, 2007 at 3:45

Tom Tancredo’s other policies.

1. A Human Life Amendment to the Constitution banning both abortion and euthanasia.

Yes, because the Federal Government convening an emergency session to interfere in the Terri Schiavo affair was such a winner for the GOP. Let’s rephrase that:

Under Tancredo, you like Terri Schaivo will be permanently chained to a respirator whether your family wants it, can afford it, or not.

So how’s that one going for you?

2. A Federal Constitutional Amendment banning same sex marriage.

Is that a Wedge issue I see? How pathetic! And did that wedge issue’s utility expire almost immediately after the 2004 election? Why, I think it did.

3. Abolish the IRS and replace the income tax with a national sales tax.

So, more tax breaks for the rich:

Tom Tancredo is so happy with the tax cuts he and his wealthy buddies have gotten, they’d like to extend them and make you pay even more. After all, a 6% sales tax on gas is nothing to a guy who makes a million dollars a year. What is it to YOU?

I think you also mention balancing the budget in one of your other unintentionally hilarious comments. Sorry, buddy. There is no way that line is selling again. Republicans are NOT helping balance the budget. What they are doing is the OPPOSITE of help.

4. Prevent Iran from developing nukes.

Yes, because this is a serious concern to most Americans. And the Republicans have done such a good job keeping a lid on nukes held by lawless nations. Why, the Not-At-All Dictator Pervez Mushharf, who doesn’t imprison political dissidents and suspend elections, was totally hand-slapped for imposing martial law on his nation by dictator-coddling George W. Bush. And not only does he have nukes, he is almost certainly giving them away to all his buddies left and right. I mean, talk about a big fucking yawn. Pakistan had nukes years ago and they’re every bit as fundamentalist and anti-democratic as Iran. They just don’t have any fucking oil.

5. Eventual regime change in Iran by supporting Secular Democratic dissidents inside Iran.

This one will go over well.

Tom Tancredo promises you a repeat of the Iraq war, in Iran.

Young Men and Women! Sign up for the military now and you’ll get a $30,000 bonus to be returned the moment you’re too injured to continue in combat for COLLEGE.

The Iraq war has brought a permanent END to American imperialism. In the history books, George W. Bush will serve as the book-end to the post WWII period, a sad and pathetic little coda to the once-robust leadership of the free world. Bush led a great and respected nation to war on the basis of a ridiculous lie. Tancredo wants to lead a great and respected nation to war on the basis of another ridiculous lie. But we aren’t that nation anymore and we have no clout. Even if, for some reason, an utter brick like Tancredo were imagining he would use the U.S.’ foreign policy clout to affect regime change in Iran, we aren’t that nation anymore either. Maybe you don’t get it — nobody is listening to us anymore. The world saw that we would put a fratboy jackoff like Bush in power and none of our institutions would put out a restraining hand to stop him. They aren’t going to have any time or money or attention for us anymore. The next President’s goal is going to be to convince the rest of the world that we aren’t the most dangerous country in it. Good luck getting back their trust to involve ourselves in any credible promotion of Democracy. I once again refer to Bush’s pathetic, utterly inexcusable embrace of Coup-To-Power Pervez. A. Fucking. Joke.

Go to http://www.ontheissues.org and read Tancredo’s voting record.

I think most Americans can already guess Tancredo’s voting record:

1. Homophobic.
2. Racist.
3. Corporation-hugging.
4. Constitution-shredding.
5. Stupid.

Saul, the Republicans are the biggest fucking joke of the century. I’m laughing right the fucking hell in your face.

In case you don’t already know I am a Jewish Rabbi. My Congregation calls me Rabbi Saul.

No you aren’t, and no they don’t. All the rabbis I’ve ever met have been well educated. You, OTOH, are barely literate.

He’s just differentiating himself from all those Theravada Buddhist Rabbis.

I like the national sales tax/no-IRS idea. I see no downside to it at all. Of course, we’ll have to disban that spiffy, expensive-as-hell military, because there’s no way in blue fucking hell we could possibly afford it. But, hey, rich people will be richer, so it all balances out.

US GDP* in 2006 was ~$13 trillion. The 2006 federal spending was $2.6 trillion ($400b over budget, btw) Let’s assume a massive 10% Federal Sales Tax, that still is a meager $1.3 trillion with which to run the Federal government, half of what’s required.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget,_2006
Look! Numbers!

Most states depend heavily on state sales tax for the bulk of their income, with side incomes from DMV fees and a few other things here and there, And most states would be bankrupt were it not for the Federal government sending money there way.

*GDP not exactly a fair number to start with, but I couldn’t find a “US national total of sales” easily, so it seemed like a decent second best.

I’d pay to see Krugman and DeLay fight.

But what’s with his flack regarding Republicans without any backbone? That’s our line for the Dems?

Thanks, Djur. This subject is something I’ve never known much about, but always found vaguely fascinating.

There’s some evidence that suggests that the Book of Mormon itself was not originally intended to be a religious text, but rather a “recovered” romance of the natives without any particularly novel religious material.

So your take was that Smith was initially planning on marketing a bogus recovered Native American romance, and things got out of hand? Interesting. In some ways that scenario is even stranger than Smith as an outright religious scam-artist or Smith as a lunatic.

From what little I do know about Mormon theology, it does strike me as exceptionally bizarre, even in the generally bizarre realm of religious belief. But this comment….
And for both (Romney and Giuliani), the really important thing is that they’re repulsive fascist shitheels.
…is one I fully agree with.

http://www.conservapedia.com/Template:Examples_of_Liberal_Bias

Both Smith and his dad tried out various mythologies, mostly as fund raising ventures. Because he told different victims different stories the LDS have had to keep an eye out for the letters to elderly women that occasionally surface in upstate New York auctions. You’ve got to give it to him though he hit on a winner. Reformed Egyptian indeed. “Chloroform in print” nails it as to the style of the Book of Mormon.

For any one interested in reading more Krakauer’s ‘Storming Heaven’ is good and pretty easy reading. For a novel, I can recommend John Gardner’s last,’Mickleson’s Ghosts’ which has philosophy, sex, toxic waste and great Mormon villains. And ghosts. I finished it the day he died and while he seems a little dated now back in the day I thought he was great.

Hi Gary.

Honestly, if they hadn’t had enough open land to run from the angry mobs, the mormons never would’ve made it. No way. And if we stil had murderous mobs, the Scientologists never would’ve made it. All backwards somehow.

regime change in Iran

Didn’t we already do that one, oh, acouple of times at least?

Your bias is factually incorrect, we must stop hating Bush and conservitves and the real Americans to get to the truth about our freedom. Mormons and Catholics are not real Christians. Everybody knows that.

Gary Ruppert said,

November 21, 2007 at 16:01

http://www.conservapedia.com/Template:Examples_of_Liberal_Bias

You know what’s amazing about that link. I looked at the statements it was giving, and most of them weren’t real “examples.” Here are a few, erm, examples of what I mean.

1 calling conservative humor “unprofessional and meaningless, and degrades the quality of your encyclopedia.” [1]
2 overreliance on hearsay, such as the false claim that most support evolution
3 unjustified praise of atheists and other liberals as “geniuses”, despite little achievement
4 calling the use of the term liberal when used in a derogatory context “stupid”[2]

First thing I noticed was that none of the examples were attributed quotes in and of themselves. So like Inigo Montoya, I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

But, I thought, surely those footnotes pointed to the source of examples of the examples. I took items 1 and 4 as test cases and found myself at the footnotes section. And the footnotes would in a correctly-annotated scholarly text lead to outside sources confirming the assertions therein.

But footnotes [1] and [2] start with the header http://www.conservapedia.com.

In other words, conservapedia asserts the existence of liberal bias, and points back to conservapedia as a source of the truth of that information.

Now filled with morbid curiosity I moused over the rest of the references on that page. THREE external references in all of that. Here they are:

When it comes to profanity, the Left Can’t Help itself from that bastion of journalistic neutrality, Newsbusters.

An SFGate article about creationism being taught in schools

The Senate condemning the General BetrayUS ad.

The rest of the links point back to conservapedia.com. I haven’t bothered to follow them because I’m sure I’ll get sucked into a circular link-fest of self-referential nonsense. If you expect conservapedia to be taken seriously as a source of . . . information . . . about anything, you might recommend to the editors that they develop some guidelines for standards of research that aren’t a joke.

You might also have to overcome the growing realization that conservapedia readers have a fixation on certain topics that are of less than pressing importance to the rest of us.

Please, oh please, Sadly No!, tell us you’re going to do a takedown of this Janet Folger column at Wingnut Daily.

this Janet Folger column

I can see the altruism and the perversion!

Janet Folger column at Wingnut Daily.

Wow. A veritable Thanksgiving feast! Much like Thanksgiving dinner, one doesn’t know where to start. I’ll take the mashed potatoes of insanity — the form of the article is a letter from a prison in the near future, a prison opened by Hillary to hold Christians. But I can’t leave out the pumpkin pie of what-the-fuckness — Mike Huckabee is the only one who can save American Christians from this dystopia. Please ma’am, give us more!

“Christianity is based on a series of patently absurd stories”

Well, I’d agree that they’re stories, myths, human attempts to make sense and find meaning in a large and mostly incomprehensible universe.

Elements of many christian stories – virgin birth, redemptive death and resurrection, etc. are similar to other such stories from other cultures. Joseph Campbell popularized these ideas via Bill Moyers.

To me, the craziest part of christianity is the belief that these stories are somehow unique to it, or that while other cultures may have stories with similar themes, the christian ones are true.

I think that’s fucked up.

regime change in Iran

Didn’t we already do that one, oh, acouple of times at least?

Oh, but it worked out so well before! After all, the current belligerent revolutionary government is in no way the result of backlash against the repressive rule of the CIA’s good buddy the Shah.

Sorry, teh funny has deserted me today, leaving only teh outrage at our slow stumble toward war in the Middle East. You know, again.

The new Contract with America should pledge these things.

1. Secure our borders. (Aka shoot wetbacks)

2. Declare English the National language. (Taser dark people for speaking funny)

3. Defend and promote Traditional American Values. (Lynch some niggers)

4. Abolish the IRS and replace the income tax with a national sales tax.

5. Health Care Reform using the free market and individual choice. (Allow the poor to die)

6. Social Security Reform but creating personal private accounts. (Allow the elderly to eat dog food)

7.Balance the Federal Budget. (Bomb some more sand niggers)

8. Aggressively fight and win the war on terror. (Bomb the rest of the darkies and sand niggers)

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!11!

Hillary is going to open prisons to hold Christians? And Huckabee is going to travel back in time with his cyborg pal Mitt, to stop her? That sounds cool. Is James Cameron directing?

My personal preference is to simply note how successful he was at instituting an ultimately novel religious movement, one which in less than 200 years has become respectable enough for a candidate for the presidency to openly identify with.

I for one am glad I’ll be long dead before a Sciencefictionoligist runs for office.

Let us not forget the ceremonial crowning of Sun Myung Moon.

Aggh! I read a World Net Daily column. Now my brain’s polluted. It didn’t help that I was looking at convervapedia just before that. Now I’m more confused than ever. Is Hitlery the biggest threat to Christianinaty EVAR or is it the Islamofascists?

Is Hitlery the biggest threat to Christianinaty EVAR or is it the Islamofascists?

Well she can’t be the Anti-Christ because she doesn’t have a penis and GAAAHHH!!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN MY OFFICE??? DON’T SHOOT!!! DON’T SH–

Hillary is going to open prisons to hold Christians? And Huckabee is going to travel back in time with his cyborg pal Mitt, to stop her? That sounds cool. Is James Cameron directing?

Huckabee will no doubt be aided by none other than Chuck Norris.

That Folger lady is one whacky broad.

The money quote: “When they came for the Philadelphia 11, I didn’t speak up, because I was from Cleveland.”

There’s some evidence that suggests that the Book of Mormon itself was not originally intended to be a religious text, but rather a “recovered” romance of the natives without any particularly novel religious material.

Anyone for a Church of Jacqueline Susann?

That Folger lady is one whacky broad.

And her Faith 2 Action site has some quality kookery, especially for you Guar on Christmas fans.

Had we nominated Huckabee to run against Hillary, the stark difference between the two would have brought voters out in droves.

Oh, man, yes!! But I guess the droves must have been busy during the primaries.

So — a guy who is too far to the right to get a good turnout in the primaries is gonna get a good turnout in the general election? Explain that, Janet.

That letter is just a tearjerker, too! Of course, it will indeed be easier to lock people up for “thought crimes” due to the damage the Bush administration has done to our system of justice, habeus corpus and all that – maybe ole Janet and her buddies should work on fixing THAT, what do you think?

To me, the craziest part of christianity is the belief that these stories are somehow unique to it, or that while other cultures may have stories with similar themes, the christian ones are true.

I think the very first doubts I had about religion was over stuff like this. I remember noticing that different forms of belief looked awfully similar, and yet lot of them were claiming an absolute monopoly on rectitude and damning all rival sects to hell. Even as a small child, I began to suspect that I was in the presence of bullshit.

Now, why do Marriotts provide you with the Book of Mormon along with the Gideon Bible?

Granted, they’re kept in different drawers so they don’t bicker.

More Janet Folger craziness.

Yes, because the Federal Government convening an emergency session to interfere in the Terri Schiavo affair was such a winner for the GOP.

For some reason Malkin thinks so too, leading to a lot more dissent than she’s used to. Might need to put the cheerleader costume on to win back some of her fans. Via Tbogg

Now, why do Marriotts provide you with the Book of Mormon along with the Gideon Bible?

If the latter doesn’t conk you out the former will.

From Folger: We knew “Thought Crimes” was in danger of becoming law back when it passed Congress in 2007

The corpse of irony just shambled past me, shaking its head slowly.

When you go to the Main Campus in Salt Lake City, they have this cosmic talking Jesus. It is so boss!

I dated a Mormon girl once. when I visited her in Salt Lake, her father took me on the tour.

They are wacky as all get-out, but do great work on genealogy.

I had a girlfriend a long time ago who would write explicit, detailed, HOT erotic fiction inside the front cover of the hotel bibles. I think it was a nice balance, and that it was quality filth told from a woman’s perspective was a particularly nice touch. I’d like to think that at some point somebody’s mind was opened, if only even a little…

mikey

Rightwingsnarkle, I’m pagan, raised Catholic, and believe me, I know full well that all religions, my own included, are based on a series of patently absurd stories. It’s just that Christianity requires otherwise rational people to take them seriously.

Marriott is owned by Mormons, as I recall. (Isn’t Romney on the board, in fact?) Hence the Book of Mormon. I’ve heard rumors of a Mormon group that’s been trying to overtake the Gideons, and really it wouldn’t surprise me if all religions started doing the same thing. Mostly, owners will put anything people give them for free into a room. So if you want hotels in your area to start putting copies of Diet for a Small Planet or The Star Trek Trivia Guide in their rooms, give them several boxes of it.

Sooner or later other religions will get wise. My money’s on Scientology once the Books of Mormon are routine.

Snorghagen said,

Snorghagen, I think you and I had the very same childhood. After church hopping with various friends who wanted to “help” me, I realized the whole deal was 1 elephant with a zillion blindmen describing it, and all of them full of hate for each other for getting the description wrong.

As for the whole Mormon thing, read Krauker’s “Under the Banner of Heaven” for a few reasons, one of which is that this guy is a damned fine writer. He makes the point that Mormonism is the only major world religion where we have such incredibly good historical knowledge of what happened at its inception (Moonies and Scientologists have made sure they didn’t make that mistake). He also gives you plenty of background on the fundamentalist version, and the history of Warren Jeffs, who just yesterday got sentenced to two 5 years to life terms for facilitating the rape of a 14 year old girl that he forced into marriage with a 19 year old first cousin.

Living most of my life in western Colorado, I’ve known a lot of Mormons and they always seemed pretty normal; one of them was even my paleontology professor, which is quite the laugh when you think about it. His reasoning was that some of his religion was actually metaphor, not literal, though I suspect he’d have trouble selling that to a few of his more committed (read:deluded) co-religionists. The scary thing is that they SEEM so damned normal; do yourself a favor and read about this religion because it is spreading like the pod-people virus around the world.

Oh, and if you want to make them leave you alone when they knock on your door? Just tell them you know all about the Mountain Meadows Massacre and could never accept a religion that did that, condoned it, and spent the last 100 years covering it up. They really hate it when you mention that one.

LMAO!!!eleventy!

Dickipedia!

Also, ya’ll really missed JohnO in top form slapping around this Dan Collins doucebag at Tbogg’s, it was a sight to behold. John stayed with the high ground, logic, etc. while Collins devolved into oh yeah? yo momma! with some of the finest displays of right wing moral relativism I have ever seen. It was a thing to behold, providing some stunning insight into the black hearts and shrunken brains of our lizardy buddies on the otherside of the bloggy universe.

Yes! The ’06 Bungles made Dickipedia’s list!!

Eh, I think someone’s in charge up there somewhere. MAybe it just makes more sense to “God” to speak to different cultures in ways they’ll understand. I mean seriously, this is where the Mormons fuck it up. Why would the Indians go ga-ga over a crucified Jew? But then I’m so irreverent I keep being told I’m committing blasphemy. I like this book Jesus and The Buddha: The Parallel Sayings.

Some Christians just excel at giving the religion a bad name. Of course, that’s not unique to Christianity either.

Mr. Skink Tyree-Azagthoth (may I call you Lex?): Ha! You just about beat me to it.

I wanted to make the observation that sometimes I think the only real Christians are Buddhists.

Ah the good ole days of Tom DeLay … I thought he had reached the peak of his irrelevance.

MAybe it just makes more sense to “God” to speak to different cultures in ways they’ll understand.

I don’t think this is a good formulation as it requires you to buy that god speaks to the Aztecs in heart-yankety language while he’s speaking to Jews in “do unto others” language.

What’s easier to believe is that all societies come up with their own manifestations of religion, and that these manifestations mirror their concerns via metaphor. Problems arise when the literal-minded try to bend society to conform to the metaphor rather than the reverse.

Enjoy reading about cargo cults.

Mountain Meadows Massacre needs a link.

Eh, I think someone’s in charge up there somewhere.

See, I just don’t understand this. Not to be an asshole here, Lex, but I’m truly curious. Why do you think that? If you’re like most people, you’ve decided to believe something truly huge and extraordinary on the basis of exactly zero empirical evidence. All you have is the just so stories of your youth.

If I told you I have a diamond the size of a refrigerator buried in my back yard, you’d be very skeptical, and ask me how I know it’s there. Have I seen it? Do I have a trustworthy treasure map?

If I told you my mom was an alien sent to planet earth to end the horrific slaughter of green beans, you’d want to know just exactly what I based that belief upon.

And if I told you I found great peace, comfort and wisdom in the words spoken to me by my vacuum cleaner in the dead of night, you might have trouble accepting that until you heard my vacuum cleaner speak for yourself.

But then we have “religious faith”. A set of extraordinary theories, beliefs and conjectures wholly unsupported by rational argument or empirical evidence. And suddenly, that’s the explanation for the belief. Not the evidence supporting it, but the very lack of evidence provided as evidence! “It’s faith, mikey. You can’t deal with faith the same way as science”.

Oh yeah? I say that makes it demonstrably false. If you want to believe in any mythology, fine, although I’d recommend the one about my mom. But I’ll never understand how 21st century grownups will simply buy something as extreme and unsupportable as “someone’s in charge up there somewhere”…

mikey

Dammit Mikey, my vacuum cleaner talks to me, and says the most wonderous things! But the green beans, well, they simply had to die; there was no other way.

ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© – good link, though Kraukaer’s “Under the Banner of Heaven” book is a bit less forgiving on the topic, and he’s also not hosted at a christian books and culture website. The story there at the Christianity Today website is basically correct, though the interpretations elsewhere of how seriously the higher levels of the mormon church were involved run the gammut from “totally” to “hardly, and not really”. We’re getting more of the latter as the mormon church has decided that it is better to own the story (by releasing “all” the information they have, or so they say) than to try to keep suppressing it and not being able to stomp on all the uncontrolled bugs as they skitter their way across the new media landscape.

Hey!

my vacuum cleaner talks to me, and says the most wonderous things!
Mine just gives me lewd come-ons. It is after my manly essence.

Ah, cargo cults.

I click refresh every five minutes or so
but there’s nothing happening here at all
every time I time I come over to Sadly, no!
There is nothing goin’ down at all, not at all
Then one fine mornin’ I did my own wingnut huntin’
and couldn’t believe what I read at Clown Hall.

SomeGuy, re: the Hammer’s co-sponsorship of FairTax bill (HR 25)- the “no-IRS idea.” Actually, wonder of wonder, it turns out that it WORKS better today and tomorrow:

Prices after FairTax passage would look similar to prices before FairTax – not “30% higher” as opponents contend – competition would see to it. So, the FairTax rate (figured as an income-tax-rate-non-comparative, sales tax) on new items would be 29.85% (on the new, reduced cost of items because business isn’t taxed under FairTax – thus lowering retail prices by 20% to 30%), or 23% of the “tax inclusive” price tag – this is the way INCOME TAX is figured (parts of the total dollar).

The effective tax rate percentages, that different income groups would pay under the FairTax, are calculated by crediting the monthly “prebate” (advance rebate of projected tax on necessities) against total monthly spending of citizen families (1 member and greater, Dept. of HHS poverty-level data; a single person receiving ~$200/mo, a family of four, ~$500/mo, in addition to working earners receiving paychecks with no Federal deductions) Prof.’s Kotlikoff and Rapson (10/06) concluded,

“…the FairTax imposes much lower average taxes on working-age households than does the current system. The FairTax broadens the tax base from what is now primarily a system of labor income taxation to a system that taxes, albeit indirectly, both labor income and existing wealth. By including existing wealth in the effective tax base, much of which is owned by rich and middle-class elderly households, the FairTax is able to tax labor income at a lower effective rate and, thereby, lower the average lifetime tax rates facing working-age Americans.

“Consider, as an example, a single household age 30 earning $50,000. The household’s average tax rate under the current system is 21.1 percent. It’s 13.5 percent under the FairTax. Since the FairTax would preserve the purchasing power of Social Security benefits and also provide a tax rebate, older low-income workers who will live primarily or exclusively on Social Security would be better off. As an example, the average remaining lifetime tax rate for an age 60 married couple with $20,000 of earnings falls from its current value of 7.2 percent to -11.0 percent under the FairTax. As another example, compare the current 24.0 percent remaining lifetime average tax rate of a married age 45 couple with $100,000 in earnings to the 14.7 percent rate that arises under the FairTax.”

Further, per Jokischa and Kotlikoff (circa 2006?) …

“…once one moves to generations postdating the baby boomers there are positive welfare gains for all income groups in each cohort. Under a 23 percent FairTax policy, the poorest members of the generation born in 1990 enjoy a 13.5 percent welfare gain. Their middle-class and rich contemporaries experience 5 and 2 percent welfare gains, respectively. The welfare gains are largest for future generations. Take the cohort born in 2030. The poorest members of this cohort enjoy a huge 26 percent improvement in their well-being. For middle class members of this birth group, there’s a 12 percent welfare gain. And for the richest members of the group, the gain is 5 percent.”

It’s well past time to scrap the tax code and pay for government the way that America’s working men and women are paid – when something is sold.

BTW, as you’re no doubt aware, Mike Huckabee is the ardent FairTax supporter among presidential candidates. His candidacy is surging and, increasingly, Huck is what leadership looks like.

(Permission is granted to reproduce in whole or part. – Ian)

“I wanted to make the observation that sometimes I think the only real Christians are Buddhists.”

An observation made by Roger Zelazny in probably his best book, Lord of Light. (Yes, another science-fiction/fantasy novelist, but no Hubbard or Smith.) It’s a great book — won the Hugo for Best Novel — but some get confused by not realizing the second chapter is a flashback.

The Purtitans where a bunch of goddamn socialists who almost starved to death until they found the wonders of the free market? Who knew? Apparently the geniuses at Clown Hall did!

stringonastick said,

The Purtitans where a bunch of goddamn socialists who almost starved to death until they found the wonders of the free market? Who knew? Apparently the geniuses at Clown Hall did!

Nothing brings in those wingnut welfare bucks quite like good ol’ fashioned Free Market Triumphalism!

Loaves and fishes: a hippie communist plot?

I’m stealing that one for this comment section right now, RB.

Dammit, Lawnguy!

Stossel is particularly ass-hattish, no?

The hell kinda shit is this when S,N! can get almost 200 comments on a normal post that doesn’t involve Rush or those creepy white supremacy girls that sing.

S,N! has become what it always despised

I suppose it can be argued that this assault on John Stossel is reprehensible and stupid. Heh.

And the pie glanced at itself in the fork, just before sliding down his gullet, and thought, “I’ve become what I’ve always despised.”

S,N! has become what it always despised

Hi Yosef! Fitz!

“I wanted to make the observation that sometimes I think the only real Christians are Buddhists.”
– Roger Zelazny

“A religion is sometime a source of happiness, and I would not deprive anyone of happiness. But it is a comfort appropriate for the weak, not for the strong. The great trouble with religion – any religion – is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence. One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak certainty of reason – but one cannot have both.
-Robert A. Heinlein

Then again, Heinlein was frequently confused with a fascist, so what did he know?

“I wanted to make the observation that sometimes I think the only real Christians are Buddhists.”
– Roger Zelazny

“A religion is sometime a source of happiness, and I would not deprive anyone of happiness. But it is a comfort appropriate for the weak, not for the strong. The great trouble with religion – any religion – is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence. One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak certainty of reason – but one cannot have both.
-Robert A. Heinlein

Buddhism is a little different in that respect, because it does not allow the comfort of certainty. Words and ideas are limitations of reality, not the reality itself. If you do follow particular practices to discipline your mind, you must also remind yourself that ritual easily becomes a false friend. Some of the greatest masters have been the ones who broke all of their vows and started fresh.

I would also like to point out that scientific reason is also only certain insofar as it is not certain. All knowledge must be understood to be tentative and subjective, while still hopefully having some objective validity.

Buddhism is not scientific, but it is also not particularly religious, in the way that monotheists use the term. I wouldn’t bask too comfortably in the warm words of Heinlein any more than you would in the words of the Apostle Paul. Just sayin… 😉

Hi Yosef! Fitz!

Righteous Bubba! And TRex got the zed!

5 times watching stossel get slapped and still giggling…

I would also like to point out that scientific reason is also only certain insofar as it is not certain

This is true only insofar as it applies to the scientific method, and thus has great value in determining what is not true, and what can be established to be true under the prevailing understanding of the time.

However, it is neither accurate in describing, nor is it even a fair representation of science itself. Anything that can be expressed mathematically can be considered to be a certainty. Certainly, in some scientific endeavors, such as quantum physics, there are actual physical constraints on what can be known with certainty, but even those constraints themselves are known. And 2+2 will always be four, for any and all known values of 2. An airfoil does produce lift, burning compressed gasses will produce thrust under Newtons third, f will always equal ma, etc.

Eastern metaphysics can help you develop a certain kind of worldview, but they really provide nothing to explain the physical world…

mikey

No discussion of weird Morman practices is complete without mentioning
baptism for the dead

Um, the Xians-Buddhists quote was from MzNicky above. Sorry to be confusing. I could say more about Heinlein. There’s value in discussing The Moon is a Harsh Mistress…

Why thank you, stringonastick!

That was the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me in the blogosphere.

You know what one of Mom’s founding teachings was? “You must rise above.”

Sometimes I fail, but I really tried hard with ol’ Dan.

A lot of it has to do with “pity.” Still, though.

Wow. And here I was thinking I had somehow come up with the exact same quote as this Zelazny fella!

stringonastick:

Just to validate, I went back and read the comments thread on the evil moron Collins over at TBogg’s place, for the first time since I originally got the bit between my teeth.

You’re right, I hung in there fairly and equitably.

Also, he was a defenseless moron.

Shit, that was fun.

To all of you: If you can find something that really offends me, which is why I’m here a lot but I mean PERSONALLY pisses me off, you should let me know, because I have been fairly accused of both not “letting things go,” to, “you’re hard to argue with.” It’s a good combination for conversing with retards.

There are just some things that are a bridge too far. And I’ll dig out the origin if I have the time.

I’m sorry. Arguing with “Dan Collins” for public entertainment is no different than bickering with your wife in the grocery store. There may be a certain “car wreck” fascination, but it’s painful and embarrassing, and not at all what intelligent people do to amuse themselves on the t00bz.

Come ON, peeps. A “smackdown” of something so lame as a “dan collins” is not a source of entertainment.

John. I know your heart’s in the right place. But think about this medium more as an opportunity to offer a position and move on, and less as a real-time communications medium. You wanna argue with Dan, or Saul, or whatever? Try IM. Smart people don’t want to deal with the embarassment of banal “dialog” in real time.

It doesn’t work. It ain’t funny. And ultimately? You can’t win…

mikey

You’re probably right, mikey. No dispute here whatsoever.

But it was fairly close to real time, honest, and do you not come here for some entertainment?

C’mon. If you can’t laugh at it, you’ll kill yourself. Or worse, someone else.

He DID pull the post, you know. Which may not have done much, since it was too late, but, OTOH, might have saved the woman a little more horror than she already had to face.

My own blog does not bother with such trivia. But no one goes there (everyone knows the feeling) so I really enjoy hanging out here and at TBogg’s place and other sites of Great Wisdom and Snark just so I know I’m not alone.

Gimme that, will ya?

And have a great T-Day. I really do agree with you almost across the board, even on some level this one.

But think about this medium more as an opportunity to offer a position and move on, and less as a real-time communications medium.

Yup.

Thanks, Mikey. Very nicely put.

Ah well, whatever. I post at Tbogg’s under a different name and Tbogg found the whole Collins thing amusing; I thought his telenovela comment defined it all quite well. The real point in this case is that without the left bloggies having at Collins for so long, Godlstein would have left that travesty of a post up on his site.

Speaking as a female who has dealt with a stalker, I found the fact that his guy posted this stuff reprehensible. The guys here may not understand it fully, but the pure gut wrenching terror of knowing you’ve got someone watching your every move and repeatedly breaking into your house during the day is something I wouldn’t wish on anyone, and old Danny boy did nothing but wish exactly that on someone who made the unfortunate mistake of dating him over 2 decades ago. Her mistake shouldn’t follow her 2 decades later when a Protein Wisdum knuckledragger decides its worth a shot.

And if I told you I found great peace, comfort and wisdom in the words spoken to me by my vacuum cleaner in the dead of night, you might have trouble accepting that until you heard my vacuum cleaner speak for yourself.

Is Bill Griffiths still writing cartoons? I miss him.

Righteous Bubba: Re: Cargo Cults:

I work in the research funding organization of a Major University. It is frightening to see how “If you build it, they will come” has become sensible thinking.

Re: Heinlein,

Woolly thinking is particularly comforting, especially when worn close to the skin–Dr. Who.

And mikey, always remember that 2+2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of 2.

Am I inconsistent? Very well, I am inconsistent. But, I am definitively inconsistent.

String/stick combo.

You’re right. On many levels. This is why, while I am anti war, I am not a pacifist. There is always a time to fight. Gather whatever allies you can, whatever weapons you can deploy, and engage in the field anybody who threatens your right to be who you are and live the life you want to live. To kill or destroy in the name of personal survival is not just right, it actually is noble.

I’m just saying that the blogosphere is not the place to have these petty arguments. I mean, hell, what would be the point? It’s not entertaining to the others on the site, it doesn’t create change, and it certainly doesn’t un-harden anybody’s opinion. That’s why I suggest it go to email or IM. We don’t need to watch the the train wreck play out in slow motion, just because the argument started in these public spaces.

But again. And this is to anybody reading this. If you find yourself struggling with a stalker, when your life and your freedom is being taken away by a thug with access, please. C’mon. Get your friends involved. Get lawyers, get cops, get people who will stay with you, and if you know somebody with a “gray” past, a shooter, get them too. I’ve had the opportunity to bring a couple of these events to an abrupt end, and it’s pretty satisfying. Especially in the case where I pretty savagely beat a stalker into intensive care with a pool cue and the cops shook my hand and thanked me. ‘Cause they didn’t have the option of dealing with him in that way. And these cops happened to know who I was and my history. But to them, he was a lot worse than I was.

A stalker, by definition, is a bit of a coward. How much of a coward can vary, so you gotta expect a fight from the very first confrontation. But bring all the force you have to bear, and remember – these are your friends and loved ones. If you have to put this idiot in a bag and bury him by the river, fine. You still are on the side of the angels.

Take care of one another, people. All the way. Love is your power, and as things slide out of control you’re going to need each other more and more. You’ve got to figure out, right now, where the line is. And you’ve got to be willing to hold that line. No. Matter. What…..

mikey

The hell kinda shit is this when S,N! can get almost 200 comments on a normal post that doesn’t involve Rush or those creepy white supremacy girls that sing.

S,N! has become what it always despised.

If you hadn’t posted that, there would be one fewer comment. Just sayin’.

Fitz! Zed! Fed! Zitz!

mikey, you gotta know if you don’t already that I am, as one friend puts it, “one of the most combative people I know.”

I will take them down with whatever seems appropriate at the time. TBogg’s place is largely made for laughs, and my sense is that I (and several others) got ol’ Dan to think about things a little differently. Perhaps I’m being grandiose.

But I’m also on public record, having been burglarized a couple of times, that if I ever catch the burglar and somehow get the upper hand by whatever means, the burglar is going to wish the cops had come.

To me, torture is like the death penalty: I’m all for it, as long as *I* get to decide who deserves it. Which is both pointing out both the obvious flaws in the pro-torture/death penalty arguments, and why so many feel ambivalent about them.

All in all, I have a very strong faith in both my own judgement and humanity. I don’t expect anyone else to share it.

And just goddamn it, for the record, we’ll know when we’ve re-established some sense of justice in this country when either a Republican OR, especially OR, a Democrat could make Patrick Fitzgerald the Attorney General of this country.

I for one would be impressed by anyone who nominated him, in a very big way. He knew there were deeper matters in which to mudwrestle, but he took what was his to take.

The man is a stalwart defender of what is right about this country.

No Dem will ever chance it, for the exact same reason.

I spent whatever humanity I came with in May and June 1970, John. I’ve been a ghost ever since.

Oh, I’ve learned to live in my skin, but it’s the kind of living that’s just waiting for dying. I don’t know what else I’m supposed to do. I’d like to be a good man. But I’m not sure I can ever find the path back to that.

Breaking things and hurting people seems to be what I’m about. I truly wish it wasn’t so.

But whatever. I can’t change the past. I can’t bring back the lives taken or destroyed with my own hands. I can’t fix anything I’ve wrecked.

But know what? There’s a kind of freedom in that. I don’t have to try and figure out a path to redemption. There ain’t one. Redemption is for people who still have something left. I just need to figure out what it all means. Why it was decided that I needed to spend my humanity on the shoals of a bloodbath that was truly meaningless.

So if a friend of mine is being stalked by an ex, I have nothing left to lose by putting him in a bag and burying him on the hillside. What are they gonna do? Cut off my hair and send me to vietnam? Shee…

I didn’t ask for it to go this way. I didn’t plan it, or figure it out. They took me off the beach and fucked my life. And that leaves me as clean as a newborn. I know how to do some hard shit, and I’ve got no room left on my soul for new scars…

mikey

I understand.

I think maybe I’m lucky. I have a huge network of friends and family, and a huge fear of The Man to keep me just barely in check. I’ve stayed close to my loved ones, of whom there are many, for the primary purpose of maintaining what I view as “human.”

They kid me about my Ted K. tendencies, and they know I’m just a small step from The Radical, but they keep me in the game, to my eternal gratitude. They’re OK with who I am, so far.

I’ve tried to accept that the only way to get the system to change is from the inside, as it were, particularly in my case since I’ve been a bit of an outsider wherever I’ve been, organizationally, and/but I grow ever-closer to your point of view.

But hope springs eternal, and my greatest wish is that people remember me by knowing I didn’t cave to the Dark Side, as close as I am to it, and as fond as I am of it.

I am a rich man, and I try not to forget it. Hard. And all the time.

There are roses everywhere if you look hard enough. Dogs, for one. Teachers in tough districts. Arab women fighting for Arab women.

To me the human existence is a bit like the stock market: Lots of downturns, but overall up over time. These days, we have the capacity to KNOW a woman in S. Arabia got MORE punished for challenging her gang rape. And people say, “No.”

This is good. Bush has been a shit-stain on our nation, and we may not recover in my lifetime, but I still hold out that Good will win out in the end.

Perhaps I’m being delusional as well as grandiose. It’s just that most of the folks I know are OK, even if we disagree on some things.

I wish I’d someone to count on like Mikey when I had to deal with that asshole stalker, but getting a new job where the office next door was filled with armed guys who were willing to posture for me took care of that coward. 20 years later and still no sign of him.

Mikey knows better than anyone here what the bastards running this country are doing to the people they’ve sent to a war based on lies; just knowing that has got to be a harsh reality for someone who knows what war does to you. I’m sorry Mikey, I wish there was something, anything, that I could say or do but I know there isn’t and it seems small of me to even say that.

I’m with you, stringonastick, I want mikey in my foxhole in a big, big way.

I’d kill for him, with a perverse measure of satisfaction.

But I would also hope he’d be on my side if we agreed our mission was a clusterf**k, so we could frag our local Kommandant.

Life is complicated. War is worse; chaotic, every fucking time. Would that those who declared them still got to man the front lines.

On a somewhat lighter note, stringonastick, you must’ve been teh HOT in your day!

🙂

I’m weathering OK for an old broad. I blame that on playing outdoors as hard and often as possible, usually with toys designed for people a decade or 3 younger. I find my peace in the woods under my own power, winter or summer.

I must say though, I am finding it satisfying and empowering to know I’m not the only liberal minded person who is willing to draw blood if needed. And with some of us knowing exactly how that’s done, well, I have a more optimistic POV than I would otherwise.

🙂

Good for you.

Me, too, for an old man. Again I credit my family, since my cousins and nieces are still cranking out babies, who make me burst with wonder and joy every goddamn time. Gotta couple that are going to be genius millionaires or serial killers. It’s fantastic.

I get to meet my two new adopted Ethiopian cousins for Thanksgiving. I cannot WAIT.

And I sure would like some suggestions: Christmas presents. They’re from Ethiopia, for God’s sake. It could be something as simple as water. I’d like to do better than that. I hope to have a better idea after I meet them, but they’re going to be fairly overwhelmed, I think, by the bounteous good cheer, noise, chaos, food, and general excellence that is my family. So I may not get time to feel them out, since I’m determined not to fawn over them.

They got here about 6 months ago; two sisters, about 1 and 3. They’re doing fine.

But what simple, elegant thing can I get them for Christmas?

My only gift suggestion this year:

eee pc

mikey

Hmm, they’ve been here for awhile so the worst of the culture shock is over. At those ages, tactile sense is how you are getting most of your information from the world, so look for something that they’ll want to touch and look at, somewhat complex in both areas. Age sensitive of course, since 1 and 3 are definitely in the “careful what they might swallow” area. I like handmade stuff, but I’m a bit of a Luddite on that front.

I’m sorrry, mikey, can you be more explicit?

I’ve tried every variation of your suggestion, and still can’t decipher.

Hmm cool thing there Mikey, the more connected we can get, the better chance we have. They might be a bit young for a laptop, but hey, I’ve seen plenty of kids under 10 who make me look like an idiot when it comes to this confounded cell phone thingy.

John O – Google “what is eee pc” and you’ll see a truly cool idea.

Oh, I’m with you, soas. I know it can be cheap and easy and simple and still profoundly cool to them.

That is, in fact, the trick. Again, I’m from a great big family, so I know well enough not to get them anything they can hurt themselves with.

The least I get out of Thanksgiving, I hope, is a better clue about what would maintain their attention for a year or two. But I just can’t count on it.

They’ll have other cousins of like age to entertain them.

Yeah, handmade is definitely the way to go. Check out etsy for colorful, fun, unique stuff. You know, I think something warm and cuddly like a quilt would be a great gift for somebody in the middle of their first real winter. Fleece, maybe?

I’ve had mine for a couple weeks now, and I am having a ball with it. And hell, at four hundred bucks and minimal local storage, it’s practically disposable!!

mikey

Wow! Excellent concept! I’ll think about it hard!

But then my problem is why didn’t I get anything as cool for the 8 others of that age.

I’m going to work on an excuse.

Shit, no way, as much as I would like it.

First of all, given they’re sisters, the only way to handle it sensibly would be to buy two.

Second, I don’t spend that much on Mom, Dad, brother, brother, two “immediate” nephews, two nieces the same, and so on.

Tempting. Just too much.

They’re from Ethiopia. Wiffle bats and balls may give them just as much a kick, if not the comprehensive education. (Which I’m quite confident they’ll get from their parents; my cousin is off-the-charts-smart, and he didn’t marry my cousin-in-law because she was a moron.)

They weren’t having any fertilitiy issues. They just thought it a nice thing to do. In fact, cousin Scott, in standard Scott-fashion, wandered around Ethiopia for two weeks barefoot (“Because I’m in Ethiopia”) only to contract a hideous foot-fungus that followed him around for weeks.

The girls were “inconsolable” on the 26-hour flight home. Can you imagine?

I LOVE my family.

Shit. The holiday season makes me very sentimental.

The password is Indigo12.

They’re very cute, if I do say so myself>

One of my closest friends just adopted a 9 month old from Kazakhstan; the long flight home was a bit of a challenge, but they’d been with him in the orphanage for 6 weeks already as part of the adoption process. Planes are scary for any little kid, and when it is so foreign to what you’ve know so far, I can hardly imagine how scared your cousin’s new family members were.

I just met the boy my friends adopted 2 weeks ago and he’s a calm, happy kid; he’s a little behind developmentally but making up for lost time quickly now that he has 24/7 parents and a stable home life. They’ve had lots of family discussions about explaining how he came into their life when the time comes; honesty is what my other adopted friends appreciated the most when they were told by their parents. I have no doubt your cousin will handle all this with style too.

We’re gonna get slammed tomorrow for being sentimental threadjackers, but those two girls look like happiness embodied.

Oh, worry not, stringonastick. My cousin-in-law is a trained English speaker; my cousin is a weird and happy and eccentric, sweet kind human being, and in the end these two kids will have INFINITELY better chance at a good life for what my cousins did.

Plus, being from a very large family over a very long period of time gives one insight into the whole parenting thing, and I’ve no doubt they’ll be way better than most.

I’m so proud of them I could scream.

It’s going to be all I can do to leave the poor darlings alone to play with those their age. Of which there should be at least 6 others.

It will be very heartwarming and fun and laughter-filled, which is what the holidays were built for.

LOL….yeah, but jeez, it’s late, and plenty of people have had time to change the subject back to “important things.” 🙂

The first pictures we all got showed a very interesting, when thought about broadly, fascination with water. The loved playing with the hose in the yard; they were astounded by fountains; they live in Minneapolis-St.Paul, and water abounds.

It wasn’t hard to tell that water was a built-in big deal to them.

Ah, so that’s where your comments about water came from. I don’t suppose they saw a lot of that in Ethiopia. They probably didn’t see a whole lot of freezing weather either so that fleece idea isn’t a bad one! How about some water toys? Bathtime fun and all that.

Have a great Thanksgiving wtih the family, and I’ll bet the time you spend with them tomorrow will tell you all you need to know for Christmas.

🙂 Yes, the cold will be their latest new thing, though by now I imagine they’re learning to understand it. Think about SNOW!

Personally, I’m guessing, and again this is with the parents in mind, who will make it a sure thing, I think that the girls will think it is the greatest thing ever.

I will have a great Thanksgiving, they all are, my new friend and intriguing woman. You, too.

I hope you’re right about knowing about Christmas, but it won’t matter in the end. They will know they are loved, the greatest Christmas present of all.

I just want them to think “Uncle” (actually cousin, but we’ve long since given up on that concept) John is the coolest of them all. Already have one other cousin convinced. *strut*

To all a good night.

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody.

Thank you, seconded, and same to you.

Happy Thanksgiving to one and all !