Our new shame
A surprisingly useful op-ed in the WaPo today from retired JAG Evan Wallach:
The media usually characterize the practice as “simulated drowning.” That’s incorrect. To be effective, waterboarding is usually real drowning that simulates death. That is, the victim experiences the sensations of drowning: struggle, panic, breath-holding, swallowing, vomiting, taking water into the lungs and, eventually, the same feeling of not being able to breathe that one experiences after being punched in the gut. The main difference is that the drowning process is halted. According to those who have studied waterboarding’s effects, it can cause severe psychological trauma, such as panic attacks, for years.
The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government — whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community — has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it.
After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: “I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure.” He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. “Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning,” he replied, “just gasping between life and death.”
Congratulations, America! You’ve now adopted the same set of loathsome interrogation techniques used by Japan in World War II!
This is, incidentally, why opposing the Mukasey nomination is so important. If you can’t say whether simulating death through forced drowning is really “torture,” then you have zero common moral sensibility, and are clearly unfit to hold the office of the highest law enforcement officer in the country. It would have been nice for America’s “opposition” party to set a clear standard stating that anyone who gives weaselly, evasive answers about whether waterboarding constitutes torture will be automatically tossed into the Borkian reject pile. But once again, our brave fightin’ Dems are caving.
I didn’t ever really expect great things from the Democrats, but in my worst nightmares I didn’t expect them to suck this badly. The only thing that’s stopping me from not voting in ’08 is horrifying visions of Preznit Rudy.
It’s just like you liberals to want to draw moral equivalence between the Japs in World War II and heroic American troops trying to spread freedom!
The Japanese also used bullets in the Second World War….do you propose we disarm our soldiers, too?
Indeed – how dare we suggest “moral equivalence” with guys who did exactly the same thing as we’re doing. All that stuff about judging men by their actions is obviously a load of silly PC moonbat nonsense.
I call Fucking Cretinous Douchebag Gary, fake or otherwise.
” Spreading freedom”
Like an infectious disease…
Mr. Schumer said his decision had been “extremely difficult,” and that a big factor was Mr. Mukasey’s opinion, conveyed to him this afternoon, that “were Congress to pass a law banning certain interrogation techniques, we would clearly be acting within our constitutional authority.”
===============
60 years of International treaties not withstanding.
“Glug, glug, glug, spurtle-spritz-glug-glmph-urk-gack-spffitzz”
I’d like to try some water boarding on my very own Sen. Feinstein (Demonrat-Calif. )
I see that Central Kraut Time is now 10 hrs. ahead. That should make it easier to tell what time it is!!
Freedom is like peanut butter: Brown, creamy & easy to spread.
We think preznit Rudy would be a good thing:
We’re starting to look forward to a Giuliani presidency. He seems willing to express his rage, rather than repress it Bush-style. And that’s bound to be more amusing. And we’re only in it for the laughs. And the Schadenfreude.
PoliShifter said…
If Giuliani manages to weasel into the white house (there’s no way he can win legitimately) by getting appointed as Bush was by the SCOTUS in 2000, or stealing votes like Bush did in 2004 then I’m outta here.
He’ll be Bush on steroids. It will be torture terror for all, super spying on anyone, the rounding up of political enemies and dissidents, and of course a bomb for every nation on eath that opposes U.S. hegemony.
Well, yeah, but then we’ll have something truly evil to revolt against. Once a few suburban scumbags get splintery plungers up their asses, people won’t be as apathetic as under Bush & his “keep shopping” approach to “Fatherland Security.” Giuliani seems as likely to express his rage on us as on un-Americans. And we can’t think of a more deserving
people. (Why do we hate America? Americans!!)
Ah, who am I kidding? The average American has been taking it up the coal chute for so long he, she, or it wouldn’t notice either end of a plunger up there.
Hey, new blockquote style?
New blockquote non-style. What. Ever.
Shame? Our shame? America knows no shame. It should be ashamed of its little girls dressing like slutty French maids for extra candy on Halloween, their young limbs so delicately outlined in fishnet stockings, their…but I digress. We should never feel shame at defending our country from the hordes of the other, whatever they may be, and however we must defend ourselves.
The only thing that’s stopping me from not voting in ‘08 is horrifying visions of Preznit Rudy.
You read my mind.
Doolittle & his raiders were pirate terrorists who deserved everything they got.
Has anyone asked a gomer:
If al-Q captures a US soldier and waterboards him, is THAT torture?
And the real issue with Mukasey is his refusal to say the president is never above the law. S’funny you don’t hear any Democrats bitching about that.
Why do the democrats hate themselves so much? The republican keep pointing a gun at their own head, and just before the pulls the trigger the democrats dive in and take the bullet for them.
Waterboarding. Doesn’t Cameron Diaz do that in a bikini? Anyway, greetings from your fellow Humor Blog Finalist. Bossy is the one with frizzy hair in your rearview mirror.
The only thing that’s stopping me from not voting in ‘08 is horrifying visions of Preznit Rudy.
Exactly my take.
I love that quote from Chuck Schumer, where he talked to his buddy Mukasey who told him that, “were Congress to pass a law banning certain interrogation techniques, we would clearly be acting within our constitutional authority.”
Got that Chucky? All you need are 2/3 of both houses on board passing a bill that says we can’t waterboard terrorists (by which we mean brown people who sorta, kinda, look terrorist-ish) and your BFF might decide to enforce it as Attorney General! Good luck getting that done without most of your party folding like a weak lawn chair, let alone the Republicans who still cling to Mr. 25% for some reason.
Seriously though, do these Dems really think we’re just as stupid and spineless as them…wait, don’t answer that.
The Dem Congress has indeed been a horrifying disappointment. Even if we completely ignore the moral dimensions of torture, for a group of politicians, they are astoundingly tone-deaf. Poll after poll after poll shows overwhelming majorities of voters detest Bush and his policies. Yet, perhaps under the influences of DLC “centrists” like Marshall Whitman and Holy Joe, the Democrats continue to enable Bush’s every whim.
If we had a real opposition party, Bush would be reduced to a quivering mass by this point. Instead, he’s bolder than ever and the country we all grew up in is now just a distant a pleasant memory.
serious question:
How can a political party (dems, dat would be) be so arrestingly incompetent as to fumble the following position: “America Does Not and Will Never Torture.” Think about this for a minute. That is a level of incompetence the fathomability of is un-.
oblligatory gallows snark:
I would like at this moment to waterboard Feinstein with an urn full of double-half-caff-low-fat-triple-macchiattos. Schumer, in honor of his new hero status in Wingbattia, should be waterboarded with Cheetos ‘n’ Dew
That’s incorrect. To be effective, waterboarding is usually real drowning that simulates death.
I “scooped” the Washington Post!
Oh god I’m cool
Yet, perhaps under the influences of DLC “centrists” like Marshall Whitman and Holy Joe, the Democrats continue to enable Bush’s every whim.
Don’t forget the “Democratic Strategists” such as Mark Penn and Donna Brazile, and all their inside the Beltway admirers. The Overton window could never have been shifted so far towards pro-torture right wing batshittery without their feckless enablement.
THE DEMOCRATS CARE MORE ABOUT THE TERRORISTS THAN AMERICANS
THE TERRORISTS DONT WATERBOARD THEY JUST CUT YOUR HEAD OFF
How dare anyone morally equivocate Jap torture with US aggressive interrogation!
When the Japs did it, they deserved to be hung for war crimes.
Since it is simply impossible for any American or the US goverment to commit a war crime, therefore it is not only legal, but a moral neccessity for the US to torture every brown person or liberal white person we can get our hands on!!!
And since the Inquisition was committed by white people (even though they spoke that devil toungue, Spanish), that waterboarding was not torture either. And niether was the Strappado (stress positions).
So when brown people do it to white people, it’s torture. When whtie people do it to brown people, it is NOT torture! There is no moral equivalence!
Even Gary Ruppert agrees with that one!!!1!!!1!!!!!!1!!!!!!
Hmm, I’m guessing American citizens detained as “enemy combatants” have been waterboarded, among other tortures.
Why do wingnuts always assume it couldn’t happen to them?
Well this certainly dovetails nicely with the notion that George Bush is less comparable to Winston Churchill than to Hideki Tojo.
‘Moral equivalence’ is one of those made-up terms that doesn’t actually mean anything in English, but like a dog whistle, only means something to the 26% of Americans that are insane.
The sad fact is that most Americans have no problem with torture. At least a third of Americans would support televised executions (let the crooks know what’s coming to them!). Remember that there was significant wingnut support for the Singaporean caning of an American expatriate a few years back. A significant percentage of Americans have always been supportive of human torture and remain so today.
THE TERRORISTS DONT WATERBOARD THEY JUST CUT YOUR HEAD OFF
YES BUT WE ARE WORKING ON A VERY GOOD SIMULATED HEAD-CUT-OFF DEVICE. IT’S A BIT RUDIMENTARY — SO FAR IT’S BASICALLY A GUILLOTINE WHERE THE BLADE FALLS NOISILY TO WITHIN A MILLIMETER OF YOUR NECK, WHILE A PROSTHETIC CHOPPED-OFF HEAD MADE TO LOOK LIKE YOURS IS TOSSED INTO THE BASKET YOU’RE STARING IT, STREAMING PIG’S BLOOD FROM THE NECK (NICE TOUCH, THE PIG’S BLOOD; WOGS HATE THAT), AND THEN HELD UP FOR YOU TO STARE INTO THE BUGGED-OUT EYES OF. EARLY RESULTS ARE FAVORABLE.
“Why do wingnuts always assume it couldn’t happen to them?”
Good question, and here’s the answer:
Wingnuts (in spite of their chest-thumping claim of being “realists”) live in an imaginary world. Clearly the religious nutz do, but even the non-religious.
By “imaginary” I mean, a world that starts with emotion, and then looks around for the “evidence” in “the real world” (sorry for all the “scare quotes”) to substantiate it. Not even to assuage or solve it, mind you. But to prove the feeling is correct.
They START with fear. They get out of bed with resentment and victimhood. Then they find “evidence” (from Bush, Rush, etc.) to confirm it.
That’s why your Malkins, your Confed. Yank-offs, etc., are so dogged and triumphant when they find an error in reporting or a Clinton-Lewinsky lie. It confirms their deeply unself-aware world view and encourages them to continue to ignore the rest of the entire fucking world–including the effects ON THEM of the policies they blindly/triumphantly support.
(/smarty pants)
“Why do wingnuts always assume it couldn’t happen to them?”
—
See wingnut reaction to Miranda v. Arizona in the 1960s and 1970s.
Wingnuts said Miranda was “coddling criminals” and “handcuffing law enforcement.” But funny thing that when wingnuts get arrested they know their “Miranda Rights” quite well and are quite glad to have them.
probably too late for her to notice, but…
Greetings Bossy,
I wandered over for the first time last night and couldn’t put you down. Laughed until 3 in the morning. Good styling and fun over there.
Sorry to say this, but as long as delude yourself into believing that the Democrats are wimps “under the influence of DLC centrists”, you are going to be disappointed again. The liberal leadership is very happy about people like Joe Lieberman – they are such a great excuse, making it usually unneccessary for liberals to vote for all that war funding and torture business.
Still, if I had a vote, I’d vote for Nixon if it kept Rudy out of the White House. There’s a difference between a reactionary president and an insane president; and I’d go for the insane one only if I saw some chance it would lead to a revolution. Right now, I don’t.
Whoa. I clicked over to Bossy, and now it’s an hour later!
Good blog, Bossy!
Stupid Liebrals! What the hell do retired JAG officers know about military life or international law? Besides, 9/11 changed everything, so which is why we HAVE to commit actions that were war crimes in the pre-9/11 world!
I sent an email to Senator Feinstein this morning urging her to reconsider her position on Mukasey. Several other Californians must have had the same idea, because lo and behold, she just announced that she would not be supporting his appointment.
Dare I say that maybe there is still hope for our democracy?
Hey Mr.Bouffant your post is one of the reasons your on my daily RSS.Good work man,well said.Hope you got your damn DSL back.
Well, that’s the problem. We have to get the insane one in office working his or her magic before the conditions/desire for bloody revolution in the streets become apparent. You’ll remember this tactic worked well for all the leftist Euro-terror groups in the ’70s. (OK, maybe not, but it’s worth one more try.)
And thanks DEMIZE! Yes, the DSL is back, but I’m about to become homeless, so it’s sort of academic.
Is waterboarding “torture”? I know the answer to this question personally.
When I was four my parents were staying at Gilbert’s Hotel in the Catskills. A counselor was supposed to take me into the pool because I couldn’t swim.
It turned out the counselor “wasn’t feeling well” that day (years later i was told she wouldn’t go in the water because she ahd ehr period). So she let me go in by myself.
The bottom o f the pool was slippery and the water was past my waist. After taking a few steps I suddenly slipped and went under.
I still recall the feeling of wild panic as I slipped below the surface. Of course I was rescued a few seconds later but it is almost fifty years later and I still recall with absolute clarity that moment when I thought it was all over.
Naturally no one inflicted this on me. It was simply an accident something that happened. But to deliberately induce this unforgettable and horrible feeling in another human being? You’re gonna tell me that is NOT torture?
Impossible. How could there even be any question about it?
Unfortunately, we have vapid columnists in Canada too. I don’t think I’ll even bother writing to the Editor over this piece of s**t – don’t want to give them the attention. This column suggests that because others are barbaric, we should be too. It also compares waterboarding to being on the high school swim team. One wonders if Ms Marsden would like to meet me at the pool to test her ‘theories’.
http://www.torontosun.com/Comment/2007/11/05/4631705-sun.html
btw Don’t they use truth serum anymore? Wouldn’t that be easier? On everybody?
“I didn’t ever really expect great things from the Democrats, but in my worst nightmares I didn’t expect them to suck this badly.”
We suck well, so that you don’t have to….yeah.
Right Wing Wackos miss the fact that if we do what the enemy does, we are no better than the enemy.
This is the planet of the Golden Rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That is simple enough that even a RRWacko should be able to understand it. If we use the waterboard on “them”, then we have no moral highground to demand that they do NOT use the waterboard on our boys.
Therefore we can conclude that our present “regime” does not care for the welfare of any single soldier. What is the value of one soldier this way or that? Our regime only cares about the “army” … that is, the mass of soldiers.
Here’s something so subtle that the RRWackos cannot possibly comprehend it: “The Shambala Warrior that practices mercy is without fear.”