Shorter Uncle Jimbo
Posted on October 31st, 2007 by Gavin M.
My Increasing Support Of Waterboarding
- The counterterrorism expert Malcolm Nance wrote an informative, definitive and persuasive piece for Small Wars Journal titled Waterboarding Is Torture, Period, which nonetheless fails in that I shall keep on quibbling smugly over the definition of torture.
‘Shorter’ concept created by Daniel Davies and perfected by Elton Beard.
Is that a latte he’s holding there?
It’s hard to take anyone who calls himself Uncle Jimbo: sounds very Unserious.
I wonder how he did on his SERE training?
Uncle Jimbo vs. Confederate Yankee measuring contest, coming soon to your internets.
yes, Uncle Jimbo, like; “… stay away from uncle jimbo kids, he’s not been quite the same since the accident….. “
The fact is, waterboarding isn’t torture. I believe that it should be a part of our arsenal against Islamofacist terrorists. In fact, I’ll go one further. I believe that we should allow methods that truly are torture if it is decided that the person being interrogated has information that could help us prevent an immenant attack. The old “there’s a bomb about to explode and take out a US City, and the prisoner knows where it is… do we torture him to get the information” scenario. Well, forgive me, but I say yes. Do whatever is necessary to get the information and stop the attack. Even if it means torturing the prisoner.
The fact is, conservatards don’t give a shit what’s torture and what isn’t. They’ll support whatever is opposed by liberals and make up dorky excuses for it no matter what.
And that means you would not denounce another government from torturing Americans if they felt it was necessary in the given context, Gary?
Anti-American terrorist…
mikey
mikey said,
October 31, 2007 at 3:55
And that means you would not denounce another government from torturing Americans if they felt it was necessary in the given context, Gary?
They already do. They laugh at our rules and ethnics. They think we are chumps. Kill them all.
You will only get a lot of bad information, and torture a lot of innocent people, Gary. (An overly earnest reply, to a no doubt fake Gary.)
And I wonder how many terrorists we create, when we behave no better than a gang of terrorists.
Think about that, Gary, while you’re hiding under your bed, pissing your underoos, and praying to Dick Cheney.
The fact is, liberals do not have the stomach for the long war against islamofascism. The enemy keeping us from winning is the Liberal, with their bias and handwringing over “torture” and “ethnics” when They Are Trying To Kill Us. The liberal is the enemy within, I do not need to prove it further, the evidence is in and I am right. The Liberal must be consigned to the camps or destroyed if we in the heartland are to save our sacred way of life. By the way, MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Ahhh, torture. The New American Way.
The only way to resolve this argument, it seems to me, is for videos of actual, involuntary waterboarding sessions to be shown to everyone. When the show is over, anyone who still supports the practice should then be drafted into the US Army and sent to guard the Antarctic and Greenland Ice Sheets, to prevent the terrorists from melting them and flooding New York.
Hey, at least it’ll get rid of the assholes.
You will only get a lot of bad information, and torture a lot of innocent people, Gary.
If the information saves one American life (even a liberal), torture all of them till they die, as far as we care in the Heartland. They are NOT innocent. They are the Enemy.
“The old “there’s a bomb about to explode and take out a US City, and the prisoner knows where it is… do we torture him to get the information” scenario.”
Gary, when has something even remotely similar ever happened? Name ten such incidents in the history of the world, and I’ll concede that point. Otherwise it’s just a sad attempt to confuse the issue.
I support any so-called “torture” that saves American lives and protects American interests, including those of you much hated “Halibutron”, who employ many people and keep us safe. You are a bunch of weak fags.
Comrade Mikey ‘splains it correctly: the protections offered by the Geneva Conventions (“how quaint!”) protect American personnel, since last I heard, they were the only ones in uniform and so easy to pick out. Anyone who thinks waterboarding is acceptable is agreeing that it’s OK for Americans to endure it.
Doesn’t sound like anything civilized people would use.
The fact is, there are always ticking bombs on TV, it could happen at any time. We must have torture in our arsenhole of freedom, or we will surrender. Liberals would love to surrender and become part of the califate.
I thought “My Increasing Support of Waterboarding” was part of teh joke.
Sadly, no.
Man, that piece by Nance is tremendous. Thanks for linking it.
Um, let me guess: We will never know., for these are secrets that cannot be shared with the enemy.
When done right it is controlled death. Its lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threaten with its use again and again.
Doesn’t sound like anything civilized people would use.
The fact is, it works and we should use it, weak fags.
I thought we were giving them the gift of freedom, Gary. Now they are all the Enemy? Even the unborn ones?
How soon the sweet memory of purple thumbs dissipates, after a swarm of incompetent neocons squander a hundred billion bucks or two.
Why don’t you just let our President and our Military do their job? Why do liberals need to hogtie them at every end with ehtnics and things that make us loose? What is wrong with you morans?
The fact is, Gary:
Here’s shit.
Here’s shinola.
You can’t tell the difference, and you prove it ever time you hit “submit comment”.
1-800-USA-ARMY, chickenshit.
Shorter Gary
“we must torture middle eastern men so I can put all liiberals in camps”
Gary Ruppert said,
October 31, 2007 at 4:05
Why don’t you just let our President and our Military do their job? Why do liberals need to hogtie them at every end with ehtnics and things that make us loose? What is wrong with you morans?
That would go right up on there with Merkin Patriot’s all time bests over at Atrios. Gary Ruppert, performance troll.
They laugh at our rules and ethnics.
Oh, that wacky George Lopez.
Thanks for making us laugh and learn about life.
Again.
Gary…like osama bin ladin..wants to torture people to spread his ideology
I’m pretty sure this is a fake Gary. I mean, “there are always ticking bombs on TV, it could happen at any time.” That can’t be real.
No..I’ve read his early work when he trolled atrios…thats either a really good fake gary or the real gary is off of his meds
I never look to see whether it’s real-Gary or not. It would only spoil the fun.
Yow! Weak fags are being hogtied by ethnics!
It pretty much has to be a fake-Gary. The real Gary was cold and bloodless, unwilling or unable to actually come out and say “exterminate the brutes” or to call us here at S, N! “weak fags”. No, that’s the mark of someone with vim and vigor in their step, either a troll looking for flames, or one of our own playing the goat.
…or one of our own playing the goat.
That rules out Mickey Kaus. He’s not wanna us.
The Gary Ruppert I knew would never speak of himself in the first person. He was too objective. This one’s a Ruppert-wannabe; a Gary-manque.
They laugh at our rules and ethnics
You have to admit, some of those ethnics are pretty damn funny. The Scandinavians come to mind for some reason.
I think Gary’s got a point here. I mean, I heard that this scenario actually happened on a television show and Kiefer was able to save the day because he tortured the guy. It could happen in real life, you know?
Much more relevant to the torture question: Should torture be used on a guy who never had anything to do with terrorism who was fingered by an old rival who hated his guts and had become a trusted U.S. military source?
I mean, maybe we should put a least a little weight on the scenario that has actually happened.
What say you, Gary? I eagerly await your Talking Point, er, response.
Pls. tell me you all reply to “Gary” for the sport of it. Because there is no other good reason. It’s like “boxing” with one of those knock-down/bounce up inflatable figures. It’s for its own sake, not to actually defeat a (fake, inflatable) opponent.
Kill them all.
Just like that, huh? Nothing to it. Just dig a trench, line them up, and bam, bam, bam, bam. Put a round behind the ear, give ’em a little nudge, and they fall right in the hole. All of ’em, right Gary? Men, women, children.
You ever had somebody elses blood on you? You ever had to pick the pieces of human out of your belt, your gear? You know what happens when a high velocity round hits a human being? You know what it sounds like? You know what comes out? You know what it SMELLS like after a long afternoon and night when you couldn’t pick the dead off the wire? You know what it smells like when a couple of rounds of 50 BMG tracer do what they do? Kinda like a pork roast, actually. Except you come home, your mom makes a pork roast ’cause you always liked it, and you throw up and start to cry uncontrollably.
Yeah, Gary. You’re a brave, ready gun. Go gettem, big guy…
mikey
This might go back to the first post about Unca Jimbo-bob, but the fact that the one dude confessed to 9/11 AND Daniel Pearl – that doesn’t make him a bit suspicious about the effectiveness of torture? Did he also confess to the assassination attempt on the Pope? To giving John Hinckley the gun that shot the bullet that bounced off of Reagan? To being the mastermind of the faked moon landing?
And if he’s such a fan of torture – just keep writing, dude. That’s painful enough.
inflatable opponent
What? I never even could defeat my inflatable wife…
mikey
Damn. We just got pounded with a righteous earthquake. Power and ‘net still up, I guess it’s not the big one.
Still, I’ve got a bit of a mess on my hands…
mikey
Yeek. How bad? Anything on the radio or TV yet?
It’s only to build up our “arsenhole”, Snorghagen!
c’mon this is clearly Fake Gary. Real Gary was never that funny, intentionally or otherwise.,
Oh, mikey. I hope it won’t turn out to be too bad!
get a brain morans! the last sentence is the fake-gary dead giveaway, y’all.
Gary’s funny! And debating Gary’s authenticity ruins it!
(Unless it’s Kevin faking Gary. Like right now. Then debating it is fine.)
oh yeah candy! “arsenhole” also gives it away. better luck next time, fake gary!
Had the warriors game from oakland on the tube, they didn’t even notice.
It was a helluva shake from here, and I’ve been here most of my life.
I guess the epicenter was pretty much my living room.
All my neighbors came out, I made sure nobody was freakin out. It really felt like we were going to pop some windows, but other than some broken dishes in the kitch and my medicine cabinet deciding to empty itself out into the sink, it’s another nothing.
But thing is, we’re due. That was pretty violent from couch central….
mikey
The USGS reports magnitude 5.6, epicenter just northeast of San Jose (map).
USGS has it now.
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/Quakes/nc40204628.php
A 5.6 a couple miles from my ass. Quite a ride…
mikey
“Ethnics and Arsenholes” it’s like Crimson and Clover but funkier! Thank you fake gary I’m still busting a gut!!
Come on! There’s like 3 fake Garys in here!
Emm said,
October 31, 2007 at 5:14
“Why don’t you just let our President and our Military do their job? Why do liberals need to hogtie them at every end with ehtnics and things that make us loose? What is wrong with you morans?”
get a brain morans! the last sentence is the fake-gary dead giveaway, y’all.
I disagree. Morans! was over teh top.
The Merkin Patriot quality part of the comment was, “Why do liberals need to hogtie them at every end with ehtnics and things that make us loose?”
From the San Jose Mercury News’ first report:
TPM’s found another Republican boner yearning to breathe free.
Off topic, but isn’t the Sadly crew going to offend the xtianists this year with some Hallowe’en/Samhain stuff? Although it just won’t be the same without Annie.
yeah, ifthethunderdontgetya, you’re right. the part about making us “loose” was pretty obvious. there are a few ways to interpret “loose” though, sexually being more pleasant, intestinally somewhat less….
i sometimes wonder if somewhere out there, perhaps in his Halliburton ICE deportation camp, Real Gary gets access to the internets and stops by S,N! to marvel at the many homages paid to him in comments here…. do you think a tear comes to his eye?
RB is onto something here, tell me if you can find out what it is:
“He didn’t make any threats against this guy (Curtis),” added Castanga’s attorney, David Partovi. “This is an extremely a low-level situation that’s being blown out of proportion by somebody who is trying to save themselves.”
Ah, RB, the story is getting all too familiar . . .
Soon the dems won’t have to worry about elections anymore. There’ll be no more Republicans to run against, at least none of the “family values” guys.
Hokay, then. We’re mostly swept up, picked up and put away. At least I can get up in the morning and NOT have to immediately put on sneakers.
The only real casualty was a big, heavy ceramic soup bowl with handles my mom gave me for christmas. Not a piece bigger than a quarter left.
I love that tacky earthquake putty, the wax, all that shit, so most of my knicky-knacky shit stayed put. I’ve got some carved kenyan figurines I really like, and they all jumped down to the floor, but they’ll get an extra dose of the sticky this weekend.
The worst noise was from a big black 6-cell Kel light I keep on the top shelf in the hall closet. When it hit the floor, it sounded like the back of the house fell off.
Ok. What’d I miss. Is our Gary’s learning?
mikey
Mikey,DAP Blu-Putty.I use it for my Japanese toys,works great,removable,doesn’t stain.
mikey, they is!
Glad you’re okay, mikey. Preparedness helps.
Assuming Gary the First is a realgary and not fauxtroll, let me take a shot at this.
If you honestly believe that the guy in front of you can be persuaded to give up information that will save a million lives which are currently in imminent danger from a ticking bomb, you will presumably do whatever it takes to save them. Hell, I might see what I can do, too. God knows I’ve beaten the shit out of a couple of guys to save far fewer people from things less devastating than a bomb. So, you know, have at it.
When you are arrested and brought to trial, you are welcome to demonstrate that your actions saved the lives of a million people from a ticking bomb. I’m guessing the jury will not convict you.
Unless, of course, it turns out you had the wrong guy. Or you got the wrong information. Or there was no bomb. Or you killed the guy’s kid to get him to talk. Or you could have gotten the information from him by asking his ex-girlfriend or tapping his phones back when you first spotted him six months ago. Or you tortured several dozen people who turned out to be completely innocent and the ensuring bad information they gave you to get you to stop meant people died in the panic getting away from a bomb that didn’t exist. You know, something like that. Under those circumstances, I would think most juries would convict you.
But why not give the justice system at least a peek into it? If you think we’re not torturing innocent people, if you think it’s saving innocent lives, if you think it’s not actually torture, well, then, open the gulag doors and let’s all get a good clean look at what’s going on and why and who’s doing it and what it’s solving.
If you’re gonna tell me that you need to torture because under certain conditions it’s the only way to save millions of lives, then I expect you to at least *try* to prove that. And apparently the only way to make the folks who are currently claiming that try to prove it is to take them to court and force them to defend themselves against the criminal charges.
If there are circumstances under which torture is justifiable, then the people doing it ought to be able to justify it.
I doubt that laws against waterboarding would in themselves prevent someone who honestly felt it was the only way to stop a ticking bomb from doing it. I doubt that even the certainty of a prison sentence would stop someone who knew they could save a million lives. But it might stop those who think waterboarding everybody in the block could reveal some useful information. And that, we damned well should be preventing.
Shorter D. Sidhe:
If you think its worth the crime then do the fucking time…
We must have torture in our arsenhole of freedom, or we will surrender…
Surrendering his “arsenhole of freedom”? I think we’ve just learned more about this Garybot’s sexual fantasies than I really wanted to know.
Almost certainly a spoof, but definitely a trollpost to be preserved for the ages, so that future historians will have some idea of the Marianas-Trench-like depths to which the Last Twenty-Odd Percenters sank just before the end of the Repubs as a political power.
Or at least be *willing to risk the time*.
Actually, my point was more sort of “If there are no penalties for torturing, or even for torturing the wrong people, then there’s no incentive to make sure it really is a ticking-bomb scenario, and what’s to stop us from torturing everyone just in case?”
But this is really only a problem if we worry that a government might abuse its authority.
Do not neglect to click through to the pretentious and ridiculous posting “On the virtues of killing children” by Grim, which Jimbo links to so approvingly. http://www.blackfive.net/main/2006/08/on_the_virtues_.html
Grim imagines a dialogue with a bleeding heart liberal who lacks the ability to reason logically.
“‘It must be,” I tell her sadly, ‘Here: That we pursue war without thought of the children. That we do not turn aside from the death of the innocent, but push on to the conclusion, through all fearful fire. If we do that, the children will lose their value as hostages, and as targets: if we love them, we must harden our hearts against their loss. Ours and theirs.'”
OK. If we have to murder innocent children to reduce their value as hostages, what’s the problem with torturing them to make their parents tell us the truth about the ticking time bomb? I mean, lives saved all around, and much better to torture them than kill them, right? And, hey, their parents may be just as innocent as they are, since they haven’t had a trial before they’re waterboarded and aggressively interrogated. Maybe all they did was annoy a neighbor who has a dispute with them over water rights. Without judicial oversight, who knows? So if they have no rights, why should children? It’s all about being pragmatic. If waterboarding somebody’s kid in front of them gets you the location of the ticking time bomb, then I think we should change the Constitution to recognize that fear trumps principle in every single situation.
TV scenarios make the kind of law that appeals to TV addicted Americans.
Come on people, the U.S. doesn’t stand for anything except survival, and we’ll shed any principle to keep fearful citizens from anxiety. Wasn’t it Ben Franklin who said “They who would give up illusionary security for liberty are totally wrong about their priorities. Who cares about liberty when you;ve got a choice of more than a hundred TV channels.”
he fact is, there are always ticking bombs on TV, it could happen at any time.
There are also always Acme anvil catapults on TV, too.
Mikey, I hope everything is OK.
On the virtues of killing children
Ah. I was just waiting for one of the wingnuts to resurrect the age-old adage “Nits make lice.”
Now I’m in love with D. Sidhe…
Dammit cowalker. I’ve been only just recently coming out of another depressive funk and you had to remind me of that horrible shitheel?
People suck. (reverting back to funk)
Now I’m in love with D. Sidhe…
Perfectly understandable.
I was once hauled off with a bus full of fellow students for causing what I know was a worthwhile ruckus. We were all arrested processed and fined accordingly. A few weeks later efforts were being made in court to get us all off and I crowed to my housemate about this inevitable triumph. She blew up at me: I was bragging about having absolutely nothing on the line for my cause.
A few weeks later all the fines were rescinded but I’d already been down to the station to pay mine.
Well, our beloved Security Police used to waterboard people all the time. (Captain Jeff Benzien did an impressive display at his application to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission — no joke.)
And if they hadn’t waterboarded people, you know, South Africa might be run by the ANC today.
mikey, wow- we just had a little shaky, no breaky.
Also, DA is all over Grim in Grim’s choady post.
I defy anyone to read through that entire Grim post without vomiting.
And I’m not even talking about the obviously reprehensible nature of the content. Just the writing.
Sweet Jesus, the horror.
Damn ethnics get in the way of everything. Must be those giant arsenholes they have.
A more realistic “ticking bomb” scenario would of course be if a US pilot is shot down and captured. The ticking bomb isn’t hypothetical here as the pilot certainly knows lots of things that can save thousands of innocent lives – weakness of the bombers, when the next attack is coming and so forth. Or imagine if Iran captured a US diplomat and his family, wouldn’t they be justified (using pro-torture non-logic) in torturing the diplomats spouse and children if it meant that they could find out information that could stop the US attack on Iran, which could kill millions?
As a side note, North Vietnam stopped torturing their US POWs in 1972, not sure if they laughed at their ethnic though.
Apparently right wing hypothesizing that Al Qa’ida and Guatemalan illegal immigrants started the California fires was proven exactly correct.
Except that it appears that the fires were started by a boy playing with matches, and the liberal fire and police officials won’t admit that the boy is an Al Qa’ida illegal Guatemalan sleeper immigrant.
Arghh the circularity it burns!
By the way, what’s with all the re-directs latel? You guys must really be getting under the wingnuts skin, every time you link to them they seem to want to direct folks elsewhere.
Pretty hilarious considering you are one of the only outlets who links to these fools, most folks don’t want to bother giving them the traffic.
Yeah, cause as we all know, the Islamofascistbiggestthreattowesterncivilizationevah always plant bombs with those blinking LED countdown clocks (that for some reason take five time longer to count down than an actual clock) that are found in the nick of time after torturing some nefarious bad guy for the location. Then, our hero manages to cut the red wire just as the clock hits 00:00:03. Happens all the time.
Terrorists (or “folks” as W refers to them) also use the LED countdown clocks that pause during the commercial breaks.
If torture is permissible in cases where large numbers of people are about to die, in fact, if it is necessary and just, then it is permissible, necessary, and just when one single solitary individual is threatened with death.
And logically it is permissible, necessary, and just when there is even the suspicion of harm faced by one individual.
And therefore by using today’s rightwing “ticking time bomb” hack justification of torture by Bush Jr., it turns out that torture is not just ALWAYS OKAY, it is ALWAYS REQUIRED.
In the 19th century, waterboarding was once a common “treatment” for stubborn prisoners…that should tell you something right there.
Oh, and it wasn’t uncommon for them to be waterboarded to DEATH.
The right wingers’ disappointment that the Buckweed fire wasn’t started by an illegal immigrant is only temporary. Give the mighty Wurlitzer a few minutes to change tracks, and we’ll soon hear how it was all the fault of liberal parenting or working mothers or the teachers’ union that the boy played with matches.
El Cid, I’m sure that once Michelle Malkin applies her incredible journamalism skillz, we’ll find out that the kid who started the fire in Santa Clarita was a SCHIP kid.
The duty to embrace extralegal methods does not end with the president. Ordinary citizens could risk the lives of thousands by voting for a president who is too weak to do What Must Be Done!
My question is, since there could be a ticking time bomb somewhere in the world, is it A) permissible or B) obligatory to torture citizens who do not support torture? Our safety (and especially yours) depends on the answer!
Not enough comments here have pointed out the ginormous nature of Jimbo’s arsenhole, to wit:
Malcolm Nance wrote a piece for Small Wars Journal titled “Waterboarding is torture, period” . . . it was informative, definitive and persuasive. It just didn’t and won’t persuade me. . . without going into the whys of that, let me pose a simple question. If waterboarding is torture and torture is illegal, then didn’t Congress break the law every year when they passed a military budget that contains funds specifically dedicated to conducting waterboarding as a matter of course?
What I like about Jimbo is that he’s pre-satirized for our protection.
You know, while snark is always fun, I’m beginning to feel terribly sad and disturbed that there are so many people who actually defend torture. Even the trolls. It’s not even funny to counter Gary anymore – what he’s saying is truly despicable. It’s like saul – I just don’t even want to be in the same virtual “room” as a person who advocates torture.
It takes the fun out of it.
I still say, if we prosecuted the Nazis for it, and if Solzhenitsyn wrote about the Soviets doing it to him, it’s torture, and the people who do it now — and the people who approve its use — should be tried for war crimes.
The ticking time bomb scenario is stupid.
1) An average person can jack around their interrogators with false information long enough for the bomb to go off. For a prepared terrorist with a martyrdom complex and the knowledge that he is about to kill 50-100k of his tormentor’s countrymen if he just keeps screwing around, it’s even easier.
2) Assuming you know the location, it’s not that easy to just roll in and disable a thermonuclear device. It’s probably gonna detonate no matter what you do.
“Gary” has been busted. His original post on this thread, the one at 3:52, is merely a cut-and-paste from an Uncle Jimbo commenter named “Jim C.” Our very lame Gary impersonator just copied the post and re-worded it at the top to include Gary’s famous “the fact is” catchphrase.
The ticking time bomb works on the assumption that all the pieces have been put together already – that there IS a bomb that can somehow be disarmed; that it’s a TIME bomb; what time the bomb will go off; and that the suspect in custody knows where it is.
I cannot imagine a scenario where all these disparate factors would easily come together.
Instead, I think people are interrogated to reveal facts like – What coffee house did your neighbor go to? What did the professor say in class? What time did you hear the sound of trucks going by your house? Who gave you that gun?
I think torture happens when the interrogators don’t like the answers they get.
Here’s the definition of “torture” I use:
Cruel and Unusual
Your problem is that you think laws and standards are written to apply equally to all people.
Reasonable people look at the prosecutions of Nazis for certain acts and conclude that the acts were wrong because they were wrong, and the Nazis were prosecuted because they performed those acts.
Right wingers look at the prosecutions of Nazis for certain acts and conclude that the acts were wrong because they were committed by Nazis, and the Nazis were prosecuted because they were Nazis.
For the right wing, Nazi torture or tyranny or whatever wasn’t wrong because it was wrong, it was only wrong when the Nazis did it.
I think we should use the TV thing against them. So here’s my
torture litmus test:
If a villain in a TV show/movie/book/whatever use an “enhanced interrogation technique” on the hero, that technique probably crosses the line into torture. If during this “interrogation” the hero swears vengeance on the villain (or actually manages to kill him) for this treatment–and you as the audience feel like the villain deserves it–then the technique certainly counts as torture.
If, on the other hand, the hero pats the villain on the back and says, “Hey, no hard feelings: you were just trying to get needed information!” then that technique is probably OK.
See, there’s a reason that “torture” is something that’s always done by the villains: committing torture makes you a villain.
How about if they make up over it at the Crafts Service trailer. Does that given the actor immunity from prosecution for torture?
Just wondering where that’s written into the contract.
“Ethnics and Arsenholes”
I used to play that in high school. My best character was an11th-level Islamic Neutral Ninjihadist.
If waterboarding is torture and torture is illegal, then didn’t Congress break the law every year when they passed a military budget that contains funds specifically dedicated to conducting waterboarding as a matter of course?
Yes. Yes, Congress broke the law (Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions). Any more stupid questions?
The RED wire? Oh fuck…
But seriously: D. Sidhe nailed it, but El Cid made me see that any immoral act “justified” by a hypothetical situation is ogus-bay.
The Ticking Time Bomb scenario is so made-up, so artificial, it’s useless. “Oh yeah? Well what if it could save a million lives!” Well what if it could save half a million? 100,000? 10? 1? The discussion inevitably degenerates into nonsense. It HAS to. The hypothetical neutralizes the principle, and then school is out.
D. Sidhe’s scenario–make/keep torture illegal, and force those who think it’s justified IN EACH CIRCUMSTANCE to step up and assume responsibility for it–was put forth in some op-ed thing I read months ago and it was persuasive. The illegality preserves and codifies the principle. It defaults to the moral, not the immoral. Imagine every inept, pissed off, drunk, or bullyish interrogator *starting* with permission to torture. Imagine where it would go from there.
“Yow! Weak fags are being hogtied by ethnics!”
Yeah! Pass the popcorn!! Dollar a show, and ladeez get in free!!!
(Hell, this is better’n the Hog Rodayo I saw’t the las’ Counny Fair…)
Of course it’s a time bomb. Don’t you watch 24? Though – thinking out loud here – what if the baddies programmed the time bomb to go off, say, with two and a half minutes still left on the LED clock? That would fuck things up real swell for the good guys, wouldn’t it? Shit – I’ve just told the baddies how to make a REALLY GOOD time bomb. How do I delete this fucking post…
What the hell’s the deal with weak fags? What if the fags were not so weak?
What if, let’s say, they could bench press 360 pounds and had an entire faith-based arsenhole? Then they wouldn’t be weak fags anymore, now would they?
mikey
doh, mikey! sorry about being the epicenter! I was at the theatre and just felt low long waves of shakey. Like a dummy I stayed put since no one else seemed worried (so much for the wisdom of crowds), and finally convinced myself someone was just kicking my seat. I need to train myself to be the Early Adopter!!
If waterboarding is torture and torture is illegal, then didn’t Congress break the law every year when they passed a military budget that contains funds specifically dedicated to conducting waterboarding as a matter of course?
Congress breaking the law? That’s unpossible!!
Can we have a law where anyone who cites Jack Bauer or another fictional character as a reason to do something in real life is barred from elected office? Maybe I would be okay with restricting it to TV characters, by the way, because of religious freedom.
“I’m beginning to feel terribly sad and disturbed that there are so many people who actually defend torture.”
I’m with g.
Jack Bauer’s not real???!!!
Bastards!
The real Gary was cold and bloodless,
Why do I picture Dwight Shrute every time I read a Gary post, real or imaginary?
The real Gary was cold and bloodless,
Well then, he has nothing to fear from vampires.
And we already knew he has nothing to fear from zombies.
Oh, SNAP!
mikey
I agree with Gary, and I’ll go further.
Let’s say you’ve invented a time machine, and can go back in time and kill Hitler. But wait, murder is illegal! OH NOES!
Murder must be made legal; to think otherwise is to side with Hitler!
Or another: your family is starving to death, so you steal bread from a supermarket to live. But wait, stealing is illegal!
Stealing must be made legal; to think otherwise is to condemn families to death by starvation.
Wait…conservatives don’t give a shit if someone starves to death…I had gold with the Hitler one but this is a lead balloon.
I love that all these free-speech-loving rightards insist you log in to comment on their sites, or moderate comments. So their comments tend to turn into processions of nodding dogs agreeing with the poster.
OK, here’s another hypothetical:
How about there is a ticking bomb planted somewhere and the military caprtures the terrorist that is responsible and he is willing to tell us the code do disarm the bomb, but he doesn’t speak English, and the Arabic translator that was assigned to that unit was discharged for being openly gay… I know it is far fetched, why would any armed forces deprive themselves of valued service based on personal sexual preferences… oh, wait…
http://www.google.com.au/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-07,GGLG:en&q=homosexual+translator+arabic