Single White Nation ISO Citizen, 35+, Must Love Torture

This post, from Small Wars Journal, is causing quite a stir among right-wing bloggers. A complete and unequivocal rejection of torture by a US Navy combat veteran and intelligence expert who once supervised a program that taught American troops how to resist waterboarding, it naturally must be disputed by our domestic no-hopers who have bought fully into the idea that we have the right — nay, the obligation — to use the rack and screw. But it’s proving harder than usual; they can’t just call this guy a traitorous terror-loving commie snake like they would a civilian or a Democrat. After all, this is a military man, a front-line terror warrior, a FOX News expert, for goodness’ sake.

Still, they’re trying (very trying). Some, indeed, are trying harder than others. Take famed right-wing milblogger Uncle Jimbo at Blackfive, for example; in his latest post on the virtues of a police state, he has this to say:

Uncle Jimbo

ABOVE: Uncle Jimbo (right) and
his best friend (left)


The activities of those operating on the dark side are undertaken in the dark for two reasons. First so no one can see what is happening, and second no one can see what is happening. The reason that character is so important in choosing a President is that the Commander in Chief powers are almost unchecked. If our national security depends on it the President can do pretty much whatever he deems necessary. This must be so and it we need to know our leader is capable of taking the often harsh actions needed to keep us safe. Anyone who advocates closing CIA’s rendition and “ghost” prisoner operations is too naive to serve as Commander in Chief even if they can get elected President.

Let’s recap that, for those of you who are slow readers: Uncle Jimbo is arguing here that anyone who does not advocate the use of torture and secret prisons should be disqualified from fulfilling the duties of the President.

Let’s recap it again, because probably a number of you have had your brains freeze up and may be in need of a quick jumpstart: what Uncle Jimbo is saying is that even if the American people were to elect someone who is, inexplicably, not in favor of torture and secret prisons, that someone should not be allowed to command our armed forces.

Let’s recap it one more time, because there is a slight possibility that it is insanely crazy and we might wish to put it in simple words so we can appreciate how crazy it is: The official position of Uncle Jimbo is that being an advocate of torture and secret prisons should be a requirement for being President.

President of America!

Gavin adds: Um, wait; I’m trying to puzzle this out. If someone not in favor of torture and secret prisons is elected President, but is perforce ‘unqualified’ to serve as Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, then. . .um, what precisely are we talking about here?

Leonard responds: Well, Gavin, I’m not one to speak for the mentally ill fascist contingent, but perhaps what Uncle Jimbo is suggesting is that if we elect some insufficiently pro-torture weak sister, they should be allowed to be President and do, you know, presidential stuff, like lowering taxes and making sure homos can’t get married, but they shouldn’t be allowed to be Commander-in-Chief and boss around the military. That job, I assume, would fall to a more qualified imperator like…oh, I don’t know, what’s Bill Boykin up to these days?

 

Comments: 218

 
 
 

Conservatives: Torture and secret detention are necessary tools in the fight against fascism.

 
 

That would be “Fuerher” or “Commissar” of America, you revanchist swine!

” If our national security depends on it the President can do pretty much whatever he deems necessary.”

Booooring! Let’s recalll the orginal, and best, formulation: “If the President does it, that means it’s not illegal.” Why allow national security to interfere?

 
 

Gavin adds: Um, wait; I’m trying to puzzle this out. If someone not in favor of torture and secret prisons is elected President, but is perforce ‘unqualified’ to serve as Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, then. . .um, what precisely are we talking about here?

Well, obviously, we take the difficult work of governing out of his hands and give it to a sort of Super-Secretary selected for competence. Can we count on you to help put America in qualified hands again, General Butler?

 
 

Well, I won’t be following links over to that place again anytime soon.

Those are some sick, demented people over there, with scattered thinking types asking, simply, “WTF?!?”

Here’s just one tiny indicator of the extreme level of self-delusion suffered by Uncle Jimbo (somehow, I can’t believe the South Park character of the same name is as malevolent) – “I never said it (CIA’s extraordinary rendition) was a perfect system, but it’s such an extreme step that it is unlikely we have scarfed up many if any innocents.”

So, yeah, if they’re suspects, well, that proves they’re guilty and should be chopped into small pieces and used as chum.

Words fail me. I’m gonna see what’s up on my MythTV.

 
 

With this –pass the oxygen, please–we attain glorious new heights (and highs!) of un-self-aware authoritarian-o-philic splendor, including but not limited to:

1. “character is so important in choosing a President.”–Implying that Geo. W. Bush, AT LEAST, THANK G-D, has “character.” Yes, Bush, the most morally compromised and weak-charactered President in memory, if not in history.

2. “…the President can do pretty much whatever he deems necessary.” If Stalin or Mao had written this–not that they haven’t–Uncle J. would denounce it in no uncertain terms. With this vacuum-of-space absence of awareness of what the U.S. Constitution is all about, the obliviousness of this citizen is impenetrable and complete.

3. Anyone who opposes the use of torture “is too NAIVE” (my emphasis)–When in doubt, play the Maturity Card. And when not in doubt, play it anyway. “I can’t be stupid (and I don’t have to be smart) if I call you naive!”

 
 

The reason that character is so important in choosing a President is that the Commander in Chief powers are almost unchecked. If our national security depends on it the President can do pretty much whatever he deems necessary.

I don’t approve of torture but I do approve of sitting Uncle Jumbo on a hot plate until he can tell me where in the Constitution he read the part about “pretty much whatever he deems necessary.”

The activities of those operating on the dark side are undertaken in the dark for two reasons. First so no one can see what is happening, and second no one can see what is happening.

And third so no one can see what is happening and fourth, so the terrorists stub their toes and fifth so no one can see what is happening and sixth WHAT THE FUCK IS HE SMOKING?

This must be so and it [sic] we need to know our leader is capable of taking the often harsh actions needed to keep us safe.

This is stunning display of abject pussitude. I wonder if Jumbo would agree to sit on a hot plate if it would keep us safe?

 
 

So, Arky, let’s recap.

Q: Why is it dark?

1. So no one can see what is happening.
2. So no one can see what is happening.
3. So what is happening cannot be seen.
4. So that seeing cannot take place, in terms of what is happening.
5. So that the number of people who can see what is happening is none.
6. So that, if the question is posed “Can anyone see what is happening”, the answer is “no”.
7. So that happenings of any kind remain unseen by anyone.

Thoroughness. That’s the mark of a keen mind.

 
 

And they say that wingnuts aren’t funny.

What, you mean that was serious?

Holy shit

 
 

Let me invite you into my world. The scariest, most butt-puckering day of my life. Then we’ll have a little quiz.

When I was still aviation, before the powers that be decided they needed another eleven bravo for cambodia, I was on a routine ash and trash run on a huey. The rotor gears decided they had done enough for freedom and democracy, and in a fit of pique (hey, it’s a french word) they seized up, and we gently autorotated down into the middle of boonie-ville, about twelve klicks from anything resembling safety.

Five of us “souls” on board, no super heroes, no navy seals, nobody with more than a clue and a half to rub together. Middle of a triple-canopy jungle with no marked trails. Oh, by the way, a place pretty much OWNED by the bad guys. We took three rifles, five grenades and three canteens, plus a first aid pack and a notoriously balky emergency radio and we set out for a nearby firebase we thought we could find.

Now. We had officers. And we had, thank goodness, a Sergeant, because without a Sergeant we would have been even more well and truly fucked. But we started out, land navigating like we knew what we were doing, going overland in in the stifling heat, the buzzing insects, the snakes and spiders and all the shit a bunch of Americans didn’t know how to even contextualize, let alone deal with.

But make no mistake. We laughed, we joked, we propped each other up. But we were SCARED. Ask yourself. Why? Why were we scared? What was so truly frightening of a nine mile walk through the outdoors? We were afraid of being captured. Captured and tortured. Captured and tortured and killed. I had a pistol, and I want you to understand, very clearly, that pistol was not for self-defense. If we were going to get overrun, I was going to flip my own switch. Because the thing I hated them for, the thing I’d kill them for, the thing I hated and feared more than any other thing is the things they would do to me if they “had” me.

War is ugly. A guy looms up out of the dark on night ambush and you hit him over and over again until he goes down. But that kind of stool-liquefying terror that comes from the possibility that you might be given over to the tender mercies of the animals we are fighting cannot be described, or experienced until you have the lifelong misfortune to experience it.

We walked as quietly as we could, we kept our eyes on the perimeter, we kept that goddam pin loose in the grenade, not because we thought we could win a fight. Just so we could end it before they got us under control.

Outcome? We walked to a firebase, and uneventfully ended up inside the perimeter of an arty battery. And our guys sent out a new chopper to get us. But here’s what you gotta think about. You gotta think about the things we were willing to do to keep from getting taken, because we KNEW they would torture us before they killed us. Now, you gotta realize that the whole world knows that surrendering to US forces means you will be tortured.

What have we created? Where was the win? And how will we ever get our humanity back? I don’t wish that terror on anyone, but my advice to an iraqi or afghani insurgent is simply this. Be prepared to eat a bullet, wear a grenade, before you let these evil fuckers take you. Because they will hurt you in a way you cannot recover from, and there is no battlefield evil comparable to that….

mikey

 
 

If someone not in favor of torture and secret prisons is elected President, but is perforce ‘unqualified’ to serve as Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, then. . .um, what precisely are we talking about here?

When he/she does a photo op with the troops, they won’t be required to stand behind the Preznit and yell “UUUUURAAAH!” at appropriate moments.

It also means he/she better have a bodyguard when visting military bases.

 
 

Anybody here live in the S.F. Bay Area? I say we go over to Berkeley, kidnap John Yoo, and introduce him to the subleties of waterboarding, so he can see first hand what his legal expertise is making possible. I mean, he wouldn’t want to advocate something he hadn’t experienced first hand, would he?

 
 

Gavin adds: Um, wait; I’m trying to puzzle this out. If someone not in favor of torture and secret prisons is elected President, but is perforce ‘unqualified’ to serve as Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, then. . .um, what precisely are we talking about here?

What we are talking about here, former citizen Gavin, is that if a large number of soon to be former Americans decide to elect a C-in-C who is not in favor of torturing the brown people, in sharp contrast to Julie Annie and the Mitt-Stir, than those now-former-Americans should all be sent to Git-Mo for a taste of their own medicine!

Who’s with me? Pammy?

 
 

a number of hardass dictatorships are within easy flying distance of the US, so why aren’t the rightwing nutsos relocating? simple: there isn’t a single country in the world outside of the united states that can supply a combination of torture, raunchy republoporn, 57 channels with nothing on, and an endless supply of cheetos.

 
 

Um, I don’t want to demean your cut-and-paste abilities, but I think the real Uncle Jimbo quote is this:

“The activities of the Commander in Chief powers are undertaken in the dark for two reasons. First so no one can see what is happening, and second flap-a-doodle boing boing trout behemoth. The reason that character is so important in choosing a President is that knock knock. Who’s there? Banana. Banana who? Banana light bulb.”

There. I feel better.

 
 

they can’t just call this guy a traitorous terror-loving commie snake like they would a civilian or a Democrat.

Sure they can. They just haven’t gotten around to it yet. Haven’t you been paying attention? The guy could be a Medal of Honor winner, they’ll still smear him if they can’t find a way to argue with him.

 
 

Modern American conservatism:

1. Torture – check.

2. Secret prisons – check.

3. Aggressive war – check.

4. Blank check authority to the executive – check.

5. Worship of authority, and hatered of those who do not worship authority enough – check.

The scariest thing about this “concept” of theirs is that they are (a) advocating a president with essentially endless powers, and (b) only troubled by this idea to the extent that the president might not do enough awful things. The 200 year old idea of checks and balances, due process, fairness, equality, and love of human rights doesn’t even factor into the mix.

This is the way criminal organizations ordain “bosses.”

 
 

Hey mikey? Thank you for painting that picture. You put me right there in the jungle with you, as much as that is possible for a guy who was lucky enough not to have had to serve (just post Vietnam for me).

And your point? Excellently put although it could also be mentioned that the other team will fight a WHOLE LOT harder to keep from being captured, because what do they have to lose?

Finally, thank you for your service.

-OM

 
 

Oh, and Mikey, great post. I actually had never thought of it that way, but you’re right. We already know that the enemy is willing to kill himself. How is giving him more reasons to kill himself going to help us?

 
 

Shalom gentlemen. I have returned.

 
 

This jimbo dude is seriously freakin’ disturbed. Doesn’t he have any relatives or real-life friends who can intervene? I wouldn’t want this man living next door. He’s the kind of guy who’d get pissed because someone’s dog barked at night, but wouldn’t call the cops or even shoot the dog; he’d grab it and do unspeakable things to it. This guy is very snarkalicious but at the same time one is mocking him, just trying to get one’s head around his personal philosophy (for want of a better word) causes a sick lurch in the belly. He’s about eight different flavors of all fucked up.

 
 

Funny how you liberals decry about torturing islamo-facsists and yet say nay a word about the slaughter of the un-born.

 
 

Shalom gentlemen. I have returned.

Have you returned to “strike down our liberal fallicies” again? And where’s Bruce? Have you seen him? Don’t make me waterboard you.

 
 

Funny how you liberals decry about torturing islamo-facsists and yet say nay a word about the slaughter of the un-born.

That IS funny!

 
 

I shall strike down your liberal fallacies with the truth which is known pnly by conservatives. We are the truly enlightened who don’t believe all the liberal lies of thr drive by media.

 
 

Shalom gentlemen. I have returned.

women exist only in the bedroom and the kitchen.

 
 

I have been away for quite a while because of my rabbiac duties however I have returned with the strength of a lion and the wisdom of a rabbi.

 
 

Thanks for the reality check Mikey, you bring up points I’ve never heard anywhere else, and that’s because you’ve lived it. And that is one damned fine point you made there; I’m sorry about what you had to go through in order to be able to make it. Peace to you in all ways possible Sir.

 
 

Oh Christ on a pogo stick, not this asshole again. Oh well, get the popcorn and draw up a chair, it’s going to be a long night. Not for me though, something much more interesting (trimming my toenails) beckons.

 
 

Shalom gentlemen. I have returned.

I must’ve been out of town when this one first showed. Could someone please give me a primer?

 
 

Torture is sometimes necessary to break hardened terrorists and to show the world that the great USA means business, and will not let attacks on its citizens go unpunished.

 
 

Let’s recap that, for those of you who are slow readers:…

Let’s recap it again, because probably a number of you have had your brains freeze up and may be in need of a quick jumpstart:…

Let’s recap it one more time, because there is a slight possibility that it is insanely crazy and we might wish to put it in simple words so we can appreciate how crazy it is:…

Gavin adds:…

Leonard responds:…

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow it down a little there, captain. Give me a sec to wrap my head around this.

So, what yer sayin’ is Uncie Jimbo believes those candidates who would secretly use the most extreme powers of the presidency – even those that are illegal and may constitute war crimes – are the only ones with sufficient character to serve as commander-in-chief?

 
 

J-,

I think it started here. :

One of the most boring and pointless trolls I’ve ever seen. I think it’s “seth” in that thread too. It’s been here under other names too. Like “tasteless”

 
Sadly, Cambridgeport
 

Well, while we are torturing we may as well bring back the Inquisition. Sorry, Rabbi Saul, it’s the only way to strengthen our moral fiber or something.

 
 

Torture is sometimes necessary to break hardened terrorists and to show the world that the great USA means business, and will not let attacks on its citizens go unpunished.

Think so, eh, motherfucker? Well. I’ve broken every commandment ever issued by your asshole god, and here’s my proposition to you. You think torture may sometimes, reluctantly, be necessary? You realize, of course, that the national leadership might change suddenly, on a whim, without repudiating your repugnant opinion, and suddenly YOU might be an enemy of the state?

Tell ya what, pissant. You and I will go in a metal container. With an agreement. Somebody will open the door in seventy two hours. And one of us will walk out. You really wanna play this game? On this level? ‘Cause I’m pretty sure you haven’t got the stones to live up to your bullshit…

mikey

 
 

I’m with J–

But saul is at least funnier than Kevvie, and has the same sort of otherworldly zen to his pronouncements of the Real, One True Gary.

 
 

Now there’s a perfect example of the argument by non-sequiter.
“Funny how you liberals decry about torturing islamo-fascists, yet say nary a word about Fill In The Grievance of the Week.”

I’ll play:

“Funny how you liberals decry about torturing islamo-fascists, yet say nary a word about the wholesale destruction of Ficus trees on Second St.”

Or – one of my favorites: “”Funny how you liberals decry about torturing islamo-fascists, yet say nary a word about the cruel and unusual sterilization of squirrels in Palisades Park.”

 
 

Torture is appropriate when used in a very limited fashion, such as against Kaleed Shiek Mohammed when we made him confess to the Daniel Pearl beheading among other atrocities.

 
 

I have returned with the strength of a lion and the wisdom of a rabbi.

Oh, sorry. “Funny how you liberals decry about torturing islamo-fascists, yet say nary a word about the violent slaughter of wise rabbi[t]s by strong mountain lions.”

 
Sadly, Cambridgeport
 

Torture is appropriate when used in a very limited fashion, such as against Kaleed Shiek Mohammed when we made him confess to the Daniel Pearl beheading among other atrocities.

Yes, and now we finally know who shot J.R.

 
 

Mikey my friend when will you leftists stop with your threats and personal attacks. You only do those things because you don’t have the intelligence to debate me on the issues.

 
 

The truly notable fact is, I think, that a right-wing milblogger actually goes by the name ‘Uncle Jimbo’ and it’s not a satire.

As far as we know.

 
 

I have returned with the strength of a lion and the wisdom of a rabbi.

“I feel like I have the strength of a bear that has the strength of two bears!”

 
 

George Tenet our former intelligence chief and another cia operative who’s name I forgot both mentioned on the O’reilly Factor that torture can be very effective when used appropriately.

 
Sadly, Cambridgeport
 

Besides the obvious point, “anyone will confess anything under torture”, forcing a confession has to be the stupidest justification I have ever heard.

So now that we know that we have a surefire way of proving guilt, what are we going to do? Continue torturing until he says he is sorry? HAH! I knew it was you, now you’re going to get it! I’m so glad we decided to torture this guy. And you thought he might be innocent!

 
 

I picture saul snickering like Squidward after every inane comment he posts so here’s some very special pie for him.

 
 

we made him confess to the Daniel Pearl beheading among other atrocities.

Well now, isn’t this interesting. I thought the proponents of torture claimed that we ONLY tortured people for reasons of vital, urgent national security – you know, to stop the ticking time bomb. Instead saul thinks we need to torture people for confessions of crimes against persons.

Its a bad old world, and there are an awful lot of horrendous crimes against individuals. You can pick a handful of murders committed in the US that are just as horrendous as the murder of Daniel Pearl. How are you going to distinguish the cases where its OK to torture people to get them to confess? And what kind of urgency is there to gain a confession, after an irreversible murder? With your logic, what’s to stop you from extending it to routine crimes?

No, you want to torture as a punitive device.

The torture-lovers like saul pretend they have some kind of moral purity about their love of torture, but in reality, they just want to institute a police authoritarian state for their own sadistic pleasure.

 
Sadly, Cambridgeport
 

Mikey my friend when will you leftists stop with your threats and personal attacks. You only do those things because you don’t have the intelligence to debate me on the issues.

See, brutalizing other people is intellegent and reasonable, but whenever saul or another conservative is in any physical danger, it is simply reprehensible.

You’re a real lion there, buddy.

 
 

whenever saul or another conservative is in any physical danger, it is simply reprehensible.

Oh, hell, let’s not beat around the bush. It’s not just physical danger – whenever someone says something mean about saul or another conservative it is simply reprehensible.

 
 

Thanks, Lawnguylander.

 
 

You only do those things because you don’t have the intelligence to debate me on the issues.

You’re right about me. I’m a thug. The US made me go kill for them. Then they sent me home to prey on my fellow citizens. I’m not smart. I’m not educated. I’m a blunt instrument.

And the thing you are too fucking stupid to realize is if you keep creating a society of mes, you are not going to be able to control us. You want to take away all the rules so you can fuck around with arabs and muslims, because you are full of hate and fear, and what you are creating is a society that may get pissed at your ass one day, and you won’t be able to prevent us from killing you and your family.

You fuckers are so consumed with racial hatred you can’t even see you are sowing the seeds of your own destruction. You create a population inured to killing, you have nothing to protect you, except the gun, and you don’t know how to do that because you never had the stones to do it yourself. I’m not in your tribe. I don’t owe you shit. And I have the skills you made me learn.

You assholes better think carefully about what you’re creating, as if it’s not too late. Because the warriors don’t give a fuck for your stupid ideology, and they won’t even waste a tear after they put you and yours in the ground. You’re creating this world. But you don’t have what it takes to dominate it…

mikey

 
 

I said the Daniel Pearl beheading” AMONG OTHER THINGS”! He also confessed to planning the 9/11 attacks. And yes the circumstances in which torture is necessary is most often to prevent further terror attacks. The confessions just happen to be a side benefit.

 
 

The confessions just happen to be a side benefit.

Of your wet dream.

 
Sadly, Cambridgeport
 

The confessions just happen to be a side benefit.

Not to mention the money saved on rentals from Pornucopia.

 
 

And yes I know how to use firearms. I go to the range every week. I own a Bushmaster AR-15 Carbine, a Glock 32c 45 caliber handgun, a maverik 12 gauge pump action shotgun. And I can bench press 360lbs. So Mikey I don’t play around.

 
 

saul, why aren’t you in Iraq, as a member of our armed forces?

 
 

I have returned with the strength of a lemming and the wisdom of a rabbit.

I remember this particular troll from his earlier appearance. He seems to be an adolescent – but whatever his age, he’s an exceptionally tedious little twerp.

 
 

I’m not in Iraq because I’m a 50 year old Rabbi.

 
 

And yes I know how to use firearms. I go to the range every week. I own a Bushmaster AR-15 Carbine, a Glock 32c 45 caliber handgun, a maverik 12 gauge pump action shotgun. And I can bench press 360lbs.

Boy, it just wouldn’t be a right-wing troll without a creamy dollop of phony tough-guy talk.

You know, one time I tortured a wino until he confessed to planting a ticking time bomb in Grand Central Station, and also to eating the Lindbergh baby. And sure enough, after I tortured him, there was no explosion in Grand Central Station! So it was totally worth it.

 
 

I think there are men your age serving. You could go work for Blackwater, protecting our diplomats.

 
 

Enough of this childish name calling lets debate shall we.

 
 

Yay! Okay, let’s debate. I’ll start.

“Resolved: the Glock 32C is not a .45-caliber handgun, but rather a .357. People who claim otherwise in an attempt to seem super-bad-ass are phony tough guys, and also liars, and no possible good can come of debating them.”

Rebuttal?

 
 

The reason that character is so important in choosing a President is that the Commander in Chief powers are almost unchecked.

Quit fucking around with this “president” nonsense and just call him a king, you cunt.

 
 

I’m not in Iraq because I’m a 50 year old Rabbi.

You mean a six-foot, three and one half-inch-tall rabbit.?

 
 

Very smart of you. However I have it in .45 caliber. They make in both ways I believe.

 
 

Enough of this childish name calling lets debate shall we.

Resolved: Saul slurps the anuses of the goats Mickey Kaus is finished with.

 
Sadly, Cambridgeport
 

Quit fucking around with this “president” nonsense and just call him a king, you cunt.

Don’t be silly, kings aren’t popularly elected, they are hereditary members of a dynasty… oh.

 
 

You know, here’s the other thing about the torture issue.

We tortured a guy who had a name similar to a bad guy, cause we thought he was the bad guy. We tortured a cab driver from Afghanistan who drove some other guy. We tortured a herdsman because the warlord down the road from his warlord wanted to get some bounty money. We tortured the neighbor of a target in Iraq – because the target wasn’t home, but the neighbor was.

We tortured about 100 guys and one of them actually happened to be a bad guy, and happened to give up a bit of information that could only be useful if corroborated by other aggregate bits of information, some of it gained by torturing some other cab drivers, herdsmen, guys with similar names, and neighbors.

 
 

The ammunition is .45 caliber.

 
 

Hey saul? I say you’re a chickenshit pansy.

Take your glock and shove it up your ass.

Then bring all your other toys along. I’ll wear lingerie. And a santa hat.

And I’ll make you eat those toys, one at a time, until you die.

Know why? Because you don’t know how to hate.

And unfortunately for me? I certainly do.

mikey

 
 

“And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day.”

Saul, I warned them about you.

Scumbag.

 
 

Prove it. There is no evidence innocent men have been tortured.

 
 

The ammunition is .45 caliber.

No it isn’t. It’s bing bong silly pants caliber.

 
 

Wasn’t it previously determined that Saul is no rabbi? Or rabbit either, for that matter. I am fuzzy on the details.

Saul, just admit it. You get off on voyeuristic fantasies of watching torture. Too squeamish to participate yourself, and not ambitious enough to become a serial killer, you just want to watch, don’t you? We all know you do. You and that jimbo and all your ilk. It’s so transparently obvious.

You guys had better hope there’s no vengeful god with a sense of right and wrong. If there is, you are fucked.

 
 

There is no evidence innocent men have been tortured.

The federal government has ADMITTED that innocent men have been tortured.

Idiot.

 
 

Meanwhile, Greg Sargent discovers Confederate Yanqui:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/2007/10/wingnut_blogger.php

You knew this was coming: The prominent winger blog Confederate Yankee is actually calling for a boycott of The New Republic’s advertisers over the Scott Thomas Beauchamp affair. The call to arms has been linked approvingly by Michelle Malkin, and is now being touted by the usual parade of whackjobs and misfits who tend to goose-step along behind this sort of stuff.
Confederate Yankee is very, very serious about this. He’s got lists of advertisers and everything. There’s a lot of heavy breathing about coverups and the like. And he’s even caught the magazine in another lie: To wit, one of the companies listed says that it hasn’t advertised with the mag in a long time, but the mag’s media kit nonetheless says that it’s a “recent advertiser”! Really, you can’t get anything past this Confederate Yankee fellow. He’s mighty quick.

 
Sadly, Cambridgeport
 

Very smart of you. However I have it in .45 caliber. They make in both ways I believe.

The ammunition is .45 caliber.

You see, his theoretical gun does, he believes, exist. And anyway, maybe the gun isn’t .45 caliber but the ammunition definately is. Machismo, like patriotism, is a parlor game, my friend.

 
 

“a six-foot, three and one half-inch-tall rabbit.”

saul is no Elwood P. Dodd.

 
 

Mikey. Hatred is a sin. The Lord says love thy neighor. And while I certinely don’t agree with you and your liberal friends politically I don’t hate you guys, your just ignorant of how great this country is.

 
 

Mikey. Hatred is a sin. The Lord says love thy neighor.

Proof that Saul fucks horses.

 
 

You lefty trolls watch the Republican debate last week. Looks like Fred Thompson is gonna take the nomination. Hillary is toast.

 
 

saul comes here and advocates torture and then he goes all sanctimonious about “love thy neighbor?” It’s a wonder the corrosiveness of his hypocrisy doesn’t dissolve his bones away like hydrochloric acid.

I’m done with you, saul. It was fun parrying with you, but at this point you make me sick to my stomach. You’re inhuman.

 
Sadly, Cambridgeport
 

psssst. saul. dude. you’re supposed to be playing a Jewish guy. Who is this “Lord” that you base your beliefs on?

 
 

You lefty trolls watch the Republican debate last week.

I’ve been working on this for a while. I figure neutrinos plus gumdrops’ll get me to last week if I fritz ’em just right with the mento-gamma unit.

 
 

I don’t hate you guys, your just ignorant of how great this country is.

Oh brave new world that has such people in it . . .

Okay, that’s it. It’s a chilly but beautiful night, and I’m going to go out on my balcony among the last of my flowers and sip a small whiskey and then go to bed. I have to cleanse my brain of these crazy wingnut sadists.

 
 

I love you to g.

 
 

HEY SAUL, give me some evidence that a) torture works b) alternatives to torture do not work c) torture is not a violation of domestic and international law d) torture is not a violation of basic human decency.

 
 

So, mikey – what’s for dinner where you are?

tonight’s dinner is posole with chicken breast, red chiles, cilantro and hominy, garnished with radishes, scallions, chopped cilantro, and shredded cheese. Mopped up with tortillas. Washed down with a beer, or a california pinot grigio.

What kind of pie is there for dessert?

 
 

Saul…

Gey cocken en afen yam.

 
 

Saul. You idiot.

If somebody was worrying about me sinning, they shoulda thought about that forty years ago. I didn’t wake up one sunny morning on the beach and say “hey, this is boring, wish I could go kill and maim”.

Sinning is what I do. You are stupid beyond all recognition. That is my POINT. You want people to sin for your boner and ideology, and you think you can control that which you unleash.

And that’s why you are stupid beyond measure.

Go away…

mikey

 
 

No snark here boys,this ones serious.Torture is only effective at terrorizing a population,not,I repeat not,as an effective intelligence gathering instrument!The Water-board was used extensively by the Clerical authorities in the Auto de Fe.You can see many etchings of it’s use in texts dealing with the Spanish Inquisition.The Church authorities banned the shedding of blood during interrogations so creative methods were devised such as the Strappado,which you can see being implemented in photos from Abu-Ghraib as well as The water cure.La Aqua Pura,The Shower,The Chinese Water Torture or whatever euphemism is being used,it of course to any one not deluded,ignorant, engaging in denial or self deception or completely sociopathic,THIS IS FUCKING TORTURE.If you don’t think it is,or you think it’s not so bad,let someone do it to your Mother or Daughter.That should be the metric we apply.

 
 

saul

1000 dollars. i want a video of you with today’s newspaper prominently showing behind you while you bench press…you said 360 lbs? fuck it, give me a video of you benching 300. that’s fine. put it on youtube, and i’m ready to pay.

see here’s the thing. i don’t think you can bench press that much. i don’t think you can shoot a gun very well, if at all. and i don’t really think you are a rabbi.

i think you are a 16 year old kid living in his trailer somewhere pissed because mom just told him he has to go to sleep.

something i intend to do right now.

shalom, bitch.

 
InsaneInTheCheneyBrain
 

ahhh, one more pie-loving bastard: ELIMINATED

 
 

Prove it. There is no evidence innocent men have been tortured.

saul knows a lot, one might say too much about the US’s highly secretive detention program. He also repeatedly uses word torture when the pResident has said repeatedly and emphatically that the US doesn’t torture.

Ergo: saul is an islamocommiesubversivefascist.

 
 

In the Holy Torah God both loves and kills. There is no contradiction. Genesis 9:26 “He that sheds the blood of man by man shall his blood be shed for in the image of God has God made man”.

 
 

Very smart of you. However I have it in .45 caliber. They make in both ways I believe.

A robust rebuttal! I salute you. It succeeds on one level, the part where you call me smart, but fails on the more important level of being true. It is, in fact, “false”, or, what we in the business call “a lie”. Which, even if I were not an owner of several of the Glock company’s fine firearms, I would know because, since I am not eleven years old, I know how to use the internet. It is possible that you have a Glock 32C that has been “modified” to be able to fire .45 ammunition, I note, anticipating your next lie, but that would be similar to “modifying” a station wagon into becoming an SUV.

Having established in this debate that you have a tendency to lie about inconsequential things, let’s move on to whether or not you lie about more important things, like whether or not you are a rabbi, 50 years old, or a rational human being. I would like to mention, just as an aside, that most of the people who can bench-press over 350 pounds are well-known professional weightlifters or bodybuilders, and none of them that the internet knows about are 50-year-old gun-toting rabbis.

Who’s keeping score in this debate? I have it at 50 million for me and naught for the 11-year-old, but I’m biased.

 
 

oh, and dinner:

organic chicken broiled with salt and pepper, green beans (also organic) in the wok with sesame oil and soy sauce, and fresh corn on the grill with garlic butter roasted in. the kids cleaned their plates!

plus a spectacular smoke-aided cali sunset.

 
 

In the Holy Torah God both loves and kills.

In the Holy Fantastic Four Galactus hungers.

 
 

Hey g. Thanks.

I went to the doc for a regular update today. She gave me major shit. My a1c came back 7.4, and she was threatening to put me on meds for blood sugar. I’ve had my a1c down to 6.8 with diet and exercise, but I’ve been kind of, er, creative in the kitch the last six or so months.

So I rubbed a top loin boneless pork chop in olive oil and fresh herbs and broiled it fast and clean. I steamed some broccolli with a couple cloves of garlic, and made some cole slaw with sunflower nuts. It was good, and healthy. Now if I can continue to behave, I won’t have to do weird diabetes behaviors next year.

But I do have trouble with austere….

mikey

 
Sadly, Cambridgeport
 

But where in the Holy Torah does “the Lord” tell you to “love thy neighbor”?

 
 

I have it at 50 million for me and naught for the 11-year-old, but I’m biased.

Stop running up the score.

 
 

Saul two words NEUTEREI-KARTA BEEYATCH!!1!!!!!

 
 

In the Holy Fantastic Four Galactus hungers.

In the X-Men, God loves, man kills. Also, in the arcade, Sinistar hungers.

I learn so much from the holy scriptures, don’t you, Bubba?

 
 

But where in the Holy Torah does “the Lord” tell you to “love thy neighbor”?

The Song of Solomon.

 
 

Sermon on the mount?

 
 

Also, in the arcade, Sinistar hungers.

RUN! COWARD!

Truer words were never spoken to me in an arcade.

 
 

What Mikey sez is true now too.

Any joe would rather be blown to a thousand pieces than be the guy who gets wounded and caught by hajji. And, increasingly, hajji feels the same way.

 
Sadly, Cambridgeport
 

Hahahah, thanks Bubba

You know, a lot of barely pubescant fundie boys that I knew growing up used to jerk off to that in the church stalls. It was the only thing that we were allowed to read

 
 

Off to bed for me I’ll see you libs later. I have to help prepare for an upcoming Bat-Mitzvah. Shalom.

 
 

Man, we gotta get that kid a blog, stat.

 
Sadly, Cambridgeport
 

I have to help prepare for an upcoming Bat-Mitzvah.

Your own? Too easy.

 
 

Regarding “love thy neighbour” – although Saul doesn’t know it – there are some precursors in the Jewish faith that come pretty close.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder

 
 

Man, we gotta get that kid a blog, stat.

Surely you have some Renew America pull.

 
 

At least this time he didn’t start posting under a second name and begin arguing with himself.

 
 

I have been away for quite a while because of my rabbiac duties
Which, if it were true, would probably mean you would know that “rabbiac” is not a word, but “rabbinic” is.
(Pssst … also “rabbinical.” I know that one cause they use it in Fiddler on the Roof)

 
 

He at least keeps his goofball babbling short. It’s like taking candy from a baby dealing with him, and then you take the candy and beat the baby to death with it if it’s, say a giant lollipop or if it’s licorice you have to improvise some sort of strangling device.

 
 

Saul, annieangel, kevin…can anyone prove they’re not the same person? (I won’t quibble about personalities…many faces of eve, and all.)

 
 

Saul’s got the typos of Kevin, but is simultaneously less imaginative and more entertaining. I don’t think annieangel was that bad at typing.

 
 

Mr. Pierce, one quick correction if I may – The purpose of the Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (also known as SERE School) is not as you wrote a “program that taught American troops how to resist”. You do not resist torture, eventually you will tell the torturers everything you know and everything you don’t know. No, the purpose of that particular part of the school is to show students what they are likely to encounter. As I have been told by more than one graduate of SERE, those first two letters (Survival and Evasion) are the most important parts…

BTW – In the Mikey v. Saul, I’ll take Mikey and give the points…

 
 

saul said,
Very smart of you. However I have it in .45 caliber. They make in both ways I believe.

See, this is called a “faith-based armory.” Never mind that the Glock 32 is not, and never was, made in .45 (that would be the Glock 36), but he believes it to be so, so he has one.

Possibly he has no idea what model his pistol is, because the guy selling it out of the trunk of a car in the parking lot of the gun show had scraped that off along with the serial number.

Or, he’s wondering why the fucking thing doesn’t work. “Superior German engineering my ass!” he thinks to himself as he tries, yet again, to stuff .45acp rounds into another ruined .357 magazine…

 
 

Saul, annieangel, kevin…can anyone prove they’re not the same person?.

Actually, I’m surprised we don’t get more wingnuts here. They get chewed up pretty quickly, but you’d think that more would at least put in an appearance.

 
 

Meanwhile, back in the realm of topical commentary…

The reason that character is so important in choosing a President is that the Commander in Chief powers are almost unchecked. If our national security depends on it the President can do pretty much whatever he deems necessary. This must be so and it we need to know our leader is capable of taking the often harsh actions needed to keep us safe.

Two words for all the wingnuts who advocate unlimited presidential power in the War on Terra:

President Clinton.

I know exactly when they’ll remember about things like limited government, civil liberties, and the Bill of Rights: Jan. 20, 2009.

 
Herr Doktor Bimler
 

This is like one of those theological paradoxes. Does an all-powerful, almost god-like commander-in-chief have the power to renounce the use of some of those powers?
Uncle Jimbo reckons that the answer is ‘no’.

the often harsh actions needed to keep us safe
And I blame this all on modern, risk-averse parenting [mumble mumble mumble] raising a generation of wusses [mumble mumble mumble] none of this “keeping us safe” talk when I was a boy [mumble mumble mumble]

 
 

See, this is called a “faith-based armory.”

Hee hee. I am SO keeping this. Next time I have to argue with the white shirts, I’m going to explain that they are heretics, I merely maintain a faith based armory….

Crackin me up!

mikey

 
 

OFF TOPIC TO Mikey – Would you be kind enough to send (I almost said “shoot”) me an e-mail to j(dot)c(dot)smith2 (at) gmail(dot)com? I thank you (and the comments readers for indulging me) – Jim

 
 

Ooh, thought of another possibility: the guy at the gun show sold him a 40-year old Colt that had “Glock 32C” scrawled on the side in sharpie ink, for which he paid $1500.

 
 

Huh – er – wha?

Oh, sorry. I was watching the bio of Charles Schulz on PBS.

Good ole Charlie Brown. How I hate him.

 
 

Wow, I thought the Banality Troll was limited to Atrios.

And mikey’s right in so many ways. The Iraq experience is going to have a knock-on across the US for the next fifty years.

 
 

Y’know, the Glock 19 in 9mm, the muzzle flip is ridiculous. You cannot effectively fire a true double tap without killing the sky. Why anybody would think this was a righteous platform for .45 just makes my teeth ache.

I have a Star PD, a Colt Gold Cup, a SIG and an HK USP for .45s. The whole idea of the .45ACP is to take advantage of the knockdown power of the round. The idea is to put a very angry, serious round like the flying ashtray (thats what we called the 200gr SJHP .45 from Speer) on target. Who the hell cares if it’s easy to carry and easy and safe to deploy if you throw rounds all over tarnation. If you want to carry a glock, carry a 9mm. If you can’t use a 9 effectively, carry a big wooden stick. Jeezus.

With .45, you need some weight forward of the magazine, and you need grips that will let the gun recoil straight back into your palm. Muzzle flip will kill inoocent bystanders, and it will kill you.

This has been a Public Service Announcement from the people for Disarming Idiots…

mikey

 
Johnny Coelacanth
 

RUN! COWARD!

Truer words were never spoken to me in an arcade.

Righteous B (as I will now call you) you made me Larf Out Loud. Thanks.

I went to that BlackJive site (and they don’t seem very urban if you ask me) and I saw this: “The fact that unpleasant techniques must be used is the fault of the unpleasant people and is mitigated by the value of the lives saved.”

There ya go. I can hear the pro torture folks yelling: “Look what you did! It’s all your fault we had to shred the Constitution! We can’t have anything nice!”

It would be funny if I didn’t want to cry. Oh, whatever Gods walk the black abyss between the stars, I beseech you, I would give anything to undo 9/11 and go back to believing I lived in a country where the sane people generally prevailed.

 
 

I think we don’t get too many wingers because, first, we’re fucking foulmouthed jebuscorpse buggering bastards. (I personally prefer Mary’s corpse, but to each their own.)
Second, we have stuff called facts and higher brain functions to throw at them which, at best, only serves to enrage and confuse them. In a way, we might as well be talking theoretical physics in ancient Greek to many of their ears.

 
 

Saul gots da mad rabbiac skillz, yo.

“Rabbiac”. Jesus.

 
 

I usually come here for the laughs but want to thank Mikey for that excellent tale and the insight into just one of the reasons that torture is so abhorrent.

As to the Uncle Jimbo and the rest of the warpron bloggers: wife-beaters the lot of them. “Why do you make me hit you?” Powerless, pathetic, poop-in-pants whiners the lot of them.

 
 

(I personally prefer Mary’s corpse, but to each their own.)

Eeeewwwwwwww…..

 
 

That story was really gripping, Mikey. Thanks for sharing.

Yes, I wish people would look objectively at what the threat of torture does in a battlefield situation, how it could actually harden resistance from an enemy that would rather die than be captured. Conversely, your enemy’s belief that they could be captured by you, and be safe, could actually act as a softening influence on them. An interesting angle.

 
 

Conversely, your enemy’s belief that they could be captured by you, and be safe, could actually act as a softening influence on them. An interesting angle.

athiest, I’m pretty sure that the “could” in that sentence can properly be replaced with “can, and has” .
Once upon a time, anyway.

 
 

Y’know, the Glock 19 in 9mm, the muzzle flip is ridiculous. You cannot effectively fire a true double tap without killing the sky. Why anybody would think this was a righteous platform for .45 just makes my teeth ache.

Well, the ‘C’ models are ported to reduce climb. But the 21C is the only .45 model with compensation.

 
 

Saul

Lets just put ourselves in the mindset of say the Spanish Inquistion circa 1400 or so.

“It is sometimes necessary to torture unbelivers so they will confess their sins. This is done to protect holy mother church from their influence.”

Torture is useless as an intelligence gathering device – what it is good for, as the Nazis, the Soviet Union and the Most Holy Inquistion knew, is getting the poor bastard who’s legs are being crushed by rocks to confess to whatever the torturer wants to hear.

you gave the example of the man who confessed to having David Pearl beheaded and planning 9-11. I’m sure after a few more sessions and he would be confessing to making his humas with the blood of christian virgins.

As for miltary service – surely the Army needs jewish chaplins along with their other demonations yes? Hosptials, funerals that sort of thing yes? Have you nothing to donate to the cause?

Putz.

 
 

Torture is appropriate when used in a very limited fashion, such as against Kaleed Shiek Mohammed when we made him confess to the Daniel Pearl beheading among other atrocities.

Not for nothin’, saul, but I’m pretty sure that you would confess to beheading Daniel Pearl if they tortured you, too. Among other atrocities.

And mikey, I read your story and it’s great, but I fear the main “takeaway” for people of wingnuttiness will be: “See, torture is effective because just the possibility of it scares the bejeebers out of the bad guys!”

Finally, everyone: RABBIAC was the first Jewish computer, used primarily for calculating sunset on Shabbat and the High Holy Days. It would have had more applications, but its design made it incapable of counting past 613. It is currently housed in the basement of a synagogue in Skokie, Illinois, having been rejected by a “restricted” Smitshonian in 1963.

 
 

[…] whole thing is unhinged, nuts, and dangerous, an excellent target for Sadly No! and John […]

 
 

#

saul said,

October 30, 2007 at 5:13

I have been away for quite a while because of my rabbiac duties however I have returned with the strength of a lion and the wisdom of a rabbit.

Fixed.

 
 

Saul sounds like kind of guy who walks around Salt Lake City in freaky robes with a Mormon girl he abducted.

 
 

“First so no one can see what is happening, and second no one can see what is happening.”

Of course! Because if no one can see it, nothing is happening!

 
 

Finally, everyone: RABBIAC was the first Jewish computer, used primarily for calculating sunset on Shabbat and the High Holy Days. It would have had more applications, but its design made it incapable of counting past 613. It is currently housed in the basement of a synagogue in Skokie, Illinois, having been rejected by a “restricted” Smitshonian in 1963.

It also didn’t work on Saturdays.

 
 

Getting back on topic here:

“The reason that character is so important in choosing a President is that the Commander in Chief powers are almost unchecked. If our national security depends on it the President can do pretty much whatever he deems necessary.”

Is completely wrong.

The President has never had the authority to violate the law, no matter what his rationale.

And Congress has more authority over national security issues than the President.

This isn’t a military dictatorship.

 
 

There is no evidence innocent men have been tortured.

Technically, every single person who has been tortured is “innocent” because not a fucking one of them has ever had a fucking trial, or military tribunal, or kangaroo court hearing, even.

But, hey, let’s play along. What do the following people have in common?

Khaled el-Masri
Maher Arar
Yuksel Celikgogus, Ibrahim Sen, Nuri Mert, Zakirjan Hasam, and Abu Muhammad

Shafiq Rasul, Asif Iqbal, Rhuhel Ahmed, and Jamal Al-Harith (a web designer from Manchester, Eng)

Any guesses?
Here’s a hint: it starts with “detained by the US government” and ends with “released without being charged with a crime” or “cleared of all wrongdoing”. It’s the months and years in the middle that have caused all the ruckus.

 
 

I have a 55 caliber Desert Eagle. And I can bench press 400lbs and leg lift nearly one thousand pounds. And I have a girlfriend in Canada who is a supermodel. You wouldn’t have heard of her, because she’s Canadian and doesn’t use her real name. Also I meant a one hundred caliber Desert Eagle. And a Browning Machine Gun. No, wait, a Completely Browned Machine Gun.

 
 

The President has never had the authority to violate the law, no matter what his rationale.

We can at least take comfort in the fact that Bush isn’t going to name his horse a consul.

 
Jerry Falwell's Ghost
 

Look, we need to know our leader is capable of taking the often illegal actions needed to keep Congress from looking to closely into national security issues.

Anyone who advocates placing the Supreme Law of the land over some two-bit wannabe shitkicker from Connecticut is perhaps too naive to vote for Commander-in-Chief. Too Naive!

 
 

damn tags

 
 

We can at least take comfort in the fact that Bush isn’t going to name his horse a consul.

Actually I wish Bush would do exactly that. He should get a horse or a dog, perhaps a cockatoo, and make it a Congressman. Then we could watch our mentally diseased media talk about how this was a great move by a strong commander in chief, and watch Rahm Emanuel make freinds with the Cockatoo by feeding it seeds, and proclaim it his pleasure to serve with such a distinguished bird in the US Congress. Obama and Clinton would try to outdo each other in making freinds with the bird, only to both fail. McCain, Guiliani and Romney would make a huge stink about how Bush had sold out the country by putting a South American bird on the Congress. They would demand that it be replaced by a Bald Eagle, only to be totally ignored by Bush. Conservatives across the country would seethe in anger over the damn Mexican bird in the Congress, and would put bumper stickers on their car about South American birds taking over the country.

It would be exactly like now, only more entertaining.

 
 

Pvt. Menchaca and Pvt. Tucker — not just dead, but tortured. Their unrecognizable bodies dumped at a roadside that had been wired with bombs. According to an Iraqi military spokesman, the soldiers “were killed in a barbaric way”…

Know that in the case of these two soldiers, DNA tests were necessary to determine which disfigured corpse was which. It is not the policy of the U.S. to torture enemy combatants. We do not behead captured enemies. Water-boarding and sleep deprivation — even placing underwear on someone’s head — might be bad to some people, but.disfiguring torture and beheading strike us as the acts of barbarians and monsters. I’ll bet the families of Menchaca and Tucker would have taken waterboarding or underwear for their soldiers any day.

What have we created? Where was the win? And how will we ever get our humanity back? I don’t wish that terror on anyone, but my advice to an iraqi or afghani insurgent is simply this. Be prepared to eat a bullet, wear a grenade, before you let these evil fuckers take you. Because they will hurt you in a way you cannot recover from, and there is no battlefield evil comparable to that…. mikey

Frankly, at the rate we’re going, the enemy doesn’t have to fear much from the Americans beyond tickling with a feather boa. And if you wish the iraqi and afghani insurgents to eat a bullet, wear a grenade, before you let these evil fuckers take you… fine. Whatever works.

 
 

Army3IDMom

piss off . we’re dropping bombs on towns on the off chance we will kill a few bad guys – fuck the civilians. were setting traps with cell phones and shooting anybody who picks them up. So let’s not get into a pissing contest here – each side is being as frightful as they can.

And what are you really saying that if we were worse had we chopped heads off these kids would be alive? that’s bughouse. insane. Mabye just mabye if we didn’t act like barbarians ourselves this wouldn’t happen. If you remember at the beging of the war our prisoners were treated pretty damn well.

Still the only thing that is going to save the rest of these young men and women is to get them the hell out of there.

again piss off.

 
 

Whatever works.

We KNOW what doesn’t work, you anti-American bint.

 
 

Army3IDMom said, You silly,silly,woman.Maybe your son will get tickled with a feather boa.Then we’ll see when he comes home if he thought it was torture or not.And I usually don’t trust posters with some sort of Military tag in thier I.D.seems always like it’s supposed to be some kind of conversation ender,like I’ve been there,so you don’t know what your talking about,lalala.Torture is MORALLY UNEXCEPTABLE for non savages period.And go fuck yourself!God I despise people like you.

 
 

but.disfiguring torture and beheading strike us as the acts of barbarians and monsters.

Oh. OK. Let’s be clear on what you are saying, ma’am. They are barbarians and monsters, the evil muslims that simply won’t follow the rules of warfare.

And your argument is we should be MORE LIKE THEM? We should emulate the very tactics you use as a justification for inhumanity? Are you insane, or merely garden variety stupid?

Are you proud of yourself? You taking the same position as Osama bin Laden, as Josef Stalin? Does it make you feel good? What the hell is wrong with you? Why did you and your mindless sheep decide we shouldn’t be the good guys anymore?

You and your ilk use the most foul, deprecating language to describe bin Laden and the society he espouses. And then, in the very next breath, you encourage America to act JUST LIKE HIM!

Yeah. We could become evil, brutal, murdering, torturing thugs. And when we declare victory, what will we have won?

Goddam it, we have nothing to fear from al Qaeda but some random violence, which you might have noticed doesn’t happen all that often. No, the real threat to America, and everything that makes America an ideal, is people like you…

mikey

 
 

Water-boarding and sleep deprivation — even placing underwear on someone’s head — might be bad to some people, but.disfiguring torture and beheading strike us as the acts of barbarians and monsters.

They’re monsters! We should be monsters too!

 
 

Waterboarding isn’t torture. We use it on our own troops in SERE school. The “expert” at small wars journal even admits to teaching our troops how to resist it. We also know that it’s effective as KSM sang like a bird when they used it on him.

Jim C

 
 

Waterboarding isn’t torture. We use it on our own troops in SERE school.

That’s because it’s torture dumbass.

 
 

You know that it’s effective insofar as it makes people talk. That is certainly more effective than Army 3ID Mom’s suggested method of beheading – which I will concede is less effective as a method of extracting information.

So yes, people will sing when you waterboard them, and will cry uncle when you twist their arm, and will give you their popcorn if you threaten to spit on them. It’s all still immoral bullying, and it’s all pretty ineffective as a method of reaching the the truth.

 
 

sticks & stones, boys & girls… my, my… testy bunch, aren’t we??

it will always be what you consider “torture” v. what anyone else considers “torture”. I see waterboarding as an acceptible form of interrogation. If you don’t, so be it. It doesn’t make me or you wrong. It’s a free country and you are entitled to your opinion and I to mine. We simply don’t agree. And I certainly did not suggest that we sink to their level of barbarism…heavens no! I am sorry that my comment could not be met with intelligent discussion but rather caused so many to attack and name call. Or is it just the image of poor defenseless insurgents that gets to you and not the image of butchered American soldiers?

And as for my son, I sent him to war with the following instructions: If it’s you or them, make it them. Everything else is for later.

 
 

I see waterboarding as an acceptible form of interrogation. If you don’t, so be it. It doesn’t make me or you wrong.

Yes, it makes you wrong. Live with it, monstress.

 
 

And as for my son, I sent him to war with the following instructions: If it’s you or them, make it them. Everything else is for later.

Good god. I’m actually shaking. You are a piece of shit as a mother, and a piece of shit as a human. That’s not how you do war. I killed, and I came home fucked up, but I could still see my mom as something pure and untouched by the filth and horror.

You know, you idiot, that your son is going to see and do things you cannot even imagine. And he’s going to come home trying to find an anchor. I want you to, please, listen very carefully and think about it, at least. He doesn’t need you to be a gung ho “kill ’em all and let god sort ’em out” kind of cheerleader. If he saw any combat at all, he’s going to need to find a harbor of peace, serenity and love. Honest to god, mom, you fucking idiot, do you think he’s going to come home thinking he’d really like to think about, talk about, do a bunch more killing? Jeezus, you need to talk to some people.

Your boy is going to be something you don’t know anymore. And this kind of crap is going to drive him into a bottle and worse. Maybe he’ll be fine. Maybe nothing can save him. But you need to re-think your stupidity.

Christs tits in a mason jar, I fear for the guys coming home. And trailer – park generals in the place of moms aren’t going to help.

I’m speechless. I’m saddened. I’m looking back over nearly 40 years of trying to bolt my life back together after they took so much of it away, and I’m thinking, if I had a mom like this piece of work, I would NOT be here today.

Gawd…

mikey

 
 

Darnit! I can’t poke fun at you guys about how ridiculous this post is tonight because I have to do a thing :(. Grr.

Wait, I could do one“Gavin says, Um, […]um, what precisely are we talking about here?”

You don’t have to type the word ‘um’ when you are thinking or saying ‘um’ out loud to yourself while typing a comment. And if you accidentally DO type it, you can use the backspace to fix it. Free FYI!

Can’t wait ’till the weekend. I’ll here for you!

 
 

RB:. There’s that name calling thing again. Your momma must be so proud.

If “everyone” agrees it’s torture (and of course that’s not true)… when Congress passed the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 and they attached those measures to last year’s defense authorization bill that banned “cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment” of detainees in the custody of the U.S. military and civilian agencies such as the CIA or the FBI anywhere in the world, why didn’t they specifically list waterboarding?

Because a clear preponderance didn’t agree that it was torture.

I didn’t and don’t advocate that we use the brutal mutilation techniques used by our enemies; however, if it’s a matter of frightening them and depriving them of sleep or making them listen to loud music… just because it annoys them, makes them uncomfortable or scares the bejebus out of them does.not.make.it.torture.

Again, I am certain if all our soldiers worried about if captured was whether they would have to listen to bad music played loudly or were too hot or too cold… or even waterboarding and knew they’d have 3 squares a day, access to an attorney, exercise yards, etc., I know they’d stop worrying like mikey did. I don’t think there are a lot of al Queda or Taliban that are actually scared off by our interrogation techniques. Seriously.

me? a monstress? well, I guess.

 
 

why didn’t they specifically list waterboarding?

Who really knows what kind of craven idiots lurk in congress? Waterboarding’s torture and you’re a torture advocate.

 
 

If it’s you or them, make it them. Everything else is for later.

Geez, are you sure you didn’t send him over to be a Blackwater mercenary?

No?

Well, at least he has all the training necessary for that lucrative career.

 
 

If he saw any combat at all, he’s going to need to find a harbor of peace, serenity and love. Honest to god, mom, you fucking idiot, do you think he’s going to come home thinking he’d really like to think about, talk about, do a bunch more killing?

there’s that name-calling thing again.

mikey, Our son saw many months of combat in Iraq…infantry… 11B… more combat than he or we wanted. Shot at, blown up… and, yes, our son suffers from PTSD… but — as he will tell you — principally due to what he saw al Queda did to men, women and children there… more horrible than any news reports you have read. And, yes, the need for him to have killed bothered him, but he actually knows the difference between the good guys and the bad guys, mikey… and as he’ll tell you, he’ “ok with that in his head.”

Our son is doing well, thank you, and it’s not only because he accepted that he had PTSD and accepted treatment, but also because he came home to a nuturing, loving and supportive family that fully understands and supports him and his mission and his role in that mission. He has discussed with us the things that bother him and he considers his father (two tours in Vietnam) and I his “harbor of peace, serenity and love” as we are for any number of his “brothers” whom we call sons.

When he left,I only told my son what any mother would tell a son going off to war: if someone is shooting at you, shoot back and make your aim true. I presume this is how you made it out alive as well?

I’m sorry you didn’t get the help you needed when you came back for it obviously continues to plague you. There’s still time to get help, mikey. The VA has no limits on getting help for combat-related PTSD and the accompanying anger and disconnect. The name-calling thing is a sure give away.

 
 

[…] that waterboarding is torture (via Sadly, No). It’s a great post with some of the history and links to other posts about the subject. Go […]

 
 

Lady you are off your friggin rocker.People tend to get a little emotional when discussing things that define you as a society.Name calling is verrry bad,but strapping someone to a board and sticking a funnel down his or her esophagus then calculating how much water can be filled into your lungs so that you are panicking,suffocating,and praying that it’s a bad dream,but not quite drowning you,so they can do it all over again is just a matter of debate between two folks of good will.Lady and previous dickhead as bad as the DI’s in SERE school are you know there on your team,and somewhere in the back of your head your almost sure they wont let you die.But that don’t apply when the subject and object are hostiles.NEGATIVE,you have removed a another persons autonomy over their last frontier,their own body.And if you think that MP’s and IO’s don’t brutally knock the shit out of detainees your livin in a dream world.

 
 

Hokay, babe.

Hell, anything’s possible in this fucked up world.

But you’ll forgive me if I have some doubts about the pretty picture you paint.

And know what? I have a lot of experience with PTSD. As a victim, as a recovering victim, and as part of the therapeutic process. And either you are utterly deluded, or I’m not at all convinced your boy is ok. From your description, it sounds like the worst kind of denial.

It’s the worst kind because everything just festers underneath it. He so badly wants you and dad to not be worried, he’s willing to undermine his own treatment to make sure you believe the picture you just painted.

I dunno. Hell, stranger things have happend. But thirty seven years of living it, and sixteen in therapy, I’m gonna say you just might, MIGHT find enough love in your shrivled heart to think about the possibility that YOU are the problem.

Hey, you came over here with your hatred and torture. You can’t blame me for telling you what I think…

mikey

 
 

So if we, the people, and by that I mean the electoral college (ack, spit) were to put someone in office who was mentally ill, or mentally handicapped, then that’s okay with ya’ll?

As long as they’re elected, I suppose.

Since them being elected, duly and rightly, I suppose that ya’ll are okay with the 2004 results too, then.

Right?

 
 

Goddam it, we have nothing to fear from al Qaeda but some random violence, which you might have noticed doesn’t happen all that often. No, the real threat to America, and everything that makes America an ideal, is people like you…

mikey

You espouse the “One tortured is too many” mantra, as it pertains to torturing people.
Random Violence? Okay, terrorism must, by nature be random. An announced attack (We will blow up the Goldstein Bar Mitzvah at 1234 Main Street, Anytown USA on 1 April at Noon! Dirka Dirka!” Would be pretty easy to stop, and thus, no terror is involved.

23 Diplomats and 241 Marines in 1983, 22 Diplomats, two civilians and two military in 1984, Thirteen Americans in 1986, 270 People in Lockerbie in 1988, Six at the WTC in 1993, 173 in 1995 (Murrah Buiding and Riyadh), 19 in 1996, 224 at US embassies in 1998, 17 sailors on the USS Cole in 2000, 2992 on The eleventh of September, 8 more in Riyadh in 2003, 10 in 2004–and all we have to fear is some random violence?

Ever consider that each and every one of those people had parents, siblings, children, wives, husbands, or lovers that miss them?

I think the real threat to America, and everything that makes America so much more than an ideal, is you, Mikey.

To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. So yes, there is a to kill, a time to hate, a time to beat the snot out of/nearly drown/shoot at or otherwise mentally abuse those who would kill me, my child, my parents, my lovers. Not all the time, but there is a time when it becomes necessary.

I’m sure those orphaned in the aforementioned attacks feel so much better knowing that we would not do absolutely everything possible to prevent it, because we held ourselves to a higher standard.

Dumbass.

 
 

Well shit, dude, you’ve blogged about how much you hate a state that elects a Congressman who’s Muslim, and questioning whether that state even deserves to be in the union. Who are you to be posing as the saint of elections?

 
 

23 Diplomats and 241 Marines in 1983, 22 Diplomats, two civilians and two military in 1984, Thirteen Americans in 1986, 270 People in Lockerbie in 1988, Six at the WTC in 1993, 173 in 1995 (Murrah Buiding and Riyadh), 19 in 1996, 224 at US embassies in 1998, 17 sailors on the USS Cole in 2000, 2992 on The eleventh of September, 8 more in Riyadh in 2003, 10 in 2004–and all we have to fear is some random violence?

Why that’s over a third of the drunk driving deaths so far this year! Yep, 24 years of mayhem right there.

 
 

23 Diplomats and 241 Marines in 1983, 22 Diplomats, two civilians and two military in 1984, Thirteen Americans in 1986, 270 People in Lockerbie in 1988, Six at the WTC in 1993, 173 in 1995 (Murrah Buiding and Riyadh), 19 in 1996, 224 at US embassies in 1998, 17 sailors on the USS Cole in 2000, 2992 on The eleventh of September, 8 more in Riyadh in 2003, 10 in 2004–and all we have to fear is some random violence?

And we invaded two countries and killed a million of them. A MILLION, give or take. Or, if you want to argue, fine. Three hundred thousand. You know they had moms, dads, grammas and grampas, kids, houses and pets, don’t you? I mean, you do think they COUNT, even a little bit, right?

Nearly two million others are displaced. Kicked out of their homes, forced to flee with what they can carry.

Jeez, asshole, american exceptionalism much? You do realize, do you not, that they were, each and every one, innocent human beings. Like Lockerbie. (oh btw-the murrah building? How’d that get in there. That dude was a white american christianist).

If your argument holds any weight, we deserve to lose. What a pea brained fuck…

mikey

 
 

Mom and son tag team Fasci-blogging.What a concept.

 
 

I think the real threat to America, and everything that makes America so much more than an ideal, is you, Mikey.

Let’s see. I want us to act like we described our society in our constitution, and our declaration of independence, and the way we’ve lived for over 200 years. Habeas? It’s in the constitution. Warrants? Oh yeah. They’re in there too. Did you know we prosecuted a nazi at nuremburg and convicted him of war crimes and sent him to prison for waterboarding? Yep.

But you want to act like the nazis, the stasi, the soviets, al quaeda. And for you to say that I’m the threat to america is so obviously wrong, so obviously just grasping for some justification for you authoritarian bigotry, it doesn’t even make sense…

mikey

 
Qetesh the Abyssinian
 

23 Diplomats and 241 Marines in 1983, 22 Diplomats, two civilians and two military in 1984, Thirteen Americans in 1986, 270 People in Lockerbie in 1988, Six at the WTC in 1993, 173 in 1995 (Murrah Buiding and Riyadh), 19 in 1996, 224 at US embassies in 1998, 17 sailors on the USS Cole in 2000, 2992 on The eleventh of September, 8 more in Riyadh in 2003, 10 in 2004–and all we have to fear is some random violence?

All tragedies. But those numbers fade in comparison to the millions the US has murdered in covert operations and unjust wars over the years, and the millions murdered and tortured by brutal regimes cheerfully supported by the US for purely political or economic reasons.

Chomsky was right: reducing terrorism is easy, all you have to do is stop participating in it.

And regarding the Murrah building: McVeigh was an American, wasn’t he? So why does that justify killing and torturing innocent Iraqis?

Ever consider that each and every one of those people had parents, siblings, children, wives, husbands, or lovers that miss them?

Just like the million or so innocent Iraqis bombed, shot, and otherwise killed since the illegal invasion of Iraq. Please remember that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Iraq had no WMDs. Iraq posed no threat to its own neighbours, much less the most heavily armed nation in the world. Get some perspective: the biggest bully on the block invaded and slaughtered for no reason, and there’s now an active resistance to the occupation, which is being augmented by furious wanna-be terrorists pouring in from everywhere. You’ve made the world hate you: how does that help reduce terrorism?

So yes, there is a to kill, a time to hate, a time to beat the snot out of/nearly drown/shoot at or otherwise mentally abuse those who would kill me, my child, my parents, my lovers. Not all the time, but there is a time when it becomes necessary.

Firstly, this is exactly why some people want to kill Americans: because you’ve killed their families, their children, their friends.

Secondly, please give me the slightest bit of proof that those being tortured by the US have any plans to come to your country and kill civilians. You can’t, because there is none: most of the people locked up and tortured by your government are there because they were denounced by a neighbour with a grudge, or named by someone being tortured. Your government won’t even give them a real trial, because they know they’ve got no evidence at all.

I’m sure those orphaned in the aforementioned attacks feel so much better knowing that we would not do absolutely everything possible to prevent it, because we held ourselves to a higher standard.

I’m sure you realise that (a) when intelligence guys have actionable evidence, they don’t need to use torture; (b) other techniques are far more productive of real evidence (as opposed to desperate confessions of having killed JFK and betrayed Jeebus, simply to make the torture stop); the old ‘ticking clock’ scenario is a laughable parody of what really happens.

Face it: you want people to suffer because you’re afraid. You blame everyone else, see all others as enemies, and are willing to abandon the principles that you supposedly hold dear, simply to silence that fear.

Coward. Ignorant, vicious, bigoted coward.

 
 

If they pull a Knife, you pull a gun. They put one of yours in the hospital, and you put ten of theirs in the morgue.

If we cannot be loved as a global power, than better we be feared. because if we are feared for what we are capable of doing, then that fear will ultimately save lives on both sides. It’s what kept the cold war cold.

Can you think of just one scenario where torture is acceptable? If your child were being held captive? You wife? And you had the means to get you hands on someone with the knowledge of where they were?

if you wouldn’t even consider it, then you should question if you love your own child more than you value human rights.

as far as constitutional rights go, wasn’t that document written of, by, and for the people? Our constituion doesn’t apply overseas. That’s why women in Saudi cannot vote, or people in Iran aren’t free to engage in extramarital affairs, and people in Iraq are subject to search and seizure without probable cause.

Sure, it’d be great if everyone loved us. But they don’t. And some have sworn their lives to killing as many of us as they can. My daughter and son have never done anything to them, but they’ll still kill them, horrifically at that, just to make what amounts to a political statement.

And as for the Murrah building, MVceigh was a terrorist, plain and simple. Killed civilians to make a political statement about Waco. If we’d some knowledge of the attack beforehand, and gotten our hands on Terry Nichols, can you justify not using every means available in the time given to find out where he would attack?

Sorry to tell you this, but not only have I been decorated for my service in this war, I’ve also been a victim of terrorism. So yes, I suppose my views on stopping terrorism are skewed. What have you risked, to call me a coward? have you been on the ground, assessing the situation in theater? Have you been in villages where entire areas are afraid to so much as wave because of the insurgent threat, but where the people greet you warmly when you come to search their house? They understand what you are doing and why. building their trust, trust that means if they give up the insurgents, you guarantee they’ll never be bothered by them again, takes time.

We’ve lost thousands to terrorism, and you claim millions have died because of our wars in the Middle East. Here’s a small fact for you–you win wars by making the other guy suffer to the point where he no longer has the ability to conduct warfare. Just like WWI and WWII, we hammered our opponents until they no longer had the capability to make war. You cannot simply pit armies against each other, and when one Army is victorious in battle, assume that all will be forgiven and the other side will relent The civilian population must also lose it’s will to resist, and capitulate. That’s how wars are won.

put it in this context. assume that a foreign military totally and thoroughly defeated our armed forces. Would you then give up all, of your constitutional rights, and abide by whatever the conquerors told you to do? Or would you continue to fight until the cost of fighting was more than you could personally bear?

last time i checked, the constitution doesn’t grant rights, it is simply an outline of what our gummint is allowed to do by the people. More specifically, is is a document which outline the ONLY things the government is allowed to do. So if we use torture, assuming waterboarding is torture, and it is not specifically outlined in the constitution as forbidden, then it is allowed.

Finally, before you go around calling into question bravery, knowledge or racism, you may want to consider that perhaps you are not the de facto authority on such things.

And I would tell my son to wage war upon his enemies if he was deploying to war, to shoot if there was ever a doubt of his safety, to not be upset at killing others in war–killing is the business of a soldier. It is not personal, and he is not murderering. He is killing someone who means to do him harm. To have him worry about the “rightness or wrongness” of the war, or anything other than the moment, is to ask him to assume a responsibility which no one could bear at the point of contact. If you can’t understand that in a kill or be killed scenario, you either kill, or someone with much less worry about “justice” will kill you.

Dumbass.

 
 

Chuckie seems to believe that in order to win against your foes, you must become as bad as, if not worse than, them.
That is the reasoning of the ethically bereft and it is what will doom us all if the likes of the neocon authoritarians are allowed to continue their rape of democracy.

 
 

If they pull a Knife, you pull a gun. They put one of yours in the hospital, and you put ten of theirs in the morgue.

That’s how the Germans did it.

last time i checked, the constitution doesn’t grant rights, it is simply an outline of what our gummint is allowed to do by the people. More specifically, is is a document which outline the ONLY things the government is allowed to do. So if we use torture, assuming waterboarding is torture, and it is not specifically outlined in the constitution as forbidden, then it is allowed.

You haven’t checked shit. There’s more to war than the constitution, ignoramus.

 
 

Ya’ll seem to be under the impression that war can be fought cleanly. Holding ourselves tot he “Higher Moral Standard” puts us in a position of weakness. I am not saying that we don’t hold ourselves to the higher standard, but it does impair the waging of total war.

Yes, killing more of them than they of you, actions of retribution is exactly how the Germans did it. And how the Japanese did it. And how the British, French, Americans and Belgians did it. Don’t think for a minute we are innocent.

General Sherman , upon seeing his men horribly maimed by enemy mines, decided to use his POWs to clear the roads he was using. He sent one of them to the commander of the enemy forces, to let him know that is what he was doing. His actions, by today’s standards, are both immoral and illegal, according to the laws of land warfare. However, his actions also resulted in zero casualties from mines laid on his roads from that moment on.

You question methods, I see results. When it comes to warfare, the only thing that matter is results.

Sure, there’s plenty more to war than the constitution. I didn’t bring constitutionality into the argument. I carry the constitution with me everywhere I go, and have read it more times than most supreme court justices combined, I’d wager.

There are many conventions and treaties, Army Field Manual, 27-10, Geneva/Hauge, tradition, US Code, and certain UN Protocols all dictate how wars should be fought by civilized society. Unfortunately, war, by its very nature is an uncivilized and anti-social act. We try to uphold certain ideals, but if a time comes when those ideals do not hold up to reality, then we abandon–usually temporarily–those lofty ideals, because the mission requires more sanguine actions. Firebombing the civilian populations of Berlin, Dresden, Tokyo; Nuclear attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki all fit this model. Although horrific, these actions were necessary to successfully wage war, to limit our enemies ability to do the same, and in the end, saved the lives of OUR soldiers.

Determination of the “rightness” of those actions, like history, is a privilege of the victors.

Can we wait until the war is over before we discuss rightness or wrongness of an action or actions? Until all of our actions can be put into perspective?

And still, no one has answered either way this question: can you imagine ANY circumstance where any form of physical or mental torture could be justified?

 
 

It’s not specifically outlined in the Constitution because the people who founded this country never dreamed that their heirs would be monsters like you.

Honestly, if you voted for Bush in 2000 and/or 2004 (especially 2004) I’m glad you were wounded.

 
 

And shit, as to McVeigh – you fit the profile of that sort of terrorist pretty well: military training, violent dislike of some of your fellow Americans, white. I guess we have to presume that you would support an indefinite government detention and interrogation via waterboarding of yourself, then.

 
 

Honestly, if you voted for Bush in 2000 and/or 2004 (especially 2004) I’m glad you were wounded.n

Thanks Jim, I glad to know I suffered pain and disfigurement so you could take pleasure in it, based on how I exercised my rights. if you’d like to understand further what suffering is, here’s a picture of me making you happy:

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/6857/0030ahk9.jpg
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/6082/0074abp5.jpg

Enjoy, Dumbass

 
 

If we cannot be loved as a global power, than better we be feared. because if we are feared for what we are capable of doing, then that fear will ultimately save lives on both sides. It’s what kept the cold war cold.

Bzzzzt. These are not our only choices. Why would you want to be out on the internet offering up such simple and false dichotomies if you’re trying to persuade people to come around to your position? Leaving aside fear and love based foreign policy models you also forgot hatred and resentment as motivations for terrorism. Strong enough emotions in many people to overcome fear of any consequences including dying. Enough for example to convince 19 hijackers to voluntarily give up their lives to inflict damage on us. Do you think if they had been a little more afraid of us they wouldn’t have hijacked those planes and committed suicide? After all, what drives your hatred? Could fear play a part in it? Fear of what might happen to you loved ones? What makes you think that the fear you wish to see the US inspire won’t make people in other countries as belligerent as you? Sorry I don’t share your ambition to have the world fear us but it won’t protect my family and me. Just the opposite in fact so as a person who lives just outside NYC thanks a fucking lot.

 
 

I don’t pretend to speak for everyone here but that comment by Jim about being glad Chuck was wounded was pretty fucking stupid.

 
 

Hey Jim,

Glad to see you’ve taken the high road. Comments like that are the reason you and your ilk will never be taken seriously. You should be ashamed of yourself. See that was easy.—- polite discourse.

OOOhh hell, Eat my ass you sniveling bitch. I for one am thankful for men like chuck who serve to uphold the….ahhhh nevermind. Doesn’t matter what anyone says we’re just uneducated dumbasses misinterpreting and blindly following, right. I would never wish harm on you or be thankful if you were(well maybe now) but damn, a good bitch slapping is in order after that comment.

Blind follower and Republitard

RJ

hey chuck, you go girl!lol -chucksdaman

 
 

I don’t pretend to speak for everyone here but that comment by Jim about being glad Chuck was wounded was pretty fucking stupid.

You can speak for me.

 
 

Me too! Jim you fucking jackass

 
 

I guess my first post didn’t make it up. It was a little colorful, I will admit.

Kudos to Sadly No for the comments left on FMPOTW. Glad someone over here was willing to show some class.

chucksdaman

 
 

you don’t speak for me either. we thank you for your service, Chuck.

as for those that believe acts of terrorism and violence against American citizens and residents is acceptable, are you volunteering yourself and your families? didn’t think so.

but mikey, we really are not delusional nor in denial. we and he accept that war is hell and that he has PTSD… but really– he’s doing quite well… he and his wife are happy… new baby due any day… the anger has subsided and been rplaced by smiles and laughter that was missing for a while. He may be doing much better than you did because he believes in his heart and mind that he was/is fighting the good fight. In a noble cause. he and we accept that not everyone feels the same about the fight, but he has refused to surrender his dignity and convictions to those who do not see it as he does. He is a professional soldier and this is what he does — in peace or war: he serves. He contunues his treatment and will as long as necessary, and has great dreams and hopes for his future. These days, having PTSD does not mean you have to be a quivering wreck of humanity; with treatment and the continued love and support of his family, he will continue to progress. Your situation — and those as described in much of the media and films — is not the only outcome.

as some others have said, no one here is the absolute moral authority nor has the final word. I accept that many of us have diverse and differing opinions, but I can accept that without name-calling and casting aspersions. I understand that people’s opinions on what constitutes torture and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are set and there is little other than personal experience that will alter those views. But no one should be chastised or intimidated from expressing their views. Some day the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan will be over — although the war on terrorists who target free people everywhere will continue for many more years — and I am hopeful that the inflexibility of people on both sides of the issue in our country will heal.

 
 

as for those that believe acts of terrorism and violence against American citizens and residents is acceptable, are you volunteering yourself and your families?

Who said they believe that?

 
 

So if we, the people, and by that I mean the electoral college (ack, spit) were to put someone in office who was mentally ill, or mentally handicapped, then that’s okay with ya’ll?

As long as they’re elected, I suppose.

Been there, done that.

 
 

as for those that believe acts of terrorism and violence against American citizens and residents is acceptable

Nobody said that, dumbass, so reading whatever else you’ve written seems like a waste of time.

 
 

First an invatation to Jim to take a helicopter ride with me, and we will see how well his mouth runs hanging out the door at 3,000 ft. just before I drop his sorry ass for his comments about Capt. Z.

Second if you have never been in combat, then you don’t know what you are talking about, you must experience it first hand. I did and I learned really fast if they stick their head up in front of you, then you blow them away. If they are running away with a weapon, then blow them away. Otherwisw you will have to deal with them the next day and they may beat you to the draw.

As far as torture, well if they can shoot at my helicopter with a red cross on it then the Geneva convention does not apply!! I survived 21 months in combat in Vietnam and a year in Desert Storm using my theory, shoot first ask questions later. I am sorry that women and kids get killed but that is war. And when they mix in with civilians, do not wear uniforms, you have to make a choice, right or wrong, if you do not you come home in a box.

 
 

As far as torture, well if they can shoot at my helicopter with a red cross on it then the Geneva convention does not apply!!

Yes it does. Next moron please.

 
 

Chuck, I gain more respect for you every day!! As for you Jim, you made me think of the time I stepped in Poo and scraped it into the garbage.

 
 

I am sorry that women and kids get killed but that is war. And when they mix in with civilians, do not wear uniforms, you have to make a choice, right or wrong, if you do not you come home in a box.

That’s because it’s a civilian insurgency. As in, you’re occupying their country, they don’t want you there, and they’ll shoot at you to make you go back to your own country.

Let’s achieve some perspective here. If foreign soldiers were occupying the US, and they were like, “Well, it’s too bad we’re killing all these American children, but hey, it’s a tough job conquering America,” you wouldn’t be like, “Oh man, I know just how you feel.”

Everyone is always talking about ‘moral relativism,’ but here’s your moral relativism writ large. It’s okay as long as it isn’t us.

 
 

Remember back in the early 90s when conservatives were all up in arms about the US developing a culture of victimization?
Whiny little pansies.

 
 

RB… mikey said “we have nothing to fear from al Qaeda but some random violence, which you might have noticed doesn’t happen all that often

Hello??? nothing to fear but some random violence? like 9-11?? like embassy bombings? like blowing up US ships? like plans to blow up bridges, tunnels, schools and hospitals? you’re kidding, RB, right? any level of violence against Americans is unacceptable. shame you didn’t read the rest. your loss.

 
 

Hello??? nothing to fear but some random violence? like 9-11?? like embassy bombings? like blowing up US ships? like plans to blow up bridges, tunnels, schools and hospitals? you’re kidding, RB, right? any level of violence against Americans is unacceptable. shame you didn’t read the rest. your loss.

I think where we differ is in the assumption that any level of violence against Americans justifies any level of retaliation against anybody else anywhere in the world. I.e., Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with any violence against Americans, but that’s had hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties since the invasion.

Besides which, these ‘plans to blow up bridges, tunnels, schools and hospitals’ have mostly turned out to be bogus. We have to be a little straight about that.

 
 

RB… mikey said

Learn to read. Pointing out that the Al Qaeda threat has been blown out of proportion is not the same thing as saying terrorism is acceptable.

 
 

Hey Army mom,
I live in NYC. Have since 99. I knew a couple of the 3000, tho not so closely I’d use their names. I ride the subway daily. I am at risk in ways you are not. And I do not live in fear. First, because you are doing EXACTLY what the terrorists want. You’re afraid, and you’ve changed yourself because of that fear, for the worse.
Second, because the risk is vastly overstated, for the political gain of those whose actions are counterproductive to putting us in less risk. Terrorism claims fewer American lives in the average year than lightning strikes. (Plz note, I don’t subscribe to the rhetoric of calling all violence in Iraq terrorism. I am not becoming your imaginary strawman who supports violence against Americans, at all, merely refusing your presumed semantics.)
I hope, presuming your name isn’t a pretense affected for rhetorical gain, that your child comes home safe and unharmed, don’t ever doubt that. But Iraq has already claimed more American lives than 9/11, nevermind the tens if not hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives, people who we were supposed to be liberating. Your fear has made you stupid, and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Remember to apologize to your son or daughter, next time you speak to them. Your ignorance has helped put their life at risk. Great job.

 
 

Second if you have never been in combat, then you don’t know what you are talking about, you must experience it first hand. I did and I learned really fast if they stick their head up in front of you, then you blow them away. If they are running away with a weapon, then blow them away. Otherwisw you will have to deal with them the next day and they may beat you to the draw.

Huh. Proof you can provide a teachable moment, but some idiots simply cannot learn.

Yes, tough guy. You do what you have to in combat. Actually, I did quite a bit MORE than I had to, in the sense I can think of a number of lives I took that I didn’t need to take.

What I learned in war is that war is the single most stupid, wasteful, destructive, ugly, horrific waste that humans can perpetrate on other humans. And if you didn’t learn that lesson, your humanity is defective.

But if I recall correctly, one of the things I was “fighting for” was the right of Americans to dissent. I fucking well dissent, and I say I earned the right to do so. If you think I shouldn’t dissent, just exactly were YOU fighting for?

mikey

 
Qetesh the Abyssinian
 

If we cannot be loved as a global power, than better we be feared. because if we are feared for what we are capable of doing, then that fear will ultimately save lives on both sides.

The US certainly can’t be loved, after so many decades of violence against civilians around the world. But fear turns to hate, which engenders violence. Thus the brutality that you’re supporting, and all the brutality from past decades (which you seem quite ignorant of), causes hatred and violence.

I’ll say it real simple: US actions in other countries led to the hate that led to 9/11. 3000 innocent people died because the US is hated and feared. How does that help your case?

Can you think of just one scenario where torture is acceptable?

You’re making an unwarrantable assumption here: that torture is effective. It’s not. Intelligence professionals will tell you that any intel gained from torture is highly unreliable, because people will say anything to stop the pain. And the ‘ticking bomb’ scenario is about as common as hen’s teeth.

My daughter and son have never done anything to them, but they’ll still kill them, horrifically at that, just to make what amounts to a political statement.

Exactly, exactly, what many Iraqi parents are saying about you.

You cannot simply pit armies against each other, and when one Army is victorious in battle, assume that all will be forgiven and the other side will relent The civilian population must also lose it’s will to resist, and capitulate.

What fucking armies?!? Okay, deep breath. There. All better.

If you want to beat terrorism, you don’t do it with armies. Again, any intelligence professional will tell you this: the way to beat terrorism is through painstaking gathering of intelligence, police work, building networks, slowly developing trustworthy connections with other nations, developing contacts. All the unglamorous work that genuinely works against terrorism. Oh, and by not wilfully and wantonly killing civilians, which only breeds more terrorists.

Honestly, can’t you see what you’re doing? Before 9/11, Osama bin Laden was unknown to most of the world: now, he’s a household name. The US response has made him seem powerful, and popular amongst the dispossessed. The sensible response would have seen him caught and brought to justice and his network disbanded. Instead, the government refused assistance, alienated potential allies, and turned the US in a few short years from the victim to the bully.

Again, I’ll say it simply: the US government has done more for OBL than he could ever have dreamed. They’ve made him a hero, and they’ve made thousands flock to his banner, instead of catching him and making him just another criminal.

You question methods, I see results. When it comes to warfare, the only thing that matter is results.

As I’ve said before, this is not war. This is terrorism: different tactics are needed.

as for those that believe acts of terrorism and violence against American citizens and residents is acceptable, are you volunteering yourself and your families? didn’t think so.

No-one here believes acts of terrorism are ever acceptable, regardless of the nationality or religion of the victims.

I am sorry that women and kids get killed but that is war.

The war was not their choice, idiot. Iraq was not responsible for 9/11. So you’re killing innocent Iraqis for someone else’s crime. Do you believe that’s fair?

And your comment above sounds very like some of OBL’s pronouncements. Does it bother you, that you think like a terrorist?

And when they mix in with civilians, do not wear uniforms, you have to make a choice, right or wrong, if you do not you come home in a box.

Of course they mix with civilians: they are civilians. You’re fighting to impose an occupation, not fighting a war. The Iraqi army has already given up. And there’s an easy way to reduce US casualties: get out of their fucking country.

 
 

different brad… yes, my son really is a Third Infantry Division soldier… and just for effect, we lived in suburban NY and I worked right down there on 9/11/01 (moved to NY in ’78)… and I actually can name a number of those we lost in the Towers… lived until recently in the smallest county in NYState that after 9/11 had 4 or more funerals for firefighters and other first responders EVERY DAY FOR WEEKS… the local newspaper ran a column that started “The following remains have been identified at the World Trade Center…” FOR 13 MONTHS afterwards…got a son ON the NYPD (PSA8)… I didn’t change my life after 9/11… continued to commute and work and lived our lives — to honor all those who were murdered. didn’t run scared then, not running scared now. can’t imagine how you think that is… because a significant portion of the country’s population have awakened to the threat?

and terrorism IN THE UNITED STATES takes fewer lives than lightning each year (I asume you mean in any year EXCEPT 2001?) and you attribute this to… ignoring it or because we remain vigilant?

as for my son, I need not apologize for anything… he is my bigest fan and I, his. couldn’t be prouder of him… but I’ll convey your concern. he’ll be touched.

 
 

“awakened to the threat”…
There’s your fear right there, along with the political rhetoric you use.
I’m too not 100% today to get into this for real, but the best of intentions are long past being a valid excuse.

 
 

Okay. Let us repeat what the FBI, the /honest/ CIA people (All two of them) and any experienced interrogation expert has to say on the subject of torture:

It. Does. Not. WORK.

All torture proves is that people will say anything to get it to stop. And it may not be the information you need to stop the ‘ticking clock’ scenario popularized by ’24’…which the experts say NEVER happens.

Don’t beleive me? Check out the following links:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/05/AR2007100502492_pf.html

— WWII veterans discuss their views on the subject of interrogation

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/

— Malcolm Nancy, a 20-year veteran of the world’s intelligence community.

OR, you could get all these links and more at http://liz-marcs.livejournal.com/302527.html , which is where I got ’em

Whoops, I think I just lost the neocons. Aw, dey look so KYOOT When dey sleepin…*sets traps*

 
 

When I left for vietnam, my mom cried. And she asked me to be careful and to come home safe. She didn’t, thank god, encourage me to kill, kill, kill the enemy and be a lifetakin motherfucker. That was kind of more the sergeant.

And any mom who thinks that’s in any way helpful, that a boy wants to picture his mom as all gung ho kill and burn and rape and just shoot anybody who gets in your way doesn’t understand what it feels like, the unreality of rotating home from a combat zone.

And I don’t know, and she’s gone now, but I’ll go to my grave thinking that my mom would rather have me come home in a bag with honor than kill a bunch of innocents trying to get home safe. The whole, I count and the rest of ’em can die, for all I care kind of outlook.

Sadly, I killed a bunch of innocents, and I took a bunch of lives, not all needed taking, and I hurt and crippled and maimed a bunch of people and laughed about it.

But I never told my mom. And my heart tells me she would not have been proud.

Gawd. Where do these asshats come from?

mikey

 
 

… and I actually can name a number of those we lost in the Towers…

A lot of people can. But you’re the person who wants to torture people in a country that had fuck-all to do with it as a result. I assume that when someone robs the local bank you’ll support arson in Malaysia.

 
 

Fuck that.

I got back incorrect change today from the hardware store.

Now I support arson in Malaysia….

mikey

 
Qetesh the Abyssinian
 

Mikey, how is it that you can always make me cry?

 
 

Mikey,
Your war, (Vietnam) is surprisingly different from My way (Iraq). While you wantonly killed, maimed, burned, etc. the “innocents” and later laughed about it, we tend not to do that anymore, except in isolated examples (Abu G).

Your Military was resplendent with drug use, low morale, draftees, “go to war or go to jail” cases, and even lower discipline. My Military is the extreme opposite–morale and retention are at record levels, drug use occurs in a very narrow margin, and is hunted down and prosecuted, there is no draft, and we are a much more disciplined organization than any other in history.

While I don’t doubt you’ve had to battle your own demons, being a self-confessed war criminal, mass murder, etc., we don’t often face the “kid with a grenade” scenario. We don’t “do the ville” and we don’t cause needless destruction. Sorry, but that was how your military lost your war.

My views on Vietnam are far from the Oliver Stone model, and even further from the rest of the popular media. My views are based upon my father’s experience as an Infantryman and Medic in the Big Red One (1ID) from 1968-1969, reading factual accounts and through talking with other veterans about their experiences.

Fortunately, most of the accounts I’ve heard from that war also differ from your experience as a killer and crippler of innocents.

I am not belittling your experience as a veteran, or your suffering from PTSD, but I do question your lashing out at the mother of a soldier who gives advice to her son, that she would rather see him come home alive than dead. Surely, it isn’t the spartan “with your shield or on it” advice, and it isn’t the June Cleaver method you espouse of just saying “I love you and miss you, here’s a sandwich and some cookies for your trip” even though mom realizes that her son could be horribly maimed or even killed.

3IDMom told her son that he was to do anything he had to do to return home–not ride home on a wave of blood from the slaughter of innocents. Just that if he had to make a decision between killing or not killing, when there was some confusion as to whether he should shoot, , then he should shoot. Basically, her advice parallels the first tenet of the military’s rules of engagement: You always maintain the right to defend yourself. Second rule: If you are in a situation where you feel that your own life is in danger, or the lives of others are in danger, or designated protected property is in danger, then you have a duty to defend yourself, your soldiers, and/or the property, by whatever means are available to remove the danger.

I think she summed it up much better than that. I also think that her motivations are pure, and she’s not sanguine in her advice. Would you rather a mother who stood on principles, or one who showed that the love of her son and his life was more more important to her than anything else?

Crazy, PTSD’d, or any other way, her son is home and safe. Isn’t that more important and altogether better than the other option?

 
 

Funny how Army3IDMom doesn’t link to her own blog. Maybe because we’ll see that some of her claims here are, how you say? — bullshite

 
 

You know, Chuck, there’s just not a lot in your last post I can disagree with. Except there’s no need for mom to talk like a sergeant. She should not be the one encouraging the killing. Hell, you know as well as I do that when it comes down to it, we’re gonna do what it takes to survive, even if our mom didn’t step into some kind of cheerleader for death role instead of being an anchor for peace and sanity.

But what’s the point? I experienced war and I learned it is a terrible, destructive, ugly and so often unnecessary waste. I both recognize that there have been times historically when war was necessary, and a quick look at my criminal history would quickly disabuse you of any notion that I might be a pacifist.

But Iraq was a war of choice. When Hitler invaded france and russia, the world united to roll back those acts of criminal aggression. The same with Kim’s invasion of the south in 1950 and Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait in 1989. Starting unnecessary wars, aggressive invasion of nations with whom you are at peace, military occupation with it’s associated horrors – things are things that civilized societies are opposed to, and that is why I speak out.

In Iraq, we are THE FUCKING BAD GUY! I don’t want us to be the bad guy. I don’t want us to detain and torture, occupy and dominate, stand by and not just watch, but enable ethnic or sectarian cleansing. I don’t want the US to be a war criminal, a rogue nation, a country that takes it’s guidance in foreign affairs from the worst criminals in history, that justifies it’s behavior with the bizarre excuse that the worst of our enemies act that way, so we must.

We are better than that. I WANT us to be better than that. I am not afraid, and I am willing to accept an elevated level of risk to maintain the ideals this nation has, up until this decade, believed, espoused and for the most part lived up to.

I’ll never understand a war cheerleader. But if you’ve seen it, the waste, the sickness, the disease, the crimes and the fear and hopelesness, the destruction and the hate, then to do anything but resist more agressive wars of choice and try to roll back the current occupation is beyond the pale…

mikey

 
 

I have seen Iraq Mikey. The waste, sickness, disease, crimes, fear and hopelessness, destruction and hate.

But I have also seen the good. I have been warmly welcomed and praised by Iraqis for what we have done. For most Iraqis, the worst day of our “occupation” is better than the best day under Saddam.

We are guests of the current, democratically elected (with complete suffrage), Iraqi government. Not a provisional authority, mind you, but a constitutionally elected government.

Not all in Iraq is roses, I’m the first to admit that. But believe it or not, the “man in the street” feeling is that we are welcome; we keep them generally safe, and we have made their lot in life exponentially better.

From farm villages to the heart of the Diyala province (which was my sector of operations) I found that to be the norm. Those that hated us were by and large NOT the everyday population. Most often, the guys I caught with IEDs, AKs, RPGs, mortars, etc were either foreigners–Iranian, Jordanian or Syrian, or they were Iraqi “outsiders”–not from the local area.

If villages felt safe enough (because of our presence) they would tell us about the “outsiders,” often leading us to them or showing us where to look. If the village was not a secure area, then the people were generally reticent outside, but once indoors (and out of sight/sound of the bad guys) they were very friendly and often great hosts. They may or may not give up the bad guys, but they were very seldom hostile.

Not everywhere in Iraq is like this, but it is getting better, honest. I am not pushing an agenda or supporting any political ideology when I say that. Overall, Iraq is changing for the better. It will take years, possibly decades, but it is getting better. We are succeeding. We are helping them take responsibility for their country, as well as giving them notions of civic duty and responsibility, as opposed to the former model of despotism where things happened only when they were told to do them.

The Iraqi Army is not filled with cowards, they don’t run when being shot at. Perhaps that was the norm in the beginning, but when I reached out of the canal after being blown up, it was one of my Iraqi counterparts who pulled me up. I’ve seen them defend their headquarters and checkpoints against overwhelming odds, and fight until they themselves were badly wounded–with the full understanding that their medical care would be at a third-world hospital. (Of course, I changed that, and My Iraqi soldiers received the same care as my American soldiers.) I treated them as allies, period.

Leaving them to twist in the wind and suffer civil war, with heaping helpings of influence from Syria and Iran is not something I am willing to do. If our presence keeps outsiders at bay, then I think we should stay. I think we have an obligation and a responsibility to help their democracy flourish.

But hey, I’m just a dumb soldier.

 
 

Fortunately, most of the accounts I’ve heard from that war also differ from your experience as a killer and crippler of innocents.

I am not belittling your experience as a veteran, or your suffering from PTSD, but…

I can’t believe people still try this one.

This rhetorical technique, common on talk radio, consists of making an stunningly brazen attack on someone, then immediately playing innocent.

It works better on radio because in print, people can go back and see what you just said.

Chuck, if you’re going to try scoring points by belittling someone’s experience as a veteran, don’t play hide-and-seek about it.

 
 

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