I’ve spent eleven years working in pit bull rescue groups, extricating them from those kinds of situations and trying, if possible, to rehabilitate them and place them in homes, but obviously, it’s endless and there aren’t enough homes willing and able.

I hate worthless motherfuckers like Vick with the white-hot intensity of a thousand suns, and I’ll refrain from typing in a public forum what I’d personally like to do to that walking piece of shit with my own two hands. Sweet holy fuck, I hate that bastard.

What a worthless piece of crap “ookie” turned out to be. Jesus, read through those 18 pages and vomit. He even had a “rape stand: – a device in which a female dog who is too aggressive to submit to males for breeding is strapped down with her head held in place by a restraint”

There should be a hell for this asshole…or a pit bull heaven where he and his business associates can go pureed with assorted vegetables in tins.

If this pig doesn’t do heavy jail time and lose every fucking thing he owns….

Study hard, they said. Get a college education. Keep your nose clean, work hard and with a little luck you might get drafted by the NFL. Get what, an eight million dollar contract plus a signing bonus? Oh yeah. That’s just the kind of hard working, dedicated, righteous guy you want your son to emulate.

Not us dope smokin hippies without any skin on the wall, sheep OR dog. Nah. Mabye ookie and pacman can share a cell. Fuckers.

Hey. The worst he’ll get is a year suspended, I bet. But even if he has to serve out a few months, I bet the League will allow him to come back. Sure. He’s a quarterback….

mikey

My god that is sad, just sad.

He should be put in a small cage with three angry and hungry pit bulls. I’m sorry, make that four.

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution has the indictment as a single pdf if you don’t want to click through The Smoking Gun’s individual pages or if you want to download it.

From today’s Journal-Constitution:

Vick has bred and sold pit bulls and other breeds through two companies: Mike Vick K-9 Kennels and MV7 Inc., named for his initials and his football jersey number. The companies’ Web site — recently taken offline — described their animals as “family pets.”

“We do not promote, support or raise dogs for fighting, ” the Web site said, “and will not knowingly sell, give or trade any dog that may be used for fighting.”

By chance, just two months ago:

NFL star Michael Vick sold his rural Surry County home this week at a cut-rate price as an investigation continued into whether the property supported a large dog-fighting operation – and if Vick knew about it.

The gated white house and its 15 acres – valued at $747,000 in county records – went on sale Wednesday morning for $350,000 and was sold later that day, said John Brooks, a Virginia Beach Realtor who was contacted to help with the sale.

Brooks did not make the deal and said he did not know who bought the home at 1915 Moonlight Road. He didn’t get a chance to show the house before Vick’s representatives sold it by owner, he said.

What a collection of sick fucks. Vick’s celebritynotoriety & wealth should earn him the maximum sentence & fine.
I am proud that it is mostly dirty fucking hippie leftists who are involved in animal rescue & care. I don’t cruise the wingnut-o-sphere that much, but I don’t remember seeing any donation buttons for these sorts of causes in their dark little world. Keep up the good work.

That’s gunna be stuck in my head all say, now…

Emperor USA: Would that be the “Out of the Pits” group?

Best dog I ever had was half-pit bull. She looked like Petey on the way-old “Little Rascals” TV show. My kids grew up with her. She died at age 15. Gentle, smart, loving, loyal, protective, beautiful dog and now I’m all verklempt.

When I read about things like this, I hope in my next life I come back as a dog or a cat so that, unlike now, I’ll have no reason to feel ashamed of my species.

I hope this dog-torturer at least manages to stay out of jail long enough to do a couple of campaign stops for Romney.

Okay, yeah. Low-blow. I shouldn’t be making light of this, after all there is nothing sadder than seeing a hero to little boys across the country disgraced before their very eyes. I wag my finger at the law enforcement officials who chose to investigate this with the same intensity at which I wagged it at Larry Flynt. If nobody got caught, it would have been like nothing bad ever happened!

MzNicky:

No, mostly just small local organizations here in Virginia (yeah, I’ve been hearing lots about this case for a while now), including the “Me, Myself and I” group, but I donate money to the bigger national groups when I can. A friend of mine is a vet, and she helps me out, especially in negotiating with people where I would probably accomplish nothing but being arrested for aggravated assault.

I’ve got seven in my house that made it to full-time family members, one of whom would have probably been killed by Vick for not being a good enough fighter, which is how I was able to convince the scum that had him to let me take him off their hands. He’s the most mushy, sensitive one of the pack, a total goofball, but terrified of strangers – no surprise, I guess. There have been a few I’ve come across who were just too mentally damaged to ever be safe as pets, but amazingly, most of them are so resilient it just kills me.

The stupid fuck put his name on two criminal enterprises that were operating through interstate commerce. Michael “Ookie” Vick is trash on top of being stupid. “Ookie”? Are you fucking kidding me? Scumbag.

I wonder how hard it would be to find a right-wing/libertarian web site defending Michael Vick on this.

Not necessarily right-wing, but her’s a sports blog that’s totally down with puppy torture.  There are more of these out there as well.

Oh hey, what a surprise, here’s Vox Day:

As I’ve said before, I don’t think dog-fighting should be illegal, or cock-fighting or beetle-fighting or whatever other sort of animal combat is enjoyed by the lower classes. The more sensitive and aesthetically inclined may not enjoy it, but then, I don’t like television and it’s a lot easier to make a case for the harmful effects of television than for all the animal combats in the world combined.

I expect more libertarian exonerations of dogfighting (along with face-saving tongue-clicking at the quality of Vick’s character) with the next update of Town Hall.

Go directly to jail do not pass go. I was volunteering at the city animal shelter but I couldn’t take it so I just drop off food now. I also acquired another cat and living in an apartment now I can’t take them all home. If I still owned my house, I would be one of those crazy cat ladies (dogs too). This disgusting vermin shows you can take the boy out of the ghetto but you can’t take the etc. If that’s racist, then fucking sue me. I put these criminals on the same level as child molesters. There is no punishment harsh enough IMHO.

If you’re an insider, Emperor, can you tell us what the Surry County prosecutor’s role was in all this? The guy who runs the PFT website seemed to think the prosecutor was deliberately trying to stall and limit the case, and pointed to another case a few years ago where a dogfighter in that county got off lightly.

From The Atlanta Journal-Constitution (6/27/07):

Authorities in Surry County, Va., investigating animal cruelty and dogfighting allegations at a home owned by Falcons quarterback Michael Vick, have not held a second evidence review according to the office of the prosecutor.

Surry County sheriff Harold Brown, Commonwealth attorney Gerald Poindexter and other investigators said earlier this month they planned to review new and existing evidence. However, there has been no evidence review since federal authorities launched their investigation June 8.

Local investigators have not gathered any additional evidence from the property after federal investigators, including the U.S. Department of Agriculture, searched the property based on their own search warrant.

Poindexter’s office did not disclose if local, state and federal agents are working jointly after initially staging dual investigations. Shortly after federal agents collected evidence from the property owned by Vick, Brown and Poindexter left open the possibility of a joint investigation.

There was a review of evidence discovered in a late-April police raid, in which 66 dogs, mainly pit bulls, and other items allegedly related to dogfighting were discovered. At that time, Poindexter declined to move forward with charges against Vick or anyone else.

I imagine the federal indictment will put pressure on local authorities to move on the case.

And from today’s Hampton Roads Daily Press:

Surry County Commonwealth’s Attorney Gerald G. Poindexter said he was not surprised by Vick’s indictment Tuesday but was caught off guard by the timing of it. “I thought it might take longer,” he said.

Poindexter said his offices will continue to press forward with its investigation, regardless of federal charges of interstate criminal activity. “All we have to show is that dogfighting occurred in Surry County. I don’t care what happened in North Carolina,” Poindexter said. He was referring to the part of the indictment that said participants and dogs traveled from other states. He added that his office was interested in pursuing criminal charges on dog killing, which was not part of the federal indictment.

I once saw Samuel L. Jackson on some talk show and he was asked his opinion on which was the tougher business, professional athletics or professional acting. Without even a moment hesitation, he said professional acting. He said truly gifted athletes are recognized when they are kids, basically. They are nurtured, coddled, given everything they want until they make it to the pros. No actor is like that: an actor gets rejected a hundred times for every part they get. So the few who do make it know well the fragility of their position.

So, think about Vick: he has never, ever, ever in his life, from the age of 13 or so been told that the rules apply to him. Everything has always been shaped to make it easy for him, because he can play football. Is it any surprise that such a man would do this? Can you imagine his surprise that some “Poindexter” now has the gall to stop him from doing exactly as he pleases?

And, no, I don’t believe for one instant that his football career is over. The rules just don’t apply to people like Vick.

Can you say O.J.?

I knew y’could….

mikey

Oh yeah, the AR gang will be cheering, but not for the reasons you think.

They’ll be cheering because some of their favourite myths will be reinforced, depending on how our noble reporters in the MSM spin this.

What are those myths?

That all ‘pit bulls’ (a nonexistent breed of dog) are fighting dogs; that all owners of ‘pit bulls’ are gun-totin’, drug-dealin’, dog-fightin’ lowlives; that ‘pit bulls’ are ‘the most abused and neglected type of dog and should therefore be banned’.

Yeah, I like that AR ‘logic’. Man, do I ever.

Here’s how it works:

Since little kids fall out of apartment windows with alarming frequency and since they are the ‘most abused and neglected’ demographic in society, how about if we just ban kids? For their own protection, of course.

Presto, chango, no more kids falling out of windows or being mistreated by villains.

As for Vick, IF he’s convicted, I’d like to see him go a few rounds in the yard with Bubba Rednose.

Wouldn’t you?

This disgusting vermin shows you can take the boy out of the ghetto but you can’t take the etc. If that’s racist, then fucking sue me.

dude that is not right.

yossarian –

This disgusting vermin shows you can take the boy out of the ghetto but you can’t take the etc. If that’s racist, then fucking sue me.

Hey idiot: you defend dogs only to turn around and denigrate another human – proudly! – with racist remarks? Dog torturers/killers are indeed lowlife subhumans–but you are, too. Stay proud of your racism (you probably figure why, after all, your “right” to be dirt-ignorant should ever be taken away), and you’ll remain a proud subhuman.

Caveat-

As a dog owner who has pulled an eight-week old, dying beagle puppy out of a mouth of a pit bull (and got cussed out by the negligent pit’s owner for discplining the crap out of his dog afterwards) and as someone who has had to shell out $500 out of his pocket to repair his labrador’s face after ANOTHER negligent (and flat broke) pit bull owner let his loaded, untrained, gun off the lead –>

I take furious exception to the yarn you’re trying to spin.

Pit Bull Terriers are a very real, very exceptional breed of dog. I don’t care if AKC recognizes this or not.

Oh, and before you blab about AR this and that, I dated a girl a few years back whose mother was walking their sheltie through the neighborhood. During this walk, her mother and dog were attacked by an off-lead pit owned by some jerk on the next block; the mother died in the hospital due to complications several days later. Why don’t you give her a call and tell her that pits are a non-existant breed and/or justa misunderstood critter? I’m sure she’d be positively thrilled to hear your theories.

And no, it is not the breed that is the problem, per se, it is the type of animal who handles and breeds them that germinates the problem. Aka the owner.

Pitt owners fall into three very specific categories, with no exception:

The “Cesar Milan” type- this category of pitt owner is admirable, spending considerable resources, effort, and time rescuing and rehabilitating mentally and physically damaged dogs. I’ve only known one pit owner that fits this category.

The “dirt poor redneck/hippie” type- these idiots are perhaps the most contemptable class of pit owner, as they infantalize and spoil an animal which is a generation away from the dog baiting ring. They don’t know how to discipline their pets (a breed that desperately needs strong structure and discipline.) Out of sheer vanity and a fear of emasculation by proxie, this owner will not neuter the male dog, and are happy to let the animal off lead. Everything is fun and games with these jokers, even after they kill someone elses pet (or injure/kill a child or elderly person.) This category makes every other dog owner’s lives significantly more difficult than it needs to be, and they wonder why everyone else sneers at them at the dog park.

Then there is the ‘alleged Michael Vick’ type. Sociopaths, the lot of them.

The first category is to be lauded.

The second category should be neutered (or spayed). That includes the dog and the owner.

The last category should be prosecuted and severely punished if convicted.

gjdodger –

No, I’m not an insider in any important way; sorry if I gave that impression. I just meant that among the people I know in animal rescue, this has been a big topic, since we all know people who have been involved in dogfighting to some extent, and we’re constantly frustrated by how near-impossible it is to effectively prosecute cases.

Those Vick boys, huh? Class gentlemen, both of them. Their momma must be so proud. (Although at least Marcus was a complete prick to other human beings; he didn’t bring defenseless animals into it.)

One of the worst aspects of this is something I heard on the radio a couple weeks ago from an ex-law-enforcement officer who’d had some experience dealing with this type of thing. He said that nine times out of ten, when a dog gets stolen, it’s been taken by a dogfighting “enthusiast” who needs a dog for his pit bull to practice on. They just throw the stolen dog in the ring so that the pit can tear it to shreds and get toughened up for the next fight.

I think about someone taking my sweet, adorable 2-year-old Boston terrier, the mascot of the entire neighborhood, and subjecting her to that kind of treatment and it makes me want to put Ron Mexico’s head through a plate-glass window. All that money, all that fame, and this is the best life he could carve out for himself?

‘Blank’ (Kory? Is that you?)

Your points about ownership apply to all breeds and I agree with them.

But.

A few anecdotes do not a trend predict. I can match your tales with equally distressing ones involving Cocker spaniels, Labrador retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Dachshunds, Border Collies, a motley assortment of mutts and so on.

If you are referring to the American Pit Bull terrier, the most popular purebred dog in the US by a huge margin (2005 US registrations: APBT 250,000 (ADBA), Labrador retriever 180,000 (AKC). Canada 2006: APBT 127, Labrador retriever 8,749), there are many lines and, as with all popular breeds, many different types of owners, from criminal and incompetent to responsible and committed. There are ethical and unethical breeders. That’s obvious. Most APBTs are pets, working dogs, police and rescue dogs, all round utility dogs, weight pulling champs or show dogs. A few are, unfortunately, misused by scum who think tormenting animals is ‘sport’.

The American Staffordshire terrier, an AKC breed, split from the APBT to become a purely pet/conformation breed in the 1930s, although it can be cross registered with the UKC. This breed is fairly popular in the US, very rare in Canada (2006 regs in Canada: 104). I can’t find my US stats just now. Seventy years is more than one generation. In canines, it is more like 140.

The Staffordshire Bull terrier, most diminuitive of the three purebreds erroneously dubbed ‘pit bulls’ by those who know little about the subject, is consistently in the top ten family breeds registered in the UK, is more rare in the US and exceedingly rare in Canada (106 registrations in Canada in 2006). It is one of only two breeds whose standard states that it must be good with children.

What most people mean when they say ‘pit bull’ is a mongrel dog of unknown ancestry with certain features such as smooth hair, a boxy head and a whip tail. None of these dogs could ever possibly exhibit the same characteristics, due to either their unrelated, random ancestry or, in the case of lookalike purebreds (over 20 estimated by the AKC/CKC) their purebred status as a type distinct from the Bull and Terrier breeds.

The point of this is:

1. A few anecdotes are meaningless in terms of forming an opinion or predicting any kind of popular trend, particularly in the case of statistically rare occurrences with many confounders, such as breed identification.

2. There will always be bad owners of all breeds but they are fortunately a tiny minority. News is about anomalies, not regular occurrences.

3. The AR gang has one goal in mind: the eventual outlawing of domestic animal husbandry. This has been publicly stated on numerous occasions by the leading AR organizations. They wish to outlaw pet ownership, which they see as a form of ‘slavery’ (who is the slave remains to be seen) and therefore support the banning of dog breeds – always starting with the media darlings.

Mandatory sterilization of pet dogs, insanely complex ownership regulations and all the rest of it are AR linked. The political hacks and the handmaidens in the MSM are ‘useful idiots’ or deliberate actors in that game.

These groups spend no money on animal welfare. They operate no rescues, shelters, low cost clinics, etc, as do reputable organizations such as the one linked above by Emperor.

They use the tens of millions collected annually from soft-hearted people to lobby at all levels of government, to influence the media and to promote their goal of eliminating domesticated animals through advertising and publicity stunts.
.
I’m sorry for your bad experiences but even you agree they were a result of incompetent ownership encouraged by a lack of enforcement of simple bylaws and had nothing to do with the shape, or perceived ‘breed’ of the dogs involved..

Thank you Caveat.

The AR gang has one goal in mind: the eventual outlawing of domestic animal husbandry. This has been publicly stated on numerous occasions by the leading AR organizations. They wish to outlaw pet ownership, which they see as a form of ’slavery’ (who is the slave remains to be seen) and therefore support the banning of dog breeds – always starting with the media darlings.

Ok, look. I don’t have a dog in this fight. Sorry. Ahem, anyway. I’m not a pet owner, and I don’t really like dogs. But this is the kind of “stated goal” that gets applied to extremist organizations, and I’m always a little disappointed when it gets used in an otherwise civil and reasonable argument. This will never happen. Nothing close to this will ever happen. People like having pets, they like breeding pets, and the government isn’t going to try to legislate that other than making sure they have a revenue stream from licensing fees.

The muslims will never create a worldwide caliphate. The mexicans will never reconquista aztlan. The dominionists will never establish biblical law in the US.

The most extreme views have the least support. The fact that a few crazies want some kind of totalitarian legislation for their pet causes (sorry again, can’t help myself) should not be accepted to mean that this is some kind of impending possibility.

I had to mention that. I found the whole discussion interesting and quite fairly argued, and that particular piece just jumped out at me as a tad disingenuous. Please carry on. ‘Cause it’s a dog eat dog thread. Sor…oh, you know..

mikey

yossarian

nice stereotype there, asshole… i grew up in the fucking ghetto/barrio whatever the fuck you want to call it and anyone i’ve ever known who owned dogs of any sort, pitbull or otherwise, would be angry and upset to see a potential pet or watchdog put to such gross mistreatment, so having said that, i think you can take your “ghetto” generalization, roll it in some salt and broken glass, turn it to a 45 degree angle (hold the lube) and jam it right up your ass

Caveat,

Dude,

Your devotion to your breed and wariness to animal rights groups notwithstanding, but:

You’ve dismissed three particularly brutal experiences I’ve encountered with your breed as anecdotal.

You’ve drawn a straight line between the temperment of cocker spaniels and attack breeds with the temperment of GOLDEN RETRIEVERS. You are aware that the dog has 78 chromosomes, and is capable of having distinct traits bred into it? I’m not denying that nurture and discipline are forces which shape a dog’s temperment, why are you defensively denying that breed does not? Perhaps you can answer the question ‘Why is it that the American Staffordshire Terrier one of two breeds required to have a good temperment with children?’ Surely this breed has never done anything bad to a child.

Regardless, as an owner of labs and goldens, I challenge your bluff.

Please feel free to match my ‘tales’ of human and pet death caused by your beloved breed with Laboradors and Golden Retrievers. Hell, I’ll even give you Border Collie. Name me 1 (one) person that you have firsthand knowledge of dying due to an attack by these breeds. Hell, I’ll even give you ‘severely injured.’

From the tone of your post, I see you are firmly in the ‘this handsome breed is innocuous and misrepresented in the press.’

Please tell me you do not own a pit.

Mikey,

It is happening. All around you. You just haven’t noticed it because you are not a pet owner. A lot of pet owners haven’t noticed it.

Australia
Italy
Germany
UK
Ireland
New Zealand
Ontario, Canada
Louisville, Kentucky
Denver, Colorado
State of California
Fairfield, Iowa
Little Towns in the Middle

Believe me, it’s happening, while everybody sleepwalks. Took me awhile to do enough research to believe it too. That happened about 5 years ago, a bit late.

Here’s a link to some quotes:
http://www.nopitbullbans.com/?page_id=7

The reason the ‘pit bull’ is the poster child is because it is an ubiquitous type of mongrel, ‘everydog’ if you like and the vagueness helps. It’s a red herring made in heaven to scare the bejeebers out of John Q, distract him while we deal from the bottom of the deck.

I’m no tinfoil hatter, anything but. Skepticism is always my first reaction to everything. It’s true.

btw Thanks for the tip about the decoy fish. I picked up a fake Koi and so far, so good!

You’ve dismissed three particularly brutal experiences I’ve encountered with your breed as anecdotal.

That’s because they’re anecdotes.

heh-

Mikey, given the level of defensiveness on parade, the veiled hostility to neuter and spay programs, and the sheer level of denial in that post, disingenuous is not the word for it.

Actually, Kory, I don’t own a ‘pit’ but then, nobody does because there’s no such thing..

I currently own two Brussels Griffons and a geriatric miniature Dachshund, but I’ve had all kinds of dogs.

Seriously injured? Easy. Ontario this spring, Golden Retriever sent a toddler to hospital. Texas, same month, a Golden Retriever mauled a kid. Right out of the blue. My friend had her face disfigured by an American Cocker spaniel, needed extensive plastic surgery. Border Collie went berserk in Barrie, Ontario last year, had to be shot by the police to stop the rampage. And so on.

Here’s a good link, keeping in mind these are media reports so must be taken with a grain of salt. It’s a link to a post I put up, a bit out of date but the website I wanted to link is being renovated right now:

http://caveat.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2005/12/9/1443099.html

I don’t dispute that there are bad bull and terrier owners out there. Far from it.

I just happen to know that aggression, by which people usually mean antisocial, violent behaviour, is not inheritable but learned. The scientific literature to date confirms that.

C’mon over to my blog and play, I don’t want to monopolize this comments section.

So Bubba-

Perhaps these are one-offs, perhaps my friend’s mother was the ONLY person in the history of canine-homonid relations that has been attacked by a pit bull, or some non-‘ADBA’ sanctioned derivative of the attack breed commonly known as the pit bull.

But hey, perhaps the link Caveat provided to PETA activists talking about tinfoil nonsense, are in fact anecdotes.

Perhaps the anecdote that Denver does not in fact have a pit bull ban may make Caveat feel a little better.

Hey, here’s a little anecdotal advice from http://www.pitbulllovers.com/pitbull-attacks-deadly.html:

“Until Pit Bull owners and the general public start working together to draft laws that address the core problem (irresponsible owners) we will continue to see unstable, untrained, unfixed, dogs attack and kill.”

But hey, uniform regulations and laws will surely result in the abolition of pets.

WAIT WAIT WAIT-

Cocker Spaniels are violent breeds, particularly when it comes to children. Please don’t equate these with working dogs.

I am sorry for your friend. I note that this is the ONLY personal experience you’ve cited.

All the other’s smack of the “My girlfriend in Toronto, you don’t know her name, you’ve never met her, she’s a model and super-cool” variety.

So golden retrievers and collies around North America hurt people. Did they knock them down? Were they rabid or infected? Were they abused.

My three examples that I cited were unprovoked attacks by the breed you refer to as a ‘red-herring.’ These are personal experiences, not some nonsense I pulled out of teh Google.

P.S., I’m not Kory. I am the *.

“and in other news today, a small community along the Texas border awoke to horror as the children on their way to school were set upon by a vicious pack of feral chihuahuas. Up next, the Pekingese menace, what can you do when confronted by these fluffballs of doom”

uh-huh.

So Bubba-

Was your argument anecdotal? Yes. Does it remain anecdotal? Yes. The quality of your argument does not increase when you complain that you’ve been caught making a weak one. If you have data, show it. I’m not a dog-owner or lover, so you have the opportunity to convince me if you can pull it off. Can you?

Sigh…I even set up an open post for you, Kory/Michael/Paul/Dorking.

A few more news articles, then you can do your own digging:

http://caveat.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2007/3/14/2805154.html
http://caveat.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/2/25/1782370.html
http://caveat.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/5/25/1985223.html (some links dead, too lazy to look for my archived articles)
http://caveat.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2007/3/22/2827318.html

Well, you get the idea.

btw, I’m not opposed to sterilization, I’m in favour of it – all my pets are neutered. I’m opposed to mandatory, government nanny-legislated, AR-driven sterilization – there’s a big difference. What’s the outcome if you sterilize all dogs as they tried in CA with AB1634? No more dogs. As Ingrid likes to say ‘one generation and out’. And she has the bucks to back up her plan.

btw, there was a Chihuahua that terrorized a neighbourhood, reported in the press, can’t find the article or remember the exact details. It was declared a dangerous dog.

Like the ‘fluffballs of doom’ thing though…:)

Oh, and just to get “*” going again, I don’t believe there is any such thing as an unprovoked attack, barring disease or disorder. It’s just that humans aren’t too good at body language – unlike dogs.

Check out the link I posted in my previous note, might inform you a bit.

See you later…we got the beer on ice and the lobsters on the boil!

I don’t believe there is any such thing as an unprovoked attack

I had a friend with a golden retriever that took down a motorcyclist who was riding down the street.

Bubba,

That’s prey drive and it is a basic trait of dogs which are, after all, pack-hunting predators. Blame the owner, should have had the dog under control.

Those Goldens are badasses, for sure.

hold up a minute folks-I was born in a housing project in the inner city and have lived my whole life there (the inner city not the projects). Calling a spade a spade (no pun intended) is what it is. To put it more delicately so I don’t offend any one’s sensitivities, think Beverly Hillbillies. The apartment I live in now is in what was a high rise project when I was a kid. All my immediate nieghbors on this floor are black. I went through grade school with kids of color. Am I racist no -realistic yes.
Seeing that my ex-husband died of AIDS 6 years ago and my son the crackhead is out on parole again and probably not for long-that would make me white trash according to your reactionary yardsticks. So.

That’s prey drive and it is a basic trait of dogs which are, after all, pack-hunting predators. Blame the owner, should have had the dog under control.

Sure, and my friend was a real jerk when it came to that nitwit animal, but he got sued as a result and may have learned a lesson.

To the guy on the bike, though, that’s an unprovoked attack, and I’ll say it is too. Redefining your terms to acknowledge dog-reality rather than people-reality is a pretty big feature of arguments involving pets.

yossarian –

I have no idea what your point is.

to say that Michael Vick’s problems are inevitable given his race and childhood locale is silly and wrong. your personal history doesn’t excuse it.

I’m with Kathleen. Really now:

Calling a spade a spade (no pun intended)

Obviously a pun was intended or you would have chosen a different metaphor.

I’m not saying the guy on the bike did anything, it’s just that as a lifelong dog owner (who has had a fairly long life all things considered), I know what dogs are and are not capable of. I also know that moving things, like kids on bikes, people running, motorcycles, etc, stimulate some dogs, usually the ones who haven’t been exposed to a lot of different situations, different types of people, etc. You have to know your dog to be a good owner.

Believe me, I’m not excusing the dog, except that the dog is a bit of a dope and the owner has to watch out for him because he sees the world a bit differently, to say the least..

The problem, as “*” pointed out although he misinterpreted it, is that there has been a complete lack of enforcement of licensing, leashing, sanitation rules and other things, all of which contribute to building a culture of responsible dog ownership in a community.

A few hefty tickets here and there coupled with zero tolerance enforcement of licensing and the rest not only send a message to scofflaws, they contribute to the AC budget, allowing them to hire good people and get the facilities and equipment they need.

I find it darkly humorous that politicos always cry poor when it comes to funding and manning their animal services divisions (which, if managed properly, are taxpayer neutral and completely supported by dog owners), but don’t hesitate to legislate owners of particular types into second class status based on specious reasoning and opinion disguised as fact. This does absolutely nothing to control incompetent and criminal owners or prevent bites and attacks and is never supported by accredited experts or the responsible dog community in a jurisdiction.

It’s lose-lose. Some people lose their constitutional rights based on the perceived appearance of their dogs, the scofflaws and criminals, who by definition don’t obey laws, carry on as usual and the community loses an opportunity to get things in order, dogwise.

Ksthleen-where did I mention Vicks’ race in my post? I said ‘out of the ghetto”. If you or anyone else assumes that all residents of a “ghetto” are black…then who is being racist?

btw, there was a Chihuahua that terrorized a neighbourhood, reported in the press, can’t find the article or remember the exact details. It was declared a dangerous dog.

I worked at a vet clinic for a while. We got all kinds of dogs in for both treatment and boarding — Shepherds, Pits, Mastiffs, etc. Of all the dogs that I dealt with, only one ever bit me, and it wasn’t the 140+-pound Malamute that was listed as a ‘caution’ animal. It wasn’t the Pits, or the sweet little Rottweiler brought in to be spayed, or a mutt. It was a fucking Chihuahua. Not only did the little bastard bite me, but when I pulled my hand back, it held on. I got off with nothing more than a scar and a deepening of my dislike of the ratty little things, fortunately.

People treat Chihuahuas and Yorkshire terriers and other small/toy breeds just like they’re toys or accessories, and they’re NOT. They don’t seem to think that small dogs (particularly terriers) need any sort of training, discepline, or work, and as a result you get ill-tempered little monsters with inappropriately-directed ratting skills. Guh.

I said ‘out of the ghetto”

You know exactly what you said because you haven’t got the guts to include the “boy” that preceded your own quote.

…then who is being racist?

Well, you were before, but now you’re too chicken to be. Which is okay I guess.

They don’t seem to think that small dogs (particularly terriers) need any sort of training, discepline, or work, and as a result you get ill-tempered little monsters with inappropriately-directed ratting skills. Guh.

Couldn’t agree more. The only reason no one freaks out over how frequently the toy breeds bite is because, well, they usually don’t do much more than piss the victim off. But a friend of mine who was a vet tech had to get several stitches in her hand one time, and one time only – from a Shih Tzu. My parents, who are the worst I’ve ever had to deal with w.r.t. pit bull-prejudice, have five Shih Tzus and two Lhasas, one of whom tore the hell out of my dad’s upper arm when he accidentally rolled on him while sleeping. I, on the other hand, have never been bitten by any of the APBT’s I’ve dealt with, but my parents refuse to ever visit at my house as long as I have them (not that I’m torn up about it or anything).

As far as breeds you wouldn’t expect to bite anyone, my former landlord’s son got mauled by her chocolate lab. For all I know, maybe the kid was tormenting the dog as kids often do (and the parents apparently expect the poor dogs to endlessly put up with it), but there ya go.

Ksthleen-where did I mention Vicks’ race in my post? I said ‘out of the ghetto”.

clearly you were intending your remark about the ghetto to reference Vick’s race, or you wouldn’t have followed it with “If that’s racist, then fucking sue me.”

Hey Caveat-

The link you posted was 2 years old and I needed to get the heck out of here last night to take my dog to the lake. My apologies for not playing at your site. I’ll try and pop on there over lunch.

And Bubba, I’ll be sure to wait until the sample size of people I’ve known, personally, who are killed by pit bull attacks has risen from one to a number of statistical significance before I make sweeping arguments against pit bulls again.

Would twenty acquantances killed by pit bull attacks be satisfactory for argument purposes? Or would you prefer N=30?

I guess we need to modify the proverb to: fool me once, shame on you; fool me a non-anecdotal, statistically significant number of times, suitable to self-righteous Bubba’s liking, shame on me.

And Bubba, I’ll be sure to wait until the sample size of people I’ve known, personally, who are killed by pit bull attacks

Yes, and a woman broke my heart so all women are bitches. That’s a quality argument you’ve got going there.

You’re right, Bubba, you’re right.

I’ll just let my dog get mutilated another N times by off-lead pit bulls, pull out another N dead puppy carcasses from pit bulls mouth’s, and wait until another N number of people I know are killed by pit bulls before stating the obvious.

Then maybe, just maybe, once the number of tragic experiences I’ve witnessed at the hands of pit bulls (and their irresponsible owners) reaches a significant number worthy of stochastic analysis, I’ll have an argument worthy of convincing someone as obtuse as yourself that dogs that have been bred for bloodsport for generations are more dangerous than working breeds.

I’ll just let my dog get mutilated another N times by off-lead pit bulls, pull out another N dead puppy carcasses from pit bulls mouth’s, and wait until another N number of people I know are killed by pit bulls before stating the obvious.

Funny, that’s the same argument that’s used on Arabs these days. Good thing there are sites like this that make fun of stupid arguments like that.

Seriously, make an argument that isn’t worthless and I’ll have no problems telling you you’re right.

Oh and Caveat:

“Oh, and just to get “*” going again, I don’t believe there is any such thing as an unprovoked attack, barring disease or disorder. It’s just that humans aren’t too good at body language – unlike dogs.”

Are you saying that my friend’s mother, an elderly grandmother, provoked the pit into attacking her by virtue of body language?

The difference between a responsible dog owner and a dog apologist is, the responsible dog owner knows that, not too deep under the surface of his companion lies a predator. The dog apologist will misunderstand pack instinct and mores, will allow his devotion to his animal cloud his judgement, and attempt to project some sort of anthropomorphic morality onto a canine. If the dog apologist owns an attack breed, very bad things happen.

“Oh, and just to get “*” going again, I don’t believe there is any such thing as an unprovoked attack, barring disease or disorder. It’s just that humans aren’t too good at body language – unlike dogs.”

Are you saying that my friend’s mother, an elderly grandmother, provoked the pit into attacking her by virtue of body language?

Now this is an argument that can be refuted by anecdote: humans just doing what they do is not provocation: we both know of situations in which people just going about their business were set upon. There are obviously unprovoked attacks and Caveat’s “belief” is just that. There’s probably a rationale for a dog doing what it does, but it’s not provocation to walk down a street: streets are for people and dogs are a luxury.

Self-righteous:

Excellent, so now you’ve pegged my argument to both sexism AND racism.

Here is a very informal exercise that does not involve personal experience. Caveat will surely dismiss it as he considers it a red-herring and not an ‘ADBA’-sanctioned breed, but here are some google hits for you:

“dog violent attack” 1,880,000

“labrador retriever violent attack” 67,000

“pit bull violent attack” 525,000

OT- but what is the tag for italics?

I need a colonectomy.

Excellent, so now you’ve pegged my argument to both sexism AND racism.

That’s because it’s a shit argument usually used for shit causes. Visit here and spot your fallacy: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Or visit here for your tags: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/default.asp

The Google stuff is more like it, but actual literature might be nice. Look at this: http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html#Thedogsmostlikelytobite

I wonder what the actual problem is with just not having a breed of dog around? They’re all (theoretically) licensed, so it’s a privilege. What would be the problem with reducing the privilege by a breed?

humans just doing what they do is not provocation: we both know of situations in which people just going about their business were set upon.

I really, really, hate to get into the middle of this argument, but I think it’s necessary to advocate a little caution over the term “unprovoked attacks”. I never cease to be amazed at how many people don’t have the common sense to not walk up to, say, a dog in a car and stop a couple feet from the window while staring directly at it, then becoming shocked if the dog growls or barks at them (sometimes even expecting to be able to walk up to a stranger’s car and stick their hand in a partially open window to pet a strange dog). Plus, I already mentioned above how insanely stupid so many parents can be w.r.t. allowing their kids to act like little monsters around dogs.

I think this is what Caveat was referring to when he said “It’s just that humans aren’t too good at body language – unlike dogs.” Dogs without fail give plenty of signals to indicate when they’re going to become violent, they don’t just go from ‘ears back, grinning, low tail-wagging’ to ‘snarling, going for the jugular’ in 1.5 seconds. It really wouldn’t be too difficult for people to spend a few minutes learning how to interpret those signals, not to mention how to avoid unknowingly provoking a dog.

And yes, before anyone starts sputtering in outrage, all the usual truisms apply: fighting breeds have the potential to do a lot more damage than other breeds, thus extra responsibility from their owners is warranted; people have the right to walk down the street expecting to be unmolested by off-leash dogs. I’m not blaming anyone’s elderly grandmother, etc. I’m just saying the responsibility goes both ways. We can’t expect dogs to do all the work of learning what is or is not offensive behavior.

it really wouldn’t be too difficult for people to spend a few minutes learning how to interpret those signals, not to mention how to avoid unknowingly provoking a dog……

So then, i take it you’ve never had the distinct “thrill” of some off-the-leash landshark with a poorly defined sense of it’s own territory come bounding out of nowhere with NO DISCERNIBLE WARNING and send you scrambling up a brick fence/block wall like a cat up a tree because you didn’t stop to sniff all the fence posts to know you were in Fido’s domain then, eh?

people have the right to walk down the street expecting to be unmolested by off-leash dogs.

but isn’t that sending the “wrong signal” … i mean, based on the rest of your argument, shouldn’t our natural state of walking down the street be peppered with a degree of deferential wariness so as not to risk offending the canine overlords whose territory we may be infringing upon with our mere presence?

I know i’m being hyperbolic, but to a degree that does seem to be what you’re suggesting

You’ll notice in the very first post on this thread, I said I’ve been in pit bull rescue for more than a decade, and of course I’ve dealt with dogs of many different breeds besides. I trust you can draw your own conclusions about what kinds of situations I’ve found myself in. The problem in the situations you describe is due to negligent owners. It’s irresponsible as hell to let your dog run all around unattended in any event, especially if they have even the slightest tendency towards aggression. Euthanizing the dogs, banning the breeds, whatever the emotional knee-jerk reaction, isn’t going to fix the fact that some people are too stupid and irresponsible to have pets.

I’m specifically asking for some skepticism regarding the often-used, less-often-deserved phrase “unprovoked attacks”, because I’ve seen enough situations first-hand where the dog gave plenty of advance notice of its intentions, and the person was just too clueless to get them. It’s tragic, but I think it’s pretty obvious that the dogs can’t be expected to figure out how we behave and adjust their reactions accordingly; we humans with our supposedly big brains should be able to pick up the slack. I’m not talking about walking down the street, I’m talking about simple things like not staring directly at dogs you don’t know (or pretty much any mammal, including humans, for that matter), not immediately reaching to pet a strange dog, learning how to tell what certain tail and ear postures indicate, and other stuff that a few episodes of The Dog Whisperer can fill people in on.

I’m specifically asking for some skepticism regarding the often-used, less-often-deserved phrase “unprovoked attacks”, because I’ve seen enough situations first-hand where the dog gave plenty of advance notice of its intentions, and the person was just too clueless to get them.

The examples * and I were talking about though were walking down the street and riding a motorcycle. I agree that people do stupid shit with dogs (like me when I was a kid and I got taught a well-deserved lesson by a border collie) but we literally were talking about unprovoked attacks.

“shouldn’t our natural state of walking down the street”

Hey, shit happens, but these kinds of attacks are very rare. Most people (over 85%) are bitten or attacked (or killed) by dogs they know – on the owner’s property or adjacent to it.

Statistics back this up.

You can’t possibly legislate/prepare for an incident that is so unlikely that it can’t be predicted.

Take DBRFs, for example. Your chances of being killed by a dog are 1: 16,000,000. Compared with other causes of death by misadventure, such as cars, ladders, poison or even being struck by lightning, dogs are incredibly safe. A child is 1,000 times more likely (statistically) to be killed by his own parents than by a dog. A US resident is more likely to win the lottery or be executed by the State than to be killed by a dog.

More people are killed by cows each year than by dogs – straight numbers. That makes cows much more dangerous, as fewer people have direct, daily contact with them, while dogs are always walking around in public, by the millions, in all kinds of environments from urban to rural to remote.

Listen to Emperor, he is spot on. As a dog owner, my responsibility is to ensure that my dog succeeds and that he is protected from harm. By protecting my dog, I’m protecting you. That means he doesn’t annoy the neighbours, he doesn’t make people on the street feel uncomfortable, he doesn’t wander around by himself. He’s not a pain in the ass, in other words, and he’s never a threat to anyone.

Here’s a question for ‘*’. If ‘pit bulls’ (and I’ll include all five breeds to make it easy for you) are such horrid beasts, why is it that so few of them ever bite anybody and so few of them are involved in unpleasant or violent incidents?

If aggression or a propensity to attack were inheritable – in other words, if the hacks in office and the media were correct and the scientists were wrong, wouldn’t we expect more than .00001% of all ‘pit bulls’ to exhibit these traits?

Here’s another question: With a population of roughly 60,000,000 dogs in the US and an average of 15 – 20 DBRFs per year, wouldn’t you say that dogs overall are much safer than humans?

Gee, and I wasn’t going to come back here….

Caveat — how is it that this thread has gone from one about a guy abusing dogs to one about how “pit bulls are just fine and also they don’t exist”?

I mean, really, we could all probably be persuaded to understand and agree that a poorly-socialized dog is a poorly-socialized dog, and that dog owners who (a) don’t put any effort into raising their dogs or (b) put extraordinary effort into turning their dogs into antisocial biting machines are to blame, so why even drag in this “animal rights people want to set your pets loose in the woods” angle?

Why not?

Here’s a question for ‘*’. If ‘pit bulls’ (and I’ll include all five breeds to make it easy for you) are such horrid beasts, why is it that so few of them ever bite anybody and so few of them are involved in unpleasant or violent incidents?

Here’s one answer for you, if pit bulls are so nice and cuddly, why is it that I’ve had the fortunate experiences of watching one kill a puppy, disfigure my gentle dog in an unprovoked attack, oh, and one killed my friend’s mom.

But if you want an answer that would garner Righteous B’s approval, I followed a link through the link he sent earlier, kindly check out:

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

Note that the number of attacks on children, adults, attacks resulting in deaths, and attacks resulting in maimings seem to spike shortly after the list makes it to the ‘P’ section.

Here’s a question for you, Caveat, if so few people are exposed to unpleasant or violent incidents involving pit bulls, than why are so many people exposed to unpleasant or violent incidents involving pit bulls?

The answer lies in people who are involved in activities that Michael Vick are allegedly involved with, as well as idiots who buy family pets from organizations Michael Vick were allegedly involved with.

As pits have been bred to be dog-hostile, I would love to see some statistics of dog-on-dog attacks instigated by this breed. I’ll be sure to share if I find any.

And a note to Emperor-

With all respect and admiration to what you do (of which I have a tremendous amount) I must take exception to:

I’m specifically asking for some skepticism regarding the often-used, less-often-deserved phrase “unprovoked attacks”, because I’ve seen enough situations first-hand where the dog gave plenty of advance notice of its intentions, and the person was just too clueless to get them.

Not everyone has the National Geographic channel. Many people haven’t had the privledge of having a companion as noble as a dog.

I live in a neighborhood filled with 1st and 2nd generation immigrants from areas of the world where dog ownership is not common (folks from the far east as well as predominantly Arab countries.) Nothing makes me sadder than to pass a young family screaming and running away in terror as my retrievers and I approach them. It happens with considerable frequency, and is pathetic. Each time its occurred I’ve tried to communicate to them the proper way to approach a dog (i.e. for starters, don’t completely loose your $hit) with varying results.

Basically what I’m trying to say is, until dogs learn English, or at the very least Esperanto or American sign language, we shouldn’t question the human victim’s behavior shortly before they were accosted. That is counterproductive at best. If people are unfamiliar with dogs, be it because of cultural traditions, allergies, or whatever; what you and I take for granted as common-sense, may not necessarily be that common. Education of dog handling has to begin with the dog owners.

“Nothing makes me sadder than to pass a young family screaming and running away in terror as my retrievers and I approach them”

Now you know how ‘pit bull’ owners feel.

The video was eye opening.

I have been searching high and low for dry cough treatments and
I found your site. Initially I was having a tough time viewing your blog owing to my internet browser settings.
All I can say is that you have what I’m seeking and I’m astounded with your content.

I will be reading more. I will be looking forward to your next article!