Quick Football Thread

Below the fold…

Does anyone else think there has been an overall decline in the quality of quarterbacks over the past ten years? Off the top of my head, I can think of only four quarterbacks playing now who are locks for the Hall of Fame: Peyton, Brady, Favre and, yes, Bledsoe. Bledsoe and Favre are pretty close to the end of the line, though, so I’m not sure how much they really count if you’re talking about Great Modern Quarterbacks.

Contrast that with the class of quarterbacks who were playing in 1996. You had Bledsoe and Favre, plus Steve Young, Elway, Moon, Aikman, Marino, and Jim Kelly (not to mention Testaverde and a young Steve McNair). Other than Brady and Peyton, the only guy who even comes close to approaching that level today is McNabb. Eli, Rex Grossman and Carson have the potential, but they haven’t yet shown the consistency of a superstar QB.*


*Memo to Falcons fans: I love watching Michael Vick, but he’s not that great a passer.


Comments: 82


hmmm. Anyone wanna look at the data on how the teams’ salaries are divvied up these days vs. 1996? Is a higher proportion spent on other positions these days? That might be part of the answer.

It also seems that a lot of receivers in the last few years have been forced into retirement because of multiple concussions.


Did anyone happen to see Will’s column in today’s Sunday paper? He seems to think that us evil liberals, being entitlement whores, think the Yankees are entitled to World Series appearances, managing to forget the whole ‘class warfare’ thing. It’s a hoot, really.


I think dAVE’s dead right. With today’ more sophisticated analysis tools and the resulting more sophisticated schemes, a single player, even a great quarterback can have less impact. Most especially the universal understanding that a great offensive line can make both quarterbacks and running backs better. Big receivers, fast tight ends and dual-purpose running backs do the same. I think it really changed the year (was it 2000?) that the Ravens won the superbowl without a viable quarterback. I think it’s similar to the dynamic that has caused the decline of the starting pitcher in baseball. Nobody even won sixteen this year, did they?



ohhh, fer crissakes!

Whatever happened to frickin’ consistancy from conservatives?

The Yankees? The team with the highest salary in MLB? Wouldn’t liberals be lobbying for more wild card slots, or something? Or, giving worse teams automatic playoff spots.

I guess the NFL is the sport for us liberals. Salary caps, revenue sharing, giving teams with bad records higher draft picks, playing with schedules to avoid too many blowouts, free abortions for cheerleaders.


mikey – thanks!

Also, have defensive backs and linemen been getting better? They seem to be both bigger and faster now. They used to be either big or fast, now they’re both. It seems that it’s gettting awfully hard to protect a quarterback for a full four quarters. It seems to me that you can’t spend the money on a QB until you have an offensive line that can keep him from getting beat up or discombobulated because he’s being chased around the backfield every other play. As a result offensive linemen may be getting paid better now, too, leaving less $ to go to a QB. (I haven’t actually looked at the numbers, so this may not hold up to analysis.)


I don’t see Bledsoe making the Hall of Fame; he’s just been too inconsistent over his career. But as to there being fewer great QB’s, I think it’s just a random thing, like how in the past five or so years there haven’t been any great centers in the NBA besides Shaq. But ten years ago, you had (along with Shaq) Olajuwon, Ewing, and Robinson, all sure fire Hall of Famers. I suspect the same thing will happen with QB’s.


Bledsoe? Nah gah happen, unless (Jeebus forbid) the Cowboys win the Super Bowl. Vinny Testaverde has nice career numbers, too, but no one thinks he’s headed for Canton.


Reading the phrases “Drew Bledsoe” and “Hall of Fame” in the same sentence made my ears bleed.


Slightly OT, Brad, did you catch “Lost” this week? There was an awesome gag toward the end involving the ’04 Red Sox. It even amused me, and I don’t give a rat’s patootie about sportz.


Sorry Mikey, but the AL had seven guys with 17 or more wins, this year, with Wang and Johan Santana having 19 each. Nobody in the NL had more than 16, though.


dAVE…team sports have to constantly adjust the rules to prevent games from turning into defensive, sluggish bores; the reason is because athletes are constantly getting bigger, faster, quicker, more agile, etc, and it becomes increasingly difficult to get a ball past them (baseball is the exception–the defense has the ball, so if the rules and playing conditions aren’t constantly adjusted in favor of the defense, scoring continues to increase. the most recent develop is the smaller, cozy ballparks with very little of the pitcher’s best friend, foul ball territory). Football underwent a series of changes over the last generation designed to benefit the passing offense–the “no chuck” rule, the blocking liberalization rule allowing interior linemen to use their hands, the rule letting quarterbacks throw the ball away outside of the tackle box, various rules to protect defensive players from getting too rough…I’m sure I’m missing some. If they don’t keep adjusting the rules, QB’s look increasingly bad. Incidentally, McNabb is undoubtedly going to the Hall, and you forgot Michael Vick–the cure for today’s marauding, risk taking linebackers and safeties is a quarterback they can’t catch.


If the Hall of Fame Drew Bledsoe is a “lock” for is the Puking All Over Yourself At The Slightest Whiff Of Pressure Hall of Fame, then sure, he’s got my vote.

Are you fucking kidding me? Bledsoe sucks and has for about 9 years. He underachieved horribly after getting to the Super Bowl in 1996, being largely ineffective save for one quarter in relief of Tom Brady in that AFC title game against Pittsburgh. He went to Buffalo and was good for 8 games, followed by two and a half absolutely shitty years, capped with a complete collapse in the 2004 season finale that would have put the Bills in the playoffs. And we’re seeing a repeat of it in Dallas, today’s win over the mighty Texans notwithstanding.

The day Drew Bledsoe gets in the Hall of Fame is the day they burn Canton to the ground.


For me, Bledsoe’s sort of like Eddie Murray. Yeah, he’s got great statistics, but what has he really done? I mean, I loved the guy when he was playing for the Pats, and was actually at the game when Bledsoe was injured and Brady came in for the first time (I was doing security so I could go to the Keys in January on the cheap). But he didn’t win the big game, and he wasn’t as dominating as Marino.

As for QBs, there are a lot of young guys out there right now. You’ve got a lot of guys who have very little experience passing, whereas in the mid-90’s, you had all those great guys and then a lot of crap as well (ah Ryan Leaf, we miss you so). The real question will be how the Roethlisburger, Palmer, Grossman, McNabb types hold up over time, and right now, I’d say that McNabb is probably the closest to get to that point (and the only one of the infamous QB class of the ’98 First Round to get in, considering that Culpepper’s dropped off, and Akili Smith, Tim Couch, and Cade McNown had nothing).


And mikey, in your NFL/liberal analysis, you forgot that in 3 months, the only former NFL player in major (Governor/House/Senate) office will likely be a Democrat (Heath Shuler). Lynn Swann’s chances to become Governor of Pennsylvania are more dire than the success of a non-animated sitcom on Fox.


I meant dAVE in my previous post. I apologize, though now use this post to note that with the Raiders being the only remaining winless team, I don’t see them winning this season.


OK, I’ll admit that Bledsoe is a borderline case.

That said, all he’ll need is a couple more years as a starting QB to pass 50,000 career passing yards. If he makes it, I think it will be very very hard for HOF voters to overlook him.


Also, as to QBs-

What’s been so strange about the decline of consistent QBs has been the rise of incredible receivers. I can’t remember a time when the league saw guys as talented as TO, Marvin Harrison, Steve Smith, Chad Johnson, etc. all at the same time and in the prime of their careers.


Before this year, I would have nominated Joey “blue skies” Harrington for the HOF, ’cause it would have meant he could no longer play for my Lions.
McNabb will probably make it, and I think Vick has a chance, but he has to find the balance. He’s a threat when he wheels but if ya can’t throw consistently the defenses will eventually figure it out.
And another by-product of defenses getting bigger and faster is the fact that a starting QB probably won’t start all sixteen, he’ll get injured before that. So the team has to lay out more dough to the number two, even the number three. What Favre has done is amazing, endurance-wise. But I don’t have the man-crush on him Madden does. I save that now for Roy Williams (’cause he’s all we’ve got).


I think if he has a few more good years (and that seems likely) McNabb will make the HoF. Same with Carson Palmer. He is definately HoF calliber if he keeps up what he did last year. I’m not as convinced about Bledsoe.

I think QB’s are always better in the rearview. Its easy to dismiss the players today who are still building thier career stats. But in 10 years, you’ll probably be lamenting that there aren’t any great QBs like McNabb or Hasselbeck* or the Mannings anymore. 🙂

*I’m biased here.


Manning’s a lock, if, you know, you like quarterbacks that are 6′ 5″, 230…laser rocket arm…

I know it’s stolen but I find it unusually funny.


Oh, and re:Vick I think he is the biggest problem the Falcons have (being from ATL, I can say that). He’s exciting and just good enough that the fans would revolt if you tried to bench him (how much $ do the Falcons make on Vick jerseys?), but he doesn’t have the kind of greatness to lead a team from behind or the kind of passing ability to push defenses back from the line. So he’s just good enough to ensure that the Falcons are always just a good team (which is actually much better than the pre-Vick Falcons), and not a great team.


Drew Bledsoe much he needed a transfusion.


Face it, Brad, what you really mean is “Bring back Joe Montana! I don’t care how, just do it.”

Steve Young was a pale imitation, rushing aside.


Oh, boy, I remember the olden days. One season, we SF 49er fans were SO UPSET because all of our quarterbacks were getting hurt.

Imagine that concept. So much QB depth that we had to worry about several of ’em. First Joe Montana gets hurt, so that puts Steve Young in (nobody liked that, because you know, “happy feet”). Then Steve Young gets hurt, so OMG, they had to go to Steve Bono. Then Bono gets hurt, and if memory serves, little Billy Musgrave got put in, and wackiness ensued.

QBs used to ripen on the bench like tomatoes. You brought them along. Eventually they got to hold the clipboard. You’d never draft a guy out of college and start him that next season.

It’s getting your money’s worth, I assume. You buy him, use him up, squeeze him dry, probably breaking 50% of them into little bitty pieces in the process. Then you buy a new one.

It could be that I’m projecting my own feelings concerning my job history, though I have never been a QB. But other than the rough ‘n’ tumble and the big contract and having it be televised, it’s kinda like my own career history. Power to the people. Onward and upward.


The fact is, M-E-T-S


(P.S. I’d love to add something to the futeball discussion, but it doesn’t look like teh Redskins are going to be anything to brag on. And I don’t think Yale is gonna take it all, either.)


Interesting thread.

I would note that several of the big name QBs were ghosts of their former selves in 1996 (much like Favre is today).

I would be interested in comparing the season stats of the top 10 QBs in 1996 with the top 10 from last year — has production at the position fallen off, or is it just that there aren’t as many QBs with big names?

I suspect that the Hasselbecks, Delhommes, Bulgers, and Brees of today may match up better statistically against some of the towering QBs of the 90s than we think.

Anyone know of good stats site that could make a comparison easy?


I’d pick the guy who before this week was Number 1 in QB rankings.

Y’know, the guy with 4 division titles and 1 conference championship?

I’ll let ya figure it out.


Where’ve Seb and Gavin and Retardo been hanging out lately?

Not that we don’t loves us some Brad and Travis, but still….


The main problem with Vick ever compiling a HOF-type career is that he’s going to get him self killed running around like Speedy Gonzalez out there. I don’t think he should stay in the pocket since he’s so dangerous outside of it … I just think we all have to come to grips with the fact he’s not going to have a long career.


I had an opportunity to see the 60 Minutes piece on David Kuo, and here’s some comments.

Kuo is a trojan horse of the left. He proved that by..

a) falsely claiming that Christians didn’t care about the poor, when in fact, a lot of Christian groups were tied to anti-poverty efforts.

b) trying to claim that Bush’s White House mocked “important Christian leaders”, but presenting no proof, and only mentioning Dobson, Falwell, and Robertson. But the fact is that there are other important Christian leaders, like the President of the Southern Baptist Convention and the Pope, and they weren’t mocked by Bush supporters.

His claim is either an attempt to fool the Religious Right, or an ignorant display of ignoring of millions of Christians.

c) saying that Christians should withdraw from politics. Basically he says there’s a problem, and advocates surrendering. If such a problem exists, then it should be combated with more participation in politics, not less.

The fact is that problems of the Bush presidency are not to be solved by moving left, but they will be solved by moving towards common sense Conservative ideas, not the Democrat-lite ideas that kept the Republicans in the minority for decades after the New Deal.

David Kuo is a shameless tool for the far left.


The fact is the shrub presidency is following Ronald Raygun with regard to teh poor (see Katrina, e.g.):

And the Dead Kennedys said it it all!

Smiling Mortician

problems of the Bush presidency . . . will be solved by moving towards common sense

Oh. My. God. I have just marked it on my calendar: October 15, the day Gare Bear let slip something that actually abuts the boundary of the realm of the reasonable.

Did he jump ship and write his own post this time or are the talking points really getting this close to facing some sort of reality?

Maybe he thought nobody’d notice if he slipped it into a football thread.


And here’s another thing, Gary:




Give Eli time, he may not be his brother, but no one playing at Giants stadium will be. He’s got a solid better-than-Simms career ahead of him, which any Giant fan will give his left nut for.

I think Sean has a point about the comparison:

1996 top ten QBs
Player Rating
Steve Young 97.2
Brett Favre 95.8
Brad Johnson 89.4
John Elway 89.2
Vinny Testaverde 88.7
Dan Marino 87.8
Mark Brunell 84.0
Drew Bledsoe 83.7
Jeff Hostetler 83.2
Ty Detmer 80.8

2005 Top 10
1 Peyton Manning 104.1
2 Carson Palmer 101.1
3 Ben Roethlisberger 98.6
4 Matt Hasselbeck 98.2
5 Marc Bulger 94.4
6 Tom Brady 92.3
7 Jake Plummer 90.2
8 Trent Green 90.1
9 Byron Leftwich89.3
10 Drew Brees 89.2


Gary, I saw the 60 Minutes piece too, and Kuo did not say the Christians don’t care about the poor. He said the Republican politicians don’t care about the poor. He is right, as should be obvious to anyone who has been paying attention.

And aren’t you kind of off-topic for this thread? It’s a clearly labeled sports thread.

I personally don’t care about any sort of team sports, except baseball. And with the Mariners and the Cubs out of the running, I can’t work up any enthusiasm for baseball. So I’m gonna go to bed and nurse my migraine. Good night, sports fans! And good night, shameless far right troll tool.


David Kuo is a shameless tool for the far left.

Well, hello, spambot! Another day, another shift, yes?

I have to go back to work tomorrow, but I guess you are required to work 7 days a week. Must suck.


Smiling Mortician, if Gary was riding along the boundary of the realm of reason, I’m quite certain he was an accidental tourist.


I couldn’t resist. Good night, sweet Gary. May flights of wingnuts wing you to your rest.


Can someone explain football for me? I try to watch it and be cool but everyone always has to explain everything to me while it’s happening and it all happens to fast for me to remember.


In Vino Veritas:

You’re right about the passing numbers generally increasing. That’s certainly a reflection of the NFL’s attempts to open up the passing game to generate more offense on the field.

Thing is, though, I find there’s more instability at the QB position than at any time I can remember. Remember, it was only two years ago that Daunte Culpepper threw for a ridiculous 4717 yards with 39 TD passes; this year, he lost his job to Joey Harrington. Similarly, who would expect David Carr and Rex Grossman to be posting the kinds of passing numbers they’re posting this year?


annie- it took me a looooong time to learn what the hell is going on. It just takes time- you eventually get it through osmosis.


I like making sandwiches and snacks. 🙂 I bet watching the game is more exciting for you though, since you know all this stuff.


Brad, I think the QBs playing now are much better than what the league had five years ago, when Kerry Collins was considered a top passer. In 96, you still had the class of ’83 playing, and that group was an aberration. Grossman and Palmer were drafted three years ago, Eli only two years ago; the improvement they’ve shown in the time they’ve played makes one optimistic about their future. At the same time, Peyton may end up being better than Marino. I think we’re in the beginning years of a golden era for QBs.


At the same time, Peyton may end up being better than Marino.

He really does have to win a championship, though. I know it’s a somewhat phony barometer for QB greatness, but last year the Colts should have won the whole damn thing. I know they’re 5-0 this year, but I don’t think that’ll last down the stretch. They nearly lost to both the Jets and the Titans, which is something that teams of their caliber just shouldn’t do.


1996 passing yardage

Brunell 4367
Testaverde 4177
Bledsoe 4086
Favre 3899
Blake 3624
Frerotte 3453
Elway 3328
Hebert 3152
Aikman 3126
Mitchell 2917

Brady 4110
Green 4014
Favre 3881
Palmer 3836
Collins 3759
E.Manning 3762
P. Manning 3747
Bledsoe 3639
Brees 3576
Hasselbeck 3459

I don’t know if that’s interesting, but I went to the trouble to look it all up, so I’m going to post it. LOL

Anyhow, the top passers in ’96 racked up more yardage than last year’s leaders; after that, it falls off. Coupled with the ratings, you’d say QB’s are expected to be more consistent now, and that kind of dovetails with what we’ve been saying about the successful teams–you plug in a workmanlike quarterback with great skill players around him.


For fouck’s sake don’t ever mention Tom Brady and the word “great” ever again. Wanna know who has been the New England Patriots MVP for the last 6 years?

Right Here. With out the MV you would keep thinking youre stuck with a coach that still couldn’t cut it in Cleveland .


Is Ross Verba any good? He dates Janelle from Big Brother, she’s my fave all-star. GO JANELLE!!!


I don’t think the Colts do it this year either…who’s beating Denver? Can’t wait for that Bears-Broncos Super Bowl; first time a punter gets MVP.


Vino: I’m hoping for a Bears-Broncos superbowl as well! (but only because my Redskins-Broncos preseason prediction seems laughable right now.) I predict Denver wins 4 to 3 – two safeties against one field goal. 🙂


Speaking of Denver, how about Jake Plummer? Hall of Fame material for sure. Uh, well . . you know . . . Hall of Something.


Just to provide an unneeded defense of Yankee fans, just remember the greeting Cheney got at the Stadium two years ago. We may be spoiled, but we still know what’s right.


Hemlock, I had Miami-Tampa. I really suck at predictions, when sober. Hopefully, the nightly drunken calls for a Democratic landslide fare better.


Oh, and this by Gary might be the funniest thing I’ve ever read here.
“b) trying to claim that Bush’s White House mocked “important Christian leadersâ€?, but presenting no proof, and only mentioning Dobson, Falwell, and Robertson. But the fact is that there are other important Christian leaders, like the President of the Southern Baptist Convention and the Pope, and they weren’t mocked by Bush supporters.”
I’ll give Gary some small credit, tho.
How the hell do you snark at that?
It’s like Mr. Show’s flag made out of shit, designed to prevent performance artists from taking a crap on the flag.


Look at all the young guys with potential just emerging in the league. Brees, Rivers, Manning the younger, Rothlisberger and Palmer. Rivers might be the next Marino. Brees looks like Montana. Rothlisberger looks like a certain Viking QB whose throat was once cut and who took the Raiders a long way. If Palmer stays healthy, who know? There is always a change of the guard.


It’s like Mr. Show’s flag made out of shit, designed to prevent performance artists from taking a crap on the flag.

“Put your poo box away.”

Let’s go Mets! Cardinal fans, you will be seeing Carlos Beltran in your nightmares for years to come.


Yankee fitba is a big wank. Brief seconds of running squeezed in between lots of fucking around and ads.

Rugby union, now there’s a real sport. Rugby league is also pretty good. Aussie rules rocks. Soccer ain’t bad, at least they don’t stop the game every three seconds and fuck around for two minutes trying to work out the next play.


Aww, jeez. I just realized in the very first comment, I meant to say QBs retired with concussions, not receivers. I hadn’t been drinking yet , though. That’s my excuse.

Good points, everybody, especially the one about how they’ve been changing the rules to make it harder for the defense.

Anyway, as a Raiders fan (born in Oakland, what can I do?), I’ve got a couple of slogans ..(Here’s hoping the strikeout tag works)

Commitment to excellence few procedural penalties.


Just win score baby!

sigh…. Hey, we held Denver down to 13 points….

Like my friend from Michigan, who is a Lions fan but adopted KC as a team to root for who has a chance most years, I’ve got to pick a secondary team to root for. I’m thinking Philly, ’cause I like McNabb, and totally dig Ben Franklin.


oh, shit! Strikeout doesn’t work. Oh, and I fucked up anyway, even if it had’ve. Is had’ve a word?

Anyway, here’s what I meant

Commitment to fewer procedural penalties.


Just score, Baby!

sigh. I’d better get to sleep.


I can’t remember a time when the league saw guys as talented as TO, Marvin Harrison, Steve Smith, Chad Johnson, etc. all at the same time and in the prime of their careers.

Taking a couple random years that I recall as being good wideout years:

1989 (top 5 in league, in order of receptions, yards, TDs):

Sterling Sharpe: 90/1423/12
Andre Reed: 88/1312/9
Art Monk: 86/1186/8
Mark Carrier: 86/1422/9
Jerry Rice: 82/1483/17

Also: Gary Clark, Cris Carter, John Taylor, Webster Slaughter, Mark Clayton, Mark Duper, Anthony Miller, Steve Largent, Henry Ellard, Anthony Carter, Al Toon, Mike Quick, Michael Irvin, Irving Fryar


Herman Moore: 123/1686/14
Jerry Rice: 122/1848/15
Cris Carter: 122/1371/17
Isaac Bruce: 119/1781/13
Michael Irvin: 111/1603/10

Also: Carl Pickens, Tim Brown, Anthony Miller, Yancy Thigpen, Robert Brooks, Andre Reed, Irving Fryar, Gary Clark, Brian Blades, Joey Galloway, Henry Ellard, Jake Reed, John Taylor


Larry Fitzgerald: 103/1409/10
Steve Smith: 103/1563/12
Anquan Boldin: 102/1402/7
Torry Holt: 102/1331/9
Chad Johnson: 97/1432/9

Doesn’t seem to me that the 2005 crop is particularly outstanding relative to the guys in ’89 and ’95. And again, that was just two random years from my memory …


As for HOF quarterbacks playing now:

Favre: Lock
Peyton Manning: Near lock, needs at least one Super Bowl ring to enter “Greatest Ever?” debate
Brady: Near lock, needs at least one more ring and/or passing title to enter “Greatest Ever?” debate
McNabb: Needs 3-4 more great seasons and/or ring to qualify
Vick: Probably not based on his development, BUT … Super Bowl ring(s) change everything and could retire tomorrow as arguably the greatest running QB of all time
McNair: Big maybe, depending on how he fares with Ravens over this season and beyond
Bulger: If he wins something and has 4-5 more great seasons
Roethlisberger: Who knows? Too young
Eli Manning: Who knows? Too young
Palmer: Who knows? Too young
Brees: Almost assuredly not, but still fairly young
Bledsoe: Nice career numbers, but totally eclipsed by Brady in subjective analysis and his HOF-worthy years are far in the past
Warner: Has reached end of the line, probably not
Hasselback: Too old for even a ring to do it – two rings and some awesome seasons could do the trick, though
Trent Green: Nah
Rivers/Alex Smith/Vince Young/Leinart: Impossible to know, odds say “No”
Grossman: If Chicago becomes a dynasty, who knows?
Everybody else: No no no no no
Anybody who plays or has ever played QB for the Raiders: BWAHAHAHAHA!!!1!


I forgot Leftwich, who is young and on a good team. He’d have to get a lot more awesome for several years to enter the debate, though.


I honestly think this might be the year for my Jags, assuming the only major road game they play is in Indy I just can’t see another AFC squad taking them out, Leftwich seems to improve with each game and despite the loss of Peterson in the middle they have the second best defense in football (after the Bears). Honestly I just don’t see anyone beating them at hiome and they’re the one team which consistently hangs with Indy (well in the regular season, in the Postseason anyone with a pulse hangs with Colts).

Speaking of the Colts and Captain Choke, has their ever been a big name QB (besides possibly Marino) who choked as consistenly as Manning does I’ve watched him since college (ask Peyton about the Florida Gators) and I’ve never seen him win a single “big game.” Manning’s falures aren’t team based either (hell google his stats in college vs. everyone but Florida, then vs. Florida, or Playoffs vs. Regular season) he just consistently plays his worse when hiws team hneeds his best, its like he’s the Arod of Football, only more so.


Gary- I’m watching the David Kuo clip. I can’t believe you think this guy- a right-wing evangelical who was #2 in Bush’s Faith-Based Initiatives Office- is a tool of the far left. Actually, I don’t believe you really think that. You’re just writing what comes out of Karl Rove’s latest blast fax because you don’t want to be deported. I understand that. But still, this is pretty damn shameless.


annieangel said,

Is Ross Verba any good? He dates Janelle from Big Brother, she’s my fave all-star. GO JANELLE!!!

Bad news, annie. Ross Verba blows. He sat out all of last year over a contract dispute with Cleveland; he’s now with Detroit, but has missed almost the entire season with injuries. And the Cleveland people seemed really happy he was gone.


Dodger, he’s damn ugly too! And I heard something about rape. I have no idea what she sees in him.


I’m gonna stick up for Dan Marino here. The man had ZERO running game in his toolkit for the better part of his career. To compare him with Peyton Place (who only had lil’ ol’ Edgerrin James to lean on his whole frigging career) is to do a real HOF QB great disrespect. Then again, to put Peyton Place and HOF in the same sentence is disrespectful too. I apologize, and promise never to do it again without adding the qualifier NEVER somewhere between those words.


While I’m from St. Augustine, 30 minutes south of Jax, and have been a fan since the team’s creation, I don’t think Leftwich has what it takes to win the big one, much less make the HoF. He has a nice arm, but man, learn how to understand when the pocket is collapsing and get the fuck outta there. His plodding manner and his obvious wind-up delivery will lead to many sacks and batted balls in the postseason, methinks. But I think they will cruise through the rest of the season pretty well.

Maybe I’m just still grumpy because the Gators lost this weekend, though.

Oh, and being a Gator, can I please get in a crack at Peyton Manning here? We’re trained to hate ‘Vols from an early age, and it is with an immense amount of schadenfrude that I watch him collapse postseason after postseason. He never beat the Gators and he’ll never win a Super Bowl.


Saying Leftwich has a “nice” arm is like–I had to think about this one–saying Dave Kingman had a “nice” swing. Leftwich’s arm is a sledgehammer, and if he doesn’t learn some touch, he’ll never be highly successful.


i only have one thing to say to all football talk:


5-1. can’t argue with that. WHOOO!!!! 🙂


Demog: Even if Brady wins 3 or 4 more rings, he doesn’t belong in a “Greatest Ever?” debate (except maybe as the celbrity judge). I think the fact that he has played well in the big games obscures the fact that he’s an otherwise mediocre QB. Note how poorly he’s been doing this year without his two best recievers.


OK, maybe I should’ve chosen my words more carefully. But he can deliver the ball quite accurately if he’s not too hurried or it’s not batted down. I agree, though, that he will never be highly successful.


… he just consistently plays his worse when hiws team hneeds his best, its like he’s the Arod of Football, only more so. …

If A-Rod was in every other fucking commercial on TV and didn’t have the following postseason lines:

1997 ALDS: 5-16, .312/.312/.562
2000 ALDS: 4-13, .308/.308/.308
2000 ALCS: 9-22, 2 HR, 5 RBI, .409/.480/.773
2004 ALDS: 8-19, .421/.476/.737
2004 ALCS: 8-31, 2 HR, 8 R, 5 RBI, .258/.378/.516

And A-Rod’s career line in league championship series:

14 games … 17-54 … 12 R … 4 2B … 4 3B … 10 RBIs … .315/.413/.611

Shit, he even got on base at a .381 clip during last year’s ALDS loss in five games to the Angels. So really, his only objectively awful playoff series in nine tries is this last one, the loss to Detroit.

In other words, “Peyton’s no A-Rod” should actually read, “A-Rod’s no Peyton”.


Every once in a while there’s a player who I always hear great things about, but for some reason, every time I see them, they’re having an atypically bad game.

It happened with Emmit Smith all the time. I’d turn on a game I’d hear the announcers talking about how “Emmit Smith just isn’t himself today… Emmit just isn’t the Emmit we’ve seen…” And, since I’d never see him playing well, I’d think “Who IS the Emmit that they’ve seen? I’ve only seen this guy, getting stuffed over and over again.”

Same thing happened a lot with Favre. He’s supposed to be this great QB, and every game I’d see, he’d be playing with a broken hand and throwing interceptions or fumbling snaps and having to fall on ’em. And I’d think, “what the fuck, Madden? What the fuck are you talking about? This guy?” Then, I saw him play healthy, and yeah, Favre is a great QB, or was, rather. And, dammit, he’s got guts.

Which brings me to Peyton Manning. For a long time, the only games I’d see him in, he’d be fucking up, bigtime. They’d get behind, and then he’d throw something like 4 or 5 interceptions in a game, desperately trying to make something happen. And, again, the announcers would be talking him up, saying how this is so atypical for him. And I’d think, “well, this is all see of this guy, fuckin’ choking and doing stupid shit like throwing into triple coverage.”

But, then, eventurally, I got to see him play really well, too. He’s a good QB, but like you guys are saying, he doesn’t seem to be able to stand the pressure of the playoffs.


I wouldn’t bet my house on it, but I also wouldn’t be hugely surprised if Jake Delhomme ends up in the Hall.

Full disclosure: I’m a huge Panthers fan.

Arguments for: One trip to the Super Bowl already, an impressive string of 4th-quarter comebacks for a guy who has been a starter for only three seasons, some of the league’s best receivers to throw to and a lot of wins despite lacking much of a running game. Makes few mistakes.

Arguments against: He started playing regularly relatively late in his career, and the Panthers arguably need a longer, stronger postseason record, fairly quickly, to close the deal for him.


HemlockEcho – I disagree. Brady led the NFL in TD passes in 2002 and in passing yards in 2005. He’s been to three Pro Bowls and is not yet 30. He’s got 8 TD passes to 3 INTs this year for a 4-1 team. He’s improved each year and his last two seasons he posted 90+ passer ratings. He should now be coming into his prime.

He’s definitely more than a “mediocre” QB.

Yes, he needs some more league-leading finishes in various stats during the regular season. If he never wins another ring and winds up his career at the pace he’s going at, he may just be regarded as a Troy Aikman who was a bit better in pressure-packed games. That’s still HOF, though.

But if he wins a passing title, a regular season MVP or otherwise piles up favorable career stats … plus adds another ring to his collection … then you’ve got to include him the “Best Ever?” debate.

And what if he does all that and becomes the first QB to win five rings? He could, you know.


Lex, I think there’s almost no way Delhomme gets into the Hall unless he plays another 10 years (he’s 31, I think, so … umm …) and/or wins a couple rings.

Look at it this way. Here a couple of other guys who started late but still made the HOF at QB:

Warren Moon … Delhomme trails him by 212 TD passes and 37,187 yards.

Steve Young … Delhomme trails him by 153 TD passes and 20,986 yards.

Do you really think Jake’s going to get even remotely close to those guys’ numbers?


Rex Grossman still has lots to prove.

Roethlisberger had the inside track until he wiped out on his bike and then blew out his appendix. Now maybe he knows he isn’t invincible and will mature into one of the greats.

Brees has always had the talent, even in SD he was good. Still has to take one more step forward to be considered great.

Plummer lost a lot of respect because he played for Arizona, but he’s one of those guys. Look at it this way, he’s better than Brian Griese, and Griese was considered a good QB while he was in Denver.

He didn’t look it yesterday but Mark Brunell has been a good QB for a long time.

Obviously Peyton Manning goes in the Hall, ring or no ring. The Colts took a step back losing James and Rhodes (and Rhodes wasn’t exactly Walter Payton). Peyton’s problem is his defense not keeping the other team’s points off the board in the playoffs.

Steve McNair could be Warren Moon. He gives me that impression of a guy who’s going to be around a long time. Heck, he already has been.

Think of it this way. Which QBs hands do you want on the ball in the final 2 minutes? That’s your HOF QB. That’s where you start talking about Montana and Elway and Young and Favre. J.P. Losman? Marc Bulger? Even Matt Hasselback? Not so much.


One other point on the QB’s–it’s partially a function of the transitional period of competitiveness. In the 90’s, there were three dominant teams, Dallas, SF and Denver; all those QB’s wound up in the Hall. Starting with St. Louis’s arrival out of nowhere, we’ve had a revolving cast of champions, with Baltimore, Tampa, the Patriots and Pittsburgh. With different teams winning the SB every year, the public was not keying on a single QB. It’s not so much that we haven’t had outstanding quarterbacks; they just aren’t associated with winners, except Brady. Who will undoubtedly go to the Hall; you can’t win three SB’s and not go to the Hall. As is the case with other skill positions, non-champions go to the Hall if they have spectacular numbers. Peyton will go.


HemlockEcho said,

October 16, 2006 at 19:16

Demog: Even if Brady wins 3 or 4 more rings, he doesn’t belong in a “Greatest Ever?� debate (except maybe as the celbrity judge). I think the fact that he has played well in the big games obscures the fact that he’s an otherwise mediocre QB. Note how poorly he’s been doing this year without his two best recievers.

Holyjeebus. I didn’t think people like this still existed. Check out Brady’s 2001 team — their running back was Antwonie Smith and Troy Brown was, by far, their top receiver.

Actually, better yet, check out coldhardfootballfacts.com — yes, they’re New England guys, but they also show their work. And their work, right now, shows Brady as one of the best ever. I can’t believe this is even a debate. He’s never, ever had a set of receivers like Manning (who is great, without a doubt) — and he still puts up similar numbers (and has the rings).

And what does this even mean I think the fact that he has played well in the big games obscures the fact that he’s an otherwise mediocre QB? When the Pats won in 2004, they played what might have been the toughest schedule ever and all they had were big games, and they went 14-2.


It’s a team sport; success is defined by victories. It’s not a goddamn track meet; players aren’t deemed “great” because they run the fastest or leap the highest. They’re “great” if they do more to put up or prevent points than do the guys on the other side of the line.


I’m not a NE guy (very much the opposite, in fact), but clearly Brady belongs in the HoF, and Peyton too. Brady’s case is pretty clear-cut, and as for Peyton…well, would you deny Barry Sanders? Peyton’s team has had much more success than Barry’s ever did. As far as talent around him, who is overrated, Joe Montana or Jerry Rice? Don’t punish them for having great players around them, even if they don’t win the Big One.

I would say that while winning the SB doesn’t automatically put you in the Hall, failing to win one doesn’t keep you out either.


I think Brad should post a few days before a good game is coming on, and then I think he should make a post while it’s on so people like me who don’t understand the game can ask questions in an environment where no one will laugh or tell us to “shut up the game is on.”


DA: Do I really think Delhomme will make the hall? No. I’m just arguing that he has started strong in his relatively brief career as a starter, putting up strong numbers and leading the kind of fourth-quarter comebacks that make people sit up and take notice. But, yes, he would have to continue doing that consistently for quite a while to have a shot.


(comments are closed)