The Sad Truth, Part II
Y’know, the more I think about it, the more amazed I am at how badly this administration has botched our* foreign policy. We invade Iraq on the pretense of disarming its WMD programs, which turn out not to exist. Meanwhile, we get trapped in a brutal three-year occupation that sucks up ever more blood and treasure, completely crippling our diplomatic and military leverage in dealing with other threats. Iran and North Korea see that we’re stuck in the desert and thus accelerate their nuke programs. All in all, it’s a grade-A fiasco.
You would think that such failure would be humbling to the incompetents and ideologues who have run our foreign policy into the ground for the past six years. Sadly, you would be mistaken:
North Korea’s test could also unleash a nuclear arms race in Asia, with Japan and South Korea feeling pressure to build nuclear weapons for defensive reasons.
Yet a number of senior U.S. officials have said privately that they would welcome a North Korean test, regarding it as a clarifying event that would forever end the debate within the Bush administration about whether to solve the problem through diplomacy or through tough actions designed to destabilize North Korean leader Kim Jong Il’s grip on power.
To these assholes, everything, and I mean everything, can be used as justification to push through their crazy regime change plans. They have learned nothing from the Iraq experience; indeed, they see our failures in Iraq as proof that we need to invade more countries.
It’s all very depressing. But hey, at least gays can’t get married.
And on that note, I’m gonna go for a run now. Have a great Columbus Day.
*And yes, I say “our” because we’re paying for this nonsense.
The Republicans think that if the world is a dangerous and scary place they will stay in power, thus they must works towards making the world a dangerous and scary place. They have succeeded.
…a clarifying event that would forever end the debate within the Bush administration about whether to solve the problem through diplomacy or through tough actions designed to destabilize North Korean leader Kim Jong Il’s grip on power…
Destabilizing the regime of a paranoid lunatic like KJI seems perfectly safe. After all, it’s not like we have large numbers of troops or allies within convenient strike distance of his newly demonstrated nuclear capability.
What’s a “tough action” anyway? Oh no, another sanction! I’m sure they’re shaking in their boots at the prospect.
The precursor for this situation is the Bush Administration’s macho posturing. We don’t negotiate with evil; we defeat it. Well, if you’re going to say A, you sure as heck better be willing to say B. And I see no evidence that the administration actually intends to go there, which means yet another hit for the credibility of the U.S.
Of course, the alternative to a loss of credibility could be far worse, which kind of highlights the stupidity of getting ourselves into this position in the first place!
I’m sure it’s obvious to the Garybot, though, that this is all the Democrats’ fault. After all, if the Democrats hadn’t undermined Bush by making clear they would oppose any use of military force, he’d be able to blow North Korea away like the wingnuts all want him to. Never mind that the Democrats have no power, never mind that Bush has provided no evidence that he cares about anyone else’s opinion, let alone the Democrats’. We’ll be hearing plenty of this talking point, together with, of course, the easy jibe that it’s all Clinton’s fault.
There wasn’t one prominent figure that said that Saddam didn’t have WMDs. Therefore there is no partisan benefit to arm chair quarterbacking on Iraq.
As well, the Democrat Party is hopelessly in over their heads on foreign policy. The people still feel safer with Bush running things, and the Democrats have no plan to defeat the terrorists in Iraq.
There wasn’t one prominent figure that said that Saddam didn’t have WMDs
Silly Gary. Remember the UN weapons inspectors? The ones shrub declared were out of time to find the WMDs, and had to leave the country so we could bomb it?
Therefore there is no partisan benefit to arm chair quarterbacking on Iraq.
Really, I think we could learn quite a bit from this spectacular failure.
Not to mention, Garybot, that 99% of THE WORLD figured Saddam was impotent militarily, and were not willing to join us in our folly.
But I forgot Poland.
There wasn’t one prominent figure that said that Saddam didn’t have WMDs
Scott Ritter.
Presidentin’ is hard work.
Scott Ritter isn’t prominent and he doesn’t have credibility.
As well, Ritter is just as bad as Mark Foley when it comes to his personal life.
The people still feel safer with Bush running things
Not according to the polls, they don’t….
Credibility doesn’t mean what you think it means, Gary. Here, let me help:
Noun
* S: (n) credibility, credibleness, believability (the quality of being believable or trustworthy)
So, we have an Administration that assured us that Saddam had WMD and connections to 9/11. They lied. They lied about the lies. They lied about how things were going in Iraq. They lied about Katrina. There is nothing they will not lie about.
The only real question about this Adminstration is this: Is their incompetence greater, less than, or equal to their dishonesty?
And, by the way, they have no credibility.
Ritter was just a weapons inspector, IN IRAQ, what the fuck would he know?
And perpetrating rumors about his sex life which have been discredited repeatedly? How low do you really want to go to prove you’re full of shit?
I.F. Thunder, Gary uses his abridged version of the Republican Dictionary.
Credibility, (n) credibility, cerdibleness, agreement or degree of loudly agreeing with Republican talking points.
Thus the UN weapons inspectors had no credibility, the vast majoriy of the world who thought that it was impossible that Saddam posed some kind of immenent 45 minutes or less insurmountable threat, Scott Ritter has no credibliity, etc.
Similarly, the fact that the people who turned out to be absolutely right that Iraq posed no threat in March of 2003 are actually less credible since they loudly disagree with the established Republican Talking point of “well, whoopsie, how were we supposed to know that things turned out this way, but it must be better because Saddam IS gone after all.”
If you don’t develop your nukes, you can’t have any armageddon! How can you have any armageddon, if you don’t develop your nukes?!
Seriously. It’s like you guys are saying that an all out nuclear arms race in the far east is somehow a BAD thing!
The more nukes there are, the quicker Jesus can come back! Duh!!!!
People want Bush GONE!
There was plenty of safety before… everyone but teenagers remember how peaceful times were. There were fears but we as a people were suceeding in overcoming them.
Now, fear feeds war.
repugnicans are the corrupt, perverted big government spies they always accused Democrats of being!
Oooh! I think we have a substitute Gary today–he actually responded to a comment and was nearly on topic!
Scott Ritter isn’t prominent and he doesn’t have credibility.
Why doesn’t Ritter have credibility? Because Cheney’s OSP decided he didn’t?
Please, Gary, enlighten us: Why doesn’t the “go to” expert on Iraq weapons who was tapped to lead the inspections in Iraq have any credibility on whether or not Saddam had reactivated his WMD programs?
As for other “prominent” folks who doubted the WMD line? How about Russia, China, France, and the CIA? Any of those guys “prominent” enough for you?
This is going to be even worse, because cheney’s going to back us into a war with NorKor. By identifying Kim as a “Potential Proliferator”, he will order the US Navy to stop and search all shipping into and out of the country. Now, of course, this is an official “Act of War”, but we will be ceding the initiative to the DPRK. They will decide on the location and timing of their response, making it just that much more devistating, and leaving us in the position where all we can do is react by escalation. Man, history is going to be particularly harsh on this American administration…
mikey
Y’know, the more I think about it, the more amazed I am at how badly this administration has botched our* foreign policy.
They even made you forget about Afghanistan.
We should have taken care of N. Korea first, before Iraq. If we don’t do something about them soon, we’ll be sorry.
FEAR!! Terrible, burning fearful fear!! Now we have to listen to idiots telling us to fear the mighty military superiority of a deeply impoverished third world nation thousands of miles away in Northeast Asia. Christ, I remember when Americans, while recognizing the waste, at least had pride in our military capability. Jeez, folks, if spending almost 5% of GDP on our armed forces doesn’t even protect us from the likes of Iraq and North Korea, something is badly skewed. Other than running around in circles screaming, can anyone tell me logically just what exactly we’re afraid North Korea might do to us? ‘Cause quite honestly, I can’t think of any reason to be afraid of them…
mikey
*ooooooh – Oogah Boogah*
Didja sprain something jerking that knee, anniebelle?
BTW, the only thing scarier than KIJ having nuclear weapons is Dick Cheney having nuclear weapons….
Gary, no post about how NK’s test helps the Republicans? I am disappointed.
The new ATLANTIC has a front-cover piece by Robert Kaplan on the coming collapse of Kim Jong Il and the ensuing “inevitable” Korean War II. Kaplan’s verdict? Bring it on, suckahs, our brave American military in Korea gets to play with the Big Toys at last! *Sigh.* Let’s buy every rightard MSM player all the newest military games plus the largest available wide-screen tv — maybe they’d stop trying to play war with real, live soldiers…
The War Nerd has been warning us about North Korea for a long time. We have much to learn from him…
http://www.exile.ru/2003-February-06/war_nerd.html
BTW, small site error, Brad – your pic of Adam Yoshida on this post looks a bit…off.
So how is N. Korea having nukes a good thing?
It forces China and Russia to take an active role in peacekeeping in their backyard.
NK having nukes is not a good thing.
However, they have a large, tough military which is capable of raining destruction down upon thier neighbors. Military action against them would result in a victory of the most Pyrrhic sort.
Iraq had an exhausted, destroyed military, and we can’t seem to defeat them. Do you really think we’re going to be able to unilaterally take on the toughtest guys in the world?
Don’t drink before you post, Annie.
False dichotomy at work here. Thinking the Bush administration doesn’t have a clue or a care when it comes to foreign policy, especially when it comes to the human cost of said “policy”, and that the very same administration has absolutely no credibility or trustworthiness when it comes to said issue doesn’t mean one automatically thinks North Korea’s possession of nuclear weapons is a “good thing”.
But North Korea does have nuclear capability, even if it’s of a very limited sort, and the country is led by a complete looney tune is a fact of existence and must be dealt with in some manner. However, anyone who thinks the answer lies with anything to do with or said by the current group of fools in charge of the American machine is a goddamn idjit and should be treated as thus.
Like Brad said, the Bush people have had six whole years to deal with the “North Korea problem”, and all they’ve done is wag their tiny dicks at them. It’s way past the point where new people should get a crack at it.
We should nuke them before their capabilities become less limited.
Look, this is crazy. As a result of the collapse of the Soviet Union and the resulting mono-polar world dominated by a single “superpower”, the first half of this century will be marked by small scale nuclear proliferation. Too many nations have the capability to produce weapons for the knowledge or material to be controlled by a few. And smaller nations realize they must either pledge fealty to the United States or build at least a small nuclear arsenal. There is no other real option for guaranteeing your sovreignity.
If you accept the premise that small-scale nuclear proliferation is inevitable, or at least not preventable, then you’ve got to figure out what the appropriate response is. And a military strike on every country that develops nuclear technology is not only not a sustainable strategy, it would actually be counter productive. We’re going to have to live in a world where nuclear weapons are in the hands of more nations, not all of them our friends. Some combination of deterence, diplomacy and coersion is going to have to be our approach to them. The sooner we stop making belicose noises at everyone we don’t like and begin to think about living in the world in a sustainable, peaceful way, accepting that we will no longer be able to impose our will militarily on anyone who isn’t white and christian, the sooner we will beging to be truly safe…
mikey
Yet a number of senior U.S. officials have said privately that they would welcome Armeggedon, regarding it as a clarifying event that would forever end the debate within the Bush administration about whether to solve the problem through diplomacy or through tough actions designed to destabilize the Middle East.
Hey, when I put my annie filter on, I discover that pretty much every comment here is working toward the noble goal of having a rational argument. Well, OK, I guess we can’t really call Gary’s stuff rational, but at least he’s trying. And you have to admit that there’s something almost cute about Gary calling anyone “hopelessly in over their heads.”
You can have all the rational arguements you want, it won’t change the fact that N. Korea is working toward some insane goal and we need to check them and HARD before they realize it.
If you accept the premise that small-scale nuclear proliferation is inevitable, or at least not preventable, then you’ve got to figure out what “the appropriate response is. And a military strike on every country that develops nuclear technology is not only not a sustainable strategy, it would actually be counter productive. We’re going to have to live in a world where nuclear weapons are in the hands of more nations, not all of them our friends. Some combination of deterence, diplomacy and coersion is going to have to be our approach to them. The sooner we stop making belicose noises at everyone we don’t like and begin to think about living in the world in a sustainable, peaceful way, accepting that we will no longer be able to impose our will militarily on anyone who isn’t white and christian, the sooner we will beging to be truly safe.”
Thank you mikey, for saying succinctly what needed to be said. Proliferation is inevitable, the question is how to respond. We can be belligerent, strong-arming @ssholes or we can look at the problem intelligently and give the responses that will keep people safe. I don’t have a lot of faith in us responding the correct way, but stranger things have happened. We’ve gotten this far through MAD, so we may be able to figure this situation out.
Wrong. It’s not inevitable at all. We need to be strong now, if we are weak it won’t be long before these nutbar nations with nukes make their own pacts which don’t include us. They don’t need nukes in N. Korea except to threaten their neighbors, and that should not be acceptable. If they want nukes then they should put up with the consequenses, which should be nuclear and immediate.
As the guy who sort of inspired the last two posts, I’d like to make a couple of things clear.
1) Nuclear North Korea is a massive foreign policy failure by the Bush administration. Bush is not keeping us safe. He is insane.
2) Foleygate is a “real” scandal. What’s sort of fascinating about it is how perfectly it illustrates in miniature all of the reasons the Republicans need to have their asses kicked out of office.
3) The United States is not a credible threat to Kim Jong-Il. That’s why the nuclear test (assuming it’s real) happened. If North Korea has nukes, diplomacy is the answer, not more Bush-retarded exercises in military force.
4) Vote Democratic in November!
That is all.
It seems that annie’s solution to every problem is violent death on a massive scale. What the hell does she do when she runs out of bread? Kill everyone at safeway?
mikey
So Mikey, you equate running out of bread to N. Korea having nukes. Nice to know you take this seriously. *eye roll*
Gee, I don’ know, Annie, but if we nuke North Korea back to the Cambrian Age, there might, just might I say, be a problem with the massive fall-out spreading death, cancer, and destruction through South Korea, Japan, China, and most of Southeast Asia. Look at a map sometime, and then imagine 1000 Chernobyls going off simultaneously all over North Korea. Maybe you’re eager to be breathing in radioactive dust for the foreseeable future so you can have an orgasm over the horrible deaths of 100 million human beings, but I can’t think of anyone in the “reality-based community” who wants too join you in your bunker.
Does it ever fucking occur to any one of you that this isn’t about how “you feel?” That this isn’t about your own damn foreign policy or about how many drugs and how much booze “Mickey” is using to get over Vietnam?
Listen, sweeties. This is about you anymore. This about how North Korea is going to turn Portland, Oregon into a sheet of glass.
You might want to give some thought to using something to get over your rage, Mal.
It’s just sad at this point.
Oh christ, loony alert.
Mal de Mer — The new Deb Frisch…
mikey
“We should nuke them before their capabilities become less limited.”
Christianity in action, folks!
We have to nuke these North Korean nutbars. but first we have to sneak some Christian missionaries in to spread the word of Jesus to the civilian populace. Then, when we nuke them to save them from Kim Jong Il we know that we are sending them to a better place… Heaven! Where every day is a half-naked Thursday!
As Jesus always says, “Fuck-fuck-fuck-fuck fuckety fuck!”
“annieangel said,
October 9, 2006 at 23:29
Wrong. It’s not inevitable at all. We need to be strong now, if we are weak it won’t be long before these nutbar nations with nukes make their own pacts which don’t include us. They don’t need nukes in N. Korea except to threaten their neighbors, and that should not be acceptable. If they want nukes then they should put up with the consequenses, which should be nuclear and immediate.”
Annie, I used to think you were just severely misguided, not completely insane. What were the consequences of Pakistan joining the club? How about India?
You can’t be judge, jury and executioner to the world. You can only be a player on the world stage, in our case a major player, and hope things work your way, through mostly economic, sometimes strategically military means. To think we can prevent proliferation by using said weapons is f@cking insane and only weakens your already sad argument.
Tucker Carlson on the Chris Matthews show this weekend (according to Atrios):
CARLSON: It goes deeper than that though. The deep truth is that the elites in the Republican Party have pure contempt for the evangelicals who put their party in power. Everybody in…
MATTHEWS: How do you know that? How do you know that?
CARLSON: Because I know them. Because I grew up with them. Because I live with them. They live on my street. Because I live in Washington, and I know that everybody in our world has contempt for the evangelicals. And the evangelicals know that, and they’re beginning to learn that their own leaders sort of look askance at them and don’t share their values.
MATTHEWS: So this gay marriage issue and other issues related to the gay lifestyle are simply tools to get elected?
CARLSON: That’s exactly right. It’s pandering to the base in the most cynical way, and the base is beginning to figure it out
Have not seen the show or video, but, if he really said that, then, to quote a sae, UMMMMMMMMM, beautiful.
I think what I respect most about Annie is that while she’s willing to have the blood of innocent millions on her hands, she holds no truck with that fucking orange juice concentrate.
I’m still trying to figure out why “f@cking” creates a link to my e-mail; makes about as much sense as Annie’s diatribes.
And the picture of Kim? That’s hawt.
annie is not a fun troll at all. I think she’s trying to be entertaining, but she’s just like some car alarm pointless going off in the night.
Browsers see the @ sign and create a mailto: link. Someday they’ll be smart enough to recognize what is and is not an email address…
mikey
Has anybody considered the possibility that President 15 holes-in-one-playing-first-ever-round-of-golf just might be full of shit about this?
This about how North Korea is going to turn Portland, Oregon into a sheet of glass like the kikes and hebes have always wanted.
We only attack and occupy to secure our “interests”. There isn’t anything “interesting” in North Korea except a bunch of poor, starving Koreans – Halliburton ran the cost benefit analysis and decided against it. We also are too cowardly to attack real threats. We like to attack known weaklings and then thump our chests.
Shorter: North Korea has no oil to speak of and they have China backing them.
OK, who’s doing the fake mal de mer? Like the authentic one isn’t enough of a challenge?
Sorry. Teh crazy, it gets to me.
[/humorlessness]
The Proliferator vs. The Decider Ultimate Smackdown! Fifteen-minute time limit, three falls, in the steel cage!
“Oh christ, loony alert.
Mal de Mer — The new Deb Frisch…”
Ah ha ha! That’s so funny! Swig some more whiskey, bitch about how much you hate your own damn country, and how much that “tears you apart.”
*yawn*
The problem with you people (even you bright, funny ones) is that you’ve lost control of your ruling class. It was a hoot before, but now…welll…they’re torturing people.
…not good.
Hah. Actually, kitty, it IS pretty funny…
mikey
The problem with you people (even you bright, funny ones) is that you’ve lost control of your New York kikes and hebes.
Sorry if I’m a bit dense, but “you’ve lost control of your ruling class?” WTF? Doesn’t the “ruling class,” sorta by definition, actually, y’know…rule?
you’ve lost control of your ruling class
Mal, we get that you’re mightily pissed. But you might want to check out a valid definition of “ruling class,” which essentially means those in power. It’s hard to lose control of something one has never actually controlled.
The fact that people are spending time here venting about hating their current government (not necessarily, as you say, our “own damn country”) does not negate the possibility that many of us are also out doing whatever we can to bring about change. Your indiscriminate vitriol really doesn’t help anything.
Hey Pantload, jinx you owe me a coke (or something like that).
Sorry if I’m a bit dense, but “you’ve lost control of your ruling class?� WTF? Doesn’t the “ruling class,� sorta by definition, actually, y’know…rule?
You used to elect your ruling class. Now…well, frankly, I don’t know what you do anymore. Most of you don’t vote, anyway.
By the way, I love how most of you are getting defensive. Seriously, Iraqis are dying by the truckload, North Korea drops the bomb, Iran is either the next North Korea or the next Iraq, and you’re all worried that some foreigner is dissing you.
I’m sorry…Americans are the dumbest people in the world.
“I’m sorry…Americans are the dumbest people in the world.”
Not an American and I still don’t see anything constructive in your posts.
Not an American and I still don’t see anything constructive in your posts.
Good. Because I don’t intend my comments here to be constructive.
Hey tough guy. For the record, I think these people have given you a lot of chances to behave in a somewhat civil manner. You’ve pissed on ’em every chance you get. From here, I can’t understand why they continue to coddle you. And I’m surprised that you’d play the stupid/annie type card in your communications here. (Actually, I don’t understand why you come here to spew your vitrol at all – does it give you a boner or something?) But I’ve had it with your bullshit. I am not responsible for what has happened in the world, if you think I am you’re an ignorant fucktard. But make no mistake, you unredeemed prick, I LOVE my country. It’s gone off the tracks, but it’s still where I come from. Yeah, you’re allowed to say anything you want, motherfucker, but I’ll bet just about everything I’ve got you wouldn’t have the sand to say it to my face. So get it straight. You had some people who cared about you, even over the internet. I don’t know about other folks, I used to be one. But you’ve shit all over that in some demented deb frisch – like obsession with spewing hatred at the people at Sadly, No. All I can say is that in your life’s body of work, I doubt if that’s something I’d be proud of.
Just one more thing. Fuck off, and die hard and dirty, kitty….
mikey
Trolls and jerkoffs–
It should now be plain to all of us that the bellicose foreign policy of George W. Bush has made the world a far more dangerous place. With his tin ear for diplomacy and “Bring ’em on” cowboyism, he has made the United States look like a dangerous, aggressive rogue nation. George Bush is such a disgusting pile of puke, he actually allows monsters like Osama bin Laden and Kim Jong-Il to claim a piece of moral high ground. If you were a little tin-pot dictator of some podunk country, wouldn’t YOU be looking to get nukes?
All of your spinning and false-dichotomy rhetorical questions cannot change the fact that Repubs have failed us in the national security department. The world knows it, and finally it appears that enough people in the USA know it. If Gary and Annie and Dicklimpy want to go down with the ship, that’s their choice.
You should all also know that George Bush’s “Christianity” is completely fake and manufactured. He laughs at you idiots every day. He plays you like violins.
And a note to Mal–
It’s easy to lob insults from your safe haven in Canada, a country which is nice enough but is completely irrelevant when it comes to global politics. If your country mattered one little tiny bit, I assure you things would be a lot more complicated and your leaders would do some things you are not proud of. Remember who’s got your back when some real shit goes down. It’s us “stupid” Americans.
At least we don’t have the Queen of England on our money.
It’s easy to lob insults from your safe haven in Canada, a country which is nice enough but is completely irrelevant when it comes to global politics.
Oh, how very lovely. I really hope some day Canada renders your fat ass to Syria and tortures you.
Bastard.
At least we don’t have the Queen of England on our money.
Proof that Americans are stupid.
Thank you.
Captain Seasick is a Canadian? And a Froggie one, to boot? Jesus Christ. That explains everything. Seasick, ‘fess up – you’re just jealous ’cause all Americans are millionaires, every guy has a 10″ dick, and we murder the shit out of non-white people AND DON’T EVEN SAY “EXCUSE ME!”
Smiling Mortician – coke, pepsi, whatever you’re drinking – I’ll buy the next round.
I see someone can dish it out but can’t take it. How surprising.
Man, can you guys give it up already? Naked pyramids at Abu Ghraid kind of queered the whole “But We Americans are so Good….” myth.
Move on, already….follow most of your ruling class’s advice…”intern the Muslims.” You’ll feel better about it, and forget about the…
1. Theft of most of Mexico
2. Annexation of Hawaii
3. Invasion of the Philipines
4. The four million dead Vietnamese
5. Guatemala
6. Nicaragua
7. 100,000 dead in Iraq…
..God, are you Americans only happy when you’re killing people?
I haven’t killed anybody in the longest time…probably explains why I’m so cranky.
Well, Jeez Jillian, will you come over here and help me dispose of all these damn bodies then?
mikey
Naked pyramids at Abu Ghraid kind of queered the whole “But We Americans are so Good….� myth.
Straw man. You are putting words in our mouth. Obviously we’re ashamed of Abu Ghraib.
You know what? You’re a moron and a humorless git to boot. Your whole “I’m-Canadian-thus-I’m-morally-superior-to-you” shtick is tired and lame. Your self-esteem must be in the toilet. If trolling left-wing comedy sites and insulting Americans– in a witless, humorless way, I might add– is your idea of entertainment, your life must be awfully small.
Get bent.
Aww, don’t be that way, JK….just go kill someone.
You’ll feel better then!
Guys. How many times do I have to tell you. Annie ain’t real. Don’t respond, and she will go away.
You’re a moron and a humorless git to boot.
Right. I’m the problem here. I’m humourless. Naked pyradmids and 100,000 dead Iraqis…hey, no biggie!
You’re a fucking twat, JK47.
Pantload, I’d like to upgrade to a nice single malt, if you don’t mind.
I’m real.
He used to be a pretty good poster; he’s almost unrecognizable now. Sad.
You’re a fucking twat, JK47.
Pantload, I’d like to upgrade to a nice single malt, if you don’t mind.
I’m real.
My gawd. If it ain’t haiku then at least it’s some kind of free form poetry. Love you guys…
mikey
At least we don’t have kikes and hebes on our money!
This used to be a blog for internaltional issues. Now it mostly focusses on dipshit moronic Americans who write for TownHall and RenewAmerica.
…give me strength!
Mal de Mer, if you are posting from Canada, what you just wrote could be considered hate speech. Electronically transmitted hate speech at that.
Now go drink a Pepsi.
Oh, wow….I’d kill for a good scotch tonight.
Like, for real.
(are the Scotch snobs going to hate me if I admit to an inordinate fondness for The Glenlivet?)
Well, not what you just wrote, your 3:49 post about the “kikes and hebes.”
Y’gotta drink the glenlivet ’cause what the hell else single malt they GOT in your regular old bar? So I gotcher back there, but I’d have a dram of the Laphroaig to cleanse the pallate if I were you…
mikey
I’ll bring the homemade baked goodies…..what time should I be there?
Right. I’m the problem here. I’m humourless. Naked pyradmids and 100,000 dead Iraqis…hey, no biggie!
Nakes pyramids and dead Iraqi civilians are terrible, terrible things. That doesn’t mean you’re not a tedious cunt.
Mal de Mer, if you are posting from Canada, what you just wrote could be considered hate speech. Electronically transmitted hate speech at that.
No, m’dear. I have to call for violence and/or genocide against an identifiable group. And, as we all know, only Americans call for genocide these days.
Nakes pyramids and dead Iraqi civilians are terrible, terrible things. That doesn’t mean you’re not a tedious cunt.
Whoa! Some little Yankee Doodle Dandy’s obviously upset. Calm down sweetie. Invade a 3rd-world country or something to take the edge off.
2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of
(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.
Defences
(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)
(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;
(b) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;
(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or
(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.
http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/sec319.html
Mal de mer, all of us down here in America are disgusted and ashamed. I haven’t lost members of my family thanks to the Bush criminals, as you have, but seriously, you’re taking this out on the wrong people.
We have to nuke these North Korean nutbars. but first we have to sneak some Christian missionaries in to spread the word of Jesus to the civilian populace. Then, when we nuke them to save them from Kim Jong Il we know that we are sending them to a better place… Heaven! Where every day is a half-naked Thursday!
As Jesus always says, “Fuck-fuck-fuck-fuck fuckety fuck!�
Anngieanal, you could have thrown in some smileys and a “rolls eyes” or two. Maybe even tossed off a lame come-on to another poster. Otherwise, you got AA down pitch-perfect. Bravo!
Not even close. We introduce the heathens to Jesus because we know they will reject Him and go straight to Hell when we nuke their asses. Duh.
Annie, if you notice, the “kikes and hebes” comment was posted by “Mel” de mer, a subtle parody of our resident whistle-ass. I don’t remember exactly what the “kikes and hebes” thing was about in the first place. Anybody care to set the record straight?
Oh. Thanks, JK47. :):)
Smiling Mortician – you’re on. And if the bartender’s really snotty, I’ll order a Dr. Pepper chaser.
All you other single-malt fans: sorry, my paycheck ain’t big enough to buy a full round.
mikey – try putting a shot of Laphroig into turkey stuffing. Gives it an incredible background flavor. A bit pricey, but it only takes a shot.
Mal de Mer – you are correct; I’ve become very, very defensive. I assure you that if America reinstituted a draft and tried to haul my sorry old ass in, I’d flee to Mexico just to spite Canada.
Naked pyramids at Abu Ghraid kind of queered the whole “But We Americans are so Good….� myth.
I haven’t read every comment on the Sadly No site, but I feel pretty confident in sayng that (1) no one here has ever relied on “Americans are so Good” as a belief or argument, and (2) a “myth” that “Americans are so Good” was actually “queered” much much earlier that Abu Gharib.
I was actually just thinking about you recently Mal, and wondering how you were doing. I guess I know now. I am sorry to see the healing process doesn’t seem to be going very well. Best wishes.
This we should be dragged into?
I know what’s on Canadian money.
The loon. As in looney.
Um, by now if you haven’t already gotten the clue that these people are complete idiots I’d be worried…
Responding, in a roundabout way, to MdM…
I quite understand the urge to berate the Sadly-No commentariat — or at least the US citizens among them — about the idiocy and moral emptiness of their fellow-citizens. An inexhaustible topic for rhetoric. “1/3 of voters still think Bush is doing a good job! Sheesh! Do you guys have compulsary Stupid Lessons at school, or something?”
I also understand the urge to burn down prominent public buildings, but that’s getting OT.
Anyway, if I did start writing incisive sociological comments like “are you Americans only happy when you’re killing people?”, it’s possible that I would shame the readers into, I don’t know, staging a violent revolution and seizing back the levers of power. But it’s more likely that they would tell me to kiss their bioengineered post-human butts. It’s also possible that they would ask what I was doing myself to make the policies of my own pissant little country more progressive… and that would be embarrassing [Jillian, you’re always welcome here, by the way].
Complaints that the Sadly-Nauts are wasting their time, sitting around writing comments when they should be out in the fresh air, holding rallies or whatever… There would be something ironic about that.
So I send that kind of comment to Flying Rodent’s blog where he’s more likely to appreciate it.
There’s nothing wrong with The Glenlivet. Glenfiddich, now there I have doubts (some of my Scottish mates call it a Cooking whisky). I came for the irony and stayed for the whisky snobbery.
Come on, Herr! I’m sure just we’re just ONE MORE peace rally away from stoping the Bushco.
Some people (and they know who they are) seem to subscribe to the belief of an American Democratic Collective Hivemind, the same as El Laden. “Well, the American people don’t shoot their leaders we don’t like, so they’re just as evil.”
I dunno. I”m sick of people bitching about America’s dominance in the world. Know what? Maybe you should stop bitching about why the American electorate doesn’t change, and wonder why other nations don’t do things? Asia, especially China, practically owns our economy. Canada has itself set up to become the next big international business hub. Near as I can tell, most of Europe’s been riding the Cold War for all it’s worth (I’m willing to give Eastern Europe a pass, but come on, we’re looking at fifteen years soon, time to shape up). India is poised to become the biggest intellectual breakthough nation since the 1950s. Hell, America practically produces nothing for itself, and exports even less. What the hell is wrong with you all?
You don’t like American Military presence? Here’s a thought: maybe you other first world nations (and you know who you are) could build up your own damn military presence, and police your own damn backyards. I’m sick of us always having to spearhead every damn peacekeeping mission.
Stop whining. Do something.
You know what, Mal? I think Hawaii turned out pretty good. Stealing Mexico? It was a war, they lost, deal with it. What, you think the boarders just drew themselves right after the last Ice Age, and now we JUST got around to filling them in right?
USA colonialization PALES in comparison to European colonial expansion. If you think otherwise for second, you’re a damn idiot. Entire reigons are, to this day, realing from the effects of European, particularly British, colonialization.
America is by far the most generous nation on the planet. Every internation aide effort is supported by a noticable, if not vast, amount of American money. (I think we dropped the ball with the Pakistan Earthquake, but that’s another rant) But I guess that doesn’t matter, cause we did some shit a hundred years ago.
You don’t like what we’re doing? Then build yourselves up so you can bring something to the table. Stop. Whining.
Geez, Some Guy….don’t let reality get in the way of your fantasy America or anything.
And that “some shit a hundred years ago” crack is pretty ignorant on your part. Aren’t you old enough to remember El Salvador? Anyone ever teach you about Guatemala? Do you like the Taliban? Because if you do, be sure to send Bush sr. and Reagan thank-you cards for them.
It’s too early in the morning for me to even touch the rest of it – the stink of American exceptionalism is hard to wash off, and I work around other people. Now, stop using tu quoque like it’s a martial art and come play nicely with the others.
You know, I am terrified by this thread. Bona fide third world viewpoint here (as well as a citizen of the only country to build its own nukes & give them up)
Rampant American exceptionalism USA! USA!, Canadian concern trolling, fundie genocide advocating. I just want to drink myself into a surly oblivion after this thread.
Once I dreamed I would write a brilliant dystopian satire, along the lines of Brave New World, Handmaids Tale or 1984. I was going to, not make it so over done. But Sadly No!, it seems the truth is stranger than fiction.
PS “Some Guy”, at least my own european colonial ancestors left more of the native inhabitants alive than yours so meh.
PPS And Mel, lining up the Sadly No! members against the wall and shooting them for the actions of the US government, would be as pointless as blaming the pedestrians for the actions of the driver who drove over a person on the sidewalk.
The mind drifts back to the days when the Iraqi leader was commonly referred to as “SoDamn Insane” – fragments of memory pop up: Saddam’s “blink rate” in televised speeches being provided as evidence of his schizophrenia, for example. Turns out that Saddam was not so insane that he was unable to stand trial; turns out that he was merely Evil[tm].
And now:
NKorea “the craziest country on Earth” – Brad R.
KJI “a paranoid lunatic” – phleabo
KJI “a complete looney tune” – Matt T
I wonder whether this is a sort of folk wisdom that Brad R. has learned from phleabo and Mark T while phleabo and Mark T have been learning it from Brad R. (and mutatis mutandis for other permutations), or whether this is part of buying into Dubya’s assertions on who is and isn’t evil. That is, is this a psychological assessment arrived at independantly, or does it arise from the current Administration’s manipulation of the media? Related question: What evidence do most Americans have for thinking that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons? Is it, again, Administration assertions?
Glenlivet, Glenfiddich, Laphroaig, Coke/Pepsi: you can certainly avoid having your thinking tainted by cheap propaganda and high-priced branding if you opt for a hermitage in the woods, but what sort of a life is that?
And about being Canadian: I may be the least patriotic person in this damn country, but I still feel that someone here should apologize for David Frum.
I might not have expressed myself so well upstream… my point was that MdM is not exactly directing his complaints to the right audience. Discharging his anger on Sadly,No might create a warm fuzzy feeling inside, but it might also be better spent on campaigning to change the Canadian government, or responding to posts on wingnut blogs. Such was my authorial intention.
Time for another akvavit.
Mission Accomplished!
Mal queefs again!
Enough with the insults to Canada, please. MdM is a wingnut, just as annieangel is a wingnut but I don’t make the mistake of thinking she represents all Americans. Defending U.S. imperialism doesn’t help either but it is, at least, more amusing.
I would like it if comments defending America, or noting that everything about America is not Teh Evil, were not reflexibly labeled “American Exceptionalism”.
It doesn’t help the discussion and ends up muddying the waters so that people who actually ascribe to “American Exceptionalism” (see The Corner) can get away with it because what that actually means becomes debased.
It easy enough to argue on the merits, don’t get lazy and just attempt to shut down discussion by throwing around labels like that. It doesn’t get us anywhere.
I didn’t agree with everything Some Guy posted, but I really think we can all agree that it wasn’t “American Exceptionalism.”
Just stop laughing, Sugar Tits!
fuck, you people are depressing me.
“USA colonialization PALES in comparison to European colonial expansion”
Perhaps I do not understand what American Exceptionalism is, if the above is not it. If not then I would value an explanation.
The above is not it.
Make a tally of European colonies. Next to that make a tally of American colonies.
Compare.
annieangel said, October 9, 2006 at 21:18
“We should nuke them before their capabilities become less limited.”
I say we should nuke the entire world, lest somebody else get nukes and threaten us with them…once everyone is dead, there will be no threat.
TA DA!
“This about how North Korea is going to turn Portland, Oregon into a sheet of glass.”
USA USA!
I’m all for it Mal…
“I’m sorry…Americans are the dumbest people in the world.”
I think the phrase you’re looking for is “deliberately obtuse”.
..and yes, we are.
I’m paraphrasing Churchill here, but he said something to the effect of, Americans always do the right thing, but only after they’ve done everything else. Seemed appropriate.
I wonder whether this is a sort of folk wisdom that Brad R. has learned from phleabo and Mark T while phleabo and Mark T have been learning it from Brad R. (and mutatis mutandis for other permutations), or whether this is part of buying into Dubya’s assertions on who is and isn’t evil. That is, is this a psychological assessment arrived at independantly, or does it arise from the current Administration’s manipulation of the media?
Nobody with a brain needs Bush to tell them that Kim is not a nice guy. Methinks Kim Jong Il gives us plenty of reason to think he’s batshit. You know, building up the military at the expense of people, allowing famine to kill millions, not allowing civil rights, etc., all qualifies one as being on the evil side, IMHO.
Kim is a murderous, paranoid nutbar with strange hair who lives in luxury while his people perish. Bush would have us believe that Kim is also suicidal–as turning Portland into glass would be just as suicidal for Kim as slashing his wrists while drunk in the deep end of the pool.
We have ample evidence for the former, and none to corroborate the latter. (In fact, Kim’s nuclear actions make the most sense viewed in light of self-defense against the US.)
LiberalDirk:
I think he was referring to “The sun never sets on the British Empire.”
Like so many things (stuffed pastries, baseball) the answer lies somewhere in the middle. No, America is not the be-all and end-all of multipurpose nefarious evil, nor is she a paragon of righteous goodness. Like any other powerful nation, she has done wonderful things and darkly egregious things. The same could be said about Britain, Spain, Russia, China, Japan – shit, Botswana. This argument was stimulated by Mal de Mer’s obsessive, demented attention trolling and therefore started out skewed.
Humans are flawed. Many of their undertakings are flawed. No government is all good, all the time. Humans also have a strong altruistic tendency. No government is all evil, all the time. A confluence of events and demographic changes over time allowed the current crop of thugs to take power, and they have done some truly heinous things. The same could be said, I’d point out, about Blair, Putin and Hu. Oh, and I wouldn’t expect a lot of candy and flowers from Abe. But come on, none of this is news. Regardless of the bleatings of crazed loonies like MdM, I still love my country, and I believe that, flawed though she is, America represents a pretty serious step forward in the methodology of human governance. Now, if you can find American Exceptionalism in that paragraph, you probably can find the Loch Ness Monster on your front porch selling girl scout cookies. People who believe that America can do no wrong in the world are no different than people who believe christians are always right or that you can vary from the Basic Strategy in Blackjack and still win. A delusion, certainly, but no less a delusion than those who believe all evil flows from North America.
When you look at the real world it’s just never that simple. To try to make it black and white is lazy and disingenuous.
mikey
mikey,
What about Poland? You forgot Poland.
What makes comments about how American colonies fared sooooo much better than Yurpean colonies a classic example of American exceptionalism has nothing at all to do with a little number totting game of who had more colonies. Nor is it about who was worse to its colonies.
It’s the automatic assumption that any country in the world ought to be glad it came under the sphere of American control. It’s about looking down our noses at the Rudyard Kipling stereotype of the British colonialists at the same time we express honest confusion about how come everybody doesn’t love the Peace Corps as much as we do.
Colonialism is a complicated subject, and there are reasons why American colonial efforts don’t usually look like British or Belgian or French colonial efforts. A lot of that has to do with the different geopolitical and technial realities of the nineteenth century (when European colonialism was at its height) and the twentieth century (whem American colonialism was).
Try saying that “Hawai’i turned out okay” stuff on one of the islands, and see how long your haoli ass makes it.
Outright brutality is not the only cruelty colonialism brings, and trying to argue that it is sounds an awful lot like an argument that waterboarding isn’t really torture because it’s not all that bad.
It’s pretty stupid to say that America’s colonies somehow turned out better than the rest of the European colonies. You know, consider that most of Europe’s colonies have achieved some sort of independence under the rule of their own, native people. The vast majority of America’s colonies are now called “The United States of America” and what’s left of its native people are stashed away on the shittiest land we could find. At least until some sort of natural resources are found on those lands, anyway…
Which reminds me, dumbshit de mer, you left out one of America’s atrocities:
8. The wanton slaughter of the natives of North America, and the theft of all their land
I wonder why you’d leave that one out? Could it be because there was another country doing that too? What was it called…. Canada? Nah, that can’t be it, since as a Canadien that’d make you personally responsible, just like all living Americans can be held personally responsible for the fucking invasion of the Phillipines over a hundred years ago.
How about
9. Defeating Nazi Germany in WWII
*GASP* Wait, not every single thing that America has ever ever done is the epitome of tewrrible evil?!?!?111?!?1?1! That just can’t be! Could it be that the US, like most every other country in the world, has committed both atrocities AND great things over the course of it’s history? Could it be that Mikey is correct, as usual? And could it be the Mal de Mer has turned into a worthless bigot?
Naw….
Kim is a murderous, paranoid nutbar – MCH
Having already suffered through a serious bout of devastation wrought by the United States, North Koreans might be seen as quite justified in exhibiting more suspiciousness than friendliness toward a hawkish American government. Really, MCH, try getting up to speed on some of the background here.
To quote myself:
(In fact, Kim’s nuclear actions make the most sense viewed in light of self-defense against the US.)
Try reading the whole comment next time, fred.
but see Jillian, Some Guy didn’t say “American colonies fared sooooo much better than Yurpean colonies”
Nor did he say “any country in the world ought to be glad it came under the sphere of American control.”
Nor did he ” express honest confusion about how come everybody doesn’t love the Peace Corps as much as we do.”
He just flat out did not say any of those things.
Like I said I didn’t agree with a lot of his post (Hawai’i turned out ok being a good example), but let’s respond on the merits and not exagerrate what people are saying.
Kathleen, the claim that we’re the most generous nation on earth and that our colonial efforts “pale in comparison” to other countries both strike me as examples of American exceptionalism. Minimizing our colonial efforts to “some shit we did a hundred years ago”, while making British colonialism out to be the dominant force in postcolonial politics in the world today, strikes me as the same.
I understand you’re reading it differently. You just haven’t really explained to me what your reading consists of yet, so I don’t know how else to respond.
Wow, I don’t think I’ve ever seen such rampant nationalism on this site. America bashers and haters, one-upping on the colonialism and all that. I think we all want this country to be something better than it’s been, but lobbing loogies at each other won’t get the job done. I come for the snark, but always leave with a sense that there’s some sensible Americans out there who might go to meeting or pull the lever the right way come November. You’re harshing my mellow, man.
Lemonheads is dead right. We shouldn’t let a couple of wingnuts threadjack Sadly, No so that we start eating our young (and old). It’s perfectly ok to be realistic about America’s history, but it’s equally important to be honest. The bush/cheney cabal has trashed America and all she stands for. You wanna stand with them and kick her when she’s down. Nobody here can “fix” the shit that has happened in history. It’s important to know, but I’m not going to carry the guilt around. I did not fucking do it. I never killed a Native American, I never killed a Salvadoran, I never killed a Hawaiian. I’ve made my peace with the Asians I HAVE killed. I’m not going to play this game, become some kind of “Self Hating American”. There’s no percentage in it. I’m going to do what I can to get my country back on track. Not for Mal. Not for Jillian. Not even for me. But because this experiment deserves a chance to go on.
mikey
I couldn’t hack the AA and the MdM getting abusively drunker and drunker, so I scrolled down to comment, and if someone already mentioned this, I apologize in advance for repeating it.
The seismic event that marked NK’s test was only…what? a 4.1–for an underground Nuclear Test that’s really quite….unimpressive. It points more towards a failure of their bomb than anything.
Nuking NK (as the Xtian wants to do) will only slaughter millions of innocent civilians. Kind of like using a hammer to kill a gnat. I think reaching another agreement would nip this in the bud. But then, that would take a President who actually has the brains and intellect to BE a diplomat, instead of a kid playing cowboys and indians.
NK has a bomb(and not a very good one….yet) because the Bush admn. decided anything Clinton did was bad. So they back out of the deal that kept NK’s plutonium from being used to make WMDs for…6 or 7 years, and all they got in return was a reactivation of NK’s weapons production. This is THEIR FAULT. The Bush’s blew it. AGAIN.
Mikey’s on it. It’s what happens from here that matters; I could rail on my idiot neighbors for voting for Bush and put the bumper sticker on my ride, but that ain’t gonna do shit. I could ride my liberal guilt through valley of history but it’s not gonna make my kid’s futures any better. WORK to make the next day better, ’cause yeah, yesterday sucked, but tomorrow doesn’t have to.
If anyone knows of a Drinking Liberally meeting in or near Detroit, let me know. I’ve been looking, and there’s only been one here recently (that I know of).
Thanks, mikey and lemonheads. All day looking at this thread has made me feel rather like the kid whose parents are screaming at each other because the goddamn roof blew off in a storm and they can’t afford to fix it because the goddamn boss just threatened cutbacks and they’re absolutely terrified of what’s coming next and there’s no one else to scream at . . .
Disagreement doesn’t have to mean the *end* of communication. It can often mean the *beginning* of communication. Unless people are honest about where and how we disagree with each other, we’ll never be able to determine if there are grounds upon which we can successfully work together.
But all in all, things would probably be nicer around here if we came to a consensus on giving Mal de Mer the annie angel treatment – ignore the holy fuck out of it until it gets bored and goes away.
“I’m going to do what I can to get my country back on track.” – Mikey
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA….that was perfect.
You didn’t even mention the giant robotic killer bees Hugo Chavez has been perfecting in the ‘Zuela!
If you’re going to talk about the colonialism in Hawaii, you might mention that it wasn’t the American government that took over Hawaii, but the businessmen like Dole and his posse. They were the ones that enforced the bayonet Constitution of 1876 and it was them with the Honolulu Riflemen that overthrew Queen Liliuokalani, despite a minor role played by the US. And the president at the time, one Grover Cleveland, disapproved of the whole thing and refused to annex Hawaii, which is why it was under the control of Dole and his cronies as the “Republic of Hawaii” for 5 years (1893-98).
By the way, ask anyone on the islands these days what they think of the Hawaiian sovereignty movement, and you will get a lot of “yeah, go Hawaiian sovereignty! but, ya know…”
1996 Year of the Hawaiian sounds like heaven
But what does that make 1997?
They keep lying, we keep dying
Every year should be the Year of the Hawaiian
-Sudden Rush, “True Hawaiian”
Colonial thugs with their Bible and drugs
Snitches, dopers, religious interlopers,
The mission to seize secure, ka aina pa’a i ka native pure
Cultures trampled, intellectual examples
Righteousness brought, the European thought
We couldn’t touch it
……….
We still recovering, colonial discovering
Steal the soul of the man, you steal the life of the land
American sugar, pilgrim descendants
Broke the tribal law of their own Ten Commandments
Thou shall not lie, thou shall not steal
From peaceful friendly nations
Whose gods are real – Touch that.
– Big Island Conspiracy “In Fla Grande Delicto”
By the way, Jillian, if you are going to speak for an entire people, you could at least have the common courtesy to spell haole right.
Haole bitch.
MAKE LOVE NOT WAR.