Pastor Swank = The Best Friend The Jews Have Ever Had
‘LET HIS BLOOD BE ON US AND OUR CHILDREN’
J. Grant Swank, Jr.
Why have Jews suffered especially since the first century?
They killed God in Christ. And in doing that, they publicly cried out :�Let His blood be on us and our children.�
Say, does this count as anti-Semitism? I mean, sure, he hasn’t accused anyone of being a neoconservative yet, but this strikes me as pretty bad all the same.
So it has occurred. After all, one does not crucify God incarnate lightly.
You don’t say.
But what about the Roman soldiers who likewise had a part in the crucifixion? They did not cry out: “Let His blood be on us and our children.� That is the crucial difference.
To summarize the pastor’s theological argument: it’s OK to crucify Christ as long as you don’t take personal responsibility for it.
Jesus came unto His own and His own received Him not. In other words, God’s love throughout the Old Testament period culminated in His own identity revealed in the lowly Carpenter of Nazareth. The same hateful, disobedient children of Israel of the Old Testament continued their turning away from God incarnate.
Now there have been Christians so-called who have tried to muffle this truth.
That’s because they’re trying to trick the Jews into thinking they’re the bestest of friends, so they can send them all over to Israel, have them kick out the Palestinians, and bring on the Rapture. C’mon, Pastor Swank! Get with the program!
They have tried to wipe out the Jews’ cry at the crucifixion scene. When Mel Gibson filmed “The Passion of the Christ,� he was told in no uncertain terms not to emphasize that Jewish cry in the movie.
Why should history be rewritten? Why should holy history — divine revelation in the
Scriptures — be tampered with? It should not unless one wants to pay the awful consequences of suffering God’s wrath. The Bible states that one must not take away from nor add to it. Yet there are those who have tried to do just that. There have been those who have attempted to do just that in the name of “Christian love and understanding, cordiality toward the Jewish community and ‘being ecumenical.’�
Remember, this is coming from the same man who writes obsessively about hateful passages in the Koran.
What positively can be gained by suffering? There are many good lessons learned by suffering.
For instance, when the Jews suffer for the last two thousand years-plus, it is permitted by their own God disclaimed. Why does God permit this? Because every time Jews suffer for their ancestors’ hatred against Christ, Jews of every era are reminded to turn from their spiritual void to Christ as Savior.
It’s called “tough love,” Jiz-ewz. Get used to it. And besides, y’all have the choice of ending the suffering if y’all just converted to JEEEEEEEEE-ZUS-SAAAAAAAAH!!!!
Suffering is healthy when regarded as a lesson teacher. However, more times than not we would rather not learn lessons via suffering. We would choose to learn lessons from a pleasant journey. But life is not all pleasant.
Therefore, why do Jews suffer?
One: because their ancestors cried out, “Let His blood be on us and on our children.� Two: because suffering hopefully will squeeze them into the position by which they will recognize their loss.
Y’know, I think this is the first time I’ve ever heard someone suggest that the Holocaust was just a clever ploy by God to get the Jews to convert to Christianity. But hey, that’s Pastor Swank for you: always breaking whole new ground in the wingnuttery game.
“Suffering is healthy when regarded as a lesson teacher. However, more times than not we would rather not learn lessons via suffering. We would choose to learn lessons from a pleasant journey. But life is not all pleasant.
Therefore, why do Jews suffer? ”
You want it should be easy maybe?
Ah the healthy suffering. Lesson teachers therefore!
Pat Robertson’s Christian Coalition tried the same gambit. It was their way of getting out from under the anti-Semitic reputation they’d earned for doing things like backing David Duke’s run for governor.
He forgot the sins-of-the-fathers caveat. One could be the a perfectly devote christian, but if you had one jewish grandparent the Nazis didn’t care.
So God didn’t want Jesus to die for our sins? He wanted him to live to a ripe old age and pass away due to natural causes? The crucifixtion has absolutely no symbolic value whatsoever?
Wow. The pastor teaches new and interesting thoughts.
If Jesus wasn’t crucified, Swanky, one of the cornerstones of your entire religion would be gone. You should thank the Jews and Romans for crucifying Jesus!
Jeez. I knew Swank was an idiot, but this idiocy – in the field where he is supposedly “qualified” to speak as a “pastor” – is perhaps his nadir.
Yes, some of the Jews did say “Let his blood be upon us, and on our children,” but there is no indication in Scripture that God granted them this famous-last-words request. Swank ought to know, too, that it goes against every New Testament principle to suggest that people can bear the guilt for someone else’s sins.
So God didn’t want Jesus to die for our sins? He wanted him to live to a ripe old age and pass away due to natural causes? The crucifixtion has absolutely no symbolic value whatsoever?
Well, there is a school of thought (among the premillennialists, of whom Swank probably is one) that God established the church as a stopgap measure when the Jews “unexpectedly” rejected Christ, and that when Christ returns He will set up the earthly kingdom He was supposed to have done the first time.
I find that view preposterous, unbiblical, and blasphemous. But it’s believed by lots and lots of “Christians,” and I’d bet Swank is one of them.
So back in the day according to one story retold a 50 or 60 years later by a guy who heard it from another guy, as translated from an incomplete manuscript from Aramaic, and then to Greek and then to Latin and then to English as spoken in the 1600s, a handful of people said, “Whatever…” about the Romans executing a guy. And because of that, 2000 years later, the world is gonna end.
Uh uh.
Add that to the list of reasons I’m not a believer.
A Swanky Jewish plea for suffering:
Squeeze us to Jesus!
The good pastor is being a bit obtuse here. Just because the Jews called out “Let His blood be on us and our childrenâ€? doesn’t mean that God took them up on their offer. I can’t come up with the scripture at the moment, but I believe that there’s a verse in the New Testament that says that God doesn’t punish children for the sins of their fathers.
So the logical extension of “Pastor” Swank’s argument is that the Holocaust happened because the “Great-Great-Great-Great-Great-Great- . . . -Great Grandparents of the victims said something that pissed God off for 2000 years.
OK.
My guess is that Swank wonders about why America and the World is swaying away from God’s Truth. Then he says stuff like this. Gee, with theology like this, I can’t understand why everybody isn’t a believer.
Yeesh. After reading this, I feel compelled as a Christian to apologise to um, everyone.
When you say Holocaust, Swank hears holy cause. And when you say pogrom, Swank hears program, as in God’s program for the Jews.
Meanwhile, back in the real world.
Also didn’t Jesus’ “forgive them father for they know not what they do” while he was up on the cross cleanse the blood guilt of the Jews?
I find it theologically inconsistent for the God of the risen Christ to carry an old testament grudge against a people after Christ has risen. Yes I know the God of the old testament is the same God today, however the resurection of Christ does change Gods relationship with mankind, so I find the whole “guilt of the Jews” idea theologically suspect.
Pope John Paul the 2nd had a whole thing on this and why jew hatred is incompatible with Christianity. I am not a big Rome lover but I think in this case the guy was on solid ground.
My usual line on this idiotic reasoning is that
a) if the Jews killed Jesus, they didn’t do a very good job of it;
b) He got over it. Why can’t everyone else? It’s not like He rose from the tomb and declared that the race be exterminated. He was one of them, after all; and
c) Anyone who knows their Biblical history knows that the Jews in charge were just a puppet government installed by the occupying Romans who had them in their pocket. Sound familiar?
I have never understood “they killed Jesus” as a reason for anti-semitism. I mean he got better right?
Even if Jesus were a grudge holder, and the clearly messianic verses of Ezekiel are ignored, the old testament says the sins of the fathers are visited only up to the third or forth generation. Which period ended, what, over 19 centuries ago?
Jesus was a nice Jewish boy who wanted some reform. Seemed big money was involved in temple business, and religion was meshing nastily with politics. From everything I’ve read of the New Testament, he wasn’t too thrilled with hypocrisy, nor was he a big fan of the social safety net and health care system of his day. He didn’t go down to the Temple and perform the miracle of the loaves and fishes for the fat cats and money changers. You know, if Jesus were to show up now, wouldn’t he be inclined to kick Pat Robertson’s ass, not to mention Wanky Swanky’s? WWJD?
Suffering is healthy when regarded as a lesson teacher.
Let’s see: regularly assaulted by brownshirt mobs … herded into disease-ridden ghettos … rounded up and forced into train cars with no food and water … starved and worked to death in concentration camps … and, the icing on the cake for whoever managed to survive all that – gassed to death and burned in mass graves!
Sounds like a healthy spiritual lesson to me! And a small price to pay for salvation for 8 million or so corpses!
Pastor Swank, bringing the inanity of evil to a pulpit near you.
I’m waiting with bated breath for Charles Johnson and the LGF crew to howl in protest over this blatant bit of Jew-hatred.
*crickets chirping*
Oh, wait…NEVERMIND! Wrong religion! It’s OK-dokey if you’re fascism is of the Jeebo- variety.
Pamela, how about you? Any comments? Michelle?
*sound of wind whistling through bare branches, a train whistle in the distance…*
I can’t even be snarky about this anymore. Swank is a complete fucking asshole of a bullying halfwit. If suffering is such a great teacher, perhaps we could nail his dick to a wall and see if he learns anything.
What the hell church does this guy belong to, and why haven’t they defrocked him yet? He’s the Father Coughlin of the neocon age.
“Squeeze us to Jesus!”
Phrase of the day!!
I never understood exactly why God favored Jesus Munchers over Jesus Killers, but then He isn’t exactly consistent. I think being prone to tantrum-driven torture campaigns can do that to a deity.
And Swanks grammar…I really want to believe he accidently dropped the final draft in the shredder and was in to much of a hurry to do a rewrite, so just pasted the shreds to beat a deadline, but I know, sadly…
Crikey! God, Allah, Jesus, Thor, Zeus, Cthulu, Flying Spaghetti Monster. You say potato, I say dogma. It’s like grownups playing with action figures and Pokemon. Gotta keep your mythologies straight. Oh, and by the way, mine’s right and yours is so wrong my omnipotent invisible superhero is gonna punish you for even thinking you omnipotent invisible superhero is real. Jeez, this is kind of embarassing…
mikey
er…that should be “too much”
I’ve never understood why the christians are so pissed off at the jews for this anyway. I mean if Jesus doesn’t get crucified there’s no cult of the martyr, no christianity.
If the jews didn’t kill jesus the good pastor would be unemployed, or muslim, or something….
D.Sidhe, I’ll admit to wondering what kind of suffering one could inflict upon the Swankster in order to teach him a lesson also.
You know, in the Catholic church I grew up in, the whole “let his blood be on us” thing was taken as “we who are sinners bear responsibility for this” not “Nasty Jews!”
Heretics, I guess.
For instance, when the Jews suffer for the last two thousand years-plus, it is permitted by their own God disclaimed.
Ouch. I think the syntax in that sentence killed Jesus all by itself.
You know, the only time I wish there were any truth to the Bible is so that when Jeebus came floating back down trailing clouds of glory, he could kick the asses of these people, who claim to be his followers yet understand nothing about love.
g:
what can i add to that? even on this comment thread people treat this bullshit seriously. it’s a fucking joke. i’m a harsher person than g, i guess, but if you can actually discuss as if it were real some 2000 year old telephone game story, you are an idiot. sorry. it is what it is. the jesus creation myth isn’t even original–there were many other made up stories kicking around back then that had a resurrection and a son of god aspect.
fiction. you all are arguing about fiction. you know, i really think that case, at the end of neuromancer, has discovered an AI, not an alien, even though gibson leaves it open-ended. but, under no circumstances, will i universal claims of truth based on my interpretation. see, that would be fucking stupid. i’d have to be an idiot. and that shit was written 20 years (oy, i’m getting old.)
it wasn’t some silly story from 2000 years ago. and the new testament, in the guise of leviticus, is quite clearly as hateful as the koran or the old testament. hateful, as in filled with hatred and rage. but please, do bicker on as if your interpretation of some specious wankery is better than pastor swank’s. trust me, it’s a tie for last place.
BRAINS!
Let’s be honest. Swank Christians don’t believe in the teachings of Christ, just the image. “Live and let live” becomes “convert or kill” and “give Caeser his due” becomes “force religion into the government.” The fact is that they coopted the liberal rantings of a socialist thirty-something and turned it into a lock-step cult.
The religious wingnuts occassionally reveal their true feelings, but breaking the code of silence vis a vis Jews is still a faux pas.
These days, it’s hard get the warrior class of wingnuts to reveal their true feelings. They consider themselves allies of Israel as long as Israel uses big guns and tanks to kill brown people (Muslims are a plus). I’m simplifying, but those particular wingnuts identify the military actions of Israel as embodying the will of all Jews. They are a convenient ally.
Arr…send ’em down to tha bloomin depths of Davey Jones locker…Arr…
Religion is surely a force for good in the world. The Pope goes stupid on hatin’ Islamicism, the Muslims prove him right about the whole temper thing, the Jews believe God told them they own a parched piece of land, the Arabs scream that their God (Allah and/or Jesus variety) said the same thing (well, that and the actual legal deed to the land), the Hindus don’t exactly give it up for the monotheists either — and they were the ones who killed Gandhi because he was too tolerant.
Such a force for righteousness this dogma fixation.
You know, Robert, it’s all debate method. Some folks call the underlying axioms into question, some folks show how even if the axioms are accepted the opponent’s conclusion is still falacious. Poor little Swanky’s “logic” gets it up the jacksie either way.
Stupid Jews. No matter how many of them are made to suffer by Christians, they still don’t get the message of Christianity and convert.
/sarcasm
So back in the day according to one story retold a 50 or 60 years later by a guy who heard it from another guy, as translated from an incomplete manuscript from Aramaic, and then to Greek and then to Latin and then to English as spoken in the 1600s
Actually, most modern editions (see especially the NRSV; to a lesser extent most versions made after the 19th century) go back to the original greek from manuscripts dating from AD 100-299, and very rarely use manuscripts from after the reign of the emperor Constantine.
For a good discussion of this, please read The Text of the New Testament by Bruce Metzger and Bart D. Ehrman. (Ehrman is a frequent interviewee on Fresh Air with Terry Gross, so I’m not sending you to a fundie)
And the quote is found in only one gospel–the gospel of Matthew, which was probably the second-to-last to be written, at a time when Jewish-Christian relations were very bad. All of the other gospels mention the same events leading up to the crucifixion, but none of the others have that quote.
“but I believe that there’s a verse in the New Testament that says that God doesn’t punish children for the sins of their fathers.”
Of course there is, but there is at least one in the OT that explicitly says he does precisely that. Just another internal Biblical contradition.
Apart from all the other questions raised here, this view always leaves one big thing out: if the Jewish people suffered because of their treatment of Jesus, why did they suffer before Jesus came along? Because God in his great and above human maturity knew that *one day* some Jewish people might mistreat a guy who claimed to be the Son of God?
Robert,
the new testament, in the guise of leviticus, is quite clearly as hateful as the koran or the old testament
Leviticus is in the Old Testament.
As tigirmus said, it’s a debate style. In various karate styles, one counters the opponent’s force with greater force generated through technique and strength training. In aikido, one blends with the opponent and takes control over his force, directing it as one sees fit. In sad-li-no-fu, one counters the opponent’s force with mockery and satire; in this sense, Swank provides an excellent snark-dummy to practice on.
Apart from all the other questions raised here, this view always leaves one big thing out: if the Jewish people suffered because of their treatment of Jesus, why did they suffer before Jesus came along?
I’ll handle this one. From the Hebrew Scriptures:
For now I am calling all the tribes of the kingdoms of the north, says the Lord; and they shall come and all of them shall set their thrones at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, against all its surrounding walls and against all the cities of Judah. And I will utter my judgements against them, for all their wickedness in forsaking me; they have made offerings to other gods, and worshipped the works of their own hands. (Jeremiah 15f)
So, according to the Jews, it was the portion of the Israelites who were worshipping other gods.
Boy, that magic word they is more useful than WD-40, huh? A bunch of Jews supposedly shouted something while killing Christ, so now THEY are all guilty of killing Christ, and we Kuh-rishchuns get to look down on them all for being, not just theologically incorrect, but also murderers. How convenient.
Oh, and — “it is permitted by their own God disclaimed”? The hell?
I think if we have all learned one thing over the past five years, it’s that wingnuts actually believe that treating people badly will make them want to join them, rather than struggle against them. I can’t understand it, but that is what they think.
As others mentioned: no crucifixion, no dying for the sins of mankind. Therefore, no salvation for anyone. But then again, if Jesus rose from the dead, it really wasn’t a sacrifice anyway. Staying dead, that’d hve been a sacrifice.
Some comedian once said that Jesus just had a really bad weekend.
“The Bible states that one must not take away from nor add to it. Yet there are those who have tried to do just that.”
Yeah, fucking apostles. What cunts, eh, Pastor?
Kathleen, I think they believe in control through fear. They know it works because this is why many of them joined the church: not so much through positive faith, hope, or love, but fear of the consequences of not believing.
Shield and Standard
The Aryan Nations Shield
Its Very Meaning Is What the Jews Hate!
1. THE CROWN: The symbol of our Father’s complete and Immutable sovereignty over all things, the one and only God. whose name is YAHWEH.
2. THE THREE JEWELS: Of the Crown symbolize the Divine and complete perfection of the Triune absolute of our Father the Everliving God. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.
3. THE SHIELD: A symbol of our Christian Faith and trust in His perfect Law and Covenants He made to them that keep the faith.
4. THE TWO-EDGED SWORD: A symbol of truth and proceeds forth solely from Him and shall by His Divine sovereign will, be the instrument of His vengeance upon all that hate Him.
5. THE REVOLVING RESURRECTION CROSS: Centered on the Sword of Truth, symbolizing the returning to righteousness of our Race, who yet one day will be placed on the right hand of Christ in faith of the sure promise of resurrection.
6. THE CROSS of JACOB: Symbolizing the blessings to Israel centers on the Sword of Truth and Resurrection Cross. The Three bars on each of the four corners symbolize the Twelve Tribes of His Racial Nations; inheritance in His Kingdom.
7. THE SQUARE: Outline symbolizes the Divinely appointed four-square formation and order commanded by YAHWEH of Hosts for the armies of the tribes of Israel in the beginning as His Nation and the symbol of the four-square city of His new Jerusalem with twelve gates for the tribes of Israel, the Adamic Aryan Race of God.
They’re Baa-ack.
I see white people.
But hey, if they have another observation on the composition of my body parts again, then okie doke. That whole dental floss thing yesterday really cracked me up…
mikey
Do you think these guys might have just gotten ahold of some really, really bad acid? Because that raving makes absolutely no sense. Pastor Swank seems like a Jesuit compared to Mr. tttAlienaridbrainnation above.
You know, if these assholes are going to heaven, who would want to go there? The angels would be packing up, muttering to each other, “There goes the neighborhood.”
Did you know Hermann Goering was said to be “a type of transvestite” and Rudolf Hess was apparently called Fräulein Anna? Some even believe Hitler was a homosexual prostitute in Vienna.
fiction. you all are arguing about fiction.
Well, yes, and if everyone understood that, it would be a good argument. Good fiction is just as true as, if not more true than, nonfiction — if by “true” we mean that it offers meaningful characters, plotlines, settings, etc. meant to be taken metaphorically and applied thematically to the universal experiences of living humans. In this way the bible (or at least several of its books) is no less valuable than, say, The Iliad. My primary objection to exchanges of the sort in this thread is that even those of us who understand about fiction tend to respond to the literalists on their own terms instead of placing the argument in its proper literary context. In this way we allow them to hijack the conversation every damn time and increase the general stupidity level of our culture.
And all this time I believe Morrissey:
You just haven’t earned it yet, baby. You must suffer and cry for a longer time.
Thanks Pastor Swank!
Well, who the fuck hasn’t dreamed of being “a homosexual prostitute in Vienna?”
Is that any reason to be hating on Adolf? Sheesh, at least he wasn’t a Christ-killing,
filthy Jew.
Aw, anon, don’t be a sour kraut, it was just a little knock to get on our aryan nation brat’s wurst side.
I’m sorry. It’s just that I get so darned upset when I have to read all this stuff about ‘the Jews this’ and ‘the Jews that.’ I don’t know how why everyone can’t just accept Jesus as his personal savior, vote Republican, and shut the fuck up.
You know, it’s because you aren’t clap^H^H^H^Hpraying hard enough. You just stay inside, get off the internets, and pray your pea-pickin’ little heart out from now on, it’s bound to happen!
They have tried to wipe out the Jews’ cry at the crucifixion scene.
“They” in this case being the authors of the Gospels of John, Luke and Mark who don’t mention jack-all about this exchange.
The Bible states that one must not take away from nor add to it.
Yet this entire screed is based on an OBVIOUS late addition meant to curry favor with the Romans who, by the time Matthew was compiled, were the prime object of Christian proslytization.
Gad! This is what I get for actually reading the damned book… and the apocrypha.
History?! I do not think that word means what his Swankiness thinks it means. Sheesh.
5. THE REVOLVING RESURRECTION CROSS: Offers a spectacular view of downtown New Zion, as well as the finest in Aryan cuisine. Discounts for AAA, AARP, & KKK. $$–$$$.
Never mind that most of the Bible was written hundreds of years after the notional time in question, or that a self-selected cabal of “theologians” selectively edited the damn thing, putting in what they felt was worthy and leaving out what they decided was not. And then King James decided he’d edit it some more.
Does nobody watch the History Channel?
My thought on Biblical accuracy: Scholars can’t even bloody agree on what Shakespeare wrote, and that was one guy, from less than 500 years ago, and in English.
Cripes! This just made me realize something! If suffering = teaching, and Shrubby’s “harsh interrogation techniques (a.k.a. ‘torture’)” cause suffering… then teh Chimp-In-Chief is edumocating teh enemy!! They’ll be teh most learned tar’rists evah!!
Why does teh Preznit hate Amurikkka?
The Bible states that one must not take away from nor add to it.
Well, yes, it does say that … in Deuteronomy. Which means the entire so-called “New Testament” is invalid.
Back to you, Pastor….
‘…should holy history — divine revelation in the Scriptures — be tampered with?�
Well of course not! Except for all the shit that Augustine and the Council of Nicea threw out because it didn’t jibe with their VERSION of Mr. J. and all the other stuff, “God’s Revelation,� that was thrown out because somebody took exception of some sort to it, somewhere down the centuries, that no one even knows about.
and all the shit that was really good shit but nobody knew it existed back in the 1st and 2nd and 3rd etc. centuries C.E. because it was dry-rotting in a cave somewhere in the Middle East or had been burned in one of the many sackings of great library repositories.
Oh, THAT version of the Bible. Um, sorry. Out of print.
But there’s no doubt in their minds they’ve got the “real� bible, just as God intended.
Shield and Standard
The Aryan Nations Shield
Its Very Meaning Is What the Jews Hate!
This fuckstick is for real?? I read this demented drivel and took it for reductio ad absurdum satire.
Gotta love that “Adamic Aryan Race of God” crack-fueled brainfart, though.
It does show the real face of the modern Republican base…
I think if we have all learned one thing over the past five years, it’s that wingnuts actually believe that treating people badly will make them want to join them, rather than struggle against them. I can’t understand it, but that is what they think.
Actually, it does work with some people. The working class poor, for example. And the Log Cabin Republicans.
Yeah, fucking weirdo transvestite is what he was.
Executive transvestite, weirdo transvestite. Little bit of a crowbar separation, thank you.
So “let his blood be on us” is, like, the ancient equivalent of “Bring it, bitch”?
*hides hammer and nails behind his back* What? I wasn’t doin’ nuthin’. Just killin’… time. Hey, so I was bored!
Wow! To read such raw, unbridled anti-Semitism is almost refreshing. It’s much better when these fuckers show their true colors, rather than smiling and shaking hands with Jews while holding knives left-handed behind their backs. “Gee, lets all kill each other over some silly crap written millenia ago. The heck with medieval, let’s get Old Testament on their asses!”
If God really wanted to punish the Jews for the death of Christ, couldn’t he have done it himself? Once again, the reich-wing nutjobs are calling God lazy and stupid.
Never mind that most of the Bible was written hundreds of years after the notional time in question
Actually, not. We have fragments of the gospels (p^4, p^64, p^67) going back to the late 2nd century (100-199 AD), large portions of the Pauline epistles (p^46) from c.200, portions of Revelation (p^47) from the middle of the 3rd c., a fragment from John (p^52)–the last gospel to be written–from the first half of the 2nd c. (100-150), a quire with most of John (p^66; 1.1-6.11, 6.35-14.15) dating from 200, portions of some Catholic epistles (i.e. not Pauline, p^72) from the 3rd c., a fairly complete copy of Luke and John (p^75) from 175-225, a few 4th c. copies of the entire New Testament (aleph, B, W (could be 5th c))
(since Luke was based on Mark, we can place the date of Mark prior to 225)
or that a self-selected cabal of “theologians” selectively edited the damn thing, putting in what they felt was worthy and leaving out what they decided was not.
OK. This is more or less true. Thank you for using cabal without immediately following it with “of Jews.”
And then King James decided he’d edit it some more.
Don’t get me started on King James. His version was pretty crappy, due in no small part to King James, but blame must also rest with Erasmus, Jerome, and Constantine.
In the immortal words of Lenny Bruce:
“Why do you keep breaking our balls for this crime?
” ‘Why, Jew, because you skirt the issue. You blame it on Roman soldiers.’
“All right. I’ll clear the air once and for all, and confess. Yes. we did it. I did it, my family. I found a note in my basement. It said:
” ‘We killed him. Signed, Morty.’
“And a lot of people say to me: ‘Why did you kill Christ?’
” ‘I dunno…it was one of those parties, got out of hand, you know.’ “
I blame the crack suicide squads, personally.
Why did the Jews kill Jesus?
He wouldn’t answer the questions they asked him through “alternative interrogation techniques”; they had to kill him to protect ‘Merka!
Andrew: All the bits you mention from late 2nd century on up: Sounds like “hundreds of years” to me. Doesn’t mean it has to be many, many hundreds of years.
Jillian: Wrong Messiah. But you can’t be blamed; even the Three Wise Men didn’t get it right the first time.
Jillian: Oh, one exception. I’m quite sure Pastor Swank could find a way to blame you regardless.
Well, I am a Jew, technically speaking.
Jewish mother, attended synagogue as a wee lass, the whole spiel.
And the fact that I’m a bitchy atheist at this point probably doesn’t get me any slack with the blood-libel crowd.
It’s funny to hear such classic old school anti-Semitism coming out of Swank…he’s always been crazy, but crazy in his own cool way. This sort of stuff is just trite hackery – it’s been old since the nineteenth century.
All the bits you mention from late 2nd century on up: Sounds like “hundreds of years” to me. Doesn’t mean it has to be many, many hundreds of years.
You can’t get away with calling it “hundreds of years” until at least 200 years have passed. That would be 233, which is the middle of the third century AD.
Most of the sources that I cited are from before the third century.
And I argue that if you’re going to use an indeterminate number of hundreds, it ought to be at least three, probably four.
Read your fucking Bible, Swank, you antisemitic moron: Ezekial 18. A little disturbing that an atheist like me knows the scripture better than you, don’t you think?
Gotta love that “Adamic Aryan Race of God� crack-fueled brainfart, though.
It does show the real face of the modern Republican base…
I figured it for sarcasm as well, just look at the initials…
ARGH!
Check it out, nazi pirates. I hate nazi pirates.
as for the history of the writing of the new testament, I really like the theory laid out in Earl Doherty’s “The Jesus Puzzle” He includes all the other “pagan” mystery religions which preceded Christianity, and discusses when the books of the New Testament were written.
Richard Friedman’s “Who wrote the Bible” is a great source for information on when and why the old testament was written.
According to Doherty, the first gospel written was Mark circa 70-95 CE, followed by Luke and then Matthew. But Paul was the first Christian writer (pre Jewish wars of 66-70CE) writing in the 4th and 5th decades of that century.
It is interesting to note concerning Paul’s writings, that he never mentions “Jesus of Nazareth”, the life of Jesus in Galilee and Jerusalem, or any teachings of Jesus. He only preaches about his death and resurrection (and places in using a veiled reference in Corinthians — I forget which epistle to the Corinthians as happening in the third heaven.)
Notice also, that the later the gospel was written, the more absurd the miracles and events become. In Mark, no resurrection, no ascension, only word that the tomb is empty. (later additions to MArk include this story) Then Luke adds to the story, some more miracles and more information on the resurrection. Then we get Matthew, which speaks of earthquakes and the dead all rising from the graves (not just Jesus).
Anyway, I’ve gone on long enough.
Of course, D. Sidhe, nailing Swank’s dick to a wall would only require a pushpin.
A little disturbing that an atheist like me knows the scripture better than you, don’t you think?
Not at all. I’ve found that pretty much all the conversant experts in comparitive religion are atheists. We are required to know more crap about more religions than any truly religious person…
mikey
“Hey Peter! I can see your house from here!”
I miss Sam.
When Chief Joseph of the Nez Pierce was finally forced to the reservation, he stated he did not want missionaries on the rez because “It would teach my people to argue about God”. I just hope there is something left after you all destroy yourself – the First Nations will still be here to pick among the wreckage.
Always important to remember that Paul never met the Man Jesus, say thankya.
upthread a ways, Robert was gracious enough to cite my earlier post, but I want to make it clear, for emphasis. The Bible, wonderful literature that it is, is nevertheless in terms of a Document to Live One’s Life By is about on par with my 9 year old son narrating his remembrance of a really great Ren and Stimpy cartoon he saw back when he was 7, as filtered thru the reminisces of his friends who also saw it and his parents who laughed at it because they understood the “grown-up” references that he didn’t get.
I mean — I belive Jesus existed. But in the centuries immediately following his life and death, a whole bunch of people told a whole bunch of stories; all those people had their own agendae and interpretations; some of those people wrote the stories down, and then from among all those many stories, only some were selected, while others were rejected for political reasons; then they were translated, badly, and then retranslated, and then even the English words they were finally translated into is now an archaic dialect that needs as many footnotes as a Shakespeare play so that we can understand what it means — I mean, are we fuckin’ crazy in this country????????? We’ve got people who live and die by simple sentances in this fucking document that is so totally unreliable??
I mean, it’s like I would be living my life according to what I could remember from a story I once heard in a bar from a guy a couple of stools down who was saying “I remember once I heard this story from this guy…??”
And this is a religion?
According to Doherty, the first gospel written was Mark circa 70-95 CE
95 is a little late. The book of Revelation was only written between 95 and 96, and it was probably written fairly late. It’s been a while since I read it, but I think that there are some references to the gospels, so Revelation was probably written by someone who had a copy of at least one of the gospels, meaning that Mark had to have been written well before it. Most (credible) dates for Mark are 68-75.
There are some early dates based on a misinterpretation of 7Q5 and early traditions that give it a date of 40-60. So I’m not giving you a date endorsed by nutjobs.
then they were translated, badly, and then retranslated, and then even the English words they were finally translated into is now an archaic dialect that needs as many footnotes as a Shakespeare play
As I said above, most translations since the 19th century are not based on older translations, but rather on second to fourth century greek manuscripts.
When you realize just how many of these biblical literalists are actually out there, who wouldn’t have predicted Trekkie conventions?
Did you know Hermann Goering was said to be “a type of transvestite� and Rudolf Hess was apparently called Fräulein Anna? Some even believe Hitler was a homosexual prostitute in Vienna.
Check out “The Hidden Hitler” by University of Bremen professor Lothar Machtan. Fantastic book!
(Hint: how many fascist dicatators do you know who wore their hair long, loved opera, had their own private homosexual army, and had lived for years at one of Vienna’s most famous gay men’s hostel?)
Andrew,
I’m not saying that Mark was written in 95CE, I am saying that according to Doherty, the absolute latest it could have been written and still fit in with the dating of the other gospels (and acts and non-pauline epistles, and revelation) was 95CE. I tend to trust the period of 70-75 CE as the most likely. That gives plenty of time for the authors of luke and matthew to make their adjustments and embellishments. I also hold a lot of credence with the (evedenciary backed) theory that the book of the acts of the apostles was the last written book of the NT, and was written in the last half of the second century — mainly as a stopgap to include all the “miracles” of the apostles and the exposition needed to draw Paul out of the gnostic circles and into the literal Jesus camp being pushed via the gospels.
Jesus came to earth to die for our sins……….this was no mistake.it is not trivial who killed jesus, but he upset the people of that time.he refers to the religious leaders of the day as dogs, serpents,etc. it made them mad.if Jesus came on the scene today, he would die faster because people are evil. Jesus came for everyone!!!!after 2,000 years let the jews off the hook already…it’s turn or burn, tell people about Jesus and not your opinions………i’m glad the Jews killed Jesus.i needed a savior from my sins and they did me a big favor!!! and Jesus’ death is way played up in movies and whatnot…….he rose again. the jews did not kill Jesus, he rose from the dead. so, Jesus ain’t dead. he lives!! so, lay off the jews, they have many foes…they do not need you!!!! they need Jesus!!! If the Jews are so evil………why do piles of their bodies keep showing up? i wonder….and doesn’t the book of Revelation have the nations gathered against Isreal?……..and then what happens? God bless you, just my opinion as a person who is Christian and part jew. mel gibson says all non-catholics are going to hell………….serve God, not man…..bye
well, i didn’t scroll on down………lots of talk on here…..i don’t know where i fit into this….ah, i’m a biblical literalist. actually, the bible is way more resourceful on numerous subjects, science, law, you see “the wages of sin is death” you are going to earn a payment for the way you lived your life////////////////////i find most non-believers can be lumped into several basic piles……….1..the true non-believer, this is a person i like to talk with, someone who doesn’t like a bunch of tall-tales, stimulating folks. 2. kind of sorta religious people, most christians, no different than the world around them….they might be shocked to find when they die, they are judged with the world.3.bible-bashers…seem to want answers, best convert is a strong non-believer.it allows you to see how God changed your life from how you used to be………… i would advise skeptics to avoid christian protesters, gay-bashers,other scornful christian and religious types………..Jesus loves you just as you are right this moment, but he can’t leave you that way, because he loves you, he must improve you….purge out old attitudes and show you God’s love……….the biggest enemy of the church is christians today….you got to show people love and let them see that God cares………..if no one else will listen to me but one person………..let me tell you Jesus will save you and just believe and read the Bible and don’t get caught up in debates and fighting…………………….no where in the Bible does a man stand before God saying i don’t believe, i just can’t figure this out, blah blah////////////these men fell on their faces, and said “don’t kill me” i really feel sad that when the world meets king Jesus…..he might not be the mellow hippie you imagine…………..
i just ran into this site, won’t be back….ever notice some of these preacher names..swank? lol…….anyway, take care, robert
Here’s the thing: Would Jesus actually be Jesus if he wasn’t killed for the sins of mankind? If God’s going to send his son as a physical manifestation so that he can be killed to save humanity from their sins, and if it’s predestined that he will, in fact, die, otherwise the entire thing is rather pointless, then why curse the Jews for the rest of time? All they did was fulfill the prophecy that God had apparently intended from the very beginning.
If anything, Christians should be THANKING the Jews for giving them their precious messiah.