OMG. I’m so sorry, Mal de Mer.

But wait. The American media never told me this. It can’t possibly be true.

My condolences, MdM.

So sorry, Mal de Mer.
I have a bad feeling we’re going to see more.

Mal de Mer:

I’m so very sorry for your loss. Please know that I will be keeping you and your family in my (pagan) prayers.

You have my deepest sympathy, Mal de Mer; and for your family. Words fail.

How bloody awful.

I’m very sorry for your loss, Mal de Mer.
Alan

I’m so sorry to hear of your loss, Mal. Take care in this rough time.

I wish I could do more than just say I’m sorry, Mal de Mer. You and your family will be in my thoughts today.

My condolences. I hope you and your family can find solace somehow.

Gavin, this is the incident that led to the provocation that allowed the invasion of Gaza. The incident that allowed the invasion of Lebanon was the kidnapping of 2 Israeli soldiers and the killing of their companions on patrol, by Hezbollah. That was either an opportunistic attempt to take advantage of the Gaza situation, or something else, depending on who you read. But the post here implies that Israel is the “initial” instigator of all this violence, the kidnappings of its soldiers in Galilee are its own fault, and the attack on Lebanon is thus illegitimate. That’s wrong.

Condolences to Mal de Mer.

^feh^

“This is America, which makes you the Prince of absolutely fucking nobody.”

Amen.

The incident that allowed the invasion of Lebanon was the kidnapping of 2 Israeli soldiers and the killing of their companions on patrol, by Hezbollah.

That’s why people don’t like to talk about Israel — because someone always comes along to justify the latest atrocity, and then someone else generally shows up making nasty remarks about Jews (as in an earlier thread).

The latest Israeli attack on Lebanon is quite likely an attempt to seize territory and water resources, and was certainly planned long before Hezbollah ambushed that army patrol. One would think that people on the reflexively pro-Israeli side of things would prefer that halfway sensible narrative to the ‘Israel has gone fucking nuts’ narrative that’s now the official story, but life is full of puzzles.

I’m sorry Mal for your loss. I hope that this is the only site you visit, as some of the other sites would be very upsetting and give you more reason to hate Americans. I haven’t seen you on some of the other boards where the Israel shills are really prominent, for which I’m thankful. You don’t need to see that shit. I would recommend Billmon however – good articles on the conflict, and no comments so no trolls.
Again, I’m sorry for you and your family. Hopefully this insane conflict ends before your wife loses someone else close to her.

Sorry MdM. Very sad.

The Kung Fu Monkey link was incredible too. Follow it if you haven’t.

Condolences to Mal de Mer. Your lively commenting here is always a joy to read. May your family regroup from its losses and find strength from the persistent if frustrating efforts of many, many, many sane people in the world to oppose the stupidity of war.

Brooksfoe–

Soldiers on patrol don’t get “kidnapped”. They get captured. They’re combatants, and armed, remember?

Spin at a time like this is uncalled-for.

Israel seems intent on it’s own destruction with continuous provocations of its neighbors. They are vastly outnumbered, and eventually an Arab country will develop nukes, it is also just a matter of time before the US will either be uninclined or unable to back Israel. The country has no future-i seriously doubt it will make it to the 22nd century. You’d have to be crazy to live there.

My condolences, Mal de Mer.

But the post here implies that Israel is the “initial� instigator of all this violence, the kidnappings of its soldiers in Galilee are its own fault, and the attack on Lebanon is thus illegitimate. That’s wrong.

This is bullshit, and I’ll tell you why. Who fucking cares “who started it”?? This is not a playground punch-up, to end with a bloody nose and a reluctant handshake. This is using incredibly lethal modern military power to collectively punish an entire state. How can a tiny guerrilla raid into disputed occupied territory, wrong though it might ultimately be, equate to the death and horror being visited on the innocent civilian population of Lebanon? The people who use military power against civilians are the worst kinds of criminals – the Russians in Grozny, the Americans in Baghdad, the Israelis in Lebanon.

“Israel has the right to defend herself”. Riiiiiggghhtt. If you believe in some kind of back-alley bullyboy old-testament kind of self defense that includes dead family members and scorched, salted earth, this is fine. Folks, humans always seem to be able to find an excuse to slaughter one another. What’s needed here is someone with the courage to stop the slaughter. It’s a sad commentary on who we are as a species when it’s easier to break things and hurt people than it is to live together in peace. In a more general sense, I have to say I pretty much agree with Mal de Mer – FUCK these murdering criminals – they have walked away from their humanity, and by the time they understand what they have done, and learn to regret, it will be way too late…

mikey

Mal, I’m sorry for your family’s loss. May you receive no more such news.

Israel’s military response by air, land and sea to what it considered a provocation last week by Hezbollah militants is unfolding according to a plan finalized more than a year ago.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MIDEAST.TMP

Which really puts the shelling of the civilians on the beach into a WHOLE different perspective…

Mal de Mer: I am terribly sorry for your family’s loss.

Gavin: I think the following explanation is just as likely as yours. Hezbollah, with the backing of Iran and Syria, decided to take an opportunistic swipe at Israel, piggybacking on the Gaza situation. The Olmert Administration, which has been perceived as weak, responded forcefully — disproportionately, if you prefer — in part to counter that perception internally, but also as a message to Iran and Syria to quit fucking around with Israel via their puppet Hezbollah. I don’t like it, I don’t approve of it, but I think it is absurd (and counterproductive) to place full responsibility for the crisis on Israel.

Digging back through history, there are plenty of places you can stop and say “This is all so-and-so’s fault”… until you dig a little further and realize that the other guy did something earlier. And someone else did something earlier than that. Personally, I blame the Chaldeans.

DocAmazing: Soldiers are only “captured” by an enemy army during wartime. When an armed terrorist organization (or militia, if you prefer) does it outside of open hostilities, it’s a “kidnapping.”

jeez, that’s awful. mdm – you’re in our thoughts.

Mikey, I agree that intentionally or recklessly killing civilians is reprehensible. But is it not also reprehensible for a guerilla organization to operate — fire rockets, plan and launch raids, etc. — from within a civilian population? Where is the outcry against Hezbollah’s tactics here? How about FUCK Hezbollah, for walking away from their humanity as well?

I am curious as to how you and others think Israel should have responded to Hezbollah’s attack.

How should they have reacted?

By going to the Lebanese government with a plan to bolster the Lebanese military with European Union forces and turn southern Lebanon into a High security zone.

That wouldn’t have dug up the bunkers and tunnels however. Good ole USA to to the rescue on that score.

Mal de Mer — I’m very sorry to hear of your loss.

Mal- condolences. I have nothing that I can say to express my sadness for you.

For the rest:
Hezbo are pieces of shit, but flattening Beirut does nothing but strengthen Hezbo. Like some have mentioned, recently there were people in the streets demanding Syria out of Lebanon, and now those people are getting bombed. If you do not even attempt some sort of diplomacy or intl. pressure how can anything ever get better? There will always be some level of crap that allows the reactionaries to claim “unacceptable security risk” thus we have a perpetual war on our hands because no one turns the cheek on ANYTHING. If someone murders your family in this country, you don’t go murder their family, or their neighbors family as retribution. Destroying the Lebanese to the point where they have nothing, essentially extending their recovery from civil war for another generation at the MINIMUM is not going to do anyone any favors.

Mal de Mer, I am so sorry.

My deepest condolences, Mal de Mer.

As to the rest, I think we all agree that Israel is acting at best irrationally, but anyone who has paid any attention to Israel before this conflict started should know it has been an ongoing blood-for-blood between Israel and its neighbors. It is horribly unfortunate that Lebanon got stuck because it can’t control Hezbollah or free itself from it so it became a proxy – something that I’ve felt Afghanistan was cursed with in its subservience to Al Queda – but this did not form in a vaccuum.

And, Mikey, I don’t know what you hope to accomplish by continuously arguing that it doesn’t matter who is at fault as long as we all condemn Israel completely. Rather than falling back on blind emotional arguments, how about studying the history of the region and learning how both sides continue the circle of violence?

Pinko Punko and mikey get it bang on. Some days it’s hard to imagine anyone actually wants all this to stop.

I’m sorry for you, Mal De Mer, and haven’t the words to say so properly.

mikey,

No, mikey, it DOES MATTER who started it.

“No, mikey, it DOES MATTER who started it.”

Especially when it’s “kikes”, “hebes” and Americans in general!

Feel the love.

PJ O’Rourke (yes, I read him, so?) once wrote an article entitled The 2000-year old Middle Eastern Problem, quoting Josephus.

The unwavering support, at the UN, in war materiel, materially, financially that the USA gives to Israel exacerbates the situation. The US and Iran are now fighting their proxy war in Israel/Lebanon, just as the US/USSR fought proxy wars in Africa during the Cold War – and look how good that turned out. War is horrible, especially for those who have their lives destroyed by it which is basically everyone in there.I am deeply sorry, Mal, that your family got caught in this horror and understand your hatred for the enablers.

I think one can, however, draw a distinction between the US administration and our Web homies – I have to do this as a daily exercise.Hating an entire nation or identifiable group of people is what got humankind in this G-dawful mess, to start with.

Why did Hezbollah capture soldiers? To use as bargining chips to arrange the release of Arabs that Israel has had locked up for years. Why were they locked up? For the defence of Israel. Seems to have worked out real well for them. Ethnic cleansing as self defense will work soooooooo much better though. It’s not like the Goy are human after all. For everyone who defends the recent actions of Israel, I want to know their personal equation of Arab life vs. Israeli life. How many Arabs are worth killing to save the life of one Israeli? Be honest now!! Is there even a point where you would say “That is one too many Arabs murdered in the defence of Israel”?

It’s terrorism to kill innocents in pursuit of political goals.

Terrorism is bad.

Please accept my condolences, mal de mer. That attack was horrible. I do NOT WANT to minimize your loss, but there are atrocities all around. I am concerned about whether Arab states will ever acknowledge Israel’s right to exist. I thought this current war was predicated on Hezbollah’s rocketing Israel and capturing soldiers, although powerful people anywhere can put events into motion that will inevitably lead to war. If only someone could stand in front of this particular tank (metaphor from Tiananmen Square). Jana

I am concerned about whether Arab states will ever acknowledge Israel’s right to exist.

This is much like a libertarian right, unfortunately: there is no right of Israel to exist. There’s the established fact of Israel’s existence. Now, what is to be done about it and can it be done with less slaughter?

Hezbo are pieces of shit, but flattening Beirut does nothing but strengthen Hezbo.

Pinko Punko is right on. Fighting these animals with guns and bombs plays right into their hands. Hezbollah doesn’t mind dead Lebanese civilians. The more martyrs, the better. The Israeli invasion just gives Hezbollah legitimacy and an ability to claim the moral high ground, no matter how tenuous that claim may be. And it plays into the narrative that Israel just wants to kill Arabs and occupy Arab land. It’s a naked power grab by the Israelis, just like George W.’s little Iraq adventure was a blatant power/resources grab. A huge disastrous clusterfuck all around.

Israel is like the Joe Pesci to the United States’ Robert DeNiro– the small but short-tempered and brutal bully, easily provoked and prone to disproportionate amounts of violence. We know what happened to Pesci at the end of Goodfellas and Casino.

I don’t like it, I don’t approve of it, but I think it is absurd (and counterproductive) to place full responsibility for the crisis on Israel.

That would be absurd. However, as an American, whose government has far more influence with Israel than with its neighbors (save Iraq, but that’s a completely different story), it becomes a matter of pragmatism to discuss reigning in the disproportionate response by Tel Aviv over the aggression by Hezbollah (and its backers) or the toothlessness of the anti-Hezbollah Lebanese government.

As I see it, Israel faced a situation that can be broken down into two, somewhat conflicting parts.

Militarily, it made sense for Israel to cut off Hezbollah from its suppliers, then destroy the boxed-in enemy.

But politically and historically, it was in Israel’s long-term interest to grow its ties with the most Israel-friendly government in Beirut in decades. That would have required Israel to practice restraint in accomplishing its military objectives re: Hezbollah. It would have required collaboration with Beirut, the U.S., the UN and Damascus (if not Teheran) to at least attempt a brokered solution to the problem of Hezbollah.

Sadly, Israel chose to place its military objectives over its political and historical objectives. We do not know what the future will hold for the current Lebanese government, we do not know how long the current war will go on, the extent of the destruction it will cause or what new problems will arise from it … but it seems highly likely that Israel has lost all the positives accrued from the Cedar Revolution.

Fifty-plus years of Israel being the guys who don’t take an ounce of shit from anybody has certainly produced any number of “Remember the Maine” incidents for Israelis and their supporters to call upon when ginning up outrage at the country’s enemies.

What that strategy hasn’t produced is any discernable change in the vulnerable state Israel has been in since its founding.

Somthing’s got to give.

Where is the outcry against Hezbollah’s tactics here?

I’m reminded of the days after 9/11, when it was absolutely forbidden to discuss root causes. You were some kind of crazed traitor nutjob if you tried to include in the discussion the fact that, in spite of the horrendous evil of their actions, these people had genuine, valid complaints about the behavior of the United States in the world and no way to get any action on them. You can hate the action, but it does absolutely no good whatsoever to pretend that the other party was completely innocent. I don’t condone the hezbollah’s attacks, or those of Hamas or Fatah or PFLP (how far do you want to go back?), but I certainly can understand why they would undertake them. I’m pretty sure if I’d spent my whole life in a Palestinian refugee camp, chafing under the occupiers, I’d pick up a weapon too. Would it make me right? Of course not! But it wouldn’t mean THEY were right either!

I am curious as to how you and others think Israel should have responded to Hezbollah’s attack.

Dan, you and I have talked in the past, and I know from those conversations you are a reasonable man with a good head for ops. Do you think you could sit down with a map and an order of battle that included ALL the tech goddies the IDF has and come up with a 2-4 week low-intensity operation that would seriously degrade Hezbollah’s functional military capability while killing virtually no innocent Lebanese civilians and destroying NO infrastructure? I’m pretty sure I could. Israel has some of the best shooters on the planet, and these are classic small unit ops.

Nope, it’s beyond clear that Israel is pursuing a set of political goals at a devastating cost to Lebanon as a nation and her people. And, at least at the upper political levels, they just don’t seem to give 2 shits about the people they are killing and the lives they are wrecking.

mikey

XeroMan, you apparently have difficulty distinguishing between “disparaging” and “dehumanizing.” The word “goy” may be a disdainful way to refer to non-Jews, but as far as I know, it is not used nearly as hatefully as the words “kike” or “hebe,” and has no eliminationist overtones.

There is no question that there are Israeli Jews who view their Arab neighbors as non-human vermin. And there are probably as many — proportionately, which means far more in absolute terms — Arabs in the region who view Israeli Jews as non-human vermin.

As for why Hezbollah took Israeli soldiers captive… well, you have noted one possibility. The timing of the raid certainly makes it appear there was something more involved.

And what is your personal equation? How many Israelis are worth killing to try to secure the release of Arab prisoners? Because lest we forget, not only were two soldiers “captured” in the Hezbollah raid, but eight others were killed. Furthermore, what is Hezbollah’s calculus of the value of the lives of the civilians among whom they hide? When a criminal grabs an innocent bystander and holds her in front of him as a human shield, what sort of moral high ground is he taking?

Finally, owlbear is the only one who has responded so far to my question of what Israel should have done in response to Hezbollah’s raid. By going to the Lebanese government with a plan to bolster the Lebanese military with European Union forces and turn southern Lebanon into a High security zone. But the Lebanese government has proven to be either unwilling or unable to exert any security control on its southern border, and putting a “plan” into place does not address the safety or return of the kidnapped soldiers.

It’s a shitty situation. Israel has no way to win, as demonstrated amply by the comments here. Attempt a “diplomatic” approach, and Hezbollah, Iran and Syria are emboldened to step up their incursions. (Or does anyone seriously want to argue that they would stop at this?) Make a military response, and suffer worldwide condemnation. I don’t like the choice Israel has made, but neither am I willing to reserve my disgust solely for one side of this conflict.

Mal de Mar, it’s a shame that Hezbollah kidnapped Israeli soldiers and started this conflict, causing the deaths of your in-laws.

As for this “disportionate response” nonsense. It says a lot about the left’s dishonesty that they haven’t tried this line on America for our response to 9/11. You all know that you wanna try it, but you haven’t.

The Israeli response is to eliminate Hezbollah.

Much like America’s response to 9/11 is to eliminate Al-Qaeda.

Mal de Mar, it’s a shame that Hezbollah kidnapped Israeli soldiers and started this conflict, causing the deaths of your in-laws.

It’s a shame that you continue to breathe. FOAD, asshole.

I totally agree, Dan Someone. Your last paragraph completely sums up the situation perfectly.

Fuck you, Gary, you morally bankrupt fascist piece of filth masquerading as a human being.

I’m sure you’ve never known an iota of the pain that anyone who’s lost a loved one in this bloody mess is experiencing. Go the fuck away, and don’t come back until you’ve learned something about compassion.

Dan,
I can state that I value human life equally, and that I back it up with my belief system. Israel bombs the hell out of Lebanon, and you ask me why I’m not upset about the loss of Israeli life? Talk about bullshit. I don’t want any Israelis dead, just as I don’t want Arabs dead. Really though, your point is disingenuous. First off, there is a lot of history here. Secondly, there were events in the works that could have been a big step towards peace. The political arm of Hamas was working on a deal to partially recognize Israel. That is a step. Israel chooses that time to start targeted assassinations of Hamas leaders in Gaza. The militant wing of Hamas responds. In Lebanon Hezbollah was facing a crisis of legitimacy, so they provoke Israel. Israel immediately responds with insane force, making Hezbollah the hero of the hour in the Arab world. Lets face it; Israel can be counted on to fuck things up royally. Thirdly – you rightfully denounce Hezbollah for cynically using the citizens of Lebanon as shields in their struggles. Well, The same can be said for Israel who have placed high priority military targets in the middle of Arab villages. To top it off, Israel is sure milking the capture of its soldiers for all it is worth. Why not do a prisoner swap, like they have done in the past? No, Israel drew up a plan to attack Hezbollah after it was forced out of southern Lebanon in 2000. They were itching for any excuse to implement their grand policy. Did they have the same people plan that as they did that planned the occupation of Iraq? ‘Cuz it sure seems to be as stupid, inept and willfully blind.
So don’t give me some shit that Israel tried the diplomatic route. Bullshit. They know the demographic trends are running against them, and they have chosen ethnic cleansing as the solution. Good fucking luck with that.

My condolances, Mal– my family got similar messages from Northern Ireland back in the day (pre-Me), and it always sucks. I’ll light a candle for them.

It says a lot about the left’s dishonesty that they haven’t tried this line on America for our response to 9/11.

Oh, but I have. Over and over again. Short form. They attacked us once five years ago (yeah, I know, it wasn’t the first time, but 9/11 started the clock running on the GWOT), killing 3000 of our citizens. We had to respond, hard and fast. But jeezus – since then we’ve invaded two countries, killed 100,000 civilians, cost the lives and well-being of tens of thousands of America’s best and brightest, and to what end? There’s more terror and more terrorism.

It’s sort of fitting that a more proportionate response would actually have been much more effective. Small teams of highly mobile shooters, SEAL teams and Delta and HRT shooters, the best of the best, along with SAS and GSG-9 and Shin Bet, we could have created an environment where anybody actively working with al Quaida or affiliated terror groups would have a very valid concern about seeing the sun rise the next day. This is how you fight terror, and how you do it without destroying nations and hurting their civilian population. ‘Course, you gotta care a little bit about those things first…

mikey

I’m so sorry, Mal de Mer. This whole situation is fucked up beyond belief.

I think Kung-Fu Monkey said it best: There is plenty of room in hell for everybody in this.

OK, now Mikey has responded. And I am sure you are correct that small-unit ground ops could have been fairly effective with far fewer civilian casualties. That said, there are several considerations that, to me, suggest that Israel would still be getting the short end of the stick in that scenario: (1) Ground ops are always more risky to your own troops than air strikes, and urban ground ops perhaps exponentially moreso. (2) Inevitably, civilian casualties would occur and, while less dramatic overall, they would still worldwide outrage against Israel. (3) Hezbollah would pound Haifa with rocket fire for the duration of any ops, just as it is doing now, only its supplies would be greater (or would be diminishing much more slowly than with airstrikes). Again, a no-win situation for Israel. Would it be a better or worse no-win situation for Israel? I can’t say, and I don’t know if any such calculation was ever made in Israel’s upper echelons (though I think the message to Iran and Syria — see blow — would not be as clear).

Does that mean I prefer the air strike approach? No. I strongly prefer the old-school methods of infiltrating crack Mossad antiterrorists into Hezbollah strongholds to do their James Bond thing… but (a) that’s the moviegoer in me and (b) Mossad just isn’t the same as it once was. But anything that involves minimizing civilian casualties would be preferable.

And I agree, there are political motivations for the approach Israel has taken. They are trying to send a very strong message to Syria and Iran. And I think Syria and Iran bear a great deal of culpability, because they support Hezbollah, they supply Hezbollah and they encourage Hezbollah to take up residence and launch operations from within civilian populations. And Israel is also trying to send a strong message to its own people, namely that it is not weak, not soft. Are these the right messages to be sending? I don’t know. I tend to think Syria and Iran need to know they can’t just stir the pot without consequences. Is it the right way to send the messages? In terms of making their points, yes. In terms of morality, humanity and general smartness, no.

I don’t know what the right answer is. If we had an international peacekeeping force capable of separating the pit bulls and keeping them apart while a real accord is worked out, I would advocate using it. But we don’t (and who knows how well it would work anyway). So now what? Unilaterally condemning or defending Israel accomplishes squat, though the argument does give the real antisemites plenty of cover. Digging through history for root causes does less than squat, because as I noted, for every “he did this” there is a “but the other guy did that first.”

So there you go. All I can do is throw up my hands in disgust and despair. I have no answers. There may be no answers.

Oh, and if you respond by “If they swap prisoners, then the nasty Arab barbarians will just do it again” I would respond… “Why the fuck is Israel holding them anyways? One prisoner was arrested when he was 16, 22 years ago. He is being held for life incommunicado. As long as Israel holds prisoners, continues assassinations and continues the outright humiliation of Arabs, they are not going to have peace.”

I’ll buy every bit of that, Dan, with the only exception being that the israelis could have also used air and arty, just in a somewhat more circumspect way.

That said, you’re also right when you say there are no answers. Shit like this will stop when a majority of the people in power feel that it’s more important to live together in peace than to fight wars and dominate their neighbors militarilly. Naive? Idealistic? Reckon so. But why should it be impossible? When we get a sea – change of that nature, all the waste and horror of war will be in the past. Until then? Well, we all know who does the preponderance of the suffering in warfare…

mikey

The Kung Fu Monkey post was terrific. Read and memorize. Thanks, Gavin.

Dan/Jiunoon/whomever –

Why couldn’t Israel have used the kidnapping by Hezbollah as an opportunity to go to the government of Lebanon, the U.S., France, the U.N., Russia, etc. and said, we need an international solution to Hezbollah, and we need it now. We need to assist the government of Lebanon (which had finally ousted Syria from the country, and for which everyone was supposedly celebrating the “victory” of democracy) in getting rid of Hezbollah. Lebanon can’t do it alone.

Then, you have international pressure, and international help to get rid of Hezbollah. You are on the side of Lebanon, so then you can pressure other governments in the area like Egypt and Saudi Arabia to help. Syria will be pressured to not help Hezbollah since everyone is on the side of the Lebanon government.

Then you have the groundwork for (1) getting the kidnapped soldiers back and (2) stopping any further attacks.

In addition, Israel, with its counter-terrorism/spy network, can work on locating and – if feasible – rescuing the soldiers.

What has anyone done this year to help get rid of Hezbollah? And then you are going to argue that Israel had no choice but to destroy Lebanon?

XeroMan:

Really though, your point is disingenuous. First off, there is a lot of history here.

See my other posts on why “history” is of little use as a guide in this instance.

The political arm of Hamas was working on a deal to partially recognize Israel.

Wow. And only 58 years after Israel declared its independence and was recognized by the majority of the rest of the world. I guess peace in the Middle East was finally at hand!

Why not do a prisoner swap, like they have done in the past?

Like 420 Arab prisoners for one Israeli businessman and the remains of three long-dead Israeli soldiers, in 2004? Or, as Hamas demanded this month, more than 1,000 Palestinian prisoners in exchange for one Israeli soldier? I have no problem with the concept of a prisoner exchange, but ought there not be some sense of proportionality in the swap? Or is Israel expected to concede whatever its enemies demand to get its people back?

Israel drew up a plan to attack Hezbollah after it was forced out of southern Lebanon in 2000. They were itching for any excuse to implement their grand policy.

The first sentence is fact. The second is your speculation, unless you have some inside information not available to me. I have a plan on how to get out of my house in the event of a fire, but that doesn’t mean I’m planning arson. In 2000, I think it was perfectly reasonable for Israel to anticipate needing a plan to fight Hezbollah some day, given how weak Lebanon’s government was and how much interference there has been from Syria and Iran. Whether they wanted to implement the plan or not is a different question, one that I don’t think either of us is qualified to answer.

We need to assist the government of Lebanon (which had finally ousted Syria from the country, and for which everyone was supposedly celebrating the “victory� of democracy) in getting rid of Hezbollah.

Hezbollah is more than a military force, they’re elected representatives of the people. What you want is to try to get rid of its military facet, not the political/social Hezbollah, which is doing enough for the people of Lebanon that they get respect. It’ll be telling to the citizenry that the people on the ground who bother about the common folk’s social welfare vanish because of Israel.

Kathleen, I think your idea would have been great, but for two things: (1) Any attempt to address Lebanon and Hezbollah would really have to be part of a larger effort to create a solution in the entire region. With Iran and Syria so deeply involved, and with the links to Hamas and the Palestinians, there is no way to just say “We need to do something about Hezbollah in southern Lebanon” and come up with a solution that sticks. (2) After the soldiers were captured, I think there is a time compression that seriously hinders any such efforts. Israel is concerned with getting its guys back as quickly as possible, and the international community just doesn’t move that fast.

Also, as much as I think the idea of a concerted regional effort to oust Hezbollah is appealing, I can’t envision any of the Arab countries lining up with Israel (and the U.S.) to do so. Many of those countries’ governments are in a very precarious position with hardline Islamic political parties and their military wings.

True enough that it is speculation on my part that they were itching to use force. Gee, I don’t know where I could have got that idea though!!!!
It really is true… there are some who live in a reality based world, then there are those that invent reality. Bravely forging a new future while the rest of us mere mortals can merely react to the new reality. Of course, once we get used to it, the supermen act again and make it a new reality.

Regarding the prisoners – fuck proportionality. You defend Israel’s actions in bombing Lebanon, then equate that with a prisoner swap? WTF? Israel is holding another nations citizens against the other nations will. Amnesty International criticized Israel for picking up random Lebanese civilians to use as bargaining chips. Israel courts are as much a sham as the tribunals Bush set up. You want peace? Start by letting them go. Carry on by embracing the baby steps of the moderate wing of Hamas. Your sarcastic dismissal of what had been achieved is disgusting. You think that bombing the Arabs will bring peace? I doubt it. But it does feel better than working with Hamas, right?. By ridiculing what was achieved you display an utter contempt for diplomacy and a peaceful solution. Yeah, it took 58 years. But it was happening. Not anymore though. Let the ethnic cleansing continue! Maybe Israel should drop leaflets stating: “The bombings will continue until you stop hating us”. I’m sure you see the logic in that!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1358173,00.html

“An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old.”

“At that point, Captain R took the unusual decision to leave the post in pursuit of the girl. He shot her dead and then “confirmed the kill” by emptying his magazine into her body. ”

Yeah, Hezbollah is nasty! Damn Arabs should disarm and trust in the benevolence of Israel!

I am curious as to how you and others think Israel should have responded to Hezbollah’s attack.

Maybe they could take a cue from the Lebanese government. What was that Rice said to the PM today? “Thank you for your courage and steadfastness.” See it takes real courage to walk away from a fight.

Like 420 Arab prisoners for one Israeli businessman and the remains of three long-dead Israeli soldiers, in 2004? Or, as Hamas demanded this month, more than 1,000 Palestinian prisoners in exchange for one Israeli soldier? I have no problem with the concept of a prisoner exchange, but ought there not be some sense of proportionality in the swap?

But shouldn’t there be some sense of proportionality in the number of prisoners each side is holding? I mean, 420:1 and 1,000+:1 aren’t exactly winning ratios for your argument.

You defend Israel’s actions in bombing Lebanon, then equate that with a prisoner swap? WTF?

XeroMan, if you can’t respond to me without distorting my comments, then I’m done with you. I have not defended Israel’s bombing of Lebanon. I’ve merely pointed out that there are multiple players, each deserving disgust and outrage, and that it is misguided (at best) to blame the entire mess on Israel.

And you are the one who brought up prisoner swaps, not I.

Now if you can’t or won’t read what I write, instead of what you want me to have written so you can spout more outrage, then piss off.

I have no idea what’s the right position in Israel/Hezbollah. Killing children is wrong. Hezbollah is equipped to the teeth with “thousands” of Iranian missiles with which they would gladly kill Israeli children. Hezbollah is a non-state actor, so their sponsors and enablers bear legal/moral responsibility too. It’s possible Israel overreacted or reacted unwisely, since no one seriously believes in “surgical” strikes any more (if they ever did). The deaths of civilians is horrible, no matter who they are. Israel is surrounded by both nations and quasi-official organizations who explicitly wish it destroyed. If Hezbollah existed but never attacked Israel, Israel would probably not wish it destroyed. If Israel merely exists, Hezbolla wishes it destroyed. But Israel has a better military than its enemies, so its responses can be seen as–and maybe are–“disproportionate.”

It’s possible its enemies goad it, deliberately, into just this kind of response, which the world then mainly deplores. But an enemy with thousands of missiles (donated by a powerful backstage enemy) is not merely a ragtag bunch of zealots undeserving of a big-league counterstrike. Israel is not an adult whaling into a child. Hezbollah is its avowed mortal enemy.

Oh, and Gary Ruppert? Still here? It’s worse than ludicrous for you to talk about “dishonesty,” since every tenet and action from the Bush admin. was and is based on outright lies. Kindly have the intellectual honesty to admit that, since it’s an established, objective fact. Or, alt., kindly have the simple moral decency to go fuck yourself, repeatedly, with a Hilleritch and Bradsby “Louisville Slugger.” We are at the stage now where the only defenders of the administration’s previous actions are witting liars or online troll imbeciles who still truly believe what everyone else (including the liars) know is and was untrue from the start.

The facts are in. This is not a matter of dispute any longer. America’s “response to 9-11” was not “to eliminate Al Qaeda.” Or, rather, it was at first, in Afghanistan. Then we abandoned that response in favor of the supremely hubristic and idiotic project of turning Iraq into…well, a Muslim Israel. Al Qaeda wasn’t in Iraq until we let it in.

Dan – I just cannot agree with you. Trying diplomacy and to actually solve the problems that Hezbollah poses is better than destroying Lebanon. It just is. It is better morally. it is better practically.

What you seem to be saying is that the bombing is unfortunate, but there is nothing else for Israel to do, and Israel can’t do anything else because it wouldn’t work. Well, the bombing isn’t working, and it isn’t going to work. So your argument – to me – needs something more than these other ideas wouldn’t work either.

and finally, how long has it been since the soldiers were kidnapped? and you are telling me that the goal is to get them back fast?

at a certain point, when you look at your goals, and then the consequences of what you are doing, and see how far apart they are, it is time to change tactics.

DA, I don’t know how many prisoners Israel is holding or why they are holding the ones they have. I have no doubt that some of them should be released outright, without any “prisoner exchange.”

My point is only that the Palestinian demand for the release of more than 1,000 prisoners in exchange for one Israeli soldier is not on its face reasonable, and that it is not automatically appropriate for Israel to accede to such demands, even as a way to avoid fighting.

Kathleen, I never said I think bombing is an appropriate response to the kidnapping of soldiers. And as I’ve already noted, I don’t know what would work. I do believe a political solution is required, but as I said, I think it has to be regionwide; it can’t simply be focused on Hezbollah guerillas in southern Lebanon.

Compare and contrast:
The scene from a rocket strike in Hafia:

To Beruit:

*******
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/285B14DF-5EE4-4733-ACB4-F2EE55F3E0BA.htm

“Seventeen Israelis have died in rocket attacks since the beginning of the conflict on July 12.”

“More than 2,200 Hezbollah rockets had hit northern Israel by Sunday. They have struck as far as Afula, 50km south of the border.”

Most of the rockets fall into the water, or explode in fields. 2,200 rockets results in 17 dead? I’m not saying that I want the rockets to succeed; I’m merely pointing out the contrast in weaponry. Hezbollah is relying on dumb luck to hit anything. Israel on the other hand knows exactly what they are doing when they destroy residential buildings, or target vehicles fleeing the south (as they were instructed to do by Israel). How about Hezbollah disarms at the same time Israel does? No? I thought not!

Ruppert: Much like America’s response to 9/11 is to eliminate Al-Qaeda.

Yes, “much like” indeed, the similarity being this: America’s ultimate “response” to 9-11 was to yank troops out of Afghanistan, where bin Laden and his shit-eating gang of God-lovers actually were, in order to send them off to destroy Iraq, where Al Qaida wasn’t, and that item of Bush Administration treason is the reason that bin Laden is running around free today, laughing his millionaire ass off. Naturally an anti-American idiot like you would find something admirable in the Bush Administration’s incomprehensible unwillingness and/or drooling incompetence to avenge the 9-11 atrocity.

Similarly, the military geniuses in Israel, after first a.) shelling Palestinian civilians on the beach in Gaza, and then flagrantly lying about their obvious culpability and b.) invading the Palestinian territories on June 24 to kidnap a doctor and his brother, have responded to Hamas’s and Hezbollah’s counter-attacks – which, note, were uncharacteristically not directed against civilians but against IDF soldiers – have decided to bomb the Hell out of countless entirely innocent civilian targets in Beirut, including a Maronite church, a dairy factory, and every water-treatment facility and electrical generation plant they can find.

Needless to say, smashing Lebanon’s economy and butchering their civilian population does exactly nothing to counter Hezbollah’s threat to Israel. Quite the opposite in fact; no more effective recruiting campaign for Hezbollah can be imagined. This result isn’t so good for the civilians of Israel, no more than turning our backs on Al Qaida benefited the American public, but on the other hand, both there and here, a constant state of percolating violence is sure-fire job security for the war party. I guess these days the Israeli population exists to serve the purposes of the war-mongers running the IDF, rather than the IDF existing in order to protect the Israeli population.

Poor Dan, it is hard to defend the angry giant. Sorry, the Arabs are not playing the part of Goliath here. Why not respond to some of the topics I bring up instead of saying that you don’t want to play anymore? You don’t have a moral leg to stand on, but like a Bush supporter you can’t help put up some feeble defense.

Oh, and I love your reasoning that it is not reasonable to swap 1000 for one. Love how Israel can round up civilians by the truckloads as bargaining chips. No wonder they need so many – they need a hostage reserve pool for a rainy day!

Damn, no image tags?

Why not respond to some of the topics I bring up instead of saying that you don’t want to play anymore?

As soon as you address something I have actually written instead of what you would like me to have written so you can justify your vituperation, I will play again.

Please enlighten me on how I’ve twisted your arguments and taken them out of context.

Kathleen, I know Dan has already responded but I want to put in my own two cents. First, I am tired of starting every post with “I think Israel went overboard on their response, but…”, especially because goodness knows nobody attacking Israel has made any concession that decades of Palestinian attacks on Israel are a bad thing so I hope you all assume that everything I’m saying is condemning both sides.

As for going to the UN, as someone who has followed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the international community (other than the United States) tends to historically side with the Palestinians in most matters. While this is not an excuse for trying more diplomacy, it is understandable that, after weeks of Palestinian and Hezbollah rockets coming into Israel before the kidnappings, Israel might feel that the UN would continue to be as cold to their cause. When Israel asked for the first prisoners back, the Hamas leadership’s proposal was for Israel to release people they held as a show of goodwill with no mention of trying to secure the kidnapped Israelis and nobody internationally tried to denounce this.

The point remains that the Palestinians – while they may or may not have been working toward a peace plan – made no attempt at policing domestic and outside (Hezbollah) militant anti-Israeli forces and it’s a show of bad faith. Israel has made numerous concessions over the years and the Palestinians seem to think that attacking the civilians of Israel does not contradict the peace plan as it is merely complacent rather than involved.

Basically, while Israel’s response was unwarrented, it’s disinterest in continuing diplomacy is understandable even if it was wrong.

JuiNoon,
Um, No. The UN has issued a number of resolutions condemning Israel, but the US has defended Israel so nothing gets accomplished. Hello, Israel is occupying the territory of other nations. You think that might have something to do with their security problems? Israel doesn’t like international diplomacy for the same reason that South Africa under apartheid didn’t like it.
I’ll grant you that the actions to promote real peace would be extremely difficult for both sides. What I am sick of is the one sided treatment that Israel receives, and then to have people like you come on and defend them. Show me the articles where Palis have killed Israeli children for sport. Can’t find any? I know it is not for lack of Pali desire to hurt Israel. Simple fact is that Israel holds the power. The one with the power is the abuser. The Arabs respond with suicide bombs and clumsy rocket attacks. I don’t agree with those actions, but then I’m not in their shoes. Being nice to an IDF soldier at a checkpoint won’t likely make a difference for a Pali… if the soldier is having a bad day they can ruin the Pali’s life. Some parity there. Israel is a brutal, racist country, and their actions have bred resentment, hatred and the desire for retaliation. Yet somehow they have people like you and Dan defending them as the victims. Sure, they have suffered, but in the face of what they have dished out it makes you look like immoral bigots defending the inhumane.

Good fucking god.

First off: GoatBoy, stop trying to help me, it’s making you look bad by slurring Jews (not Israelis) without the context of it being something Mal de Mer said. I’m not even angry with him, I just want an explaination for why he suddenly thinks Jewish New Yorkers are the ones responsible for this fucking mess.

Secondly, everyone running this merry-go-round of who started it first. Do you not understand how abso-fucking-lutely useless this argument is within a historical context? There is always always something done before a situation that people can use to justify the current situation, because time, it moves in a continuum. The Israelis began bombing to do this, in reaction to that, which was in reaction to this other thing going on and going back to at least the point where Europe started carving up countries in the Middle East, and then figured they could carve off one more nation-state out of Palestine.

And of course, even THAT has predecessors to the problem. So what’s the point I bring this up for? We can talk at each other until we’re blue in the fucking face, but we won’t find the smoking gun that made EVERYTHING happen. Because you can’t. Anytime you simplify the situation to find the Reason, you’ve taken a side that the other person can find an excuse for. So you’ve basically got to say fuck-all to the wind and accept that what is going on right now, is what is going on right now. No history, just current present situation.

But let me be entirely fucking clear on what this war is not concerning. Religion. This is turf war, plain and fucking simple. If tomorrow, all the same politicians in charge of Hezbollah and the IDF became secular humanists, there would still be fighting by noontime, because this is about fucking LAND. And land is the king motherfuckers of atrocity-makers. WW1 killed thousands of soldiers daily to keep less land than on my front lawn.

I’m not addressing the prisoner situation, because as far as I’m concerned, Israel’s fucked either direction it goes. In an ideal world, they’d release their captives, Hezbollah would release theirs, that’s that. But then you throw in pride (“why should we release 1000 for 1?”), rational fear (“how do we know what these prisoners will do once they’re back outside and holding a grudge against Israel?”) and irrational fear (“if we release these criminals, they’ll just kill our soldiers and kidnap more to release more criminals!”). And that fucks the whole fucking tree.

Also, everyone needs to fucking shut it with the Republican comparisons. I’ve been called a Zionist neoconservative by a blatant fucking anti-Semite in one of these threads, and I’ll tell you that shit stings. The only persons who should be called Republicans are the shills like Ruppert or d’Goldcock.

Incidently, this sudden influx of anti-Semites onto this website and really into the public sphere is one of those reasons why I almost wish Israel was fucking disarmed. Because everytime they do something like this, it just adds more shit to the well all Jews drink of. So many of us are not Israel, have no intention of becoming part of Israel until the Messiah truly comes, but yet we must still hold the millstone of hatred around our neck for crimes those in the IDF and in the Knesset commit.

And if we argue we are not responsible, we are called anti-Semites by the ones who truly hate the Jewish people. We’re caught in a crossfire that I’m still trying to find a way to escape.

XeroMan –

I’m not as good at debating, but let me go after your points.

Most of the rockets fall into the water, or explode in fields. 2,200 rockets results in 17 dead? I’m not saying that I want the rockets to succeed; I’m merely pointing out the contrast in weaponry. Hezbollah is relying on dumb luck to hit anything.
First off, this doesn’t change the fact that they were firing the missiles into Israel before the kidnappings. Like suicide bombers, the rockets fired by the enemies of Israel are primarilly to keep the nation in a state of fear. Hence, terrorism.

Second, Israel wouldn’t be carrying out these retaliatory attacks if Hazbollah hadn’t attacked and kidnapped Israelis. I’m not saying “they started it so it’s okay” but to try to pin it all on the winning side kinda boils down to “sure, Hezbollah provoked the attack, but Israel should have accepted it. The fact that they’re fighting back with their advanced weaponry proves they’re wrong.”

Israel on the other hand knows exactly what they are doing when they destroy residential buildings, or target vehicles fleeing the south (as they were instructed to do by Israel).
I have heard nothing about attacking vehicles fleeing the south and would be interested to see your sources. The news I read (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-07-20-israel-lebanon_x.htm?csp=34 for example) dealt with Israel telling the Lebanese to flee to avoid their attack, which seems a bit in contrast to the idea of attacking them as they flee. I mean, a bunch of people in homes seems an easier target than fleeing vehicles.

And, by the way, taking news from Al Jazeerah on the conflict is like going to Fox News on the Iraqi situation. I’m not saying my sources are better, but you’re not convincing anyone of anything by using pro-Arab, pro-Palestinian news source.

I am very sorry for your loss, mal de mer. Best wishes to your family.

Even more unimaginable than a lasting peace on the Israel/Palestine issue: a blog comments discussion on the Israel/Palestine issue than doesn’t veer into a flamewar.

I was wondering if anyone has read the article linked by owlbear1? It says that Israel and the U.S. have been planning this “conflict” for more than a year.
More than a year ago, a senior Israeli army officer began giving PowerPoint presentations, on an off-the-record basis, to U.S. and other diplomats, journalists and think tanks, setting out the plan for the current operation in revealing detail. Under the ground rules of the briefings, the officer could not be identified. (Please go read the whole thing)

This, I think, makes “Israel was provoked” a little moot.
As far as the strategy to kill innocent civilians instead of using special ops (which would actually be more effective), Eran Lerman had this to say:
A ground invasion that sweeps Hezbollah in front of you is quicker, but at a much higher cost in human life and requiring the creation of a presence on the ground.”

I guess “human life” doesn’t extend to Lebanese children (and other innocent civilians). That’s nice to know.

As for going to the UN, as someone who has followed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the international community (other than the United States) tends to historically side with the Palestinians in most matters.

This is true. But it is telling how polarizing this debate can be that there’s no mention of which of the parties is occupied, oppressed, living in poverty, in the shadow of guns, tanks and checkpoints, has no control over their own economy and is therefore dependent upon the charity of others, who have had generations grow up in refugee camps with poor sanitation, no education and no hope. And which party enjoys a very high living standard, with a strong economy, an excellent education and health-care system, infrastructure that includes schools, universities, hospitals, doctors, water and sewage treatment plants and power generation stations.

Like you, I’m tired of having to preface every statement with “Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah, among others have armed wings that are bad peeps who do bad things, but”, so please consider that a permanent “sticky”.

It is, at least to me, easy to understand why the Palestinians would pick up arms against Israel. Geez, maybe if Israel HELPED them better their lives instead of keeping them poor, sick, undereducated, angry and hopeless, with no identity or dignity except that which comes from being victims, maybe there’d be some hope for the conflict to eventually end. But from the behavior I see, it looks to me like Israel is satisfied with the status quo and would prefer for the conflict not to end. I wonder how much of that is the state believing they need an ‘enemy’. Just my opinion, I don’t expect you to agree, but I seriously doubt you have an argument to change my mind – it’s my interpretation of the same historical events some of you interpret, well, differently…

mikey

Please enlighten me on how I’ve twisted your arguments and taken them out of context.

XeroMan: You defend Israel’s actions in bombing Lebanon, then equate that with a prisoner swap?

I never defended Israel’s bombing of Lebanon. Nor did I equate the bombing with a prisoner swap (which was something you brought up).

XeroMan: Oh, and I love your reasoning that it is not reasonable to swap 1000 for one.

Not what I said. I said it’s not on its face reasonable. Not automatically appropriate for Israel to agree to such an exchange.

There’s two examples. Now, if you want to respond to what I write, fine. If you just want to vent, fine also, but don’t expect me to respond. (Don’t worry. If you want, you can then claim a moral and intellectual victory when I don’t respond to your venting.)

By the way, if Israel really does, as you say, “round up civilians by the truckloads as bargaining chips,” then why wouldn’t they just agree to the exchange? I’m not sure I see the logic behind that — round up civilians to use as bargaining chips and then not bargain with them?

XeroMan –

To respond, I was talking to Kathleen’s point of why Israel wouldn’t go to the UN. In fact, where you said Um, No. The UN has issued a number of resolutions condemning Israel, you made my point for me.

Yes, Israel has occupied land, but you treat it as if all of Israel is occupied Palestine. The former lands of Palestine were given to Israel by the UK – who DID own the land, not the Palestinians. We can get into the evils of colonialism, but that’s a seperate topic. The point is that you can’t use Israel’s existance – an internationally accepted existance – as an excuse to condemn them for everything.

And, lastly, as I just said in my other post, I’m tired of the idea that if I don’t start every post with an animated GIF of the Star of David morphing into a swastika then I’m one-sided. I condemn Israel’s actions, but I also condemn Hezbollah’s interference, the Palestinians’ attacks and lack of policing of their own people, and much of the world – George W. Bush included – whose actions or inactions have worked to undermind any chance of a peace process. If that’s not even-handed enough for you, then perhaps you need to reset your level before you call other people crooked.

lol JuiNoon
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1827506,00.html

JuiNoon
Yeah, can’t trust Arab news, they are Arabs after all! How about Robert Fisk? No wait, he lived in Lebanon for 15 years – obviously biased as well. Amnesty International?? A terrorist organization (declared so by Israel)! I guess I should stick to American media – the only true account!

As for “sure, Hezbollah provoked the attack, but Israel should have accepted it. The fact that they’re fighting back with their advanced weaponry proves they’re wrong.â€? – Hello, they are using that advanced weaponry to destroy a country. Have you read reports of what is happening in Lebanon? I doubt it. It’s a massacre. That’s the fucking problem. Not that they are using advanced weaponry, but how they are using it. Hell, with the advanced weaponry it makes it a sure bet that Israel hits what it intends to hit. Which is civilian infrastructure. To quote an Israeli cabinet Minister “We’re going to bomb them back 20 years”. That is the crap you are defending. Do you even know how many Lebanese have been killed, wound or displaced? Or do you just not care? How could you make the argument you just did unless you don’t give a shit about the Lebanese?

Can we ban the Ruppert now? Please?

mikey –

Man, I really want to come to common grounds with you. You seem like you’re very passionate, although I distrust your sources, and deep down I assume you are not the “sweep them into the ocean” type and that you too want peace.

That said, I can’t agree with your appraisal of Palestine. They are a people whose unifying cause is the destruction of Israel (as opposed to the Israeli Arabs who hope to make Israel consider Arab causes). On top of that, they receive tons of aid – including from the US – but their money tends to go towards weapons rather than helping their citizens, making at least part of their culture of fear a fault of their own selfish leadership.

Another problem is that they are very good at PR – showing off dead bodies left and right while they send children to throw rocks at soldiers and teaching their young that Israelis poison their drinking water (which I was told by an actual Palestinian youth). It is hard to avoid civilian casualties when Palestinian gunmen hide in crowds of innocents and high-profile targets sequester themselves in heavily crowded neighborhoods.

Obviously we’ve seen the conflict from different sides and I long ago gave up the idea that Israel is the pure innocent nation I heard about as a child, but there is quite a bit of propoganda behind the Palestinians so I can’t really take much of what they say at face value. Israelis live in fear of groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, and Palestinians live in fear of Israeli retalliations. To say either side is completely right or completely wrong is to ignore large piles of dead and wounded on the other side but I feel that the Palestinian leadership – including Arafat who repeatedly walked away from peace agreements his advisors begged him to take – are a large part of the sufferring of Palestinians.

To those who would use these words against me, remember that this is in response to the situation of the Palestinians and not a comment on the current conflict.

Just a small technical note….

The U.K. did not “own” Palestine. It had ruled over Palestine under a League of Nations mandate since the end of WWI, but the mandates were *supposed* to be a non-colonial setup.

Not that they ever were, of course. So to be even more technical, Britain did not de jure own Palestine, but it did de facto “own” Palestine.

And here we have a pretty classic example of why it’s pointless to try to pin a starting point (and thus “blame”) on any party in this situation.

I’m not going to get involved in the discussion right now (this sort of thread is no place for vitriol, and I’d probably be unable to stay civil), but just wanted to offer my condolences and say that I deeply regret your loss, Mal. I’ll pour a libation for your in-laws, while my thoughts are with your family.

sincerely,
~Niels

Someone‘s missed a tag…

JuiNoon,
Be a shill for Israel at a time like this, and you’re going to catch flak. As I said to Dan – it’s not easy defending Israel at a time like now.

Dan,
1)So you are condemning Israel’s strikes? Good. I’m glad to hear it.
2)I have no problem with the concept of a prisoner exchange, but ought there not be some sense of proportionality in the swap? By using the idea of proportionality in the current environment in explaining any action of Israel is offensive. What’s good for the gander not good for the goose? Do you see what I’m getting at? You say Israel should be given the benifit of porportional responses, while they are denying it in their bombing, a far worse subject matter?
3) Not on its face reasonable?? Ohhhh, sooooo sorry I misread your meaning. I thought you meant it wasn’t reasonable. Silly me! It just was “Not on its face reasonable!” Big difference.

You’re splitting hairs Dan. Debating the insignificant in order to avoid the moral issues at play here. If you’re done with me, that’s fine. I’m not done with you though if you keep posting your crap.

Bistroist – how did you know I would miss a tag? 🙂

Dan Says:
My point is only that the Palestinian demand for the release of more than 1,000 prisoners in exchange for one Israeli soldier is not on its face reasonable, and that it is not automatically appropriate for Israel to accede to such demands, even as a way to avoid fighting.

I say: WTF??? They kidnap them without cause, and are holding them indefinitely. I must be an anti-semite ‘cuz I think that statement is a load of shit.

I would tip my hat to you Dan for your next comment – I agree that it must be a regional solution that does not focus just on Hezbollah.

XeroMan,

First off, if you’re going LOL about one-upping me with an article about death, it sounds like you’re a bit too bloodthirsty right now. Remember that you and I are not enemies except in this argument and that I don’t relish the loss of any life.

Second, the article only says they were “targetted” in a quote by a member of the UN and makes no attempt to follow up its claim by talking to anyone on the Israeli side. The article was definitely written in language intended to stir up sympathy to the injurred and rage against Israel, but the emotional route doesn’t totally mask the fact that the point it made was that the warning was made and a few slow stragglers were unfortunately in the line of fire. Again, Israel is wrong for doing these attacks, but the article does not prove the minivan was “targetted”.

Third, as I said, Al Jazeerah may have non-Arab correspondants, but it is hardly a neutral news agency. Hell, I’d trust an Arab reporter for AP before I’d trust a caucasion Christian from Al Jazeerah. News agencies play to their base. If you want to make a point, find a neutral news agency to base your arguments on, not one that has to play to an ideological audience.

Finally, your follow-up post is the kind of emotion-based attacks that make debate impossible. You are just justifying my appraisal of your argument. The actions of the Israelis this week do not wipe the slate of decades of anti-Israeli bombings and rockets just as the bombings and kidnappings do not justify the method of Israel’s response.

I am not going to repeat myself in speaking against Israel just so I can keep the moral high ground because I’ve made myself clear. Israel may be wrong in this conflict but that doesn’t make Hezbollah right for their attacks, nor does it make Lebanon and Palestine right for not policing the terrorist elements inside of them.

JuiNoon,
I think you have a good heart, but you are sheltered. There is a lot more out there, and you should try looking at some of the other media outlets regardless. Hell, you can start with Ha’aretz to make it an easy transition. Dan on the other hand seems well informed, so therefore has chosen his world view with full understanding and awareness. JuiNoon, open your eyes and take in other sides… it may change your perception, it may not. But you will be a better person for it.

“GoatBoy, stop trying to help me”

I’m not sure what gave you the idea I was trying to do that. Franky, I’m pissed as hell at MdM right about now. Let’s just say that even the murder of my entire family by a black person would not be enough to push me onto a site I frequent so I could comment blaming it on all the “niggers” and “coons”.

Because that wouldn’t have been in me before the tragedy occured.

/just sayin.

My deepest condolences, MdM.

Goodness, emotional me. I should be as methodical as the IDF right? According to Dan I’m about as accurate! As for what the Israeli side is – you mentioned it earlier. They don’t comment on it, nor does American media. That’s why you didn’t know about it. This event is typical of what is happening in Lebanon. What Israeli side is there? The government position is that they will punish Lebanon for allowing Hezbollah to exist. It’s collective punishment bordering on genocide.

Silly me, getting worked up by people defending genocide. Oh wait, you aren’t. You just feel that people are unfairly picking on Israel!

And just to be clear – hatred for Israel’s actions does not translate automatically into hatred for Jews. At least not in my books. But there are plenty of people whose hatred has gotten a real good boost from recent events. Israel is doing a wonderful job of giving comfort to the Jew haters!

Dum dee fucking doo.

So, y’know what hasn’t been in the news recently? Iraq! Seems the U.S. managed to do that flight forward trick without even going to war with another country, because this little news article is a real doozey of a doozer.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article1193108.ece

An Iraq split into three different countries! Now, who were the ones who figured things would end up like this? Waaaaas it…. the nay-saying leftists who said it wasn’t going to work and that it would all end in a fragmented nation split into three new countries?

I believe it fucking well was!

Damn, and here I was really hoping I’d be proved wrong for once in this fucking administration.

Jeebus JuiNoon,
I reread your post, and you stated that the article was written to smear Israel? Is that what you are saying? How the hell can you write an article on that subject matter and NOT have it look bad on Israel? Wait – I’m sure there will be someone in the American media who does. I was wrong, you’re not innocent, you only see what you want to see. I see hundreds of dead Arabs and a city destroyed, you see Israel smeared and threatened.
This wasn’t a bomb released from a warplane flying by, or an artillery shell lobbed from miles distance. This was a missile from an attack helicopter. The van had a white flag on it signifying non-combatants. So what, the helicopter pilot scopes it out, sees the white flag, and decides it is some clever trick? Better to fire on the off chance it was militia than to hold fire and let them go? I sure the hell think that Goy has nasty overtones! Killing Goyim is somewhere between stepping on a cockroach and laying down rat poison for rodents. That pilot had the chance to ascertain the passengers were civilian, but he chose to blow it away anyway.

Can we ban the Ruppert now? Please?

It’s sorely tempting, but we swore a blood oath under a silvery moon never to ban anybody or delete anybody’s writing unless they were menacing someone else or asked us to do so….

Jiunoon, we do have common ground. We’re having this discussion on S,N!, not LGF. We are both saddened and disgusted by the violence. We are both powerless to stop it. We have come to this place by different routes, that have taught us to love peace the same, but to see militaries diferently. I have been the powerful military presence in a poor, oppressed land. And even when they were trying to kill me, I was learning that in a very important sense, they were the good guys. That power didn’t translate to wisdom, and greater firepower will not win the day.

They are a people whose unifying cause is the destruction of Israel (as opposed to the Israeli Arabs who hope to make Israel consider Arab causes)

But here’s the key point, at least to me. We’ve gotten too esoteric, too wrapped up in the daily political details, most probably because we’ve been watching the slow-motion political destruction of our own beloved nation, and beyond hollering and flipping the bird on political blogs, we have been powerless to stop America’s slide into authoritarian theocratic police-state rule. But please just think about this. I suppose it is true that all people have a “unifying cause”. A political/social tribal meme, if you will, that binds them. I’ll accept your description of the Paletinian’s unifying cause. And then I will say that it is beyond unimportant. These are people. They have jobs (in some cases), families, loves, children, pets. They’re worried about their kids. They’re wondering if that chick noticed them. They’re wondering if their co-worker knows it was THEM who farted. They’re just folks, and every day lives are the same all over the world. This is the reason I think travel is so great. It’s the cultural differences we go to see, but it’s the similarities that we learn from. And these people in Palestine? They have a lot on their plate. Getting food, water, health care and money is not as simple as it is in New York, or London, or Tel Aviv. There is SO much more to their calculations than politics. And to now have to become refugees, er, sorry, internally displaced persons, with granny and old blind uncle ahmed, with bombs falling out of the sky, roads and bridges out, and who will take care of them when they get there – wherever there might be? Or should they stay and take their chances in ground war?

No, my friend, we want the same thing, and cannot have it. Shalom…

mikey

XeroMan, your condescension is duly noted, but you sound like a PETA enthusiast trying to defend the Animal Liberation Front. Just because I argue with logic and not talking points doesn’t mean I’m shelterred and just because you argue with passion doesn’t mean you get it.

You throw around words like “genocide”. Palestine isn’t genocide and neither is Lebanon. You know what is a genocide? Darfur. And the big difference is that Darfur doesn’t receive international aid that goes into its leaders’ coffers or into suicide bombs and rockets. I noticed you didn’t attempt to deny that point of my earlier argument in your little “Oh isn’t he so cute and misguided” schtick. You criticise me for not looking at other sides of an issue but you have not once turned your microscope onto your side of the fence one lick while I continually denounce Israel’s recent actions.

I get that you think you’re the underdog in this fight because the US is so pro-Israel, but don’t fool yourself into thinking you’re a minority on the global scale. You use two pro-Palestinian newspapers – one involving an article that reads more like a sob story than a legitimate news piece – to justify your points and even then you couldn’t back up your argument with anything other than attacking my knowledge of the situation. I told you not to use Al Jazeerah because it is skewed and you call me a shill and, in so many words, anti-Arab.

You want to throw around your silly little conspiracy theories, fine, but know that you are just masterbating. I have given you more than enough evidence that both sides are guilty in this conflict and that the Palestinian situation goes beyond Israel but you want to hide in your little emotional hidey-hole waving bloody pictures as your defence. When you learn to argue a point with facts rather than emotion, maybe we can talk.

I told you not to use Al Jazeerah because it is skewed

(Way to internalize the right-wing framework, there.)

Mikey,

Again, we’ll disagree, but you’re right about the common ground. I just want people to try to see both sides as simultaniously guilty of and victims of a cycle of violence and it frustrates me to see so many good, reality-based people pulling up ancient rhetoric to try to make one side the bad guy.

Frankly, I tend to troll conservative blogs, but I’m so sick of their war-mongerring with this issue that I don’t even troll anymore. I want the Palestinians to have a safe, free society, but I believe that a small group of people on both sides profit too much from this chaos to allow it to be resolved. My problem is that I can’t, in good faith, condemn Israel’s actions to the proponants of this war if it means I turn a blind eye to those on this side of the aisle who just use this as an attack on the legitimacy of Israel’s existance.

GoatBoy, do you or do you not admit that people perceive Al Jazeerah as pro-Palestinian? If I used Fox News as a source, would you accept it? I have avoided calling people Ann Coulter on their ad hominem attacks, you can chill on the “you so right wing” rhetoric. Cool?

Pathetic response JuiNoon. Truly sad. Give me a minute, it takes longer to type one-handed. Let me brush up on my conspiracy theories. Christ, are you eating the same paste as Dan? Fine, you don’t like being backed into a corner. Face the facts though – you are trying to defend Israel no matter what they do. That is disgusting, and I’m calling you on it. As for waving bloody pictures – what the hell can anyone do to try to get through to your type? Hell, even bloody pictures you shrug off. I know it is tough to look in the mirror when someone grabs you by the scruff of the neck and forces you to look. I know that beating you over the head with the moral issues will only make you defensive, but I hope that later after this debate is history you might consider what you stand for. You can call any paper who publishes what Israel doing as Pro-Arab… some are. The rest are pro-humanity. Hello, this is a massacre. Not on the scale of Darfur, but then I don’t see anyone defending the actions of Darfur. As for your point that I don’t look at the other side, bullshit. I read a lot of different sources everyday, and I have made my choice as to where I think morality lies. I have denounced Hezbollah’s actions. In the face of bullshit such as yours though I have more important matters to address.

Finally – how fucking sick are you to suggest that I am masturbating to the carnage? That I’m getting off on what is happening? What kind of sick fuck are you????

Any paper that reports on Israeli atrocities in the occupied territories is Pro-Pali. Lovely logic there JuiNoon.

The difference between AlJazeerah and Fox is that AlJazeerah is reporting on facts on the ground. The fact that they don’t reflect well on Israel is too fucking bad. Have you even read AlJazeerah, or are you just spewing what you’ve been told? They are NOT the Fox of the Arab world. They have plenty of legitimate grievances and it is not biased to air them.

I didn’t call you right wing. I merely pointed out that “Al Jazeera BIASED!” is a well-worn right wing trope. Would you like to compare AJ to any other major media source in the arab world?

Al Jazeera is news. And it reflects where it’s from. I challenge you to turn on any local news in your market that isn’t objectively pro-US, then pro-North America, then pro-western hemisphere.

Relax. You are not at battle here. Perhaps not trolling the wingnuts for a while has left you with a hair trigger.

And MdM can still fuck right off for that bullshit yesterday. And anybody offering unconditional shoulder pats to someone behaving so isn’t far behind. Your grief doesn’t buy you free use of racial slurs (see this post.)

Wow, you totally misread the masterbating comment. I said that using conspiracy theories is masterbation – meaning it’s just to please yourself and it doesn’t accomplish anything.

Beside that, if you can read all the posts I’ve made and conclude I’ll defend Israel no matter what they do, you are completely overcome with your own prejudice. I have made my point and if you are so obsessed that you can’t see anything I’ve said, I can’t argue any clearer. You’ve made up your mind and nothing anyone says can get through unless it massages your preconceived notions.

Still, I think that if you take a step back, remember I’m a liberal too who was against Afghanistan, and reread what I’ve said without just hating me for defending the people you hate, you might see it differently. If not, go ahead and hate me.

Okay, GoatBoy, but that was my initial point that AJ does play to an audience. Same argument, but from opposite POVs.

Sorry if I’m jumpy.

So I hate the Jews now? Wow, I’m surprised you took so long to play the Anti-Semite card. Read what I’ve said. I hate what Israel is doing, and don’t hold it against the Jewish people. I would denounce anyone who would.

So I misunderstood you? You condemn what Israel is doing in Lebanon (Not saying you condemn Israel in general, just their current actions)? If so, then I apologize. If not, then you’re obfuscating the topic because you have no moral ground, and want to make this into a debate about me. Did you learn that trick on the right wing blogs you trolled? Can’t deal with the message, attack the messenger?

1)So you are condemning Israel’s strikes? Good. I’m glad to hear it.

Is that your problem? That I didn’t condemn the Israeli bombing of Lebanon as vehemently as you would like? I’m sorry, I didn’t get the talking points. What is the accepted language for discussing Israel today?

Please note that you accused me of “defending” the bombing without any justification. You have yet to acknowledge that you pulled that accusation out of your ass.

Jesus Herbert Walker Christ, didn’t we just go through this “you didn’t condemn fast enough and loud enough” bullshit with Deb Frisch and Mischa and Glenn Greenwald and whoever?

2)[me]I have no problem with the concept of a prisoner exchange, but ought there not be some sense of proportionality in the swap? [XeroMan]By using the idea of proportionality in the current environment in explaining any action of Israel is offensive. What’s good for the gander not good for the goose? Do you see what I’m getting at? You say Israel should be given the benifit of porportional responses, while they are denying it in their bombing, a far worse subject matter?

Apples, meet oranges. My comment about proportionality was in response only to the side discussion of prisoner exchanges. It was never directed at the question of the bombing campaign. Which — get your magic decoder ring out, XeroMan — has nothing to do with proportionality.

3) Not on its face reasonable?? Ohhhh, sooooo sorry I misread your meaning. I thought you meant it wasn’t reasonable. Silly me! It just was “Not on its face reasonable!� Big difference.

You’re splitting hairs Dan. Debating the insignificant in order to avoid the moral issues at play here. If you’re done with me, that’s fine. I’m not done with you though if you keep posting your crap.

Sorry, I don’t look at a proposed 1000-for-1 prisoner exchange and automatically say “Oh yeah, that sounds reasonable.” If there are circumstances that make it reasonable, so be it; but I don’t have your intimate knowledge of all the Palestinian prisoners held by Israel, so I don’t just assume that 1000 of them for one Israeli soldier is the appropriate exchange rate. (In the same comment, by the way, I also said that I am sure there are Palestinian prisoners who should be released without any “exchange.” But I guess it might be difficult for you to think of me as an evil Israel-shill if you actually read that part.)

Out of curiosity, just what conspiracy theories am I ascribing to?

Dan,
You criticize me for twisting your words…

Me:
Oh, and I love your reasoning that it is not reasonable to swap 1000 for one.

You:
Not what I said. I said it’s not on its face reasonable. Not automatically appropriate for Israel to agree to such an exchange.

Me:
Not on its face reasonable?? Ohhhh, sooooo sorry I misread your meaning. I thought you meant it wasn’t reasonable. Silly me! It just was “Not on its face reasonable!� Big difference.

You:
Sorry, I don’t look at a proposed 1000-for-1 prisoner exchange and automatically say “Oh yeah, that sounds reasonable.�

What the fuck was the point of you saying that I twisted your words if you turn around and restate it exactly as I described? You don’t think it’s reasonable.
****
You:
Jesus Herbert Walker Christ, didn’t we just go through this “you didn’t condemn fast enough and loud enough� bullshit with Deb Frisch and Mischa and Glenn Greenwald and whoever?

You’re comparing this to some dipshit blogger making inappropriate comments? You have a real sense of equivalency. Breathtaking, really. To be clear, yes you have to be explicit in your condemnation of Israel’s actions. Especially if you are going to argue both sides of the debate. Given the moral issues involved, you need to be pretty damn clear.

And MdM can still fuck right off for that bullshit yesterday. And anybody offering unconditional shoulder pats to someone behaving so isn’t far behind. Your grief doesn’t buy you free use of racial slurs.

I really don’t want to respond to this, but I think I have to. I’m going to try hard not to be emotional about this, and I hope that people who read this will indicate politely to me if I do get emotional. Here goes…..

The comment above is a really easy thing for a person who’s never dealt with a nasty trauma to say.

Several years ago, I was assaulted in my apartment at gunpoint. I was told pretty graphically what was going to happen to me before my assailants killed me. They enjoyed scaring me, I think.

They were black.

Obviously, I wasn’t killed, and the details of what did or didn’t happen to me are pretty irrelevant. What I can tell you is that in the days following this, I thought some pretty unkind things. I don’t think I said any of them out loud (although I was in shock for some time, so my memory is fuzzy), but I know I thought them.

Were anyone to judge me by the contents of my mind at that point in time, they would not come to very attractive conclusions about my character.

Cornering someone in a period of grief and shock and holding them accountable in some moral sense for the things they say doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. What hurting people need is a safe place to be human (with all the ugliness that often entails) for a little bit, with the knowledge that their grief will not be held against them when they are feeling better and saner.

It’s a damn shame we live in an environment that makes the racial slurs so easy to grasp when our better selves are overwhelmed by the immediate pain of a situation, but it’s possible to come away from such a revelation with an even stronger commitment to end the forms of inequality that create the poisonous worms that burrow into all our brains. I know it worked that way for me.

Now I admit that I am passionate about this. I’ve been posting in numerous locations, and walking from one fight to the next has me edgy. This shit makes me sick, and the last thing that I can tolerate right now is some pro-Israeli shill. Looking back over the comments, I realize that you don’t necessarily qualify as that Dan. My apologies. I admit that when you started to argue with me I assumed that you were just defending Israel. From there it just went down hill. I’ll adjust my perspective.

“The comment above is a really easy thing for a person who’s never dealt with a nasty trauma to say.”

Any easier than assuming that person has never dealt with a really nasty trauma?

I thought some pretty unkind things. I don’t think I said any of them out loud

Which makes your case different than the one we’re talking about. I can in fact be certain I wouldn’t have the knee-jerk racist response. Because I’m not fucking wired that way. Did your experience leave you as leery of Bernard Shaw or Bill Cosby as it did the young black males on the corner down the block? Because they’re all black, you know.

The liberal response is of course to feel sympathy for one who has suffered such a loss. But this is one liberal whose sympathy doesn’t extend to blaming it on all the kikes and hebes. (Not to mention, somehow, we at S,N! and Americans in general.) There’s not enough sympathy in me for that to be an understandable response.

A person in extremis is still that person at core.

And MdM has previously demonstrated a tendency to find things that are more…immediate not only not funny in themselves but also SO not funny that we should all stop laughing at any and everything indefinitely. Until MdM feels up to joining us in the yuks again. At which point it’ll be once more just fine!

JiuNoon, I just can’t see why you’re so determined to minimise the war crimes being currently committed by the IDF. I can’t see how you strengthen your main point by doing so.
You did challenge XeroMan for evidence:
I have heard nothing about attacking vehicles fleeing the south and would be interested to see your sources. The news I read… dealt with Israel telling the Lebanese to flee to avoid their attack, which seems a bit in contrast to the idea of attacking them as they flee. I mean, a bunch of people in homes seems an easier target than fleeing vehicles.
I’m sorry, this does create the impression that you have been avoiding reports of attacks on civilian vehicles.

XeroMan came back with the Guardian article (and somehow he refrained from saying Gotcha! or pwn3d!).
He could equally well have cited the Times:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2282992,00.html
where the key phrases are “Israeli helicopters attacked civilian vehicles fleeing Israel’s 11-day onslaught in south Lebanon” and “the evidence yesterday suggested that cars were being attacked regardless of their occupants and direction of travel.”

or http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_Mideast_Fighting_Dangerous_Roads.html
or http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0724/p10s01-wome.html
(which shares a correspondent with the Times article).

However, you rejected that source: the Guardian is a “pro-Palestinian newspaper”. The article “reads more like a sob story than a legitimate news piece”, and “does not prove the minivan was ‘targetted’.â€? Well, if you know a more appropriate word than ‘targetting’ for the act of aiming a guided missile at a vehicle and firing it, let us know. The phrase “stragglers… in the line of fire” is too close to ‘collateral damage’ for my taste.

Can you see why people find this infuriating, and accuse you of restricting yourself to reading only those news sources which tell you what you already want to hear?

In an echo of Jillian’s comment above– certainly the use of such negetivity both now and previously (i.e. “I hate Americans” and the various ethnic slurs) is very much a bad thing. Once the cooler head prevails (and hopefully it will), he should certainly apologize.
With that having been said, I refuse to offer condition to sympathy; to do so severely cheapens the sentiment (at least for me).
I am sorry that his reletives were killed, truly, even as a generally unapologetic American (and therefore one of “those” that are mentioned as “causing” all of this trouble). There are few, if any, people in this world that deserve the pain of losing someone in that manner.
I can only hope that once the initial pain subsides to where the rational mind is once again predominant, that the involved parties will recieve some wisdom from this tragedy, or at least some perspective.
I can appriciate that emotions are running high, but please, let us not devolve into LGFers or, God-forbid, Freepers. We are better than that, I know it.

Maybe my phrasing was inelegant. Sympathy is offered for the loss. It is not a big enough blanket to cover the racist bullshit nor the chiding of all of us here for laughing at anything at all as though we knew MdM’s family members (much less knew what had befallen them).

Let’s face it: US foreign policy results in at least a death a day on average somewhere in the world. And each one has family somewhere. Looks like we need to petition G!, B!, R! and T! to shutter this site that callously laughs while SERIOUS THINGS are happening.

Forget I said anything.

Just remind me to never turn to you for any sort of comfort if anything horrible should befall me.

It is not a big enough blanket to cover the racist bullshit nor the chiding of all of us here for laughing at anything at all as though we knew MdM’s family members (much less knew what had befallen them).

Perhaps it was inelegant, then– I concur that his response was inappropriate, and should be accounted for at some point, and that you are correct for calling him out on the absolutely inappropriate, and in many cases totally incorrect response. Sympathy and/or condolance should certainly be extended in the case in question, though it should be acknowledged that such sentiment is only applicable to the person’s loss and not a carte blanche for the poor behavior that accompanies the grieving process.
And your second point is absolutely correct– the world is a very big place, and a great deal of seriousness is occuring at any given time; “How can we laugh when [blank]?!” is a terribly foolish statement in any case, when something far worse has/will/is occur(ing).
Still, I find it to be well within the myriad of natural reactions for people, if not within the “reasonable” ones; I myself am a stoic in such regards (which probably bad for my emotional heath– I may shoot up a convinience store one day). I prefer to allow venting and confront after the cooler head has reasserted itself, but method does vary, of course, and I find nothing particularly wrong with your own behavior thus far in re: to MdM.
I think we have a great deal of common ground in this regard, and the tersity of the medium got in the way of immidiete comprehension.
My apologies if I misunderstood you.

I’m not going to insert my hands into the blender that is this “debate” on the nature of the conflict, and thus won’t comment on your posts in that regard so as to avoid getting dragged in.

Just remind me to never turn to you for any sort of comfort if anything horrible should befall me.

Better you should not present yourself as a spittle-flecked racist before doing so.

But yeah. I’m the cold-blooded fucker for noticing what was in a person’s head and had to be typed and submitted. Three stops before sharing “Kikes and hebes” with the world. Three deliberate actions between MdM’s head and our eyes.

But OK. I’ll wear the ass mask.

K&H – Mal de mer is a long-time commenter here, who has contributed lots of great stuff to the conversation. He’s just gone through a family tragedy of utter senselessness.

He’s angry and has a right to be.

Based on his past contributions and the friendships he’s made here, he deserves some slack until such a time as he is in a frame of mind to address the racist slurs he posted, if he chooses to visit S,N! again.

It ought to be obvious that no regular here endorses such racist remarks. I myself was shocked and angered by them in the previous thread, until I learned of his loss, which shocked and angered me even more.

So, you know, feel free to write MdM off if you want. Personally, I think there is a strong case to be made for extenuating circumstances surrounding his remarks; and I hope he will come back to S,N! in a better frame of mind to address what he said in a moment of deep despair.

A lot of people here have faith that this will happen, because they know MdM is NOT those rash remarks he made. And I think many refrained from going apeshit over them in the hopes that MdM would not decide it would be too shameful for him to return to S,N!

Xero- the thing is this place is no Likudnik haven- or neocon cheerleader zone, this is what is crazy. I think everyone here condemns Israel, but there are so many issues involved.

1) I think Israel has a right to exist.

2) Sadly, its existence as a Jewish state has essentially never really been recongnized and of course is probably a huge mistake allowed by the European powers because of their holocaust guilt/desire to get rid of their Jewish populations.

3) That stuff happened, so you can’t go back. Given that it happened we need to decide where to fucking start laying blame. Both sides are blameless, and I certainly denounce Israeli disproportionate response.

4) This response cannot be justified, but can it be understood? Hezbollah is not the PLO and Hezbollah has its own agenda. What is that agenda? Would Hezbollah merely continued to stockpile to force the issue with Israel? And how would H. have been disarmed? Should Israel have taken the risk of the some form of moral highground on this particular issue given the possibility of a massive conflict with Hezbollah later? I think yes. Some might say no and then they would give their reasons. I posit that Hezbollah has nothing to do with Palestinians at all, regardless of Israel’s very poor treatment of Palestinians.

5) The US has been atrocious here. They cannot decry a possible humanitarian disaster out of one side of the mouth and sell the bombs with the other. Rice has no credibility and her moves are entirely PR based. She is a disgrace to the world.

I couldn’t possibly support Mal’s slurs in response to what happened, however I can easily understand it. That said, the conflation with Israel and the Jews as a people is exactly how the Israelis are referred to throughout the Arab world. They are “the Jews” and “the Jews” should be killed. This is the basic attitude. This attitude can never be accepted if the region is to function at all.

The Israelis have sold their soul for their existence. The question is, has it been worth it for them? I cannot emphatically claim “yes.” This is terrible. How can Israel exist yet step back from this precipice?

“he deserves some slack”

That’s a whole fuckload of slack, right there. It might be a load and a half.

“So, you know, feel free to write MdM off if you want.”

I might and I might not. But I wasn’t going to whistle blithely and avert my gaze. I said it before: this can’t come out of one’s head if it isn’t in there already. Bad vibes, boys and girls.

BradGavRetardoTrav:

Would right about now be a fantastic time for a new post?

Oh, jeezus keyriste’s tits in a mason jar, people!! (Gawd I love that phrase. If I could say that to saint peter before he bitch-slaps me to hell, I’ll gladly suffer eternal torment and call it even.) *Ahem* Anyway, folks, c’mon. This has gotten beyond silly. If you can’t understand someone behaving badly in extemis then I really wonder about the life you’ve lived. Or you’re looking for some kind of gotcha. Jeez, I kinda felt like this was a “community”, and Brad and Gavin and Travis and Retardo and Seb let us hang out in their living room, flinging poo and laughing, ’cause we’re all pals here. You guys need to go to your room without supper.

If I had to atone for the intemperate things I’ve said and done in or immediately after blood was shed, I’d never be able to do anyting else. Think about the part they never show you in the movies. The field, after a night battle. The dead are mostly collected. There are little piles of battle dressings here. Little piles of brass over there. Little piles of entrails, with flies buzzing around here AND there. The relief troops look all clean and pressed, and the medevacs are methodically taking out the wounded. After you get some water (or booze. Goddam, you might even find somebody with a bottle), load some magazines (hey, how OVER is it really?) and pester the navy docs for some darvon, you wander around. Look over the NVA dead, maybe something cool to be scarfed, but probably not. Those cheapass brass star belt buckles ain’t worth shit. Finally, you find yourself sitting with some guys from your platoon, or at least your company. Your eyes feel like they have gravel in them, and you want a joint and some fucking sleep, but you take a half hour or so to brew up some coffee and talk about last nite. Who got hit, who did some crazy ass shit, who racked up some body count. Who did we hate? Pretty much every fucking body. From Nixon and Mao down to Lieutenant Story and the fucking dead gooks stinking up the place. We hated, angrily, verbally, viscerally. Two or three hours before we were killing – our blood wasn’t really up anymore, but it would be easier to shoot someone then to let them annoy you with bullshit. Hell, even the officers knew better than to come around – we saw a few journalists, and the Seargents ain’t afraid of any damn grunt, but here’s the point. When somebody goes thru some heavy shit, they’re gonna be angry, hostile, violent and rude. Your role, as a friend, is to continue to fucking BE THERE and support them, even if they lash out at you. And if you can’t understand that, and won’t deal with it, you ain’t a friend, you’re just a guy…

mikey

Xero, you’re paranoid. I said prejudice, you think anti-Semite. Obviously, I was referring to your pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli prejudice (since that’s what we were talking about) that you obviously have, but you so wanted to think I’d make it personal, you jumped to a huge conclusion. Again, that’s why I can’t argue with you, because you’re such a reactionary that you take everything as a personal slight.

Herr, I freely admit that I had not heard about the targetting of minivans, and if it’s true, it’s an atrocity. I commented that the VERY FIRST source he went to is one that is tailorred to his point of view, meaning he obviously doesn’t travel outside of circles that agree with his world view. My point about Fox News is that you can’t try to convince someone by using an emotionally-charged, one-sided article from a news source that is obviously slanted to one side.

Although, of course, it is all a diversion from the fact that my point from the word “go” was that it is not a one-sided conflict, it did not form in a vaccuum, and to claim that one side is guilty of “ethnic cleansing” (which is a great example of what I call Xero’s conspiracy theories) basically ignores half of the problem and allows one side to make continuous, unobstructed attacks while punishing the other side for retaliating. I’m not saying who started it or that Israel is right (I’m so tired of explaining that) but it is a bipartisan shitfest.

I will not claim that Israel has no legitimacy as a nation just because it is doing the horribly wrong thing right now, no matter how hard the pro-Palestinians try to convince me. The Palestinians have committed daily attacks on Israel for years and nobody seems to be denouncing their right to a nation other than the extremists on the other side (Republicans). I don’t agree with either of you and I won’t apologize for saying that they are all guilty and that the Palestinians have a history of undermining their hopes for peace. If that makes me a bad person, so be it.

Pinko Punko:

BRAVO!! Goddam, man, I KNEW there was more there than Emus. You are my new hero. Thanks for the voice of reason…

mikey

wow.

just, wow.

my 2 cents?

Bill Kristol is a dick

Oh, and Jewish New Yorkers are to blame because Neil Simon is, in fact, a god.

Are we trying to resurrect the Long Thread here?

no, but somebody said Israel in front of some liberals* and it’s suddenly like a room full of economists talking about the estate tax.

hillarious stuff

* myself included

No, Doc, this is a new beast entirely– the long, angry thread of irreason.

I’m so sorry for Mal de Mer’s loss, though I don’t know him/her…I’m sorry…

(I don’t think anything else is relevant for this thread.)

“Your role, as a friend, is to continue to fucking BE THERE and support them, even if they lash out at you.”

Still here. A friend also tells a friend, even in extremis, to Cool It With That Shit. Looks like MdM has more than one kind of friend around here.

“Pretty much every fucking body. From Nixon and Mao down to Lieutenant Story and the fucking dead gooks stinking up the place. We hated, angrily, verbally, viscerally.”

I have no doubt you did. Amongst each other. I’m going out on a limb here but I’d wager nobody was composing missives home at that exact moment.

And you’re talking about shit you SAW, shit you were IN. Here, we’re talking about getting a terrible phone call. And there’s precious few of us here who haven’t gotten one just like it. Maybe without some handy kikes and hebes to blame it all on, but still.

I believe that everyone should stop now…the occasion of this post commends greater sympathy than y’all are showing. Why not let it go, and leave this post with some kind of condolences for all involved. And then…move on.

Goat Boy! Stand Down! Let’s give it some time. When the shit runs hot, either somebody has the balls and the class to walk away, or nobody does. It’s on you, man. Take a deep breath. Plenty of time to fight. Let’s see if there’s a way not to fight. You got the sand to try that?

mikey

I can get behind that. All possible condolensces to MdM for the horrible loss.

/exit Goatboy

JuiNoon, you’re a fucktard. My Pro-Pali, anti-Israel position? You insane, homicidal piece of snake shit. This is about simple humanity. You accuse me of having blinders on? I was the one who had to point you to a major news event, which you tried to spin. You’re fucking disgusting. And the grand conspiracy I hold is ethnic cleansing? I jerk off to that? Again, you’re sick and pathetic. If you actually gave a flying fuck to read about what is happening you’d realize that it is ethnic cleansing. Israel wants southern Lebanon cleared by any means possible. You feel like I hate Israel because I am tearing a strip off of you, an Israeli defender. Too fucking bad you sick steaming pile of vomited refuse.
I’m not paranoid, I’m sick to death of little shits like you. Fucking hypocrite, have you even looked at the videos coming out of Lebanon? I doubt it – it would upset your beautiful mind. I’m sure you have seen many pictures of rocket strikes in Israeli cities though. I have. Been following both sides of the story. And yes, when you say “reread what I’ve said without just hating me for defending the people you hateâ€? that sure the hell sounds like you say I hate the Jewish people. Which, for your information, is Anti-Semitism.

You say:
“allows one side to make continuous, unobstructed attacks while punishing the other side for retaliating”
Seriously, you didn’t even read the article above about the Israel officer killing the 13 yr. old girl in cold blood. Nah, that is anti-Israel. Can’t you see why I think you’re a fucktard, fucktard?

Also, you’re a fucking fool for refusing to even consider other sources, for the very least you should be following what you’re opponents are seeing. You shrug off all the negative stuff, well hello! Those images, those videos are shaping world opinion. You are a typical dumb fuck who sticks to what you know and what you want to hear. Don’t fucking lecture me you shit licker.

Now, how was that for taking it as a personal slight? Really, I’m not mad because you’ve insulted my pride, I’m furious that you are even trying to defend Israel, and spouting the crap you are. On this thread no less. Did you see the video at the top? You do remember what the point of this thread is? I admit I’ve played a large part in this little war, but Christ almighty I wouldn’t push Israel’s point of view on a thread dedicated to someone who just had people they know killed by them. Your sick fucking crusade to protect Israel’s good name infuriates me.

Some viewing for you JuiNoon… propoganda to be sure, but you might want to watch it for the other side!

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/GRAPHIC_Images_of_suffering_death_on_0719.html

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/VIDEO__Lebanese_Doctor_Says_Phosphorus_0724.html

These I came across in the span of a few minutes during my normal wanderings. Like it or not, this is what the world is seeing, and it doesn’t make Israel look very nice. Yeah, it is propoganda, but the bodies are real, the shattered lives are real. How are you going to spin that?

mikey – how about throwing a “stand down” at old XeroMan while you’re at it?

I’m gonna regret this. I know I am.

Pinko Punko:
That said, the conflation with Israel and the Jews as a people is exactly how the Israelis are referred to throughout the Arab world. They are “the Jews� and “the Jews� should be killed. This is the basic attitude. This attitude can never be accepted if the region is to function at all.

And it’s that idea that poisons the fucking well. Israel is so thoroughly not The Jews, but every fucking Jew on Earth has to answer for what Israel is doing. Our entire people, whether Zionists or anti-Zionists, whether Israeli or members of the Diaspora, are blamed for everything Israel does. Everything Israel doesn’t do. We’re accused of being traitors in our own nations if we support Israel, and traitors to a nation many of us have never seen if we do not.

And it’s a belief that’s not only perpetuated by the Arab world, but by Israel. By the Western governments that support Israel. If you are a Jew and you do not live in Israel, you are either an exile or a spy. It’s the same fears of the medieval era, transported into the 21st fucking century.

mikey:
Y’know, I love what you say most of the time, but can you cut the fucking “Chinatown” bullshit? Mal de Mer slurred not Israelis, but a specific subset of Jews who’re, as far as I know, not involved in any IDF strategic planning. And I want to hear an explaination for why he thinks they’re responsible for the crimes of Likudniks and the IDF.

My problem is Mal, in his grief-stricken rage, didn’t lash out at say… oh, I don’t know, Israeli kikes and hebes. No, that’d make sense. It’s the New Yorkers who’re to fucking blame. I want to know what the fuck he meant by blaming New York Jews for the crimes of Israel.

That’s all.

I second DA– the shit is too hot for this utterly pointless argument.

Pinko,
I know that Sadly, No! is no haven for neo-cons. But you would be surprised at what some lib blogs are publishing, on both sides of the issue. At the current time my sympathy lies with the Arabs, though I don’t hate Israel. I hate what Israel is doing, and I think that it will make things a lot worse for them. In normal times I feel sympathy for Israel – they are surrounded by a population that hates them. The situation is much more complicated than that of course, and there is no easy solution to it all. Personally, I think it may have been better if the Allies had carved off a chunk of Germany and given it to them. Maybe worse, maybe not. I don’t think that Europe would be as unstable a haven as the Middle-East. Again, that is just off the cuff. I can understand that Jews would probably not want to settle on German land… then again maybe they would. I can’t speak for them.

Really, as I said, there is no simple solution for Israel. They are facing a demographic trend that is not in their favour. The constant threat of violence makes it hard for them attract foreign capital, hurting their economy. If Israel keeps on the path it is on, the reasonable people will flee, leaving only the fanatics. If that happens, then Israel will commit worse atrocities in a desperate attempt to preserve their state. It is not a pretty picture. It is starting now. I think ethnic cleansing is a fair description of what they are attempting. At the very least they ensure the continued instability of Palestine.

Yes, this has been an ugly thread, and that is unfortunate. But I will not back down in the face of such appalling lack of regard for human life.

mikey – how about throwing a “stand downâ€? at old XeroMan while you’re at it?

I reached out where I felt like there was an open mind, one that was looking for an answer. I honestly don’t feel like I can get thru to xeroman. Wish/hope I’m wrong.

Patkin:
I’m confused. You want people who are hurt by loss to have some kind of directional discipline? What, PDF stakes in the blogosphere? You don’t measure their pain by how they respond, you hold them and give them drugs and offer sad, quiet promises that it will all be alright, and you let time heal the worst of the pain. Crist, you people act like you have no experience with this…

mikey

Mikey, send your message, I’m listening. I can’t find anything that you addressed to me previously…

MdM’s response to all this reminds me of Charles Johnson’s response to 9/11.

I hope I’m wrong, and I’m sorry for MdM’s loss.

mikey:

Yeah, I kind of fucking do. I’ve watched a fucking country I believed in go unhinged by a trauma that took place five years ago. I’ve had to listen to every blatant fucking anti-Semite crawl from the woodwork because “The Jews!” (Israel) are commiting war crimes, and just telling me it’s the Jews, the Jews.

So you know, I’m somewhat less enthused about the idea of just letting people shake it the fuck out. I’m not passing a judgement, I want to know what he fucking meant.

If wanting fucking information about someone blaming any old fucking Jew for the crimes of Israel harshes the healing process, well, excuse the fuck out of me.

reading you guys makes me unmeasurably sad.

It’s like you’re a living illustration of how fragile peace is.

Xeroman. Here’s my problem. Maybe you can help me with it. I tend to agree with most of what you say. In many ways, we see the Israeli/Palestinian problem in much the same light. If I may offer one small suggestion. You tend to offer a strong political argument, and you’re up out of your chair ready to mix it up with people who don’t get the horror that the IDF is visiting on the Lebanese People. Listen a little more. The other side (no, not the LGF wingnut side, just the side on our side that isn’t on your side – I had fun writing that phrase) really cares about lives and and wants some kind of peace. Or doesn’t, but calling them on that is a non-starter. Back off the strident tone, understand that other folks have valid opinions, and try to understand what they are really trying to say. Have the charity to accept their position, and the strength to try to make them understand, and live with the outcome.

mikey

Patkin,
There is a distinction between Jews and Israeli policy. In fact some of the most vocal critics of Israeli policy are Jewish. So spare the talk of Anti-Semites crawling out of the woodwork. As for your cry of dismay that people are shouting “The Jews!â€? (Israel) are commiting war crimes, and just telling me it’s the Jews, the Jews” Somehow a 10 to 1 ratio in civilian deaths make Israel’s warcrimes of greater import.

Fine, Xero, I’m a sick, inhuman fucktard because I won’t call for the destruction of the nation of Israel. You win. I’m a sick, inhuman monster. I’m a little shit. I’m a fucking hypocrite.

For the record, though, I never called you an anti-semite as much as you may want to believe I did and I already explained that I mean masturbate metaphorically. I am not going to try to out-yell you because you have far more hate in your heart than I do and you want to take personal offense to anything I’m saying even when it’s not intended. I don’t know you, I frankly don’t know if I’d want to now, but I don’t know you well enough to attack your character.

If you want war, you have it in the Middle East right now. And, in the end, Israel will be punished for its actions here. I hope whatever satisfaction you are looking for can be found there. I, however, want peace, and I’ve been following the conflict well enough to know that peace cannot be earned by condemning one side and apologizing for he other. Maybe that makes me naive, but I have the clean conscience that comes from looking at both sides of an argument, seeing the flaws in both, and deciding that neither side is truly right but both deserve better than what exists.

And, with that, I’m done arguing with you. Continue to call me names or bait me if you want, but I won’t bother answering anymore.

XeroMan:

You’re a fucking punk. I am talking about genuine fucking Nazi fucking skinhead anti-Semites. Not your piddley shit, but the real fucking deal. National Alliance, Stormfront fucking whackos. They’ve been on this website before, declaiming Israeli war crimes because it fits their wants to see the entire Jewish people, not just Israel, dead. They support Arabs merely because it is ideologically in-line with the baseline goal of killing a group of people they fear controls everything.

Don’t use me as a fucking talking point. Don’t use me as a point about your fucking activism.

I don’t give a shit about Israel. I’ve said before that I want the entire Knesset thrown out of office for commiting themselves and the IDF to a level of human misery inflicted upon other members of humanity, in a blatant spit to the eye of why there even is an Israel now. They’re not just war criminals, they’re traitors to what “Never Again” fucking means.

So fuck off and stick to warring with JiuNoon.

Mikey,
I agree with what you say, and admit my debating style here has been very combative and not conductive to a real resolution. As I pointed out to Dan, I was spoiling for a fight and took any contrary view as support for Israel’s policies. I did look back and apologize for that. I don’t feel the same way about JuiNoon however. Ignorance is frustrating, especially on something such as this. I admit that I can’t verbally beat it into someone’s head, but I tell you, sometimes it just feels good to unload on whatever fool sticks their neck out. I do pride myself on being able to listen though, and if a person asks to reduce the heat in a nice way I will almost always comply. Hell, numerous times in the past I’ve played the same role you are playing now (hard to believe, I’m sure). Obviously I’m not capable with this topic. I’m not ashamed of that though – if someone is going to get enraged, I think this is as good a topic as any. It really is appalling… But on the other hand, as Pinko Punko stated, this is not a Neo-Con haven. To be honest, the last thing I was expecting today was to come to Sadly, No! and get involved in this. It really is wiser for lib blogs to avoid this issue all together – it is tearing the left apart. It is clear online. The right are unified on this topic (Israel does no wrong, ragheads deserve it…), but the left is going at each other viciously because we expect other progressives to see the moral issues with a certain clarity. The case is not an easy one though.
All that being said, I’ll stand down now. It has become personal, and I take a large share of the responsibility for it. I think JuiNoon is a fucktard, but I am open to changing my mind. I don’t expect him to give me much reason to however. If he does, I shall tip my hat and let it drop.

JuiNoon… a truce. Calm down and in one post state your position. I’ll listen.

Patkin – Am I supposed to feel bad becuase I’m not a Nazi skinhead? I guess my piddley shit is not good enough for you – you want solid hate for you to feel vindicated. Well, can’t help you there…

XeroMan said,
July 25, 2006 at 3:33

XeroMan, that was way out of line. I happen to think that JiuNoon’s perspective on this issue is all screwed up, but so what? That’s what the Internet is like, it has done more than any invention since moveable type, to screw up people’s perspectives and protect our opinions from collisions with uncomfortable evidence.

Agreed Herr Doktor. That is why I grabbed a beer and mellowed out.

Vindicated… are you seriously that deranged by this subject that you think I measure my self-worth by what kind of anti-Semite hates me and wants me to die?

Nazi skinheads are using this war as more proof that they’re right and that “The Jews” are evil. Because if Israel does it, we’re all in the meetings voting for it. They’re ignorant, blind, stupid bastards and quite frankly, I hate them like I hate few other things in this universe (except maybe black licorice).

I don’t give a shit what you feel. You are not my fucking concern. They are, and their positions are being supported and strengthened by people that don’t know any fucking better.

And this used to be such a happy-go-lucky blog, too. Damn you, Israel! Damn you, Neil Simon!

Hey Patkin, grab a beer, and chill. Unless you need to vent more. I totally understand letting the rage work its course though. lol…

Jeez, whether I like it or not I apologize unconditionally to JuiNoon. I was a total ass.

And in case you’re too blinded by trying to argue with JiuNoon, my response that you think I’m “vindicating” myself with was about “Spare me the anti-Semites crawling out of the woodwork”.

I don’t mean you. I don’t mean people supporting Lebanon. I don’t even mean people arguing against Israel. I mean, flatout fucking anti-Semites who are coming out of the woodwork because they can’t tell the difference between Israel and every other fucking Jew in this world..

Incidently, I don’t drink. And I am trying to be rather civil, it’s just y’know, I curse a lot.

I see that now Patkin, and I admit it was my bad… you can understand given the debate I was in that I misunderstood you? No hard feelings. I can see how skin heads and their ilk would use this to their advantage, and it makes me sick. It is frustrating to see Israel hand them a propoganda coup. I prefer a more balanced veiw myself, but I can’t find it now.

lol… I do drink, and often. And I smile a lot when I drink, and hug people. I don’t curse often (again, hard to believe, I know). So we’re total opposites. That’s cool man.

Fine (although, again, why you tell me to calm down when I never cursed you out I don’t know…)

I will lay out my main issues simply and, frankly, I don’t think they’re insanely right-wing:

1) I do not care who started the conflict, but acting like there hasn’t been daily bombings in Israel for years is disingenuous. It is the continuing strike/retaliation cycle that has led to this, not a single action on the Israelis part or a single kidnapping by the Palestinians and Hezbollah.

2) While what Israel is doing is horrible, I will not argue that Israel should not exist because of its actions.

3) While I lament the position of the Palestinian situation, I think a large part of it is thanks to leaders like Arafat who either pocketted all international aid money or used it to buy more weapons. I also think that the number of times he walked away from the table when his advisors thought the deal was fair is a sign he didn’t want peace at all.

4) I will not say that Israel should not fight back because it has better weapons. I will definitely denounce guided missiles aimed at fleeing minivans, no question, but what has happenned in the past week is not typical of the situation and there’s no free shots just because Hezbollah needs more rockets to do the same damage. Neither side should be shooting them in the first place.

5) I take issue with the ethnic cleansing concept because, as has been said, Israel is largely Arab and other religions and the only ones bombing them are people on the other side of the wall.

6) I am sure the majority of the Palestinian people don’t want to fire rockets into Israel, but Hamas and the rest of the Palestinian authority have made no effort to police their people to keep them from attacking and kidnapping Israelis. In fact, when Israel first asked the Palestinians to find the people who kidnapped the first soldier, they were defiant. That is not the will of the downtrodden Palestinian people, that is the fanatacism of the people in charge.

7) I don’t react to dead body images. I know they are horrible – they are dead bodies – but they are strictly intended for emotional reaction and do not make any point other than “people are dying.”

8) And lastly, I only argue because I do see a purpose for the nation of Israel (which we can debate seperately) and, for all the sufferring Palestinians, there are also grieving and terrified Israelis who equally do not want this continued violence. I also know that much of the rest of the world feels that Israel was a mistake and will look for any excuse to claim it doesn’t deserve to exist, but (and I apologize for bringing religion in) Jews do need one country where they do not have to worry that the population will turn on them if there is a depression (as in Germany). If you think I’m overstating it, go to Media Matters and see how many times Bill O’Reilly or Michael Savage gets away with denouncing liberal Jews (sometimes forgetting the liberal part) even though most Zionist Jews are Fox fans.

And all fo this brings me back to my first point that you can’t resolve this situation by just bashing one side and ignoring the actions of the other. Maybe the two will never live in peace, maybe they have no reason to want to, but whatever their govenrments do, how do you tell countless people – displaced Arabs on one side, Jews (many of which fled persecution from Russia and Africa) on the other side – that because of their governments’ actions, they are no longer allowed to stay in the only real home they’ve ever known?

Sorry if it’s a bit long, but I kinda felt like I had alot to say and it couldn’t be boiled down into short statements.

The thing that really gets up my nose about all this shit, is that it is so unnecessary. After kidnapping/capturing/taking prisoner the Israeli soldiers, Hezbollah’s leader Sheik Nasrallah said that the only way that the Israelis were going to get them back was by indirect negotiation and his calling it Operation Kept Promise suggested that he was serious. And lo and behold, the Israelis appear to have requested that the German who negotiated the last swop now try to arrange a new swop. Why the fuck didn’t the Israelis call the Germans in the first fucking place!!!!!!!!

A third element of a peace package is release of prisoners. According to reports yesterday, Israel has approached the head of Germany’s foreign intelligence service to try to broker a deal. Israel Radio said the government had asked Ernst Uhrlau to act as a mediator between Israel and Hizbullah. Germany’s foreign ministry refused to confirm the reports. But Mr Uhrlau enjoys credibility with both sides and was responsible for brokering a spectacular prisoner exchange in January 2004 between Hizbullah and Israel.

It is time for monkeybrains to call Olmert and say “OK–he’s had enough.”

No, long is good JuiNoon. When we are breif then misunderstandings are more frequent. I agree with you on most points.
1) Agreed.
2) Agreed.
3) Agreed, but I would point out that the peace talks haven’t been great for both sides.
4) Very much agreed – neither side should be shooting. That being said, targeting civilians are wrong.
5) I see things differently here obviously. I think Israel is trying to wipe southern Lebanon clear. It will clear Hezbollah yes, but at a terrible cost.
6) Actually, I think the majority of Pali’s do want to fire rockets into Israel. They hate Israel. On the other hand, who did Israel ask to help them find the captured soldier? The Pali government that has been destablized by Israel not giving them their tax money? They weakened the Pali government, then were surprised that the Pali government couldn’t/wouldn’t help them.
7)The point that people are dying is the entire point. Sorry to say, but it is this type of thinking that will enrage people. We’re talking about human life. I wouldn’t tell people that the images have no effect on you – it looks really bad.
8)I agree there is a reason for Israel. Why I react with so much anger is beacuse I don’t think it is to wipe out civilian populations. Yes there are Jew haters out there. You can’t reason with racisits though. I would suggest that now is not the time to fight this fight. Emotions are running high for a lot of people. and until Israel comes to its senses defending her history is not going to go over well with those appalled at the humanitarian crisis.

Well, that was more reasonable. Again, I apologize for being aggresive and rude.

Now on a lighter note….

http://www.endofworld.net/

Goodnight all.

Just two quick comments, nothing too negative.

6) Palestinians receive almost as much aid from the US as Israel, not to mention the European nations. They have money, they just choose to keep it from the people. Hamas has cash that, if it truly wanted to stop the fighting, it could have put towards turning its eyes inwards. Again, not laying all the blame on them, just saying it’s not quite that cut and dry.

7) I’ve also seen places I’ve been to in Israel in the news after having been exploded by a suicide bomber. It’s a bit of a jarring experience. But, on the other hand, I have not taken these images or the stories of dead congregations and turned it into a justification to condemn all Palestinians. I do not need to show images of the dead in Iraq to prove that the war was a horrible catastrophe.

For the record, I hope we’re all cool, even if you don’t understand where I’m coming from. The one thing that can be said about the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts is that they tend to bring up the bad blood and, realistically, we are not the war mongers here.

XeroMan: Your stand-down is appreciated. Thank you.

I probably won’t say this well, but I am tired and even with several hours of break, this thread wearies me more. But I think that I, like a lot of American Jews, am terribly conflicted about Israel. I deplore warfare and violence, and it is cringeworthy at best to watch the actions it has taken over the past two weeks in Lebanon. You think, “My God, that can’t be happening. My people could never do that, certainly not after what they and their parents and grandparents have been through!” And you read the Dershowitzes and the Kristols and the fucking Atlas Pams, and they are all “Go get ’em, IDF! Wipe ’em all out!” and you think “Holy fucking shit, how do you call yourselves Jews?”

At the same time, you hear a steady drumbeat of anti-Israel commentary (on a good day) and vitriol (the rest of the time). Two drumbeats, actually, in a kind of crazy half-syncopated rhythm: one from the antisemites — both the neo-Nazi skinhead type as well as Iran and the other Islamic hardliners, from whom you expect that sort of shit, but amped up like Chihuahuas on coke now that there is something real to latch onto; and the other from people who are otherwise generally with you on most political issues, people you normally consider allies, but who now seem to take the side of a group whose entire existence has for decades been preoccupied with and predicated on the elimination of your people. And you are leery of joining them in protesting Israel’s policies because so many of them seem to want to go far beyond denouncing current events and actions, to want to blame all the woes of the Middle East on Israel — or worse, by extension, on the Jews as a whole.

Worse still, in the back of your mind, Israel is still the place for hope. Hope for a peaceful homeland for a culture that has always been the Stranger, and has endured beatdowns and oppression and attempted genocide as a result. It’s the place where you would like your kids or grandkids to be able to go for their bar and bat mitzvahs, to reconnect with thousands of years of heritage. And you fear that between the ones on the outside who hate us and the ones on the inside who hate those others so much they are willing to become them, there are too many people working too hard against a solution for that hope to ever bear fruit.

Gah.

Dan Someone:

Y’know, despite my anti-Zionist feelings, you’ve done an extremely good job of outlining my basic conundrum of religious/geopolitical life. I think that that is, at least for we Jews on the left side of the aisle, a summation of the conflict each of us has to deal with. Worried that we’re either turning into the enemy, or worried that we’re betraying our people somehow by even having this conflict.

Dan Someone, Patkin — this sudden outburst of calmness and reason has me worried whether I’m still reading the same thread. Damn those holes in the time-space continuum.

And now let’s all have some pie!

The tragedy of war would be greatly diminished if everyone was just armed with pies.

Hey guys: we’re all gonna get laid! :cue music:

My condolences to MdM and family. I look forward to his return when he feels like it.

Both the anti-semites and Likudniks base their arguments on the premise Isreal = “the Jews”, so that opposition to one is hatred of the other.

This fits the purposes of Dershowitz and Ahmadinejad equally, and it is critical that this dishonest premise be rejected.

As an American I have no defense against MdM’s anger. First we fuck up Iran, leading to the fundies taking over, then we give the Likudniks a blank check. Sure, the dispute in Palestine is an old and intractable one, but the present insoluble mess would have been impossible without America’s unique contributions.

I want to thank everyone for agreeing to disagree and talk the thread down. Regardless of all the cursing and craziness in the middle, I feel like I can end the day with a little less angst. Let’s just think about the dead on both sides, and think about Mal’s loss and forgiveness for any transgressions. I haven’t seen the comments that everyone has been talking about, but I think right now it doesn’t matter. It matters in the long run, maybe, but not now.

Much respect all around. I’m serious. Thoughts with Mal and family.

Good morning all,
I give a hearty amen to the toning down, and feel ashamed for my escalations last night. These last posts are excellent, and truly Dan your post in particular is a very good one. I think we’re all cool here JuiNoon. This is a truly awful conflict, and it is tough because it is so deadly, yet there are justifications on both sides.
I think the only solution is to air drop massive piles of weed over the Middle East and smoke everyone out. Then set up some all-beef hot dog stands where everyone can come together and answer their craving for street meat together.
Cheers!

mikey, you humanist you. well done.

It bothered me to see this posted here. It wasn’t my intent to have my family’s grief highlighted this way, although I can appreciate why it was done. I apologise for the anti-semitic things I said, especially to Jiunoon, for whom I have the upmost respect.

This is a hard time for a lot of people.

I’ll take your name off it if you want, Mal.

It’s ok, It’s all anonymous. Thanks, Gavin. You’re a saint.

[…] With those ground rules understood (though they may need constant repetition to get through to the more slow-witted of my readers), here are my thoughts on the current situation. First, the tragedy of this whole situation was that Lebanon was finally starting to emerge as a shining example of a moderate Muslim democracy after years of Syrian domination. Certainly, the Lebanese have no love for Syria because of this. Yet at the same time, there was significant support for Hezbollah – to the point that even if the Lebanese army could possibly engage Hezbollah with any hope of success (which they couldn’t), to do so would’ve invited a civil war, something that Israel most definitely does NOT need. Israel squandered a perfect opportunity to win the hearts and minds of the Lebanese people – all they had to do was a psy-ops campain suggesting that supporting Hezbollah was playing into Syria’s hands – if they wanted to be truly free of Syrian control, they must reject Hezbollah. But by bombing the crap out of every square inch of Lebanon, they have hardened the hearts of the Lebanese against them, given aid and comfort to Hezbollah, and effectively weakened their security. […]