Can any rock drummer legitimately blaze past this shit? I don’t know, man. It makes you feel bad inside.

Earl Palmer? Ziggy Modeliste? Maybe…

That’s pretty cool, though I generally frown on anything that encourages drum solos. Hurts that much more to see it done right.

Keith Moon?

Yeah, Keith Moon, if anyone. those two are my percussion heroes, and I’m not even a drummer.

Not rock, but Buddy Rich (percussion hero– Dancing Men was my High School Jazz Band’s signature piece).

Damnit, GuinnessGuy … I was just downloading the Kermit vs. Buddy Rich video and was going to comment. I saw him in my high school auditorium once … the guy was insane.

Keith Moon’s an interesting case, in that he was playing more or less entirely by instinct and was in the perfect band for what he was doing…but yeah, by and large, rock drummers got nothing on jazz drummers. Check out Roy Haynes on…well, anything, but my favorite is “Hoe Down” on The Blues and the Abstract Truth.

whoops, Animal, not Kermit. It’s not easy being green.

Keith Goldfish Solo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9oW1sBm7MY

A Quick One (This is my fave, the Who in their prime)

Krupa and Rich played a few “drum duels” in various venues. There are some lucky folks that actually have copies of them. Both were interviewed together in 1956 for Voice of America Radio, and the interview was published in Metronome Magazine. An excerpt of the interview is here.

http://www.drummerman.net/buddy.html

“Can any rock drummer legitimately blaze past this shit? I don’t know, man. It makes you feel bad inside.”

If the answer is yes, could they do so while wearing a tie? Geez.

Can any rock drummer legitimately blaze past this shit?

Dude, Neil Peart!

That’s tight. wicked tight.

Neil Peart has studied Buddy Rich, and can maybe hold his own. He’s got like eight times as many cans though.

Phil Collins eats it.

Keith Moon is the only rock drummer who would look like he’s having as good a time though. Krupa looks like he’s totally rocked on that jazz.

lots of them can, e.g. John Bonham

Reni from the Stone Roses. Hands down.

Dude, Neil Peart!

Get back to the Institute for FDP! Canadian lover!!!!!1!

Stewart Copeland! The John Updike of rock drummers.

I can’t believe it’s gone this far without someone mentioning Bun E. Carlos.

Well, yeah, I guess I can believe it.

Bill Bruford. But he now describes himself as a jazz drummer so maybe he doesn’t count.

Any of the jazz gods could pwn any musician in any genre anywhere in the world: Charlie Parker, Mingus, Bill Evans, Clifford Brown, etc. Maybe Mozart or Bach could keep up. They don’t make them like that anymore.

Lurch, there are quite a few Rich/Krupa “drum battles” floating around on the net. Not just P2P; check out the Buddy Rich tribute sites. They’re good fun that only a drummer could love. Buddy loved Gene, so usually he’s holding back a little. But Buddy being Buddy, sometimes he didn’t. We’re talking some major ass-kicking here.

I was gonna say Neil Peart too, but then remembered that Rush doesn’t rock.

(ducks and covers)

Simon Phillips comes to mind as well, come to think.

A video of Krupa and Rich doing battle.

Keith Moon, if you haven’t heard.

Before everyone dumps their list of rock drummers, let’s run through some jazz drummers that easily eclipse Krupa:

Tony Williams (my vote for greatest drummer ever)
Elvin Jones (err… Also greatest drummer ever)
Max Roach (okay, a three way tie)
Art Blakey
Roy Haynes
Danny Richmond
Kenny Clarke
Paul Motian
Andrew Cyrille
Billy Higgins

That’s just off the top of my head. To be sure, there are great rock drummers, but jazz is by far the most demanding music on a drummer and I cannot think of a single rock drummer that even comes close to being in the same league as the above names. As for Krupa and Rich, great technicians but not exactly groundbreakers. When it came to technique, Rich was far superior.

Yeah, but Krupa could hook you up.

That was very cool.

But we must be on our guard, because the Islamofascopercussionists are out there and they are coming to take away our sticks!

Bassem Yazbek , who wrote and performed THE drum solo, the one everything else is compared to (Tablat Bassem or “Bassem’s drum”)
Omar Faruk Tekbilek works his evil behind one of America’s foremost classical guitarists in the “A Passage East” track
And the American-born Susu Pampinin gives us a frightening look into what these Islamofascistpercussionists have planned for our daughters.

Is there anything worse than Jazz drummer aficianados?

Answer: No

Kidding, I love this thread. But it is kind of like metalheads ripping non-techinically insane non-wankers.

I knew there would be at least a fe Canuckofascists in this thread before I even clicked on it. Any greatness of Peart’s drumming is more than offset by Geddy Lee’s nasally whine. Talk about a WATB.

Also, there were three people in my high school class who loved Rush. One is now in TN being a carpenter (so much for his hockey career); another went into the Air Force and made a baby or two; the last one became some silly ass Randoid. Which brings me to my point- what the hell is it with the correlation between Rush and Ayn Rand?

Todd Says:

“Before everyone dumps their list of rock drummers, let’s run through some jazz drummers that easily eclipse Krupa:”

They “easily” eclipse Krupa?

OoooKaaaayyyy….

I’m sure there’s a simple matter of personal taste at work here, but that’s kind of flippant. Gene Krupa is one of the best jazz drummers of all time,as the clip provided shows. No one, absolutely *NO ONE* “easily eclipses” Gene Krupa as a jazz drummer.

Interesting that so many people mentioned Keith Moon. Wikipedia sez that Krupa was one of Moon’s influences. Of course, Wikipedia could be lying again :-).

“i’m sure there’s a simple matter of personal taste at work here, but that’s kind of flippant. Gene Krupa is one of the best jazz drummers of all time,as the clip provided shows. No one, absolutely *NO ONE* “easily eclipsesâ€? Gene Krupa as a jazz drummer.”

Er… have you listened to those top three Todd put on his list?

All three of those could do ANYTHING that Krupa could do, and Krupa couldn’t do half of what they could. In fact, Krupa wasn’t even neccesarily the best drummer of his time, but being the drummer for the hugely popular and of course excellent Benny Goodman’s band he has gained legendary status that is a bit over what he deserves. While Goodman’s band certainly was swinging, the music isn’t nearly as sophisticated, and the band isn’t nearly as talented as, say, Duke Ellington’s orchestra. How many of you know the names of Sonny Greer and Sam Woodyard though? Goodman’s band was better marketed and more popular because of the racial divide in early swing, and that popularity has hung on even though the people who think Krupa and Goodman are the greatest certainly aren’t racist. But as a working musician, I can tell you that when I play for people who grew up when this music was popular, they equate Glen Miller and Duke Ellington as equally great, which is absurd from a musical standpoint.

I mean, the clip isn’t THAT impressive, he plays some rudiments. It’s not particularly musical and it’s not even that fast. Kind of a watered down version of the snare drum solos from Blast.

My theory would be that musicians improve the longer a style is around. Classical musicians of today are far superior to those of even one hundred years ago because of Conservatories and general better music education and the same could be said in part about jazz musicians. We admire older musicians often for their innovations and certainly the music still touches us, but musicans of today are still making innovations, and have fully absorbed the innovations of the past. Chris Potter is a better and more complete musician than Lester Young. Herbie Hancock is better than Jelly Roll Morton. One thing that makes modern drummers not only technically more proficient (in terms of independence of their limbs) but also more rhythmically and musically proficient is the inclusion of Afro-Cuban rhythms into their playing. That’s just one of many many reasons why Tony Williams *easily eclipses* Gene Krupa!

Todd: your list is sorely lacking in present day drummers! Bill Stewart, Brian Blade, Billy Kilson, Jeff Ballard and Jack DeJohnette are the ones that spring immediately to my mind, but I’m sure there are probably 10-20 more on the scene today that you could lump in there. By the by, a lot of those drummers are very heavily rock influenced and often play various fusions of jazz and rock. Joshua Redman’s Elastic Band for example.

Ooo, ooo, and don’t forget your hip-hop drummers! ?uestlove is a GREAT drummer!

Enough drum wankery for tonight!

Classical musicians are better at pretending to be tape recordings than they were a hundred years ago, sure…

Mo Tucker.

Rodney Holmes

Which brings me to my point- what the hell is it with the correlation between Rush and Ayn Rand?

Like many people, in their early twenties, the members of Rush read Rand (see songs like “Anthem” and albums like 2112). Like most people, they grew out of it. In one of his recent books, Peart says that he was more attracted to Rand’s beliefs on artistic freedom and not necessarily to her political beliefs.

Pinko Punko said,

Kidding, I love this thread. But it is kind of like metalheads ripping non-techinically insane non-wankers.

Wrong. The correct answer is anyone who says Neil Peart seriously when you’ve got John Bonham available for a choice.

My fave Jazz drummer was that dude in “That Thing You Do”. I don’t know why he decided to be in that new TV show, he was a good drummer.

And don’t forget the kid that played the bucket in that old Levi’s commercial. He rocked.

As a few commenters have pointed out, even within jazz there are widely disparate styles. Tony Williams, who is in fact a helluva drummer, is known for his post-bop and fusion work. Krupa was almost entirely swing. Being the horn player (bad jazz trombonist) that I am, I was grooving on not just the sound of Krupa, but the tightness of the horn section – you gotta be subdividing like a mofo to nail the and-of-4 like that with no kick from the drums in those two breaks.

quann – good catch on the Afro-Cuban thing. And mentioning Blast! – I’ve done horn arrangements for drum corps off and on for 10 years, and thought the folks behind Blast! did a decent job. Plus, I never get tired of hearing “Malagueña” – Stan Kenton/Bill Holman as filtered through 32 – 64 brass.

WF

Quann, yeah I know. I lean towards free jazz drummers like Hamid Drake, Susie Ibarra, and the great Han Bennik, but I suspect most people on this list might find them too abstract. Maybe not Drake, but certainly Ibarra and Bennik. Other great drummers working today would be Joey Baron, Tom Rainey, and Nasheet Waits. I can name drop with the best of them, but eventually we’re just core dumping our “jazz snobbery” databanks. Yeah, I a jazz snob. I make no apologies for that.

People who think Krupa and Rich are “great” jazz drummers are like the people who think Charlie Watts is a “great” rock drummer, think the Eagles are a “great” rock band, or think Forrest Gump was a “great” movie. Nice middlebrow stuff sure, but hardly “great.”

One day, if I devote my life to it, and study really really hard perhaps I’ll have an opinion worthy of vanya’s consideration. Ok, probably not.

Gavin thanks for the Video linky. It was a blast – nice energy – nice theatrics – nice drumming – and great fun!

Actually, Charlie Watts is a great jazz drummer stuck playing rock. (I really can’t figure it out: the Stones have the best rhythm section in rock, a great rock guitarist, and a decent vocalist–but they generally sound like sh*t live [“a garage band playing Stones songs” is generous].

I can’t believe it took over 12 hours for someone to mention Maureen Tucker, who is the only rock drummer this side of Mickey Hart who ever understood the value of silence.

Bill Graham said he once booked several bands whose drummers were known for long solos at the Filmore East. To balance this, he booked Buddy Rich as the opening act. Amazingly, there were no long drum solos played by the main acts that week.

Two more points: 1) the video quality is incredible; and 2) watching the video makes me incredibly happy.

vanya_6724. Not so fast. Krupa perhaps was a jazz musician in the same way that Glenn Miller was a jazz musician. But leave Buddy alone. He was not just a “look at me, look at me” show-off finger-rollin’ solo takin’ drummer. He played on Charlie Parker with Strings and before one of you non-musician punk ass poseurs denigrate that album lemme just say STFU. He’s not my hero or anything and in fact has a reputation as a rude bastard but any cat who can play that well deserves respect.

He played on Charlie Parker with Strings

He also played on the great Lester Young album with Nat King Cole. He’s not in my top 50 guys to listen to for inspiration, but he was a real musician.

Man, all you cobagz in this thread, all this talk about drummers, and nobody mentions Tommy Lee??? Doods, he played UPSIDE DOWN!!! Who else did that?

Just Sayin

mikey

Kenny Clarke!

Point taken, I really am being unfair to Buddy Rich just because he became an overhyped clown in his later years. But though he did have a period where he was excellent, still wouldn’t rank him with Roach, Jones or Blakey as an overall creative force.

I love the Stones but I still don’t get Charlie Watts. Maybe he just doesn’t try that hard. People cover for him by saying “he’s not technically great but he swings!”. No he doesn’t. Listen to the Stones live – Keith swings and Watts is a stiff time-keeper. You could take the drums out and the band would just sound tighter. In the rock world no-one touches Bonham.

And youtube is pretty amazing. Here’s blakey, Jones and Sun murray dueling it out:

Opinions may vary. Folks who play and have studied have a different take on what constitutes excellent or even transcendant musicianship. Doesn’t make ’em right. Just better informed. Whenever I start to get on my high-horse about music I try to remember that thing that Twain said about Wagner’s music being better than it sounds. I don’t mean Porter Wagner (Wagoner).

Billy Cobham

“Which brings me to my point- what the hell is it with the correlation between Rush and Ayn Rand? ”

As a lifelong Rush fan, I respond.

Rush’s earlier espousal of Rand led to some of their best and worst songs, even to the point of anti-charity in the abyssmal Cinderella Man.

Ultimately, their Randism came from the right place – they really believed in the power of people. You see it all throughout their music – people can do anything. It wasn’t the justification of greed that most Randoids use it for. They loved individual freedom and resented any controls over it, being young having little experience

But they grew up. Now they are very far from the lone wolf /Randoid lyrics – they still love the power of people to achieve great things, but respect that organized people and governed people are capable of great things. Hell, they practically wrote a love song for the space shuttle.

The last Randoid song was probably on Hemispheres, like 1977 or 1978. Unfortunately, its the anti-union “The Trees”, which is really good, musically.

Their newer albums are filled with themes of people pursuing their dreams, taking chances, overcoming hardship, enjoying freedom, taking responsibility, being smart, honest, and good. Which is to say, all of the positives of their earlier core beliefs, without the absurdity of Randian selfishness.

Aren’t you glad you asked.

Neil Peart is God. Yes, he’s got a big set, but in his solos he can go off on just a snare, a bass, and a few cymbals forever. OR weave a complicated and every building rythm on like 20 of them.

Vanya – Agreed.

Ustad Zakir Hussein.

He shreds your stick-swingin’ pussy drummers.

Listen to “Biotechnology” from Tabla Beat Science’s 2000 release “Tala Matrix”. Hussein sounds like he has 10 arms, but plays the whole thing on the 2 drums of a tabla set.

As they say “Smoke that bhol!”

Also, Trilok Gurtu is pretty awsome. (Another Tabla Beat Science musician. If you love drums, get Tala Matrix. Now.)

Don Henley was also a badass.

Johnny Carson played a mean trap kit.

Someone once pointed out to me that jazz drummers tend to be more musical than rock drummers. The test is this: As you listen to the drum solo, keep the melody/theme of the song in your head. With a jazz drummer, you’ll hear the melody and variations and excursions, all taking place in the solo, and it all coming back to the theme. With a rock drummer, you’ll get more of a bunch of beats and rolls that aren’t really connected musically to the song that it takes place in. It may be fast, may be technically impressive, but just not that musical.

What makes a drummer great in my book is the musicality of the playing more than the technical prowess. There are some supposed great jazz drummers that leave me cold, just ’cause I don’t think what they’re playing is more masturbatory than musical, at least on a particular performance.

That said, it’s really subjective – hard to quantify musicality, but I know it when I hear it. And it’s a matter of taste.

Oh dear, my favorite topic.

Krupa was a great showman, but nobody could touch Rich for chops. Then or now. (Rich could literally do more with one hand than Krupa with two.) Not Louie Bellson, either, who was better than Krupa. (Although Krupa endears himself to you by having said something to the effect that he imagined he was beating his father’s brains in whenever he played.)

BTW, for clips of them all, including one of Rich playing upside down, and another of him having a “drum duel” with Jerry Lewis, go to drummerworld.com. Fabulous site.

Danny Seraphine w/ the horrible, horrible Chicago is great. Equally great, in a completely opposite way, is Levon Helm, if you really want to know.

I love Stewart Copeland as the John Updike of drums. I don’t understand it, but I love it.

More: Keith Moon was the Jackson Pollock; Tony Williams was the Kandinsky, Ginger Baker the Albers, oh never mind.

These days: Dennis Chambers; Joey Baron; Roy Haynes (who brings a rock-ish conception to jazz), and everybody’s fave, of course: Steve Gadd–who, on a tribute to Rich, plays one of Buddy’s big band arrangements and sounds ridiculous. If you can imagine that.

Overrated: Max Roach. And (sorry) Krupa.
Underrated: Richie Heyward (Little Feat); Dave Mattacks (Richard Thompson); N’Dugu

Great Brazilians: Erivelton Silva, Robertinho Silva (I’ll shut up in a second), Paulo Braga, Wilson das Neves, Joao Cortez, Rubens Barsotti, Teo Lima, Tutty Moreno…what? Yeah, I’m done.

Or am I?

I’m probably older than all of you lads put together, but if you want to talk about “influential,” you have to add: Hal Blaine. And Jim Keltner. And, as someone said, Sonny Greer. And Chick Webb and Papa Jo Jones.

Also nice: Peter Erskine. Dave Weckl. Pretty Purdie. TS Monk. Terri Lynn Carrington. Duduka da Fonseca. Jojo Meyer.

It may just be me.. but does it sound like he’s tap dancing in the beginning of this? When he’s listening to the sax?

Ah, Todd has name dropped us all out of the water! Han Blennick can get more music out a Dutch Clog (literally) than most rock drummers can get out a rack of 8 toms and 12 cymbals. (anyone ever notice that there is often, not always, but often, an inverse relationship between the size of a drumkit and the drummer prowess?) His house is decorated with abstract art that he has created from every drumhead he’s ever worn through or broken!

Han Blennick!

Krupa was a great showman, but nobody could touch Rich for chops. Then or now. (Rich could literally do more with one hand than Krupa with two.)

Ding! Wrong answer but thanks for playing! Carl Palmer leaves Buddy Rich in the dust, chops wise, in addition to being able to play a variety of tuned percussion at a high level. Check out ‘Toccata’ from Cal Jam on the recent DVD to see Palmer in action. It’s not hard to understand since Palmer is a huge Rich fan. As a special added bonus, Palmer used to do a stunt where he’d pound out a rhythm on the bass drum, play two huge Paiste gongs with either hand and ring a huge bell he found in Switzerland by grabbing a string in his teeth. Good, clean fun.

Buddy Rich: Why do you rock drummers always play 8th notes on the hi-hat?
Carl Palmer [firing right back]: Why do you jazz drummers always play triplets on the ride?

Gack, Tony Williams. I appreciate the technique but I hate the way he just swamps some of the other players at times in the second great Miles quintet. He sometimes reminds me of the drummer from the Muppets who just starts banging away in the middle of a song. [ducks and runs]

Other fine straight-ahead rock drummers: Topper Headon (The Clash) and Pete de Freitis RIP (Echo & The Bunnymen).

Eric “Stumpy Joe” Childs!

if you want to talk about “influential,� you have to add:

Chano Pozo

I don’t have a dog in this fight, being a fan of Krupa, Rich, Moon, but I do want to register my extreme appreciation at your having a thread about muscians someone past 19 has actually heard of. Thanks again, and do, please continue to by aforementioned persons’ recordings. Also, how come nobody mentioned Chick Webb? Great drummer, great band leader, and, especially, discoverer of Ella?

[…] Hey, wait just one second here. It’s that Krupa video we posted. Brad, did you leave the subspace mind-control wave generator on last night again? That thing totally romps on the electric bill. […]

Gack, Tony Williams. I appreciate the technique but I hate the way he just swamps some of the other players at times in the second great Miles quintet. He sometimes reminds me of the drummer from the Muppets who just starts banging away in the middle of a song. [ducks and runs]

Good idea. The Miles stuff with Tony on it is some of the greatest music of the 20th century. If I were you I’d try to figure out why, or stick to the prog rock clown show shit and leave off opining about real music.

If I were you I’d try to figure out why, or stick to the prog rock clown show shit and leave off opining about real music

Fuck off. I’m pretty sure I know more about how music works than you do, unless you can write 12-tone fugues and orchestrate for 110 piece orchestras like I can. Tony Williams RUINS many a MIles cut by overplaying and swamping the soloists. I love that quintet but he’s the weak link. I like his later stuff because he calmed down from his 19 year old self.

“Real music”? Who the fuck are YOU to decide what that is? Pompous tool.

I was going to slam you too, but Tony was a bit overbaring on some of the second quintet sides, although he nails it on Nerfertiti. I also think he did just fine on the Plugged Nickel live dates.

The best Tony Williams is found on Don Pullen’s New Beginnings, a trio date with Gary Peacock. A 19 year old Tony Williams would have been hard pressed to swamp Don Pullen.

Fuck off.

Hey, you asked for it. You can’t compare someone like Tony Williams to a muppet while praising frigging Carl Palmer and not expect to get slapped down. That’s just the way it works.

I’m pretty sure I know more about how music works than you do, unless you can write 12-tone fugues and orchestrate for 110 piece orchestras like I can.

Doesn’t mean shit to me, sorry.

Tony Williams RUINS many a MIles cut by overplaying and swamping the soloists. I love that quintet but he’s the weak link. I like his later stuff because he calmed down from his 19 year old self.

Obviously, Miles didn’t think the tracks were ruined by Tony’s playing or he wouldn’t’ve released album after album of them. But you know best.

“Real music�? Who the fuck are YOU to decide what that is? Pompous tool.

Well, I’m a professional musician. I’ve paid my dues in the field. But it’s not like this is even controversial. The 60’s Miles stuff is some of the best music ever largely because of Tony’s playing, and prog rock is dreck, a joke. Everyone knows that.

:Pumps fist:
Fight fight fight fight fight!

My hubs is all upset because no one is showing worship for Dave Lombardo of Slayer. After watching some YouTube bits, especially with Mike Patton, I am impressed. And I’m not even f’ing metal. woot.

Damn… well, the back cover quotes Stan Lee (purportedly)–
As far as the genre goes, I suppose I agree with him: the sample tends toward “nice and affirming” if not terribly useful for a non-evangelical Prot audience to see as far as “conversion” goes. Still funny if enjoyed ironically, though.

Fuck– previous comment re.s wrong post; I’m just a tad buzzed from lunch, so that refers to Jebusian Manga deal as seen above on the page.
Time to lay down, methinks.

Ringo Starr??????

I personally like neil peart. Not JUST because of his “speed” his “chops” or drumming persay but because he has both and a good bassist and guitar to back him up. He is a good lyricist too. Buddy rich has WAY MORE talent tho.
Just my opinion

Lets put it this way and get down to the brass tacks. Like him or hate him Buddy Rich was and still is superior to all the other drummers out there today and yesterday. What made Rich so dynamic was his technique and the way he approached a drum set. By this I mean he could take a basic drum kit and play so interesting. Buddy never bored you as listener or fan, Buddy Rich could come up with ideas behind a set of drums that were mind bogling. You saw him once you saw him twice or a zillion times you thought he would play the same same same. Wrong Buddy Rich would enthrall you and beg you to play more. To Sum it up what you are hearing today is the same patterns the same Rock Beats and the guys out there have to put extra earings in their noses and ears and more tatoos. Thats A joke. Buddy Rich came on stage no special effects no special lighting no two bass drums just the very basic set of drums and out played all of them past present and future Buddy Rich