Fuck Yoo [updated below the fold]
John Yoo, that is — America’s premier torture lawyer, and the legal technician responsible for the demolition of the Geneva Conventions. (Wikipedia link here, because the cites are so well in order.)
Iraqi: Soldiers killed in ‘barbaric’ way
AP – 22 minutes agoBAGHDAD, Iraq – U.S. forces on Tuesday recovered the bodies of two American soldiers reported captured by insurgents last week. An Iraqi defense ministry official said the men were tortured and “killed in a barbaric way.” Al-Qaida in Iraq claimed responsibility for killing the soldiers, and said the successor to terror leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi had “slaughtered” them. The claim was made in a Web statement that could not be authenticated. The language in the statement suggested the men were beheaded.
Because where’s the moral high ground now? When we most need it?
Update: Can we guess what the moral imbeciles over at Little Green Footballs and other such places might be saying about this? Yes, that’s right. That’s exactly what they’re saying.
The sick freaks at Daily Kos are gloating: Daily Kos: So our boys were tortured – how quaint.
Here’s the Kos quote, from a diary by Occam’s Hatchet. Note that the term, ‘quaint,’ as applied to the Geneva Conventions, is from a memo by Alberto Gonzales.
The bodies of the two captured U.S. soldiers were found in Iraq – bearing signs of “barbaric torture.â€?
How quaint.
I hope Alberto Gonzales and John Yoo will sleep well tonight, with visions of those boys’ bodies and the horrible barbarities inflicted upon them dancing in their heads. Perhaps Gonzales, and Yoo, and Rumsfeld and Bush will be able to envision the same inhumanities being visited upon their family members and loved ones as they drift off to peaceful slumber.
This cannot stand. We cannot allow this administration and its incomprehensible defense of and support for torture in violation of the “quaint� Geneva Conventions to remain.
The chickens have come home to roost. As ye sew, so shall ye reap.
I weep for my country, and for the families and loved ones of those in Iraq and Afghanistan, those yet living and those already dead.
Peace.
And here’s a representative LGF comment — not the meanest nor the stupidest, nor the one easiest to pick apart, but a fairly reasonable one.
#50 girl_next_door 6/20/2006 07:56AM PDT
Geez, it’s so clear that the Kos Kids, for all their “noble” speeches, and “high” values, are really only in it for making a political point. They have no virtue. They have no mercy. They have no sympathy. The horrors and atrocities in the world, the grief and sorrow of others, only serves (in their own minds) to prove them right. They’re selling their souls to the idol of their own correct judgement.
How sad for them when someday they discover that their golden idol was created by themselves, and is really just spraypainted wax.
Note to moral imbeciles, and to those who are merely confused, but who listen to moral imbeciles:
[going into retro-HTML mode, excuse me a moment]
It is possible to be disgusted and enraged by barbaric acts committed against Americans, and to take responsibility, as an American citizen, for destructive, dumbshit policies enacted by our political leaders.
As American citizens, we don’t have oversight on what other countries do, or what non-state entities like al-Qaeda do. We have oversight on what we ourselves, as a nation, do. That power is by no means unlimited, and in fact it’s eroding at a frightening rate at present. But only criticizing OTHER PEOPLE, only attacking others, obsessing only about the badness of those outside the tribe (as Bill Whittle likes to call his self-selected coterie of wingnuts and scattered historical figures) is no better than animal behavior.
Even jackals — literal Canus spp. jackals — do that, growling and baring their teeth at those not in their specific little pack of consanguinous scavengers. Insects do it. It’s not terribly advanced or intelligent.
Of humans — of ourselves — we ought to expect better. In fact, we ought to expect much better.
In Halliburton’s wallet, of course.
Moral high ground? I’m sorry, but there are no MHGs in Iraq; they were shipped to Syria in secret.
MHG? Nah, George doesn’t like that, gives him dry mouth and a terrible headache.
Hah, silly moonbat! Our moral high ground is self-evident! Because we are Americans and Judeo-Christians and mostly white! And the other guys are not.
Plus, FR33333D0M!!!1!!!!!
/wingnut
I wish I believed in Hell, then I could imagine Bush, Cheney and everyone responsible for (and cheerleading) this mess burning and getting their deserved punishment.
As it stands, they will get *no* punishment for the atrocity that is Iraq.
You must remember that the current metric for measuring our morality is that we’re not AS bad as the other guys.
Sure, we torture people, sometimes to death. And they torture people to death. We kidnap people and hold them without any outside contact, just like they do. We rape people with Glo-Sticks, and, well, they don’t do that. We make them perform homosexual acts, and well, they don’t do that either.
But they BEHEAD people!!! And we don’t do that, so we’re morally superior!
As long as we torture people, I think that we have little moral authority in claiming the actions of the Iraqis to be barbaric.
Not to go all biblical on ya, but is anybody else thinking Hosea 8:7?
7 For they sow the wind,
and they shall reap the whirlwind.
mikey
The Geneva conventions are there to protect our troops, too. We’re not following the Geneva conventions, so why should the enemy? Hypocrite fucks on the right will still claim moral high ground, no doubt. Cue Gary any second now with the Official Wingnut Talking Pointâ„¢ about the beheadings. What do you got, assbag?
Actually, they’ve already claimed the moral high ground over at Red State. And they’re all so outraged they’re gonna run right out and enlist….what? What’d I say?
From WaPo review of Suskind’s new book
And so, Suskind writes, “the United States would torture a mentally disturbed man and then leap, screaming, at every word he uttered.”
We liberals still have the high ground, because we opposed torture from the start.
Gav, I think you’re misinterpreting the LGF commenter.
You see, in Chazmo’s Playhouse, stuff like this:
They have no mercy. They have no sympathy. The horrors and atrocities in the world, the grief and sorrow of others, only serves (in their own minds) to prove them right. They’re selling their souls to the idol of their own correct judgement.
… is the ideal they live by, at least in general, and therefore must be complimentary. Right?
(yes, yes yes… this is of course sarcasm).
Yeah, much like the Muslims who killed themselves in Gitmo, our opposition to torture of all stripes and varieties (but especially that endorsed by our ‘leadership’) is part of an asymmetrical attack on Right-Wing mores.
It’s our application of what we see as correct judgement (otherwise known as ‘values’) which makes us so dangerous to the plastic patriots over there in crazyland. And as things inevitably explode and unfurl exactly in the way we warned against, they hate us even more for being right. O, how we are cruel.
Jay – they don’t just hate us for being right, they hate us for having the nerve to say that we are right. See, real patriots don’t point out how right they were. Unless they are right wingers, and then they are morally compelled to say when they are right, or else the troops will lose faith, and Islam will have won.
Not by any means the best comment so far–most of them are pretty infuriating. But I do like this one:
Chief Airdale 6/20/2006 08:17AM PDT
These sick bastards [that would be the likes of us at S,N! and Daily Kos] have no place in civilized, western society. Let them take their hate for America and their love of socialist dictators to some, “People’s Republic”. I am frankly, fed up with their attempt to have this country capitulate to moon worshipping pigs.
Time to buy more ammo and go to the range.
And it’s time for me to go serve my moon-worshipping pig overlords.
“Chief Airdale” huh. what are the odds that he actually served in uniform?
I guess a civiled society is where one spews on the internet about his hatred for his fellow countrymen, and then attempts to slip in some eliminationist asides in the end. That is so civilized.
Oh, that was nothing, Kathleen. Many of them were out-and-out “they don’t deserve to live” kinds of comments.
These sick bastards [that would be the likes of us at S,N! and Daily Kos] have no place in civilized, western society. Let them take their hate for America and their love of socialist dictators to some, “People’s Republic�. I am frankly, fed up with their attempt to have this country capitulate to moon worshipping pigs.
Time to buy more ammo and go to the range.
GOD this shit pisses me off. One. Because we disagree on the direction of American foreign and economic policy, they say we hate our nation. That is obscene. I say they hate America much more than we do–they are objectively destroying it. Two. When we say there was no need to invade and occupy Iraq, just exactly how does that equate to wanting our nation to “capitulate” to moon worshiping pigs or anybody else? Newsflash, asshat–we on the left LOVE our country and its constitution and will defend it with our lives. But we HATE war and don’t believe it is the best solution to any problem. Three. I know you’ve heard it from me before, but here we go again. Anybody who talks tough, tells you they’re gonna beat you up or shoot you or burn down your house is a harmless coward. They hope to scare you because the alternative, if you don’t back down, is they are exposed as the frightened little boys they are, at least outside of a mob. The guy you gotta worry about will never say a word–he’ll just know where everybody, the door and the car are at all times. Four. Its mykeru all over again. Many of us on the left enjoy our firearms and shoot regularly, and some of us even competitively. What we don’t do is brag about it to strangers, use our hobby as some chickenshit little tool of attempted intimidation, or imply death threats against people who disagree with us on politics. Some of us have seen enough violence in our lives–some of them still think its really kewl….
mikey
I LOVE socialist dictators! AND moon-worshipping pigs! Man, it’s like that guy’s known me my whole life.
Just for the record, I don’t think the gun thing was a threat–I think he was implying he got so worked up that he had to go to the range and blow off steam. But then, I’m a pie-eyed moon worshipper, so what do I know.
Holy shit, 10+ years on the various and sundry internets, and I finally see a legit use for the BLINK tag. Ummmm, wow.
Just for the record, I don’t think the gun thing was a threat
Sadly, No! They do it for three reasons. First, to preen and pose as the tough guys we already know they aren’t, because, well, they love war but can’t seem to find the opportunity to serve in one. Second, they are saddled with their preconception that The Left ™ is all a uniform batch of gun-grabbing, anti second ammendment commie hippie peaceniks. It would take a genuine understanding of their community and their nation and a certain amount of imagination to realize that not all gay people are interior decorators and not all african americans are good tap dancers either. And third, they do it as an implied threat. The background is “you people keep up your traitorous, homo-loving, America hating commie ways and WHEN the culture war turns hot, we’re gonna be there to mow you down like the sick dogs you are”. It does no good to pretend otherwise, their worldview is based on Tom Clancy video games and Saving Private Ryan…
mikey
Let them take their hate for America and their love of socialist dictators to some, “People’s Republic�. I am frankly, fed up with their attempt to have this country capitulate to moon worshipping pigs.
Never mind the content, of the comment … I sit in awe of the Chief’s Groganesque command, of the comma.
Torture is bad when they do it, but not when we do it. Mourning for undeserved death is right and honorable and justice against the killers should be assiduously sought, except if the dead were innocent Iraqis. And moral relativism is a serious flaw in Liberalism.
Hahaha. Ahhh, I love it when right wingers try to intimidate lefts with gun referances. Oh noes! Not the Boom Sticks! They’re so loud an scary!
I was unaware that being self-critical and trying to push for intelligent usege of the armed forces makes you an anmerica-hating wimp.
And yeah, mikey’s right, that was totally a threat. Better up my timeframe for that .357sig P226 I’m wanting.
Hey, Some Guy:
Sig–VERY good
.357sig–No, no, no!!
P220 .45ACP–WAY better choice
Just Sayin…
mikey
They’re selling their souls to the idol of their own correct judgement.
How sad for them when someday they discover that their golden idol was created by themselves, and is really just spraypainted wax.
How does one develop a thought process that works like this? I mean, this is something an Iranian Mullah would say.
God, I’ve never felt like converting to Islam so much in my entire in life. If I can get two witnesses among your readership, I’ll recite the Shahada and do it right there, at Sadly, No!
I hope Alberto Gonzales and John Yoo will sleep well tonight, with visions of those boys’ bodies and the horrible barbarities inflicted upon them dancing in their heads.
Well, it may be horrible, and it may be barbaric, but the US government has lost the right to call it torture until it first demonstrates that pain equivilant to that of major organ failure was inflicted. Feel free to correct any wingnut using the inaccurate term “torture”.
The LGF nitwits and the sadistic bastards who killed those guys are pretty much two sides of the same Lord-of-the-Flies coin… except the LGF nitwits are cowards. Too bad the US military is caught between, and the rest of us have to watch.
Surely this is the proof that the Bush plan is working, your soldiers are getting killed over there so that they do not get killed over here, or something….
Ah, the howls of righteous indignation! The squeeling grunts calling out for revenge (served HOT!! )! The non-existant lines at the recruiting office (hey–Superman Returns comes out next week, damnit! priorities!!). And, of course, I always love when they try to turn that around on us and ask, “Well, why haven’t all you Libs joined up?”
1.) ‘Cos it’s a volunteer army, and we don’t have to. You want us to go to war so bad, petition your CongressCritters to re-enstate the draft. ‘Course, that would mean you’d be going, too.
2.) Um, we didn’t support this invasion, so why would we want to help prolong it?
3.) Do you asswipes really want such a large portion of us Libs to receive weapons training when there’s likely a no-questions-asked-Gun Martâ„¢ right down the street? Justaskin’, kowboi!
Tony Snow wishes we would just change the subject, please, back to the Good News coming out of Iraq.
Hey Tony, I got your good news hangin’ for you, right here: As far as I can tell from the news reports, the insurgents didn’t ‘accidentally’ shoot any nearby civilian kids or other innocent noncombatants in this counterattack. And they pretty definitely didn’t accidentally kill any American civilian kids.
Now the really good news! This means we don’t have to listen to their President or Secretary of Defense say “no biggie, shit happens” about it either. Fuckers.
Sig–VERY good
.357sig–No, no, no!!
P220 .45ACP–WAY better choice
Wondering: If you wanted to choose between Springfield Armory 1911 .45, and Glock .45 GAP, which one would you go for?
Just posted something in the comments section over at Digby’s similar to this. Really, we are looking at a culture war. How many Tim McVeigh nutjobs are out there? They are empowered by Bush right now, so are satisfied strutting around with their chests puffed out. What happens when the “evil liberals” take over power? Many of these losers are cowards, but some of them might want to carry through on their threats. In fact I would argue that that they are duty bound to carry them out. The right is the party of hate and violence, and it seems to be worse. Maybe LGF is how they used to talk at KKK rallies before they assaulted a victim. I can’t speak to that – but what they say now is pretty damn scary. They are itching for a fight, and sure enough some of them are too stupid to realize that the rest of their comrades are just talking shit that they have no intention of following up on. Those few can do a lot of damage and ruin a lot of lives. Why are they not arrested for making death threats? There should be consquences for their actions.
Wondering: If you wanted to choose between Springfield Armory 1911 .45, and Glock .45 GAP, which one would you go for?
As a gun-owner, albeit a traditional one with a taste for nostalgia, I’d go with the 1911A1– they’re tough bastards and gives you the ironic “hello from the Greatest Generation” bit if you have to use it in The Coming Glorious Revolution of the People (TM), as the Capitalist Pig-Men of Supply Side Jesus worship WWII.
Wondering: If you wanted to choose between Springfield Armory 1911 .45, and Glock .45 GAP, which one would you go for?
The Glock is a brilliantly designed solution. Unfortunately, it solves NONEXISTANT problems. I HATE Glocks. The have such poor rapid-fire and double-tap performance due to their complete lack of combat ergonomics and balance and stoopid excessive muzzel-flip. If you choose a Glock, hang a picatinny rail and a bunch of junk under the muzzle.
The 1911 is THE PERFECT HANDGUN ™ if you’re willing to put the range and training time into a single action auto. Otherwise, go with the Sig or the HK .45.
mikey
You know, I’m pretty much getting the idea that the 1911 really is the only serious handgun…
Why Sig and/or Heckler? Over the other ones, I mean?
And why the hell are they equipping troops with the 9mm Beretta now? Is that a NATO thing?
It is possible BOTH to be disgusted and enraged by barbaric acts committed against Americans, and ALSO to take responsibility, as an American citizen, for destructive, dumbshit policies enacted by our political leaders.
I prefer:
It is possible BOTH to be disgusted and enraged by barbaric acts committed against and by Americans, and ALSO to take responsibility, as an American citizen, for destructive, dumbshit policies enacted by our political leaders.
I am a fairly reasonable man, but I find myself contemplating a lot of violence these days. Violence in other countries and violence in bars should I ever run into some of the insane jackasses that comment like the people at LGF. The fact that I would (50/50) likely just go alpha male on any number of these deluded and deranged fools frightens me more than anything these people have said.
Well, it definitely explains the more than somewhat muted response from Pony Blow et al. Chipping away the moral highground is such a bastard.
Oh, and Torture Yoo is on secondment in Italy right now, I believe.
The Beretta 92F (*ahem*, sorry, teh M9) won a rigged competition for an upgrade to the 1911. But all that aside, they were going to accept a 9mm due to pressure from NATO (you wouldn’t BELIEVE how much pressure we laid on NATO to standardize on the 5.56.)
Sig and HK build intelligent third generation autos that handle well in combat. They’re not as light to carry or as “idiot proof” as the Glock, but the are the best solution to the demands of eyeball combat. Especially with aftermarket, er, improvements.
Think very carefully about the whole 1911 cachet. It’s a no-doubter that it’s the best choice for professional carry, but it’s complex under stress and its big and heavy and doesn’t conceal for shit (it “prints” your shirt/jacket). Nine’s not the end of the world in combat stops, but if you can carry .45 in the same hi-tec package, dood, you’d just be crazy not to…
mikey
See, that’s why the Glock .45 seemed to be a good alternative. Not the printing (there’s essentially no concealed carry in NJ), but the light weight and idiot-proofness. The Tupperware aspect of the design: it’s pretty much an efficient, mass-produced tech object that’s supposed to work whenever you need it to. The trigger safety, etc.
But giving in to idiot-proofed stuff is also a way of admitting to be an idiot, I guess, and idiots shouldn’t have weapons.
Seriously, why Sig or H/K? Build quality?
OK, this goes back to jeff cooper, jack weaver and the “modern method”. Overwhelmingly, the “practical pistol” community has adopted two-handed rapid stabilized aimed fire as a technique. The Glock is a NIGHTMARE in rapid fire. The muzzle jumps and flips and you can’t get second and third shots on target. HK and SIG have built a more muzzle-heavy format that is just more manageble in multiple assailent work. If that’s not an issue, carry a short-barrel .357 revolver for the reliability and the effectiveness. We sometimes call this a “belly gun” and you could do a lot worse…
mikey
Right, well, Weaver is a ’50s figure, and there are all these tactical-type guys nowadays claiming to have ‘surpassed’ his method. You hear a lot of stuff about pattern-sighting and other techniques, and these same guys recommend Glocks — although it’s pretty much like martial arts, where every fool claims his method is superior, and you have to wade through endless claims and counterclaims.
So basically, the Glock whips around such that you have to re-aim each shot from scratch?
OK, this goes back to jeff cooper, jack weaver and the “modern method�. Overwhelmingly, the “practical pistol� community has adopted two-handed rapid stabilized aimed fire as a technique. The Glock is a NIGHTMARE in rapid fire. The muzzle jumps and flips and you can’t get second and third shots on target. HK and SIG have built a more muzzle-heavy format that is just more manageble in multiple assailent work. If that’s not an issue, carry a short-barrel .357 revolver for the reliability and the effectiveness. We sometimes call this a “belly gun� and you could do a lot worse…
mikey
This might be the greatest Sadly, No! thread ever!
If any pasties (Protein Wisdom readers) are lurking, check it out. “Sheeyit, looks like some of them durned libruls might be armed too…”
Yeah, there’s these clowns advocating “point shooting” too. But Cooper GOT it. You need to have a practiced drill that will put your sights on target and you can follow when you’re fucking terrified and trying to lock up. The cops teach a version of the weaver called isosceles designed to channel adrenaline into accuracy. It doesn’t work, the cops are THE WORST when it comes to “spray and pray”. Those guys are selling magazines and books. The basic weaver with a reliable, large caliber auto and a reasonable amount of time spent working on your technique, a good winning mindset and the right goal (destroy the immediate threat, break off the fight and retreat with your side intact) will win the day every time. Better the gun on your hip than the one in your dresser….
mikey
*grin*
This is NOT a part of me that usually comes out in casual conversation…
*blush*
mikey
“Sheeyit, looks like some of them durned libruls might be armed too…�
LMAO!!!
When you think about it, liberals tend to stand up for their country and what they believe in. Our leaders are the warriors. They think the long hours they devote to Countersrtike or whatever FPS they play makes them bad-ass warriors. Sadly, No!
If they do pull the trigger on a hot culture war, they will be proof that social darwinism is viable. Maybe call it a “Goldberger” ala Santorum: The mix of crap, blood, snot & tears these punks would gush when confronted with real violence…
This is NOT a part of me that usually comes out in casual conversation…
Please, feel no self-consciousness. I’m just enjoying the great political theater (and learning a little about handguns at the same time).
I love Sadly, No! Many days (like today) it’s the only thing that restores my faith in the sanity and decency of my fellow citizens.
Okay, back to the guns…
I’m trying to juggle a bunch of stuff now, but I’d like to pick up later, if you’re around…
I thought this article had a lot of interesting details:
link
I’m not a big fan of Spaulding, but he does make some good points. Most importantly is to expect more chaos and confusion than you think you will encounter. People will be shouting, running, screaming and possibly shooting. The key is to close down to a specific goal. If you don’t have a target, start planning to move. If you have a target, engage it, and then start planning to move. You are not required to end the threat. You are required to evade the threat. You use your weapon to fight OUT of trouble, not to eliminate trouble.
And it’s always been my training that whenever your gun is in your hand you are saying, under your breath, in your mind, over and over, “front sight, front sight, front sight”. That is, no matter how fucked up things get, you are concentrating and focusing on your front sight. You may not be in an approved balanced stance, but you are viewing your world thru your front sight. And if you ever need to shoot someone, I promise, you won’t “miss” like you see on TV. You put multiple shots in center mass and you clear out…
mikey
Dammit, now Mikey has ME itching for range time! The only time I shoot these days when I visit my Dad and we destroy a gang of cylindrical aluminum enemies. I’ve been missing some real practice.
And it’s time for me to go serve my moon-worshipping pig overlords.
You know, this one stood out to me because I’ve never met one liberal that’s the stereotype moon worshipping, rain dancing, gay environmentalist or whatever the nonsense stereotype is now, but every time you give these LGF yahoo’s a chance, they jump on the opportunity to prove themselves to be the red neck, right wing reactionary stereotype. They seriously embrace it with gusto. It’s weird, no one should *want* to be a stereotype.
I did a post on this the other day, before all this stuff came out, please for the love of god someone visit my blog!
By the way, just to join the club, I own shothguns, airrifles, paintball guns ect. Looking into a pistol or a rifle.
And If I meet just *one* of those LGF readers… No, goodness I wouldn’t shoot them, I’d invite them to blast skeet. But just to be safe I’d be loading theirs with blanks.
mikey, if you weren’t so liberal (and if you paranoidly believed that the pedophile priest scandal was a plot of the atheistic/Protestant media), I’d be convinced you were one of my uncles 😉
My old man also swears by his old .45 (he was US Army, early-mid ’70s), though he’s never had occasion to use it in a home defense situation (thank God), so I believe that’s another for the BEST GUN EVAR!!1!11! party.
But, fellows… we must also remember who we are dealing with, and knowing what the cheeto boys are certainly have (c’mon, it’s not as if their parents would ever let them have a gun in the house), we should prepare ourselves for melee combat as well.
we must also remember who we are dealing with, and knowing what the cheeto boys are certainly have (c’mon, it’s not as if their parents would ever let them have a gun in the house), we should prepare ourselves for melee combat as well.
The fact is that your Liberal insults to the nation’s citizens who are charisma- and intelligence-challenged (and who have Dorito dust in their pants) reveal your elitist, Manhattan-based agenda to bring the whole world under Islamic fundamentalist rule.
Furthermore, I just rolled a strength of 15, with an agility of 14, and a constitution of 16. So bring it, beeyatch.
I’d be convinced you were one of my uncles
That’s funny. I obviously spend a LOT of time with real old-line republicans on various ranges and competitions. But you know what? They’re good old fashion conservatives, not wingnuts. For the most part they supported the invasion of Iraq, but they’ve totally lost faith by now. They HATE the patriot act, the spending, the unilateral interventionist foreign policy, the domestic spying, and in many cases, while they seriously don’t like teh gay, they can’t see a reason why they shouldn’t be allowed to get married. They don’t honestly much care for the immigrants and the muslims, though. More practical right wingers, a joy to behold…
mikey
I just signed up for LGF and left a big steamy turd in their mouths a minute ago.
The responses should be fun to read.
Also, my charisma is 11!!111!!
All this gun shit just makes me giggle, thinking of what some people who might just be reading this stuff must think …
well, fuck, okay, maybe they know guns, too, well huh, but , you know, well, fuck … shit, …. damnit, where’s my cheetos?
I have a maple tree that makes an outstanding slingshot.
Two thoughts on handguns:
1. Choose a caliber that’s readily available. .45 GAP is all well and good if you reload your own ammo or if you buy multiple case lots, but .45ACP and 9mmx19 (and .38 Special, and funny old .22LR–the most common handgun homicide round of ’em all) can be found at any gun shop and a great many Wal*Marts, K-Marts and rural hardware stores. .357 Sig has great ballistics, but shaky availability.
2. I think it was Massad Ayoob who said that the purpose of a handgun in combat is to fight your way back to your rifle or shotgun, which you shouldn’t have put down in the first place. Big ol’ hoglegs like 1911s and P220s are all snappy & everything, but they don’t conceal well. If you’re using a handgun for self-defense, it’s because you had the gun on you , which means it was hidden. For that, you want small items, like the Kel-Tec P11 or the Glock P36 (or Mikey’s aforementioned belly gun). They may not be the ideal piece for double-taps, but you can carry them. Then you go get your twelve-guage, or run like your Levi’s caught fire.
P.S. I find the cult of the 1911 much like fans of non-evo Harleys. Some folks really believe that the old ways are the best, and that little of value has been invented since FDR was President. I guess I’m a little more of a late 20th-century type.
This week it’s guns, next week, it will be sofa-sleepers.
I was thinking stoves, myself.
It’s the first real summer night in northern california. Awful pleasant now. Doc Amazing is right about most everything, very practical, and I am also quite the fan of Massad Ayoob (and an LFI attendee). I’d just add a couple things. If you only have one defesive handgun, get a full sized service pistol. More effective for home defense, less effective to carry concealed. Let your second handgun be your carry piece. .357, 9mm, 40 S/W, .38 super and .45 are all acceptable. The smaller calibers (.38, 9mm, etc) are easier to control and allow for more accuurate shot placement. The larger calibers require less in the way of carefull shot placement. .22LR you need to get throat shots. I also recomend against the specialty calibers, ESPECIALLY 357sig. It’s a bottleneck cartridge that headspaces on the case mouth, not the shoulder. Who’s idea was that abortion??? Oh, and you can’t fireform .40 S/W brass, it’ll be too short. Yikes.
Docs point about fighting your way back to your rifle is well taken, but unrealistic. You need to be able to get yourself and your loved ones out of trouble with your handgun. You start counting on backup or more firepower and less tactics and you’ll die. That’s how you lose at this.
Last, yes, it’s fair to say that there is a “cult” of the 1911. But the thing real shooters understand is, cool though it might be, the gun is just the launching pad. EVERYTHING is about the round, the bullet and it’s terminal ballistic performance. That’s why I’m a strong .45 ACP advocate. A modern DA .45 like the HK is just fine. Sure, I like the 1911, but anything that delivers the most powerful, most controllable round is the winner…
G’nite, all
mikey
Night mikey, am I the only one left lurking on this thread?
Why can’t I sleep?!? BUSHES FAULT!!!!!111(one!)!
I like to think of them as ‘one-cylinder engines’.
2. I think it was Massad Ayoob who said that
That was the name I was trying to find….
Docs point about fighting your way back to your rifle is well taken, but unrealistic. You need to be able to get yourself and your loved ones out of trouble with your handgun. You start counting on backup or more firepower and less tactics and you’ll die. That’s how you lose at this.
To sum up what I’ve learned, variously over time (and thanks to you, Mikey):
Go cold.
Target + next move out.
Sights.
Retreat & think.
There’s a lot that can go wrong there, but that’s not a bad plan, if-ever.
how many of those tough guys showed up at Yearly Kos with bats? None, right?
Funny you should mention that merlallen, I was surfing around a week or so ago looking at reactions to the yearly KOS convention.
Here is the forceful republican reaction to that breeding ground of communism.
Basically he walks around being a giant asshole and wondering why liberals won’t respond in kind.
Just to add, here’s a passage from the Spaulding article where I think he fucks up:
That’s a failure to snap into cold. The aggressor has like 2 or 3 seconds, maximum, to show a weapon and have it be like, ‘Wuh?’
Anything beyond that, and it’s like, “Is that a gun? Oh wow. What’s he going to do next? Oh no, he’s shooting. Now what? Help!”
Where am I?? Bizarro SN???
Sadly, No!
It’s the real deal!!!!!!!!!11!
More practical right wingers, a joy to behold…
Yep– right on the money almost exactly, though my family is cool with Mexicans because they are mostly Catholic (some salivate at the prospect of a Catholic majority instead of our current plurality), and Muslims because teh j00s (still a little pre- Vatican II paranoia there) keep smacking them in Palestine.
Furthermore, I just rolled a strength of 15, with an agility of 14, and a constitution of 16. So bring it, beeyatch.
I’ve leveled to demigod power– no mortal can stand up to my raw power and command of arcane and divine magics (except that shithead Elminster and possibly his little drow toyboy, but they wouldn’t dare since I’m NG and surround myself with all manner of archons and such).
Eat it, cobaggio.
I’ve got a board with a nail in it. Does that work?
I’ve shot my mouth off and I’ve been loaded a whole lot of times. Would you reccommend Jameson or Michael Collins Irish Whiskey? I’m leaning toward the Collins, it’s a single malt, not nearly as sweet as Jamie’s and its namesake used to kill Englishmen.
What’s the right handgun for an opinionated drunk?
man, Fuck little green noballs. I’m so sick of their shit. How is it possible that all these wingers like Goldstain, etc, try to profess that they are noble, high-minded people, but at the same time they gleefully link to and are associated with those fascist, racist, jingoist assholes?
“What’s the right handgun for an opinionated drunk?”
LGF is your one-stop shop for such information.
I love this thread so much. I’ve been telling people I know for years that the only thing that keeps me from worrying too much about the wingers flipping out if “too many” Democrats win or a Democrat is elected president by “too many votes” is that they all seem to sincerely believe that only they own and can operate firearms.
Hell, I’ve got a couple of neighbors that I know I can easily roll to augment my arsenal should The Shit Come Down. And then they have to carry on knowing a sissy liberal peacenik cleaned them out. And we won’t dwell on the lifted truck on tractor tires down the road with multiple magnetic ribbons on it — it might as well have my name on it.
So fantasize away, internet toughguys. Keep running those mouths and tell yourselves your side has the drop on the marxist America-hating hippies. By all means, continue.
OK, you guys are seriously freaking me out now…
Of course, having said that, one of the things that sped my departure abroad was a bumper sticker on a car parked next to mine at a big box retailer that pretty much declared open season on liberals. I kept looking at people in the store and thinking “Is that your car? Is that supposed to be some kind of sick joke? Or worse, are you serious?” But maybe that’s just me being paranoid (or so I thought at the time-i.e. last spring in suburban Portland, OR).
Go cold.
Target + next move out.
Sights.
Retreat & think.
There’s a lot that can go wrong there, but that’s not a bad plan, if-ever.
A good summation. Mindset, tactics, keeping your head and THINKING will do more than firepower ever will in defensive combat.
Just to add, here’s a passage from the Spaulding article where I think he fucks up:
The problem with a lot of these shills for the gun industry is they don’t write particularly clearly, or well. My guess is that what Spaulding is REALLY trying to talk about is “situational awareness”. Any real instructor in the tactical pistol will spend a significant amount of time on mindset and awareness. When bad stuff happens, it looks fast and chaotic because most people have no idea who the players are, where they came from, and what they were doing before all hell broke loose. The idea is to be aware of everyone and everything happening in your “bubble” (typically 7-10 meters, but varies depending on location). The cool thing is it’s a drill you can work all the time, everywhere, armed or not. Once you get in the habit of SEEING–the people, their clothes, their eyes, their relationship to other people, what’s in their hands, how they’re moving–and it becomes second nature so it doesn’t occupy your attention so as to interupt your conversation, then you will have a much enhanced opportunity to say “hmm, something’s not right here. Think me and my kid will just head down the street and get an ice cream or something.” A fight avoided is a fight won, every damn time.
mikey
A fight avoided is a fight won, every damn time.
Spoken gleefully like a cut-and-run librul!!!1!1!
Yet oh-so-correct.
celticgirl: In Portland? Not paranoid.
Me, I’m leaving the household gun in the safety deposit box until I stop feeling suicidal every time I look at our President. I don’t think he can drive me to pepper spray myself to death, though I suppose it’s probably worth keeping an eye on.
“Even jackals — literal Canus spp. jackals — do that, growling and baring their teeth at those not in their specific little pack of consanguinous scavengers. Insects do it. It’s not terribly advanced or intelligent.”
But…insects don’t have teeth… *confused*
Airdale? Do we have a Santorum-loving, man-on-dog type here?
Oh, like I’m going to be afraid of a chickenshit chickenhawk. Next thing he’ll be threatening to cock-slap my face.
I used to own a Beretta M92 (sold it at a time of fiscal illiquidity, as it were). I liked it a lot. If you can find shells made by the Italian arms company (can’t remember the name … something like Frazzetti), they make a 9mm round that has a bigger load than any other 9mm I was able to find. It wasn’t quite a magnum load, but it had a significantly higher muzzle velocity.
Fiocchi?
Laser Potato, insects have those nasty sharp mandibles, though. And if you’ve never been confronted with a pack of growling, mouthpart-baring xenophobic Insecta, well, you’ve never known that particular brand of blood-chilling fear.
It wasn’t quite a magnum load, but it had a significantly higher muzzle velocity.
I hate to be an old woman here, but you do know about the 92F’s bad reputation for burst barrels and shattered slides, even using standard 115gr 1250fps loads, don’t you? Any kind of of +p or hot loads can wreck your day with no warning. Tell me, at least, you buffered the recoil spring before you started pushing hot foreign nines through your Berretta. Does the box at least give you the SAMMI pressures generated?
Honest, I’m not a plastic helmet type, but that combination would worry me.
Just Sayin
mikey
Timmah – that link was very funny! I didn’t get through all the comments, but this one totally got me: “You [Canada] have one of the highest rates of abortion in the world. Your population will be zero in five years if you keep that up.”
that is serious wingnuttery. I love it.
Who knows what all happens that we never even hear about. Not everything makes the press.
OK _ I read this blog aon the sly at work but I am unable to post. So now when I come home at night, the response I wanted to give is probably way way overdue. But…
Can I just say? mikey…… can I be one of your minions?
No, seriously.
You can be one of mine, g, if mikey is too full up (it’s always good to have safety options when job searching).
I’ve got a board with a nail in it. Does that work?
Not only will it work, it never runs out of ammo, never jams, and is much less likely to kill the toddler who finds it lying around and starts playing with it.
“We need a club.”
“Got a club,” said Detritus proudly. “Got a nail in it.”
“I mean a nightclub.”
“Still got a nail in it at night.”
Alright!! Now that I’ve got minions, let’s party!!!
mikey