Final push
Posted on March 15th, 2010 by Brad
OK, I just called Mike Capuano and told him to pass the damn health care bill. Yeah, I know the bill sucks in a lot of ways, but if we let reform die now we won’t get another shot at it for 20 or so years (at which point we’ll already be broke trying to pay our medical bills and we’ll have to sell our kidneys just to afford food… in other words, we’ll be in Sowelltopia).
So please, call your Congressdude and let them know you want them to vote for healthcare reform. That is all.
we’ll have to sell our kidneys just to afford food
If someone else hasn’t stolen them in a bathtub of ice already.
I called my rep (Jackie Speier) and pushed, but I have to confess: I’m not at all enthusiastic about the piece o’shit bill that has come through. It contains many, many poison pills (it is likely to strip funds from urban ERs; it may well increase the tax burden on unions). If it’s the best we’re likely to get right now and we need it, then let’s push it through, but the cheerleading I have witnessed from a number of people who ought to know better has been nauseating. Same with the ritual giving of shit to those who don’t fall in line behind this shitty bill (like Jane Hamsher and Dennis Kucinich).
The bill is a lesser evil. It may be necessary, but it’s a long way from good. Get that through your heads, kids, before you pull out the pom-poms.
Final push
Yes, it’s crowning…here comes the head…
“His eyes! What have you people done to his eyes?”
“He has his father’s eyes.”
Doc,
You know what they say about sausage and legislation: you never want to watch either one being made.
Sadly, we’ve been forced to. If this bill had just sprung out of committee and onto us, we’d probably feel a lot better about it, despite its mediocrity.
Jeez, actor.
Put a veil on those references, huh?
Get that through your heads, kids, before you pull out the pom-poms.
Hey, I know, OK? I know, I know, I know. This isn’t a pom-pom waving post. It’s a “this thing is better than resounding failure for the next two decades” post.
In a couple of years when the government is giving you 50% of the premiums you are required to pay, when the insurance covers next to nothing, and when the pharmacutical and insruance industries are raking in massive amounts of money with no oversight. And you are told well just a few years ago we passed a national health care plan, so you don’t need anything more.
Then come back and tell me how this is so much better than notihng.
…we’d probably feel a lot better about it, despite its mediocrity.
I’m gonna have to disagree here. The closest this thing gets to cost control is the excise tax on luxury plans. There’s no method of enforcing any of the new requirements, the best they got is threats to kick plans out of state-based exchanges. Whoop-de-doo. Sure the pre-existing condition discrimination is at an end – or at least in those states with viable Health Exchanges that aren’t owned by the insurance industry. Mandated minimum Medical Loss Ratios? Great, provided someone actually forces non-complying insurance providers to issue rebates. And we all know how easy it is to get insurance companies to pay out.
It’s a shitty bill. The best description I’ve heard is that it’s bribing the insurance companies to accept “everyone” into their plans. BUT, it’s what’s on the table. It’s shit sandwich or starvation. Almost everyone supporting this thing is allupons about providing care to 30 million uninsured – i.e. at least we get to free some of the hostages.
Well, that position would not have evolved without the months and months of constant disappointment. If this was what came out of Committee back in the summer, progressives everywhere would have p00ped on it – but now it’s all about falling in line because this is as good as it’s going to get. Fan-fucking-tastic.
Well, that position would not have evolved without the months and months of constant disappointment. If this was what came out of Committee back in the summer, progressives everywhere would have p00ped on it – but now it’s all about falling in line because this is as good as it’s going to get. Fan-fucking-tastic.
Again, look, I KNOW. The plan sucks in a lot of ways.
The reason I’ve been arguing in favor of torching financial reform is to avoid the same thing happening to it that’s been happening to health care. In that case I’d rather have nothing than an ineffective bill.
Health care, though, can be fixed in the long term. In fact it will have to be fixed — otherwise we’ll just go broke.
George Miller isn’t even answering the phone any more; he’s got so many beat, old, Democratic voters in this district that he’s bound to vote for anything that smells remotely like health care. Thanks for the thought, though. I’ve never seen such democratic weaselry in my life…but when I see Lindsay Graham’s peerlessly bootable face on all the chat shows Monday, promising America an eternity of suffering if we pass the bill, I know it’s way past time for the vote already. Meanwhile, I hope the new census’ll get us a new Congressperson–it’s time for shitty, clapped out Richmond to be represented by some serious left-wing firebrand.
The best description I’ve heard is that it’s bribing the insurance companies to accept “everyone” into their plans.
Evidence suggests precisely the opposite: why else are the insurance companies and the Republicans manning the barricades?
Evidence suggests precisely the opposite: why else are the insurance companies and the Republicans manning the barricades?
Because they’d rather keep doing what they get to do now, all else being equal. But the compromise the Senate made is incredibly favorable to the insurance industry. It is a bribe to get them to cover people. And though they’d rather retain their “we can screw anyone for any reason” powers, they’ll be happy with this too.
good luck this week….. hopefully you’ll get at least a part of what us Eurotrash and the canuckistan commies get for granted.
Its amazing that there is actually a debate….
I have never seen a better example of “the perfect is the enemy of the good” than complaints from the left about health care reform. As Brad points out, having an imperfect HCR law on the books is better than not having any HCR law on the books.
Wild speculation about how awful the world might be under health care legislation that doesn’t meet the highest standards of perfection in your mind is no excuse for ignoring how awful the world is definitely GOING to be in the absence of any health care legislation. Skyrocketing costs, diminishing coverage, and virtually unregulated pharma and insurance industries are what we have now, and even if you believe there’s a 99% chance of that happening under HCR, there is a 100% chance that it will continue without HCR.
And if you’re worried about Congress wiping its collective hands and saying “Well, that ought to keep the little bastards quiet from now on,” then the answer is to KEEP THE PRESSURE ON, not to give up and say “Well, since you can’t pass a bill I would find totally acceptable, you shouldn’t do anything at all.”
Its amazing that there is actually a debate….
The McLaughlin Group had some Eurojournalist on yesterday and she made almost precisely this point, how ridiculous, in light of all the economic problems that people in this nation are suffering, that this is even a debatable subject.
Its amazing that there is actually a debate
Tell me about it. No other country in the world where people angrily protest the government trying to help them get health care.
I have never seen a better example of “the perfect is the enemy of the good” than complaints from the left about health care reform.
They have legit complaints, though! C’mon, don’t tell me you feel good about bribing all the major stakeholders into helping people get health care!
They have legit complaints, though! C’mon, don’t tell me you feel good about bribing all the major stakeholders into helping people get health care!
Yes, they have legit complaints. As does anyone with a brain looking at pretty much any piece of legislation. But unless someone can offer a realistic alternative, they’re just a purity troll. Passing laws is ugly, always has been and always will be. That’s why the best ideas are iterated until they’re good enough. The Civil Rights Act of 1960 sucked, but it set up passage of the Act of 1964, which didn’t suck.
Wow, reading these comments make me understand why the right is so successful in this country. Imagine if the pro-lifers had said the same when the Hyde amendment was passed. “No, that’s not good enough! We want you to ban abortions completely! Vote no for it!” Do you honestly believe that they would have been better of by now?
The trick is to do everything in small enough steps. Never gloat or boast. Just continue to put pressure on and keep fighting. In the locals elections, in the primaries, everytime there is a chance.
I assume you all did kick in a couple of hundred of hours each to get Coakley elected by the way?
This line of yours sounds familiar Brad. I’m remembering something you posted back in January…
And now today…
The ACES bill is being quietly drowned in the proverbial bathtub, the financial regulation thing is going to be skewed towards keeping the status quo, and now this clusterfuck of a health care bill is doing it’s best to offend no one while changing very little about the system and costing more than it would have if we just put the fucking public option in from the start. Judging by the words in your posts, you know this as well, but the politicians get more money and a potential cushy post from these big companies than from poor people who might get sick.
If the best you can say in support is, “yes, we’re being served a gigantic shit sandwich by the politicians we trusted, but at least they are smiling while they watch us eat it”, then you should probably ask yourself why you are even bothering to support these people.
Sadly, the Health Care Insurance Company Bailout bill is a step backwards. Do you think after the government makes people buy insurance that they already couldn’t afford at prices that will continue to skyrocket is going to get folks on board for public involvement in health care? That somehow “we’ll fix it later?”
“There’s never enough time to do it right, but there’s always time to do it over.”
Do you think after the government makes people buy insurance that they already couldn’t afford at prices that will continue to skyrocket is going to get folks on board for public involvement in health care?
Yes.
SASQ
If the best you can say in support is, “yes, we’re being served a gigantic shit sandwich by the politicians we trusted, but at least they are smiling while they watch us eat it”, then you should probably ask yourself why you are even bothering to support these people.
Alternatives! I’d love to hear ’em! I voted Nader in 2000 and that didn’t work out so well for me.
Dan Someone–
Step away from the pom-poms. Throw away the phrase “letting the perfect be the enemy of the good”; this bill isn’t good. It sucks. It might be necessary, but it sucks. Acknowledge that, at least.
Tell me about it. No other country in the world where people angrily protest the government trying to help them get health care.
Its really the thing I just don’t get. You don’t have to be that smart to realize that this is a good thing ‘for the people’, but you get these folk protesting against it. Unbelievable.
Also, I note the lack of British or European commentators to comment on this. perhaps, because despite all the whining, it works.
Before folks go off judging healthcare reform, keep in mind that the program most often identified as a successful liberal initiative, Social Security, started out as a limited program to assist people retiring from the railroads (and other interstate commerce).
Its very first lump sum payout was a grand total of 17 cents and it was nearly dismantled after 1937 because it was felt it tied up too much of the government resources into retiring Americans.
The tent flap is open. The camel’s nostril is sticking in. I’m betting the camel gets in before the flap gets shut.
The camel’s nostril is sticking in. I’m betting the camel gets in before the flap gets shut.
This post was great until you decided to discuss your sex life.
I’ve been a fence-sitter on HCR for a while.
I think its shittiness far outweighs its goodness.
So I’m left to view it through a political-lens. That the Republicans are having such spectacular shit-fits over this I have to now lean towards passing the steaming pile o’excrement.
Then, hopefully, it will be easier to make it better later.
I note the lack of British or European commentators to comment on this
I’ve seen plenty of articles out of the UK, the Sun and the Mail of course, but even the Guardian, pointing out the weaknesses of the National Health.
I do not think it was a coincidence that the spate of those articles occured starting last Spring.
This post was great until you decided to discuss your sex life.
At least it wasn’t a goatse reference.
If the best you can say in support is, “yes, we’re being served a gigantic shit sandwich by the politicians we trusted, but at least they are smiling while they watch us eat it”, then you should probably ask yourself why you are even bothering to support these people.
So, just put yer fingers in your ear, go….. ‘la la la la….’ & eventually your sparkle ponies will appear. jeeze, has no-one learned anything….
I’ve seen plenty of articles out of the UK, the Sun and the Mail of course, but even the Guardian, pointing out the weaknesses of the National Health.
kind of meant on the US side of the debate. From reading the British papers (though i wont touch The Scum or The Mail), there has been the usual NHS debates, but nothing really out the ordinary…. whine, whine, whine, as is our want…..
Would the FT suffice?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8416238c-2fd2-11df-9153-00144feabdc0.html
For fuck’s sake, I wish they’d just pass the fucking thing so we can get on with it. Maybe it’ll all work out in the end. At least it’ll stop the DFH beating for a while. I’m tired of people assuming I’ve got some sort of weird love for unicorns and/or ponies.
I’m tired of people assuming I’ve got some sort of weird love for unicorns and/or ponies.
Don’t worry. Here at S, N! we understand that you love unicorns in a perfectly normal way.
Don’t worry. Here at S, N! we understand that you love unicorns in a perfectly normal way.
*sniff* Mah peepul!
Planet Unicorn, hey!
Here at S, N! we understand that you love unicorns in a perfectly normal way.
And not at all in that grubby, unctious and filthy “horny” kind of way.
And jest in toim for Saint Paddy’s Day, boy-o!
Selling kidneys for food?? What do you do on day three?
Truck-driver Brown said the other day we should leave it to the states to decide their own health coverage thingies.
Welp, front page of The State this morn – people on Medicaid are going to start having to decide which meds they most want to get, ’cause there’s gonna be cuts. Meanwhile, our Leg is looking to hand out $100 mil to build a mall upstate – because what we need is of course ONE MORE FUCKING MALL.
Wheeee, socialism for the rich, feudalism for the poor. Same as it ever was.
And not at all in that grubby, unctious and filthy “horny” kind of way.
As a child, I had a tendency to chew off the horns of my My Little Pony unicorns. I’m not sure what this means…
And jest in toim for Saint Paddy’s Day, boy-o!
Fuck yeah Irish Rovers!
At this point it’s all about politics. If the bill does not pass, the Rethugs increase their chances of getting seats back from the spineless do-nothing Dems. If the bill passes, the Dems get to say they did something and they lose fewer seats in the midterms. What’s in the bill doesn’t matter for several years, at which point the bad things *may* hurt the Dems politically, or the bad things *may* get fixed.
This is true whether the bill is good or bad.
Uh, fuck the purists. Refer to D.’s graph from several months ago. Or check out the second half of this post I put up a few days ago as to why this bill is about a thousand times better than no bill at all.
Seriously, “it’s only going to help 30 million people” is a really fucked-up excuse for opposing it.
I had a tendency to chew off the horns of my My Little Pony unicorns
*crossing legs*
And no, the bill DOES matter, right fucking now. The minute it becomes law, recissions end, and people with pre-existing conditions can get coverage. I suppose if you’re a person with no health issues or who has insurance, it’s “doesn’t matter”. For people who do have issues and don’t have insurance, it matters a whole fucking lot.
My rep is Allen Boyd; he’s already running ads saying how he’s saved us from this monumental waste of taxpayer money, so I doubt a call to his office would be effective. Blue Dog asshole.
Billions for needless wars, nothing for the taxpayers.
Fingers crossed; I’ve seen too many false hopes over the last year to have any confidence anymore.
As my high school counselor cynically said about college applications, expect nothing but rejection. That way you won’t be disappointed and any surprises will be good ones.
“And no, the bill DOES matter, right fucking now. The minute it becomes law, recissions end, and people with pre-existing conditions can get coverage. I suppose if you’re a person with no health issues or who has insurance, it’s “doesn’t matter”. For people who do have issues and don’t have insurance, it matters a whole fucking lot.”
Hear hear.
Billions for needless wars, nothing for the taxpayers.
Yeah, when you consider there’s been more “debate” about this than there was about invading Iraq…
Yeah, when you consider there’s been more “debate” about this than there was about invading Iraq…
More “blah” for the buck.
OT – Dan Riehl tries to be a bigger asshole and exceeds even my high expectations.
Isn’t there a Goatse Award this guy can win?
I guess my problem with people arguing for killing the bill, is I haven’t ever got their “and then what” argument- their reasoning seems to be we kill the bill and the massive problems with the current healthcare system cause a wave of public outcry to sweep the country and then- boom Single Payer!- When you ask them why this didn’t happen in say 1994- they just tell you things weren’t bad enough then, which hey is an awesome argument, and has the benefit of being one you can repeat nearly word for word (just change the years) in 2022 or so if this bill fails. Oh and as for the Nader-Kucinich argument, I’ve thought a lot about this and I think I have only one real problem with it- Unlike Nader, Kucinich is an elected legislator, he is almost by his job description supposed to compromise his ideals to achieve the greatest possible good for his base.
I hate this health care bill. It really isn’t going to help anyone. It will “cover” more people, if by cover you mean charge them a ridiculous amount of money because the government is subsidizing it with debt from china, for services they still wont be able to afford, while eroding abortion rights and making everyone hate government that much more. Just like how the phone companies like to make everyone think their high bills are because of government mandates, the insurance companies will now be able to misdirect the rage at their high rates directly to the government regulations, not because they wanted to fly in Bunny Ranch girls for their next executive retreat.
Seriously, those people who now get covered still wont be able to afford heath care. Hell, I can’t afford to go get my hand injury fixed, and I’ve got what is considered good insurance.
The only reason to pass this piece of shit is because we desperately need a win. That is it. It will piss off the conservatives, so that will be nice, but it will probably piss them off enough to go vote the stupid in this years elections. So I’m not sure what will be worse… listening to them crow about killing health care, or watching them use it to take back congressional seats.
Single payer is realistic – if we had a single pound of fucking leadership on it from Obama. Public option is even more doable… would have just needed an ounce of leadership and populism. There is nothing unrealistic about either, just a total lack of testicular fortitude in getting the message out and trying to change the direction this country is heading.
Right now, the Democrats seem content to let us go over the cliff the republicans have steered us towards, they just want us to go over it at 40 mph instead of 80.
In a slightly more perfect world, we’d let this POS die and use it to vote more conservatives out of office. We just don’t have the leadership to make that happen. So I really don’t know which will be worse. If I believed this bill had anything in it that would make things better for even a fraction of our population I would be ok with it. Insurance coverage just doesn’t equal better health care, though.
The bill is a lesser evil. It may be necessary, but it’s a long way from good. Get that through your heads, kids, before you pull out the pom-poms.
The things cheerleaders shake are “pompons.” A “pom-pom” is a type of explosive artillery shell.
I’m not usually this pedantic, but in this case, pom-poms may actually be more appropriate. I wouldn’t mind seeing a few lobbed at, say, Bart Stupak’s office.
In a slightly more perfect world, we’d let this POS die and use it to vote more conservatives out of office.
Problem is, if we let it die, the pigs control the media so it’d be 24/7 of “HAW HAW WE WIN DUMB DEMS LOSE” which of course would mean more Republicans since politics is after all a zero-sum game *snerk*.
Socratic, I guess I could say the same thing about people who just want it to pass… “And then what?” They know it isn’t going to work well, so how do we ever fix it? What is more likely… incrementally fixing it over time, or incrementally making it even more favorable to the people who make money off of it. Will passing it lead to more people getting better health care, or just more people being “covered”? Will passing it prevent medical profits from sucking more money from people, or will it just open new channels for them to do it?
Most importantly, will passing it make it more or less possible to shift this country away from the cliff? I am really afraid that passing it is going to help the republicans win more seats. I would like to think it might demoralize their leadership and disillusion their base, but I just can’t see it.
And yeah, not passing might empower their leadership and base with the heady thrill of victory. But it is possible it could be turned against them, and it /might/ wake up some progressive leadership into finally taking the damn gloves off.
But probably not.
So the argument for not passing isn’t that there will be another opportunity to make things better. I think most of us who don’t want it to pass or have serious reservations about it (I’m not sure… I guess I will enjoy the victory if it does) are terrified it is going to make things much worse.
In a slightly more perfect world, we’d let this POS die and use it to vote more conservatives out of office. We just don’t have the leadership to make that happen. So I really don’t know which will be worse. If I believed this bill had anything in it that would make things better for even a fraction of our population I would be ok with it. Insurance coverage just doesn’t equal better health care, though.
Yeah, I’m happy about the ban on pre-existing conditions barring people from obtaining health insurance, and I’m glad about the out-of-pocket expenditure caps, as well as the expansion of Medicaid and the idea that people will be covered under their parents’ insurance up to the age of 26. (I really, really could have used that!)
But the mandates combined with the lack of cost control and no public option make it a fucking killer, and lead me to doubt that this bill will do what people are claiming it to. I’m not all “Kill the bill!” but I’m not going to pretend that I like it.
So the argument for not passing isn’t that there will be another opportunity to make things better. I think most of us who don’t want it to pass or have serious reservations about it (I’m not sure… I guess I will enjoy the victory if it does) are terrified it is going to make things much worse.
Exactly. I’m afraid it will be as bad as, if not worse than the status quo, but just in a different way. I’m holding out hope that it won’t be, and if I’m proven wrong, I will be delighted.
Excuse me, but I keep hearing about “lack of cost control”. While it’s true that there isn’t anything in the bill that says “you can only charge X for procedure Y”, it’s also true that there ARE things in the bill that say “you insurance companies have to spend 85% of the money you make on premiums on benefits” (I think it’s actually more than 85%, but the point is, they can’t just decide they’d like to keep more of it for their CEO and shareholders). As for cost controls, again, read the second half of the post I put up on my blog. Costs absolutely CANNOT be controlled under the current system, where the friend I write about can only get care when she’s 2 or 3 pints low on blood; the hospital treats her for the immediate problem and shifts the cost onto everyone else – which is one of the biggest factors driving cost increases. And because uninsured people with chronic illnesses will seek emergency care on a repeat basis – in many cases because no one ever bothers to actually try to diagnose and treat the underlying condition (you need insurance for that) – every time they show up at the ER in really bad shape, costs rise for everyone else.
Quit your worrying, Brad. Can any legislation opposed unanimously by Republicans be bad?
POOP
I’d really like to get a response from people who thought the public option was a good compromise. If we’d been out selling Medicare-for-all we would be just as disappointed as we are now, but at least the Overton window would be moved and it would be in the public’s mind.
I thought Obama learned his lesson about not pre-compromising with the stimulus. He made the same mistake. I imagine he will make it again on energy.
The Kill The Kulaks Act was a little over the top.
I am not going to wade into the specifics of this bill to support or oppose it. I am going to support it because if this is the “Final Push,” then I believe there will be a “Final Shove.”
I hope those in opposition gag.
PENIS
Ahhh, I see that the Obummer has finally come to his senses and is doing what Even The Liberal(TM) Paul Krugman, which is me, has been telling him to do for the start, which is fight for this bill, even though it should also include a whole host of things that don’t have the slightest chance of ever passing through Congress unscathed, because I am Even The Liberal(TM) Paul Krugman, knighted saint of the Applebees Man, who understands that we should have elected Hillary and that my blog should be linked to by all. Have you linked to me today? Because you should, because I need that sweet, sweet LibDrudge anti-wingnut welfare.
Dammit, I wish some of you dicks would stop e-mailing me. Can’t you see I’m too busy to bother reading through Obummer’s boooooring speeches? I’ve got to get my makeup ready for my new Newsweek photoshoot, dammit!
Or what mysticdog said.
How exactly are medical loss ratios going to be enforced? By those unicorns, I suppose.
It would be nice if there were someone called a leader who could explain the benefits of this bill. Polls show that people support the components, but not the overall bill. Which is exactly what happened to HillaryCare. Rahm Emmanuel apparently learned nothing at all from 1994.
I also like that the bill throws dirt in the eyes of women, gays, immigrants, and labor unions. The only people stupid enough to screw over their allies would have to be Democrats.
Isn’t there a Goatse Award this guy can win?
And the 2010 “Asshole So Big, He Can Fuck A Truck” Award goes to….DAN RIEHL!
I would support throwing away of the phrase, “letting the perfect be the enemy of the good” but in return I’d like to see whiny references to hippie punching, pretending that there’s no correlation between having health insurance and having access to health care and the weird ass obsession with Rahm Emmanuel tossed in the crapper too. Is anyone here empowered to negotiate on behalf of the firebaggers so we can get this deal done?
Oh, Jennifer, give it up. This bill remains a piece o’ shit. It will not have the magic effects you ascribe to it. I may be better than nothing at all; it’s not going to control costs in the manner you’ve describes, nor is it going to expand coverage that dramiatically. It’s a very small first step; that’s all. Put away the God-damn pom-poms. This is a lesser evil; nothing more. Look up what the bill will do to disproportionate share funding for urban ERs. Pass it, by all means, but don’t celebrate; organize and improve the horrendous thing.
“Single payer is realistic – if we had a single pound of fucking leadership on it from Obama. Public option is even more doable… would have just needed an ounce of leadership and populism. There is nothing unrealistic about either, just a total lack of testicular fortitude in getting the message out and trying to change the direction this country is heading.”
Can’t agree with everything you said, but I agree with this – the Democratic leadership has displayed a spectacular lack of balls and unwillingness to stick to its principles over the last year. The fact that he turned it over to King Blue Dog Max Baucus at the very beginning didn’t bode well. Nice of them to finally be moving forward, but damn it, they should have gotten the ball rolling months ago. The moment it was clear they weren’t going to get 60 votes to support a public option, they should have defaulted to reconciliation and not abandoned PO except as an absolute last resort.
Still, this bill is better than nothing. But Christ, the Dems are not my favorite people right now.
For one hundred years, Presidents have tried to enact healthcare reform, including a public option.
For one hundred years, they’ve failed.
But they keep getting closer. That may stop happening after this go-round.
I agree with the sentiment, “The perfect is the enemy of the good.” We’re close enough now. Let’s grab it and then fix it. It’s how America has operated since 1776: grab first, fix later.
Excuse me, but I keep hearing about “lack of cost control”. While it’s true that there isn’t anything in the bill that says “you can only charge X for procedure Y”, it’s also true that there ARE things in the bill that say “you insurance companies have to spend 85% of the money you make on premiums on benefits”
I was actually talking about any control on the cost of the premiums. There’s nothing that prevents insurers from jacking up premium rates and manipulating the government into subsidizing the cost because the American people can’t afford it.
Costs absolutely CANNOT be controlled under the current system, where the friend I write about can only get care when she’s 2 or 3 pints low on blood; the hospital treats her for the immediate problem and shifts the cost onto everyone else – which is one of the biggest factors driving cost increases.
This bill does not ensure that people like your friend will be able to purchase affordable insurance that provides the preventative care she needs. (I’m sorry to hear this, by the way–it sounds absolutely harrowing). Hopefully, it will, or at least will cover her ER visits enough that she will be able to pay her bills.
It’s not that I’m blind to the need for healthcare reform. I know what our system does–it robs people of their dreams, bankrupts them, and kills them. I lived without health insurance for several years, and if I ever had to purchase insurance on the private market, I would be absolutely fucked. I’m glad the bill is solving some of these problems, but I’m not going to pretend I think it’s a good idea.
Doc – fuck off. I’m not waving any fucking pom-PONS, merely acknowledging that what is on offer is an improvement for many over what we have now.
The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. I know Kucinich et al have been promising everyone a magic Star Trek transporter that will cover the distance in a few seconds, but it ain’t going to happen that way, it never was going to happen that way, and if we do nothing now it also won’t happen that way 20 years from now.
So we need to start walking. And by all means, continue walking until we get to where we need to be.
I love how you liberals in your little echo chamber are already crowing about how Obama and Congressional Liberals are going to ram this bill through. But don’t count your chickens until they hatch, liberals.
The bottom line is that patriotic liberals like Dennis Kucinnuch and Bart Stupak still have the power to kill this tyrannical, Socialist, unconstitutional nightmare. I can only imagine the shock on your faces when you see the final vote tally in the House, and that you have failed by one or two votes.
Even the liberal media will then have to change the narrative, and go on for days and days about how Obama can’t even control his own party! Just the other day the Democrat Whip said he didn’t have the votes yet.
So it’s not over until it’s over, liberals. Just remember that.
Doc is a perfect example of a patriotic lib standing up to the Chicago thuggery of Obama. Together with conservatives, this Grand Alliance still has a chance to kill this bill.
I’m not waving any fucking pom-PONS
Pons Asinorum – Bridge over troubled fuckers.
I’d like to see whiny references to hippie punching,
Hey, it’s not a whine! It’s a Very Serious Complaint.
But really, I’m happy to give that up, but be warned that I will still talk about how leftist idealism is needed both for the Democratic party and for our country.
pretending that there’s no correlation between having health insurance and having access to health care
There can be a correlation, but not always. Having health insurance doesn’t always mean you’ll have good health care. I’m sure there’s a fancy Logic 101 term for that, but honestly, I slept through class.
and the weird ass obsession with Rahm Emmanuel tossed in the crapper too.
Amen to that one. WTF is that about? It’s vaguely racist, too. That said, I can’t figure out why half my friends seem to want to fuck the guy. That’s just weird.
T&U – my friend hasn’t paid any of her hospital bills. We have. She’s low income; it all got “written off” i.e. shifted to everyone else.
She tried to buy insurance; the small business she works for agreed to pay the premium on an individual policy for her since they didn’t have group coverage, but no one would insure her. With the subsidy, she absolutely does plan to buy insurance, and maybe finally someone will find out why she’s bleeding out.
As for “jacking up premium rates”, the provision that requires that most of the money collected for premiums be spent on benefits pretty much eliminates the greed motive for doing that – plus will just bring more pressure to bear to tighten the screws further on the insurers, expand medicare, or create a public option. We’ll see.
Jennifer–
I stand corrected on the “pom-PONS” thing–you obviously have some actual cheerleading experience. I do ont. I’m busy actually taking care of low-income patients in the hospitals that the decreased DiSH funding that this bill contains threatens. What is on offer is a small improvement for many, a threat to many others (read the God-damn thing, cheerleader), and, at best, a necessary evil. All of your cute Hallmark platitudes about the journey of a thousand miles are nice and everything, but I don’t remember you & yours being involved in the organizing of any of this. Show up at a few union rallies, gather some signature, pound some pavement and then tell me about this “thousand times better” bill. It may be necessary, but it’s no less a piece o’ shit.
That said, I can’t figure out why half my friends seem to want to fuck the guy.
Fuck him with extreme prejudice?
Emmanuel is doing his job as chief of staff: being the prez’s enforcer and lightning rod. So I attribute his policy failings to Obama, not him being a loose cannon.
Or, as I almost typed, a loose canon.
DocAmazing, please call your representative and tell him to KILL THIS BILL. We need real, patriotic liberals like you to help the Republicans do this.
Fuck off, troll.
I know how to spell pom-PONS because someone way upthread corrected your dumb ass on it.
As for your asshole comment about “platitudes”, I signed up over 50 small businesses in my area for the HCAN network in support of reform – before we got to where we are now – as a volunteer.
So fuck you, troll.
Can I point out that there isn’t a single person in here, except a troll or two, who thinks NOT passing this bill is a good thing?
Folks, we’re biting each other. Let’s pass this like a kidney stone and move on.
Don’t listen to childish Obama cultists like Jennifer, DoAmazing.
I think she must be on the rag again.
Let’s pass this like a kidney
stonesold and removed and move on.fiqqst for steak and kidney pie goodness
All of your cute Hallmark platitudes about the journey of a thousand miles are nice and everything, but I don’t remember you & yours being involved in the organizing of any of this. Show up at a few union rallies, gather some signature, pound some pavement and then tell me about this “thousand times better” bill.
Gosh, you’re sure an authority on what someone else has/hasn’t done.
And remember, liberals: pass this and you will take a real beating in the November elections. I’m sure DocAmazing agrees.
pass this and you will take a real beating in the November elections
But we will have it done, and it will not be repealed.
I’d rather lose moving the ball forward than lose running out the clock.
I’d rather lose moving the ball forward than lose running out the clock.
Yeah, actually, I am. I’ve had a gut-full of assholes slagging Jane Hamsher and Dennis Kucinich for standing on principle when they themselves have signed up A WHOLE FIFTY PEOPLE !!!11!one!!1!! Meanwhile, the people you’re slagging have carried a hell of a lot of water for this cause. When you’ve actually worked with CNA and SEIU and a few single payer organizations, you get to know who you’re working with–it’s a surprisingly small world. So while you’re busy talking shit about the DFHs who actually got us far enough for this sell-out mess of a bill to exist, those same DFHs are busy getting us to the next step.
Once again, pass the bill, but don’t have any illusions about what a wreck it is, and lay off those who aren’t cheering loudly enough. When you’ve put in a few years on this, you will have earned the right to slag someone else–not before.
“And remember, liberals: pass this and you will take a real beating in the November elections. I’m sure DocAmazing agrees.”
Just like after passing the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act, the Democrats took a great grandmother of all beatings in 1968.
But the acts were passed, Americans who belonged to minorities were equal under the law for the first time in history, conservatives got to ride the racial backlash into office for the next forty years (still hasn’t ended) but not actually reverse these achievements. And at the end of the day, it’s the racists who were sent home crying to their mamas that their privileged status was over and done with.
Just a thought.
Oh, DocAmazing, get the fuck over yourself already.
Or, more succinctly:
I’m going to enjoy laughing at you when this bill fails in the House vote.
I’ve had a gut-full of assholes slagging Jane Hamsher and Dennis Kucinich for standing on principle
If the Democratic base was merely the left-liberals, you’d have a point.
They aren’t.
Please shut up now.
And laugh even harder when Chief Justice Roberts and his Court strike it down as unconstitutional.
The liberal whining when that happens will be delicious.
Troll,
Kiss my ass.
On second thought, I don’t want your mouth anywhere near me – It is surely nasty.
Geez, I come here expecting lots of “Final Push of Obama’s long hard throbbing bill down republican throats” jokes and I get a bunch of trolls and infighting.
My Monday sucked already, but I had hope for my Sadly No fix, but, sadly, no 🙁
Ok, I did get a bit of a chuckle out of this:
VPR
By the way, Doc, I should be in DC on the 22nd.
I assume you will be there, correct?
Busy seeing patients. They can’t get anyone to cover for me.
…who comes short again and again…
VPR
Not just a VPR, it’s a TR VPR.
I recently called my (English-fluent, highly recommended, generally wonderful) doctor in Germany to make a non-emergency appointment. I had to wait A WHOLE WEEK! And pay €10! And then €5 for a prescription!
Darn that strict government regulation. It’s like there are socialest death panels lurking around every corner.
Once again, pass the bill, but don’t have any illusions about what a wreck it is, and lay off those who aren’t cheering loudly enough.
Errrrrrrrr, not for nothing, but…
No one in here is claiming this is anything but a first step. If that’s your definition of “train wreck,” that’s fine.
Second, no one is saying that those who aren’t cheering are wrong, nor are they slagging them.
In fact, the only people I’m hearing slag ANYBODY are…well…you.
And Troofie. Also.
Busy seeing patients. They can’t get anyone to cover for me.
Oh really?
Cuz here in NYC, we’re closing down clinics.
I guess your paycheck is a bit more important than, you know, the health and welfare of people…
Speaing of which, Actor, I’ll be in NYC in April for a business trip.
Got the sack to meet me and talk shit to me in person?
It’s like there are socialest death panels lurking around every corner.
Till, how much are the death panels over there in Germany? Maybe if we could convince the Republicans there’s money to be made in them…
Got the sack to meet me and talk shit to me in person?
Of course! Mind if I bring a few friends just to make sure there are witnesses to just how much blood there is in a troll?
“Oh, a whole 50 people!”
Yeah, asshole, that’s the way to encourage people to volunteer their time to progressive causes! Slag on them for the hours they put in of their own time. Make psychic calls about what they have or haven’t done.
Tell you what – I’m pretty fucking sure I signed up a lot more people for the cause than Jane fucking Hamsher. But ooooo, SHE’S an important BLOGGER!
How many people will get health care as a result of Jane Hamsher’s “principals”? I’d guess about zero.
Of course! Mind if I bring a few friends just to make sure there are witnesses to just how much blood there is in a troll?
I’m only going if you can promise me Batman-like sound effects.
OOF! POW! KA-ZAP!
Or her “principles” even. Also.
“why else are the insurance companies and the Republicans manning the barricades?”
Well, fer fuck’s sake, Actor, why do they do anything? Why are they screeching that Obama’s a “socialist” when he’s demonstrably anything but? Why did the Rethugs do their very best to destroy Clinton despite the fact that he gave them everything they could have possibly wanted? Bullies like picking on targets that don’t fight back, and a phantom target that isn’t really an enemy when it comes to hard results is the best of all possibilities for the scum: They get to look like a force to be reckoned with by flailing away nonstop and simultaneously shriek about what persecuted victims they are.
Gotta keep that pretense up for the rubes, after all. This is standard operating procedure, here. Why would they? The real question you should be asking is why wouldn’t they?
I’m only going if you can promise me Batman-like sound effects.
Meat’s back on the menu, boys!
As an outside observer, this Herculean effort to maintain (or improve) a dysfunctional system is just plain bizarre.
Yes, this bill is indeed a second-hand suppository for a nation in desperate need of an enema. But the result of keeping the status-quo in place for much longer will be both disgusting & deadly. Even from upwind, it’s pretty obvious that you don’t have another 20-25 years to dick around with baby-powder & Band-Aids anymore.
Unless there’s some provision in it that explicitly prohibits you from ever obtaining a public option, you need to pass the beast ASAP & start hitting the fucking streets demanding the same freedom of choice that the rest of the civilized world has been enjoying for years & years already. If you don’t think you’re getting the government you deserve, what sorts of activism are you ready, willing & able to engage in to change that?
Like the DFHs always said, if you don’t like the news, go out there & make some of your own.
Less yap, more slap.
Word.
Politics is not metaphysics. You can either support Team Pussywillow, or support Team Destroy-Fucking-Everything … guess who wins if you opt to sit in the bleachers & whine about how the bad guys don’t play fair?
Pouting is not a virtue. Wingnuts are the ultimate ninja warriors of pouting … & that alone should give you a clue as to its functional utility in the real world. Pouters make excellent toe-rags – or ballast – but I’d sure hate to have to depend on one to cover my back when shit gets real.
If this thing dies, don’t worry about selling your kidneys for food – the Goopers will already be baking them into a big yummy pie.
Jennifer–I hope it works out the way you and a lot of people are expecting it to–I really do. I just remain very, very skeptical.
I think part of the enmity in this debate is that both “sides” within the lefty-ish region of the spectrum have become very heated and we’ve started accusing each other of not caring about sick people and working people and poor people. So we keep going round and round and re-living old arguments while forgetting that we all really want the same thing and we just differ on how to achieve it. So again, I’ll hope for the best.
/peacemaking overearnestness
And DocAmazing, chilllll. No need to be a condescending jerkass.
The real question you should be asking is why wouldn’t they?
Because they didn’t when the bank bailouts were discussed.
It’s interesting that “Doc Amazing” can manage to find the time to “treat low income patients” all the while crawling up Jennifer’s leg. (EWWWW, sorry, Jennifer.) The docs where I work, where we actually do treat low income patients, are too fucking busy seeing patients to screw around on blogs during the working day.
The docs where I work, where we actually do treat low income patients, are too fucking busy seeing patients to screw around on blogs during the working day.
Obviously they are not “amazing.”
Let me ask a question if this health care bill will be a camel’s nose in a tent, why wasn’t medicare that very camel’s nose so that things are so much easier now.
Answer this is not going to make anything easier, but we are going to be told that we have this great health care syster so we don’t need to do anything more. watch.
Speaing of which, Actor, I’ll be in NYC in April for a business trip.
Get down to bidness, Troofie!
T&U – your skepticism is fine. I’m skeptical as well. I fully expect the insurers et al to try in every conceivable fashion to game the system. When they do, we’ll just have to try to fix it.
But for now, just being able to buy insurance is a big deal for a lot of people. If that’s the best that’s on offer (and it is), we need to at least get it done.
The docs where I work, where we actually do treat low income patients, are too fucking busy seeing patients to screw around on blogs during the working day.
Uh, yeah. All the docs I work with have very little time, too, and they don’t even treat low-income patients exclusively.
but if we let reform die now we won’t get another shot at it for 20 or so years
excuse me, where is the disgustingly graphic metaphor in this statement about HCR????
but, seriously – PASS THE BILL!
“Well, fer fuck’s sake, Actor, why do they do anything? Why are they screeching that Obama’s a “socialist” when he’s demonstrably anything but? Why did the Rethugs do their very best to destroy Clinton despite the fact that he gave them everything they could have possibly wanted? Bullies like picking on targets that don’t fight back, and a phantom target that isn’t really an enemy when it comes to hard results is the best of all possibilities for the scum: They get to look like a force to be reckoned with by flailing away nonstop and simultaneously shriek about what persecuted victims they are.”
That may be the best shorthand for movement conservative SOP that I’ve ever read.
It’s also why they attacked a ruined, starving country (Iraq) instead of a much more immediate threat like North Korea or Iran. And why the Dulles brothers used the CIA to overthrow moderate and democratic governments like Mossadegh, Arbenz and Lumumba’s but never had the stones to try the same thing in Moscow or Beijing. And why when Margaret Thatcher got the ball rolling thirty years ago the first government services she cut were those to widows (the most isolated people in society she could think of). Etc, etc, etc…
why wasn’t medicare that very camel’s nose so that things are so much easier now.
Two words: welfare reform.
People misunderstand Medicare and Medicaid, and assume they are interchangeable. This is why simply extending Medicare to people who really could afford to pay for it was not an option in the public domain.
what’s all this i hear about the socialist death penis if the health scare bill passes?
Cuz here in NYC, we’re closing down clinics.
I guess your paycheck is a bit more important than, you know, the health and welfare of people…
Wow, the breathtaking irony of this. Closing down clinics where sick children are treated is contributing to the health and welfare of people. Got it.
Marion–posting between patients. One of them is playing with the mouse right now, waiting for his DTaP shot. Haven’t the heart to tell him…
And yeah, nobody’s slagging anybody. “Fuck the purists” is a traditional Belgian greeting, right?
Speaing of which, Actor, I’ll be in NYC in April for a business trip.
Clearly, he’s attending Hara Heta Con.
Closing down clinics where sick children are treated is contributing to the health and welfare of people
Yup. For one day, we’re taking all the AMAZING DOCS out of the clinics and down to DC.
You should try it. It might do your humility a world of good.
Oh, see! I get it now! AMAZINGDOC…is that like ShamWow?…is doing all his Soshul Activision in between his patients.
That must be one busy freeway overpass he’s standing on.
You’ve got to be kidding. Whe I do take a day off, I get wailing in Spanish and English for days because momscan’t get their kids in to be seen. Healthcare–a right, not a privilege. that means someone’s gotta show up for work and provide it.
People misunderstand Medicare and Medicaid, and assume they are interchangeable. This is why simply extending Medicare to people who really could afford to pay for it was not an option in the public domain.
Why couldn’t the difference be explained to them? I think that would be pretty simple to do, especially when somewhere around 60% of Americans support single-payer.
The docs where I work, where we actually do treat low income patients, are too fucking busy seeing patients to screw around on blogs during the working day.
Maybe it’s really Greg House.
Or maybe he’s just a really, really incompetent doctor.
I know which one I’m suspecting.
And remember, liberals: pass this and you will take a real beating in the November elections
it’s very touching how the foxes have become so concerned about the security of the chickens this week
Whe I do take a day off, I get wailing in Spanish and English for days because momscan’t get their kids in to be seen.
Wow! One whole day? I can’t imagine that your schedule is so crammed that you can’t take one day off! What’s it like when you get sick?
Wow! I wonder, if you took that one whole day and helped us protest for more funding for healthcare, for passage of the bill, they might be able to afford to hire another doctor!
Actor, thank heaven it’s virtually dry on the bottom… Literally dry would have been neater and nicer to be near, but we’ll take what we can get!
fiqqst for steak and kidney pie goodness
Mmmm… Chip Shop… uhhhh…
Speaing of which, Actor, I’ll be in NYC in April for a business trip.
Got the sack to meet me and talk shit to me in person?
Check the convention calendar, see which conventioneers he’ll be turning tricks for.
FYWPX2!!!
Goddammit. My post was eated twice.
My point was/is that around 2/3s of Americans support single-payer. Why is it a political loser?
Your answer to this question most likely reflects your opinion on the current health care bill.
Nancy Pelosi wants to give birth to a new kind of freedom in America — the freedom from being “job-locked.”
In an interview with Rachel Maddow Thursday evening, Pelosi asked Americans to “think” about a bright, new, liberating kind of utopia:
Think of an economy where people could be an artist or a photographer, a writer without worrying about keeping their day job in order to have health insurance. Or that people could start a business and be entrepreneurial and take risks, but not be job-locked because a child has a child has asthma or diabetes or someone in the family is bipolar. You name it, any condition is job-locking.
Maddow was so overwhelmed and smitten with Pelosi’s remarks that she posted the interview on her website under the following title: “Finally! Pelosi frames health reform for the win. (Hint: It’s about freedom.)”
The problem with Pelosi’s remarks, however, is that from hindsight, they are not bright, new, or liberating. On the contrary, almost identical words were penned over a hundred years ago by another champion of economic “freedom”: Karl Marx. Marx criticized the private economy because it led to the “renunciation of life and of human needs.”
Like Pelosi, Marx was deeply troubled by an economic system that left most people job-locked and unable to satisfy their “human need” to become more authentic. In other words, the more you have to work, said Marx, “the less you eat, drink, buy books, go to the theater or to balls, or to the public house, and the less you think, love, theorize, sing, paint, fence, etc.”
Marx chastised the middle class in England for being “so incurably debased by self-interest” and thirsty for a “quick profit” that they were incapable of recognizing the alienation from their true selves. Communist society, then, was the cure that could liberate us from our false selves and usher in a new kind of creativity and authenticity. Says Marx:
[C]ommunist society … regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticize after dinner, as the spirit moves me …”
This kind of sheer lunacy could have been hatched only by an unemployed academic and journalist like Marx, who, by the way, was supported financially in his authentically job-liberated struggle against capitalism by his wealthy colleague Friedrich Engels. What’s most disturbing is the number of wild-eyed crusaders, both then and now, who have fallen for Marx’s creative definition of “freedom.”
As for that nagging issue of just how “communist society” will “regulate the general production” after the socialist revolution, Engels had this to say:
The community will have to calculate what it can produce with the means at its disposal; and in accordance with the relationship of this productive power to the mass of consumers it will determine how far it has to raise or lower production.
In other words, leave it to the “community” (government) to worry about levels of production and consumption in order for the newly liberated and formerly “job-locked” citizens to pursue their lifelong dreams of being artists, writers, or photographers.
Friedrich Hayek wrote about this subtle shift in the word “freedom” over sixty years ago. He argued that as socialists began coming under fire for promoting servitude and control, they made the creative decision to harness to their “cart the strongest of all political motives — the craving for freedom.” For Hayek,
The subtle change in meaning to which the word ‘freedom’ was subjected in order that this argument sound plausible is important. To the great apostles of political freedom the word had meant freedom from coercion, freedom from the arbitrary power of other men, release from the ties which left the individual no choice but obedience to the orders of a superior to whom he was attached.
For the socialists, however, “before man could be truly free, the ‘despotism of physical want’ had to be broken, the ‘restraints of the economic system’ relaxed.” For Hayek, this new definition of freedom was simply “another name for the old demand for an equal distribution of wealth.”
Hayek asks a fascinating question that each and every American needs to consider before deciding whether to return any Obamacare-supporting politician to power this fall:
Who can seriously doubt … that the power which a multi-millionaire, who may be my neighbor and perhaps my employer, has over me is very much less than that which the smallest [bureaucrat] possess who wields the coercive power of the state and on whose discretion it depends whether and how I am to be allowed to live or to work?
Nancy Pelosi’s theory of “economic freedom,” you see, requires legions of new bureaucrats wielding the power of the state so that you can be liberated from your inauthentic, job-locked selves. If we take freedom in its true meaning — as freedom from coercion — we see instantly, however, that indeed, I am less coerced by a neighboring millionaire than by the tiniest government bureaucrat deciding where and when I can see a doctor, go to school, or become job-locked.
Years ago, before he died, I asked my father what he liked most about working in the home-building industry. After having been “job-locked” in the housing industry for over twenty years, he told me the following: “For me, the best thing of all is seeing a new family move into one of our homes.”
My father wasn’t a writer or an artist, but he was a kind, decent, hardworking man who loved his job and his family. Rather than struggle against the system and neglect his children like Marx did, my father felt it was part of his job, not the government’s, to take care of his family — including our health care.
Sounds pretty authentic to me.
So we’re looking at a doc who is so Amazing that he can yell at us about organizing, but when a nationwide protest is happening that’s going to directly help him, and help his patients, he can’t be arsed to show up!
Y’all know that you got the amazing doc onside about passing the shit sandwich. I mean, there’s no need to gang up on him no more.
Because, he’s right in that it’s a shit sandwich and he’s also right that there has been a huge amount of backlash at left opposition to this bill.
It’s gonna be great when we finally are able to make the righties bend over for HCR and take the opportunity to shove the whole long hard process down their throat.
Ass to mouth, Troofie.
Hope there’s not too much santorum for you.
On the contrary, almost identical words were penned over
afour hundred years ago by another champion of economic “freedom”:Karl MarxAdam Smith.Fixed for accuracy.
Seriously, Troofie, when will your side actually pick up a history book?
Oh, here’s some shit to back that claim up.
A HUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE part of the problem is that our healthcare system is complicated and people don’t even understand the basics. I’ve seen otherwise smart people confuse the difference between “single payer” and “socialized medicine,” which even a commie pinko like me opposes. Unfortunately, I haven’t seen much Democratic leadership on explaining all this shit until very recently.
Check the convention calendar, see which conventioneers he’ll be turning tricks for.
The Auto Show is in town. I got my eye on a honey who works for Lamborghini.
Wow! One whole day? I can’t imagine that your schedule is so crammed that you can’t take one day off! What’s it like when you get sick?
Wow! I wonder, if you took that one whole day and helped us protest for more funding for healthcare, for passage of the bill, they might be able to afford to hire another doctor
Wow! I can’t afford to get sick, and when I do, it screws thing sup for families whoneed to have their kids seen by a doctor. there aren’t that many docs working in the poor neighborhoods these days.
Wow! The money’s not there yet. Would be nice, wouldn’t it?
Wow! I spent a whole bunch of days working with SEIU (and, when they screwed over Sal Roselli, with NUHW) and with the CNA and with Californians for Single Payer and with the (shudder) Democratic Party in San Francisco getting things this far, all on those days off. I’m sure you can take it a littel further without my presence. I called Nancy Pelosi and Jackie Speier already; also wrote my usual never-to-be published LTTE to the Chron. Let me know how the cherry blossoms look, ‘kay?
It’s gonna be great when we finally are able to make the righties bend over for HCR and take the opportunity to shove the whole long hard process down their throat.
By the way, this is not a mixed metaphor. It’s only possible if their heads are shoved way up their asses.
CONTINUE TO SPREAD THE WORD!!!!!!! said,
March 15, 2010 at 20:24
i don’t want to read any more of your marxist-leninist propoganda
IS THIS HAPPENING TO ANYONE ELSE BESIDES ME? Gr.
Anyway, some shit to back up that 2/3s shit.
There was some other stuff about people’s ignorance regarding healthcare systems, but I can’t be arsed to re-create it.
Think of an economy where people could be an artist or a photographer, a writer without worrying about keeping their day job in order to have health insurance. Or that people could start a business and be entrepreneurial and take risks, but not be job-locked because a child has a child has asthma or diabetes or someone in the family is bipolar.
Yeah, that just all sounds so fucking awful.
Imagine not having to be a wage slave! Imagine not having to work at a job you hate just because it’s got medical benefits! THE HORROR THE HORROR
oh, and GOOD BONUS STUPID POINTS for the “Pelosi said something that sounded something like Karl Marx once said therefore OMFG OBAMAS NAZI STALINIST DICTATORSHIP”.
I can’t afford to get sick
So you go in when you’re sick and make well kids sick and sick kids sicker?
Impressive commitment to the common good.
Listen, Doc, I’m sure you’re a competent doctor and all that, but don’t come on here and lecture us about commitment and activism.
You want to do good, then do right, and find out who you’re talking to first, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmK?
If Congress passes a takeover of health care via dubious means, flouting the consent of the governed, the consequences may be far more profound than dreamed by Reid, Pelosi, and Obama. In addition to violating the spirit and perhaps the letter of the Constitution by changing the House rules to deem that the Senate Health Care Bill has passed, Speaker Pelosi is now thinking about folding the federal government’s takeover of students loans into the process. I’ll leave the discussion of the finer points of constitutionality of this power-grab to those with more expertise in the matter. My own thinking is that with this latest outrage, better political guidance may be found in the Declaration of Independence.
But when a long Train of abuses and Usurpations pursing invariably the same Object evinces a Design to reduce then under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.
If the Congressmen who found their town hall meetings last summer contentious actually vote to pass this abomination, it’s a sure bet that they ain’t seen nothing yet when it comes to constituents with their dander up. Nor do I think that some citizens will be willing to wait for November’s election to let the full extent of their displeasure be known.
I am sure that I am not alone in wondering whether I have any civil obligation to obey the laws that this Congress would pass in the manner being contemplated. If they continue to express their contempt for the Constitution as they attempt to amass power, how can I adequately express my contempt with them?
I already suspect that an all-time record number of census forms are going to be returned with all but the first question on number of persons in the household left blank. Census workers who try to follow up on such omissions are likely to run into a polite but explicitly none of this government’s business stonewall. If the president and the leaders of his party in Congress do not desist with their power-grabs, that attitude may quickly spread to other areas where private citizens make contact with the federal government. In fact, there are already indications that more Americans are ignoring the income tax laws by conducting business transactions in cash and avoiding banks because of disgust with the government.
According to a Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. (FDIC) report last December, the number of households that do not use banks has been rising. Perhaps far more troubling for the coffers of the federal and state governments is this:
Tax revenues are falling far more rapidly at the federal, state and local level than would be expected by the small drop in real gross domestic product (GDP) and changes in tax law that have occurred since the recession began. The currency in circulation outside the U.S. Treasury, Federal Reserve banks and the vaults of depository institutions — that is, the currency held by individuals and businesses — has grown by 13.3 percent in the last two years, while real nominal (not inflation-adjusted) GDP has not grown at all, and real (inflation-adjusted) GDP incomes have fallen by more than 3 percent. With the growth of electronic means of payment and financial service providers, it would be expected that the currency component of GDP would fall, not rise.
Some of this increased currency in circulation may reflect the desire people often have to keep ready cash around in uncertain times, but part of it is surly a rise in the underground economy because of distrust of the federal government and hatred of its rising taxation.
Many studies have shown that when people believe the taxes they are required to pay are reasonable and that the political leaders tend to spend their tax dollars wisely, tax compliance rises. And vice versa. In the United States, there is increased evidence that many tax dollars are not being spent wisely and are often used to pay off political cronies.
Perhaps even more significant than the pork and the payoffs, or even the 1000+-page bills that no one gets to read before the vote, is the belief that this administration has a Leona Helmsley attitude toward paying taxes. From a Treasury Secretary and a chairman of the House Ways and Means committee who got wrist-slaps for income tax evasion to reports that some members of Congress have cheated Maryland and Virginia out of property taxes by claiming homeowners’ exemptions meant for full-time residents of those states, the impression is that of an arrogant ruling class who consider themselves above the law.
Adding to this feeling that taxpayers are so many chumps comes the recent story that salaries and wages of federal employees are higher than those for the same positions in the private sector in eight out of ten occupations. Even more galling is the information that federal employee fringe benefits are more than four times more generous. In fact, of the twenty-five highest median income counties in the United States in 2009, eight of them are in the Greater Washington, D.C. metropolitan area. With many states struggling with double-digit unemployment and many industries looking at increased regulatory costs that may well cause them to shed more jobs in the future, is it any wonder that public approval of congressional leaders is now at all-time lows? Or that a Rasmussen poll last month reported that only 21% of voters say that the U.S. government as a whole currently enjoys the consent of the governed?
From a stimulus bill that did just the opposite to private-sector employment to a power-grab being marketed as health care reform, nothing about this administration is turning out to be as promised during the 2008 campaign. As for those 2006 campaign claims that giving the majority to Democrats would usher in the most ethical Congress ever, both the financial and the sex scandals continue apace. Against this background, the enactment of ObamaCare by nefarious means and against the wishes of most voters has the potential to usher in a widespread citizen revolt against what can best be called taxation with misrepresentation.
It will be interesting to see what the final numbers are when the current income tax filing season comes to a close. Will the trend of tax revenues dropping faster than GDP continue? The CBO did report a 17% drop in fourth-quarter estimated tax receipts from individual taxpayers not subject to withholding, from January 2010 over January 2009. Such taxes are most often paid by two types of people: the self-employed and wealthy investors. Self-employed people with smaller operations may decide to go underground either in part or entirely. Wealthy investors have opportunities to reduce their current taxes by sheltering some income and by deferring gains.
Another thing to watch for is the error rate on returns to increase. Boxes left unchecked, schedules left unattached, or transposed numbers can be a form of protest by people who would never consider actual cheating. It is akin to not answering all the questions on the census form, only better. That’s because when the IRS contacts the taxpayer about the mistake, it can serve as an excuse to write that letter asking them to please excuse the inadvertent mistake. You known, just like they did with Tim Geithner.
Societies that are open, just, and foster civic-mindedness tend to have small underground economies and high rates of voluntary compliance with tax laws. Those that are filled with corruption and which disregard the will of the citizens tend to have large underground economies and much tax evasion. Historically Americans have very high levels of voluntary compliance.
In their quest to force an unsustainable European-style health care system on America, Obama, Pelosi, and Reid may end up creating something entirely unexpected: American ingenuity and can-do attitude wedded to an Italian sensibility towards tax evasion. Should that attitude take hold as more than a short-term reaction to an injustice that can be corrected with the next election, this nation may well become ungovernable.
S C R O L L L L L…..
In addition to violating the spirit and perhaps the letter of the Constitution by changing the House rules to deem that the Senate Health Care Bill has passed
that’s an impressive quantity of ignorance
FYWPFYWPFYWPFYWPFYWP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Two words: welfare reform.
People misunderstand Medicare and Medicaid, and assume they are interchangeable. This is why simply extending Medicare to people who really could afford to pay for it was not an option in the public domain.
Something like 60% of people support single-payer when they understand wtf it is. Otherwise smart people I know confuse “single payer” and “socialized medicine.” Seems like a pretty simple problem to solve, and I don’t know why Democratic messaging and leadership on this has been so piss-poor.
“Democratic leadership.” Oxymoron, probably with the emphasis on moron.
My own thinking is that with this latest outrage, better political guidance may be found in the Declaration of Independence.
But when a long Train of abuses and Usurpations pursing invariably the same Object evinces a Design to reduce then under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.
Torture? Okay.
Spying on American citizens? Okay.
Pre-emptive invasions of countries that pose no threat? Okay.
Indefinite detention? Okay.
Neglect of domestic security until after the fact? Okay.
Trying to get health coverage for people? OMFG REVOLUTION REVOLUTION AUS ARMES CITOYENS
“That may be the best shorthand for movement conservative SOP that I’ve ever read.”
It’s depressing to realize how predictable the bastards are when you come to recognize that their signature move these days is to be able to simultaneously whine and gloat. That’s Rush Limbaugh’s bullshit “act” in a nutshell.
“Because they didn’t when the bank bailouts were discussed.”
Well, that particular crime was a little different than Business As Usual, no? (Which is saying something, considering how bad the Usual is.) Nor was it easy to disguise. I think the Rethugs were inclined to tread slightly more carefully than they almost always do at that point; they knew full well how unpopular the Billionaires’ Bailout was. I doubt they wanted to risk upsetting the applecart just then, nor would they have wanted to offend their Corporate sponsers or the super rich by attacking Obama’s decision to shovel public money at the greedy swine.
“But when a long Train of abuses and Usurpations pursing invariably the same Object evinces a Design to reduce then under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.”
Out of curiosity, show me one single capitalist and democratic country that was turned into a dictatorship following the adoption of universal health care.
I mean, there are tons of counter-examples – countries like Germany, Taiwan, South Korea adopted universal health care while they were still dictatorships, and then later became working democracies (spectacularly working I might add) without having to shed UHC. Using those examples, I could argue that if anything universal health care leads away from despotism and not towards it.
But I will admit that correlation is not causation, if you, in exchange, can show me just one example, just a single one, where there has even been correlation between going UHC and going despotic. Show me one single precedent for what you fear is going to happen to the United States. Not ten, not five, not even two, just one. Pretty please?
People misunderstand Medicare and Medicaid, and assume they are interchangeable. This is why simply extending Medicare to people who really could afford to pay for it was not an option in the public domain.
What about for people over 55? My entire problem with the entire HCR debate has been the presumption that public opinion is immutable. I thought that electing a leader with rhetorical skills would help move public opinion, kind of like the anti-Reagan. And that whole grassroots army of activists could be mobilized.
If HCR does in fact succeed, it will be because the Dems got 60 votes in the Senate, unlike Clinton or Carter. If we don’t, its because we lost that (has anyone at the DSCC been fired? Anybody at all?).
I also think its funny that people seem to think that Rahm Emmanuel has no power. He is the 2nd most powerful man in the executive branch. He controls who gets to see the President – this isn’t conspiracy theory stuff.
My own thinking is that with this latest outrage, better political guidance may be found in the Declaration of Independence.
Nothing like finding cool decisive thinking in a document drawn up by a bunch of drunks on the Fourth of July, I say.
I thought that electing a leader with rhetorical skills would help move public opinion, kind of like the anti-Reagan.
Yea. We all thought that.
John D,
Here’s the GOP problem on healthcare reform:
The party is supported by the insurance industry.
The party is supported by the AMA.
No matter what they do on reform, they’re going to piss off someone. So their best recourse, politically, was to remain silent and then come after the Dems in November, I think.
But they didn’t, which says a lot.
I still think the bill should be passed. But I really hope we can learn some kind of lesson from it. People who’s ideas did not work should not be given a second chance.
And DocAmazing, I’m on your side, but you might want to chill. Just write a scrip for medical marijuana and maybe you and actor can toke up.
Out of curiosity, show me one single capitalist and democratic country that was turned into a dictatorship following the adoption of universal health care.
Well, Britain got Thatcher.
No?
“Well, Britain got Thatcher. No?”
Sadly, it doesn’t take a dictatorship to put a piece of shit in power.
“Democratic leadership.” Oxymoron, probably with the emphasis on moron.
Good point, though it occurs to me that the main source of the conflict over this legislation among Dems and assorted lefty-types is how we perceive the Democratic Party in the first place. Some of us think they just couldn’t get their shit together, but are basically well-meaning; some of us think they’re doing what they can in a dysfunctional environment, and some of us think that they’re corporate shills who are simply engaging in kabuki (but without, like, all the pretty stuff). This is obviously going to affect how you think about this bill.
The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people’s money.
Sadly, it doesn’t take a dictatorship to put a piece of shit in power.
Nope. Hey, we do it all the time here!
Three-way douchebaggery: Nick Gillespie touts a Reason interview with Amy Alkon at Breitbart’s site.
Margaret Thatcher said,
March 15, 2010 at 20:50
The problem with
Socialismcasino capitalism is you eventually run out of other people’s money.fiqqoured.
Three-way douchebaggery: Nick Gillespie touts a Reason interview with Amy Alkon at Breitbart’s site.
Ugh, DO NOT WANT! But that has got to be some sort of wingnut critical mass or sumtin.
Think of an economy where people could be an artist or a photographer
I do, every semester that my kid’s in school.
I call and write my rep regularly but it’s hopeless, Tim Murphy thinks that R after his name means reactionary. he plays the part poorly but he is consistent.
Margaret Thatcher said,
March 15, 2010 at 20:50
Bus stop rat bag, “Ha Ha charade!” you are.
You fucked up old hag, “Ha Ha charade!” you are.
You radiate cold shafts of broken glass.
You’re nearly a good laugh,
Almost worth a quick grin.
You like the feel of steel,
You’re hot stuff with a hatpin,
And good fun with a hand gun.
You’re nearly a laugh,
You’re nearly a laugh
But you’re really a cry.
The three-way douchebaggery is not available for me to watch (Praise Jeeezus!) but the comments are fascinating. The target audience hates it.
Three-way douchebaggery: Nick Gillespie touts a Reason interview with Amy Alkon at Breitbart’s site.
NO THANKS. I’m staying in the boat. I just looked at Rielle Hunter’s interview with GQ (and the accompanying pictures *gag*), and my head nearly exploded. Not going to do anything else risky today.
Here’s a simple question for liberals:
Do you believe in capitalism? Remember: The USSR failed for a reason.
Three-way douchebaggery: Nick Gillespie touts a Reason interview with Amy Alkon at Breitbart’s site.
Please say she mentioned me!
Do you believe in capitalism?
We believe in the kind of capitalism that Adam Smith did.
You know? Free market? Non-corporate? Filled with real competition?
Not the corporate-socialist crap you socialist-crapholes believe in.
Remember: The USSR failed for a reason.
Only because Reagan was ZOMG so manly that he beat it with one hand tied behind his back.
Just had the most disgusting image float through my mind due to the wording on that post. *shudder*
Wow, no one even quoted Bookmark this for our poor, poor Troofy rag doll.
Also, nice to see him back to the old standard of threatening the regulars.
The USSR failed for a reason.
Because they didn’t believe hard enough?
Remember: The USSR failed for a reason.
Did Troofie just admit that Reagan was not the reason the Soviet fell apart????
So it’s not over, but the bill is doomed? Hedging your bets there, aren’t you?
“Do you believe in capitalism?”
Of course I do. I’ve personally seen it doing beautiful work in France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Spain, Britain, Canada and Israel. All of which have universal health care.
By the way, you really should read Adam Smith someday. He has some interesting views on taxation and regulation.
Remember: The USSR failed for a reason.
Reagan shoved his massive USA FREEDOM #1 down their throats.
I thought it was a thoughtcrime to acknowledge capitalism requires belief, instead of just being the way the world fucking works.
Look, the bill is largely watered down to the point of being meaningless, which is exactly what the Democrats wanted in the first place to appease the trough of special interests that got them elected in the first place. I couldn’t give a crap about it.
“Long Train of Abuses and Usurpations”
Well there goes another of my band’s potential names down the shitter.
Reagan shoved his massive taxpayer-funded deficit-financed USA FREEDOM #1 down their throats.
fizzzored.
I’ve had a gut-full of assholes slagging Jane Hamsher and Dennis Kucinich for standing on principle when they themselves have signed up A WHOLE FIFTY PEOPLE !!!11!one!!1!!
LOLWUT
Fifty small businesses does not equal fifty people unless they are all one-person operations.
Hamsher is so “principled” as to team up with Grover Norquist, too busy gleefully anticipating all the butthurt on the left that will surely follow to comprehend that she’s being chumped – & to christen herself the progressive Jean D’Arc of the Billkillers’ Crusade, surely knowing damn well that by doing so she’s overtly aiding the GOP precisely when it’s at its lowest point in many years. With progressives like that, who needs neocons?
The Hamsher-Norquist Axis Of Butthurt has thrown a lot of sand in the gears of HCR, turned plenty of REAL progressives against one another – & helped noone but Hamsher & Norquist.
Dennis Kucinich has an awesome track-record of rhetorical grandstanding, with circa sweet-fuck-all in terms of real concrete legislative results to show for it all – there’s no doubt that he makes all the right noises, but there’s just no cattle to go with the hat; I’d much rather find less to agree with him about, & see him actually get some shit done. He gets kudos for voting with an actual conscience – but not for stunts like a introducing a public-option bill without bothering to organize any Congressional support for it. Such pointless windmill-tilting just winds up cheapening the very ideas it purports to defend by making progressivism look like Teh Losers’ Brigade.
Moving to impeach Bush or Cheney when everybody knows it’s got zero odds of happening isn’t exactly noble or heroic … in fact, wingnuts then see – & loudly proclaim – that result as constituting full exoneration of their favorite evil cyborg & his cowboy-puppet. Pyrrhic victories don’t get you into the playoffs, no matter how bitchin’ you look “winning” them.
These people are awesome at sounding good & rousing righteous indignation, but they suck massive ass at actually improving anything when it matters. If you want to see how well they do at producing unity or solidarity, consult this thread.
Your fastest growing demographic is 55+ … I don’t think they can afford to wait until HCR passes a Purity Test.
He is the 2nd most powerful man in the executive branch.
After the vice-president, right?
He controls who gets to see the President – this isn’t conspiracy theory stuff.
Y’know, I have this weird condition that when someone has to say “this isn’t conspiracy theory stuff”, I immediately presume what he just said is conspiracy theory stuff.
The problem with Socialism is you eventually run out of other people’s money
the problem with this proposition is that i pay taxes so it is MY money
“Reagan shoved his massive taxpayer-funded deficit-financed USA FREEDOM #1 down their throats.”
You’ll enjoy this;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USDebt.png
You can literally watch the deficit bounce upwards the moment Reagan came into office, then finally stabilize and get brought down during the Clinton years, then bounce back up the moment W came into office.
For the first time in a quarter century, the deficit’s actually gotten worse under a Democratic leader, so for the first time in a quarter century, they suddenly notice and, so, therefore, must teabag.
Lovely people, really – their consistency is matched only by their competence.
So please, call your Congressdude
“Hello, Congressman Lebowski?”
“Dude.”
“Ah, yes, Dude. I’m calling because I’d very much like you to vote for the health care reform bill. We need this.”
“Well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”
“No, it’s the will of the American people! Even if the bill is flawed, it’s more than our uninsured have right now. The insurance companies don’t care about them, and they have the power to do whatever they want!”
” ::fffft:: Bummer.”
“What?”
“That’s a bummer, man!”
Give it up, Saint Jim. Punch-the hippie is tired. Anyone who knows anything at all about HCR knows that it wouldn’t have gotten this far withour the likes of Kucinich and Hamsher. You slagging the left is not helpful, comprendes?
Once again, the poeple that moved the ball this far get a bunch of shit thrown at them. Once again, pass the bill, but don’t pretend that it’s anything like what it needs to be–and don’t pretend that failing to applaud loudly enough is prima facie evidence of personal failing.
Yea, that Kucinich: real progressive
Now, Doc, compare him to a real progressive: Bernie Sanders, who actually writes legislation that GETS PASSED and doesn’t grandstand about it.
Unless, you know, you want to call Bernie Sanders, duly elected Socialist Senator from Vermont, a centrist?
Apples and oranges; one’s a senator, one’s a representative; one’s pushing from the left, the other’s already outside and having to caucus with the Dems to get anything done. Like I said, punch-the-hippe is a dead-end game. Didn’t work in 2000; not working now.
Also, I would call my Congressthing, but I kind of think Bilirakis wouldn’t take my call to begin with.
Apples and oranges
True: one’s a progressive who got himself elected statewide in Vermont as a Socialist, the other is a limousine liberal who talks a good game but stands foursquare against any progress.
“Limousine liberal”? Jesus. Actor, are you quoting Rush relfelxively or ironically?
This discussion, like all youse guys, has a severe shortage of PENIS.
“Limousine liberal”? Jesus. Actor, are you quoting Rush relfelxively or ironically?</i?
As a member of the original limousine liberal contingent, you may consider my use like that of a black man who feels free to use the "N" word.
But of course, we’re not punching hippies, right, Doc? 😉
I assume this is snark.
I guess not. Do you know what the position of chief of staff is? There are actual functions, you know. Do you actually think a policy difference between Biden and Emmanuel gets decided in the VP’s favor? Have you at least seen the West Wing? Have you heard of Jim Baker? Sherman Adams? Hamilton Jordon?
Clinton’s early failures were blamed on him choosing an inexperienced non-insider, Mack McLarty as COS (as with everything else Clinton, Obama mindlessly did a complete 180 – but still ended up in the same place).
Emmanuel is a larger than life character and relishes playing the bad cop. My guess is that most of the blame ends up on Emmanuel because people are a little hesitant to call Obama a worthless piece of shit but still want to express disagreement with the administration.
But the cossacks work for the czar.
I’m a victim and I want respect!
But of course, we’re not punching hippies, right, Doc? 😉
Then it’s an incredible simulation.
When you find yourself striking leftward, know that you’re aiming the wrong way before you swing. Of course, it’s safer to punch hippies; you’ve got plenty of centrists to back you up.
Have you heard of Jim Baker? Sherman Adams? Hamilton Jordon?
I’m unsure what a televangelist, the guy on the beer bottle and a basketball player have to do with one another. Aside from possibly the workings of a fine “walk into a bar” joke.
Y’know, next time y’all see a shit sammich, could you not just smear it all over the thread? There’s a thing called “baggies.” You want to chat about it, fine. No need to stain the walls.
Y’know, Doc, that punching you’re feeling is just another hippie trying to knock some sense into your thick skull…
DocAmazing, can you cite the sections of the bill that are “likely to strip funds from urban ERs” or “may well increase the tax burden on unions”? Similarly, can anybody else cite to the most egregious sections of the bill, the parts that make it so shitty?
I’m not trolling here. But I keep hearing about what a shit sandwich this bill is, without any specifics. If someone who has read the bill can actually point to provisions and say “This does X” or “This is supposed to look like it does Y but it really only does Z,” I could check it out myself.
I’ve read the Democrats’ section-by-section summary and analysis, which is obviously a pro-bill read on it. I’ve read the Republican analysis (which — surprise, surprise! — focuses on the overall tax costs, with only a few comments about what the GOP thinks are specific negative attributes of the bill.
So… who can explain — with cite references, ideally — what is so shitty about this bill that it ought to be killed instead of passed and then fixed (which seems to be the current approach the Dems are taking)?
Dan, the union health insurance plans would rank among the “cadillac plans” that would have to be taxed under some scenarios to pay for healthcare reform. That’s why it might increase the tax burden on union workers.
I’d just like to point out, far after the fact, how fucking funny it is that Toofie wants to fight Actor212 out behind the athletic fields after school.
Why, that’s about as effective as scrolltrolling a fucking lefty comedy webblog. I wonder if Toofie thinks this will make Actor suddenly change his mind about Single Payer or Anarcho-Capitalism or something?
No, I take it back. I don’t wonder at all. It fits perfectly with his muddled worldview that he’d imagine that assault and battery would change anybody’s mind; I’m sure it’s also a tell on his frustrated, impotent life that he wishes to strike out at somebody, anybody.
OK, it isn’t funny. It’s sad.
Also, speaking as part of the younger contingent of the commentariat, can I just say that I really don’t understand why there’s a continuation of “hippies”?
I mean, unless all of you are old enough to be part of that whole 60s thing (which is a possibility, given the general sense I get of the commentariat), shouldn’t it be Dirty Fuckin’ Leftist?
Or are we taking it back for some reason? Because personally, I think it’d be better to just fucking leave it where it dropped in the 70s.
shouldn’t it be Dirty Fuckin’ Leftist?
Considering that my hair is non-existent, not to mention not long, and I bathe daily, you’re probably right…
The USSR failed for a reason.
Because they didn’t believe hard enough?
If you want Stalin to live, clap! CLAP HARDER!
It fits perfectly with his muddled worldview that he’d imagine that assault and battery would change anybody’s mind
Chow, it’s not about changing anyone’s mind. It’s about him exacting revenge for all the sleepless nights he’s spent licking his wounds after he’s sparred with me.
Gots a surprise for him 😉
Dennis has been making people mad for a long time.
Sensors detect high levels of Internet Tough Guy in this sector.
A CHALLENGER APPEARS!
LOL PWNED
What borough you in, Actawh? Let me guess, Manhattan? Probably in the Upper West Side?
Smatter, Troofie? Going to use the old “Oh, NYC is too big to find you, so I didn’t bother looking” excuse?
That’s right, some Upper West Side cosmopolitan elitist. No wonder you’re a lib, you’ve never been in the real America.
Either that or some Brooklyn hipster.
Can I just say, because my butt is still sore, that to sign up 50 small business owners in support of OMG SOSHULIZM!!!1! in a racist red state requires, you know, going to see quite a few MORE THAN 50 small business owners? And being verbally abused by a fair number of those who fall into the less intelligent/sane category?
I worked 7 fucking days a week (my regular 5 days of “real” work and my days off for volunteer work) for 3 months to get that many signed up.
Jane Hamsher can bite my ass.
No wonder you’re a lib, you’ve never been in the real America
Really?
I’ve been in 40 states, Troofie, including yours.
How many you been in that didn’t involve a violating a restraining order?
Jane Hamsher can bite my ass.
It’s just going to make it sorer.
And, from the comfort of my 95% blue district in Brooklyn, let me say thanks.
And, from the comfort of my 95% blue district in Brooklyn
You mean the one you couldn’t be bothered to leave to meet us in the warehouse district last Tuesday night?
Or are we taking it back for some reason? Because personally, I think it’d be better to just fucking leave it where it dropped in the 70s.
Fine with me, especially since I spent most of my undergrad years complaining about being surrounded by hippies. I was just trying not to confuse the Olds. 🙂
So which is it, Actawh? Brooklyn or Manhattan?
Tell you what, Troofie. I’ll meet you on the bridge. Pick one.
Don’t worry, I’ll make sure they find the carcass when I’m done…
You mean the one you couldn’t be bothered to leave to meet us in the warehouse district last Tuesday night?
Husbandly duty called. I’ll try for next month.
That’s right, some Upper West Side cosmopolitan elitist. No wonder you’re a lib, you’ve never been in the real America.
Christ, Twoofie, what the hell happened to your obligatory post-9/11 “I LOVE NY” routine?
Someone’s letting the terrorists win, I see.
Either that or some Brooklyn hipster.
I have it on good knowledge that actor can be seen in the SNL intro at 0:28.
The SNL intro – you know, the place you heartlanders get all you Intimate Knowledge Of All Things NYC.
LOL
Or one of “those people” from the South Bronx, I bet. Or really one of “those people” from anywhere outside the Upper East Side, also known as the Great Republican Reservation of the Five Boroughs.
The 125th Street subway station on the Lexington Avenue line. The 6 train express platform.
You pick the time.
Husbandly duty called.
Whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiicrack!
There really isn’t any reason to slag off on people here for their opinion on this. Jennifers opinion is valid, it will insure some few extra people. But not all, and probably not well enough that they will be able to afford decent medical care any more than they get now at public clinics or emergency rooms. It may even be worse for them, because those things may become less available and they may be held accountable for those bills now.
I mean, if you are insured but have a $100+ co pay and $5000 deductible, what good is it really? I don’t see anything in the bill that sets the terms of insurance except free market fairies and an unenforced 85% rule that will easily be worked around.
If you had cancer, ok now you can get insurance, but at what price and at what terms, and can you afford a doctor and treatments? Thats what I want to see. The closest thing to this was a provision that companies couldn’t set premiums more than 3X higher for a pre-existing condition, and that was months ago. I don’t even know if that is still in there.
I want this to work. I’m not holding out for perfect, I am just holding out for “not making things worse” and/or “making things not suck”. I’m not trolling, I would just rather suffer listening to the idiots crow about “defeating” health care than achieve a non-victory.
I accept I could be and hope that I am wrong about how this will play out… but I am usually pretty solid on this.
I believe we could have got a better bill if the president would have gone out to the public constantly and beat the living fuck out of the obstructionists, calling each one of them out by name and the lies they told. He did it a few times which gave me some hope, but he constantly gave ground instead of trying to take ground. He has the power to set the narrative and shift the window more than any other person on the “progressive” side of things, and he didn’t.
Many people believe that this was Rahm’s strategy, that he is by nature a “bottom” when it comes to political calculation. That is why he is largely reviled by progressives. To put it into the terms of the debate, he learned a long time ago how to suppress his gag reflex, and enjoys it enough that he thinks the rest of us should also learn how to.
It’s Not Over Until It’s Over
Is this the same nutsack who’s been telling us Obammycare is DEAD DEAD DEAD for the last year?
You’re losing your grip, Troofie!
(LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL)
The 6 train express platform.
Right. The, um, 6 Express…*snort*
OK, midnight. That’s when I feel safest in Harlem.
Troofie, didn’t you say you dropped your health insurance?
the Upper East Side, also known as the Great Republican Reservation of the Five Boroughs.
Then what’s Staten Island?
Whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiicrack!
To some extent. You and B^4 may occasionally have to have a sausagefest without me.
That was a lib spoofing me, no way I’d go anywhere NEAR the South Bronx.
How ’bout the South Ferry Station on the 1 train line? Hmmmm?
Then what’s Staten Island?
A piece of New Jersey that made it over the wall.
How ’bout the South Ferry Station on the 1 train line?
You sure you want that big an audience when I humiliate you?
I volunteer to bring the baseball bats and the aliases to the epic actor-doofus throwdown.
Then what’s Staten Island?
We try to forget it’s part of the city.
You and B^4 may occasionally have to have a sausagefest without me.
Pshaw! Not in that part of Brooklyn. Maybe the Ridge, or Bensonhurst.
At least, that is what I see in it Jennifer. I’m not trying to call you out or anything, I’m just not seeing the outcome that you see. A first step is great, I just think this might be a step backwards on the path, one that we will end up having to fight just to get back to where we were.
If it is any consolation, I do think it will pass. I hope your optimism for how it will work out is well founded.
Staten Island isn’t real. That’s just some garbage scow floating in the bay that they send tourists to.
epic actor-doofus throwdown
I’ll be throwing down. He’ll be throwing up.
troofie, if you wear your white sheets actor will be able to find you easier in the crowd. Make sure you bring them with you.
Troofie:
“Obamacare is going to FAIL FAIL FAIL! And it’s going to be overturned by the Supreme Court!”
Buh?
Anyone who knows anything at all about HCR knows that it wouldn’t have gotten this far withour the likes of Kucinich and Hamsher.
That’s an awfully sweeping and unsupported statement there.
don’t pretend that failing to applaud loudly enough is prima facie evidence of personal failing.
This has pretty much already been said, but:
Please point to who, in this specific comment thread, is telling you to clap loudly. Or, telling you to clap at all.
Dan, the union health insurance plans would rank among the “cadillac plans” that would have to be taxed under some scenarios to pay for healthcare reform. That’s why it might increase the tax burden on union workers.
I’ve heard about that. I assume that must be a reference to Section 9001, “Excise Tax on High-Cost Employer-Sponsored Health Coverage,” yes? As I read that, it’s a tax of 40% of the premium in excess of a dollar threshold, to be paid by the insurer or plan administrator. I guess the theory is that the insurers will pass on the tax to the employees.
Interestingly, I found one analysis that suggests that non-union workers will actually bear a larger share of the tax than union workers, at least at first; and the difference is more pronounced under a recent proposed amendment to that section. I also understand that the thresholds are significantly higher than the average costs of both individual and family “Cadillac plans” today.
OK. So that’s one potential downside of the bill. I’m not convinced it’s a huge issue, and if the theoretical upsides — that it will help defray the cost of HCR and that it will help drive down medical costs — hold true, I don’t see it as a deal-breaker.
What else?
I mean, if you are insured but have a $100+ co pay and $5000 deductible, what good is it really? I don’t see anything in the bill that sets the terms of insurance except free market fairies and an unenforced 85% rule that will easily be worked around.
What’s your basis for that last part?
Best possible outcome.
Dan,
I see the Cadillac Tax as not unlike the “tax” major league baseball imposes on teams who overstep the salary cap. There will still be some for whom crossing that line is worth it, like the Yankees, and they are taxed accordingly to share the wealth with smaller teams.
What ends up happening, it seems, is average free agency costs have gone down a little, once you factor out the A-Rods of the league. There are more free agent contracts, but the teams receiving the money are giving more contracts for less money, than free agents had received before the cap.
So it’s sort of a win-win, in the long run. It will keep costs down, and eventually the threshold will rise with inflation (if it’s indexed, which I assume it is) thus removing plans from the tax.
Best possible outcome
Not likely. But it might be funny.
Dan,
With respect to the ER claim, here’s the best I could comeup with: talking points from Peggy Noonan
So what she’s saying is, people who rely on ERs for care will actually get less care because for some reason hospitals who currently don’t bill a patient for services they provide will have to bill patients for services they provide.
Um, huh?
FactCheck.org on Cadillac plans
Heh indeedy for sheedy, hittin the fan man, says Da Cool Coach! Wuzza-wuzzup, loony libs? Looks like Terrific Troofy is gonna unleash a SPREAD all over Actor like you wouldn’t ever be believin! Badoodle-boo-yeah! You best understand, loony libs, that the bodacious beatdown of SPREAD unleashed by Troofy will mirror ConservoVictory 2010, with Super Sarah, the Power Palin, leading the way! Got that, jacks?
Ding dong dilly! Da Cool Coach, owning you Sadly Numbnuts once again! Urban out.
Peggy Noonan, huh? Well, maybe DocAmazing can actually cite something in the bill that’s going to impair urban ERs.
Dan Someone–
Busy with patients, so I can’t find the link, but the Kaiser Family Foundation has a good analysis of the bill, and lays out in summary the proposed cuts to Disproportionate Share Hospital funds–that’s the Medicare funding that pays for medically indigent adults. Lose that, lose the urban ERs that care for most of them. Lose a lot of rural ERs. (In fairness, there is a formula for restoring some of the funds–after seeral years.)
Anothe poison pill: the bill keeps states from putting together their own single-payer schemes for several years.
Again, a truly ass-sucking bill. A genuine piece of shit. If it’s the best we can get, pass the fucker, but don’t slag the left for not embracing the piece o’ shit–blame the centrists for shittifying it.
And actor–please: to knock some sense into me, you’d have to have some to start with. “Limousine lieral”? Por favor…
Looks like Terrific Troofy is gonna unleash a SPREAD all over Actor like you wouldn’t ever be believin! Badoodle-boo-yeah!
If by “spread” you mean “spurting blood from his nose,” then yea. I agree.
Some of us think they just couldn’t get their shit together, but are basically well-meaning; some of us think they’re doing what they can in a dysfunctional environment, and some of us think that they’re corporate shills who are simply engaging in kabuki (but without, like, all the pretty stuff).
Big tent, indeed!
Kaiser Family Foundation, as in Kaiser Permanente, I presume.
These folks in other words
Doc, I presume this is the study you mentioned?
http://kff.org/uninsured/upload/7809.pdf
That was a lib spoofing me, no way I’d go anywhere NEAR the South Bronx.
How ’bout the South Ferry Station on the 1 train line? Hmmmm?
This confirms my suspicions… Tr00fie and his fellow Mall Ninjas are going to have a circle jerk near Ground Zero, all the while talking about how they’d have single-handedly stopped all four of the planes from being hijacked with their mad skillz.
but don’t slag the left for not embracing the piece o’ shit–blame the centrists for shittifying it.
And actor–please: to knock some sense into me, you’d have to have some to start with.
This is a prety good example of self-pwnage. So I’ll claim the win now. Thanks!
Tr00fie and his fellow Mall Ninjas are going to have a circle jerk near Ground Zero
He’s afraid if he goes any further north, he’ll catch teh ghey.
Actually, for self-pwnage, no one will ever top your “close the clinics to give care to the poor” line above.
And yes, right KFF, but no, wrong study. Search for “disproportionate share cuts” or something similar.
Got to go, patients waiting.
Kaiser Family Foundation, as in Kaiser Permanente, I presume.
In his defense, the Kaiser Family Foundation has been completely independent from the corporation for a couple of decades, and it’s widely respected in the healthcare field for providing excellent analysis.
However, I’ve probably not read the report he’s referring to, so I can’t vouch for his actual argument.
Doc, are you suggesting that hundreds of doctors should be like you and not give a damn about legislation in Washington that could affect their jobs?
Wow, how….cold and calculating you are!
Kaiser Family Foundation, as in Kaiser Permanente, I presume.
Nope. KFF is a completely separate organization from KP. KP, btw, is where I get my health care. I have quite a bit of experience receiving health care and I think they do a pretty damn good job. Better, even, than Geisinger in Pennsylvania (I was with them for almost 20 years) which was highlighted in one of the “better outcomes for less $ studies.
Search for “disproportionate share cuts” or something similar.
Um. No?
KP was cited by Obama during the campaign as one of the good guys. It was also cited in SiCKO by Moore as one of the more reputable insurance companies.
No, actor, I’m suggesting that doctors not seeing patients doens’t do patients a bit of good. If you’re at loose ends, go to town. The health care that is a human right has to be provided by, y’know, people who show up for work.
For the Yankees who’ve yet to RTFM, even after all this angst & horsetrading – the hot potato itself.
Strangely, it resembles neither a shit sandwich nor a sausage.
No, actor, I’m suggesting that doctors not seeing patients doens’t do patients a bit of good.
Oh, not a bit of good? Not even to, say, help those patients get a little better funding? So a doctor should just shut up and do as he’s told? He shouldn’t give a damn? Or rather, he should shrug the burden off onto people who don’t care for his patients as much as he does?
Are you suggesting that somehow one day of missing work is slacking off for doctors who spend their work weeks seeing hundreds of patients? That there are no greater issues at stake, issues that can go directly to the heart of the problem, preventative care? Or even *gasp* assistance to help them afford the care that is now being done for free?
My. That’s rather…judgmental of you.
Well, I’ll be! I’m sure when I mention this to the doctors going to DC next Monday, they’ll all gasp and realize just how selfish they’re being, fighting for their patients…and leave it up to the lobbyists for the insurance companies…and Dennis Kucinich, of course…to advocate for better healthcare for their patients.
They’ll just go back and stick to their knitting. That ought to show the Congress they mean business!
If anyone in the audience has any experience caring for small children, would you please enlighten actor212 as to why it’s a bad idea to close a pediatrics clinic mid-week when outstanding appointments are not covered by another physician? For that matter, would you please let him in on why you even bother bringing your child to a doctor at all, and why you would need that doctor’s office to remain open?
DocAmazing: I’ve looked at the DSH cuts language in the Senate bill — couldn’t find the KFF report you were referring to. According to the bill, a state’s DSH allotment from Medicaid will be cut (after FY 2012) by 50% (25% for low DSH states) once its rate of uninsured drops by 45%, with further decreases as the uninsured rate continues to drop. There is an upper limit to the decrease — a state can’t ever lose more than 65% of its (FY 2012) DSH allotment.
So yes, DSH allotments will be cut as the proportion of uninsured people declines. Which sort of makes some sense, as the purpose of DSH funding, as I understand it, is to compensate hospitals that provide otherwise-uncompensated service to low-income people. I assume the theory is that as more of those people become insured, hospitals are comensated for serving them and the need for DSH funding decreases.
Can you explain the line you’ve drawn from that provision to closing down ERs?
You also say: “the bill keeps states from putting together their own single-payer schemes for several years.” What part of the bill is that in?
Finally: “Again, a truly ass-sucking bill. A genuine piece of shit. If it’s the best we can get, pass the fucker, but don’t slag the left for not embracing the piece o’ shit–blame the centrists for shittifying it.” So far, you’ve got two, maybe three specific things in the bill that you dislike. It also doesn’t contain single-payer or even a strong public option (though I am curious about the implications of the Community Health Insurance Option that the bill calls for in Section 1323), and I think that makes it a worse bill than I would like to see.
But why is it “truly ass-sucking”? I’m not slagging anybody for complaining about it, but seriously, what is so earth-shakingly awful about it?
A fifty-per-cent cut to DiSH funds befroe any assessment is even made of what the needs are, when we already know that ERs and poverty hospitals are underfunded? Tha’s like telling someone to jump on out of the plane–we’ll get you a parachute on the way down. ERs and poverty hopitals are already hanging on by their fingernails–and we get further cuts?
So we’ve got compulsory purchasing of private insurance with loose controls over the insurers, more cuts to hospitals than cannot afford them, the Cadillac Health Plan tax to punish union members, restricton of states’ ability to set up their own single-payer schemes (sorry, haven’t time to look it up right now; Lawyers Guns & Money had a bit on it today, I’m told), no public option, no single-payer, and loose oversight of private insurers.
Gee, what’s not to love?
If you ram this thing down our throats, you’ll regret it.
ConservoVictory 2010, with Super Sarah, the Power Palin, leading the way!
So Conservatives are going to take back the country by resigning from office en masse? BRILLIANT!
Honestly, I can’t see a huge difference between compulsory purchase of private insurance (with subsidies for those who can’t afford it) and raising everyone’s taxes to pay for a single-payer plan. Either way, people who aren’t paying for medical coverage now (either because they can’t afford it or because no one will cover them) would have to start paying in, and you can’t have anything approaching universal coverage without doing it in one of those two ways. As far as “loose controls over the insurers” goes, what we have no is NO controls over the insurers, so that’s a plus any way you look at it compared to where we are now. And as Dan’s described the “cuts to hospitals” as it’s written in the bill, it doesn’t really sound like an end-times scenario to me. Not to mention that that type of thing can be tinkered with pretty easily if it develops that it becomes a big problem. I have to say I’m also not all that torn up over the idea of generous health benefits being taxed – in our system, health benefits are very much a part of employee compensation and most people who are buying their own insurance get no break at all on the cost – they’re taxed on every dollar they spend for coverage. I don’t see why someone should get preferential tax treatment just because they’re fortunate enough to work for a company that provides generous health coverage.
Most people who have “generous health coverage” are union members, because they were able to negotiate for benefits rather than wages, thus saving their mployers money Way Back When. They’re the one who are going to take it in the short with this–not so much well-heeled corporate types.
Compulsory purchase of private insurance that pays for squat and has high deductibles is far inferior to single-payer.
By the time the tinkering to fix the cuts to hospitals occurs, the hospitals have closed. This is not a new scenario; it has happened in Claiornia in very recent times, in Los Angeles. Many people are suffering as a result.
Gee, what’s not to love?
Er, the status quo?
Yeah. Here’s an idea. Let’s get a Democratic President elected, but when his agenda ends up getting chopped up and watered down in congress, what we need to do is just surrender and do nothing.
Why didn’t I think of that?
mikey
Look, DocAmazing, nobody here gives a fart in a high wind about the particulars of this corporate giveaway. These morally bankrupt fuckwads just want to jump up and down and shriek “WE WIN!!!1!one!eleventy!!!” when this craptastic bill passes.
Asking these sub-moronic partisan demotard to care is like asking an aardvark to take dictation. It’s just not happening. Nothing touches any of these middle-class meritoid “I got mine” pwoggie-bloggie asshats. NOTHING.
With a single-payer plan you’d have a clearer idea of what your coverage would be without shopping, and you could top it off if need be with some extended health benefits.
Doc, the funds don’t get cut until the rate of uninsured in the state has declined by 45%. I don’t know the background, but it seems at least possible to me that somebody actually did an assessment of how DSH funds are used/when they are needed. Maybe not, but I don’t think either of us knows either way. And I understand that hospitals that serve a lot of low-income patients are already barely hanging on. Whether this bill will make things worse or not remains to be seen; but I think you would agree that it’s definitely going to get worse if we do nothing.
Jennifer has responded on some of the other points, and I have to run, but regarding this:
Gee, what’s not to love?
Who in this thread has said they love the bill? I’m pretty sure everybody has acknowledged that it’s not the best bill we could have hoped for, and it might not even be a particularly good bill. But I asked a very different question: What is so earth-shakingly (or ass-suckingly) horrible about the bill?
Oh hey, hi mikey. Nice to see you again.
“Doc, are you suggesting that hundreds of doctors should be like you and not give a damn about legislation in Washington that could affect their jobs?
Wow, how….cold and calculating you are!”
Is this Actor212 or Rushbo? Enough already. STFU.
He likes it! Hey mikey!
Well, bsides being punitive to union members, putting threatened hosptials at risk, diverting rivers of public money toward insurance companies with so-so oversight, leaving a whole bunch of people out in the cold–other than that, it’s a great bill.
You are kidding, right? Any one of those features would qualify the bill as fecal. In combination…
Hey Dan. I followed Brad over, thought I’d see what the remaining sadlys thought of passing the bill. Pretty much as I expected, lots of insistence that anything short of single payer, a unicorn and a pony cannot be allowed to be foisted upon us.
Y’know, at least this particular argument has shown you all-or-nothing lefties the solution to your problem. All you have to do is figure out how to get the congressional dems to enforce rigid party discipline, like the repubs do, and you can begin to move more liberal legislation. It’s your blue dog conservadem assholes deciding that they like having veto power that’s at the root of the problem.
Sure, Jane Hamsher’s temporary (hopefully) insanity and dennis kucinich’s utter uselessness in legislative matters are the problem in the current political environment, but if you had a party that was disciplined in advancing the agenda OF THEIR OWN PARTY, any purity-fire you take from the left is unimportant….
mikey
would you please enlighten actor212 as to why it’s a bad idea to close a pediatrics clinic mid-week when outstanding appointments are not covered by another physician?
Who said that was happening? That’s why they make appointments, moron.
I’m so amazed to hear that you are so dedicated to your job that you never take vacation and never take sick, hell, you never leave your office, lest any sick child miss seeing his personal doctor!
Purity troll…
Substance – I agree and would greatly prefer single-payer. But that aside, the point remains that everyone’s gonna have to pay someone one way or another.
Of course, the question yet to be asked is why you can’t find the time to arrange your schedule and clear your appointments to go to a protest that was MONTHS in the making?
But I already know the answer to that one…you just don’t give a crap.
I’d just like to point out, far after the fact, how fucking funny it is that Toofie wants to fight Actor212 out behind the athletic fields after school.
Me too! Internet tough guys are the funniest.
Is this Actor212 or Rushbo?
Hey, I’m not the one telling my fellow drones to work harder. THAT would be the Rush position.
mikey – you’d probably like my “no health reform, no dolla” approach I wrote about. I’ve pretty much been telling every Dem organization that calls looking for money that the wallet won’t be open again until they pass health care. What I haven’t told them is that even then, it won’t be open for the likes of the DCCC, DSCC, etc, because I don’t want one thin dime of my money going to help assholes like Bart Stupak win re-election.
Gosh, doc. Don’t you see how terribly terribly regretful and sad the sadlyno gang is over foisting this turd on the american public? Why, they’re so sad and regretful and sad that they’re going to do exactly jack/shit about it. That’s how truly and deeply regretful and sad they are.
Truly.
Why, they’re so sad and regretful and sad that they’re going to do exactly jack/shit about it.
Hey, it’s the Patron Saint of DoNothing! How are you, Alan? Still voting for Nader in 2008?
Pretty much as I expected, lots of insistence that anything short of single payer, a unicorn and a pony cannot be allowed to be foisted upon us.
Huh. Are you reading the same thread I am? Because I see a bunch of people saying “Hold your nose and see it through,” even DocAmazing, who, I must say, is getting piled upon inappropriately IMO. Even he says pass it, just don’t have any illusions that it’ll bring magical unicorns that shit ice cream cones with it.
That seems pretty hard to argue with. I’d love to see single payer and the eventual dismantling of the for-profit health insurance industry. Ain’t gonna happen. Pretty much everybody recognizes it. So please show me (outside the trolls) who is demanding perfection-or-nothing?
Actor–
I know you don’t read real well, but as you noticed above–I can’t get anyone to cover for me. Not that it matters. One demonstration that I’m gonna miss, and you’re soiling yourself. I think we’ve domonstrated pretty conclusively that you’re not the brightest bulb on the chandelier. Thank you for a stimulating demonstration of centrism in the service of…well, lulz for the crowd here, I guess.
DocAmazing, who, I must say, is getting piled upon inappropriately
He took the first shots.
One demonstration that I’m gonna miss, and you’re soiling yourself.
No, that’s not bothering me, Doc.
It’s that you feel you have the right to judge people who can clear their calendars months in advance for something this important, and claim that somehow, we’re not activists.
Somehow, those people are slacking off, even tho no one is getting hurt for making appointments on different days and they’re covering your slacker ass.
But we’re not the activists, noooooooooooooooooooo!
But then, we both know the real answer here, don’t we…”Doc”?
No, you’re not–not compared to the activists that you’re taking the time to slag here. “Fuck the purists”? No, fuck anyone who hasn’t put in the time and effort the purists have. Fuck anyone who is criticizing those to the left of them when they haven’t carried the freight that those leftists have. When you’ve been up to your state capitol with a delegation of docs, and with a delegation from organized labor; when you’v epulled the phone-bank hours; when you’ve done the door-to-door bit; when you’ve put in the work that people like Hamsher and Kucinich and all the others you gleefully talk shit about–when you’ve cdone that, you’ll hae earned the right to criticize those to your left. But hey, a loely spring day in the nation’s capital, gathering with like-minded people and milling around, that’s real activism.
You’re a barnacle on the hull of health-car reform.
But then, we both know the real answer here, don’t we…”Doc”?
Actor, slow down there, cowboy. DocAmazing has been around for a while, he’s not some Johnny-come-lately troll. You guys both need to go to a neutral corner and take a fucking breath.
So please show me (outside the trolls) who is demanding perfection-or-nothing?
Umm, the oft mentioned (temporarily) insane Jane Hamsher and (always) useless Dennis Kucinich. Unlike US, these are people who have some actual power over the process and are evangelizing for the status quo. Hell, even the ridiculously pompous and appropriately named Bart Stupak will likely end up a yes vote.
As Brad says, all we can do is call our reps and ask them nicely to DO SOMETHING for once. The people with the power to make a difference, who choose not to because they have a fantasy of an America with a working political system, a population that isn’t effectively insane and functionally illiterate and a media that tells the truth are criminals, and should not be defended for their stand on “principle”.
There are lessons to be learned from all this. But if you don’t like Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good”, then how about “Don’t let your fantasies that you live in Denmark be the enemy of working within the constraints of (American) reality”…
mikey
But hey, a loely spring day in the nation’s capital, gathering with like-minded people and milling around, that’s real activism.
Did I mention the appointments with all 535 Congresscritters?
Perhaps I forgot to mention that.
Sorry you can’t take time out of your obviously busy schedule….you know, this rally was scheduled months ago, I’m sure little Johnny’s MMR shot could have waited a day or two…but hey, them’s the breaks.
At least we won’t judge you.
Altho I will.
No, fuck anyone who hasn’t put in the time and effort the purists have.
Yes, spending five minutes commenting here every hour is truly “effort”….*snort*
JESUS do I have to GNAW MY ARM OFF before we get a thread where people I like aren’t attacking each other?
DocAmazing has been around for a while, he’s not some Johnny-come-lately troll.
I know that. Which is why I find it kind of silly for him to behave like he hasn’t.
Jennifer has always been upfront about her involvement in causes and her activism. If he can’t keep up, he ought to shut up.
JESUS do I have to GNAW MY ARM OFF before we get a thread where people I like aren’t attacking each other?
Ironically, I stepped in to try to get Doc and Jennifer to calm the rhetoric down.
By my reckoning, that’s fifty-five minutes every hour with patients. Make up your mind–am I slacking off from work because I’m posting, or slacking off from posting-as-activism because I’m seeing patients?
By the way, you get to go to your favorite pediatric clinic and ask the moms there about how disposable a clinic day is. I know that you’re la leisured sort, but most of them, y’know, work and count on having these appointments.
But hey, enjoy the cherry blossoms. Try the coffee at Nancy Pelosi’s office–I hear it’s excellent.
By my reckoning, that’s fifty-five minutes every hour with patients.
No, that’s fifty five minutes with patients, paperwork, assistants, set up, cleaning, and the occasional phone call. More like thirty minutes with patients.
And this is five minutes you could spend on the phone with a congresscritter.
See? Purity trolling works both ways, Doc!
We can haz new thread plz? Thiz wun is stinky.
Kthxbye.
I know that you’re la leisured sort, but most of them, y’know, work and count on having these appointments.
Yea, funny things about appointments, and clinics:
They’re usually made in advance when there’s a doctor sure to be there and NOT made when a doc is NOT there.
Which means you could have made this rally, and talked to some of the California contingent. Maybe even recount some of your stories.
But you know, too busy. We get it.
Called before the workday started, as I mentioned above. Jackie Speier & Nancy Pelosi already heard from me; delivered petitions to Dianne Feinstein’s office in person last week. Not much more to do on that front.
I have done it all (except go up to Capitol Hill with my fellow doctors – I am but a lowly secretary. Sue me for not grabbing a delegation of typists to storm the Hill.)
And yes, I have a right to talk shit about Hamsher. She can be awesome, but this time she was a stupid, grandstanding jackass that did not help this process one bit.
So there.
Pass the bill and everyone shut the fuck up.
But you’re slacking off now. Indeed, your focus is not on your patients, and when you leave to see one, you’re already thinking about getting back on here to chat some more.
What happens when you make a mistake, Doc?
Yea, funny things about appointments, and clinics:
They’re usually made in advance when there’s a doctor sure to be there and NOT made when a doc is NOT there.
Yea, funny thing about kids–they get sick a great deal without clearing their schedules–especially in winter and early spring. It’s RSV season now (you could look it up), which means we’ve got bunches of kids developing coughs and wheezes overnight.
But really, do I need to explain the nature of a clinic to you? You really aren’t as dense as all that, are you?
See, there’s my mistake. Failure to close tags.
But you’re quite right: continuing to engage you is a waste of both my and my patients’ time. You gave up any pretense of having a point to make a long time ago.
Yea, funny thing about kids–they get sick a great deal without clearing their schedules–especially in winter and early spring.
Yea, funny thing about emergencies.
There’s these rooms in hospitals, see…
I’m happy to know you’re on call 24/7/52/365, Doc.
But you’re doing your patients a disservice.
You gave up any pretense of having a point to make a long time ago.
You made my point for me hours ago. I was just enjoying watching you squirm.
I think you summed it up nicely with the “close the office to give care” bit.
Spoken like a true dilettante.
BTW: you might want to find out what an “emergency” is, from a medical point of view.
In other news, goat-blower-at-large Kaus announces that he’s angling for Barbara Boxer’s Senate seat. Quadrupeds in the D.C. area rejoice at the news, while teabaggers in California wonder if this means that there will be more equine-like creatures available to stuff things down their throats!!11!
Robert Downey Jr’s alter-ego from the ’96 Democratic convention in San Diego, aka “GoatBoy” rumored to be exploring his own line of specialized quadrupedal “snorkeling” accessories.
I’m just proud that my prowess as a peacemaker persists.
Apart from your alliterative abilities.
Oh, geez, actor, you mean it’s my fault this whole thing got started?
Shit. First it was the foreskin holocaust. Then the humorless dildos. Now this.
Again I have to thank our hosts for not banning my divisive ass.
Dildos with foreskins would be HILARIOUS.
But not kosher.
tigris – Not from personal knowledge, but you just know that someone is already making them. It’s a given.
but you just know that someone is already making them.
*throws away business plan*
And…uh…yeah. Also.
(I reserve the right to omit mention of this site from my “last two weeks on google” post.)
Speaking solely for myself, I would be happy if the bill died, because as a poor, working, non-insured person, the premiums alone are gonna break me, because I fall into that little spot known as ‘make too much for decent subsidies, but not enough when done paying my RL expenses to afford this shitty Starbridge-Lite insurance that I’m gonna qualify for.’
Quite literally, the only difference for me (and I’m presuming that I’m not the only person in America in the same spot) is that I’ll have less flexibility in a medical emergency. That’s not a win; that’s not even a tie. Pretending it’s so is folly.
Yes, this bill benefits people with preexisting conditions who’ve been denied before because of them. Well, the ones who can afford it, anyways. And theoretically, we’ve got 5 years to fix it before it comes in. I have no faith in this Congress or the next one to do that, though, so I have nothing to look forward to with this bill. Of course, by pointing this out, I’ll be accused of wanting ponies and rainbows and running around killing poor sick people with glee. Or being a closet Republican. Or something.
Jesus, Nobody Special, don’t let actor hear you–you’ll be here all week.
I take it back. If the new health care system can help this clown get a better toupee, we are all better off:
Doc, personally, I don’t give a fuck who hears me. It’s better than the hearing I got when the Senate put this thing together.
Ummmm, PENIS?
Jeebus fooken keerist. Every Brad thread ends up with fighting, anger, disagreement and depression. Anybody else notice that? Also, PENIS?
They’re manufactured here. Shifts round the clock and they still can’t keep up with the demand.
Good lord, Snorghagen.
We need to call our congresscritters now to make sure they pass some CO2 caps on the dildos-with-foreskins industry!!
Orly Taitz news. Check out the awesome Manson troll in comments.
Annnnd, anyone saying (not here, mind you) that people
don’t carearen’t extremely passionate about health care in this country aren’t paying attention. For that reason, passing this bill, IMO, would allow that passion to ramp up and bring new expectations. That’s pressure. And if the Dems don’t get clobbered for doing so, maybe (yes, maybe) they will grow some collective nads and improve the damn thing.Every Brad thread ends up with fighting, anger, disagreement and depression.
Yeah, I thought “eating our own” would be so much hotter.
Also, PENIS?
Hey, maybe this is what the penis-burning lady had in mind.
We need to call our congresscritters now to make sure they pass some CO2 caps on the dildos-with-foreskins industry!!
It’s an environmental dildos-with-foreskins holocaust!
It’s an environmental dildos-with-foreskins holocaust!
We need to nip this in the bud!
Every Brad thread ends up with fighting, anger, disagreement and depression.
Well, to be fair, they all start with depression.
In other words, brisly.
One must note that those dildos, lacking in body fluids as they are, must therefore be humourless.
One must note that those dildos, lacking in body fluids as they are, must therefore be humourless.
OUCH.
Orly Taitz news. Check out the awesome Manson troll in comments.
Screw peak wingnut, what about peak KraZee?
But FDL will get mad at me!
Actually, I’m going to send a sure “no” vote an e-mail that lets him know his chances for promotion (Kirk, IL-10 and Senate candidate) are better if he votes for HCR, but he won’t do it, because he’s a well-disguised goose stepping Republican.
Together Forever.
http://www.johnmccain.com/sarah/
I wonder what she extracted from him so she wouldn’t campaign for Hayworth?
“Health care, though, can be fixed in the long term. In fact it will have to be fixed — otherwise we’ll just go broke.”
Uh, when has that ever stopped us? Did the realization that it was a fatal error prevent Johnson from escalating in Vietnam? Sadly, no.
Does the proof of Climate change necessary lead to environmental reform? Sadly, no.
Bad Education, endemic poverty, stupid wars, these are things we’ve never fixed. Its time to realize hat you gotta have a ball sack to fix things. We need to Blago real reform through or all we’ll get is ‘remember how great my shitty health care bill was? vote empty suit for president!
tigris said
You’ve been demussed?
I decided it made my ass look big.
I decided it made my ass look big.
I know the feeling.
vote empty suit for president!
Vonnegut was so far out front with this one
Vonnegut was so far out front with this one
Heh.
But in sorta related matters I’d vote for Wilbur Daffodil-11 Swain in a heartbeat.
tigris said,
March 16, 2010 at 2:47
I decided it made my ass look big.
I call bullshit. it’s obvious that the real reason is you ‘fraidies.
Speaking solely for myself, I would be happy if the bill died, because as a poor, working, non-insured person, the premiums alone are gonna break me, because I fall into that little spot known as ‘make too much for decent subsidies, but not enough when done paying my RL expenses to afford this shitty Starbridge-Lite insurance that I’m gonna qualify for.’
I’m curious how you’ve figured all that out. Do you have all the numbers for what the premiums and subsidies are going to be? I know the income levels are in the bill, but where do the other numbers come from?
I call bullshit. it’s obvious that the real reason is you ‘fraidies.
In retrospect, it probably was a mistake to use my TOTALLY FOR REALS NAME.
So what exactly does the average person – who belongs to no special interest group – actually get out of this bill?
Besides higher taxes, I mean.
This is exactly what is going to happen, re: Congress. As for keeping the pressure on, I’ll do my best, but I won’t harbor any delusions about the willingness of the Very Serious People to help in that endeavor.
Dan:
Numbers can be plugged in at the Kaiser Family’s website. Basically, I’m looking at a second car payment for a Silver plan.
Day late and dollar short.
The KFF thing DocAmazing was talking about.
I guess my problem is I don’t think we’re looking at the correct opposites. The opposite of this bill isn’t NO healthcare reform, it’s GOOD healthcare reform. As it is, we’ll end up with bad “reform,” which will kibosh any chance of another run at the prize.
What I see happening is they barely pass this steaming heap of loose sheep droppings, it’s already crippled, the repugs do everything in their power to weaken it after the fact, and a year later, pronounce it a total failure — which it will be.
So at that point healthcare reform is doubly dead — they can say, “we tried it and it didn’t work,” not just “it won’t work if we try it.”
I’m not saying that a little bill is worse than no bill, at least in the immediate future. I’m saying a little bill won’t ultimately work, and will result in a permanent moratorium on healthcare efforts in the long term future. They did it with all sorts of other civic concepts already: socialism is seen as evil by 90% of Americans; Muslims are unworthy of life; evolution is only a theory; and global warming is a hoax.
So I think all we’re doing is teeing ourselves up to lose meaningful, universal healthcare forever.
I think it’s safe to come out of the bunker now. Holy shit guys. I looked from the pigs to the humans and the humans to the pigs, etc.
Policy has been done to death, but here’s what I think: At this point, it’s important for the Democrats to do something vaguely resembling moving forward. I know how pathetic that sounds, but think about it: billions and billions of dollars have been poured into killing not just this bill, but the very idea of health care reform. How often does the American conservative movement fight so viciously to destroy something, and then end up losing? Because whatever you want to say about health care being a hidden barb for the left, its passage will be an unequivocal loss for the right.
And I’m not just saying that as “Ha ha, the right lost”. If people see that the Democrats can actually accomplish something, it will change their perception of them. The majority of Americans aren’t wonks like us. They see “health care reform” as a single object, within the realm of what has been proposed, with the options of pass or fail. Furthermore, the public associates the Democrats with liberals, so a “pass” becomes “liberals win, conservatives lose” in the public’s mind.
But will it be a Trojan horse (VPR) for the Dems? Look, ending recission and community rating will be very popular. You’d have to be Ebenezer fucking Scrooge to not like those. Will costs continue to go up? They would anyway, and probably tp a higher degree. If you’re going to say, “Well, if costs go up, that means that the Republicans can blame it on health care reform, so it’s safer not to pass anything,” then congratulations, you’ve just backed yourself into a dead-end where any reform is nigh-impossible.
This bill is not good. But it is something. It has good elements amid the shit. And sometimes, you just have to stop being paralyzed with ideas of what might happen, and just take a step forward and goddamn DO something before you can do anything else. I agree with the camp that says winners are rewarded in politics, somewhat independent of policy, and liberals have to win the game before they can start making the rules.
No.
This bill is not good. But it is something. It has good elements amid the shit.
This bill has the potential to do great mischief to existing programs. Passing it is probably necessary, but, ONCE AGAIN, not something to be celebrated. Once passed, this bill must be followed up by legislation to correct its worst flaws, and quickly; that’s going to need to be a legislative priority. Some legislator somewhere who hasn’t made a name for him/herself can quickly become the go-to person on HCR, if that person wants the role. It is crucial, however, that the destructive elements of this legislation not be allowed to blossom into the venomous flowers that they will become if not nipped in the bud.
Pass the bill, but do not think that the job ends there. The work has just begun.
I keep seeing these sweeping claims that the bill is a shit sandwich, that the bill is worse than ineffective, etc. But aside from pointing out a couple of areas of potential distress and a couple of big-ticket items that are not included, nobody can seem to tell me why this bill overall is such a steaming pile of crap. People like DocAmazing are focused only on their perceived negatives, and don’t seem to consider the positives.
For the record, I agree that it is not a perfect bill. I agree that it has flaws, and that it doesn’t go far enough in reforming the health care and health insurance industries. But from my own reading of portions of the bill and my own review of the Kaiser summary comparison, the Democrats’ section-by-section analysis, and the Republican analysis, I see a lot of things in the bill that strike me as encouraging steps forward, including: removal of pre-existing condition exclusions and rescission; subsidies and cost-sharing credits for lower-income families; the CO-OP program to help fund non-profit health insurance companies; the establishment of “basic essential coverage” requirements; expansion of Medicaid; fixing the Medicare donut hole; etc.
I concede that I am not a health care expert; I don’t work in a health-related industry; I may not fully comprehend how all of the components of the bill will work, or their potential positive and negative effects; and I am probably a lot better off in terms of my health insurance than a lot of people here, and definitely a lot better off than a lot of people in the country (though I have, like I suspect most people do, my own horror stories about pre-existing condition exclusions, at a time when we could ill afford the expense) — so my perspective may not be the same. But I don’t think it’s mindless cheerleading or naive to be in favor of passing this bill now.
And Spengler, I think you’re wrong. The opposite of his bill is no reform,no action; and doing nothing will not maintain the status quo, because the status quo is unstable. You say this is “bad” reform that will prevent good reform. I’ve already asked repeatedly about why this bill is, as a whole, such a stinker. On the “prevent good reform” point, consider this: As you say, the Republicans are going to continue to try to weaken it. Fair enough. They’re going to try that in Congress and I give it maybe six months until someone tries to make a constitutionality claim in court. But by the same token, I believe there are Democrats who will continue to try to strengthen it, there are people all over the place who recognize that they can’t let up on the pressure to improve. I also think (based on polls I’m hearing about) that the public will not look favorably on those who voted against it come November. (The fact that one of the GOP’s main talking points nowadays is a warning that passing HCR will make the Dems lose big suggests how fearful the Repubs really are about their chances.)
Pass the bill, but do not think that the job ends there.
Doc, I can guarantee that no one on this blog thinks the job ends here.
Dan, you’re not getting it. Cutting DiSH funding to hospitals that are dependent on it–even for the (hopefully) short period of time that will pass before insurance kicks in (on those lucky enough to be insured–unlike, for example, the undocumented, who use emergency departments at a disproportionate rate) will cause hospitals to tolose–not might, will. Set your watch by it.
That’s a very , very large negative, and it needs to be corrected immediately upon passage of this bill. You keep pointing to a shitpile and drawing attention to the diamonds that may be embedded therein. There may be a few diamonds, but it is still a shitpile. We are looking at a very severe problem if the DiSH funding problem is not immediately addressed. Not a potential problem; a guaranteed one.
I sigh audibly.
Look, I want healthcare for all Americans. End of plank. Healthcare for 100% of Americans.
What Washington has offered to do, because ultimately they’re all bought n’ paid for, Dems and Repugs, is a kind of apology for not doing what needs to be done. And that’s fine. I’m delighted if a few people survive medical emergencies because of new policies. Awesome. A few people will be saved, and a few others will get healthcare. Neat!
But there’s no point being naive. The insurance companies are going to go apeshit. They’re going to fight like barracuda on PCP, and they’re going to make everybody suffer for passing even the weakest legislation, the way an asshole suffers for passing a habañero milkshake.
Meanwhile the Repugs are going to act like it’s the fucking invasion of fucking Normandy, the Bay of Pigs, Iwo Jima, and the battle of Hastings, all at once.
What are the Dems going to do? Cringe and finger the brims of their greasy caps, ducking their heads in shame and begging forgiveness of their friends across the aisle while the corporations now dumping hundreds of millions into their opponents’ campaign coffers tan their asses with a five-ton cricket bat.
Sure, they’ll lose fewer seats than if they don’t pass this legislation. Just like we’ll lose fewer Americans if there is at least a modicum of healthcare improvement in this country. But in the end, this is like proudly announcing in 1861 that the colored African negro slave shall have weekends off, guaranteed, even if it means North and South shall be sundered.
It’s all been a waste of a perfectly good war.
Let the insurance companies rant and rave. They’re among the most hated people in America, so it’s not like they can do it in public. So they’ll do what they’ve been doing, which is pump unholy sums of money down the Republican Party’s throat, as well as those of 50 or so Democrats, who will continue to demonize anything the liberals do to try to help people, while masquerading as some sort of voice of reason.
So, I guess what I’m trying to say is that you won’t see any sudden new onslaught of resistance. They’re already firing at full capacity.
Doc, I appreciate your concern about the DSH funding, but I can’t help feeling like you’re so close to that particular issue that it is occupying a much larger portion of your field of view than it warrants in proportion to the entire bill.
To turn your own analogy back on you, you’re looking so closely at one turd that you can’t see past it to the diamonds (or even just cubic zirconias) that may be in the rest of the pile.
I agree with Spaghetti Lee. The insurance industry-funded Republican noise machine is pretty much at maximum volume and peak insanity right now. (See, e.g., Michelle Bachmann’s preemptive call on people to individually decide that the law is unconstitutional.) I don’t see what more they can do to step it up, and I think we’re already seeing outrage fatigue in the polls. The louder and shriller they get, the worse they’ll do in November, and — call me an idealist — the more likely it will be that the (shriveled) progressive wing of the Democrats will be able to push for improvements.
Forgive me, Dan, but that’s really easy for a non-poor, non-undocumented person to say. Kill hospitals and ERs that primarily serve the poor (and that’s exactly what we’re talking about here) and you’re going to severely impact–and even kill–those poor and undocumented people. That’s a reality. The DiSH cuts were put in the bill to appease deficit hawks who do not give a shit about such people. You do, and that’s why I find it rather surprising that you’re willing to overlook the crisis that the DiSH cuts will spark in favor of the few good things in this bill.
I really don’t know how to make it any more plain: in its current form, this bill will kill hospitals that serve the poor and undocumented, and lead to deaths as a result. That’s not hyperbole; call your local county hospital and ask the administrators there about it.
Doc, you have a lot of talk here about “killing” hospitals and people, but do you have any actual economic analysis of the effects of the cuts? With numbers and projections? I’ve looked around, and there’s a lot of talk from various participants — hospitals and hospital systems, mostly — but not a lot of hard data or projections. (Interestingly, most of the recent talk about DSH focuses on state governors and legislatures making big cuts to save state budgets. I don’t know the precise relationship between state and federal funding in the DSH context, but it seems to me that the hospitals you’re talking about are already warning about impending closures.)
Take a look at the policy brief linked here. It doesn’t have a ton of hard data, but it discusses the difference between the House and Senate bills’ approaches to DSH cuts, and suggests some ways to mitigate them. Again, I’m no expert, but it seems to me that these might be the sorts of things for people to start pushing their Senators and Representatives to be proposing as amendments the minute the President’s signature is dry.
I would hope so, because a “Hey, here’s how we might possibly make up for the cuts to poor folks” article is not very encouraging.
Jesus, Dan, aren’t you getting tired of trying to wave away the obvious here? THE BILL SUCKS SHIT. The DiSH cuts are a serious problem that will be borne by the poor and the undocumented. I know that you want to see the good stuff buried in the bill, but look: there’s a very severe problem right there on the surface. If you want to have endless papers on mitigating the impact of cuts that should never have been seriously proposed in the first place, enjoy yourself. I’m close enough to the material that I see the effects of the cuts that have already happened, and those cuts were far smaller than what’s in the bill.
The. Bill. Is. A. Piece. Of. Shit. All of the equivocation in the world does not change that. It relies heavily on cuts to those who can least afford them and who can least defend themselves. Wasting time on economic analysis of the extremely obvious is just another way of hiding the severe defects of the bill until it’s too late to do anything about it.
Once again, pass the disgusting thing–and it is a disgusting thing, unless you find severe cuts to health care to the very poor and undocumented to be desirable–and them push hard and immediately to repeal the cuts–not to mitigate them, to prevent them. I fail to see what is remotely unclear about that.
I love how you liberals in your little echo chamber are already crowing about how Obama and Congressional Liberals are going to ram this bill through. But don’t count your chickens until they hatch, liberals.
Don’t look now, dear. But they’re hatched.
Owned much?