OK, Lemme Try This Again

OK, since my last post has degenerated into a heap of gobbledy-gook, let me try making my argument a bit clearer:

“It’s cool for people on the left to disagree with one another and/or engage in intense debates. What we shouldn’t be doing is burning bridges.”

Is that better?

Gavin adds: I agree, and that makes this ceaseless whining about ‘civility’ (and I mean literal whining, not in the internet sense where the term is indiscriminately applied) even more malapropos.

It’s a passive-aggressive way of controlling the discussion while elevating oneself above it. It’s the last resort of a small person confronted by big events and ideas.

And also petty ideas. For instance, our own favorite humorless speech-scold, Ann “I Find That Offensive” B_rtow, was just in a fairly hilarious dust-up with Pinko Punko over the term, ‘cobag.’ ‘Cobag’ was invented as a non-gender-specific term of opprobrium to replace ‘douchebag’ — which one would think would be seen as a small step forward for gender equality, yet no retreat with regard to people who deserve to be called douchebags. But B_rtow, an academic liberal-feminist of the regrettable Where’s Waldo variety (is the offensiveness behind the tree? Is it in the pond stones?) asserts that the term should not be used because it might be seen as offensive by people with Crohn’s disease. B_rtow herself doesn’t have this condition, nor does she know anyone who does. But such a disease exists, and therefore we must not speak so, quod Ann.

I’m not linking to B_rtow right now because if I do she’ll come here in a huge tizzy, perhaps threatening reprisals and/or lawsuits, as she seems often to do when people criticize her or question her claims to be a victim-in-proxy for others. Using an ellipsis in her name will slow her down some, but there’ll eventually be a fresh explosion over at her blog, and we’ll be strewn with ash as usual. But I’m going to double-super stress this, because it’s a crucial point in this ongoing argument over ‘civility’: To avoid a circular firing squad, don’t let these people start one.

Bradrocket adds: Here’s a question- what constitutes healthy debate (something that should be encouraged on our side), and what constitutes a circular firing squad (which we all recognize is bad)?

Gavin adds: A sign of the dreaded ‘circular firing squad’ is when an argument has ceased to be about real things in the world, and has been reduced to semantics and word-games.

Simplicus: “We need to keep the nuclear option on the table with Iran.”

Socrates: “OMFG, are you on crack?”

Simplicus: “Now you’re cursing at me. Look, he’s cursing at me. This is inexcusable!”

Ann B_rtow: “It is insensitive to black people to refer to ‘crack’ in such an insulting way.”*

Socrates: “Wha? How does…? He’s talking about a fucking nuclear first-strike, what are you…?”

Simplicus: “See, he said ‘fuck’ again.”

Ann B_rtow: “Women are offended by such remarks”

Socrates: “I smell roses, no, ammonia — agh.” [Falls over dead from an aneurysm.]

[Montage of Iranian street scenes, children playing in schoolyards, nuclear explosions, etc.]

* actual argument


Comments: 154


I’ll handle her for you, Brad.


I continue to stress that all my comments at her place and my place were in good faith. Perhaps less so at parrotline, but that was for the contest. And the contest is an exercise in humility. I will continue to try to not burn bridges and be the bigger person. Even when my face turns purple because I am so mad.


humility? where the f*ck in civility did I get that? HYPERBOLE, although there is some humility when you see Snag and Assparrot are 800 times funnier that you are.


I like you, Pinko.


My problem with the likes of Kleiman is that the neocon thugs couldn’t have got where they are today without the acquiescence and enabling of certain elements of the left. So, when Feingold introduced his censure resolution, we had Pelosi pre-emptively speaking out against it. Today DiFi comes out pre-emptively in favor of Hayden for DCI, despite the fact that even Republicans have problems with him.

I will be civil to fucktards like Kleiman when they stop undercutting attempts to oppose this criminal administration. So, I got to disagree with you, Brad: Kleiman does indeed Suck Giant Green Slimy Goat Balls.


Damn. I can’t find the much talked about Cobag debate. After Crohn’s disease was thrown in the mix I would have countered with encephalitis. Nothing beats encephalitis.


Healthy debate is when you say something I agree with.

Since I agree that Kleiman does indeed suck giant green slimy goat balls, this is a healthy debate to have.


It’s hard to compete with the right because of their dishonesty. They have the ability to look the other way and hold their nose even when someone on “their side” offends them. They have the lockstep thing down to a tee. The whole party is held together by the fact that their unholy coalition of racists, Jesus freaks, millionaires and bedwetters all drink the same Kool-Aid.

On the left, we have all sorts of types who demand ideological purity to their pet cause, so you will get the occasional circular firing squad. But are any of us going to stay home on election day because Atrios got in a dustup with Wankette? I don’t think so. I think we’re making much ado of nothing.

There is also a lot of pent-up resentment because the Democratic establishment takes their base for granted. Sometimes it feels like they’re not fighting for us, as shargash mentions above. It’s our leaders who are poor team players, not the voices in the blogosphere.


I agree with Jk47. We don’t walk lock-in-step with each other, but in the end we’ll come together and do what’s right for the country. I don’t think anyone’s going to go to the dark side over this.


Sounds good to me, Mr. B. Debate = good, bridge burning = bad.

I suppose one could call referencing a metaphorical predilection for bestial teabagging of the abnormally large, green-beslimed sort on the part of another to be “bridge-burning.” Or runaway snark with a dash of mad-as-Hillary liberal anger.


It’s pretty circular firing squad to me, as far as this dustup goes.

He’s no Joe Klein, or Lieberman. He’s a wonk, and was suckered by Bush once. But after that, he’s been solid. Many centerist liberals were suckered.


The period after “Mr. B” should be taken as a final period. I was addressing Brad, I’m not talking to “Mr B Debate”.

Nor will I talk to Mr B Debate until he apologizes, that asshat.


Easy: My position is healthy debate, while yours is a circular firing squad.

Just apply Kant’s universalizability principle, and we’re done.


I’d rather deal with Mr. B Debate than Mr. B Natural. She scares me.




But, Mary Jones, don’t you want to feel like a happy king, too?



Dear fucking god no.


Heathcliffe, It’s me! Cathy come home! Let me in your windooowwwooooooowwwww.


I’d rather deal with Mr. B Debate than Mr. B Natural. She scares me.

Mr. B Natural is the spawn of Satan. I think she’s in exile somewhere in Africa. I heard that in the 70’s she was very chummy with Idi Amin.


The words of the revered Kate Bush should have turned to ashes in the mouth of annieangel. It’s a travesty that they appeared whole on my screen rather than, say, in the wavy, distorted form of one of those Internet security-check letter/numeral combos. Sadly, No boys? can you explain what happened?


Who cares?

Civility is the first argument of a surefire loser. Civility is why Jon Chiat doesn’t want Lieberman to lose to Lamont, despite not agreeing with much of Joementum’s stands. Civility is why Richard Cohen can sniff about Stephen Cobert in the pages of the Washington Post. Civility is the dodge to avoid the larger point. Civility in the ‘centrist liberal’ world has led as much as anything to our current state of affairs.

There has to be a new word to respectful disagreement and decorum because “Civility” as it’s currently constituted is unilateral neutering by image-conscious, status-seeking toadies who are so terrified at the rabble, the legitmately angry and the actual reasons we’re so pissed off that they’ve managed to managed to turn ‘decency’ into ‘surrender’.

Truman knew this type. There shouldn’t be a damn thing wrong with passionate disagreement or even moral outrage peppered with obscenities, so long as its honest and not manufactured. I think our incivility has been well-earned.


Colostomy bags are wonderful devices that help folks who have had colostomies process their feces. Both men and women may use them, so it is gender neutral.

Would a user of a colostomy bag be offended by the use of cobag as an insult? I suppose it would be awkward if you called someone a cobag only to learn that they had had a colostomy. Otherwise, a colostomy bag user who heard someone else called a cobag might not be offended. I, for one, would not want to hurt anyone’s feelings who was not the intended target of the insult.

To be on the safe side, I think “sack of sh*t” would be a better epithet. It is gender neutral and you don’t run the risk of maligning the disabled. Or, if you have to have the impact of the “bag” at the end of the word, “sh*tbag” might do.


Let us recall that in two very similar recent incidents, the Colbert routine and the occasion of Rosa Parks’ funeral, the same objection on the basis of civility and respect for the president was trotted out. No one had any answer to the charges, and the truth hurts, so they displaced their anger–at being caught with their pants down–onto the critic who humiliated them, not the Li’lest Cowpoke, whose insane policies opened them up to the charges in the first place.


Uncivil: Stephen Colbert’s satirical speech at a dinner that’s intended to be a roast.

Civil: Dick Cheney on the floor of the U.S. senate, telling Sen. Lehey to go fuck himself.

See? That was easy.


Damn–wrong window. Point still stands, though.


HEALTHY DEBATE: “open ended, open minded discussion; the possibility/probability that somone might change their mind or become enlightened to a new idea or understanding of an abstract concept, remains quite high.”

CIRCULAR FIRING SQUAD: “Fuck you you fucking smallminded douchebag, I’m, right, I’m right, I’m right. Now go fuck yourself. And did I tell you that I am right?”

That’s the difference.


I’m so cooooooollllldddddd, let me in your windowooooowooowww!


I’m staying out of this. Norms of civility are cultural, and quite frankly, I don’t understand most American norms of civility (and I’m not being mean about that…I just don’t understand them.) Where I live, people are extremely civil and polite to each other, one of the reasons being is that you know damn well you’ll be told off but good if you say or do anything assholish…quite often in the cleanest of language. Or, you’ll be given a gallic shrug and ignored…forever.


Oh come on Luther, if that’s the case, there’s never in American history been a “healthy debate” that’s been worth a sack of shit or changed a damn thing.

Civil Rights? You do realize of course, that one of the great ‘civil’ arguments was that they were just too angry and that, if they would just be patient things would change anyway. Sure, we look back on civil disobediance as part of the irrevocable march of justice — but that’s not how the ‘civil’ argument went back in the day.

Vietnam? It took eight long years of a ‘healthy debate’ before it finally ended.

Look, liberal has been used as an slur for more than 25 years and they control all branches of government. This is where healthy debate has gotten the democrats.


I think what starts the debate is disingenuousness on one side. For example Andrew Sullivan, Marshall Whitman and Ann Bartow are extremely disingenuous. They do not care to debate because they will ignore the whole of an argument for some small substructure of the argument, something that is not even weightbearing.


Has love hurt you pride, and I know what YOU”VE BEEN THROUGH, if you give me a chance, to start once again….you piece of SHIT!!!!

Onieiros Dreaming

When you put it that way, Luther, the Circular Firing Squad sounds a lot more tempting…


Did someone get annie’s car keys? I don’t want to let her to drive home when she’s like this.


I’m home, g. Where else would I be????


I think she’s playing out some kind of spurned-woman drama, isn’t she? Prompted by Brad’s nonresponse to her posts. At least, that’s what I gather from the content of her posts. Don’t know if that most recent one is another set of lyrics or what.

Anyway, isn’t the question of the circular firing squad about whether we should engage in public disagreement among ourselves or present a united front no matter what like those right-wingers? And also at what point such fights stop being productive and begin to look like internal weakness?

That’s a good question. I don’t have an answer. I tend to think that hammering the Democrats we think are weak-kneed and demanding better will make us stronger and more determined, but then I do like big shows of moral fortitude.


Forget that guy, Annie. Let him drink frozen OJ from now on.


God why are you being so nice to me? Why aren’;t you jlaughing at my opain???


This isn’t just a debate about whether or not it’s ok to say “fuck” in a comment or call someone an ass.

This gets to the larger issue of the Democrats’ strategy going into the mid-terms. Are they (along with their idiot enablers like Kleiman) going to continue acting like a bunch of scared, pansy-ass bastards who insist on “civility”, or will they finally take the gloves off and try to fight back and end this monstrous regime of murder, rape, and torture being carried out in our name? If there is any group I would like to see purged from the Democratic party, it’s the former.

And as someone who works day-in and day-out with “moderate” DC Democrats, whose intellectual capacity for strategic political thinking begins and ends with, “Hey, let’s piss off the left so we look more centrist”, this crap REALLY gets to me!


Let’s see.

1. Spouting outrageously hypocritical religious beliefs in order to spur angry replies and refutations which are then ignored. Check.

2. Random insults (favorite: “fuck off”) alternating with sucking up. Check.

3. Naked demonstrations of low self-esteem masquerading as grandiosity (e.g., “I own this board”). Check.

4. Attempting to hijack thread with shameless whining and self-pity. Check.


STH, I got confused and thought, up until your point #2, that you were talking about the Democratic circular firing squad. Which expression, by the way, I nominate for the Internet Dumpster that exists in my mind, along with “spot-on.”


Sometimes I feel like a Motherless child, a long long way from home.


“a long long way from home.”

Now you see why I don’t think it’s wise to let you drive?

Folks, just brush those newspapers off the couch so she has a place to land when she passes out.


But still the warmth flows though me, and i sense you know me well. It’s only common sense, there are no accidnets round here.

Who wants to explore??? Who craves adventure>????


Well, annieangel, since you’ve told everyone at this particular “home” to fuck off and die at one point or another, perhaps there is a lesson in here somewhere.


Civility is nice. I, for one, dig it. There’s absolutely no reason to be a shit-ass to people just for the sake of being a shit-ass, and being a shit-ass to score political points in online debate is definately being a shit-ass. Granted, I am a hopeless pothead and negative emotions from others do seem evoke an unpleasent physical reaction in me, so there’s that to consider.

That being said, some people deserve to be treated like a shit-ass. Some shit’s beyond the pale. For example, arguing that the U.S. government has a right, nay duty to engage in torture or warrentless, unsupervised spying on U.S. civilians, all in the name of “protecting” all that’s American and holy and Caucasian from the Islamohomofacist Immigrant CommieNazis Darwinists, to my mind, is the modern equivalent of saying black people don’t have it in them to govern, thus Jim Crow is a good thing. You’re a shit-ass if you make such an argument and you should be told as much.

The funny thing about this whole “civility” debate to me is that it mainly seems to arise whenever someone comments on the Bush administration in a less than loving way. Colbert, Rosa Parks funeral and so on. Thing that struck me is no one who’s getting the vapors over either do much to disprove what Colbert or the folks as Mrs. Parks’ funeral said with actual, you know, facts. No, they’re just being big ol’ meanies going after the poor defenseless president.

Is that not funny to anyone else? The most powerful man in the world, who’s party controls all three branches of the government and is backed by a status quo-defending “free press”, might get his feelings hurt if you point out some of the unpleasent realities of his administration.

So, yeah…be civil in your day-to-day interactions, even with people you disagree with strongly, for there’s nothing to gain in being a shit-ass. Go after the active dirtbags who love to see others suffer and those who abuse their power for no other reason than to gain more power with a intellectual baseball bat every chance you get. It’s all a question of spending your energy on the proper targets.

As for Wonkette, ehhh…if she was a dude – or a non-cute, non-young girl – no one would give a shit. Shame she’s the face of liberal blogging when there’s so many other good folks out there doing it so much better.


Nicely put, Lucy. It takes a special kind of shamelessness to come HERE for sympathy.


Hey Lucy, go fuck yourself!!!! I pray you end up getting played!!!!


Actually, annie, I don’t really know what’s going on with you at the moment, but if you are actually in some kind of pain and not putting it on, then you have my sympathy. May you rise from the ashes of this setback and live to curse us all another day.


There’s nothing wrong with a circular firing squad as long as the tosser you’re trying to shoot is in the middle of it.

OK, that has no discernable value as an analogy.

Probably better to have this debate now than in the lead-up to the midterms, when I imagine the crazed howls of “Splitter!” will resound with renewed fury. One of the reasons I stopped reading Kleiman was because of his infantile Nader-bashing (while we’re talking bridge-burning versus civility) so Retardo’s post struck a chord, but I can see the pickle ya’ll’re in, what with that “biggest tribe wins” voting system you got going over there and a batshit evil party to unite against. Good luck.


Woah. I feel like I should apoogize for what I said about you on my blog, Lucy.


One of the reasons I stopped reading Kleiman was because of his infantile Nader-bashing (while we’re talking bridge-burning versus civility)

RobW, dunno where you’re from, but you’ve really missed the point. For years, Nader was a vampire publicity whore sucking the American Left’s blood.

He’s not of the Left, or the Democratic party, or anything except his own moonlit arsehole.

He’s especially not entitled to civility after showing his true colors and taking Republican money in 2004.

His bridge should be burned, a stake driven through it, and the ashes burned again. Vampire asshat.


This has got to be Annie’s finest hour. Have you guys been over to her blog? Somebody should archive it for posterity, because it is truly amazing.

I’m not even being snarky. Annie is comedy gold. Even though I’m an atheist, I have to say God bless you, Annie, you fucking weirdo.


FUck you. 🙂 DOnt think I’m too drunk to remember.


Actually, if my selective memory serves correctly, the right seems to ONLY trot out the “civility” thing is when it’s about Bush or Cheney, or those immediately connected to them. It’s a kind of royalty worship.

Insults and offenses to the footsoldiers like pundits and bloggers seem to be accepted as the risks of battle, but failing to display proper respect to Dear Leader and the rest of the Court is what raises their ire.

It’s also the nature of the supposed offense. They shrug off comments about Bush being a killer, warmonger, liar, etc., what they REALLY take offense at is anything that makes fun of them.


FUck you. 🙂 DOnt think I’m too drunk to remember.

Aww, you’re the best. Thanks sweetie.


(Walk down the corridor)
M: (Knock)
A: Come in.
M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A: I told you once.
M: No you haven’t.
A: Yes I have.
M: When?
A: Just now.
M: No you didn’t.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn’t
A: I did!
M: You didn’t!
A: I’m telling you I did!
M: You did not!!
A: Oh, I’m sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
M: Oh, just the five minutes.
A: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not.
A: Look, let’s get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.
M: No you did not.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn’t.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn’t.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn’t.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn’t.
A: Did.
M: Oh look, this isn’t an argument.
A: Yes it is.
M: No it isn’t. It’s just contradiction.
A: No it isn’t.
M: It is!
A: It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A: I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A: No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A: Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A: No it isn’t.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn’t; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn’t just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can’t. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn’t.
M: Yes it is! It’s not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that’s not just saying ‘No it isn’t.’
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn’t!

A: Yes it is!
M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)
A: No it isn’t.
M: It is.
A: Not at all.
M: Now look.
A: (Rings bell) Good Morning.
M: What?
A: That’s it. Good morning.
M: I was just getting interested.
A: Sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: That was never five minutes!
A: I’m afraid it was.
M: It wasn’t.
A: I’m sorry, but I’m not allowed to argue anymore.
M: What?!
A: If you want me to go on arguing, you’ll have to pay for another five minutes.
M: Yes, but that was never five minutes, just now. Oh come on!
A: (Hums)
M: Look, this is ridiculous.
A: I’m sorry, but I’m not allowed to argue unless you’ve paid!
M: Oh, all right.
(pays money)
A: Thank you.
short pause
M: Well?
A: Well what?
M: That wasn’t really five minutes, just now.
A: I told you, I’m not allowed to argue unless you’ve paid.
M: I just paid!
A: No you didn’t.
A: No you didn’t.
M: Look, I don’t want to argue about that.
A: Well, you didn’t pay.
M: Aha. If I didn’t pay, why are you arguing? I Got you!
A: No you haven’t.
M: Yes I have. If you’re arguing, I must have paid.
A: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.
M: Oh I’ve had enough of this.
A: No you haven’t.
M: Oh Shut up.

(Walks down the stairs. Opens door.)

M: I want to complain.
C: You want to complain! Look at these shoes. I’ve only had them three weeks and the heels are worn right through.
M: No, I want to complain about…
C: If you complain nothing happens, you might as well not bother.
M: Oh!
C: Oh my back hurts, it’s not a very fine day and I’m sick and tired of this office.

(Slams door. walks down corridor, opens next door.)

M: Hello, I want to… Ooooh!
H: No, no, no. Hold your head like this, then go Waaah. Try it again.
M: uuuwwhh!!
H: Better, Better, but Waah, Waah! Put your hand there.
M: No.
H: Now..
M: Waaaaah!!!
H: Good, Good! That’s it.
M: Stop hitting me!!
H: What?
M: Stop hitting me!!
H: Stop hitting you?
M: Yes!
H: Why did you come in here then?
M: I wanted to complain.
H: Oh no, that’s next door. It’s being-hit-on-the-head lessons in here.
M: What a stupid concept.


Shoe steals from me and it’s comedy>?>? You need to REPENT@@@@@!!@


annie, I know you’re drunk honey, but I meant that to be addressing the topic which I believe was stupid arguments that go exactly nowhere.

Not everything is about you…


In fairness to Kleiman, his Nader-bashing certainly wasn’t that infantile.


(I am soooo going to regret this, but…here goes)

Annie – You have spent the past several weeks here, including today, lashing out in the most vile way at every woman who comments here. What was that you called Hysterical Woman earlier today? “Fucking skank,” IIRC.

And now you come in here with your broken heart and, what…we’re suddenly all supposed to be sisters-in-arms and BFFs. You think you have some claim on Jillian and celticgirl, demanding that they be nice to you because you’ve been screwed over by some guy, even after the way you’ve insulted them? No, dear, it doesn’t work that way.

As one human being to another, I’m sorry you’re in pain. You deserve no less than that. But given your past and recent behavior here, you certainly deserve no more. In fact, you’ve gotten far more sympathy than reprobation here than, I believe, you have a right to.

(And, for the record, the above is my own opinion. I do not assume to speak for the other women I mentioned in this post.)


You definitely speak for me, cranky.


Oh, so this is where that boring shemale Anal Annie went to.

Hadn’t seen him over at Atrios’ in some time…


cranky: thank you for that, it probably needed to be said.

(Between you and me and the wall, some of us long-time female commentators are feeling like we’ve been thrown under the bus lately by some of the ‘boys’, if you know what I mean and I think you do. I may be going out on a limb here, but I think I speak for at least a couple of regular female posters in that regard.)


cranky: thank you for that, it probably needed to be said.

(Between you and me and the wall, some of us long-time female commentators are feeling like we’ve been thrown under the bus lately by some of the ‘boys’, if you know what I mean and I think you do. I may be going out on a limb here, but I think I speak for at least a couple of regular female posters in that regard.)


Oops – jinx!


Annie, it’s civilty-day here, so I thought I should inteject briefly.

Dr. BLT came by before, and I’ve said something like this to him in the past as well. As a troll, you’re in a position where people appreciate you in some ways, but mostly battle with you day in and day out. When you’re mean and cutting to people, that becomes kind of the tenor of the relationship.

That said, heartbreak is nasty, and I wish you didn’t have to have any.


Annie Anal, please shut up fuck off and let the whole stripper for God shtick go, OK. We are bored of you. Sorry for not being civil and all, but like fuck off.


some of us long-time female commentators are feeling like we’ve been thrown under the bus lately by some of the ‘boys’, if you know what I mean and I think you do. I may be going out on a limb here, but I think I speak for at least a couple of regular female posters in that regard.

Really? You mean in comments or in posts?


Gavin, I would simply ask that you go back and re-read cranky’s comment. I think that pretty much says it all.


Im not a fucking troll!!!!


Yes you are.


Gavin, I would simply ask that you go back and re-read cranky’s comment. I think that pretty much says it all.

Well, spell it out for me better. I’ve missed a lot of these episodes…


No I’m not. Anyone who calls themsleves FAGGOT is a troll.


Annie, you argue with everyone every day about how they’re silly liberals who are going to Hell.

There’s no shame in being a troll! Lots of fine, upstanding people are trolls.

It’s about being the best troll that one can be!


Gavin, I am not a troll. You wish to keep calling me one, it’s on you. I’m in pain, keep mocking.


Gavin – The answer to your question is: Both!

She’s rude and insulting to all of the female commentators here. And yet you guys continually offer her warm sympathies and invite her back, using both posts and comments designed to elicit her feedback and keep her coming back for more.

Fine. Ok. Her interactions with the men on this board are much different than with women — see her earlier comments on this thread, e.g., “I like you, Pinko” compared to (paraphrasing here) “Hysterical woman, you’re a fucking skank!”

I get that you all have a different relationship with her than the women here, and I try very hard not to be too judgemental of that fact. But certainly you can see where we’re coming from on this. I refuse (REFUSE!) to believe men are that out of touch with these issues.


Hysterical Woman lied on me. And fuck you too cranky.! BAN ME!!!! Come on Gavin…


I’m in pain, keep mocking.

Is there anything more easy to mock than a grown woman histrionically posting about someone called “shoelimpy” stealing her bank card? Is there anything easier to make fun of than the author of “How To Be A Christian Wife” getting fucked over by a guy despite her daily orange squeezing? Is there anyone more deserving of mockery than someone who brags about how she knows how to keep a man happy, then posts this on her blog:

“It’s obvious that I’m not good enough to be loved or to be anyone’s friend unless they want something from me. I’m just to be used and cast aside. It’s a recurring theme I don’t know how to break.”

Is there anything easier to make fun of than a fundie Xian who comes to a liberal comedy/snark site for sympathy? It’s like cutting your leg then jumping in a shark tank and hoping the sharks bandage the wound for you.

Annie, it’s like you’re begging us to abuse you. I just can’t control myself anymore.


Hysterical Woman lied on me. And fuck you too cranky.! BAN ME!!!! Come on Gavin…

Okay, it’s on the record that you asked me to do that.

Why don’t you take a time-out, ’cause things are getting a bit thick here.


No! I didn’t do shit. Ban me. I mean, it FUN to pick on me!!! Everyone is allowed, so BAN ME!!!


Yes, yes, whatever, Annie. Fuck you, too, you “fucking skank!” If you weren’t desperately reaching out to Gavin for a life vest here, you wouldn’t be making such comments.

You made your bed, now fucking lie in it.


You think i CARE about this site after what has happend today??

Keep on calling me names, it’s cool if YOU do it!!!!


Gavin – My 2-yr old barely responds to “time-outs” (a ridiculous disciplinary action that no small children really repond to).

Do you honestly think AA is going to get it?


Yeah, now I’m a two year old. God, you’re more pathetic than me!!!


I think now is the time when someone should introduce a new topic, to clear the air so to speak.

how about “Saturday Night Live: So not Funny that it is Funny Again?”

my answer: I am going with SNL is still not funny. However, I haven’t watched it in years.
[that is my NRO Corner impersonation]


Yeah, SNL is so not funny anymore. I can’t stand how they blatantly look at the teleprompters now. That’s very distracting.


Anything with TOM CRUISE!!


Oh, Annie! Honestly, I’m pathetic in so many ways. But certaintly no more so than you. And CERTAINLY not because I happen to have a 2-yr old child.

Really. Stop it. Grow up!

We all want to sympathize with you here, but you make it so damn hard!


SNL is teh suck. It’s a very difficult show to do, which is why it only works when extremely brilliant people are in the cast. They seem to be aiming at a younger and younger demographic… or maybe I’m just getting older and older. Either way, the sense of humor on that show has gotten incredibly juvenile and lowbrow.

The last “golden age” of the show was probably in the early 90’s, when they had very talented individuals like Bob Odenkirk and Conan O’Brien behind the scenes. The Will Ferrell years had their moments, but really the show hasn’t been good in quite a while.

The book “Live From New York” is an excellent read with lots of fascinating first-hand accounts of the show’s history. Those early years were just pure magic. The show would probably not exist today if not for Eddie Murphy, who rescued the show from the Jean Doumanian train wreck in the early 80’s. If you’re a fan of the show at all, I highly recommend that book.


Anyone who calls herself annieanal is a troll. Or, more accurately, himself because you are a pimply 14 year old loser who eats too many cheetos and fantasizes about fucking yourself. Seriously, fuck off, you are boring.


I’m waiting on Gavin.


I love it–act like a raging bitch, then boo-hoo-poor-me when somebody points it out.

Personally, I think wingers like to play the victim card because they know us lefties are compassionate people. Well, we’re compassionate, but we aren’t suckers. Act like a grown-up for once, annie. Be respectful of us and we’ll be respectful of you. I don’t think you will, though, because YOU’RE the one that wants to use us for sympathy and attention. Isn’t that what you’ve been trying to accomplish all this time? Me me me! Pay attention to me!

And here’s a preview of annie’s response: Fuck off, skank! Poor me!


I like to watch reruns on E! The old weekend news segments were the funnies to me. I just can’t take Tina Fey. She just can’t seem to get it right (and I don’t even know what who that blonde chick is, sad to say).


Just curious: Who was the first fucking wanker asshole dumb-ass sonofabitch to use the word “civility” in this whole retarded fight? Because as far as I can see, it wasn’t the object of this blog’s fury.


That “what” is obviously a typo…gah!


Wait, disregard my last post – in which I jumped to a conclusion like the fucking lazy dumb-ass wanker that I am.

I’m sorry – I SUCK, and I know it, so don’t bother telling me.

Now ‘scuse me while I go catch up.


Still waiting on Gavin wondering if he’s reading everything or just what I say.


Annie dear, they mock you because you’re an easy target: a faux-fundie with a marvelously foul mouth.

I’m undecided in how I should react. On the one hand, I could promise we won’t mock you in Hell; candy grows on trees ‘round these parts. On the other, the ex-angel in me – the one just screaming in agony to be heard – says you should keep better company.

Instead of writing screeds on how women should behave, you should read some serious writing on how Christian men are commanded to behave: http://www.desiringgod.org/library/series/LBMW.html

/good end

Hahahaha! Stooopid! You got screwed 🙂


OK, I’ve read everyting pertinent.

I agree w/Brad R. Please forgive me for being such a knee-jerk wanker.


My college roomates and I had a tape of the first retrospective SNL did (I think it was 15 year anniversary). Those bits were so funny, we would just watch it over and over again. There has been some funny since. Will Farell did some good things. Chris Farley and Adam Sandler were almost always hilarious. But it just didn’t seem the same – having individual funny bits, but not a cohesive whole, I guess is what I am going for here.

I will check out that book JK, sounds great.


I didn’t get screwed, I just got reamed by my bank. But I did puke on the floor in front of the neighbor, so he got something out of it.


Oh for Chrissakes! Fuck off, all of you “I’m not sure how to react to Annie” bastards. Really, is it such a mystery?

She a flirtatious skank, who hopes to engender some good will here by raising her skirt and begging the guys to flirt with her in the hopes of drowning out the voices of other women.

Good job, Annie. Mission accomplished! With those legs, you’ll never be banned. Congrats!


Wow. I should be banned for that!!!


CRANKY: Oh for Chrissakes! Fuck off, all of you “I’m not sure how to react to Annie” bastards. Really, is it such a mystery?

No, but I’m only 99.95% evil.


She a flirtatious skank, who hopes to engender some good will here by raising her skirt and begging the guys to flirt with her in the hopes of drowning out the voices of other women.

Allow me to go on the record and say that I have no interest in Annie’s legs. It is certainly true that Annie is vicious to the other women here, which is why it’s okay to be mean to her. It’s all fun and games, or she wouldn’t come here. I don’t pretend to know the actual person behind the posts, just the character “annieangel.”

Playing with Annie is like playing a role-playing game. She has concocted such an absurd persona, it’s really kind of brilliant. The psychodrama playing out on her blog today is actually far more entertaining than anything she has posted here. If Annie isn’t pulling our leg with her ludicrous histrionics, tales of orange juice and profanity-laced Christianism, she is truly off her nut.


And I keep getting ruder and ruder…really, how can you put up with me, Gavin????



Falls over dead from an aneurysm.

As one who has successfully recovered from a thoracic aortic dissection (aneurysm to you), I find your remark highly insensitive.


This site rules! Shoelimpy heads South with stolen plastic, Annie on a bender, thoughts on civil discourse, orange juice, and christianity. I love the internets.

This is all parody right?


This is all parody right?

Sadly, no?


Has Sadly, possibly! ever been used?


My cat had kittens!


Sadly, no?

Mary, that is the funniest thing I’ve seen all day.


Jesus. I leave annie alone for a couple of hours. She’s still conscious?

Regarding whether annie is a parody or actually bat-shit fucking crazy — I posted in a thread below, and I’ll repeat it here, annieangel reminds me of the Kathy Bates character in Stephen King’s “Misery.”

The character is actually named Annie, which makes it even more apt. Although I don’t really know anything about ACTUAL manic depressive disorder, The character as written is a frightening depiction of a manic-depressive who alternates between prudish little-girlishness and brutal, terrifying anger. If you go to annie’s website, you get a pretty comprehensive picture.


And now, a word about nasturtiums*:

“[N]asturtiums (Tropaeolum majus) are a wonderful choice for [a] first garden. The seeds are large enough for small hands to handle and the leaves and flowers are entirely edible. …

Nasturtiums are suitable for all but the coldest climate zones. Sow seeds in early spring in warm areas and in late spring to early summer in cooler zones. …

Nasturtiums are an attractive and nutritious addition to salads, and they make a beautiful garnish. Nasturtiums have 10 times the vitamin C of lettuce.”

*from GardenGuides.com


How do I get away with the things I say, Gavin??? You’re reading everything, correct??


I love nasturtiums! Had some in a salad just yesterday.

They grow wild where I live — they’re actually a noxious invasive weed. But I like the way the hills look with them.


From the Wikipedia entry on the “mania,” the “manic” part of manic depression:

In addition to decreased need for sleep, other manic symptoms include irritability, hypersexuality, hyper-religiosity, hyperactivity, talkativeness, flight-of-ideas, and grandiose ideas and plans.

Sound like someone we know?


You know, El D. a lot of people cannot afford gardens. and others do not have hands to garden with. Your post is offensive to people who will not be able to partake of gardening. Or do you just not care about who is hurt by your comments? well it is your choice.



Please don’t feed the trolls.

It’s just that simple.

I’d really like to say a bunch more, but I am being tempted away with offers of mint chocolate chip ice cream. The good kind.

If y’all were here, I’d totally share it.


I’m drunk, you idiot. But just keep it up! I know it must be a ban-worthy offense for you to talk about me like you are. So come on Gavin, BAN ME for what others say about me!! I have no right to respond in kind as you have more or less stated, SO BAN ME!!!


Well, just to be clear here: people with Bipolar Disorder (manic depression), like mentally ill people in general, are MUCH more likely to hurt themselves than they are to hurt anybody else.

The website is definitely weird, g. I was struck by the apparent lack of any inner life demonstrated on it. She has some opinions, yes, but shows no sign of actually thinking about them. And they obviously aren’t integrated into her life. Religion is just something she uses to bludgeon people, not a deeply-held belief system that affects how she lives her life. And isn’t it interesting how she doesn’t have anything positive to say about anyone?


Wow. I can’t believe I actually just read that whole thang! My goodness me.

There’s about ten gazillion things I want to say here. Ain’t gonna. Wouldn’t be prudent.*

*Apologies to Dana Carvey

Here’s my take, in a Nut’s Shell (thanks Brad!!). Sadly, No has a very specific kind of funny, smart, clever snarkiness you just don’t find. It’s like inside humor wrapped in secret code. It has been cracking me up for months, even though I’ve only been contributing for a couple weeks.

But here’s the obvious thing. Annieangel’s posts change the tone of the comments. They stop having the literary, layered complexity that, if we’re honest, we’re all pretty proud when we carry it off. She makes it personal, angry, and creates a discourse orders of magintude below what the denizens of this blog are capable of. Personally? I’d ban her. Not for any particular transgression other than just Not Being Funny.

Just Sayin’



Well, the mob has spoken Gavin…burn me!! Or ban me, it’s easier and you’ll sleep beeter.


Yes, there’s just something too weird about going to something called the “Blog of Peace” and reading “FUCK OFF YOU STUPID CUNT!” posted in entry after entry, while little roses tumble down from the sky.

Hey, Jillian. Can I have some of that ice cream? I just finished dinner. I have some strawberries I can contribute, altho I don’t know how well they go with mint chocolate chip.


She makes it personal, angry, and creates a discourse orders of magintude below what the denizens of this blog are capable of. Personally? I’d ban her. Not for any particular transgression other than just Not Being Funny.

I dunno, it’s a slow day. Annie is good filler on a slow day. Tomorrow or sometime very soon P-Swank and Marie Jon’ and all of the rest of our beloved cast of characters will be back.

I could really use another X-TREME WINGNUT PREACHOFF right about now.


I can’t believe the abuse I’m heaping on people here! I’m getting way too personal! I should really be banned….I’m sure Atrios and the Genreal would agree. You;re rocking the boat with me here!!!


I always think of JK Rowling carrying around an AK-47 when I see your name.

It doesn’t distract from your posts. it just makes me laugh. It took me a little while to figure out why I kept picturing that.

The Ruppert/B_rtow Love Child

The fact is AnnieAngel supports patriarchy and alcoholism, and supporting alcoholism means being Kennedy apologists, and thems Kennedys loves terrorists, who are patriarchal too.

The website is definitely weird, g.

The Democrat media will never write about this whiff of Ebonics, with a touch of white priviledge.


I know this is well-trod ground, but may I just say that I miss Floyd Alvis Cooper? I prefer my trolls less codependant I guess.

P.S.: Yankees r c0b4gz!!!1!uno!!


It’s an ironic nickname some friends gave me. I’m a skinny white guy, so the name JK47 gives me some street cred I so sorely lack.

It’s going to be my alias in my breakdancing crew, when I learn to breakdance, which will be never.


Is this the biggest flamefest I’ve ever seen on this site?

Sadly, Yes!


It’s ok to flame me, Jeff. Gavin said so.


OK. Mind if I join in then?


I dunno, it’s a slow day. Annie is good filler on a slow day. Tomorrow or sometime very soon P-Swank and Marie Jon’ and all of the rest of our beloved cast of characters will be back.

Do they take requests around these parts? Because Debbie Schlussel penned an absolute charmer of an article a couple of days ago that I’d love to see someone have a go at. Here’s a quick taste:

The behavior of the stripper and alleged victim, as initially reported by her father and a fellow stripper, also appears to prove that nothing illicit happened. Ditto for the picture of the stripper smiling upon her return home. Then, there is her past criminal history and the fact that she is the single mother of two kids by different fathers.

Wow. She smiled at some point and she’s a single mom? That’s a woman who serves frozen OJ if I’ve ever seen one.


Ask Gavin, it’s his site.


Here’s a question- what constitutes healthy debate (something that should be encouraged on our side), and what constitutes a circular firing squad (which we all recognize is bad)?

When our side is in power, everything’s healthy debate. When we are out of power, most of the above is a circular firing squad.

Eye on the prize and all that.

On the other hand, even when out of power, who the fuck wants to live in a world where you can’t call Kevin Drum the most boring man alive, and Ann Bartow a hypersensitive old bat?


OMG, you’ve done it now. She’ll be over here for sure! You’ll be reamed for offending bats by insinuating that they’re somehow overly sensitive.

By the way, Debbie Schlussel gives me the creeps.


DA, it’s emu.

cranky, half the people here think you are anniea or in cahoots with her, so they don’t know what to think. namecalling is always out, but the namecalling starts usually when people try to attack double-a on something crazy that comes out of her mouth, or where she’s being provocative. That is rising to the bait. A lot of people don’t rise to the bait, thus they don’t get into crazy hissy fights with her. I would say this, if you don’t already think double-a is a joke, then just don’t talk to her at all. Her calling people skanks is her MO, so what do you expect? The wait to keep threads from going to crap is to not go there.

Internets Spiritual Sage

The Internets Priests asked me to perform an Exorcism on this thread. This thread is wrong, evil, and gives the internets a bad name.

Allright, here it goes, “In the name of all that is sensible, just, and cheap, begone Sadly, No! thread that attempts to be civil. It ain’t gonna happen.


Hey. Jillian, where is that ice cream? I delivered the strawberries as promised.


Hmmm. I seem to recall Jillian threatening to sub soy corn dogs for your real ones because you were sucking up to Miss AA, Pinko. And I planned to call down the Snot Monsters on you again, which I still reserve the right to do. So WE’RE encouraging her?

Starting the Snot Monster hex now . . . .


The Internets Priests asked me to perform an Exorcism on this thread

Atah, malkoot, vigboorah, vigdoolah, liholam, amen! Before us, Pastor Swank. Behind us, Marie Jon’. On our left, Kay Grogan. On our right, Debbie Schussel! [stamp stamp]

I have a theory. The topmost post of the day always has the longest thread. This is clearly because natural selection has evolved us to conserve energy, and scrolling is tiresome. Therefore, I propose that the meatiest post, the one most conducive to humour, the most Swankerific, should be the last one of the day.






I hated to do it, Pinko, but you left me no choice.


So, I was over at the message forum at acclaimedmusic.net, and guess who is there, peddling his crap-ass, cheesy music? That’s right, Dr. BLT. Here’s what he posted:

“Will this retro-rap trance-dance song be adopted by immigrants across America as a theme for their demonstrations? I’ll let you folks decide if it’s a hit or a miss.

The Immigrant
words and music by Dr. BLT & DJ EJ”

I don’t need to hear this song to know that it blows. Retro-rap trance-dance? What the fuck is that? I’ll tell you what it is, it’s shorthand for “Some piece of crap I made with my circa-1992 Alesis SR-16 drum machine, a Korg M1 and my ADATs.” Dude, leave the poor music geeks alone. Do not interrupt us as we discuss which Graham Parker and the Rumour record is their best.

But he wasn’t finished there.

“while you’r at it, here’s another free mp3 that’s gaining momentum. Will it reach the top 30 among mp3 downloads, like Dr. BLT’s Black Santa song did back in December of 2005? I’ll let you decide that as well:

United 93
words and music by Dr. BLT (c)2006”

The suspense is killing me!!! Dude, I have to know, did “United 93” crack the “top 30 among mp3 downloads” or not? Bro, your song isn’t in the top 30 million, and trolling music geek discussion boards is not going to get it there. See, the site is called “acclaimedmusic.net,” which means the people that go there are trying to talk about GOOD music, not your amateurish bullshit. This is not your target audience, dude. These people actually recognize steaming piles of shit when they hear them.

There was only one short response to his post, which really said it all:

“Please go away.”


cranky, half the people here think you are anniea or in cahoots with her

Yes, Pinko Punko, I’m aware of that. I assure you however that I am not annie, nor am I in cahoots with her.

I had been simply avoiding any engagement with her, but tonight I had a few glasses of wine and I rose to the bait. I apologize for the hissy fight. I’ll go back to ignoring her. (And if it wasn’t for her attacks on women, she would be a very funny parody troll.)


Atah, malkoot, vigboorah, vigdoolah, liholam, amen! Before us, Pastor Swank. Behind us, Marie Jon’. On our left, Kay Grogan. On our right, Debbie Schussel! [stamp stamp]

Wow. Never thought I’d see the LBRP on here.

I think I’m a little scared now. Especially if you’re calling those as archangels.

Nancy in Detroit

It’s going to be my alias in my breakdancing crew, when I learn to breakdance, which will be never.

Dammit, JK, I’ve had my new monitor for all of THREE minutes . . .

*humming Bounty quicker-picker-upper song*


Sigh….I really wanted to get back to this yesterday, but when an absolutely adorable gay man wearing nothing more than a pair of board shorts brings you bowls of ice cream and curls up to watch movies with you, you kind of let things slide.

People who are genuinely committed to progressive views have very, very little incentive to work with the modern Democratic party. Not only is it a liberal party, but it’s looking more and more like a nineteenth century caricature of a liberal party all the time. I pretty much expect the next Democratic candidate for president to have a name like “Sir Reginald Darnley” and to have a walrus mustache and monocle, and walk around saying things like “Pish tosh! If workhouses were good enough for the poor in my sainted mother’s time, they’re good enough for the poor today, what-what.” Oh, and a top hat. And a watch on a fob. I’ll stop now.

If liberals want progressives to work with them, they need to have *specific goals* that they want progressives to help them with, and they have to not be surprised when the progressives oppose them on just about everything else. It’s not personal; it’s politics.

As far as the circular firing squad goes….it only looks circular, because everybody seems to think they’re on the same side, and they’re not. Daily Kos (for example) is NOT on “my side”. This isn’t to say that they’re evil – there’s lots of good folks there, and there’s lots and lots and lots of opportunity for me to work together with that group of folks on stuff – but we’re just not pursuing the same goals. And I’m not confused or naive enough to think we are.

But with the dumbing down of political discourse in this country in recent years, lots of folks are.


but when an absolutely adorable gay man wearing nothing more than a pair of board shorts brings you bowls of ice cream and curls up to watch movies with you, you kind of let things slide.

Curse you, Jillian. Curse you to HECK!
[radiates jealousy so hot, it could burn the sun]
Ah, well…we’re only a couple o’ weeks away from IML… yes, precious, yessss…..


Hey, let’s face it, an adorable gay man in board shorts bringing me ice cream doesn’t really do either me *or* him any good. Even were either of us so inclined, I could never pass for mannish on my best (or worst, depending on your POV) day. Ann Coulter, I ain’t.


BTW, Gavin, I really larfed lots n’ lots at the Socrates/Simplicus/Ann B_rtow playlet. nothing says “Comedy Gold” like a death by aneurysm somewhere in the scene. Good thing I wasn’t drinking fluids when I got to:

“I smell roses, no, ammonia — agh.”



Virginia Beach, Chesapeake, Norfolk Real Estate Agent, Homes For Sale in Hampton Roads Virginia.


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