Stuff you can do
So the teabaggers have apparently made it their personal jihad to preserve our inefficient and substandard health care system. As is their wont, they see health care reform as an effort to help give freebies to illegal immigrants rather than to Real Americans:
In a sane country, people would laugh these nutters off as fringe kooks. But we don’t live in a sane country. That means that our side needs to have boots on the ground at these town hall meetings to counteract wingnut madness. And hey look, the good folks at Health Care for America Now have a page where you can search for events in your own area.
Oh, and the good folks at FireDogLake have provided us with this frequently-updated list of town hall meetings where you can tell your congressman that you want reform:
Here’s why this is important, peeps. If the Dems actually flub health care, the GOP could take back the House in 2010. And I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m not willing to see the Terri Schiavo Resurrection Act of 2011 pass just yet. So let’s get on this nonsense and kick the wingers to the curb.
UPDATE: Via Knights in White Satin, an instructive post on how to mitigate teabag events in your district.
why not just stand in the audience with a laugh-track on tape at the ready, and when someone says something crazy say, “Oh, Grandma! Come on, Lets go home!”
Seriously. I remember a time when nutters were excluded from the argument by just laughing at them. Since when do we have to take them seriously?
You don’t have to take them seriously. But you have to show them you don’t take them seriously.
The trouble is if these guys continue their success at creating a media spectacle, our Super Liberal Media will declare that they’re representative of Real America, just like the Brooks Brothers Riots in Florida in 2000.
So it’s good to, you know, make your voice heard even if the opposition is ridiculous.
Despite being from New York State, Eric Massa could hold his own in a Klan meeting
Anyone going?
WTF?
On the sidebar here: “John Stossel is A Corporate Tool”
What, did someone just notice?
I love that the “Marxism” sign-guy is just so dedicated to the cause of political revolution that he can’t even be bothered to take off his i-Pod.
We got the Gwen Moore on the Zombie radar. freakin’ SIX HOURS? Now THAT’S Townhallin it.
This is just what I’ve been looking for….
Bring your cameras!
The favctg ikss,
Wait…is that bimbo holding up a sign that actually says “Senior Citizens Can Drop Dead”?
Does she have a grandmother?
While I agree that it’s important for progressives to get out there and counteract the wingnut madness, I’m a bit less concerned about their whole town hall strategy than some people seem to be. I’ve watched videos of a couple of their town hall interruptions, and read accounts of a few others, and so far all they seem to be doing is yelling as loud as they can and shouting people down.
Now, of course you and I know that they have no actual ideas of their own, no strategy, no alternative plan aside from the status quo, so none of this is a surprise to us. But many others are seeing their dementia for the first time. People watching the news are simply seeing disrupters screaming and ranting, and to them it probably looks no different from any other “protester”, which the average voter tends to lump together into one giant package of kooks who disrupt shit and scream a lot of incoherent nonsense.
So in short, yes, by all means let’s get out there and provide some balance, but I really don’t think these teabagging idiots are going to do much aside from look stupid as usual.
yeah, actor, her sign shows an old person with a Frito-Bandito mustache, and the top says Senor Citizens.
See, it’s a play on similar words. Yes, it’s incoherent. BUT NOT A BIT RACIST.
Not to mention completely wrong.
I’ve watched videos of a couple of their town hall interruptions, and read accounts of a few others, and so far all they seem to be doing is yelling as loud as they can and shouting people down.
No, but the media treats them as Real Americans in a way that it doesn’t treat anti-war protesters, for instance.
Again, I agree that these guys are kooks. But without an intelligent media to cover them as such, folks need to be on the ground pushing back.
I think the “Senior Citizens Can Drop Dead” sign was referring to her view of what Obama wants; in other words, he (allegedly) cares more about illegal aliens (“Senor Citizens”) than Senior Citizens. But I obviously can’t say for sure what she meant.
If you want to protest our protesting go right ahead. you have every right to
Rats, beaten by a zombie!
Check this KOS diary about an effective shut-down (or shut-up) of the astroturf protesters:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/4/761608/-Tea-Baggers-FAIL-to-disrupt-Health-Care-meeting,-lessons-shared.
I think the “Senior Citizens Can Drop Dead” sign was referring to her view of what Obama wants; in other words, he (allegedly) cares more about illegal aliens (”Senor Citizens”) than Senior Citizens. But I obviously can’t say for sure what she meant.
Ah. I missed that. Morans are usually not so subtle.
Hey, Andy? Can I ask you something, since you’re so certain single payer coverage would kill this country’s citizens?
Where are the masses of senIor citizens who are up in arms protesting government interference and their inability to get treatment from the physician of their choice?
Oh. Right. There aren’t any…
Andrew, not Andy, sorry, Andy.
Oh, THANK you, sir. We weren’t going to do ANYTHING without first making sure we had your APPROVAL.
But without an intelligent media to cover them as such, folks need to be on the ground pushing back.
I quite agree. IMO, the best thing to do would be to have a very civilized, terse, and punchy sign or slogan shirt that could show up well on camera and which would make your argument without your having to shout. (My voice is very quiet anyway, so I always lose shouting matches – plus in this case, when the shouting starts, things have already gone to hell).
Trouble is, what do you say? I suck at brevity. How do you say “Teabaggers – you’re the insurance industry’s bitch” classily and wittily?
actor212 — and what drives me nuts is that single payer isn’t even on the table. The right has succeeded in getting us to debate something that hasn’t even been proposed.
I called a few legislators on this issue. Luckily, I own property in 2 states and thus have the luxury of haranging multiple sets of the lobbyist lobby (AKA, the Congress)
Due to the voting in 2008, only one of them is of the Criminalus Republicanus species. I got a reply in email from him, no less. It stated his “philosophical” opposition to public healthcare.
Now I need to start calling his office 3x a day demanding he be a co-signer of the Weiner bill to outlaw Medicare – otherwise he will be a hypocrite.
they are in britain and canada, where they have single payer and the elderly aren’t given the quality of care they receive here. The can’t even get breast cancer drugs in britain.
@You Can’t Put Lipstick On A Repig — part of my frustraton is that I live in Massachusetts, which is a sane state with people who are all on board with reform. Ergo, I must travel to New Hampshire to get involved in town hall counter-protests.
they are in britain and canada, where they have single payer and the elderly aren’t given the quality of care they receive here.
1.) The government pays for care the elderly receive here
2.) Life expectancy is still longer in the UK and Canada
How do these guys get taken seriously by anyone? They have no arguments.
No problem, actor212. Perhaps if this other fellow keeps posting I should change my nym to “Andy (not Andrew has not)”, although that’s a bit unwieldy. Well I don’t post much anyway, so it may not be a big deal.
Trouble is, what do you say? I suck at brevity. How do you say “Teabaggers – you’re the insurance industry’s bitch” classily and wittily?
I would love to attend one of these meetings dressed like the Billionaires For Bush, holding a sign reading “Stop Public Healthcare – Insurance Company Executives Need Bigger Yachts”
There is nothing in the world I value beyond money.
part of my frustraton is that I live in Massachusetts, which is a sane state with people who are all on board with reform. Ergo, I must travel to New Hampshire to get involved in town hall counter-protests.
I read in a post on Kos about activism that you should pester them anyway because then they will be more vociferous in their support.
Andy (not Andrew has not)
Although it has a certain New Wave feel to it.
they are in britain and canada, where they have single payer and the elderly aren’t given the quality of care they receive here. The can’t even get breast cancer drugs in britain.I love rich HMO CEOs and want them to be richer. I am a tool.
———-
Fixed your post again, Andrew.
they are in britain and canada, where they have single payer and the elderly aren’t given the quality of care they receive here. The can’t even get breast cancer drugs in britain.
Oh really?
So the second largest killer of people on the planet, and you mean the elderly in Britain get inadequate care and can’t get the drugs for it?
So tell me…why are breast cancer death rates STILL HIGHER HERE, moran?
they are in britain and canada
…and the North, East , south and west. Somewhat.
actor212 — and what drives me nuts is that single payer isn’t even on the table. The right has succeeded in getting us to debate something that hasn’t even been proposed.
It ought to be the only option on the table. Healthcare is part of “life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness” and if the government provides free criminal defense (“liberty”), it ought to provide healthcare as well.
The only way to “counteract wingnut madness” is to game the game. Show up en masse as seeming supporters of the ‘baggers, out-nut the nutters by ratcheting up the crazy to new heights of bat shittery, and then sit back and watch the blowback.
“Andy (not Andrew has not)”
It IS kind of reminiscent of “Was (Not Was)” (but were they really New Wave)?
The can’t even get breast cancer drugs in britain.
I SO fucking call bullshit on that one.
Show up en masse as seeming supporters of the ‘baggers, out-nut the nutters by ratcheting up the crazy to new heights of bat shittery
I don’t think it’s possible to out-crazy the infinitely crazy.
Christ, Andy, when it takes me THIRTY FUCKING SECONDS with Wikipedia to disprove you, why should we take anything you say seriously?
From Teh Wikipedia, from the article on paclitaxel, better known as “taxol”:
Paclitaxel is approved in the UK for ovarian cancer, breast cancer, lung cancer. It is also used in the treatment of Kaposi’s sarcoma.[32] It is recommended in NICE guidance of June 2001 that it should be used for non-small cell lung cancer in patients unsuitable for curative treatment, and in first-line and second-line treatment of ovarian cancer. In September 2001 NICE recommended that paclitaxel should be available for the treatment of advanced breast cancer after the failure of anthracyclic chemotherapy, but that its first-line use should be limited to clinical trials. In September 2006 NICE recommended that paclitaxel should not be used in the adjuvant treatment of early node-positive breast cancer.[33]
The cost to the NHS per patient in early breast cancer, assuming four cycles of treatment, is about $6000.[34]
Are you always this much of a fucking lying shit-jacking douchebag, or are you trying particulary hard today?
why not just stand in the audience with a laugh-track on tape at the ready
A fellow on another board I go to bought himself a slide whistle for stuff like this. He recommended making the extra investment in a quality all-metal one.
Andy, more like Joy Division or something.
It’s like poor French translation nihilism, or something.
Good name for a drummer.
Just Stoopit, Pere Ubu.
Occam’s Razor and all.
Pere — and again, what makes it so annoying is we’re not even going to have single payer in this country. I could see him lying about single payer if we were really talking about single payer, but we ain’t. He’s lying about proposals that aren’t even there.
It IS kind of reminiscent of “Was (Not Was)” (but were they really New Wave)?
Sadly, No.
I could see him lying about single payer if we were really talking about single payer, but we ain’t.
And the only reason we can’t talk about it is lying cretinous glibertarian fucksticks like Lyin’ Andy screech and wail about SOOOOOOCYALISM every time we try.
God knows it’d make billing health care SO much easier, at the very least.
It’s all about the FUD. Fear. uncertainty, doubt. They thrive on it. It’s the only thing in their shriveled lives that makes them happy.
Oh, and don’t forget that you have Harvard faculty writing op-eds in national newspapers intentionally conflating single-payer (which Obama favors but has not proposed) and British-style nationalized health care (which Obama neither favors nor has proposed).
So Obama is proposing a moped but thinks a car would be better, and newspapers of record are publishing people who are claiming this means what he’s proposing is an Abrams tank.
The Democrats have been weak on their messaging for health care — partly because the plan they’re offering is watered down in the first place, and partly because a significant minority faction of their party is concerned that keeping poor people and minorities from dying of preventable disease might be bad for business, and are calling for the moped to be replaced by a “compromise” of a Hot Wheel taped to a plate. And that’s not even considering the Republicans, of course.
But, to be honest, I’m not sure the Democrats’ messaging matters, because the media is falling over itself to depict hordes of dimwitted glibbering dittoheads as principled libertarians concerned about fiscal prudence and freedom of choice.
And I guarantee you — no matter how numerous and presentable the people standing for health care reform are, the narrative will always be that they’re a handful of sinister flag-burning Utne-reading multilingual probable-Jew metrosexual Chomskyite college students taking a short break from their scheduled orgies with wan boys to reach out one pink, pallid finger and giggle girlishly at the beefy Real True Christian Americans who are just concerned for America.
An Abrams Tank of Health Care would make short work of the Insurance-Medical complex, one would think.
You say that as if it’s a BAD thing.
Ergo, I must travel to New Hampshire to get involved in town hall counter-protests.
Tell me about it. Per the link, I have to go to Columbus. OHIO. Feel my pain.
Per the link, I have to go to Columbus. OHIO. Feel my pain.
None closer to me than Colorado.
If I have to travel anyway, maybe I should just go to the one in Hawaii.
In September 2006 NICE recommended that paclitaxel should not be used in the adjuvant treatment of early node-positive breast cancer.[33]
you disproved yourself
It ought to be the only option on the table. Healthcare is part of “life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness” and if the government provides free criminal defense (”liberty”), it ought to provide healthcare as well.
You still have to pay for the lawyer provided, ~$200 in most counties
When you give more power to government you lose liberties.
Should the government provide cars too? day care for our children?(oh wait they already do with public education) should they give us food, a house to live in? we cant live without food, cant get to work without a car, cant work if we have to stay home and watch our children.
Show me one man dying in the street in America because he can’t pay for treatment and i will go for single payer. The fact is you will get treated, but you will have to pay the bill.
learn some frickin html, idiot. your grammatical FAIL is hard to read at best, when you can’t figure out how to make quotes apparent it just sounds like so much gibberish. MORE like gibberish, anyway.
When you give more power to government you lose liberties.
Show me ONE INSTANCE of you objecting to the trampling of the Bill of Rights in the last 8 years and you can talk, assmunch.
You still have to pay for the lawyer provided, ~$200 in most counties
Again, do you have NO experience in real life? lawyers bill STARTING at 2 bills per hour. A half hour of a real estate attorney in my city was $350.
Apologies to the regulars for engaging the troll. I’ve been drinking.
Badgers for Andrew has not
I got yer one dude dying for lack of health care RIGHT HERE.
I’m talking about the criminal defense attorney that the several towns around me provides when you cannot represent yourself and pay for a lawyer. Its about $200 for all the work, the one thats provided for you still costs you, and you get a shoddy lawyer.
dying for lack of healthcare but still have the money for a computer and internet?
You’re right PATRIOT ACT did invade our civil liberties, but the Dems didnt do anything to stop it either, save a few that called terrorist sympathizers. The left had no hard stance against the war until it became popular to be against it.
(all emphasis mine)
Just a few selected quotes from the consultations into whether paclitaxel should be used.
But of course ‘Andrew has not’ knows better than The Royal College of Nursing, The Royal College of Physicians (all raving marxists I’m sure) and the British Oncology Pharmacy Association.
The Royal College of Humourless Dildoes declined to comment.
But what would I know about my own health service when a dancing badger thousands of miles away who has been let out on day release claims to know better?
Yes, or the equivalent thereof. See, there’s these really big cars that hold a lot of people. They drive a lot of people to work every day in a lot of cities! They’re often paid for by the government. They’re called “buses.”
And then sometimes we take the wheels off these big cars and put them on metal rails, and call them “trains”. Those don’t go as many places, but they carry more people more quickly.
One of the benefits of public education is definitely that it gives parents more time to engage in pursuits other than constant childrearing, but I agree that we should subsidize day care even before school age!
Yes! A lot of cities and states have programs to help feed people who are hungry, especially children and single mothers. But the government and private charity both do a lot to help people who need food find it. There’s always more work to be done on improving public nutrition, but I’m sure glad we’re not just ignoring the problem!
Absolutely! Although some areas have administered subsidized housing poorly and in a way that promotes crime and disuse, other public housing projects have been successful in the primary goal of keeping families off the streets! The streets are a dangerous place to live, and many people who’d never have expected to be homeless have found themselves there. To bring this back to our original topic, sometimes unbearable health care costs are what drive families out of their homes.
You’re right! Thanks for your concise and accurate argument in favor of the welfare state!
Having known people who died of treatable chronic illnesses because they were unable to pay for ongoing treatment, or people who committed suicide because of untreated mental illness, I’d just like to extend you a hearty offer to go fuck yourself!
Sorry for feeding the trolls, everyone, but this is just too precious:
There’s these great places called libraries! They contain a lot of books which you can read for free! Also, they generally have computers, free for the public to use, which have Internet connectivity!
They’re paid for by the government!
The left had no hard stance against the war until it became popular to be against it.
Yeah, all those millions of people demonstrating against it in the run up were just a coincidence.
The Left is Norbizness, you choad, not Democrats.
Seriously, you’re so fulla shit you squeak.
Shit, you talk about the 200 buck nominal fee charged for an attorney, when attorney fees are much more than that for an hour of time, like that’s some meaningful rebuttal. I’m sure if you poll the people around here, most would admit that public representation in this country is woeful, mainly because cobags like you refuse to think it’s worthwhile to fund. Even though, from your wisdom of 18 years, you fear that your taxes may go up about ZERO FUCKING PERCENT to pay for it.
It’s all about the fear that someone darker than you might be the recipient of some level of services, isn’t it? Opposition to Universal Health Care, opposition to mass transit, opposition to stimulus spending…. It’s all just base jealousy and hatred, isn’t it?
Don’t bother answering.
Breast Cancer Treatment Denied
Prostate Cancer Treatment Denied
Kidney Cancer treatment denied
Rationing of Pricey Drugs By NICE
“My colleagues in Paris can use drugs freely, but I can’t do it here because they haven’t been approved (for government payment),” said Dr. Karl Sikora, an oncologist and medical director of Cancer Partners UK.
It truely sucks that you have lost loved ones, but what will stop the government from not being able to pay for these treatments?
what will stop the government from not being able to pay for these treatments?
Massive tax raises on the rich.
Duh, walked into that one.
Amazing how Andrew The Lying Shit has moved from an absolute “can’t even get breast cancer drugs in britain” to “some drugs are not recommened at some stages of some cancers” to “health care has been rationed by the evil gummint”. Goalposts – whizzzz!
And for that matter, Andrew The Dumbass Who Has No Idea What He’s Talking About in Heath Care, I’ll be sure to go and petition my local insurance companies about “rationing”, which is exactly what they do every time I make a claim for a drug and they come back requiring “prior authorization”.
But sheee-yit, it’s a PRIVATE rationing for profit, so there you go.
JESUS! And the fucking Telegraph article isn’t even about drugs, much less “breast cancer drugs”, but about ultrasound treatments! Dumbass.
“disproved myself” my fucking pink heinder, you lying shit.
Xecky, you may not have had the stomach for following the linkys provided by the asshole, but reading them, it had little to do with costs. The “Rationing” trope was inserted by the Mail or Telegraph, and no real support for that idea was shown.
There seemed to be other reasons for the change in policy on certain procedures. which of course, never ever ever happens in the Insurance-Industrial Complex. Never. Nuh-uh.
But I fully support tagging the heirs of Sam Walton to pay for breast cancer drugs.
I would like to see each of the politicians hosting one of these Townhalls stand up at the start and read out the leaked lobbyist memo on how to disrupt Townhall meetings and then give a little speach about Democracy. It might take a little tea out of their bags.
The fact is you will get treated, but you will have to pay the bill.
Yes, and for single payer it will be a less expensive bill than the current system.
The NHS is not a single-payer system. It is a national health system. They are very different. Anecdotes about the failings of the NHS are irrelevant to the argument over a single-payer or public-option system, just like the failings of the VA (a nationalized health system) are meaningless in evaluating Medicare (a national insurance system).
Also, it seems counterproductive to argue against single-payer by quoting a British doctor suggesting the French system is better, because the French system is a national insurance system very similar to Medicare.
Less expensive for the person that never paid to begin with
more expensive for tax payers
why are you all so trusting of the government to take care of your lives? are you not the most qualified person to do so? wouldnt you be able to afford these treatments if you didnt have to pay 40-60% in income tax?
wouldnt you be able to afford these treatments if you didnt have to pay 40-60% in income tax?
No, and neither would you.
It’s kind of the point of risk pooling. Look it up, piefilter.
Xecky, you may not have had the stomach for following the linkys provided by the asshole, but reading them, it had little to do with costs.
Aha, OK.
I have to admit my whole purpose with that comment was just trying to wind up the troll to LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLing again. That was fun.
so what do you do to people that smoke or are obese or are underwieght or dont practice safe sex, or any other number of choice related illnesses?
will the government dictate what we eat now too?
there will be leeches when you have anything free and it will drain the system
Personally, I trust Regence to take care of my life. They make great decisions for me, like how I really only need to see my psychiatrist once or twice a month regardless of my mental state, and that a 10-year-old anticonvulsant which is the only medication that’s treated my chronic mental illness really isn’t worth covering. In addition, they made the very correct choice that an eyeglass material necessary to reduce glare enough for me to work and make a living really wasn’t worth the expenditure, either.
I’d go to another insurer to see how well they take care of my life, but it turns out that since I’ve got pre-existing conditions I either have to pay roughly a quarter of my take-home pay on premiums or find another job with a different health plan. That makes a lot of sense! I think it’d be a terrible idea for Obama to regulate health care so that people like me can actually afford to choose which plan works best for us.
This is all a lot better than a public plan which isn’t permitted to refuse payment based on profit margin. That would be communism and would allow the government to put a camera in my room.
No! Thanks for asking!
Hee Hee, trolly boy.
I provide World renowned medical bodies and you provide the Daily Mail?
The FUCKING DAILY MAIL??
The FUCKING ‘HURRAH FOR THE BLACKSHIRTS’ DAILY MAIL??
The FUCKING HITLER SUPPORTING DAILY MAIL??
The URGING PEOPLE TO JOIN OSWALD MOSELY DAILY MAIL??
Priceless, absolutely priceless!
more expensive for tax payers
aaaaaaannnnnnnnd…… FAIL.
all the data, as well as common fucking sense, shows that a system with a useless layer of insurance bureacracy is more expensive than one without. every other country, that doesn’t have an Insurance-Industrial Complex tacking 30 percent onto every charge, delivers better longevity and satisfaction than the American Way.
The highest levels of satisfaction with the American Way are registered by people being served by Medicare, veterans… and Member of Congress. All recipients of Government Run Health Care.
we cover them. Just like every civilized country in the world. Stop peeing in your pants, Mary.
Private health care is robbing you blind. Everyone who’s ever worked in a fucking hospital knows this – because insurers have economies of scale, you’re either going to have one super-insurer or a handful of big insurers. It’s often all the state can do in a private healthcare system to keep fastidious little asshole accountants from collectively denying coverage to fatasses, diabetics, and Jews.
Single payer involves, at the very least, making those fastidious little asshole accountants answerable to the people. It works; for all the talk by your wonderful corporate masters about rationing and waiting lists, anyone who has worked for a living has dealt with private rationing and private waiting lists – it’s called high copays and pre-existing condition checks. At least a public bureaucracy has to ration care for good reasons – in a private system it’s rationed based on how rich you are. Which works great if you can afford to sink seven figures into emergency care, but for the other 299,990,000 of us, not so much!
25% < 40%
your vision insurance is irrelevant, it has nothing to do with healthcare.
I guess I am to blame for your ailments and I deserve to pay for your problems.
or you could just try some charities that are more than willing to help you…
“Single-payer health insurance” is what we’re discussing here. I think you missed a right turn at Nuremburg.
Incidentally, because you’re evidently a great big Look Out Here Comes Number One guy, one of the results of the state-sanctioned private insurance racket has been that American cities are cesspools of disease without parallel in the first world. We’re just about rock bottom when it comes to preventative care, and preventative care is what prevents epidemics.
And last I checked, you couldn’t really buy your way out of an influenza pandemic. Nor can you buy your way out of the pervasive seasonal and cyclical illnesses in the US – even in the absence of a pandemic, you wind up with conditions so foul that an office we would consider normal and functional is regarded as a public health hazard in Europe.
Even divorced from any of that faggoty concern for other people, private insurance makes your care more expensive and means that you’re going to get sicker more often and have a better chance of catching something lethal. You don’t live in a vacuum.
I guess I am to blame for your ailments and I deserve to pay for your problems.
you already do, whether you’re willing to admit it or not.
Insurance premiums are based on overall risk. This includes emergency and non-covered care. These costs are passed on through premiums, either to you or your employer, who passes them on to you through NOT PAYING YOU MORE.
The only difference is, with private insurance, a surcharge of 20-30 percent is added to these costs, so the executives at the insurance company can buy tits for their mistresses.
I was allowed 9 doses of a certain medicine this past month, though I switched to the generic and the prescription was written for 12. If I run out before the month is up, which is virtually guaranteed based on long history, I am TSOL, they will not refill the prescription early, even though they allowed me fewer than the doctor determined I need in the first place. Thank goodness I don’t live someplace where health care is rationed!
Oh, and dipshit. Because I would hate to have one of my troll comments not have some incivility.
It is astonishing, the extent to which dweebs like this are willing to undercut their own fucking best interest because some rich asshole tells them to.
private insurance makes your care more expensive and means that you’re going to get sicker more often and have a better chance of catching something lethal.
But but but – our way, insurance CEOs get more money. How much plainer does it need to be for you libs?
I am TSOL
tigrismus is True Sounds Of Liberty?
Sorry, I loved those guys. Best of luck tig.
Taxes pay for other things than health care! I also don’t pay 40% of my income in taxes! In addition to that, take-home pay already has taxes deducted — so in reality, the question is whether public health care can be provided without taxing me for an additional 25% of my income. It can!
Last time I checked, eyes were part of the body. And corrective eyepieces were prescribed by doctors as treatment for a disorder of the eyes. Just because our defective health care system has chosen to treat the teeth, eyes, and mind separately from the rest of the body doesn’t mean that it makes sense.
Charity can’t even provide health care for the mass of people who don’t have insurance. Why would they provide it for someone who’s lucky enough to have even substandard insurance?
Actually, I pay taxes! So I’d be paying for my own ailments, because I can afford to do so! Paying for basic services for those who cannot afford them by taking from those who can is of benefit to everyone, because I live in a society with those people. Similarly, I help pay for roads, police services, fire services, and public works because they benefit me regardless of my personal use of them. It is of benefit to me for fires to be put out and crime to be prevented. It’s also of benefit to me for the people I depend on and live with to be healthy, well-educated, and safe.
Paying for basic services for those who cannot afford them by taking from those who can is of benefit to everyone, because I live in a society with those people. Similarly, I help pay for roads, police services, fire services, and public works because they benefit me regardless of my personal use of them. It is of benefit to me for fires to be put out and crime to be prevented. It’s also of benefit to me for the people I depend on and live with to be healthy, well-educated, and safe.
Holy hell, it would be of tremendous value to make all the wingnuts play SimCity just to learn this shit.
Of course, the first thing they would do is learn the cheat codes so they have unlimited funding. Kind of the conservative answer to everything. Be rich.
Healthcare is kind of like sanitation – the best way to do it would be either public (directly run by a government bureacracy) or quasi-public (service-based corporate charter, taxpayer subsidies and stringent oversight for inevitable overruns). Yes, both ways require you to pay taxes for services for other people. I suppose, in theory, you could even save a few hundred bucks by living in a system where private sanitation providers charge a market-determined rate for hookups and maintenance. You might even get better personal sanitation service that way.
Of course, you’ll be living and working in human shit, but rational actors have to act in their own financial self-interest, right? You call it Escherichia coli O157:H7, I call it freedom.
I just can’t believe that conservatives are giving any kind of a shit about health care when the exemplar of Wholesome Family Values Marriage itself is threatened.
“Affairs on both sides” “serving papers to a blogger at a kindergarten”
…. fuck that, health care is more important.
Awww, who am I kidding? health care is reform, it’s a sex scandal!! BarkBarkBarkBark!!
Health care is over rather. Zombie has had a long day.
it’s a sex scandal!! BarkBarkBarkBark!!
That’s what I’m hoping to stir up in my little way, to get the troofies to watch the shiny thing and let us get on with bizness.
Even if, here, our bizness is to say POOP.
Someone upthread was wondering what bumper-sticker-length slogan could be put on a sign, shirt, etc. to parody the Teabaggers. I suggest something along the lines of:
“I DEMAND the right to gamble my home and life savings on the slim chance that I’ll never get sick!!!!”
Or perhaps:
“My family’s financial welfare: meaningless compared to health insurance executive’s rights to own multiple vacation homes.”
You get the drift.
Or we could simplify it to the lowest common denominator:
“I don’t want no affordable heathcare. I are STOOPID.”
so what do you do to people that smoke or are obese or are underwieght or dont practice safe sex, or any other number of choice related illnesses?
Two words for ya, Chimneyboy:
Soylent. Green.
MUAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!
why are you all so trusting of the government to take care of your lives? are you not the most qualified person to do so?
Nope. My doctor is. I’d no more do my own medical diagnoses than cut my own hair, fix my own car, or build my own house. We hire experts who know what to do and what to look for.
Unfortunately, my doctor’s hands are tied by the HMO bureaucracy…the government can’t, by the Constitution, do that.
Show me one man dying in the street in America because he can’t pay for treatment and i will go for single payer.
Come to NY. They’re called “homeless”, many of whom lost their homes after filing bnakruptcy because…say it with me now, class…THEY COULDN’T AFFORD MEDICAL CARE, you arrogant turd! (the single biggest cause of bankruptcy)
Kind of the conservative answer to everything. Be rich.
What, like it’s hard? You poor people just LIKE being poor, and God knows I’m not going to help you with any “alternative” lifestyles. Get a job, smelly homeless man! Then maybe you can pay to have that open sore treated, because it’s really gross and icky.
Show me one man dying in the street in America because he can’t pay for treatment and i will go for single payer.
12 year old Deamonte Driver of Prince George’s County died in March of 2007 from an infection caused by an abcessed tooth. His family couldn’t afford the $80 it would have taken to extract the tooth. By the time the infection spread to his brain and emergency services stepped in, it was too late to save his life.
And for the cost/benefit analysts out there; the $250,000 that the surgery cost the county would have paid for 3125 tooth extractions
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/27/AR2007022702116.html
So Andrew – I expect to see your defence of single-payer posted here in the morning
I’m surprised that “Andrew Has No Brains” hasn’t trotted out the “Are there no emergency rooms?” argument as a way of saying that we already have universal health care in this country. Of course, those emergency rooms are staffed by elves who work around the clock for no pay and don’t need to eat, so it’s all good.
commie, he did. He said everyone gets treated but they have to pay for it eventually. Of course, to make a rational decision to use expensive emergency room services requires self-diagnosis — if you’re having chest pain, for instance, it might be just a minor problem not deserving of emergency care or a condition requiring immediate care. Going to the emergency room in that case is a significant gamble and harms the health care system.
Andrew: but he didn’t die in the street!
What is this issue people have with ‘choice-related illness’? We cover them, fucking period. Case closed, mission complete. Fat guys get coverage, underweight girls get coverage, smokers get coverage, the frat boy with the clap gets coverage.
They’re fucking human beings! Do you want them to die? Is your money so absolutely important to you that you can’t even stand funding help for these people from a pool of another thirty million or so fellow citizens?
Fuck, we’ve been paying taxes for your little imperialist jaunts into Latin America, Southeast Asia and the Middle East for nearly seventy years now, the least you can do is back us the fuck up when we’re out to help you survive the flu you’re going to get.
Oh, but I forget, government can’t do it right. We have to trust the Great Men of Business to innovate and whatever.
Because private mercenaries have worked out so well for us on your endeavors, so why not trust them to the health care industry as well.
—
And I agree with actor. I’m a fucking incompetent at deciding my own health decisions. That’s why when a doctor informs you of your rights as a patient, so as to make an “informed decision”, they’re usually dumbing it way the fuck down for you. Because unless you’ve studied medicine for several years, then had hands-on experience with the infinite amount of failures to treat and so on, you will not understand what is going on.
You are an idiot. I’m not saying that to be insulting (in this instance), I’m saying it because it’s true.
Those advertisements with the sad rock, telling you to “ask your doctor” doesn’t mean you’re being imbued with the medical knowledge to know what that fucking pill is going to do.
Because private mercenaries have worked out so well for us on your endeavors, so why not trust them to the health care industry as well.
Hrm, I just thought of something. This has the making of a good bumper sticker. Obviously shortened, and dumbed down considerably but…
“Would you trust your health to Blackwater?”
I think it has a nice ring to it.
About those parody teabagger signs, the ultimate shorter would be:
DURRRRR!!!
Late to the party – I was camping (the rich man’s homelessness) – but on this ‘choice-related illnesses’ line of claptrap from ‘andrew not was’ … it’s also the case that us extreme smoking, drinking overeating, people-fucking whatevers tend to die younger than the sexless scolds and whatnot, so we’re LESS a burden on the system in that way. And it all evens out — the sexless scolds are going to die some day too, costing the collective a fair bit of coin, too … we just have the grace to get out of the way sooner, plus we’re more fun to be around while we’re still kicking.
Usually the level of debate here is pretty high — witty and intelligent — and I find it a little intimidating. But thanks to the trolls for lowering the bar on this post; I feel emboldened.
I grew up in the states. When I was a kid, my mother died unexpectedly, although not so unexpectedly that she didn’t require a week or so of very expensive intensive care and surgery. The resulting debt was a burden to my father for the rest of his life, and irremediably corrupted relationships within the rest of the family.
Here in Canada, a few years ago, my ex-wife nearly died from a very rare, very nasty, and very hard-to-diagnose heart condition. I think that had we been Americans, she would have died. I know for certain that had she survived, during the weeks she was in hospital I would have spent half my days dealing with hospital administrators, bankers, distant family members, and God knows who else trying to come up with money, and we would have faced really terrible decisions over the level of treatment we could afford.
As it was, she got the best possible treatment. Period.
Her ailment is congenital, and it appears that our son has it, too. (Have I said that this condition just kills you dead, bang, in seconds, with absolutely no warning?) No expense, or medical consideration, or even human kindness, has been spared in treating him.
At the same time, don’t for a minute imagine that the big health care corporations, doctors who need for some reason to be even wealthier, our very own political whackjobs who equate liberty with the power to make unlimited amounts of money aren’t busy trying to chip away at what we’ve got. And, the system isn’t perfect.There are long waits for some kinds of surgery, shortages of doctors in some communities, and on and on. And you know, so what? It’s a big, complicated system; of course it’s not going to work perfectly.
But, basically, and here’s where I wish my wit would serve me better, when it comes down to the basic questions involved — of care, of service, of community responsibility — fuck you guys, you Americans, and your supposed debate on health care reform. Any comments above re the behaviour of a sane, or intelligent, polity I wholeheartedly second. And as much as I want to support the progressive views of posters and most commenters here, the whole thing is, well, just fucking pathetic. Too bad it matters so much in the lives of so many people.
I think this is where the entire ‘health rationing’ canard comes into play. I know a little about hospitals, so if we were to abstract your family’s problem into a tendency towards serious heart attacks you’d have a classic rationing problem: heart attacks can only be admitted to a certain class of hospital under normal circumstances (emergencies sometimes allow for them to be treated at underqualified ones, but planning is such that they should be uncommon).
Even if a state healthcare system didn’t result in a lot more hospitals and highly-qualified facilities being available (right now hospital placement is at least partially subject to a market based on economic efficiency, so having two big hospitals twenty minutes from each other is treated the same way as having two McDonalds Family Playhouses ten minutes from each other), the rationing in a state system is just better.
In a purely efficiency-of-care driven hospital, casual triage is the norm – so a trauma victim in stable condition might get admitted after a heart attack happening at the same time, and if there’s only enough room for one more patient they’ll take a severe infarction over a minor one and either over a certainly fatal one.
In a purely economic system, that doesn’t matter. And that’s how our system is supposed to be, because The Free Market Solves Everything. So instead of the ugly reality of triage in which occasionally people die who didn’t have to because otherwise more people would probably have perished, your care depends on how much you get wheeled into the ER with in your wallet.
Single-payer can take care of that, if managed tightly. So can a good national system. In a private system of any type, it doesn’t matter if you’ve got something uniformly survivable and the guy you’re competing for admission with is balls-deep in Saint Peter – if his credit, insurance, or cash on hand are better than yours, the snap decision favors him.
Hooray for the invisible hand!