I… Uhm… Oh-Kaaaaaay…

This column by Jane Jiminez of AgapePress stands as one of the weirdest things I’ve read since last week:

Kiss, Kiss, I Love You

By Jane Jimenez
September 15, 2005

Sitting in airport lounges for four months, I have been surrounded by human love in action.

This sounds pretty disturbing. When I want to see “human love in action,” I usually rent a video from my local adult film store. I certainly don’t sleep at airport terminals for four straight months hoping to catch people doing the nasty. Well, not anymore at least. See, after they left me out of the mental institution, I no longer felt the nee…

Oh wait, maybe that’s not what she’s referring to. Damn my perverted ass.

Cars driving up to the check-in curbside, trunk lids opening, bags being piled with sweaters … hugs, kisses and more hugs.

Travelers with time on their hands stroll through airport shops filled with scarves, stuffed toys, and boxes of chocolate, a perfect place to grab an offering for family waiting at home. I missed you.

And I missed you, Jane, but that doesn’t explain you were living in an airport terminal.

Mothers and fathers, like families of ducks, lead a trail of small children dragging midget rolling suitcases through the airport.

They’re dragging midgets through the airport??!! IN SUITCASES!??!? Lady, this isn’t some charming cutesy Norman Rockwell painting- get up from that pile of newspapers you’re sleeping on and call the police!

Blankets are spread on the floor, tired Teddy bears, mussed hair, fussy tears, and sleepy bundles … a mother leans over, I love you.

Aaaaaaw, how cute! (Of course, Jane edited that exchange a bit. The full quote is, “I love you… NOW SHADDUP SO WE CAN GET ON THE DAMN PLANE YA LITTLE BRAT!”)

Tonight as I sit waiting for the boarding call on my final flight home, I snatch time to call those I love. I leave a short message telephone for my daughter. I miss her. Can we meet for lunch when I get home this week? Love you, Mom.

I connect with my son 3,000 miles away. It’s great to hear your voice! He surprises me with news that he might be able to fly home to visit me in two weeks. My heart lifts.

OK, this is very sweet and touching and I’m not gonna make fun of it (though I’m sure Jane’s kids were surprised to learn that she’d been spending her nights sleeping on newspapers). Let’s skip to the weird-ass stuff:

What does this all have to do with sex and teaching abstinence until marriage?

What. The. Hell.

We were talking about how sweet it is seeing people say “I love you” to each other before leaving on jet planes (not sure when they’ll be back again), and you somehow managed to turn it into a discussion on ABSTINENCE-ONLY EDUCATION? Where’s the connection? Are you saying that if we don’t teach abstinence to our kids, they’ll become the type of sleazebags who propsition stewardesses for BJ’s in the bathroom stall? Or even worse, they’ll become like Gavin?

OK, Jane, now I’m really curious- what does saying “good-bye” to loved ones in the airport have to do with teaching abstinence. I really, really want to know.

Nothing. And everything.

Oh. Thanks for clearing that up.

Nothing — Kiss, kiss … I love you. So much love flows through an airport. Strands of love stretching around the globe renewed with simple hugs, short cell phone messages, and postcards carefully written over cups of coffee. No sex.

You’d freaking hope not! I’m pretty sure they have laws against doing that sort of thing in public! (Though it’s still not as bad as what those poor midgets in the suitcases were going through, and… hey, speaking of, did you call the police yet and tell them about the midgets? GODDAMNIT, WHY NOT?!? THE LITTLE GUYS ONLY HAD A LIMITED SUPPLY OF AIR!!! WHAT KIND OF CHRISTIAN ARE YOU!??!?!)

And everything. Abstinence until marriage is a message about the purity of love, a gift we can treasure and share anywhere at anytime with anyone.

Say, I never thought of it like that before! So the next time I strike out while hitting on some chick at the bar, I can rationalize it by saying, “Y’know what? I think I made a real connection with her. Plus, I gave her THE GIFT OF ABSTINENCE, which I can share with anyone at any time! And really, that gift is more important than… ah, who the fuck am I kidding. BARTENDER! GET ME ANOTHER STEEL RESERVE!”

Love without sex affirmed as supremely worthy is no small accomplishment in a society that has led young people to believe that, for love to matter, sex must be involved.

OK, that’s really fucking stupid. I love both of my parents, but there’s certainly no sex involved in my relationship with them (especially not at an airport). But if we’re talking about being with a potential significant other, OF COURSE sex is going to be involved! Even in the most hardcore Christian communities, the entire purpose of courtship is to prepare for marriage, which will eventually lead to procreation. And how does procreation happen? Ding! You guessed it! Through sex!

Returning home … my eyes hold back tears as I think of once again being able to talk and spend quiet moments with my husband.

Uh-huh. So that’s what they’re calling it nowadays!

It’s been a long summer of trips leaving home. Hotel rooms. Rental cars. Business meetings. Conferences.

Oh. I guess she wasn’t living at the airport after all. My bad.

Airports are places where goodbyes build opportunities for reflecting on what makes life worthwhile. One goodbye, a hug and a kiss, and love held pure over thousands of miles and hundreds of days because it lives in the heart. A truth about love worth remembering … and teaching.

And remember, kids- you can’t love someone if you screw them before marriage!


Comments: 77


I know that before my abstinence conditioning I had a lot more snatch time…


I love both of my parents, but there’s certainly no sex involved in that reliationship… Um, Brad there’s something I have to tell you about your parents and how you were conceived…..


Man oh man, did I give so many girls the gift of abstinence in my day! It was like I had a t-shirt that read “Cloister me for a good time!” Sheesh.


i could abstain from you all night, baby.


You guys are so lucky. I’m always at abrs trying to abstain with women, but they keep wanting to have sex with me! What’s y’all’s secret?!


So you can’t be in love unless you’re married? I’m so confused.

Nothing. And everything.
“Could you be a little more vague, please?”


not to mention – wasn’t the whole “all different types of love” set at an airport was so *done* in “Love, Actually” … don’t these people have ANY original thoughts?


Could you be a little more vague, please?
Yes. And no.


Yosef, try the Steel Reserve, works wonders.

Actually, the fact that she labels it “quiet moments” might explain our friend Jane’s lack of excitement about teh sex.


Um, Brad there’s something I have to tell you about your parents and how you were conceived…..

Actually, I was the first-ever child to be conceived via the stork. Plus, I did a shit job of proofreading. (will fix)


Actually, the fact that she labels it “quiet moments” might explain our friend Jane’s lack of excitement about teh sex.

LOL. O, we are terrible 🙂


-insert ‘meaning of life’ sketch here-


Damn, if only this article had been available to me 12 years ago. I wouldn’t have had sex with my girlfriend, we wouldn’t have dated for 5 years, and we wouldn’t be celebrating our 7th year of wedded bliss next month. Oh well, too late now.


And really, that gift is more important than… ah, who the fuck am I kidding. BARTENDER! GET ME ANOTHER STEEL RESERVE!”

WAIT A MINUTE – there’s a bar that serves steel reserve?!?! i thought pabst was as low as it got in public. lead me to this bar!


I am not a theologian. I’ve taken only a few theology courses—just enough to render me a danger on the topic. However, I am told that Agape is a Greek term for a spiritual love—the kind offered by Jesus, the kind that goes beyond the expectation of anything selfish in return. It is the kind that lends itself to genuine intimacy. Unfortunately, it is the kind that few of us get, and that few of us know how to give. Like the Bee Gees once said in a hit song, “Nobody gets too much heaven no more, it’s as high as a mountain, and harder to climb…” It is the type of love that should, ideally, allow right-wingers and left-wingers to become good friends. In short, Agape love is better than great sex.


WAIT A MINUTE – there’s a bar that serves steel reserve?!?! i thought pabst was as low as it got in public. lead me to this bar!

Sadly, I was only joking 🙁


In short, Agape love is better than great sex.

And while I’m sure that’s absolutely the truth, it doesn’t mean they’re mutually exclusive.


OK, that’s really fucking stupid. I love both of my parents, but there’s certainly no sex involved in my relationship with them (especially not at an airport).

Besides, sex in airports with your parents is sooooooo passe at this point, anyway


Well, let’s not forget the title of Dr. BLT’s debut single, “Great Sex Can Ruin Your Life.”


I can’t beliebe Brad R. had to learn on the internets of his parents’ debauchery. I of course was born of Agape love.


I can see where the sandwich doctor is going with this, he wants someone to start fantasising about how sex can be given as an unselfish gift, even to people like, say, Dinkle the Unlovable Loser … anyone who thinks he can prove the sandwich doctor wrong by suggesting this is falling into a terrible dialectical snare …


Rowan, did I forget to say “easy on the mayo”?


Brad, thanks for the plug, would you like to become my agent? I’m getting sick and tired of being accused of engaging in shameless self-promotion.


Guys, I’m a little nervous to admit this, but heck, we’re all friends here, and this is a private place, nobody else is gonna see this, right?

I have this little problem with both potence and premature abstinence. I’ll be having a quiet moment with some girl, but when the time comes to hold back and not have sex, half the time I just can’t get it down, and then when I finally manage to, it only lasts for 30 seconds or so… and then we’re back at it, humping like crazed weasels.

The girls are really nice about it at first. They tell me “That’s OK, it happens to lots of guys. We’ll take a little break and try not to have sex a little later.” But I can see the disappointment in their flushed cheeks and hear the contempt in their post-coital heavy breathing.

What’s a guy to do?


You could maybe not shamelessly self-promote. Then again, it worked for blog-whore Pinko, it could work for you.

Otherwise, I’d just like to point that the word Agape is the title of the publishing company and had nothing to do with the article we’re discussing (in that the author never mentions it).

And if we want to be needlessly philosophical I like the idea of love-in-action as some crazy Heideggarian ontology. We could do something with that, i think.


Sorry, Rowan.. Gotsta do this!

Its obvious then, that you have never had great sex!

I felt great after doing my small part to help the victims of Katrina. So great, that my girlfriend and I went to a bar, started buying tequila shooters for ourselves and this hot little UNLV student. The sex the three of us had that night was pure heaven!!!

By the way, doc, she (the UNLV student) claimed to be be a sexaholic; maybe I should send her your way so you can do your head-shrinking magic on her…..

Then again maybe not, her gift of sex knowledge and experience is way too valuable to throw away.


(P.S. again I apologize to you Rowan for the above)


Actually, the fact that she labels it “quiet moments” might explain our friend Jane’s lack of excitement about teh sex.
I find myself imagining her husband wildly hitting it from behind while she brews some tea or does a crossword. You know, good christian wifely stuff.


What’s the matter with this woman that she’s never had sex in an airport? And WTF do sex and love have to do with one another anyway? While they’re certainly not mutually exclusive, they certainly not joined-at-the-hip either, so to speak. Why, the number of times I’ve had sex with people that I don’t even like probably outweighs the number of times most of you have had sex at all (yes, also not necessarily an ideal situation, but as people, they were somewhat useless; as sex-objects, they were physically attractive and skilled-it’s called making the best of lousy situations. or being a slut. but I don’t feel bad about it, ‘cos it worked out better than sitting around making catty remarks about each other).


I connect with my son 3,000 miles away. It’s great to hear your voice! He surprises me with news that he might be able to fly home to visit me in two weeks. My heart lifts[…]

…until he arrives home with a strange boy in tow. “Mom, this is my lover, Biff,” he exclaims. “He’s a dominant, verbal top.”
“Hi, Ms. Jimenez,” he says, extending a well-manicured hand. I recoil in horror….


“Nothing — Kiss, kiss … I love you. So much love flows through an airport. Strands of love stretching around the globe renewed with simple hugs, short cell phone messages, and postcards carefully written over cups of coffee. No sex.”

Four months in airports and she’s never heard of “the mile-high club”, “trolly dollies”, or “EF/FF?”


Dan Someone, I’m not talking in a professional capacity hear, but it’s my humble opinion that you just may be beyond psychotherapy. Try Agape love. Yes, fulsome, that’s the name of the publishing company, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that a company picks a name to reflect upon what it wants to represent, and the name should provide a hint as to what sort of articles it seeks out and ultimately publishes. This particular article seems to fit under the category of agape love. jeff-perado, I’ll ask you in another 20 years if you still consider what you’ve just described to fall under the category of “great sex”—that is if you’re still around to answer the question. All that glitters is not gold, my friend, unless we’re talking fool’s gold.


Since most of their articles are about hating homos, I would say they don’t have agape love. Sorry.


“Hi, Ms. Jimenez,” he says, extending a well-manicured hand. I recoil in horror….

Marq, ever see Angels in America? If so, doesn’t Jane remind you a wee bit of Meryl Streep’s character? (“This is my ex-lover’s lover’s mormon mother.”)


Dan Someone, I’m not talking in a professional capacity hear, but it’s my humble opinion that you just may be beyond psychotherapy. Try Agape love.

Dr. BLT, The Singing Troll, I’m not talking in a professional capacity here, but it’s my humble opinion that you just may be beyond belief. Try a sense of humor.


Dan Someone,

I feel so sorry for your problem. Could it be that you are going commando? Perhaps some wool underwear could help you.

OH MY GOD> Dr. BBMBLT (as Sprint/Nextel tells us the BLT should really be described) is going to go toe to toe with fulsome on philosophy. I’m gonna pull up a chair to the campfire and make some smores, cuz its gonna be a good time!

Now I know why my publishing company is call “Eat it COBAGZ!!!!”


What happened to the midgets?


People have their fetishes, but, sorry, Dr. Bacon, I draw the line well before A Gay Ape love.


I have this little problem with both potence and premature abstinence

Now that’s shameless self-promotion! In spades, baby!


Ok, what are “trolly dollies” and “EF/FF?”

Oh, and I gave the gift of abstinence to my entire high school! I think there’s a plaque for it now on an outside wall somewhere on the building.


Agape is a Greek term for a spiritual love […] the kind that goes beyond the expectation of anything selfish in return.

I thought that was “unrequited love.”


It’s called “not getting any”, anonymous.

Happens to the best of us from time to time. I’ve been in a dry spell myself for a couple of years now. Probably has something to do with working full time and going to school full time.

Some folks just find the easiest way to deal with the humiliation is to call it “agape”. I’m not going to burst their bubble. But it’s a sure sign of a fragile ego, I think.


Thank you, Brad, for giving me the (sex-free) gift of a good laugh. I’m not just saying this, it’s true: That was the best I’ve had all week.

P.S. I, too want to know what happened to the poor midgets….


I’m confused. I obviously don’t give my husband the gift of abstinence. I thought it wouldn’t be the kind of thing he would appreciate. But if it’s so awesome, then am I doing the wrong thing? Should I be giving my husband the gift of abstinence?


Beware greeks bearing trojans.

Pinko, you bring the Buber and I’ll bring the Sartre.


If a person has agape love, they will not condemn another person based upon his/her sexual orientation, even though they may have a moral opinion on the matter and may freely offer that opinion (minus the condemning attitude of course).

As far as sexual purity is concerned, no adult in this world can truly call him/herself sexually pure. Jesus said that when a man looks at a woman with lust, he has committed adultery in his heart. I don’t believe that by that statement, Jesus was condemning men who have harbored such thoughts. After all, which man, besides Jesus himself, has not? Even Jimmy Carter fell into this lustful lot. No, I believe that statement was intended for hypocrites. Still, I believe that truly great sex, (as opposed to the type of great sex I refer to in the song) is sex that is reserved for marraige. But the idea of delayed gratification is so foreign to us, that even the thought of delaying sex is mentally painful. I’ll be the first to admit that the idea of normal sex, with boundaries, with commitment, with morals, doesn’t sound very sexy and, quite frankly, the idea is not much of a turn on. Quite the opposite. It sounds rather repulsive. But what does that say about me? I have become the fool who can’t stand to look upon the sight of real gold but can’t wait to get my hands on the next piece of fool’s gold.


BLT, what about masturbation? everybody does it, some more than once a day (Yosef, I’m glancing at YOU) does that count? and people that say they don’t are lying. Jimmy Swaggart like to crank to a lady of the evening and then cry, is that so wrong? What if they feel bad afterwards, or sleepy?


Although there is a case for sayintg that Aleister Crowley laid an important part of the mass psychological ground work for the zionist fascism we are now suffering from, his “Liber Agape” is entertaining, precisely due to his blasphemous desire to spatter the memory of christ with sexual innuendo: “Pitiful and of tender love, hath He revealed unto the wise men of old time, the Way of this Attainment. The
Gnostics and Manichees preserved it in their most secret assemblies as they had received it from the greatest of the Magi of Egypt; nor were the Ophites ignorant of this mystery, nor the men that did worship unto Mithras, and the secret is hidden in the fable of Samson; Our Lord Jesus Christ established it through the mouth of the Beloved Disciple…” you can guess the rest …


But the idea of delayed gratification is so foreign to us, that even the thought of delaying sex is mentally painful.

In my day, they called that being a tease. Go figure.

I’ll be the first to admit that the idea of normal sex, with boundaries, with commitment, with morals, doesn’t sound very sexy and, quite frankly, the idea is not much of a turn on.

Now that’s a crying shame. Seriously. I think normal sex with my husband is incredibly hot. Just thinking about it turns me on, so I try not to do it at work. In the car, on the other hand…good thing I drive stick. Maybe I’m just lucky in that I find my husband sexier all the time, and that he feels the same way. The myth that married sex will be boring was jettisoned a long time ago – way before I let him chase me to the alter. I figured that if my parents kept doing it (and 5 kids proved it had to be pretty interesting), then there must be something there.

Maybe if you’d were a little more inclined to explore gratification before heading to the alter, it wouldn’t have turned out that way for you. It wouldn’t even have been necessary to get naked. If they can’t rock your world with a kiss, they probably aren’t going to be what you want in bed. You don’t need to keep the car overnight to know whether or not it’s fun to drive…


Aaaaarrrrgh. Bad Reba. No closing tag! If one of the fine, strapping lads here can clean that up for me, I’d be grateful. It’s embarassing.


Pinko, you’ve made some valid points and I can’t really argue with you, Rebo, more power to you for being so normal and loving every minute of it. Rowan, I kind of see where you’re going—right off the deep end, if I’m not mistaken. Of course I could be mistaken. Prove me wrong.


Dr. BLT, you asked which man, besides Jesus, has not looked at a woman with lust. Umm…you do DO know about GAY MEN, don’t you? As for the claim that the best sex is the kind within marriage: are you saying homosexual couples should be allowed to marry each other, or are you saying sex for homosexuals is hotter if they’re shackled for life to someone who they DON’T EVEN DESIRE SEXUALLY?


sex for homosexuals is hotter if they’re shackled for life to someone who they DON’T EVEN DESIRE SEXUALLY?yeah, that sounds correct : greater AGAPE hath no man than the guy who gives sex to someone he doesn’t even like.


The issue of being gay is a complicated issue. I believe that adopting a gay life style is a choice, though an extremely complicated one. I believe that childhood sexual abuse often plays a huge role in a person becoming gay, and so it is often more of a treatment issue than a cause for either celebration or condemnation. Is there a physiological dimension? Yes, a person can be predisposed by mostly social and familial factors to become gay. But a predisposition doesn’t automatically mean that the person will become gay in their lifestyle. Is there a moral dimension? Yes, but, sadly, members of my Christian community often ignore the psychological dimension, and this leads to acting in judgment way towards gays rather than accepting them, welcoming them with open arms, and showling them unconditional, agape love. Yes there is a moral dimension. I don’t believe God intended for anyone to be gay. But
I also believe that He never intended for anyone who is gay to feel hated or rejected by society. I think gay folks actually need to be shown more love than those whose lives have not become complicated in this way.


“I don’t believe God intended for anyone to be gay.”You mean it’s an instance of your god’s incapacity to make anything work the way he meant it to? Wouldn’t it make more sense to junk the so-called bible, since it is full of unrealistic assumptions about human behaviour? Or if that sounds like too much of a wrench, just stand well back while my Crowleyite friends turn it into a pornographic cryptogram?


Your friends can’t turn the Bible into anything. It is what it is. It may seem to contain unrealistc assumptions, but that may have to do with a misinterpretation on your part, Rowan. Can you offer some examples? If you want to know more about my views on gay marraige, look up my article in Orthodoxy Today.org
It’s called Adam and Steve want to Marry. By the way, Rowan, are you any relation to Hali Rowan? She was a good friend of mine in grad school.


My Crowleyite ‘friends’ (I speak figuratively) are busily making the bible ‘mean’ something derived from kabbalistic sex magic and pagan legend. This may seem to add to the zionist-fascist craze, and indeed it does add to it, which was my objection to Crowley in the first place, but in the long run it debauches the whole idea of sacred myth, leaving only a rag-bag of ideas about tantrism and yoga to put in its place. If you are an orthodox christian, Doc, in the sense of Greek or Russian orthodoxy, then you will be relatively immune to the zionisation which has overtaken western christianity, and you should be very aware of how easily manipulated the ‘meaning’ of the bible actually is.


greater AGAPE hath no man than the guy who gives sex to someone he doesn’t even like.

Hey–pay attention! U already said that! Well, sort of….


Um, I already said that. Damned typos!




Being gay is complicated? Gay is a choice?

The only thing complicated about being gay is that giant douches like the sandwich doctor keep spouting off about how people “choose to be gay”.

Why would anyone choose to be gay in a country responsible for both Matthew Shepard and Fred Phelps? It’s like arguing that people would choose to be African-American in Bull Connor’s Birmingham. Gay people are the victims of hate crimes at rates far exceeding any other minority in this country, proportionate to their percentage in the population. Christian Reconstructionists are on record saying they’d like to see the queers stoned to death, just like in Bible times.

I doubt the sandwich doctor is really up to date on the latest biological research on sexual orientation, anyway, and five will get you ten he’s got problems with evolutionary theory, anyway, so arguing the point with him will probably be a waste of my time.

But is it too much to ask that people who are not qualified to have an opinion on a topic just shut the fuck up about it? I mean, if you ask me my opinion on, say, the best way to heal the rift between the Orthodox and Catholic churches, my answer would have to be “hell if I know – I’m an atheist who doesn’t really give a crap about obscure doctrinal issues.” Why, therefore, can’t folks like the sandwich doctor have the same decency to not spout off about which they are too ignorant to be borne in polite company?


Declaring oneself gay and adopting an openly gay lifestyle may not feel like a choice, and it may be experienced as a Hobson’s choice for some—damned if I do and damned if I don’t. My belief that it is a choice is just that–a belief. Findings from scientific studies are often tainted with political bias. One has to consider the funding source. Also, I have yet to see a study come out that definitively proves once and for all that homosexual orientation is biologically determined. If you know of such a study, please pass that information on to me. Once again, I want to be clear, although I don’t believe an openly gay lifestyle is part of God’s plan for anybody’s life, I don’t offer condemnation towards gays. I’m probably a bigger sinner than most gays are. The only reason I’m worthy of anything is because of God’s grace and His blood that covers my sinsand believe me, there is a lot to cover. One can be against something without being against the person engaged in that which he/she is against. I am not against gays. We are all, by our natures, born into sin, and there is no truly righteous person on the face of the earth. Most gay patients I have seen as their psychologist, have acknowledged being the victim of childhood sexual abuse involving a same-sex perpetrator. I do not try to force them to become heterosexual, but I do treat the sexual abuse. To me, this is what complicates the matter. Many who may be seen celebrating in a gay parade are really feeling constantly conflicted and are really not celebrating but agonizing over things that happened to them in the past that they had no control over.


BLT, you’re really jumping to an unwarranted conclusion there, regarding the same-sex child abuse. First of all, I think you’re employing a variation on the “gays are all pedophiles” bit which is so damned ignorant-the rate is about the same, regardless of orientation, from a percent of the population view. However, as gay people are a significant minority of the general population, numerically the population of pedophiles in the heterosexual majority far outweighs the number of them in the gay community.
So, for the record, I was not ever molested as a child, either hetero or homosexually. But I was always 100% gay. I would not make any woman a good husband, God’s plan or not. Sorry.
And while I realize that it’s not a topic that would come up in light conversation, I’ve met only a relative few gay people who claimed to have been molested as children. It certainly didn’t seem more prevalent than in the straight population.


Hmmm………that’s pretty odd, Marq, because I actually was molested as a child, and I’m not gay. Nor am I particularly dysfunctional, sexually or otherwise. Sexual abuse is not automatically the life defining, life destroying experience it’s made out to be. It’s no bowl of cherries, but it’s something that people can and frequently do manage to get over. It’s certainly no guaranteed path to queerdom.

And as far as the sandwich doctor’s request for relevant journal citations….sheesh, don’t you follow the literature at all? Then again, based on your ridiculous use of the term “prove” in a scientific setting, along with your evident confusion over the whole concept of “biologically determined”, it’s fairly obvious you don’t have the requisite biology background to be able to. Come back again and ask when you’ve shown a better grasp of the foundational concepts in biology.


I did not say that gays were pedophiles, only that the majority of gays that have been patients of mine had been sexually abused by same-sex adults as children. Neither did I say that all adults sexually abused as children turn out to be gay as adults, or necessarily dysfunctional. The manner in which sexual abuse impacts later development depends on a variety of factors, including the frequency with which the abuse occurred, the sex of the perpetrator, the extent of the abuse (ie. fondling vs. penetration), the extent to which the victim was later engaged in treatment or corrective emotional experiences of any kind etc. Marq, I don’t claim to have all the answers concerning why individuals become gay. I was simply sharing my admittedly limited understanding, based on my clinical experience in working with gay patients.


“Zionisation”? yes – my point was that if Doc BLT is an orthodox christian, he belongs to the christian stream least affected by dispensationalism and its notion that the restoration of the jewish state is the key to the christian future. catholicism is somewhere in the middle on this, and protestantism most affected by it – in fact, the spectrum is exactly the same as the east-to-west one, with the most western forms of christianity most affected.


Has it occurred to you that one way if which that understanding is limited is the simple fact that you’re talking to patients seeking help for emotional problems? Someone who’s never been molested might, y’know, not NEED your services. And what the fuck does it mean to “adopt a gay lifestyle”? Do all homosexuals lead identical lives? Is every “heterosexual lifestyle” the same. I was never molested, and, like Marq, I’d say I was 100% gay. Try to get this into your skull, Doc: just as heterosexuals realize they’re attracted to the opposite sex long before they ever lose their virginity, most homosexuals realize they’re attracted to members of the same sex before they’ve actually been with somebody. There is, in other words, little difference in developement of sexuality. Do you honestly believe that gay people are just willing themselves to be gay voluntarily, that they’re just being stubborn, just trying to piss off the straight people? Do you have any idea how utterly ridiculous that assumption is? Another point: I had feelings for guys BEFORE I knew what it was called, so how, may I ask, could those feelings have been chosen? Like a lot of people (gay and straight) I was teased and called “faggot” and “gay” throughout my junior high and high school years, so I was afraid to come out at the time (if this is how they act when it’s just a word, imagine how they’d have treated me if they knew it was true). Yet oddly, that harrassment didn’t magically make women sexually desirable. It didn’t change anything. You’d think, if a person chooses to be gay or straight, they’d just flip that switch to “hetero” to avoid that, if it was that simple. But-and I think you already know that, however many times you parrot homophobic cliches from that handbook you seem to have memorized by rote-it just isn’t the case. What I’m saying is, some people are just naturally gay. Just becausae you can’t come up with any reason why God would want us to exist, doesn’t mean there ISN’T one. I find it offensive that the only way you can be tolerant of homsexuals is to view us as damaged goods.


Bill, as mentioned above, I don’t claim to have all the answers on this issue, and I can only speak from my own clinical experience in working with gays, and I have worked with plenty of gays. I have always been successful in establishing a professional relationship with them based on trust and mutual respect. None have ever left a session feeling like I hated them or discriminated against them or had a superior attitude towards them. I make my conservative views clear to them, but I do it in such a way as to respect their dignity, and in a way that does not make them feel ashamed, threatened, or on the defensive. You and I have not established this sort of professional relationship. I am not your psychologist and you are not my patient. Perhaps that’s why you may seem a little on the defensive in response to my remarks.

Bill, I only claimed to speak for my own clinical experience in working with gays. Working with gay individuals and having some book knowledge on the subject gives me a limited understanding of what it means to be gay, just as being gay gives you a limited understanding of what it is like to be gay for others whom you may have never met. I may lack first hand experience, and you may lack clinical experience and schooling (although I don’t really know what sort of education you have). I can learn from you, just as you can learn from me. As far as being damaged goods is concerned, I don’t regard gays as the only group to be damaged goods. We are all damaged goods, born into a sinful nature. Nobody is righteous except Jesus, nobody is pure, and nobody is free from the human condition of being damaged goods. We are all simply damaged in different degrees and, in our own unique ways.


It has just occurred to me that ‘Dan Someone’ may have thought that my remark about the “zionisation” of American christianity was a dig at Michael Newdow, “American’s most famous atheist”, and his campaign against the “under God” clause in the Pledge of Allegiance. This is not what I had in mind. As a matter of fact, I consider the Bush regime to be the prime example of “zionisation”, and the campaigns of people like Newdow to be utter red herrings.


You have “clinical knowledge” of homosexuality, yet wouldn’t know what Xq28 was if it walked up and bit you on the bum.

And if homosexuality is a “choice”, why is it a behavior that shows up in animals as divergent as fruit flies, macaques, and sheep? Do you perhaps think the fall of humanity from the grace of the Garden of Eden had a deleterious influence on the ratiocination of Drosophilidae? Because if so, that puts you amongst the extreme minority of trained biologists who believe that flies can think like people think. And that should give you pause to consider the wrongness of your position.

But I’m pretty sure it won’t. I place greater hope in the ratiocination of D. melanogaster than I do your average fundie.

It’s just sad. You seem to believe that God gave you a brain – why won’t you use it?


Dr. BLT claims his opinion of homosexuals is formed in part from his clinical experience with gay patients who’ve come to him for therapy. I find it extremely difficult to believe that every single one of them told him they made a concious decision to be gay. I find it even harder to believe that, if they DID all say something to that effect, that not a single one of them would offer a plausable reason WHY. If somebody chose one thing over another, wouldn’t that imply it had a decided advantage? Yet the people who believe sexual orientation is chosen always see being gay as a defect, a personal failing. Oh, not that Doc considers himself in any way superior. He just made the right choice. That’s all. He doesn’t say how that happened. Perhaps he was completely asexual throughout adolescence and high school, until one day he just up and decided to like girls because somebody else told him heterosexuality was morally preferable, and then just willed it to happen. Because unlike other people, he scheduled puberty, and even decided that on the appointed date, he’d not only like girls, but he’d be a breast man. (Okay, I went a little too far with that last part. I have no idea what feature on a woman he notices first.)
Kidding aside, if I found myself in need of a psychologist, I don’t think I could trust this guy. In the first place, he believes God is a homophobe, which I most certainly do not. In the second, while he claims to be open minded, I find little in his responses to suggest this; he merely repeats, over and over, the exact same points, ignoring for the most part, any question posed to him.


Where did you get the idea, Bill, that I believe God is a homophobe? If God did not intend for people to be gay, does that make them afraid of his own creation? No, he is not pathologically afraid of gays, and He has not stopped loving them because they are gay. The term homphobe that has lost its meaning. If you break it down, it means one who is pathologically afraid of homosexuals. It has evolved into a convenient, pejorative term designed to marginalize anyone who has a moral opinion on the subject of homosexuality. Having a moral opinion on the subject, doesn’t make one pathologically afraid of gays. And it doesn’t mean they feel morally superior or that they have a condemning attitude towards gays. It simply means they have a moral opinion about it. I’ve seen a new phenomenon develop over the past few years and I called it homophobia phobia—pathological fear of being called homophobic. I’m not afraid of being called homophobic and I’m not afraid to say that being gay is not part of God’s original plan. There are many things that I do that go against God’s original plan. There are things we all do that go against God’s original plan. So I am not saying that I am better than anyone simply because I am heterosexual and they are homosexual. But does that mean that I have to become so afraid of being labeled homophobic that I am willing to pretend to believe in something that I don’t believe in?


The term “homophobe” as, oh, everybody else reading this comments thread understands it, is not clinical. It’s just a shorthand term for someone with an animus towards homosexuals. You have demonstrated that in at least two ways, and probably more. First, you claim that gay people aren’t part of God’s original plan, as if you could possibly know all that God had planned. When you say “There are many things we all do that go against God’s original plan”, I’m fairly certain you’re not talking about driving cars or using computers, though neither of those things is in the Bible. So you’re saying being gay is a bad thing, not matter how you try to deflect away from that. Second, you used the phrase, “anyone who has a moral opinion on the subject”, as if my belief that there’s nothing wrong with being gay, ISN’T “a moral opinion”, when obviously it IS. So you do believe hetereosexuals are morally superior to homosexuals, no matter how you try to deflect away from that.


Bill, you may try to make me out to be a gay-hater, but I honestly don’t hate anyone who is gay or believe that I am morally superior. I simply believe the Bible when it says, “All of our righteousness is as filthy rags…” When it says, “our,” I’m assuming it means heterosexuals too. I base my belief about God’s original plan on the book of Genesis, where God man Adam and Eve. That was his original plan. When Adam and Eve sinned, all of humanity, and all of nature, was poisoned, yes, even fruit flies. Fruit flies however, don’t have a conscience, so they cannot be considered morally responsible for their actions. Humans are morally responsible for theirs, but we’ve all blown it—big time. Without salvation, without Christ, we’re all hopelessly lost and in need of redemption. We’re all in the same sinking boat. There’s not a seperate one for gays.


I hate to point this out, but the bible was written by men, not god. Men with agendas, it would make sense for men in power to say “only lie with woman” because they want new soldiers and bakers. Just as it makes sense now, for leaders to use the bible. Possibly to the extent of oh…. i dunno DECLARING A NATIONAL DAY OF PRAYER (how fucking useless is that seriously).The bible is a book, nothing more, nothing less. In my estimation, not even a particularly good book.
Political and sociatal decisions should not be based on an old work of fiction. They should be based on science, and and logic and humanitarianism. That logic shouldn’t escape even you BLT.


How odd to believe in a god that doesn’t know how things are going to play out and yet say that we should all follow what he told someone thousands of years ago… St. Bernard of Clairveaux (sp?) said that time does not exist for God — that everything is happening right now for God. How, then, could God not know all about his creation? If God is constrained by time, or doesn’t know how it all turns out, then I’m going to have to argue his omniscient/omnipotent standing. Not too confidence inspiring.

The alternative is that God does know how everything turns out and that there is a good reason for everything and if something has gone horribly awry from his original plans, then he could fix it instantly so that no one would know it ever happened. If that’s the case, then sexual orientation is part of the plan. I have enough faith that god has it all firmly in hand and all that’s required of me is to be as good a person as I can be and encourage others to do the same.

The point is, we cannot know. We don’t get to know until the show is over. I’m going to leave the whole judging thing up to the expert.


Timmah420, the Bible may be nothing more to you than and “old work of fiction,” but for me, it is God’s divine revelation to humankind. At the very least, if you want to be intellectually honest, you’ll have to acknowledge that it has been the most influential book this world has ever known. It has given hope to the hopeless, and grace to the criminal. It has been the source of reconciliation to many a broken relationship, and it has been instrumental in healing the sick. It has changed millions and millions of lives for the better. Unfortunately, some have misused the Bible to justify condemning others, judging others, even hating or killing others. Those folks have given Christianity a bad name. Those people may be the reason you are so resentful about everything this book represents, and hateful and intolerant of those who love the book. It is a book that teaches us how to love and how to freely accept the love of God. It is not opposed to science, but consistent with science. Science is just a little behind and the Bible is ahead of its time. Have you noticed that all scientific studies are presented with only a percentage of confidence in the result(s)? New studies are constantly disproving old ones, and these new studies will one day be disproven. In the end, it will be clear to everyone how science will prove the Bible to be true. Then there will be no room for doubt. Yes, The Bible was written by men, but, in my belief, it was written by men inspired by God. It contains old prophesies, now fulfilled, and prophesies that will be fulfilled with the passing of time. It is not exhaustive in its truth, but it gives us a foundation for truth. The best thing about the Bible is that it tells us how we can know God. It is not by doing good, as the unidentified blogger would have us believe. God demands moral perfection. None of us can live up to that standard. Therefore, we need a Savior, Jesus Christ, to be perfect on behalf of all of us. Jesus bore the sins of the whole world and died the death we all deserve to die because of our sin. All of the logic in the world won’t convince either of you that the Bible is inspired by God, or that Jesus is the Savior of our souls. If the love of God has not touched your heart, then all the explaining in the world won’t take care of that. When you know the real Bible, you won’t reject it because it is a beautiful love story that has a happy ending. When you know the real God, and feel the power of His love, you will not reject Him, because that love will be greater than any love you have ever known. Yes, God could snap his fingers and make everything that has gone wrong right again. But to do that, he would have to take away our free will. We have the freedom to accept Him, or reject Him–to accept the Bible as the word of God, or reject it as “old fiction.” Free will is a wonderful thing, and God’s will, once accepted in accordance with our free will, is so wonderful, no words, no music, no expression can do justice to its unspeakable beauty.


What does “free will” mean?


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