Hint: Walter Mondale Was Not Punk
Solipsism might be, though:
by Doug TenNapel
Johnny Cash was punk rock.
There’s really no point in reproducing any more of TenNapel’s incoherent, misinformed and singularly unhelpful (but thankfully pretty short) screed. The above pretty much says it all — Johnny Cash was not ‘punk rock’, at least not in the context that TenNapel presents, which is no context at all.
Realizing that, we feel it does not bode well for the larger argument that ‘Republican’, counter-intuitively and phrased in technically correct but awkward fashion, is also ‘punk rock’. There is, of course, a context in which Cash can be called ‘punk rock’ in terms of essence (less so for ‘Republican’, but we were intrigued enough to click on the above to hear the attempt, alas) as opposed to ‘punk rock’ in terms of, you know, actually being punk rock. In much the same way that one might weigh the ‘punk rockness’ of a raw egg (possibly), a Miata (not at all) or clumsy, mostly clothed sex in an alley (absolutely), one could decide whether or not this singer of demonstrably-not-punk-rock songs is ‘punk rock’. E.g.: There are certain qualities that Johnny Cash possesses (dark, raw, dead) that are essential ‘punk rock’ qualities, weighed against others (non-urban, lack of physicality, is Johnny-fucking-Cash) that are not.
But that’s the sort of amusing late-night categorization that requires some sort of rules-based framework, a better-than-passing grasp of what ‘punk rock’ refers to, and probably some meth, none of which the author provides, to his discredit.
No, TenNapel has no guidelines for what he is attempting to say here. He makes no effort whatsoever to define ‘punk rock’, which wouldn’t be a terrible omission if he was able to demonstrate even indirectly that he grasps fuck-all about the concept. He might as well have said, ‘Polenta is the new risotto’, then spent 500 words talking about oatmeal, for all the light he sheds on this supposed punk-rockness of Republicans.
Still, as disjointed as this cautionary-tale-level feat of wilful unrigorousness is, it does have some merit as a delivery system of dull mirth — the kind of reaffirmation that ‘wingnuts are stupid’ which winds up on our doorsteps day after day yet periodically occasions a weary smile. Thus, TenNapel, attempting to label anything and everything that’s vaguely non-conformist (or else isn’t at all) as ‘punk rock’, skips ungainfully through a series of counter-cultural bogeymen that have made various ‘it’ scenes in the past 50 years. ‘Punk rock’, in TenNapel’s world is sometimes decked out in black like Cash, or wearing hippy beads, or plugging iPods … or even, we kid you not, knocking back cocktails with Joey Bishop at the Dunes. How else to explain this line:
This [Obama] is the mainstreaming of the bad boy, complete with rat-pack suit and cigarette in hand. A snappy skin spread over the boring, failed, liberal Democrats of the sixties.
As to whatever kernel of a nugget of a morsel of a point that TenNapel is trying to make, one of his commenters sums it up briefly and better than I’ve done:
I mean, your argument goes
punk = anti-establishment
Obama = establishment
GOP = anti-ObamaTherefore GOP = punk
That’s incredibly silly. Did that make Walter Mondale punk?
Hint: Walter Mondale was not punk
Jeez.
How long before BreitBlart goes blelly up?
Actually, to further distill the commenter’s summary of TenNapel’s argument:
punk = good
Obama = bad
GOP = good
Therefore GOP = punk
In before “Teh Fool: your music sucks & your clothes are icky” … also, someone should show this guy the ending of “Sid & Nancy” some time. Like, say, a week before he wrote his column, for instance.
by Doug TenNapel
I really don’t think the camel case does him any favors.
Also, punk = anti-abortion for some unknown reason.
Things that are punk:
Toasters
Chunks of masonry
Kittens
Tissue paper
Also all nouns.
Also, punk = anti-abortion for some unknown reason.
Bodies?
Punk behaviour:
Not doing drugs
Not having sex
Neither rocking nor rolling.
Republicans = punk.
I suppose so, in the same way that hemorrhoids = acne.
I am still very much interested in getting into this Liberal Vatican. Any tips would be most appreciated.
Also, punk = anti-abortion for some unknown reason.
Righties think the song “Bodies” proves that the Sex Pistols were anti-abortion, and of course slavishly following the opinions of others, true or not, is TOTALLY punk rock.
Dumbass racist?
Sure, Republicans are punk.
My punk-ass bitches.
Nice.
Sneering at manual laborers, making racist jokes in private, lusting after the latest beemer.
Totally punk.
TenNapel: ‘Sure, they still wear the earring and say “fuck” a lot to maintain street-cred among the academics, but now rock has taken sides — it is for the establishment.’
Sadly, no. Although it would be amusing to see how long you last in academia after you start dropping F-bombs.
My guess would be three – no, wait, four seconds. Seriously, with language like that you’d have to be in Congress.
By the way, RB, it’s just come to my attention that you HAVE NO CHANCE of attacking Jeff Godlstein’s ideas.
Or even attempting, and such as.
~
That’s about as irrefutable as any statement can possibly be, and yet one of the many nitwits in the comments section does indeed try to refute it:
Next – Why Everett Dirksen was an anarcho-sexual revolutionary.
Perhaps Republicans will adopt as their theme song Pretty Vacant
It fits pretty well.
Scroll to the bottom, Thunder, and you’ll see me recognized for my true worth.
Knowing the GOP, what really happens is they respond by offering up this week’s “Tell Us What To Believe” menu & price-list, then snapping on a spiffy new set of knee-pads & doing what comes naturally to the old whores.
Because hate is just so fuckin’ hardcore! We know you want to fix things – & we’ll do whatever we can to ruin that for you, no matter how many may suffer or die if we succeed. Even though we lost we still get to run the show, because, uh … JUST BECAUSE! Waaaahhh!
never mind the bollocks here’s sarah palin.
@ jim:
You’re right – I think the Republicans are more ’emo’ than ‘punk’ at this stage in the game.
that is hilarious, I love the guy who blames it on America being cursed
Make a fist and show them what happens when they tell you what to think, feel and believe.
LIGHTNING BOLT!!! LIGHTNING BOLT!!!
I own two punk albums, one of which is The Dead Kennedys’ Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables.
The Dead Kennedys were not Republicans, but that didn’t make them Democrats.
The minority party in a two party system is still the fucking establishment.
A while back I found some website for “conservative punks” and it had the exact same problem Doug has. The guy writing it wanted to be a punk, but was only capable of thinking in the form of meaningless cliches that had been fed to him by his party bosses.
If you aren’t capable of realizing that everything Doug lauds up there is just as much of a meaningless brand slogan as “hope and change” then you should keep your politics the fuck out of your art, you damn rube.
Incidentally, it’s amazing to me that otherwise savvy people (A category Doug may or may not occupy) can’t recognize basic advertising techniques when those techniques are used by politicians. “Enables Job creators to make more jobs” is as much of a meaningless ad slogan as “Mentos: The Freshmaker!”.
But nobody but a shill will ever write a letter to the editor explaining with great earnestness why Mentos is the freshmaker.
That little minx!
Johnny Cash may not have been punk, but he WAS the original goth.
or carbon credits
Roy’s gonna be a major player in the new energy economy.
Oh wow, that would be comics artist and creator of “Earthworm Jim” Doug TenNapel? I knew he leaned right, but not to such a ridiculous degree.
Johnny Cash may not have been punk, but he WAS the original goth.
You’ve never heard of Ralph Stanley or Skip James, have you? There’s nothing new under the sun, just technological advances and different haircuts.
If you want me to join to your cause, abandon your cause. That’s practically Zen.
Even Richard Nixon has got soul.
Given what we have seen over the past eight years ( and now I am going to date myself as the hideous old crust that I am), the Republicans are NOT punk rock. They are like a Rick Wakeman in a satin baseball jacket playing a 23-minute solo jam in front of an audience of quualude gobbling narcoleptics at the Philadelphia forum.
Dear Heavens, does this mean the Republicans are trying to become relevant?
Puts a new spin on Tragically Hip.
It was a “Man in Black” reference. No need to break out the pedantics.
(Tho truth be told, no I had never heard of them, and I’ve been sitting here acquainting myself with them. I find I’m enjoying Mr. Stanley in particular. My dad’s a bluegrass fan. I might actually have something to talk with him about now. 😀 )
Jody- That’s Dr. Stanley, not Mr. Stanley.
In Soviet Russia, lolcat reads YOU!
No need to break out the pedantics.
I can only speak for myself, but I come here with my pedant pennant unfurled. Like Jimi Hendrix with his freak flag, except uncool, which means I am punk rock.
In the words of the great philosopher, Lux Interior:
You ain’t no punk, you punk.
You wanna talk about the real junk?
Stick out your can.
I’m the garbageman!
Johnny Cash = punk? Now, I could see David Allen Coe…..
Oh, and I think the deal with Doug, Mike Nelson, Kelsey Grammer, etc. is this: most artists (or entertainers; I’ll use the term ‘art’ to reduce clutter), like most people, are pretty naive and dull and pretty uncritical about their own political beliefs. This is mostly independent of political affiliation — I’ve met mostly unexamined, kneejerk “liberals”, “independents”/”moderates”, and “conservatives.” Sometimes a major shock or life change shifts their mild prejudices to strong prejudices (Dennis Miller shifting from mildly conservative to jackbooted wingnut, Rosie O’Donnell embracing 9/11 truthers, all of those “Road To Damascus” conversions of indifferent ‘liberals’ to neoconservatism), but the eventual political stance is usually as mindless as the original one.
More importantly on the topic of artists, one’s artistic ability is mostly independent of the prejudicial/kneejerk part of cognition. There are brilliant artists who subscribe to odious political or religious beliefs as well as brilliant enlightened liberals or leftists. Sometimes the leaking of politics into art damages the public’s enjoyment of the art (Dave Sim is an ideal example) and sometimes it literally damages the art. An example of the latter is An American Carol, which repeatedly sacrificed satire and coherence for the sake of conservative propaganda. I think the core conceit of satirizing tendentious documentary filmmakers could have made a funny film, and many of the people involved have been funny in the past.
Anyway. I guess my point is that it shouldn’t be surprising that people who have produced interesting art or amusing entertainment have wackaloon politics, because most of the time the two things don’t have anything to do with one another.
Never Mind the Numbnuts?
Holiday in Numbnuttia?
Numbnuts Calling?
Dumb Music for Dumb People?
Johnny Cash was punk rock.
Or not.
Punxsutawney Phil, now he’s punk.
When I hear that whistle blowin’, I hang my head & cry.
That sounds oddly familiar. Did that happen? Was I there?
Punk = The Ramones
Republican = Joey Ramone
Joey = Dead
Obama=Alive
Thus, Republicans are the new Punk.
Now, on to Stage Right’s next literary abortion.
AL GORE IS PUNK-FUCKING-ROCK!
Punk Rock was the necessary correction to the error that was Glam Rock. Are Republicans Punk Rock? Let me put it this way, a liberal was at the Republican convention in 1988 and stated “Oh dude, you have not lived until you’ve seen a line of Young Republicans trying to do the “Electric Slide!”
Sorry, but anyone incapable of pulling of the “Electric Slide” with some degree of competence can never be considered Punk Rock.
If the GOP is the new punk, does that mean The Constitution Party is the new Hardcore Punk? Is the Libertarian Party the new reggae? And where do The Shaggs figure into all this?
Does this also mean Mary Grabar is the new Patty Smith? If so, would that make contra dancing the new pogo?
If the GOP is the new punk, does that mean The Constitution Party is the new Hardcore Punk?
Yes. Also, the Klan is the new Ska.
show them what happens when they tell you what to think, feel and believe.
AND
If you want me to unite to your cause, then legislate to make pregnancy compulsory.
I don’t know what Doug is drinking, but it sure isn’t Hobgoblin.
He actually hits the trifecta here. He gets Punk wrong, Johnny Cash wrong, and Obama wrong.
“I remember back in ’84
When punks opposed all fucking war
A nuclear threat knocked at our door
But still, a punk was a fucking punk”
-World Burns To Death
Die Toten Hosen: Carnival In Rio (Punk Was), with Ronnie Biggs on vocals.
The position that Johnny Cash was some sort of proto-punk is pretty widely held by your average hipster, so it’s not exactly novel. To really understand the connection they see, you have to throw gangsta rap in there. Unfortunately, that just leaves you with the unsurprising revelation that themes of alienation, violence, and rebellion are common in popular music.
If Johnny Cash was punk, so was NWA.
They never have gotten the distinction between punk rock and punk-ass, and they never will.
P.S.: Punk rock was a reaction to the Rat Pack?
FAIL
themes of alienation, violence, and rebellion are common in popular music.
Some of those Bach cantatas, for instance. Hardcore to the max.
Homer: punk icon.
Also, the Klan is the new Ska.
I can’t wait to hear their version of “Stand Down Margaret.”
Let’s face it, they’re still trying to pretend that they didn’t totally miss the point of “Born in the USA.”
so they’re desparately trying to co-opt everything that’s cool about popular music.
So basically… punk rock hates black people.
Miatas are kind of punk… in a Shonen Knife covering The Kinks sort of way.
Punk: making a peanut-butter sandwich.
This isn’t that new. Greil Marcus identified the “Republican Punk” meme in 1981, in a piece that isn’t on the web, don’t think, but is reprinted in this book.
Money quote: “Republican punks–not all of whom, by any means, are actual members of the Republican party–may be recognized by their affirmation of traditional morality in a manner that altogether abjures traditional standards of courtesy or decorum…”
OK. I’m trying. I sort of get that Republicans are nihilists. Who want to destroy everything.
OK. And kids these days don’t know anything about them? Or understand them? Or live where they are, because all their adherents are old, dessicated white dudes? No, wait, Republican is the new punk rock, not the actual, long-dead punk rock.
Dammit.
may be recognized by their affirmation of traditional morality in a manner that altogether abjures traditional standards of courtesy
Oh, I get it. They’re self-righteous moralists who act like assholes!
TenNapel thinks Republicans are punk because they’re cynical, anti-social, and hate the government (when it does anything to help people at least — the parts that blow stuff up are pretty cool).
He forgets Republicans also love bourgeois status symbols, hate the lower classes, embrace religion, preach authoritarianism, suck up to the rich, and pride themselves in being extremely narrow-minded pasty skinned dorks.
Judging by this, the Taliban were probably hardcore punkers and Normal Rockwell paintings the dadaist art of their time. As ever, the only thing exceeding your average Republican’s stupidity is his complete lameness.
I’m kinda hoping for a remake of The Harder They Come with an all-white cast, preferably with Toby Keith playing the role of Ivan Martin.
I’m kinda hoping for a remake of The Harder They Come with an all-white cast…
Oh hell yeah. Save me a seat at the theater.
I’ll be up in the balcony, smoking a joint and eating popcorn.
College Republican Punks
These men are nihilists, there’s nothing to be afraid of.
Which is more accurate; nihilists don’t care.
Republicans are kinda anarchists; selective anarchists. They are gleeful about destroying anything that doesn’t agree with them.
As the Dead Kennedys were brought up, I think the following is appropriate
Nazi Punks Fuck Off
The punk thing to do would be to turn off your cell phone and quietly enjoy the movie without disturbing the other patrons.
I’ll be up in the balcony, smoking a joint and eating popcorn.
Kewl. I’ll bring the shrooms.
– I was going to say that the new white-supremacist “Stand Down Margaret” might be “Dig Up Margaret”, only I found out she isn’t actually dead.
Does this mean that Ron Paul is the new Timothy Leary?
The punk thing to do would be to turn off your cell phone and quietly enjoy the movie without disturbing the other patrons.
Good point. Eating popcorn is still punk, as long as you chew quietly, don’t throw any, and make sure it’s buttered with Country Life.
Black presidents are the Jews of Conservative Punkism.
Oh and I met June Carter Cash and John his own self. The Man in Black was many things but punk was not one of them. This whole article is just sooooo wrong I can’t even begin… Can we bring back public stockades now? Ok, I’m going to go read the rest of the comments now.
Manymanymany years ago, a guy wearing pleated slacks and a cardigan tried to persuade me that he was a hippy, just like me.
But compared to President Obama being a member of the ratpack, maybe he was.
Some famous conservative punk sayings:
– ‘Quiet in the mosh pit, please. Iggy is putting.’
– ‘I’m so interested in the U.S.A.’
– ‘For a short time only, the Franklin Mint is proud to offer a 2-for-1 deal on this lovely Ronald Reagan commemorative coin and a baggie of GG Allin’s cum. Order now … lots are going fast!’
The position that Johnny Cash was some sort of proto-punk is pretty widely held by your average hipster …
Yeah, Djur, that’s true and why I tried to make the distinction of discussing ‘punk rock’ as a matter of essence vs. a matter of actually being categorized as punk rock. I also don’t really think TenNapel is that sophisticated … it’s not the kind of argument he’s making here. Or if it is, he’s really really bad at it.
Yes, back in the day, when I was hanging out at CBGB’s in 1978, Richard Hell would frequently discuss his economic theories of supply and demand and the free market with the Voidoids.
If you want to compare the GOP to punk, you could say that the Republican Party is a lot like Flipper, without the irony.
They don’t seem to be concerned about rhythm.
Their stuff goes on way too long.
Their songs are the same thing over and over again.
They don’t care who they alienate.
Their later stuff sucks.
I vote for antichrist
I vote for anarchist
Dont know what I want but
I know how to get it
I wanna destroy the Bill of Rights!
’cause Iiiiiiiiiiii wanna beeeeeeee GOP
Earthworm Wingnut’s screed reminded me of the following:
Homer: So, I realized that being with my family is more important than being cool.
Bart: Dad, what you just said was powerfully uncool.
Homer: You know what the song says: “It’s hip to be square”.
Lisa: That song is so lame.
Homer: So lame that it’s…cool?
Bart and Lisa: No.
Marge: Am I cool, kids?
Bart and Lisa: No.
Marge: Good. I’m glad. And that’s what makes me cool, not caring, right?
Bart and Lisa: No.
Marge: Well, how the hell do you be cool? I feel like we’ve tried everything here.
Homer: Wait, Marge. Maybe if you’re truly cool, you don’t need to be told you’re cool.
Bart: Well, sure you do.
Lisa: How else would you know?
Any definition of Punk Rock that incorporates freaking da fuk out over abortion is probably a flawed definition. He can go from there if he likes.
Fuckin’ poseurs.
To quote probably the perfect response to “conservative punk”, let us quote SLC PUNK!, to wit:
“Posers were people who looked like punks but they did it for fashion. And they were fools, they’d say “anarchy in the UK.” What the fuck’s that? Anarchy in the UK. What good is that to those of us in Utah, America? It was a Sex Pistols thing. They were British, they were allowed to go on about Anarchy in the UK. You don’t live your life by lyrics.”
Flipper?
the Republican Party is a lot like Flipper
Didn’t Burt Prelutsky write an episode of Flipper?
There was more than one episode of Flipper?
Wasn’t it always, “oh no, sharks advancing on the children stars! Not to worry, Flipper will *beat the sharks to death*. YAY, THE DAY IS SAVED!”?
I hope Flipper died in a tuna net and was fed to those children.
They don’t seem to be concerned about rhythm.
Their stuff goes on way too long.
Their songs are the same thing over and over again.
They don’t care who they alienate.
Their later stuff sucks.
These work surprisingly well as alternative lyrics for Wonderful World.
Conservative punk rock:
Anarchy in the UK. What good is that to those of us in Utah, America?
Anarchy in Utah would be horrifying, at least at first – like any other dyed-in-the-wool authoritarian joint.
I need to see SLC Punk. Having lived in Salt Lake City for so long, I kind of owe it to myself.
In Soviet Russia, lolcat reads YOU!
Pedantic Russian-reading Smut is not amused.
Conservative punk rock:
bighollywood.breitbart.com: It’s how stupid gets delivered.
George F. Will is the new punk.
#
A bit OT, but…
In case he’s lurking, my apologies to the Fool for dare pointing it out (okay not really), but THIS was the reason why punk rock had to happen.
There was more than one episode of Flipper?
Wasn’t it always, “oh no, sharks advancing on the children stars! Not to worry, Flipper will *beat the sharks to death*. YAY, THE DAY IS SAVED!”?
There was that other one, where a bad guy aims a gun at the children, then inexplicably walks backwards to the very edge of the dock, paying no attention to the water behind him.
Or the one where the shark aims a gun at the children and backs up too close to the water. Or the one where the bad guy rides a shark too close to flipper.
See, endless possibilities.
Didn’t Flipper prove that the monster was really the disgruntled amusement park owner in disguise?
Over at the Economist, they are having a very serious discussion.
Furthermore, it is abundantly clear that if (lowercase p)resident Obama tries to limit executive compensation in any future bailouts, he is a poopypants.
And he would have gotten away with it if it hadn’t been for those nosy kids!
I haven’t read all the comments, but has anyone gotten to this one:
Even if granting Johnny Cash was punk rock, he was also NOT REPUBLICAN. Have you fucking listened to Man in Black, you goddamn cockhead, Big Hollywood?
shit like this pisses me off. Republicans coopting entire lives and whole bodies of work because of some superficial trappings. he’s country music, so he’s republican?
Arrogant cocksucker.
The episode where Flipper has a frickin’ laser beam attached to his frickin’ head was never screened in NZ.
the Republican Party is a lot like Flipper
In the sense of being self-destructive ne’er-do-wells, maybe, but the Republican Party could never come up with such great bass lines.
I was shocked and wrote my ABC affiliate a stern letter when Flipper called Gore Vidal a queer.
I’m reminded of this oldie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLhfxI8T2cU
Conservatives would probably like to believe this since an ad told them so, even if Subaru is the prefered auto for Amherst College drum circle enthusiasts rather than punk rockers.
Can you hear the war cry?
It’s time to enlist!
The people speak as one
The cattle, the crowd
Those too afraid to live
They demand a sacrifice!
Objectivist punk rock:
Am An Antichrist
I Am An Aynarchist
I know what I want
But I don’t know how to get it
I wanna concept of man as hero,
with his own happiness his only purpose,
havin’ productive achievement,
with reason his only absolute;
compassion will not be missed
‘Cause
I want the world to be…
Objectivist!
No Second-handers!
Objectivism for the USA
It’s coming sometime and I gotta say
I’m in the wrong time line for it just to be a dream
You’re future’s lookin’ like a pyramid scheme
‘Cause
I wanna be Aynarchist!
Self-interest!
How many ways to get what you want?
I use the best
I use the rest
I use the enemy
I use epistemology
‘Cause
I wanna be Aynarchy
Rationality!
Is this the L.P. or
Is this the A.R.I. or
Is this A not A?
I thought it was the U.S.A.
Or just another country
Mired in foreign collectivist degeneracy?
I Wanna Be Aynarchy
I Wanna Be Aynarchy
Oh what a name
And I Wanna Be An Objectivist
Get Pissed
Destroy!
I’m reminded of this oldie:
Ten years later, subaru dude loses his virginity:
What the FUCK?
Fortunately I don’t give two tugs on a dead dingo’s dick about music, so TenNapel’s attempt to co-opt punk rock is no skin off my duck, or no water off my nose or whatever you young people say. If he had tried the same trick with visual-arts movements, and announced that Republican is the New Neue Sachlichkeit, then I would have been ropable.
So one tug?
Speaking of Republican punks, is the notoriously racist Marian Kester Coombs of the Washington Times the same Marian Kester who used to write for various San Francisco punk zines and penned an unauthorized Dead Kennedys biography?
I met her once. A real lost soul who would say or write anything just to get a rise out of people. Guess she found the ultimate outlet for her obnoxiousness.
I think he got it wrong:
Conservative = oldfashioned
Oldfashioned = stufff from when leaders of the GOP were young
Obama = Establishment
Hippies = ye olde anti-establishment
GOP = Hippies
QED!
No, hippies are too well-adjusted about sex for that to be plausible.
Liveblogging 24: a form of torture?
I have here in my hand an invisible list of two hundred and five precepts that were known to Karl Marx as being crucial to the Democratic Party and which are still working and shaping the ridicule of people who are meaner than you.
Shit! That’s not liveblogging 24!
That makes it even funnier.
Republican Punk Rock
Days before the presidential election fraud of 2000 republicans paid for radio advertisements claiming affiliation with songs from Bob Dylan, Phil Ochs, and Pete Seger. The claim of each ad was that the republicans were the outcasts, the put upon, the rebels, the stand up Party for the “little guy.” The ads left the impression that they republicans were part of the anti-war movement and the protest songs were about their cause. It would be similar to Rupert Murdoch claiming that FOX news is real news and that he lives in a hovel where he struggles with his artistic heart and concern for the plight of the poor. He would claim that his favorite song titles are, “Iraq, the Democratic Paradise,” except for the damn Iraqis,” “Whose Department of Justice is it Anyway,” “I Treat All Americans as if They are Terror Suspects,” “Bill Kristol is a Prince,” and my all time favorite, “Enjoy the Police State We Are Creating to Prevent Sinning.” A friend wanted to add his favorite title, “If It Feels Like a Police State You Are Home.” He said that the lyrics make him want to drink a fifth of Jim Beam in less than an hour.
Well there’s the Johnny Rotten angle:
And also, like G.G. Allin, Republicans eat shit.
I think I figured it out– the Republicans are “straight-edge” punk rock.
From Wikipedia:
“By the early 1990s, militant straight edge was a well-known presence in the scene – the term militant meaning someone who is dedicated and outspoken, but also believed to be narrow-minded, judgmental, and potentially violent. The militant straight edger was characterized by the following: less tolerance for non-straight-edge people, more outward pride in being straight edge, more outspokenness, and the willingness to resort to violence in order to promote clean living.”
That sounds about right. Replace “straight edger” with “wingnut” and it’s a pretty precise parallel. Oh, you’d also have to replace “resort to violence” with “act like a tough guy on blogs.” Straight-edge is also totally boring and irrelevant, just like wingnuttery– I mean, it’s Minor Threat and then 30 years of suck.
I dunno, I can sorta see the argument…
“Although many white power skinheads listened to Oi! music, they also developed a separate genre known as Rock Against Communism (RAC). The most notable RAC band was Skrewdriver, which started out as a non-political punk band but evolved into a neo-Nazi band after the first lineup broke up and a new lineup was formed.” (Wikipedia)
It’s still a stupid argument to make.
Does anybody remember the movie “Bob Roberts?” Over the past few years I’ve been thinking I can’t believe how prophetic it was. It seemed hilariously ironic at the time, but it looks like a documentary now.
Iggy Pop is now doing car insurance adverts in the UK. For those of you who thought John Lydon’s butter commercials were the truly ‘punk’ thing to do, you’d love these. They’re so ‘punk’ they make you want to stick a rusty nail in your fucking eye just to take your mind off how ‘punk’ they are, and then set fire to your television so you never have to see Iggy being so ‘punk’ again.
Incidentally, few people know that Iggy Pop’s stage name is in fact a simple contraction of his real name, which is Ignaceous Popular.
Iggy’s from Detroit, so car insurance is appropriate.
And James Newell Osterberg, Jr never was any Rob Tyner
shit like this pisses me off. Republicans coopting entire lives and whole bodies of work because of some superficial trappings. he’s country music, so he’s republican?
Correction: TRYING to coopt entire lives and whole bodies of work. And as my grandpappy used to say, Tryin’ ain’t gettin.’ What pathetic putzes. With all the time and energy they waste trying to not be what they are, they could be turning themselves into what they are not and save us all this wear tear and depreciation.
I’m going to email my way-cool brother, the ultimate music snob/historian, about this whole situation, especially in re: Mr. Cash. Bro has lived in Nashville 25 years and actually knows/knew lotsa these “punks” and such. Ohh man, one head asplosion comin’ up.
Houston had a problem with neo-Nazi skinheads in the late ’80s. Last I heard, they’d been subsidized by a rightwing lawyer in Spring (a few miles north). Oh yeah, and one guy who’s dad was mayor of a town in Galveston Co. I don’t remember Houston straight-edgers being all that bad. A little naive, maybe.
You want right-wing punk, you gotta have Fear. Funny as hell, at least if you’re middle class white college student. Localy, there were the Hates.
TenNipples is a tool. He sounds like one of those Christian youth ministers trying to convince kids that submitting to the ultimate authority is really the ultimate rebellion, because it’s “going against the crowd.”
Maybe he’s got a point, though, because the for inmates of PJM are gonna have to go DIY. How about those brothers who put Zell Miller in their video? Punk as F**k! (Asterisks mandatory in the GOP).
So I’m an independent. Always have been. I’m basically a libertarian, but I don’t agree with everything libertarians believe. I’m conservative in some areas, liberal in others. Basically, I’m my own man. Why should I bow down to anyone’s agenda if I don’t agree with everything?
The only person I’ve ever heard that said something like this and wasn’t an absolute cunt was Chris Rock.
It’s actually worrying, since that means my expectation is that the other shoe is going to drop and I’m going to find out Chris Rock funded Prop. 8 with the Mormons and voted for Buchanan.
“Enables Job creators to make more jobs” is as much of a meaningless ad slogan as “Mentos: The Freshmaker!”.
But nobody but a shill will ever write a letter to the editor explaining with great earnestness why Mentos is the freshmaker.
I have no idea if groups of recent high school graduates ever actually went into draft offices singing the refrain from “Alice’s Restaurant” or not, but it’s the kind of thing that should’ve happened. Similarly, large numbers of smartasses should start writing letters to the editor explaining with great earnestness why Mentos is the freshmaker.
Why, if one smartass does it, if just one smartass writes a letter to the editor explaining with great earnestness why Mentos is the freshmaker . . . they’ll think you’re crazy and they won’t print it.
But if two smartasses write letters to the editor explaining in great earnestness why Mentos is the freshmaker . . . they’ll think you’re both faggots and they still won’t print it.
But if three smartasses–three smartasses–write letters to editor explaing in great earnestness why Mentos is the freshmaker . . . well, they’ll think it’s a movement! And it will be a movement!
Is Arlo Guthrie punk-rock?
So, if Republicans is punk-rock now, and Johnny Cash was punk-rock, does that mean Toby Keith is the new Johnny Cash?
Cause if it does, I might have to kill myself.
More importantly on the topic of artists, one’s artistic ability is mostly independent of the prejudicial/kneejerk part of cognition.
Djur, I’m going to disagree with you, to an extent.
I think the more you tend to have knee-jerk reactions, and the less you actually try to understand the world, no matter what your political POV, the worse an artist you are going to be. An informed artist will tend to grasp nuances and subtleties of the world around him or her and reflect them in his work.
Ability is the application of talent thru the lens of your perceptions and your instrument. That instrument and those perceptions are generally better honed the more aware of the world you are.
I liken this to Darryl Strawberry of baseball infamy: here was a kid who was so talented that in high school, major league teams seriously considerd bringing him to the MLB roster. He had loads of talent, but because no one bothered to really sit down and make him aware of the world around him, he ended up being (on a career basis) a less-than-mediocre baseball player and certainly never lived up to his hype, except for bursts here and there.
Had someone gotten thru to him, I have no doubt he’d be holding the major league career home run record, not Barry Bonds, and he’d have done it without steroids (probably). He’d have worked his butt off, and learned as much as possible about the game from the people who came before him and by observing the world around him (other players, in other words).
There are great liberal actors. There are great conservative actors, as well, like James Woods (big Giuliani supporter), or Gary Sinise (yup!), altho I’ll give Breitbart’s crew some props, in that they are discouraged from talking much about their politics given the industry they are in. But it doesn’t make them an oppressed minority.
Yes, back in the day, when I was hanging out at CBGB’s in 1978
Debiie Harry used to refuse tips at Max’s, since she felt they were a form of welfare.
“If Johnny Cash was punk, so was NWA.”
I can get behind that hypothesis actually.
Also, Richard Hell was a supply-sider BEFORE the Voidoids when he was playing with Tom Verlaine. Verlaine was a well known Kensyan, and the conflict played out in their early collaborations. Hell then went on to join the Reagan Revolution, much to the disdain of Mr. Verlaine.
I think McCain and Palin would have won if they’d starred in a video of the Dead Milkmen’s “Punk Rock Girl.”
Hail the new Punk mantra-
Screw your change.
If there is anything more punk than wanting stuff stay the way they are (or perhaps regress back to what they were like in the 50’s), I don’t know what it is.
Johnny Pez, Objectivist Punk Rock, w00t etc
“I think I figured it out– the Republicans are “straight-edge” punk rock.”
Eh. I don’t know. Ian MacKaye might have something to say about that.
Why should I bow down to anyone’s agenda if I don’t agree with everything? Why should anyone?
Why don’t we live in The Land of Do-As-You-Please? Wahhh!
I think straight edge is the only punk subculture lame and pointless enough to ever be compared to republicanism.
But wait.
Nothing is more republican than selling out
Nothing is more punk than selling out
So republicans are punks.
No wait, that doesn’t make sense, let me try again..
Punks love whining about how nothing is punk enough, and they are the only one true punk.
Republicans love whining about how nothing is republican enough, and they are the only one true republican.
Therefore, republicans = punks!
No, still not quite right. Let me try right.
Punk rock isn’t dead, it just smells that way.
Republicanism is dead, and it smells too.
Ergo, punk = republicanism!
Pah. You need a BS in debating from Bob Jones University to manage to justify that kind of comparison!
BTW, is TenNipples related to Gazza’s mate Jimmy ‘Five Bellies’ Gardner?
> And James Newell Osterberg, Jr never was any Rob Tyner
Iggy is one of my most favorite faves…I used to live in the apartment complex right next to the famous trailer park that he grew up in. I actually met his dad who still lived there (in the late 70’s).
This was Ypsilanti, Michigan. It is known as “Ypsitucki” for all the rednex who migrated there during and after WWII for jobs at at the giant plants in Willow Run making bombers.
Doug Ten Apples Short Of A Bushel
Elvis=Rock=Anti-Establishment
But rock cannot be both establishment and anti-establishment
Therefore this never happened.
Bonus:
Been to any Republican rallies Dougie? You woulda earned more street cred with the academics if you had ended your rant with “Drill, Baby, Drill!”
BTW, an insane string of coincidental links in my surfing this AM:
1st: youtube video of the suburu guy from She said, She above, which led to…
2: youtube vid of that guy in Secretary having iccky sex with Maggie Gyllenhaal, which led to…
2a: memories that my first serious GF was a deadringer for Maggie Gyllenhaal – ahhhh, which led to…
3: youtube vid of sex scene in American Beauty, which led to…
4: youtube vid of trailer from American Beauty, featuring the cover of NIN Hurt by —– Johnny Cash (no clue beforehand on the music)
Yeeepssshh….
Yikes, this comment over there says it all:
milly balgeary – January 31st, 2009 at 4:33 pm
milly balgeary – January 31st, 2009 at 4:33 pm
as a single mother of three children who are in their ‘tweens’ this story brings tears to my heart i ofen tell my oldest son dean to throw out the rap! and let in the nuge! only buy american and no liveral arts in my house or he can find another place to live. my 15 year old daughtr waw into the beatles but i asked her to listen to ted nugent a few times because he’s both a christian and a conservative rock n roller and i had to threatend hr with moving the heck out and finding her own way but now she loves nugent and weve writen letters to him and sent him pictures
If the only way to be cool is to not have control of the three branches of the American government, this Democrat is willing to be called square by Doug TenNapel. It’s a helluva sacrifice, but I think of Valley Forge and George Washington. I bet Washington didn’t lie awake at night and worry about whether wooden teeth were catching on with the young’uns.
Nothing more punk than threatening to throw out your children because they don’t listen to your old shitty music.
> no liveral arts in my house
She must be referring to the havoc excessive alcoholic intake does to the liver – she is warning her kids to not be drunk losers like she is.
The best comment is the one praising 3 Doors Down as a conservative punk band.
I mean fucking seriously.
no liveral arts in my house
So much for my pate sculpture of a swan…
weve writen letters to him and sent him pictures
That might be why he’s never acknowledged them, milly. Next time, leave the tank tops up.
no liveral arts in my house or he can find another place to live.
I worked at a corporate record store when I was 21 or 22. Technically, store policy was to not sell cd’s with the “Explicit Lyrics” tag to kids under 16. Given that it was not illegal to make the sale, that most 16 year olds don’t have proof of age, and that I generally didn’t give a shit about store policy, I sold whatever was brought to the register to whoever wanted to purchase it.
Sometimes this resulted in angry parents bringing their kids and the album back to the store and angrily demanding a refund. (It could go the other way, too; sometimes parents would come in and complain because they didn’t have time to make their kids’ record purchases for them.) One night a woman comes in with her kid, who was probably 12 or 13 and decked out in PacSun skater chic. I’d sold him the latest Blink-182 or Good Charlotte or whatever castrated “punk” was out at the time.
I gave her a refund, but she was one of those people who can’t shut the fuck up and always needs to tell everyone just how fucking outraged she is and bitched at me through the whole transaction. She didn’t want her kid to have the cd because he wasn’t allowed to hear anything “profound” in her house. I was pretty sure that wasn’t a problem.
Something had to happen in 1977, but not punk–at least not the way it turned out. If you don’t like Rick Wakeman, that’s fine (he was rarely as good solo as with Yes, anyway), 😉 but there’s always gonna be bad music. The problem was with the industry, not the style.
Besides, there might’ve been conservative post-hippies (like, um, Rick Wakeman), but at least there weren’t radical right-wing post-hippies.
i asked her to listen to ted nugent a few times because he’s both a christian and a conservative rock n roller
Wasn’t The Nuge a serial philanderer and a draft-dodger?
And his “wife” wasn’t much older than that 15-year old when he decided to a) act as her legal guardian and then b) fuck her.
Then again, what rock-and-roll artist back then wasn’t skirting that razor-thin line between pedophilia and statutory rape?
I can’t believe nobody’s mentioned that old spoken-word sketch Jello Biafra did about a yonk and a half ago where he said Walter Mondale was like heavy metal, and suggested that a great name for a metal band would be “Mondale.” (“Have you seen Deep Purple? They all look just like Walter Mondale!”) I think that was the same sketch where he said that metal was so conformist, “even Republicans can’t get that many people to dress so alike.”
I find the comparison quite compelling, except male metalheads tend to be skinny gangly guys with sinewy arms, and I’m not sure there are all that many male Republicans out there who even have necks, let alone sinewy arms. (Have you ever noticed how modern male Republicans seem to be splitting the same three necks among them?)
That may or may not have been the same stream-of-consciousness rap that led to Islamic speed metal, or it may not have. If I were religious, I’d be praying for Jello to start an Islamic speed metal band now, just to cause these guys to wet their collective (or ruggedly individualistic, as the case may be) pants. That’d keep me in chuckles for the next decade or so…
You might as well complain about any social scene. Plainly JB only thinks that way because he doesn’t like Deep Purple.
what rock-and-roll artist back then wasn’t skirting that razor-thin line between pedophilia and statutory rape?
John Lennon married his mom, so there’s one.
There’s room for Republican punks in some wee crescent of the Venn diagram in which straightedge overlaps with Nazi overlaps with Blink-182.
[Damn, I put this on the wrong thread…]
This “Republican=Punk Rock” nonsense is getting out of hand.
I was there at ground zero of punk on the West Coast, the Mabuhay Gardens in San Francisco cicra 1977. And at the core, Punk was as non-political as a rock-based musical genre can be, except for the attitude of “fuck off and die, stupid politician assholes. And blow me. Who’s got the quaaludes?”
Sure, there were a few starry-eyed college students who came along about a year or so after the whole movement was beginning to go on the skids (once the MSM can tie a label to you, you stop being cutting edge, so sorry) who tried to tie it all to some vaguely “political” culture of mostly kindergarten Marxism and “liberation”, but aside from them and their dorm mates in freshly washed black jeans with shiny new safety pins in them, real punks couldn’t give a rat’s ass. “We’re pretty vacant, and we don’t care.”
Punks hated stock brokers as much as they hated hippies.
It’s all summed up by the quintessential punk of the cinema, Johnny from “The Wild Bunch”:
“What are you rebelling against?”
“Whadda ya got?”
[from other thread, too]
Joe Max,
Wouldn’t you agree, tho, that people like Patty Smith and Jello Biafra made political statements and that those statements, while clearly anti-establishment, became more virulent against conservatives than liberals?
That’s my recollection, particularly of some of the spoken word pieces that Smith recited around NYU.
The Shaggs! Greatest Band EVAH!
(Except for maybe The Waitresses.)
Is Arlo Guthrie punk-rock?
Arlo is at least 100 times as punk as Walter Mondale. HTH.
Dang, I used to enjoy playing Earthworm Jim back in the day, so it actually saddens me a little to see that TenNapel bought a one-way ticket to Limbaugh Land. Bad enough that Mike Nelson lives there.
I was around the scene then and I don’t remember her – did she write for Search and Destroy or Punk Globe?
For that matter, I don’t remember Jane Hamscher either, except maybe as part of the amorphous cloud of hangers-on from the suburbs that invaded the Fab Mab after the Sex Pistols got spotted by the MSM around mid-1977 or so.
As soon as the words “New Wave” were uttered, Punk rolled over and died of embarrassment.
I’m sure all you punk rockers are lamenting the coronation of the epitome of the establishment, Mister Barack, The Man, Obama. Just imagine, you could have instead had that anti-establishment, down-with-government firebrand John Sidney McCain the Third. Admit it, you regret not being able to revel in the age of absolute anarchy that Punk Rocking McCain would have ushered in.
If I was going to be really picky about it, Patti was proto-Punk and the DKs were the first round of post-Punk.
Patti was cool because she was of a Punk sensibility before it had a name. Patti didn’t get “political” until the 1980s and Dream of Life. I blame it on that old fuckin’ hippie she married, Fred “Sonic” Smith of the MC5.
The Dead Kennedys were part of the aforementioned amorphous cloud of former suburban kids and art school geeks (most especially from the San Francisco Art Institute) who tried to take the original gestalt of West Coast Punk – a rebellion against everything in a spasm of existential nihilism – and twisted it into a rebellion against specifics, which for the art school crowd the target was the “establishment” neo-liberal politics, same target as when they were lefty hippies, only a year or so before they picked up guitars after watching the first Punks like Crime (my band), The Germs, The Nuns, The Screamers and Mary Monday blasting loud, atonal music from the stage about the pointlessness of life, the universe and everything.
The DKs were “second wave”, so to speak. But since by 1978-79 when they came on the scene most of the audience was made up of ex-hippies like themselves, they prospered and now get associated with what “Punk” is supposedly all about.
The genuine Punk attitude about politics is: “FUCK stupid politics.”
(But as far as the Punk attitude toward abortion goes, I offer the band with once of the greatest band names ever: The Fried Abortions. Now that’s Punk Rock!)
TenNapel strikes me as exactly the sort of person that crashes college parties and tries to strike up conversations by loudly announcing things like “Johnny Cash was punk rock!”, at which the room temporarily quiets down, followed by people pointedly looking away from him and whispering to each other, “Who invited the creepy old dude?”
Ever see that completely embarrassing poem Cash had on the back of one of Dylan’s albums? Not punk at all, although he had the ability to scarf down lotsa pills.
Maybe he means Johnny Crash.
Joe Max: Nice, but still trumped by Scraping Foetus Off The Wheel.
Wouldn’t you agree, tho, that people like Patty Smith and Jello Biafra made political statements and that those statements, while clearly anti-establishment, became more virulent against conservatives than liberals?
That would be because conservatives are, by definition, more virulently pro-establishment than liberals.
Duh.
Man, the Nuns were dark. Super dark.
I’m a big fan of early Yes (The Yes album, Fragile, Close to the Edge–hell, even Going for the One), but I’ll take the Clash and Talking Heads 77 any day over Wakeman’s pompous art crap.
I remember the days when almost every American punk record would have a rousing anthem in support of Jimmy Carter. Bands that did not conform to the ethos were considered shirkers by their hard-working fellow punkers.
You know, I’ve heard that “real punk was limited to a specific counterculture at a specific time in a specific place with a specific philosophy, and all other punk is hippie poseurism” a lot of times, applied to a lot of different places and scenes throughout the US and England and times from the early ’70s to the early ’80s. And it’s always struck me as the kind of wanky scenesterism that the Real Punks ™ would have spat on.
Hardcore is cursed with the same kind of petty exclusionism. I got in a near fist fight some time ago with a genius who insisted that Bad Brains were neither hardcore nor punk because of that “reggae shit.”
Also, this is as punk rock as Johnny Cash.
Johnny Cash was punk rock.
Maybe so, but I’ll bet he would have kicked your ass if you called him a Republican to his face.
And it’s always struck me as the kind of wanky scenesterism that the Real Punks ™ would have spat on.
I dunno, it’s hard to imagine anything more punk than a dissertation about what is and isn’t punk.
I’d trust it if it was written by an actual Scotsman. FROM SCOTLAND.
i asked her to listen to ted nugent a few times because he’s both a christian and a conservative rock n roller
So does Wang Dang Sweet Poontang qualify as Christian, convervative, or both?
So does Wang Dang Sweet Poontang qualify as Christian, convervative, or both?
Both – if you play it backwards, it says “Wetsuit Dildo rah rah rah.”
Scraping Foetus Off The Wheel
Holy shit, I remember him! Some really strange shit!
Now this shit is definitely punk as fuck … although it’d fit pretty well in the previous “consumerism” thread too.
Punk’s not a sound so much as an attitude.
Punks: loud obnoxious aggro dickheads who I can’t stand to listen to for more than about 30 seconds.
So you’re a punk.
Sid and Blartcy
I pity The Fool. Really, I do.
I like to imagine what pre-punk bands would have sounded like if they had been fortunate enough to come along during the punk ascendancy instead of during the ludicrously self indulgent hippie era. Some of them might have sucked a whole lot less. The Who for example would have bought into the scene and would never have gotten into that stupid ass rock opera bullshit. Daltry would have stood out as even more of a phony than he was in the 60s but they might have been able to overcome that. The Beatles would still have sucked. Lennon might have been a eager punk but McCartney would have just been happy to fake it for as long as doing so remained profitable. I could just see him coming into the studio in 1981 with skinny black ties for the whole group. What a dick.
You’re finally right about something. Of course they wouldn’t have existed if a corrective wasn’t necessary. But it was and in a sense I guess we should all be grateful for that need. I would hate to live in a world without punk and punks. Thank you pre-punk rock music for sucking so badly.
We really need it back. Anyone passing through Hell, please let us know if you see it.
I don”t know many punks who worship Jerry Garcia and know more than 3 chords.
See? I rest my case, since you clearly do neither.
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, the Beatles sucked. They only changed the face of the world’s music…
Lennon might have been a eager punk but McCartney would have just been happy to fake it for as long as doing so remained profitable. I could just see him coming into the studio in 1981 with skinny black ties for the whole group. What a dick.
McCartney would have been kicked out of the band for liking Glen Matlock too much!
Fakest fake troll ever.
I mean fuck, you’re not even trying.
If Johnny Cash was punk, so was NWA.
In England’s Dreaming, Jon Savage did characterize Rap as “the black punk” (along with Bart Simpson and the rash of awesome bootleg Black Barts). He largely meant the DIY approach, and the low bar to entry as far as equipment and musicality were concerned. More recently, though, he had this to say about the current hippity-hop artists.
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, the Beatles sucked. They only changed the face of the world’s music…
You know who else changed the face of the world? Hitler. Just sayin’.
Hey, anybody else suspect that TenNapel is trying to pass himself off as
Tenpole Tudor?
I accepted Jerry Garcia into my heart as my Lord and Savior
Well, there’s your problem right there!
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, the Beatles sucked. They only changed the face of the world’s music…
You know who else changed the face of the world? Hitler. Just sayin’.
So you’re saying the Beatles really WERE punk! 😉
Really wish I had a comeback, I do.
So do I, Fool. I pity you!
The Beatles would still have sucked.
Yeah. Fuckin’ Beatles. What a suck-ass group. What did they ever do? Whom did they ever influence?
Nothing more “punk” than the old, rich, sweaty, overweight racist southern fucks with steel-frame glasses who run the GOP.
Of course, to these assholes, “The Simpsons” is punk.
I hate when even people who are actually using it in a contextually defensible manner use “punk rock” as an adjective, so needless to say Doug’s opening sentence almost made me fall into a permanent coma.
I realize this is a thread about music, and I love music, but somebody repeated erroneous baseball conventional wisdom AND I CANNOT LET THAT STAND!!!!
actor212 said:
“[Darryl Strawberry] ended up being (on a career basis) a less-than-mediocre baseball player”
You might want to take a second look at his career stats. Strawberry has a career slugging percentage over .500, is 29th all time in at bats per home run, and was an eight-time All-Star. Plus that episode of the Simpsons he was on was fucking hilarious.
Did Darryl live up to his potential? No. But “on a career basis” he spent half of it as a star, a quarter of it was basically wasted because of his personal problems, and the balance was spent as a very valuable role player for the Yankees. It was only in his last couple years in LA, when he was really getting out of control, that he wasn’t an asset on the baseball field. If you took his career stats and gave them to a scrappy white guy who went to church every Sunday, didn’t drink, and never cheated on his wife, there would probably be a few people saying he should be in the Hall of Fame (they’d be wrong, but point stands).
“Had someone gotten thru to him, I have no doubt he’d be holding the major league career home run record, not Barry Bonds”
As good as Darryl Strawberry was at squandering talent I doubt he squandered almost 500 home runs’ worth of it. The mere fact that he spent many of his physical-prime seasons playing in Shea Stadium in the homer-unfriendly ’80s would’ve made beating Aaron, or even Willie Mays, almost impossible.
Baseball analogies encouraged, accuracy appreciated 🙂
Oh and actor212’s analogy still works perfectly fine. It’s just that Darryl Strawberry didn’t suck as much as everyone always says he did, is all.
I was there back in ’75 the Fool is right. Puck Funk.
Punk was for students who wanted to have a band but couldn’t play. And that sort of defines Patti Smith.
but Fool, just to keep you down off your hind legs, I never liked the Dead either. And anybody who wasn’t sentient and ahd an AM radio in 1963 is not allowed to say anything about the Beatles. Period.
And anybody who wasn’t sentient and ahd an AM radio in 1963 is not allowed to say anything about the Beatles. Period.
Thank you!
lawnguylander: You are dead to me.
LOL I cannot believe it took the frakkin’ Beatles for this thread to go Godwin. It’s funny how much blowback they get these days but play Rubber Soul, Revolver, and Sgt. Pepper’s back-to-back-to-back and I defy anybody to name a better trifecta in any pop music artist’s career than that.
I was thinking of making a few observations about Blind Lemon Jefferson, Robert Johnson, and Lucille Bogan, but I wasn’t around when they records first came out, so I decided against it.
I wish Republicans were punks. Then they could take the advice in my favorite Russian punk song, ‘Don’t Vote.’
Those three albums had some stinkers. For importance, sure, but…
Brian Eno’s solo pop records – the first four in a row – are consistently better. David Bowie’s Berlin stretch to Scary Monsters is a better four albums. The first three Big Star albums are better. The middle five Hüsker Dü albums are better. The second through fourth Replacements albums were better. The first three Stooges records were better. Prince made better trios of records. Fleetwood Mac had better stretches. Tom Waits is on a perpetual roll.
I suppose I could dig through the collection and get more obscure but there’s not much point in arguing about the Sun City Girls.
You might want to take a second look at his career stats. Strawberry has a career slugging percentage over .500, is 29th all time in at bats per home run, and was an eight-time All-Star.
I’m still not sure how this disagrees with what I said: Strawberry, given his talent, was mediocre. He had HoF talent, but HoShame attitude.
As for eight time All Star, I’d chalk that up more to the team around him than his own play. Yes, he was a 40-40 man, yes, he could hit the crap out of a ball (I remember one HR he hit at Shea that nearly took down the scoreboard…hardest ball I’d seen hit since Dave Kingman), but like Dave Kingman, he was a crappy fielder who could have worked much harder at his craft than he did.
He also had Gary Carter and Keith Hernanedez riding him relentlessly. As his stats with the Dodgers and Yankees proved, once that was gone, so was any chance he had of being a legitimate star.
Brian Eno’s solo pop records – the first four in a row – are consistently better. David Bowie’s Berlin stretch to Scary Monsters is a better four albums. The first three Big Star albums are better. The middle five Hüsker Dü albums are better. The second through fourth Replacements albums were better. The first three Stooges records were better. Prince made better trios of records. Fleetwood Mac had better stretches. Tom Waits is on a perpetual roll.
I have a feeling our record/CD collections are remarkably similar, RB. Although Sun City Girls used to bug the shit out of me.
You may know more than three chords, Fool, but you certainly are Johnny One-Note on this blog. Give it a rest fergodsake.
Brian Eno’s solo pop records – the first four in a row – are consistently better.
Nevertheless, his voice sounds just like Ringo’s. Which only adds to their charm.
That article was obviously written by someone who hasn’t a clue what it means to be punk. Punk is crawling across the bathroom floor in CBGBs to lick up some coke that you spilled. Punk is rushing the stage to beat the hell out of the lead singer after he projectile vomited on the audience. Punk is waking up in a wrecked motel room and not being able to remember what happened the night before… or the night before for the last 6 months.
Punk is not anti-what ever party is in power. Punk is anti-every asshole who has ANY power. Punk is anti-everything.
play Rubber Soul, Revolver, and Sgt. Pepper’s back-to-back-to-back and I defy anybody to name a better trifecta in any pop music artist’s career than that.
Yeah, I felt the same way… when I was 8.
Without the “prepunk” bands, moron, reactionary punk would never have existed.
Most people would follow up an accusation of limited intelligence with a word that was used correctly.
But not hippies!
Brian Eno’s first four solo albums were released between 1973 and 1977. Rubber Soul, Revolver and Sgt. Pepper were released over a period of 18 months. (Plus they’d already done Help! a few months before Rubber Soul, and then a few months after Sgt. Pepper they produced Magical Mystery Tour.) Just sayin’.
The Beatles’ pioneering work helped enable creativity and experimental artistic endeavors that came afterward. And the Beatles were the first to say that Chuck Berry, Elvis, Buddy Holly, and others paved the way for their work.
Comparisons of musical preferences is boring and useless. Let’s just declare once and for all that the Beatles rule now and forever and that’s the end of it. 🙂
I really like those Beatles records and some of those songs I can listen to anytime anywhere, and there’s no denying the influence and innovation. It’s just that there are albums and sequences of albums that are better all the way through since they didn’t have George.
I love George. I used to fast-forward through his Indian stuff when I was a kid, but not after I studied Buddhism.
George’s sister Louise said the greatest love affair of the 20th century was between the Beatles and their fans. I heart her too.
It’s just that there are albums and sequences of albums that are better all the way through since they didn’t have George.
Um, huh?
The Beatles, which may have been one of their few flaws, always gave George and Ringo at least one spotlight on every album.
But look at the track list for Rubber Soul:
1. “Drive My Car” – 2:30
2. “Norwegian Wood (This Bird Has Flown)” – 2:05
3. “You Won’t See Me” – 3:22
4. “Nowhere Man” – 2:44
5. “Think for Yourself” (Harrison) – 2:19
6. “The Word” – 2:43
7. “Michelle” – 2:42
1. “What Goes On” (Lennon, McCartney, Starkey) – 2:50
2. “Girl” – 2:33
3. “I’m Looking Through You” – 2:27
4. “In My Life” – 2:27
5. “Wait” – 2:16
6. “If I Needed Someone” (Harrison) – 2:23
7. “Run for Your Life” – 2:18
Replaceable songs in italics. Can’t say I remember “Wait” at all “Run for Your Life” is just creepy.
You put “Girl” and “What Goes On” in italics? OK, that’s just wrong.
I believe you’ve just conceded four songs.
play Rubber Soul, Revolver, and Sgt. Pepper’s back-to-back-to-back
“Back-toback”? Pshaw. The real test is how well they sound when you play them all at the same time.
The Flaming Lips – who have also had some fine back-to-backs – released a four CD set to be played at once on four different players. I haven’t heard it, but a friend’s got it and loves it.
Wasn’t for The Beatles wouldn’t be no Eno, Bowie or HuskerDu. Putting Fleetwood Mac in there, as better than the Beatles (and I’m talking about the Peter Green-Danny Kirwan days, too) just makes you sound like TeNapel talking about punk. Hell, why not throw in Savoy Brown and Moby Grape.
And Johnny was rebelling against anything you got in “The Wild One” not the “Wild Bunch” That was punk William Holden
So what? Doesn’t speak to the quality of an individual record.
I believe you’ve just conceded four songs.
A reasonable person can (maybe) argue the case against those four. But including “Girl” and “What Goes On” in that list is the Mother of All Offenses Against Reason Times Infinity. Obviously.
Assuming that you’re correct, there exist albums without four throwaway songs. Sometimes by the same artist, sometimes in a row.
Wasn’t for The Beatles wouldn’t be no Eno, Bowie or HuskerDu.
I always thought Greg Norton bore an unusual resemblance to Ringo.
From Wiki:
Rubber Soul is often cited as one of the greatest albums in pop music history. In 1998, Q magazine readers voted it the 40th greatest album of all time, while in 2000 the same magazine placed it at number 2 in its list of the 100 Greatest British Albums Ever.[13] In 2001, VH1 placed it at number 6.[14] In 2003, the album was ranked number 5 on Rolling Stone magazine’s list of the 500 greatest albums of all time.[1] In 2006, the album was chosen by Time magazine as one of the 100 best albums of all time.[15]
You have at least three songs on that list of “throwaways” that most people would disagree with you about:
Girl, Think For Yourself (come on, the fuzz bass alone makes it better than anything Jerry Garcia ever wrote!), and If I Needed Someone.
Versions of “If I Needed…” have been included in at least four live albums and was the only song off Rubber Soul the Beatles ever played in concert consistently.
Girl is the predecessor to Lennon’s “Woman” and is one of his best solo efforts with the Beatles, and features John taking hits off a doobie!
As for the rest of your choices, well, tell you what: you name me one album where all thirteen or fourteen songs on it was a certified gold record hit.
I mean, of course, except for the Beatles. 😉
George Martin has in recent years expressed regret that he didn’t devote as much time and attention to producing George Harrison’s songs and he did to Paul and John’s. Not that George’s gifts were in the Lennon-McCartney category, but I think his solo and other post-Beatle work still hold up better than Paul’s or John’s.
Wasn’t for The Beatles wouldn’t be no Eno, Bowie or HuskerDu.
Not true, The Beach Boys made an overproduced, highly technical and virtuoso album (ie, something you couldn’t reproduce by just picking up a guitar and learning to play) before The Beatles made Sgt. Pepper’s. It was Pet Sounds that first begged for Eno, Bowie and Mould (and their ilk) to bring rock back to its roots.
Not that Pet Sounds or Sgt. Peppers are bad (they’re actually both rather awe inspiring), but they introduced the monster rock studio album that came to dominate pop rock for the next decade. John Lennon had Chuck Berry on the radio to learn from; Easy, fun, engageable. Joe Strummer had Pink fucking Floyd; Difficult, boring, pretentious.
there exist albums without four throwaway songs
I have several in my own very modest CD collection. To me, they still don’t match Rubber Soul, throwaways and all.
Actually John Lennon didn’t have Chuck Berry “on the radio” to listen to in post-WWII Liverpool, England. He and the boys had to wait for smuggled-in records off the docks and then play them repeatedly, trying out their imitations on homemade band-boxes and cheap secondhand four-string guitars. And this Joe Strummer fellow you speak of could also have listened to Chuck Berry if he’d wanted to. On the radio, or a stereo of some sort, I imagine.
Now I’ve heard it all. Pink Floyd is difficult?? (For yours truly, “difficult” starts at Gentle Giant and Zappa, and maybe parts of King Crimson–not forgetting Canterbury bands like Hatfield And The North and National Health, essentially the same band in the end.), I’ll give you “boring”, but really that just means it bored you, and sometimes me.) No wonder punk had such a hard time of it.
OTOH, why can’t we have both? Oh, I forgot–because punks don’t like it.
But wait–I thought punk was ANTI-EVERYTHING! So they must be against Chuck Berry.
But wait, part II–surely Joe Strummer had Chuck Berry to learn from, too, which makes sense since the Clash’s music, like most punk, is in the end so reactionary (The Fool may be making things a little too simple, and though they do me no harm I’m no particular fan of the Dead, but he’s much more right than wrong). I mean, the people who invented punk must’ve liked SOMETHING before then, no?
Ergo, punk is self-contradictory. Q.E.D. or something.
Oh, BTW, is punk also against people who don’t have power?
I recall Jello’s Black Oak Arkansas belt buckle.
Of note: Sex Pistols demos later collected on The Great Rock ‘n’ Roll Swindle.
“Johnny B Goode” (Chuck Berry) – 2:36
“Roadrunner” (Jonathan Richman) – 3:47
“Substitute” (Pete Townshend) – 3:10
“Don’t Give Me No Lip, Child” (Don Thomas / Jean Thomas / Barry Richards) – 3:27
“(I’m Not Your) Steppin’ Stone” (Tommy Boyce, Bobby Hart) – 3:06
Aww, MzNicky,
I’m going to reply in code so that The Fool won’t understand. Preemptive FYWP in case this doesn’t work.
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As for great stretchs of records that I prefer to that Beatles trifecta, I concur with RB on everything except Fleetwood Mac and Brian Eno (only have Warm Jets but I know what I’m downloading next) and I add:
Bob Marley and the Wailers, between 1970 and 1980 it’s hard to pick just 3 but, Catch a Fire, African Herbsman and Burnin’.
Public Enemy, It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back, Fear of a Black Planet, Apocalypse 91
Outkast, Atliens, Aquemini, Stankonia.
Pixies, Surfer Rosa, Doolittle, Bossanova.
Almost Blue keeps Elvis Costello off my list.
Did you just type that backwards or did you use Unicode to switch the text direction?
Neither, it was a javascript.
http://www.java-scripts.net/javascripts/Backwards-Text-Converter.phtml
I also found one that did it upside down and backwards but I thought that as far as The Fool is concerned that was overkill and I’d feel bad if he tried to read it standing on his head and then fell over and hurt himself.
lawnguylander: Whew. That’s good cuz I always kinda liked ya, ya big lug.
Simba B: When I first learned to write I wrote from right to left in mirror-image. (Thus I had little difficulty reading lawnguylander’s super-secret spy-code.) I can still do it — in cursive, Gregg shorthand, on an Etch-a-Sketch, whatever. I think my second-grade teacher recommended institutionalization, but I always just chalked it up to being left-handed. And perhaps gifted, or whatever, in a completely ridiculous way.
I think the upside down one does use Unicode and will result in a FYWP. I seem to remember trying it here once before.
I like Jeff Beck’s cover of “A Day in the Life.”
I was around the scene then and I don’t remember her – did she write for Search and Destroy or Punk Globe?
Damage and later, Ego, actually.
For that matter, I don’t remember Jane Hamscher either, except maybe as part of the amorphous cloud of hangers-on from the suburbs that invaded the Fab Mab after the Sex Pistols got spotted by the MSM around mid-1977 or so.
Jane Hamsher hung around the Mab? No kidding. I had no idea she was that old.
As soon as the words “New Wave” were uttered, Punk rolled over and died of embarrassment.
As I recall, in the 70s before the term came to mean slick power-pop with skinny ties, “new wave” basically meant what we now refer to as “post-punk” Anything that wasn’t strictly punk but was part of the overall shift, from Pere Ubu to Mink DeVille and everything in between.. Even Mark E. Smith used the term for what they were doing at the time. Then “new wave” quickly came to mean what we think of it as meaning now, and it was very embarrassing to have to say, “no that’s not what I meant”.
Of course, by now, “new wave” seems to mean, say, Depeche Mode.
The Sex Pistols demo list makes a lot of sense. Four pre-hippie-era tunes and a throwback. This is what The Fool was talking about; punk and conservatism are both throwback movements, ultimately, and they’re both very full of themselves about not much and demand that they be the sole arbiters of everything.
Pixies, Surfer Rosa, Doolittle, Bossanova.
I still stand by my original statement, but DAYAM….those are indeed some mighty fine recordings.
In the words of the great philosopher, Lux Interior:
You ain’t no punk, you punk.
You wanna talk about the real junk?
Stick out your can.
I’m the garbageman!
I have some bad news.
That’s fairly dumb: those songs are all really easy to play, the Chuck Berry one probably learned straight from a book. I also don’t recall roving gangs of punks beating up others; rather they remain quite good at getting beaten up by local arbiters of tradition.
I’d like to suggest, apropos of little, that Prince’s Sign O’ the Times is a greater achievement than Rubber Soul/Revolver as well as more enjoyable to listen to.
And it’s nice to see a little love thrown out for Apocalypse ’91. I was just listening to that the other day and wondering why it seems to have been forgotten.
Rusty: You may suggest it, but you’d be wrong. Just wrong wrong wrongity wrong.
It was merely a suggestion. I love the Beatles too, but pretty much only Sgt. Pepper’s forward.
Ah Doug Tennapel. The gems are always worth mining.
This is the same kneejerk douchebag that, back when he was rolling his political rants on his tennapel.com site, advocated McCain be killed by a terrorist bomb blast because at the time Grampa 7 Houses was voting against Bush’s torture policies.
Fucker is as demented, theocratic and incoherent as they come.
Johnny Rotten sold out and is selling butter on TV
GOP is THE party for sellouts
ergo, GOP is a s punk as Johnny
I think I’ve listened to “Jim Dandy to the Rescue” about 30 times since posting that.