New Wingnut Of The Week,™ Humanitarian Edition

As usual, when Israel starts blowing things up, the wingnut reaction proceeds in three stages.

First, stand on an upended bucket and honk a horn in glee. Then, in glee presented as worry or sadness, accuse those who question Israel’s actions of anti-Semitism and support for terrorism (or whatever else you can think of).

And then when the discourse is appropriately smoked up and confounded, it’s time to proceed to the attacks on journalists, relief workers, NGOs, civilian victims of military actions, Americans with ethnic and cultural ties to the country being blown up, and Juan Cole, not to mention Jimmy Carter and the criminally unstrewn bones of Edward Said — the grave of whom is chronically undug by steam shovels and insufficiently spattered with raging asparagus pee.

Last week while I was physically located roughly here, they took advantage of the lull in futile gainsaying and launched one of their joyously outraged, evidence-lawyering attacks on a medical doctor working in Gaza.

Shame on you, Dr. Mads Gilbert

Yeah, Dr. Mads Gilbert, you accused radical-Marxist Hamas associate of terror crimes! The deranged perfidy of your questioned behavior, as caught on several seconds of video, eradicates all credibility of leftist-liberal Muslim treason apologists, who lie through their media mouthpieces about so-called “civilian casualties” of Israel’s defense of civilization in the Long War against the Muslamofascist terror Holocaust!

I’ve been watching Israel’s attempt to stop Hamas’ terrorist attacks against it…

Okay, wait. Because in case you haven’t been following these narrative threads over the years, Israel is being threatened with literal extinction by Hamas and its homemade terror rockets for no reason in particular, except for the fact that, as fair and bipartisan analysts have long cautioned, Hamas is an evil murder/suicide pathology that is driven by the hate-maddened death cult of the Islamic moon devil. Furthermore, liberal fool-traitors who are blinded by the historic liberal/leftist hatred of the Jews do not realize — or perhaps realize all too well — that Hamas also “wants to kill us,” which makes them and their lackeys a literal threat to the continued physical existence of the US, not to mention Europe, which continent their terror allies are already literally controlling through a secret invasion conducted via the planned generational outbreeding of white people.

Where are we? Oh, right. Also, Iran is known to be able, with or without the testimony of objective evidence, to develop a nuclear power plant, ahem, totally equals doomsday weapon, within perhaps some number of years — meaning that just to be sure, we should immediately exterminate the entire Muslim population of the world, perhaps in a general nuclear sterilization of the entire Middle East except for Israel, with the concomitant rounding-up of all Semites of non-Jewish affiliation into camps, along with all the illegal aliens and so on. Also, Jimmy Carter is a traitor for confirming the well-known fact that Israel has for decades had nuclear weapons, and in order to ‘send a message,’ we should kill him.

Excuse me for not linking to an example of each of these points, but I’ve been doing that habitually for years, being of no particular talent and having nothing else to do but work hard at dumb things, whereas all day long Abe Foxman of the memorably reputed Anti-Defamation League goes biddy-biddy-bum.

But fine, yes, I’m just mad because when I was growing up, there used to be a group in America called “the Jews,” who converted the lessons of political oppression into a moral imperative toward justice, a light of universalism unto the world. Yet here are all these people going ya-ha deedle-deedle, bubba-bubba deedle-deedle-dum.

I’ve been watching Israel’s attempt to stop Hamas’ terrorist attacks against it…

We were told there would be. . .Oh, never mind.

I’ve been watching Israel’s attempt to stop Hamas’ terrorist attacks against it with even more than my usual interest because of…

Oh heck, because that reminds us: Last night we were watching part of the Baltimore Ravens’ attempt to stop the Tennessee Titans’ unjustified and malicious attacks against them, but eventually it got boring, and so we got to hitting a dog with a stick saying “Stop hitting yourself!” over and over. And long story short, we were forced to call Animal Control to have this brutal mad dog euthanized before it got loose and attacked an innocent child.

When they got there we had the dog in a cage and it was making us poke it with the stick again between the bars, and it was then, by their radical pro-rabid-dog complaints and anti-child accusations, that we realized that so-called Animal Control and the ASPCA are actually anti-Semites trying to bring back the Holocaust.

…with even more than my usual interest because of an…

Also, none of this is funny in the least, and your personal moral failure in not denouncing it is literally causing Auschwitz to happen in the past as we speak. When will you stop hitting yourself?

…upcoming speech at the 9th Annual Herzliya Conference on Strategies & Leadership for Times of Crisis in Israel next month.

Watching NBC Nightly News the other night I had my first visual introduction to Dr. Mads Gilbert:

According to Fox News, Dr. Mads Gilbert is a high-profile Norwegian doctor who has said the September 11 terrorists were justified in their attack and is now treating patients in Gaza.

Well, he said something, certainly.

Dr. Gilbert is accused of presenting “hard-core propaganda” to TV interviewers in his telling of the conflict between Hamas and Israel.

Dr. Mads Gilbert has become an unofficial advocate of the Palestinian cause, his critics say.

On this particular NBC News story, Dr. Gilbert was presented as just an ordinary doctor trying to help Palestinians in Gaza. I didn’t think much more about it until I ran across this story on Newsbusters:

They Never Learn: CNN Withdraws Apparently Fake Video of CPR Attempt on “Dead” Palestinian Child:

Not that it ever really went away, but fake news is back in Gaza, and the…

By the way, in case you hadn’t clicked the ‘speech’ link above, our New Wingnut of the Week™ is Michael Brown, now apparently a professional public speaker, but formerly the Judges and Stewards Commissioner for the International Arabian Horse Association, and in the interim the Federal official most closely associated with the destruction, by criminal neglect and incompetence, of the city of New Orleans and surrounding areas.

The video is both funny because it is so fake, and infuriating because Dr. Mads Gilbert, shown on NBC Nightly News as this caring physician just trying to help the Palestinian people, is part of the fakery. All you have to watch is the first 45 seconds of the chest compressions on the child to see the…

He is ‘fisking’ a medical relief worker in Gaza. The title of his post is reproduced again:

Shame on you, Dr. Mads Gilbert

Shame on many of us unto history.

 

Comments: 227

 
 
 

All of those corpses are just faking being dead. As Dr. Gilbert can tell you, they’re actually just pining for the fjords.

 
Leon Trotsky, Exile-in-Mexico
 

Yep, another one of those “ha ha, we found one case where it’s fake! THEREFORE EVERYTHING EVER HAS BEEN A TERRIBLE LIE TO DECEIVE US!”

Come up with some new material, for fuck’s sake.

 
 

Hey, show a little respect for expertise. If anybody knows about fake humanitarian disasters entirely produced by the mainstream liberal media, it’s Michael Brown.

 
 

SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME on anybody who makes any arguments about anything in this thread.

 
 

“SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME on anybody who makes any arguments about anything in this thread.”

So granted this type of asshattery is completely counterproductive, does this mean because of this right-wingtard we no longer can feel there are two sides to this conflict, both having legitimate grievances?

 
 

If you go to Michael Brown’s website, you’ll see a fair number of his “representative speaking engagements” are before government agencies or private organizations that do emergency management or crisis management.

I’ll let that one sink in for a second.

Heckuva job, Brownie, indeed.

 
 

So granted this type of asshattery is completely counterproductive, does this mean because of this right-wingtard we no longer can feel there are two sides to this conflict, both having legitimate grievances?

I believe it means I made a joke, but perhaps not. YMMV.

 
 

First, stand on an upended bucket and honk a horn in glee.

Shame on you for bringing up his sex life.

 
 

Fuck, it’s THE Michael Brown. Surely he should be bobbing up and down in a vast ocean of blood, propelling himself by listlessly windmilling his limbs, not expressing his cunt’s opinions on a blog of shit?

 
 

Heckva prick.

 
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
 

First, stand on an upended bucket and honk a horn in glee.

This is always even more fun when salted with references to “Saint Pancake.”

 
 

I for one am glad to find that this video is a laughable fake. I feel much better knowing that instead of 900+ dead in Gaza, it’s merely 899+ dead. I’m also glad that the treachery of this so-called “Dr.” “Mads” Gilbert has been revealed. Imagine the nerve of this man, trying to pass himself off as a physician in Gaza trying to help the Palestinians, when in reality he’s a pro-Palestinian physician in Gaza trying to help the Palestinians. For shame!

 
 

Michael Brown, now apparently a professional public speaker, but formerly the Judges and Stewards Commissioner for the International Arabian Horse Association…

He ran the IAHA into the ground,* too. Not that horsepeople aren’t totally crazycakes and the big-money shows aren’t corrupt popularity contests, but the Arabian community had so much money flowing into it in the 80s that bankrupting their major breed registry was impressive, and definitely presaged Brown’s later accomplishments in the field of totally fucking up the organization he supposedly led.

*See what I did there?

 
 

Mads Gilbert had the temerity to say: “Dead civilians are the same, whether they are Americans, Palestinians or Iraqis.”

Shame on him! If Michael Brown (who isn’t) didn’t break his dinner plans to save black and poor Americans from drowning and starving to death after a class five hurricane, he had a reason.

Brilliant post, Gavin. I wonder, is “raging asparagus pee” trademarked?

 
 

So granted this type of asshattery is completely counterproductive, does this mean because of this right-wingtard we no longer can feel there are two sides to this conflict, both having legitimate grievances?

Jeesus fucking christ’s tits in a dirty old mason jar, how long is this idiocy going to pretend to be viable?

Look, doofus. NOBODY. NO. BODY. No FUCKING Body is suggesting that both sides don’t have legitimate grievances. Nobody. Can you say that with me?

The issue is with the hideous disproportionality and unnecessary brutality with which the Israeli government has chosen to act upon THEIR grievances.

Do you think, if you REALLY put your mind to it, you could come up with a better response to mostly harmless amateur rocket fire than murdering hundreds of women and children inside a giant concentration camp OF YOUR MAKING?? You think you could?

Do you suppose that there might actually be a MORE PRODUCTIVE solution than bombing apartments and schools and hospitals? Than driving tanks through neighborhoods of people already predisposed by your criminal actions to hate you? Do you really think this is nothing but “self defense”, not politics or even a desire to maintain a permanent state of war?

mikey

 
 

Next mikey’ll be talking about the two sides of the Creed issue.

 
 

echoing Mikey, at least one wingnut managed to understand this without a brain transplant. If I had twenty minutes I could dig it up…it was the national review or powerline, one of those idiotic rags. the wingnut, whose name escapes me, put himself in the shoes of a Palestianian living in an inescapable “corridor” whose family had been bombed to smithereens and suggested Israel can expect retaliation because hello!, who wouldn’t react with rage in this situation?

 
 

Has anybody checked the kerning on those compressions?

 
 

… arrays of blowhards gassing off in chorus …

Gilbert & Sullivan’s “Lost Chord”?

 
 

The fact is, Michael Brown has gotten a bad wrap from liberals who are trying to cover up how bad nutty Nagin was during Katrina, which is the same thing you’ll see in the Obama administration if you don’t watch out. Brown accomplished peace in New Orleans, even though he was fought tooth and nail all along the way by liberals.

 
Smiling Mortician
 

Jesus, Gavin. I think you’re at your very best when your palette is all full of genuinely pissed off.

And of course, what mikey said — but adding that in my experience, there are never only two sides to an issue.

 
 

Me wins the thread in the first comment.

And great stuff, as usual, Gavin. I can’t believe you aren’t employed to write.

 
 

You have to ask for approval for the right to comment at Brownie’s site, but you can leave a message for him while doing so.
I’m tempted to point out that, since Dr. Gilbert is presumably of white European extraction, Brownie is supposed to actually care whether he lives or dies.

 
 

Two sides of the Creed Issue?

One one hand, Creed sucks, but on the other hand, Scott Stapp is an asshat.

 
 

Completely off topic, but in case any of you are unemployed…

Job Offer from Paradise
Duties include cleaning the pool, snorkelling, scuba diving, hiking, uploading images of tropical fish from great barrier reef to a web site, and luxury accommodations. Pay $125,000 for six months “work”.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090112.LWDREAMJOB12//TPStory/Life

 
 

No, no no.

Yeah, Creed’s actual music product is unlistenable (is TOO a word), but it must never be forgotten that Scott Stapp once challenged Fred Durst to a fight.

That, all by itself, and notwithstanding any other contributions to the global level of suck, ensures Mr. Stapp a modicum of honor and respect for all time.

mikey

 
 

Two sides of the Creed Issue?

Wait, there’s actually an issue here? I’m usually a pomo sort who does a lot of questioning the possibility of certainty, but sometimes the universe just up and slaps you in the face, shouting “Creed Sucks” or “Gary Ruppert has a tiny dick.”

 
 

mikey, not knowing about that said challenge from Stapp to Durst, I bounced on over to Wikipedia. The universe up and slapped me in the face, shouting “A concert with both Creed and Limp Bizkit nearly caused me to collapse into a black hole of eternal suck.”

 
Leon Trotsky, Exile-in-Mexico
 

I dunno, Mikey.

I mean, on one hand, Fred Durst is a fuck.

On the other hand, Scott Stapp is a fuck.

One fuck offering to beat up another fuck doesn’t really diminish the amount of fuckhood one fuck possesses.

e.g. Bush offering to smoke bin Ladin out of his hole.

 
 

Good lord that Michael Brown chap is a gibbering fool. And not the only one.

Are these right-wingers so rabid that they can’t be bothered to even vaguely reference reality with their paranoid fantasies?

“The large man in the white coat was NOT performing CPR on that child. He was just sort of tapping on the child’s sternum a little bit with his fingers. You can’t make blood flow like that. Furthermore, there’s no point in doing chest compressions if you’re not also ventilating the patient somehow.”

Sadly, no.

Chest compressions are far more important than ventilating the patient. In fact, increasingly they are recommending NOT doing mouth-to-mouth at all, since chest compressions alone are usually enough, and not everyone will do mouth-to-mouth, and do nothing instead. And for pediatric CPR, they already advise no mouth-to-mouth. It’s too easy to perforate the much smaller lungs with too much breath, and the chest compressions are quite sufficient.

I wouldn’t be surprised if they also misunderstood how compressions are done on small children. Two fingers of one hand is enough. That might look like “tapping” to these mouth-breathing fools.

 
 

I did not know that, mikey.

I totally agree. He just went from ‘terrible’ to ‘terrible, but better than Fred Durst’.

 
 

I hate to expose myself to such filth, but Dan Riehl’s brood are openly calling for concentration camps. Yes, that exact term:

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2009/01/why-the-inconsistencies-in-controversial-cnn-videos.html

This is beyond kerning. They are approaching Rwanda-style calls for slaughter in the media – but only from a safe distance of course. Shitbags.

 
 

One fuck offering to beat up another fuck doesn’t really diminish the amount of fuckhood one fuck possesses.

How about this? The fuck who manages to kill both himself and his fuck opponent wins for least terrible!

 
 

OK, I just actually watched the video. There aren’t even enough compressions to judge that there’s no ventilation going on. On top of that, the poor kid’s probably on an O2 sat monitor – with that going, you know exactly how badly he needs air at that moment. And behind the big guy doing the compressions might be someone holding squeezing a bag to pump air in.

As for the force of the compressions – don’t let Michael Brown give you CPR. He’ll just break your sternum and a few ribs.

 
 

Lesley’s right.

Put another way, if one fuck beats the fuck out of another fuck, possibly getting fucked up in the process, where you STARTED with two fucks, you ended up with a beaten-to-fuck fuck and a fucked up fuck.

Net improvement…

mikey

 
 

Last summer, I was eating out at a cheap Atlanta steakhouse with my wife when a Creed song popped up on their mix. This place is well-known for attracting a hip-ish, gay clientele, so I’m guessing the song was used for the sake of irony.

Before this, the last time I heard a Creed song was on the shower radio in August 2002. I’m pretty certain of this, as I used it as a half-assed conversation starter for a few years.

That’s a pretty good track record of Creed avoidance, I figure.

 
 

If Scott Stapp is one up from Fred Durst, then who the hell is one up from Scott Stapp?

 
 

OT, but sometimes I feel that there might be a chance for at least some neocons to realize that an Obama presidency would at the very least help right some of the horrific mistakes done by the Bush administration. You know, like torture….

And then I come to read comments like the one below:

If I were President Bush, I would empty out the Guantanamo prison NOW and parachute the former prisoners from a C-130 into various friendly-to-terrorist countries such as Pakistan.

Then I would apologize later, from Dallas, for forgetting to provide parachutes.

And that was supposedly from some ‘conservative Democrat’ who hates terrorists or something… I can’t be the only one disturbed by such a line, right?

 
 

Put another way, if one fuck beats the fuck out of another fuck, possibly getting fucked up in the process, where you STARTED with two fucks, you ended up with a beaten-to-fuck fuck and a fucked up fuck.

How much fuck could a rightwingfuck fuck if a rightwingfuck could fuck fuck?

Sound familiar?

 
 

If Scott Stapp is one up from Fred Durst, then who the hell is one up from Scott Stapp?

Good Christ we’re on a slippery slope here. I think the only solution is to fire rockets at all Fred Durst and Scott Stapp-related targets. It’s unfortunate that they use human shields.

 
Leon Trotsky, Exile-in-Mexico
 

I’m trying to remember that blonde guitarist guy who was basically just Scott Stapp with blonde hair and a right-wing blogger goatee.

I think that guy was one step up from Scott Stapp, if only because I can’t remember that douchebag’s name or band, which I can only wish were true of Stapp or Durst.

 
 

Public plea to the Righteous Bubba Front for the Liberation of Suck.

Please re-think this path of acts of terror against the Creed/Bizket Axis of Evil.

The world certainly understands your need to strike back at the outrageous, inhuman acts of reprehensible tone-based attacks, but at this point we must ask you for additional restraint and negotiations in good faith, if only on “Easy Listening” and “Classic Rock” Satellite Radio.

As the rest of the world, comprised of the music listening public, we find ourselves in abject daily terror of the consequences of your actions. We cannot imagine the horror to be visited upon us if not only Creed, but Limp Bizket unleash the full fury of their discordant awfulness.

The world trembles, awaiting your decision…

mikey

 
Leon Trotsky, Exile-in-Mexico
 

Chad Kroeger!

That’s the fuck I was thinking of.

Man, that guy sucked.

 
 

Rickey Henderson. On this issue there is but one side and one side alone.

 
 

I would also caution that Redman and Method Man both appeared on LB tracks. I would really hate to see Red and Meth get caught in the cross-fire

 
 

Yep, another one of those “ha ha, we found one case where it’s fake! THEREFORE EVERYTHING EVER HAS BEEN A TERRIBLE LIE TO DECEIVE US!”

Ah, yes, I remember well when some Reuters photographer was accused of darkening the smoke in a picture of a burning building in Lebanon, that meant that you could not trust anything Reuters published, therefore there was no credible proof of dead civilians in Lebanon, therefore there were no dead civilians in Lebanon. Seriously. Someone tried to argue that to me.

 
 

Ah yes, Slightly-More-Smoke-Gate

 
 

I think the only solution is to fire rockets at all Fred Durst and Scott Stapp-related targets.

I remember a time when I was indifferent to Fred Durst. Then he went on TV after 9/11 and butchered Pink Floyd’s “Wish You Were Here” with that asshat from the Goo Goo Dolls. I have hated that fucking douchebag Fred Durst ever since. If Fred Durst was on fire, that would be the only time I wouldn’t piss on him. If I had one bullet in my gun and I was in the room with Fred Durst and Osama bin Ladin….okay, I’d still shoot bin Laden, but I’d club Durst to death with the butt of the gun afterwards. And I’d laugh while doing it.

 
 

Chad Kroeger!

The blonde dude from the Alltel cell phone ads?

 
 

Rhoades has it – the asshat from the Goo Goo Dolls is one up from Scott Stapp.

 
 

Public plea to the Righteous Bubba Front for the Liberation of Suck.

Please re-think this path of acts of terror against the Creed/Bizket Axis of Evil.

Had the people of Suckistan not elevated Scott Stapp and Fred Durst to prominence when more acceptable options were available the Snobraelis would not have been forced into this position.

I advise citizens of Suckistan to consider their stances on Stapp and Durst and for an indeterminate amount of time avoid drinking establishments, retail outlets, concert venues, radio stations and brothels.

 
 

Oh, come on. Fred Durst is eleventy seven times preferable to Scott Stapp. He is at least funny, albeit unintentionally so. Nothing about Stapp is funny. Well, if you don’t count his ex hitting him in the head with her cell phone. That was funny. (Not to condone domestic violence disclaimer.)

Besides, the great wheels of Karma will eventually bring a harmonic convergence where Durst and Stapp will find themselves in the same bar with my old buddy from Stone Sour & Slipknot, Jim, who will take Stapp’s head in one ginormous hand and Durst’s in the other and bring the two empty noggins together briskly. Jim’s a fairly nice guy but if he’s had a few and in a bad mood it could happen.

(I have to admit that Durst’s insult of Slipknot’s fans was fairly on the money, though.Fred is just bright enough to come up with insults irritating enough to get him slapped around)

I can’t hate Chad Kroeger. He’s teh hawtness. He’s the kind of guy you’d spend a night with and then give him the wrong phone number in the morning. (Did I say that out loud?*) Besides, he’s a stoner Canadian. How can you hate him? Eh?

*I’ve been drinking cherry wine. Forget I said any of this. School was cancelled – first day of the semester – and the weather’s depressing so I decided to get inebriated. It will happen again.

 
 

Rob Thomas.

No question.

Okay, maybe only a half step.

 
 

I suggest we immediately send MIchael Brown to deal with the impending disaster in Suckistan. He can determine the quality of the CPR delivered to the Creed fans, oversee the bloated body of Limp Bizkit floating in the street, and judge some horses or something.

 
 

Yay, Candy!

Thanks!

(Blinks confusedly)

 
 

I guess I shouldn’t be ashamed to say that I’m not familiar with any of the sucky rockers, with the exception of Suck Stapp. I lead a sheltered and tasteful life.

 
 

Where does one procure cherry wine?

 
 

Candy: That would be this Jim, no?

 
 

Nothing about Stapp is funny. Well, if you don’t count his ex hitting him in the head with her cell phone. That was funny. (Not to condone domestic violence disclaimer.)

I got an inappropriate chuckle out of “Paul Anka struck in head by a piece of ice, wife arrested.”

 
Doctor Missus Marita
 

OT, but are there any Boston Sadlys who have the day free on Wednesday and want to do an incredibly nice thing?

Yeah, I didn’t think so, but I thought I’d ask.

One of these days I’ll post a comment that isn’t asking people to do something, I swear.

 
 

Bill Clinton set both the example and the gold standard for Democratic capitulation in which settling for something less extreme than pure neoconservatism is considered a shining triumph of bipartisanship.

We’re seeing the same thing now with Obama and these Willie Wetlegs in Congress. And to deny that is make ourselves as willfully blind as Bush’s supporters have been these past 8 years.

 
 

Where does one procure cherry wine?

Weirdly, it’s shown up in the supermarket I frequent. I loved cherry wne as a teenager in the 70s, especially the stuff my great uncle used to make at home. This is pretty good stuff, and brings back pleasant memories of hot summer nights. The label on this bottle is Tabor, but there was actually another brand of cherry wine, and blackberry, as well. If I wasn’t so broke I’d have picked up all three.

I lead a sheltered and tasteful life.

I sure didn’t.

 
 

Candy: That would be this Jim, no?

yep

 
 

Hey, where does that cobag from Hoobastank who looks kind of like Jeremy Piven without the charm fit in? Because I think I hate his sub-Vedder yowls slightly more than Face-Mullet Kroeger’s, but slightly less than Scott 666 Stapp’s.

Scott Stapp more or less made me retroactively hate Pearl Jam back when I enjoyed grunge. I hate that asshole.

 
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
 

Hey, where does that cobag from Hoobastank who looks kind of like Jeremy Piven without the charm fit in? Because I think I hate his sub-Vedder yowls slightly more than Face-Mullet Kroeger’s, but slightly less than Scott 666 Stapp’s.

I feel grateful that I have no idea what any of this means.

John Philip Sousa FTW

 
 

Once when I was working on a big project for Sony Eddie and Stone were NICE TO ME.

Therefore they can do no wrong, ever, in the whole universe, no backsies…

mikey

 
 

I got an inappropriate chuckle out of “Paul Anka struck in head by a piece of ice, wife arrested.”

That is amusing.

 
 

On the other hand, once when I was Backstage at a Bush Concert in SF, Johnny Rzeznik (alleged “asshat from the goo goo dolls”) was REALLY nice to me. He was with his wife (I think, girlfriend maybe) and kept introducing me to all the panting females who won passes from radio stations. I sat on the edge of the stage while they played. I drank a LOT of their beer.

The music may well be marginal, but I had BIG fun so I give ’em a pass, too…

mikey

 
 

I never got to know PJ, mikey, but some of my friends in Seattle knew them well, and I’ve heard they were nice guys. Well, this was pre-PJ in the Mother Love Bone/Green River days and Eddie wasn’t on the scene yet, but Stony and Jeff et al were supposed to be nice. McCready was a little young still for that scene, I think. I know he had a band called Shadow and worked at a burger place. I wish I’d been around then. I’ve heard so many Alice in Chains stories I felt like I was there. Things were less funny with them later on, sadly.

I love Eddie Vedder with all my heart. His accoustic stuff from Into the Wild is in heavy rotation chez Candy.

 
 

Of course there’s two sides. Creed: sucks or blows? See?

As for the force of the compressions – don’t let Michael Brown give you CPR. He’ll just break your sternum and a few ribs.

Michael Brown:doctor::Joe the Plumber:reporter

 
 

Hey BTW, h/t to mikey for turning me on to Garbage, who make good noises in my headphones.

 
 

“asshat from the goo goo dolls”

There was a time long ago when the Goo Goo Dolls were a serviceable replacement for The Replacements. Seriously.

If not for Hoobastank – who I had to look up – I would never have seen this achingly sincere video. I will be saddened when this young man is distributed across a wide area.

 
 

I will be saddened when this young man is distributed across a wide area.

Now officially stolen adopted as mikey’s prayer for those who trespass against us…

mikey

 
 

Well, this was pre-PJ in the Mother Love Bone/Green River days and Eddie wasn’t on the scene yet, but Stony and Jeff et al were supposed to be nice.

Coming at it from the other side Mark Arm and Steve Turner were always nice enough: Green River split over Ament and Gossard wanting to be a major-label band. Mudhoney were always better than Pearl Ham. Mother Love Bone stunk live in a “who are these assholes?” kinda way.

 
 

I still listen to MLB every now and then. I love Bone China and Stargazer particularly. Too bad about Andy.

I prefer PJ to Mudhoney, although I like Mudhoney. Less my type of sound, I guess. Thing that kills me is how “grunge” (which is a joke in Seattle, no one in Seattle ever thought of themselves as grunge) got lumped into this category. None of the bands that actually made up that genre were all that similar. Soundgarden, PJ, Alice, Screaming Trees – all quite different. Not that there wasn’t a lot of cross-pollination of course. But it was the imitators who all sounded the same.

Mark Lanegan is the best thing to come from Seattle. (Or, technically Eburg if you want to be a stickler.) Lanegan is probably the best lyricist ever. I listen to Lanegan more than any other single artist, from the ST SST days to his stuff with Isobel Campbell.

 
 

OT: Thank jeebus it wasn’t two dudes who got married at Taco Bell. That would be ridiculous.

 
 

Thing that kills me is how “grunge” (which is a joke in Seattle, no one in Seattle ever thought of themselves as grunge) got lumped into this category.

There’s something to be said for “grunge” being anything Jack Endino recorded: a lot of the stuff had the same dynamic range, murk, fuzzier-than-a-Gibson-and-a-Marshall distortion, and a lack of treble. Whatever the band was playing Endino gave it the grunge quality.

I remember being excited – excited I tells ya – when I heard a record by The Fluid that was recorded by Butch Vig instead of Jack Endino because treble existed. (Such is the proof that I am a white guy. My friends and I would talk only half-seriously about cruising up and down the street with the music blasting out of the car and the bass turned all the way down.)

 
 

Yeah, well, Grunge was a label, worthwhile in the way labels can be, but ultimately useless for actually describing anything.

Unless you think “Pretty Noose”, “Dissident” and “Polly” all are in the same category.

mikey

 
 

Unless you think “Pretty Noose”, “Dissident” and “Polly” all are in the same category.

All are in the category of “not recorded by Jack Endino” so I’m fine with none of it being grunge.

Candy is correct though that grunge was generally a big joke. Lotta strong singers though who actually had help from vocal coaches because they were cheaters and stuff.

 
 

Such is the proof that I am a white guy.

If I could find the album recording of “Aqua Boogie” on YouTube, I’d link it. But, actually, most Parliament stuff doesn’t skimp on the treble. I’d even argue that contrast between treble and bass is part of the crucial difference between P-Funk and a lot of its imitators. So you may be reassured that this in itself is not proof of honkitude.

The late ’80s/early ’90s fashion for bassy, murky, fuzzy recording makes a lot of that period’s rock music unlistenable to me.

 
 

Hey BTW, h/t to mikey for turning me on to Garbage, who make good noises in my headphones.

There’s a bootleg recording of Garbage’s first (?) concert that’s well worth a download if you ever see it floating around. 1995-11-05 in Minneapolis, pretty good audience recording. If you’re into that sort of thing.

It’s actually how I started liking them a few years ago. I remembered them from the 90s, but never heard a full album. The live show outshines the album, IMO.

 
 

If I could find the album recording of “Aqua Boogie” on YouTube, I’d link it. But, actually, most Parliament stuff doesn’t skimp on the treble. I’d even argue that contrast between treble and bass is part of the crucial difference between P-Funk and a lot of its imitators.

Not to mention Jimmy Nolen’s guitar playing for JB.

 
 

Sorry about the OT, but Karl Rove will be on the next NRO Cruise.

I’m imagining him at the buffet…

 
 

Of course there’s two sides. Creed: sucks or blows? and swallows. See?

FYT

 
 

Karl Rove will be on the next NRO Cruise.

Hmmm. It may not be wise for him to leave US territory.

 
 

Where’s the photo of the New Wingnut Of The Week,™ Humanitarian Edition?

Here’s an appropriate hat. Seriously, you’ll want to keep this one in your hat database.

 
 

A few choice caps for Joe the Reporter.

 
 

I’d even argue that contrast between treble and bass is part of the crucial difference between P-Funk and a lot of its imitators. So you may be reassured that this in itself is not proof of honkitude.

Well, what I was talking about was absence of bass, which is not really what P-Funk was about. I’ve had Eddie Hazel ruin my hearing for an evening with some retarded BC Rich 10-string machine.

But anyway, for another take on the white guy vs. bass I seem to recall in the justly embarrassing “Some Kind of Monster” that one of the dopes in Metallica is talking about a producer (Bob Rock) who “actually likes bass” as if that is a rare and exotic beast in the land of recording. Similar joke on Metalocalypse at some point.

 
 

I’m imagining him at the buffet…

With an apple in his mouth?

 
 

Karl Rove would make a good white chocolate fountain: bland, drippy.

 
 

Yeah, but if you get stoned and listen to the drum line in the Chorus of “Fuel”, you will give Metallica a “Get out of Suckage Free” card for all time.

It will make you twitch, jump up, rip off your trousers and run outside.

And you really can’t ask it to do anything more than that…

mikey

Oh. Here’s a tip. You have to turn it WAY up

 
 

I AM TOO NOT A FAG!

somebody needs to offer cupboarded republicans a course in how not reveal they are gay.

Who describes their urges as “heterosexual”? Anybody?

Honey, I’ve got a heterosexual urge.. wtf?

 
 

e.g. Bush offering to smoke bin Ladin out of his hole.

Bush’s hole or Bin Laden’s? In either case, it’s something I’d like to watch though I have no idea how that works.

Also,

Sorry about the OT, but Karl Rove will be on the next NRO Cruise.

I’m imagining him at the buffet…

It’s been some while (at least for me) since S,N! has polished its Food and Wine Blog cred. But I can’t imagine Rove would cook up very tender.

 
 

With regard to Scott Stapp, Fred Durst, Chad Kroeger, Johnny Rzyzewskinik, Rob Thomas, et al., I take some comfort in knowing that infinity minus one (or two, or eleventy billion) is still infinity.

IOW, there’s plenty of suck to go around.

 
 

All of those corpses are just faking being dead. As Dr. Gilbert can tell you, they’re actually just pining for the fjords fnords.

fxt

the mgt

 
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
 

Also OT – I read that Bush gave his last press conference today, and it was even worse than most of the others.

Which surprised me – I hadn’t realized he’d ever had a press conference.

 
 

I, myself, have occasionally struggled with heterosexual “urges” almost all of which I have successfully suppressed.

 
 

the mgt

Hey, I need something to keep this hog offal in.

How handy! A coffee urn someone just happened to leave sitting here!

 
 

Yeah, but if you get stoned and listen to the drum line in the Chorus of “Fuel”, you will give Metallica a “Get out of Suckage Free” card for all time.

I believe the insider gossip has it that the card belongs to Bob Rock and ProTools.

 
 

Gary the Troll: Brown accomplished peace in New Orleans, …

Tacitus (the Roman historian, not the Rethug blogger): They make a desolation and call it peace.

 
 

Hey, I need something to keep this hog offal in.

I thought we were done with the Karl Rove subthread.

 
 

It’s been some while (at least for me) since S,N! has polished its Food and Wine Blog cred. But I can’t imagine Rove would cook up very tender.

Oh please, little strips of him could be used as lardoons in other, leaner wingnuts and he’d still have enough left to be self-basting.

 
 

I thought we were done with the Karl Rove subthread.

Keeps returning on us.

 
 

Sorry about the OT, but Karl Rove will be on the next NRO Cruise.

where is Boba Fett when you need him?

 
 

Sorry about the OT

Why? Has anything in this thread past the first two dozen comments been on “topic”?

Oh, and just to keep it “OT”, to all of you folks rambling on about Pearl Jam, Nirvana’s “Nevermind” runs up the score on anything else ever to come out of Seattle, ever.

 
 

Sorry, “Me”, if that’s your real name.

Down on the upside is WAY more listenable than anything Kurt and the boys ever did.

Now, hey, I like Nirvana, and I understand the whole “voice of a generation” thing (we had janis), but c’mon, y’gotta recognize magic when it happens…

mikey

 
 

I’ve had Eddie Hazel ruin my hearing for an evening with some retarded BC Rich 10-string machine.

Not Michael Hampton by chance?

 
 

Down on the upside is WAY more listenable than anything Kurt and the boys ever did.

Never listened to that record, but I was a fan early. Kim Thayil is a swell gentleman.

 
 

Not Michael Hampton by chance?

It’s always possible in a given situation that my brain has embellished, but it looked like Eddie Hazel and not Michael Hampton, and I remember that guitar because bending the two strings at once made me dizzy. Can’t remember how long after that Hazel died.

 
 

Just for old time’s sake, a throwback to when this whole internet commenting community thing had vast, unlimited promise, lemme tell you guys what I’m making for dinner.

Marinated, breaded pounded veal, a riff on the whole wiener schnitzel thing, pounded, marinated in mustard and herbs, dipped in egg and breaded. Sauteed in a LOT of butter.

Served with potato gnocchi, boiled gently then sauteed in garlic sage butter.

What? No veg, no salad?

Nope.

Bite me, doc…

mikey

 
 

The Goo Goo Dolls toured with the Replacements. At their final show together, Paul and Tommy took a large number of stickers from the tour merchandise, removed the backing and placed the stickers adhesive side up on the stage. the goo Goo Dolls liked to run around the stage barefoot. They ended up with a couple of inches of stickers stuck to the bottom of their feet. That was the nice Mats

 
 

Now, hey, I like Nirvana, and I understand the whole “voice of a generation” thing (we had janis), but c’mon, y’gotta recognize magic when it happens…

Nirvana wasn’t strictly speaking from my generation. I was 26 at the time Nevermind came out, and I was already pretty much past caring about contemporary music. It’s not that anything about it particularly speaks to me personally in a “generational” way, it’s that it rocks my fucking face off.

 
 

Bubba, do yourself a favor, and play that one. Loud.

It will make you want to ACT. Somehow, it just creates a fire. You’ll want to jam, or paint, or blow up a bus stop. Something.

Then, just for grins, go get the new Gaslight Anthem CD, “The ’59 Sound” and play that. Wow.

It all just keeps getting better..

mikey

 
 

Legalize said,

January 13, 2009 at 0:00

I hate to expose myself to such filth, but Dan Riehl’s brood are openly calling for concentration camps.

Couldn’t resist letting him know whose bread they’re buttering up:
(left on riehlworldview,com)

You’re right – Israel is absolutely justified in its response to Palestinian attacks. Any sensible person knows that the only rational response to terrorism, no matter how minor, is massive & swift retaliation – to let one’s inferiors know who is the master. In our country, we used this approach with great success, & almost succeeded in driving the scourge from our sacred homeland permanently … if Israel perserveres, surely it too will prevail.

Special camps to inter these vermin is a magnificant idea! I found it most efficacious in limiting the ability of the threat to pollute the body politic with their radical ideology & moral degeneracy, although some effeminate liberal-types at the time were upset by some of my more enthusiastic colleagues’ methods. A pity they can’t get the Palestinians to wear special badges on their clothes, too – to prevent them from hiding in the midst of their betters … & perhaps laws forbidding them from bringing civil suits or owning real-estate would be a step in the right direction as well.

Your perspective is a refreshing change from the pro-terrorist media’s one-sided slandering of Israel. Keep up the good work!

Sincerely,
Heinrich Himmler

Posted by: jim | Monday, January 12, 2009 at 10:08 PM

A little Godwinning goes a long way.

 
 

Well, as a friend of mine is fond of saying, Nirvana is not not NOT a Seattle band. They were an Olympia band.

I don’t quibble this quibble, myself, because to me, the band that most invokes Seattle is the Sreaming Trees, and they were an Ellensburg band.

 
 

Bravo, Jim. Hope a few of Riehl’s asshole readers read the whole thing before you were banned for life.

 
 

Nirvana is not not NOT a Seattle band

If you wanna get real pedantic, they were an Aberdeen band, since that’s where Cobain was from. If you want to try and understand Cobain’s depression and self-loathing, a trip to Aberdeen is probably in order.

 
 

Yeah, Me, you’re right about that. Gray’s Harbor gets I forget how many umpteen more inches of rain per year than Seattle.

 
 

Enjoying this, Candy.

 
 

My favourite drag-racing song for mikey.

You gotta love the Danelectro.

 
 

Ah, Lesley, how I love that song.

Try this one

 
 

please mikey please – that is a buerre noisette with the sage, yes?

In the PeeJ/Tink9+ household this evening, we’re doing a riff on St. Julia’s rather bizarre “Chinese Manicotti”, an outrageously satisfying and also spectacular dish.

 
 

Mark Lanegan is the best thing to come from Seattle.

Post-Jimi Hendrix, you mean?

 
 

PS – I aint nebber heerd of the pipples y’all be tawkin bout. Most of ’em, nohow. Now get offa my lawn!

PPS – My dear Ho some years ago actually bought a Creed disc. I’m ashamed to know it’s in our house. I don’t let him play it. Tonight, while he’s asleep….

PPPs – FYWP with a permanganate filled pastry bag

 
 

that is a buerre noisette with the sage, yes?

Not sure, Peej. I killed something small and funky sniffin around the back door. You think that coulda been it?

Cause dood, it’s not like I went out there and put the little corpse in the trash.

Hell, babe, that’s what raccoons are for.

Y’know?

mikey

 
 

Much appreciated, Candy. I hadn’t heard Screaming Trees or Mark Lanegan before today.

 
 

Candy, have you heard Mark Lanegan & Isobel Campbell

 
 

could be, mikey. Point is, you brown the butter (medium high but not too high heat to burn it) so it picks up a nutty flavor. Try, you’ll like it!*

Or use ghee which has been through a similar process.

* you kids won’t understand – but hey! mikey likes it!

 
 

You’ve made me a happy woman, Lesley. I’m always delighted to turn someone on to Mr. Lanegan.

With the late Layne Staley of Alice in Chains, Mike McCready of Pearl Jam, the late Baker Saunders, and Barrett Martin of the Screaming Trees, here’s Mark with Mad Season: Long Gone Day

 
 

Lesley, Mark and Isobel together are the only things I don’t have in my library. I will remedy that when I get the chance.

 
 

Also, in the music motif, I didn’t know Chris Smither was still alive much less writing and performing great songs.

 
 

Point is, you brown the butter (medium high but not too high heat to burn it) so it picks up a nutty flavor. Try, you’ll like it!*

Oh, cool. That’s what I did. Just seemed to make sense. I let the butter bubble ’til it went really light brown, then I dropped the heat a little and threw in a few cloves of diced garlic. BANG! What a perfect aroma. As the bubbles calmed, I kicked up the heat again a little and threw in the chopped Sage. As it got active, I drained the Gnocchi and dumped it in. A couple minutes and it was a freakin win, y’know?

mikey

 
 

She’s Not For You is a keeper, though the recording’s a little rough.

 
 

Down on the upside is WAY more listenable than anything Kurt and the boys ever did.

Soundgarden is just too much straightforward arena rock for me. Some great riffs, but listing to it for any extended period gives me the same boredom headache Metallica does. It might also possibly just be Chris Cornell’s voice, because I have the same exact reaction to Audioslave, but not to Alice in Chains.

Most of those bands are just way too dour for my taste — too aggressively sad while too gently angry, if you get my drift. Angsty. If I’m looking for cynicism and angst, I’m going to go tap the Chicago/MN/Midwest well for a dose of Big Black, Scratch Acid, Butthole Surfers, Killdozer, Hüsker Dü…

And as far as the big Washington icons go, I still think Nirvana did a better job than most at preserving punk’s most important legacy — the ability to write songs about atrocity, tragedy, and desolation with a nervous energy and vitality instead of resignation.

 
Stephen Deadlyass
 

IIRC, a number of people in the medical community say that using chest compressions only is just as effective as compressions with ventilation.

 
 

PeeJ, Smither’s playing made me think of Deep River Blues the way Doc Watson played it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYKzXUwmm3I

 
 

That was one of my favourite childhood songs.

 
 

My favorite song of the moment: Big Hard Sun

Must fall on my face now. Ha! Feels like being back in Seattle except I’m not half-expecting to die in my sleep. Good times!

 
 

I like the original version with Joni Mitchell on back up.

 
 

Candy, you might like Lynn Miles

Sample on Youtube

Lynn hails from Ottawa. Her albums aren’t easy to get, but I recommend Night in a Strange Town. Can’t think of a single track that isn’t sublime on that album.

 
 

I’m not the only one who saw ‘Dr. Mads’ and immediately thought of MST3k.

Right?

Guys?

 
 

What a pretty voice. I do like that. I like a nice song like that to follow me down into sleep.

Used to always make Little Wing, either Hendrix’s or Stevie Ray’s cover, my last song of the night. Or something by Sarah McLachlen. Something pretty and haunting.

I’m gonna have a headache in the morning. ‘night.

 
 

Night girl. Guzzle water and vit. B before you hit the sack.

Big protein breakfast tomorrow. 🙂

 
 

mikey: you got it!

Candy: I ‘speck Smither was deeply influenced by Doc Watson et. el. Great stuff, thanks.

Also, WordPress is the Creed of blogware.

 
 

Candy Candy Candy: “I can’t hate Chad Kroeger. He’s teh hawtness.”

Oh dear. ?? He looks like a not very bright [young] Nick Cage. He appears to be an amiable sort though.

Ah, the vagaries of taste. And cherry wine too.

For me: More vodka! and another episode of Sharpe’s Rifles starring Sean Bean circa 1995… which means another dose of “Over the Hills & Far Away”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLd5fNO8waI

Note that there are an astonishing number of youtube videos with carefully culled still photos of Sean Bean set to this song. I had no idea.

 
 

If it weren’t for these doctors faking videos, there’d be no dead children in Gaza.

And those not-dead children are terrorists anyway.

So they deserve their not-deaths.

 
 

He is ‘fisking’ a medical relief worker in Gaza.

I thought ‘making stupid comments on a medical condition you know bupkes about, based on a video’, was called Fristing?

 
Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist
 

I’m not the only one who saw ‘Dr. Mads’ and immediately thought of MST3k.

Nope. I flashed right back to Deep 13.

 
 

TBogg has more Joe the Plumber footage, worst than yesterday’s.

Joe is furious – and taking it very personally – that rockets are interrupting his day.

 
 

“The issue is with the hideous disproportionality and unnecessary brutality with which the Israeli government has chosen to act upon THEIR grievances.

Do you think, if you REALLY put your mind to it, you could come up with a better response to mostly harmless amateur rocket fire than murdering hundreds of women and children inside a giant concentration camp OF YOUR MAKING?? You think you could?

Do you suppose that there might actually be a MORE PRODUCTIVE solution than bombing apartments and schools and hospitals? Than driving tanks through neighborhoods of people already predisposed by your criminal actions to hate you? Do you really think this is nothing but “self defense”, not politics or even a desire to maintain a permanent state of war?”

Oh please. Stop your condescending holier-than thou BS. If you couldn’t go to school/university/outside your house for months on end because someone was dropping bombs on your hometown you would be pretty damn scared. That “amateur rocket fire” isn’t designed to cause mass casualties (although I’m sure Hamas would feel it furthered its aims if it did) it is designed to keep a population in a state of constant fear.

Israel is reacting in the same way we would react (in fact they probably have MORE restraint than we would).

The problem, as I have said before is that both of these sides are locked into a prisoners dilemna death spiral and they need some form of outside intervention (in the form of peace-keeping troops etc…) or else this cycle is going to continue.

But please conintue on your vilification of Israel, that has been shown to be incredibly productive. Or do you buy into the typical “the Jews control the media” claptrap? Yeah that “the media is biased” stance is sooo effective. Worked great for McCain/Palin.

 
 

“We are trying to kill you for liberty! Why can’t you see that dammit!”

 
 

“The problem, as I have said before is that both of these sides are locked into a prisoners dilemna death spiral and they need some form of outside intervention (in the form of peace-keeping troops etc…) or else this cycle is going to continue.”

I would agree, but the lockstep “any understanding of the other side is vilification of Israel” gets in the way of actually doing anything, because the answer is always presented as *doing something about Hamas* or whatever.

And anyway, the guy with the power is the guy that needs to use restraint, obviously, because he’s the guy that CAN, eh?

 
 

“I would agree, but the lockstep “any understanding of the other side is vilification of Israel” gets in the way of actually doing anything, because the answer is always presented as *doing something about Hamas* or whatever.

And anyway, the guy with the power is the guy that needs to use restraint, obviously, because he’s the guy that CAN, eh?”

I don’t think folks are suggesting (at least rational non-wingnut folks) that “trying to understand the other side is vilification of Israel.” The problem is the folks who are suggesting that the Israeli government/populace is deriving some sort of pleasure or satisfaction from civilian deaths or that they are perpetrating a “genocide.” If they wanted to commit genocide they could easily level the entire Gaza strip using solely air power and not put any of their troops at risk (see Darfur for modern genocide example).

This is more complicated than “Israel Bad Must Stop” or “Hamas Evil Must Kill” and I do not think it is fair to put the onus on either side. Israel is going to do what it thinks is appropriate to maintain its security and Hamas is going to do what it thinks it is appropriate to resist the occupation. The only way out of this is to either:

1. Involve outside parties in a constructive way or
2. Have it get so bad that one side views the other sides demands as acceptable.

Vilifying either side is counter-productive.

 
 

But fine, yes, I’m just mad because when I was growing up, there used to be a group in America called “the Jews,” who converted the lessons of political oppression into a moral imperative toward justice, a light of universalism unto the world.

Hey, we still got Jon Stewart. I think he cancels out Adam Sandler, right?

 
 

Israel is reacting in the same way we would react (in fact they probably have MORE restraint than we would).

Umm, and THIS is your argument in support of Israeli war crimes?

That it MUST be ok because we would commit war crimes too?

Umm, Ok, big fella. I’m just gonna back slowly out the door and everything’s gonna be fine…

mikey

 
 

“Umm, and THIS is your argument in support of Israeli war crimes?

That it MUST be ok because we would commit war crimes too?

Umm, Ok, big fella. I’m just gonna back slowly out the door and everything’s gonna be fine…”

Hey way to address the entire post big guy. I was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of calling Israel somehow exceptional in their behavior. Also I think you need to look up the defintion of war crimes and at least start applying it to both sides of this equation.

 
 

I was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of calling Israel somehow exceptional in their behavior.

They ARE exceptional and that’s why most of the world is taking exception.

 
 

“They ARE exceptional and that’s why most of the world is taking exception.”

How so? how are they any more exceptional than our war in Afgahnistan/Iraq?

 
 

or darfur for that matter?

 
Leon Trotsky, Exile-in-Mexico
 

Yeah, because when I think of things to measure the Israel/Palestine conflict, I know the first thing I want to bring to mind is FUCKING DARFUR.

I’m not sure if you’re a troll or just stupid.

 
 

Israel is reacting in the same way we would react (in fact they probably have MORE restraint than we would).

This is easily refuted.

 
 

There’s a bootleg recording of Garbage’s first (?) concert that’s well worth a download if you ever see it floating around. 1995-11-05 in Minneapolis, pretty good audience recording. If you’re into that sort of thing.

I saw them in Milwaukee a couple of days after that show. I had their first album, the Butch Vig local connection yanno, and I wanted to see how they translated the processor intensive sound to the stage.

Pretty well, actually. They had one loop glitch early on, but then came back to rock our faces off.

 
 

how are they any more exceptional than our war in Afgahnistan/Iraq? or darfur for that matter?

I really have no idea what you’re saying here and I’m hoping that the uncharitable interpretations I could make of it are not true.

 
 

“Yeah, because when I think of things to measure the Israel/Palestine conflict, I know the first thing I want to bring to mind is FUCKING DARFUR.

I’m not sure if you’re a troll or just stupid.”

OK seriously, every other response I see in this blog to Israel’s operation is that it is not proportional to the damage that Hamas has inflicted on the Israeli’s. Yet that same proportionality doesn’t apply to the outrage folks show in regards to other conflicts. If you are outraged that 800 civilians died in the Gaza strip you muct be completely fucking incensed that 200-600k that we know of have perished in Darfur.

Screaming “war crimes” and “genocide” must seem like a lot of fun, but they don’t:

A. Reflect the truth of the situation (Darfur is a fucking genocide, Israel is a tragedy but not a systematic and deliberate killing of a civilian population).

B. Don’t help the situation and are the reason why Israel is going full retard, because they really think the whole world could give a shit about their security.

I’m so sorry that on this one issue I’m not in total fucking lockstep with the commenters on the board. Please provide me with a list of approved opinions so I can bone up.

Lesley: I do not see how Israels desire to bomb Iran (which I agree is a terrible idea) has any relationship to how they are reacting to a neighboring state bombing them. I hate to use this analogy (because it is so cliche) but if elements of the Canadian govenrment were bombing Wisconsin and didn’t stop after many months, what do you think our reaction would be.

 
 

Yet that same proportionality doesn’t apply to the outrage folks show in regards to other conflicts.

Doesn’t it? “Look over there” is not an argument.

 
 

“Doesn’t it? “Look over there” is not an argument.”

It is when the crux of your argument is based on the “proportionality and number of casualities.”

 
 

It is when the crux of your argument is based on the “proportionality and number of casualities.”

But that’s YOUR argument. I am not comparing Israel to Iraq or Darfur or whatever. So yes, your argument fails.

 
 

But please conintue on your vilification of Israel, that has been shown to be incredibly productive. Or do you buy into the typical “the Jews control the media” claptrap? Yeah that “the media is biased” stance is sooo effective. Worked great for McCain/Palin.

And yet I’m sure over_educated here is the type who sneers at critics of Israel when they complain of being unjustly smeared as antisemites. This isn’t the first such conjecture from o_e, and DAS from earlier threads impressed me by sneaking an insinuation of antisemitism into literally every post.

I think good faith is a critical requirement in any political debate, and I don’t consider baseless and repeated insinuations of antisemitism to be any better than outright Godwinning. If you want to know why Israel is “singled out,” you might want to ask the US government, which has explicitly singled Israel out as a recipient of military aid and praise.

 
 

“But that’s YOUR argument. I am not comparing Israel to Iraq or Darfur or whatever. So yes, your argument fails.”

No, Bubba, it is YOUR argument. You have repeatedly compared Israeli casualties to Palestinian casualties, and have posited that Israel is at greater fault because they are causing more casualties. My point is if you are going to go down the road of who we should be more “outraged” by that their are a host of conflicts far worse than the Israeli-Palistinian conflict that should tkae priority, and that is why the Israeli’s feel they are being unfairly targetted.

I am drawing the analogy to say that casualty numbers are not necessarily the ONLY issue one must look at when you try to understand this conflict.

 
Leon Trotsky, Exile-in-Mexico
 

If you are outraged that 800 civilians died in the Gaza strip you muct be completely fucking incensed that 200-600k that we know of have perished in Darfur.

I fucking am. If someone came here defending Darfur as simply protecting themselves, I would be abso-fucking-lutly livid.

I’m fucking livid over the number of civilians being slaughtered in Iraq and Afghanistan by a military that’s supposedly there to represent my interests, but mostly seems to be there to oppress two countries’ worth of people on behalf of corporate and racist interests.

So, maybe you know, bringing the two up as “omigosh, nobody ever talks about these” is stupid and insane troll logic, as we *are* fucking incensed over those examples, dipshit.

 
 

“And yet I’m sure over_educated here is the type who sneers at critics of Israel when they complain of being unjustly smeared as antisemites. This isn’t the first such conjecture from o_e, and DAS from earlier threads impressed me by sneaking an insinuation of antisemitism into literally every post.”

Bullshit. Point me to a single post where I called or implied anyone was antisemetic.

 
 

You have repeatedly compared Israeli casualties to Palestinian casualties

That is because I am talking about that conflict.

My point is if you are going to go down the road of who we should be more “outraged” by

I didn’t go down that road, you did. Evidently you feel that in speaking about Israeli war crimes I have singled Israel out, to which I might say “No shit Sherlock.”

 
 

Also I think you need to look up the defintion of war crimes and at least start applying it to both sides of this equation.

Jeezus, these idiots just NEVER give up with this entirely false framing, no matter how many times anybody screams:

NOBODY says what Hamas is doing with their toy rockets is OK. Yes, using military weapons to target civilians is a war crime. Yes, collectively punishing a population for the actions of a fraction of that population is a war crime.

It is also well accepted that it is NOT OK to respond to war crimes with war crimes. They are ALWAYS war crimes. And you maybe need to read your Geneva. There are more ways to commit war crimes than just genocide. In fact, you can kill a SINGLE person and it can be a war crime – hence your point about the rocket fire.

The focus is on Israel instead of Palestine right now primarily due to their current 100:1 kill ratio. The starvation, the misery, the untreated wounded, the lack of power and medicine and food and water on one side of the line, and not so much on the other side of the line.

It truly saddens and sickens me when humans allow politics or even worse, theocracy, to erase their basic compassion…

mikey

 
 

My point is if you are going to go down the road of who we should be more “outraged” by that their are a host of conflicts far worse than the Israeli-Palistinian conflict that should tkae priority, and that is why the Israeli’s feel they are being unfairly targetted.

It is grossly unfair to target Bubba’s argument when there are a host of conflicts far worse.

 
 

“Evidently you feel that in speaking about Israeli war crimes I have singled Israel out, to which I might say “No shit Sherlock.””

Huh, imagine that, I feel that since you seem to regard Israeli actions as war crimes, yet do not have a similar response Hamas’s actions, I feel you may be a bit biased.

Thats the problem I have, bandying around words like “war crimes” and “genocide” shows a total lack of good faith. So why hsould I take you seriously?

 
 

Huh, imagine that, I feel that since you seem to regard Israeli actions as war crimes, yet do not have a similar response Hamas’s actions, I feel you may be a bit biased.

Attention Djur!

 
Leon Trotsky, Exile-in-Mexico
 

Why should we take you seriously?

 
 

“Why should we take you seriously?”

Well, I like to think I argue in good faith and I’m not trying to vilify either side. Look at my posts and take that as you will.

You may disagree with me, but I’m not trying to troll you (at least not intentionally). I just feel that trying to heap blame on one side of this conflict is counterproductive, and if you refuse to see why 91% of Israeli’s support this action (latest Haaretz poll) I don’t see how you can have a realistic discussion of solutions.

 
 

Thats the problem I have, bandying around words like “war crimes” and “genocide” shows a total lack of good faith.

I haven’t used “genocide” myself, but apparently speaking about war precludes opinions on war crimes. Go figure.

 
 

trying to heap blame on one side of this conflict is counterproductive

Counterproductive to what?

 
 

Thats the problem I have, bandying around words like “war crimes” and “genocide” shows a total lack of good faith. So why hsould I take you seriously?

Okay, in regard to equanimity, let’s try an experiment.

OMG, teh Muzlins are plottin to kill us all.

OMG, teh JOOZ are plottin to kill us all.

Given the material, which snarky headline is the least apropos?

 
 

“Counterproductive to what?”

I don’t know, having a discussion that is more than just hurling insults?

 
Leon Trotsky, Exile-in-Mexico
 

and if you refuse to see why 91% of Israeli’s support this action (latest Haaretz poll) I don’t see how you can have a realistic discussion of solutions.

They’re afraid of shit?

And therefore pissed themselves and decided to let the big strong military kick six to seven shades of shit out of the people they’re afraid of, creating more resentment and hatred in both sides, and thus solving exactly nothing in terms of solutions, only perpetuating events for another year?

Yeah, I don’t know where I would’ve gotten that far-fetched unrealistic idea of events. Best to just let Israel continue to kick the shit out of the Palestinians. This time, it’ll solve everything, that’s realistic.

 
Leon Trotsky, Exile-in-Mexico
 

To sum up, 91% support of something doesn’t make it fucking *right*.

 
 

Gavin:

You are abolutely correct. Calls to “wipe out” the Gazans are fucking horrible and those folks should at the very least be very ashamed and drink a big glass of STFU. I’m not trying to say that there aren’t crazy Jew’s out there who want to wipe the Palestinians off the map. There are. That is NOT however, the opion of the vast majority of Israeli’s or even the vast majoirty of the Israeli government.

As much as it makes you spit bile to be accused of being an “anti-semite” for disagreeing with Israeli foreign policy it makes me spit bile to think I am being lumped in with the tardos at Powerline, but I think the thing that seperates us from the wingnuts is we do not try to dehumanize the opposition. Whatever is said and done, it is demonstrably false to say that the current gaza action is “genocide” and it is arguable whether either side is “committing war crimes” or whether civilian casualties are incidental to the war (and I know that sounds fucking horrible but that is how the Geneva convention looks at civilian casualties, there is a big difference between targetting civilians and targetting attackers and having civilians being killed in the process).

 
 

I don’t know, having a discussion that is more than just hurling insults?

Did I insult you in this thread, my delicate flower? Or did you insult me? All of these bad feelings have prevented me from properly considering your argument, haven’t they?

 
 

“Did I insult you in this thread, my delicate flower? Or did you insult me? All of these bad feelings have prevented me from properly considering your argument, haven’t they?”

Hey, I’m sorry Bubba I’m fielding comments from all sides, but I have been called quite a few nasty things in this thread, maybe not from you. I shouldn’t lump you in with other folks innapropriate responses, and if I did, mea culpa.

 
 

Look, maybe we can break this disagreement down to the essentials.

As I see it, the root of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that Israel wants the Palestinians to go away and leave their land to Jewish settlers, while the Palestinians don’t want to go away and have nowhere to go even if they did. Right and wrong aside, this is the conflict at essence.

Every so often, a ‘peace agreement’ is signed that leaves the Palestinians just as screwed as ever, in some position of unbelievable squalor and desperation that’s guaranteed to lead to renewed violence. When some kind of violence breaks out again, Israel is all like, “See? Look what they keep making us do!” and pounds the shit out of the Palestinians again, taking no responsibility for anything that they have ever done, or that has ever happened to them.

After awhile, it doesn’t matter who most recently did what to whom. The pattern of repeated actions has taken on a life of its own, and the responsibility lies with the party that has the power to change it.

 
 

mea culpa.

Accepted with good cheer.

 
 

Or, one could argue that Israel’s response is entirely rational based on past experience (paraphrased from a post at BJ):

How are things in the north of Israel? Has Hezbollah caused any problems lately? From what I’ve seen and read, nothing is going on.

Look at the parallels: an over-the-top Israeli reaction against Hezbollah actions (rockets and kidnapping soldiers). The whole world condemns Israel. The Brutal war ends up as a victory for Hezbollah. Lebanon is shattered still rebuilding, thousands of dead civilians. Followed by a truce that seems to be holding.

Did Israel drive the price of “victory” for Hezbollah to an astronomically high price they aren’t willing to pay. Could Israel have beaten the fight out of Hezbollah?

And if Hezbollah doesn’t want to fight Israel anymore, doesn’t it make sense for Israel to try the exact same thing against Hamas?

As for the “Israel wants the Palestinians to go away an leave theri land to Jewish Settlers” I think there is some truth to that, but then how would you explain that Israel did dismantle their Gaza settlments under protest of many of their own citizens?

 
 

Oh. Yeah, I see.

Mass slaughter was effective in cowing the opposition.

So let’s utilize mass slaughter as our primary foreign policy tool.

You oughta have to spend at least a day SMELLING mass slaugher…

mikey

 
 

Did Israel drive the price of “victory” for Hezbollah to an astronomically high price they aren’t willing to pay. Could Israel have beaten the fight out of Hezbollah?

And if Hezbollah doesn’t want to fight Israel anymore, doesn’t it make sense for Israel to try the exact same thing against Hamas?

As for the “Israel wants the Palestinians to go away an leave theri land to Jewish Settlers” I think there is some truth to that, but then how would you explain that Israel did dismantle their Gaza settlments under protest of many of their own citizens?

The last point first: What Israel did was to establish Gaza as a giant, blockaded ghetto with no access to vital resources. That situation was doomed to fail, intended to fail, seen over time as progressing on schedule toward failure, and has now ripened to the expected and hoped-for point that Israel can reoccupy Gaza saying, “We tried giving them their own state, and look what they made us do!”

I mean, for God’s sake here, imagine an “independent state” whose borders are carefully constructed to include no resources at all, while all roads in or out are blockaded by a foreign army. Let’s be reasonable for heaven’s sake.

Apropos Lebanon and all of that, imagine as a thought experiment that politically, Israel has features of a national-security state — that politically, it doesn’t want peace, but wants a controlled and controllable level of perpetual emergency. Imagine that many in Israel’s government and civic life depend for their livelihoods, and have for generations, on the perception that they are continually saving Israel from an ever-imminent destruction that is always just around the next corner (but which is somehow never realized).

It makes the Lebanon conflict really interesting, doesn’t it? How did that conflict start, specifically?

 
 

“Oh. Yeah, I see.

Mass slaughter was effective in cowing the opposition.

So let’s utilize mass slaughter as our primary foreign policy tool.

You oughta have to spend at least a day SMELLING mass slaugher…”

Your calm and rational responses are always appreciated.

This is not mass slaughter, this is what happens when you attack a force that has embedded military targets in a civilian population. I’m not saying it doesn’t suck, but if ultimately it protects your population and stops a broader or more protracted conflict that causes even more casualties on both side, perhaps it is worth it.

I know, I am an evil, horrible person for even suggesting it (and of course stupid and a doofus as well)..

 
 

I haven’t read all the comments, so perhaps someone has already suggested this, but it seems to me that Michael Brown would make a perfect head of a Palestinian relief organzation.

 
 

The pattern of repeated actions has taken on a life of its own, and the responsibility lies with the party that has the power to change it.

That’s it as I see it with the notable addition that the US pays out a ton in support of Israel and its circumstances.

Really if you put 3 billion into Gaza and infrastructure for a year or two instead of Israel you might have a nice little area: it’s on the sea and has beaches.

 
 

“The last point first: What Israel did was to establish Gaza as a giant, blockaded ghetto with no access to vital resources. That situation was doomed to fail, intended to fail, seen over time as progressing on schedule toward failure, and has now ripened to the expected and hoped-for point that Israel can reoccupy Gaza saying, “We tried giving them their own state, and look what they made us do!”

I mean, for God’s sake here, imagine an “independent state” whose borders are carefully constructed to include no resources at all, while all roads in or out are blockaded by a foreign army. Let’s be reasonable for heaven’s sake.

Apropos Lebanon and all of that, imagine as a thought experiment that politically, Israel has features of a national-security state — that politically, it doesn’t want peace, but wants a controlled and controllable level of perpetual emergency. Imagine that many in Israel’s government and civic life depend for their livelihoods, and have for generations, on the perception that they are continually saving Israel from an ever-imminent destruction that is always just around the next corner (but which is somehow never realized).

It makes the Lebanon conflict really interesting, doesn’t it? How did that conflict start, specifically?”

Well the Gaza Palestinians did promptly elect a bunch of folk whose mission statement said that Israel needed to be “driven into the sea.” The West Bank seems to being doing Ok under a similar arrangement, but that may be because they aren’t lobbing rockets into Israel and being generally belligerent. As time passes and Israel is realizing that the West Bank is not going to attack them they substantially eased restricition. So it seems that a 2 state solution CAN work so long as both actors develop some trust. Israel has always maintained peacful relationships wiht states that have reciprocated (see Egypt and Jordan).

In regards to point 2… That sounds a bit too much like tin-foil hattery to me. The Israeli’s want peace, war is NOT good for their economy (look at how much money they have taken in since hostilities flared up with the Palestinians, it is much better for them to have an active tourist/export trade). So what your saying here is that the Israeli’s want constant war because [blank]. How does that sentence end in a way that makes any real sense?

 
 

This is not mass slaughter, this is what happens when you attack a force that has embedded military targets in a civilian population.

Re: the war crimes assertions. Israel is targeting all sorts of facets of Hamas – non-military ones – and that’s a war crime. I hope you understand that if Hamas was competent enough to succeed in firing a rocket into the Israeli Council for Higher Education that would be a war crime too.

So the issue here is not whether or not Israel is committing war crimes: they are as currently defined. The issue is whether or not they should be allowed to do so. I say no.

 
 

In regards to point 2… That sounds a bit too much like tin-foil hattery to me. The Israeli’s want peace, war is NOT good for their economy (look at how much money they have taken in since hostilities flared up with the Palestinians, it is much better for them to have an active tourist/export trade). So what your saying here is that the Israeli’s want constant war because [blank]. How does that sentence end in a way that makes any real sense?

Except instead of the blank, I described reasons.

It’s important to note in passing that you just described the elected government of Gaza as behaving irrationally, as wanting to provoke constant war and so forth.

This is how these discussions always go. It’s tinfoil-hatted conspiracy thinking to suggest that Israel behaves underhandedly, but common knowledge that Palestinians are irrational, deceitful, motivated by bloodlust, and at fault for anything done to them.

I would suggest that the truth is a bit more nuanced.

 
 

“This is how these discussions always go. It’s tinfoil-hatted conspiracy thinking to suggest that Israel behaves underhandedly, but common knowledge that Palestinians are irrational, deceitful, motivated by bloodlust, and at fault for anything done to them.

I would suggest that the truth is a bit more nuanced.”

Wow it’s just been a Godwin-licious day. I’m did not say that the Palestinians are decietful or motivated by bloodlust (or that Israel is a white hat, they aren’t), however there seems to be a pretty good case study here of how successful different responses are vis-a-vis comparing Gaza with the West Bank. It seems like a hardline militant approach was disastrous for both sides whereas one focused on cooperation seems to have worked out OK so far (not perfect but getting better). The variable here was the Palestinian leadership.

 
 

o_e, I quoted you implying that people here are antisemitic. In the post you replied to. Nobody here has suggested that “Jews control the media” and it’s a bad-faith insinuation of antisemitism to suggest otherwise.

 
 

Djur: I was referring to things said in this thread: http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/15987.html#comments regarding the Israeli media operation. My apologies, I was just in that thread yesterday and may have gotten mixed up.

 
 

Talk, talk, talk, rationalize, juridicate, talk, talk, argue….

Look, the history books are full of regional conflicts between groups who unwillingly share a geographical base.

Every single time, people one one side have thought that they were totally,100% right, while people on the other side have thought the same thing about themselves.

What I’m getting here is that you ‘like’ Israel and want them to be the good side. Maybe if there’s ever a good side, then they are one; I don’t know.

But they certainly seem, objectively, to be acting like assholes a lot of the time, making you guys — you Israel boosters — have to find weirder and weirder reasons that they’re perpetually in the right.

As for this week’s crop, I like the rationalization that goes, ‘Israel is invading Gaza because Jews love life.’ I think it’s also because they support puppies and can turn the world on with a smile. Another fave is that Palestinians are trying to get killed to make Israel look bad. Not that it ever does, as far as you guys are concerned!

I say just put them in camps and strafe them with A-10 Warthogs, all the while complaining of the great moral depravity of a people who would force someone to strafe them with A-10 Warthogs.

No no, seriously, here’s one: The Palestinians must be crushed because of the moral harm they bring to Israel, through the necessity of generationally oppressing them.

You guys will fall for it, too.

 
 

Well the Gaza Palestinians did promptly elect a bunch of folk whose mission statement said that Israel needed to be “driven into the sea.

Does not the indisputable fact that it is NOT POSSIBLE for them to “drive Israel into the sea” in and of itself contribute to the likelihood that there are factions in the Israeli government who are CHOOSING a path of massive violence against the Palestinian people, for whatever reason they might do so?

I mean, if I stated I wanted to “Drive the Illegitimate government of Mexico into the Sea”, if that was my stated political ideology and manifesto, would the Mexican airforce be entitled then to bomb my neighborhood?

Because, honestly, Hamas no more represents an existential threat to Israel then al Quaeda represents to the US. C’mon, dude, they kill TWO Israelis a year. At that rate, the seas are going to dry up first…

mikey

 
 

Ah, the thread in which DAS literally took every chance available to insinuate that his liberal enemies, “redolent of anti-Semitism,” fail to empathize with Jews but instead desire to see them “driven into the sea.”

I don’t see anything in that thread which accused Jews of controlling the media, but I’d be willing to read an actual cite. I searched a bit and couldn’t find anything.

 
 

“But they certainly seem, objectively, to be acting like assholes a lot of the time, making you guys — you Israel boosters — have to find weirder and weirder reasons that they’re perpetually in the right.

As for this week’s crop, I like the rationalization that goes, ‘Israel is invading Gaza because Jews love life.’ I think it’s also because they support puppies and can turn the world on with a smile. Another fave is that Palestinians are trying to get killed to make Israel look bad. Not that it ever does, as far as you guys are concerned!”

I think the rational is pretty obvious: Israel invaded Gaza to stop them from lobbing rockets at Israeli cities.

Everything else is an argument about whther the response is proportional, justified or even if proportion or justice has anything to do with it. Both sides are making some pretty wako arguments.

What I am getting here is you “like” Palestine and want them to be the good side, so you need to develop a series of arguments as to why everything they do is completely justified and why Israel is always an asshole. “Objectivity” is in the eye of the beholder.

I’ll be honest, I am probably more in the Israeli camp thant hte Palestinian camp, but I can understand why the Palestinainas are doing what they are doing and the Israeli’s are doing what they are doing. Maybe there are no good guys or bad guys. Maybe their are just a bunch of dudes fucking shit up. And if so taking sides doesn’t help anything.

 
 

“I don’t see anything in that thread which accused Jews of controlling the media, but I’d be willing to read an actual cite. I searched a bit and couldn’t find anything.”

Look harder:

:”He’s the exemplar of how the PR game is rigged on Israel’s side. He has skin in the game. At the same time, you have smooth-talking Aussie-born spokesbot Mark Regev showing up on every TV station, buddying-up with people like the former JPost writer Wolf Blitzer. This is more sophisticated than “omg Joooz rule the media!”: it’s that Israel has spent a lot of time and money on creating a PR apparatus that integrates seamlessly with the US media. “

 
 

Ah, the thread in which DAS literally took every chance available to insinuate that his liberal enemies, “redolent of anti-Semitism,” fail to empathize with Jews but instead desire to see them “driven into the sea.”

MAN: Texi! Texi keb!

CABBIE: Heh-heh.

MAN: Oy, to the hotel right now, please.

CABBIE: Heh-heh. Allahu akbar!

MAN: Oy, turn dis keb around. Vhat is dis here, a fishing pier or some such thing?

 
 

What I am getting here is you “like” Palestine

This is what pisses people off: you are attempting telepathy and continuing as if you have succeeded.

 
 

“This is what pisses people off: you are attempting telepathy and continuing as if you have succeeded.”

Dude, I was using his wording to make a point. He specifically said in the previous thread the same thing about me and my feelings toward Israel.

 
 

Dude, I was using his wording to make a point. He specifically said in the previous thread the same thing about me and my feelings toward Israel.

My bad. But up to now you haven’t made a decent argument about anything that I can see except that you want us to reiterate that Hamas does bad things. That kind of flailing eventually becomes evidence I suppose.

 
 

“But up to now you haven’t made a decent argument about anything that I can see except that you want us to reiterate that Hamas does bad things. That kind of flailing eventually becomes evidence I suppose.”

Well since apparently you define “decent argument” as “things you agree with” that doesn’t give me much room to maneuver does it? /shrug

How’s this:

1. A belligerent cannot be allowed to gain a military advantage by acting illegally
2. Therefore, one is entitled to disregard (to a greater or lesser extent) civilian collateral damage which occurs as a result of the enemy’s failure to fulfill its duty to protect civilians
3. Therefore the siege of Leningard/the bombing of Gaza/the Hyde Park and Regents’ Park bombings were OK.

 
 

1. A belligerent cannot be allowed to gain a military advantage by acting illegally

Which belligerent had a military advantage?

 
 

“Which belligerent had a military advantage?”

Tha Gazans firing rockets from civilian areas. The advantage is that the Geneva conventions discourage civilian deaths so they are exploiting Israel’s reluctance (for moral reasons and as signatories to the Treaty) to attack civilian areas to gain a military advantage.

 
 

note the advantage is relative, I understand that Israel possesses overwhelming force, the point of the excercise is Gaza is using civilians in an attempt to neutralize that advantage. Right or wrong that is an attempt to exploit the Geneva articles.

 
 

Tha Gazans firing rockets from civilian areas.

I’m not sure you know what a military advantage is.

Israel’s reluctance (for moral reasons and as signatories to the Treaty) to attack civilian areas

Well, that’s through the looking glass.

 
 

“I’m not sure you know what a military advantage is.’

Look at it this way (not my words, quoted from the coments in the articel you linked):
“If someone wants to argue that Hamas using ambulances illegally means that all ambulances everywhere in Gaza ought to be subject to bombing, I would say they are crazy. But let’s say that delaying ambulance access to civilians would normally be a war crime (I don’t really know if it would be, but for the sake of argument….) If Hamas uses ambulances illegally, delaying ambulances to search them for illegal use is no longer a war crime because the illegal conduct cannot be used to gain advantage. Similarly if you put your strategic operations command on top of an apartment, while bombing apartments isn’t normally allowed, you can’t gain immunization from attack by doing so.

The problem if you don’t do so, is that you incentivize the putting of civilians in harms way—which goes exactly against the aims of the laws of war which are to incentivize the removal of civilians from harms way as much as possible. And it isn’t a theoretical problem, we have actually seen it play out that way.

Now maybe you disagree with my premise, but it seems to me that the laws of war are largely about trying to get warring parties to hash it out amongst themselves in such a way as to cause less civilian damage. It does so in two ways. First it tries to as-clearly-as-possible separate civilian people and objects from military people and objects. Second it tries to get wars over with by having the warring parties actually fight it out with each other, and kill each other, and make peace with each other. An interpretation which incentivizes human shields and the like causes problems in both those areas. If you interpret the laws of war as you seem to want to, it looks like they would put MORE civilians in harms way and that wars would be LONGER which tends to impact civilians more than shorter wars.

That seems deeply counterproductive to the purpose of the laws of war as I understand them.”

 
 

Oh fer gawds sake, it’s like “Who’s on First”.

YES!! The Palestinian militants (not civilians, the fighters) are in violation of some of the basic, reasonable “rules of warfare” You CANNOT use your opponents war crimes to justify your own war crimes. You have still commited war crimes.

It’s exactly the thing Dick Cheney refused to believe. Yes, al Quaeda attacked us on nine eleven. It was horrible. But if we commit crimes as a response to their crimes, THEY’RE STILL CRIMES.

Honestly, it just isn’t that hard to grasp…

mikey

 
 

It’s just like the argument back in ’02 that the taliban were not “entitled” to Geneva Conventions protections.

The thing some of these clowns were simply unable to grasp is that you don’t treat your enemies with respect and dignity, ensuring their protection under Geneva because they’ve somehow EARNED it, because they belong to some kind of club, or they meet some minimum qualifying threshold.

No. You treat them humanely under your treaty obligations not because of who THEY are, but because of who YOU are. What kind of society do you have? What are your core beliefs? What, at the end of the day, is simply non-negotiable?

And sadly, just as we learned the answers to these questions about ourselves, we have also, once again, learned them about our vaunted democratic allies, the Israelis…

mikey

 
 

“It’s just like the argument back in ‘02 that the taliban were not “entitled” to Geneva Conventions protections.

The thing some of these clowns were simply unable to grasp is that you don’t treat your enemies with respect and dignity, ensuring their protection under Geneva because they’ve somehow EARNED it, because they belong to some kind of club, or they meet some minimum qualifying threshold.”

No, it is nothing like that argument. This argument is related to why attacking a enemy force that has embedded itself in a civilian population is not a violation of the Geneva conventions. No one is saying once/if those enemies are captured that they are not subject to the articles of the Geneva convention regarding prisoners of war or that Israel does not have a duty to minimize civilian casualties.

The point of this argument is that Israel IS following Geneva and thus their activity in Gaza does not constitute a war crime. Civilian deaths does not necessarily equal a war crime if other criteria are present (an enemy force deliberately launching an attack from civilian centers, an honest attempt to minimize civilian casualties).

 
 

O_e,

I know, I am an evil, horrible person for even suggesting it (and of course stupid and a doofus as well)..

Nothing you have posted here gives me any reason to think you are stupid.

an honest attempt to minimize civilian casualties

How’s that one working out?

It’s ironic, you know. I’ve been to Israel a dozen times. I’m tremendously impressed with what Israelis have achieved, in a relatively short time and with few resources. Like you, if I had to choose I’d say I “like” Israel better than I “like” the Palestinians (or, to be more precise, most of the Palestinian leadership at any rate). Yet if any of the apologies for the current slaughter could shift my opinion, it would be your more-in-sorrow-than-anger jesuitry long before it would be the eliminationist shriekings of the openly genocidal fascists who are S,N!’s more usual targets.

 
 

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