I would definitely choose a train over a plane if trains were a viable alternative. Back in August, I finally made my first visit to Europe, and as I rode a train from Venice to Vienna, I kept thinking, “This is great! Why do we not have this back in the States?”

I’ll never understand why we don’t already have a good train system. I think it must have something to do with hating Europe.

We need this, and we need it thirty years ago.

The thing I miss the most about living in Europe is not being able to get places on the train.

I live in the northeast and would take the train everywhere if I had a better option.

This is indeed a good idea. And imagine all the cars taken off the roads!

Now that we might be stuck overnight some place anyway, trains are looking better and better. Restoring the national rail system could be the smartest thing Obama could do.

I completely agree.

My wife and I used rail for our honeymoon. We traveled from Windsor to Toronto, which she had never visited, and was her preferred destination.

It was an exceptionally pleasant and relaxing way to travel.

I guarantee people will ride them

Based on what part of living in the US do you make this guarantee? Most people don’t take trains. Most people will go through all they go through with planes because of a delusion it’s faster. Most people would rent a car to drive from NYC to Boston instead of taking a train.

Now, I’m with you. Trains are the shizzle. I used to live in Europe too so I know that even though our US trains are horrible, I still take Amtrak to DC instead of flying.

But we are not normal. For the majority of folks when the option is train, plane, automobile (heh…) – train comes in third.

The Eurostar fits in the British loading gauge (i.e. cross-sectional area), which means it’s much more cramped than a TGV. Get some of those instead.

Moar trainz, plz.

In Florida, every election cycle we seem to be requesting fucking railway systems, and the vote always succeeds. We want rails here. But every election cycle, that request is flat out ignored by our politicans, rarely even given the fig leaf of an excuse.

It’s enough to give you a complex.

Also, while it leans a bit heavy on the conspiracy theorist-side of my brain, I still think the absolute devastation to U.S. rail is the Big Three automotive companies & oil companies’ fault. If they weren’t set on everyone driving 70,000 miles cross-country in their fuck-you cars, paying their fuck-you gas prices, we’d have a rail system in effect everywhere.

shaking the imaginary incense censer

From your keyboard to the Flying Spaghetti Monster’s eyes, in Pasta’s name we pray…Gorgonzola!

Leon Trotsky,

You are forgetting the role of the founder of MacDonald’s! Fast food is just as much a part of the fantasy of the limitless American landscape as cheap gas 4evah, and part of the reason that suburbia thrived, leaving us all stuck with auto dependence.

Gah!

This country would have to embrace the cost to implement a good rail system, and it would make sense to do so. But unless your legislators will get free rides and numerous other goodies/payback for doing so, you will be protected from this sane act by brow-furrowing, jowl shaking elected officials.

Sorry; huge fan of rail but feeling pessimistic today.

My wife and I took Amtrak from DC to New York last week while I attended the AHA in NYC. It was great for all the reasons you listed, and it was cheap, only $100 each (one way) which was comparable to an airline. The ride was comfortable, it was a 3 hour trip but we didn’t need to get to the airport 60-90 minutes beforehand, it took us right downtown into NYC (a cheaper cab ride to the hotel), we could get a Redcap to take our luggage right onto the train, no stripping down for security, etc. The downside was the scenery was a bit depressing (lots of abandoned factories along the rail lines) but it overall we much, much preferred it to flying!

What’s the point of all our eroding wealth & power if it’s not to allow us to choose to be governed by anti-development thieves who bark anti-science rhetoric while we point and laugh at people who look like they’re all like thinking and shit with their books ha ha funny people.

I’ll never understand why we don’t already have a good train system. I think it must have something to do with hating Europe.

Maybe that, maybe the airlines and the trucking companies are not so keen and they buy Congresspeople? I honestly don’t know.

Trains = teh awesum. I agree, we need to actually build some of this stuff, at least catch up to a 20th century standard of transport.

But you’re forgetting the awesome monorails in Ogdenville, North Haverbrook, and Brockway!

But you’re forgetting the awesome monorails in Ogdenville, North Haverbrook, and Brockway!

How could I forget? Never will I question the awesomeness of monorail again.

Yeah, the Vegas train sucks. Wife and I figured it was a better idea to walk two miles on the Strip in June than take that train.

I’m lucky enough to be able to take MARTA to work here in Atlanta. It owns.

But you’re forgetting the awesome monorails in Ogdenville, North Haverbrook, and Brockway!

And Disneyland!

mikey

Nancy:

Not for nothing, but if you’re going to undermine someone’s claim by asking for citations and then not provide any citations for your OWN sweeping declarations, it takes the wind out of your sails a little bit.

The TRE between Dallas and Ft. Worth sees plenty of business.

http://www.trinityrailwayexpress.org/

Daddy, what’s a train?

I’m curious though.

Say Obama actually does manage to work this railway thing out with Congress, and the states get federal funding to put in place, and they actually *do* that instead of just embezzle the money to fuck knows what, and we finally have a train system worth crowing about.

Are we then going to have to put up with right-wing knobs making rib-nudging references to Obama “making the trains run on time”? Because, I mean, although we’re called fascists already, we don’t have a train system worth shit and so avoid that reference at least.

All of you liebruls are forgetting that Mussolini made the trains run on time, therefore trains are fascist.

“This is great! Why do we not have this back in the States?”

Back in the day, the only practical way to travel more than a few miles was by rail. To encourage the development of rail (and the associated economic growth from vastly improved transportation), railroads were granted some pretty amazing rights-of-way. Even now, try getting approval to cross a railroad right-of-way with a utility pipeline. It can be done, but there is way more red tape than you would think.

Prior to the rise of federally-subsidized highways and practical air travel for the masses, almost all long-distance travel in the U.S. was by rail. Long-distance rail travel was handled by the same railroads that hauled freight. They managed their traffic to make sure the freight trains kept going, while quickly moving passenger trains over the same tracks.

After everybody decided it was better to drive on subsidized highways, long-distance rail travel became a huge money loser for the railroads. However, as part of the charters that gave them such control over their rights-of-way they still had to provide passenger service.

Eventually, the railroads whined enough (ok, and went bankrupt enough too) to get the government to take over long-distance passenger rail travel. The railroads were so happy to get out of teh passenger business, they willingly gave Amtrak the right to run passenger trains over their rails. Unfortunately, the regulations governing the movement of trains are toothless and passenger trains can sit for hours while waiting for the freight trains to get out of the way. Heck, why disrupt your frieght schedule for some train that is just a drain on your infrastructure?

See, in the U.S., private companies couldn’t compete with subsidized highways, so the responsibility shifted to the government (like everywhere else in the world). Everywhere else in the world, governments try to do a good job of moving people by rail. Here in the U.S., certain politicians (like John McCain) think Amtrak should turn a profit, like a private business. However, Amtrak only exists BECAUSE passenger rail travel is a money loser. ARRRRGGGGHHHH!

Sorry for the lone post, but I’m a train geek. 🙂

oops, I swear I hadn’t seen Leon’s comment before I put my last one up.

I think I could live with the right-wing ribbing about it. Not like it doesn’t happen anyway, as you say.

Ha, got there first, Shecky.

In Florida, every election cycle we seem to be requesting fucking railway systems, and the vote always succeeds. We want rails here. But every election cycle, that request is flat out ignored by our politicans, rarely even given the fig leaf of an excuse.

It’s enough to give you a complex.

If I remember right, there was a high-speed rail constitutional amendment item on the ballot in 2000, which won. Then Jeb! and his buddies got another referendum on the ballot in 2004, designed to repeal that amendment. They said the rail system would be too costly. It won.

Sorry for the lone post, but I’m a train geek. 🙂

No apology necessary – I’m interested to know the reasons why passenger rail is so awful in the U.S. Thx.

And your going to get your corporate-owned pwogwessive saviour to fund train travel…how, exactly? Hold your breath? Cry and whine? Write a blog?

We also need a Dallas-Houston-Austin-San Antonio rail here.

Someday someone like Southwest Airlines (or someone else) will figure out that they’re in the people moving business (not just the airline business) and build such a thing.

Right now, the solution to traffic congestion is to provide toll road-alternate routes, which sucks. Rail would be most welcome.

SA

Over the past two years I’ve made the New York to DC trip a few dozen times. Once was by Amtrak, but every time since has been on one of the dozen or so bus companies which run routes between the major cites of the Northeast corridor. These companies have sprung up like weeds in recent years, seeing a failure in the market and filling it. Most buses are nice enough, and some even have WiFi.

The reason I (and so many others) have made these bus companies thrive is simple: the busses take just as much time as an Amtrak, but cost about $20 one way instead of $100 (or more) one way. They pick up and drop off at essentially the same locations. Thus the trains we currently have are the worst of both worlds: the cost of a plane ticket combined with the slower speed of a bus.

If there were affordable, high speed trains in the northwest corridor I know I’d be willing to give them a try, and I’m sure that a lot of my fellow bus passangers would be willing to make the switch.

You’re wrong when you say Obama doesn’t care about this. We know Al Gore does, and we know Gore has a lot of influence in Obama’s planning (of which this stimulus package is only the first step). More importantly, Joe Biden is a HUGE proponent of high-speed rail (which is what you get when your VP has taken a train practically every day for over 30 years to get to and from DC).

Don’t worry, high-speed rail is going to be a part of Obama’s legislative plan.

Elsewhere in the world, the government owns and maintains the rail infrastructure while both public and private companies handle the lest costly task of running the lines. Here in the good ol’ US of A, we follow the robber baron legacy of giving private companies the ownership of the infrastructure, who then don’t keep it up and expand it very well while simultaneously charging large use fees, which makes operation of passenger rail prohibitive.

And then you have the Bush Jr. administration a few years ago proposing Amtrak’s national budget for that year to be zero. I don’t mean zero percent change — I mean zero dollars. Nothing. Squat.

Ever since then I’ve been kind of curious about how that Amtrak meeting went down when the heads were informed that next year’s budget would be zero. Darkly amusing, I suspect.

I dunno, but I kinda think a lot of organizations would have a hard time expanding valuable services for the future if their budget wavers between “not nearly enough” and “zero”.

“AlanSmithee”

We know it’s you. Stop it. And stop thinking about “Dick”.

AlanSmithee said,

And your going to get your corporate-owned pwogwessive saviour to fund train travel…how, exactly? Hold your breath? Cry and whine? Write a blog?

Wow, that might be the perfect troll pseudonym…the same pseudonym directors use when they make a movie that’s such an utterly steaming shitpile they can’t bear the thought of having their real name attached to it. Your comment though, was more of a wet fart…not truly worthy of the lofty Smithee name.

Even though I have a big old grudge against Amtrak–I missed a much-anticipated high school reunion* because of an hours-long delay (they couldn’t spring for a fucking bus)–I have sufficient good memories of the way it used to be that I would love to see this. Given that the TSA has made air travel sufficiently inconvenient and humiliating that the airline industry is dying, it’s the least they can do.

*No shit, I was really looking forward to it, if only for the schadenfreude.

As Woodrowfan points out, you end a train trip in the city you’re aiming for without the hassle (and expense) of:

1. Schlepping through the airport to Baggage Claim.
2. Waiting/hoping for your luggage.
3. Getting from the airport to downtown via cab, bus, or rented car.

As for departing, factor in the 90-min to 2-hour early arrival time, preceded by getting to the airport (and parking), and even assuming your flight leaves on time, and assuming you don’t get hung up in ticketing or security lines that make you miss it, you’re still in for 2-3 additional hours before takeoff. It’s faster to drive many routes.

Trains are also quieter than planes, and you have landscape to look at or ignore at will.

The trains in Paris, and other parts of France were terrific. And not difficult for non French reading/speaking (me) at all. I loved France, I wanted to live there.

I think that the folks in NE Corridor & Calif ought to make a start on getting these trains, and demand (request?) the Fed Gov help out. We don’t need to sit twiddling our fingers waiting for Obama and the Dem Congress to rescue us.

The one I liked was the comedy mockumentary *about* Alan Smithee actually pissed off the director so much regarding marketing and the like that he demanded his credit be Alan Smithee as well.

Although I think it may have been the last film to *use* that credit, since I think the union changed it afterward. I forget to what.

El Cid, you hit some great points. However, the elephant in the room went unsaid. Elsewhere in the world, public spending on rail travel is seen as a good way to get a good mode of transportation. Here in the U.S. public spending on rail is EVIL SOCIALISM. Until that changes, our rail transit will continue to be awful.

I think planes could still be a viable option but if you are traveling 500 miles or less trains should be the way to go. That is what people do in Europe (I heard this from a piece on NPR about eight months ago).

Makes sense to me.

A train system could be the sort of WPA work that would have lasting benefits, just like the National Parks or electrifying the South. I think people would change their minds about train travel if a shiny new passenger-only rail system was built. It’d generate a lot of press.

for those of us who’ve never been to Vegas, what exactly is wrong with their monorail?

…the elephant in the room went unsaid. Elsewhere in the world, public spending on rail travel is seen as a good way to get a good mode of transportation. Here in the U.S. public spending on rail is EVIL SOCIALISM.

And you missed out on the Indotherium in the 1/2 bath: Elsewhere in the world, public spending which makes some sort of sense and assists the public is seen as good, whereas over here we don’t much like the anti-Jesus people who believe in evolution and fail to acknowledge the divinity of Ronald Reagan know that the purpose of public policy is simply to piss of the damn thinky think liberals and give money to the kinds of better people who happen to be related to or work with our leaders.

The fact that the old Interurban system is completely forgotten less than 100 years after its heyday, and completely unmentioned in the MSM as a comparison point to our possible rail future, sure smacks of some kind of conspiracy.

You could go from any town with a pop >5000 to ANY other town with a pop of >5000 in America nearly as easily as getting from 116 & Bdwy to Flushing Meadows.

Actually, strike that, ever since that miracle-worker MTA head left NYC for Houston (?) back in the mid-90’s.

Oh man, monorails, don’t even get me started. We have a tourist trap-ish monorail in Seattle (it goes about a mile and costs $2.50). We passed bills for new monorails five or six times before they started working on one (it was initially going to connect two of the shittiest-to-get-to parts of town to downtown), and then about a year after doing basically nothing it just sort of went poof. Thanks Seattle!

Even local rail can be a pain. Here in Massachusetts, the MBTA is slowly rebuilding a lot of the old commuter rail lines, but it’s going quite slowly due to extensive NIMBYism and a reluctance to fund improvement projects. To give an example, about a year or two ago, the Greenbush extension along the South Shore reopened, bringing commuter rail back to the MA-3A corridor after several decades of no service at all. It was opposed vehemently by some of the wealthier towns along the route, particularly Hingham; some community activists argued that they couldn’t have a train through town because the locals hadn’t had one in so long that they wouldn’t know what to do at a grade crossing.

Think about that for a moment. The NIMBYs were literally arguing that the residents of their town were too stupid to have a train. This is the level of argument we’re dealing with. Never mind trying to turn the Acela corridor into a Boston-Washington-Chicago triangle…

According to this piece on NPR, bus is better carbon-footprint-wise than diesel train. I was stunned to hear that. Electric train is probably a different story. Study performed by the Union of Concerned Scientists.

More info here.

I like trains. I think they make a lot of sense in denser locations like the eastern seaboard, around Chicago, LA / SF and Seattle / Portland. Not so sure they’d work as well for cross-country trips (echoing Brad here).

for those of us who’ve never been to Vegas, what exactly is wrong with their monorail?

It’s slow as hell, plagued by malfunctions, too expensive, and operates too far off the Strip to gain any ridership traction. A monorail at the front of each casino or underground would be a huge sell. As it is, if you’re on the Strip and want to go anywhere, you have to go through a casino all the way to the very back, then walk about 5-10 more minutes outside just to get to a station.

And of course the libertarians who don’t even like the concept of paying for the fucking roads people drive on would probably squawk about having to pay for the rails as well.

Nevermind that this is technology we had back when our president was the person buried in Grant’s tomb, and that was the absolute height of American ingenuity and persistence, linking the east and west coasts of these United States together.

basically, spending on trains is smart. not spending on trains is stupid. not being religious is smart. being religious is stupid. europe has very low rates of religious practice and lots of trains. the US has high levels of religious practice and very few trains.

not to put too fine a point on it, but john tierney should do some article about how behaving for the social good is more prevalent amongst non-religious people than amongst the religious. he could do this by cherry-picking some bullshit study, as is his wont.

i’m ready for my ride up to SF from LA in 2 1/2 hours, adn it is only 15 years away!

South fork, Washington-Richmond-Pittsburgh-Cincinatti-Chicago; north fork NYC-Albany-Rochester-Buffalo-Cleveland-Gary-Chicago; Boston/Downeaster express extension Albany-Pittsfield-Springfield (w/Hartford spur_, Worcester, Hudson, Waltham, Boston (w/Manchester/Nashua spur), Portsmouth/Kittery, Portland, Bangor

Anyone else have any good ideas for high-speed rail routes?

Atlanta-Jacksonville-Daytona-Miami (with a spur into Tampa).

One thing wrong with the SNCF in France though is the Ile-de-France centric nature of the routes. Virtually none of the highspeed rails go anywhere but the capitol, and the branch lines are slow locals. Not everybody needs or wants to go to Paris…

A good high speed rail network in the US should probably follow a grid model, with several north/south routes (west coast, east coast, and central), plus northern, middle, and southern cross continental routes). Feeder routes need to have mixture of locals and expresses in order to compete competitively with regional air travel.

Birmingham-Atlanta-Upstate SC-Charlotte-Greensboro-Raleigh

basically, spending on trains is smart. not spending on trains is stupid. not being religious is smart. being religious is stupid. europe has very low rates of religious practice and lots of trains. the US has high levels of religious practice and very few trains.

Yeah, that’s not the issue at all, and you’re kind of stupid for thinking that’s the answer.

Trains are great, and work wonderfully in many parts of the world. The Acela trains specifically have had a horrible breakdown and repair record. Amtrak was trying to improve, but the product stunk. Good local public transportation in addition to good interstate rail systems should definitely be on the agenda.

Diogenes:

That’s rather unfortunate in France’s case, as Paris is rather too far north to make a very effective hub. Why not have a sort of central backbone or loop arrangement heading south?

OneMan:

The long-haul routes I think are the best argument for passenger rail. Get some heavy rail stock with car carriers on it, you’ve got the best of both worlds — a train ticket with a car pass has got to be less than it would cost for enough gas to get from, say, Chicago to Los Angeles, and the passengers don’t have to worry about layovers or falling asleep behind the wheel (or, even worse, getting stranded along a semi-abandoned stretch of Route 66 ten miles from a gas station).

Hm, I made a mistake. I thought Richmond was further to the northwest. Never mind; extend the Washington-NYC section further south instead.

glyptodont:

I’m assuming the Tampa spur would be out of Daytona and follow I-4 through Orlando?

LA – Vegas — it’d probably take 1 hour, maybe a 1 1/2. Make it SD – OC – LA – Vegas if that helps seal the deal.

The best train trip I’ve taken in years was commuter rail from Union Station in LA to anaheim for a Sox game. It took exactly the 22 oz of Stone IPA they sold on board from gate to gate.

Con: the train back is only good if the game ends by 10.

Solution: HAVE A SPECIAL TRAIN THAT LEAVES 20 MINUTES AFTER THE LAST OUT.

Brian:

As I was glyptodont, yeah, that seems perfectly rational. We’d probably have to work out what route got Tallahassee (even though nobody except politicians give a shit about Tallahassee), but a Daytona-Orlando-Tampa route would seem very functional for most purposes.

Hm, I made a mistake. I thought Richmond was further to the northwest. Never mind; extend the Washington-NYC section further south instead.

I was about to say something. Remember your Civil War history, Richmond is SOUTH of DC…

El Cid, I used to fence (the sport not the occupation or criminal activity) in college. We had a little saying that applies here.

Touche!

I couldn’t even come close to your levels of snark and cynicsm. My hat is off to you, sir!

dagnabit, I messed up my tags. preview come back!

I have been taking Amtrak between Baltimore and New York for thirty years, first on the Metrolliner, then the Acela, and it doesn’t suck at all. Very reliable and fast enough now (2 hrs. 15 min.).

Investment in trains is great but if a company called ‘First Great Western’ comes to the states offering to run your train service use your second amendment rights and use them now!

Europe has a cracking train system. Funnily enough, the UK with it’s privatised system, is as welcoming as a shit sandwich. Just remember, the private sector is ALWAYS better than the public sector. Always.

Although I think it may have been the last film to *use* that credit, since I think the union changed it afterward. I forget to what.

I believe it’s “Uwe Boll”.

I, for one, am looking forward to the day when I can be a high-speed hobo, hoppin’ on that ole boxcar as it whizzes by at 180 mph.

Best random sex with women whose names I never learned was on Amtrak. On more than a few occasions.

Surely this must be factored into any equation regarding the value of train travel.

Regarding the Vegas monorail, what D.N. Nation said. Plus, if you’re leaving the LV Convention Center at closing time, you’ve got a 20-minute line just to get on the damn thing (for a ride that lasts maybe 15 mins. tops).

Thanks Seattle!

Yeah, but at least you get to ride the SLUT.

—

Trains rule. SF to LA would be great. NE corridor would be, too. Unfortunately, much of the west is less than ideal for rail. The populations have been built on road infrastructure and are a bit spread out to support a substantive and timely rail system. If/when gas prices go back up and stay at five bucks a gallon or more, we might see some changes in settlement habits. For now, those of us in the lieberal-commie population centers are just going to have to forge the path.

“Although terrorists like to blow up trains every now and then, there’s no chance they’ll hijack them and slam them into buildings.”

Oh yeah?

Trains. If you want to hear a lone voice in the wilderness, eloquent and curmudgeonly, railing (yeah, sorry) ’bout how we in Murka better get back on trains, it’s James Kunstler, http://www.kunstler.com/ . He’s a bit eager to see the demise of the suburbs, I’d say mainly on aesthetic grounds, but he’s got a point about trains that I bet nobody in power will take him up on until it’s too late. Geography of Nowhere explains, among other things, how the car lobby robbed us of alternative forms of transportation. Always the cash-induced myopia in the U.S, isn’t it?

P.S. I live in Germany now, and yeah, the trains kick ass. Of course, the Germans bitch about them all the time, but I dig ’em.

We also need a Dallas-Houston-Austin-San Antonio rail here.

Boy, do we ever. But we can’t even get Houston to Galveston rail. The rails used to exist, as well as streetcars in Houston.

Nice piece, Brad.

I’ve always been amazed that the Western US was never as fully rail developed (beyond the stuff that trots thru the flyover states, which would suddenly STOP being flyover states). The space is there, the population density is far easier to work around, I mean, it practically begs for high-speed rail transportation, including freight.

Although I think it may have been the last film to *use* that credit, since I think the union changed it afterward. I forget to what.

Uwe Boll?

The populations have been built on road infrastructure and are a bit spread out to support a substantive and timely rail system.

I have to disagree. Those “sparse towns” were built around railway stops, and those railways were privately owned and those stops basically served to resupply the engine rooms and stuff like that.

A high speed rail system could be ideal for developing more of the west and taking the suburban sprawl around places like Vegas and Phoenix and spreading it further out, but with a lot less density. If it takes you an hour to drive 40 miles to a job in Albuqurque, and an hour to ride a train 100 miles, you can see the advantages of rail in a minute.

Funnily enough, the UK with it’s privatised system, is as welcoming as a shit sandwich

He’s right. There are trains on the Northern Rail that make NYC subways look inviting.

Based on what part of living in the US do you make this guarantee? Most people don’t take trains. Most people will go through all they go through with planes because of a delusion it’s faster. Most people would rent a car to drive from NYC to Boston instead of taking a train.

The NYC-Boston route is one with which my family has a certain amount of experience. I don’t really drive much, but here’s my take on the other options:

* Door-to-door, the flight takes about as long as the train does. Yes, really. To be fair, I earned one of those “Elite Access” thingies after flying all over the country for my (ultimately unsuccessful) job search, so I get to stand in a much shorter line to have my stuff rifled through. Plus I rarely check bags, and I dress so that it’s easy to get through security.
* There are more flights than trains, making it easier to find a convenient trip.
* A roundtrip plane ticket is often CHEAPER than a roundtrip train ticket.
* Both of them are frequently delayed by technical problems or the weather. Amtrak seems worse, but I don’t have any hard data to back that up.
* The bus costs a LOT less, but takes much longer and is much less comfortable. It seems to combine most of the disadvantages of the plane and the train.
* The train is more comfortable than the plane, in part because you can get up and walk around. This is great for people like my mom (back problems) or my dad (prostate problems), and it’ll be great for me when I inherit both of those. Still, you are generally only spending an hour crammed into the plane, which isn’t so bad.

In the end, I’ve never had much use for the train. When it’s more expensive, it’s certainly not worth it. When it’s less expensive, there’s some other issue (typically inconvenient travel times) that cancel out the benefit. That may change if air travel becomes more difficult and more expensive, but so far the plane seems like the better bet.

Plus, the air in Back Bay is just horrendous.

Unfortunately, much of the west is less than ideal for rail. The populations have been built on road infrastructure and are a bit spread out to support a substantive and timely rail system. If/when gas prices go back up and stay at five bucks a gallon or more, we might see some changes in settlement habits. For now, those of us in the lieberal-commie population centers are just going to have to forge the path.

I don’t really buy that argument. The debate around high-speed trains isn’t about getting from door to door, it’s about getting from city to city; no matter where you live or how spread out the population is, you still go to a central station or airport to start your journey to a faraway city. I lived in the Colorado front range for 20+ years and the subject of train service between, e.g. Boulder and Denver or Denver and Colorado Springs came up regularly, with overwhelming public support. What prevented it from happening were legal battles over right of way, not the fact that there was already an excellent highway infrastructure or that the populations were largely suburban. If you can’t lay the tracks or put your trains on existing tracks, it doesn’t happen.

I guarantee you, if there were an easy-to-use and fast train service between Seattle and Denver, you’d have to book a reservation weeks in advance in order to get a seat. The current Amtrak solution SUCKS in every imaginable way, and yet I still reconsider it on a regular basis after a day of United Economy misery.

“Anyone else have any good ideas for high-speed rail routes?”

San Diego-LA-SF-Portland-Seattle, plus Sacramento, Reno, Vegas, and mebbe Phoenix and Tucson too.

SF to Portland is about the same distance as Paris to Nice, which the TGV does in 5.5 hours, and except for one approx. 100-mile mountainous stretch it’s a flat route.

However, I don’t think it’ll ever happen. Conservatives — who still control the discourse, as much as we’d like to think otherwise — will roll out their boilerplate “ZOMG train service from NY to LA LOL as if!!1!!” bullshit (thus conveniently forgetting that isn’t the fucking point), and if by some miracle they are made to STFU, we won’t have the resources to build and maintain rails and rolling stock anyway.

So for all intents and purposes, the rail infrastructure we have now is what we’ll be stuck with forevermore. *sigh*

NZ sold it’s rail infrastructure to private sector vandals, I think from Wisconsin ,who onsold to Australian private sector vandals so that last year the Government had to buy it back or face up to investing in pack mules. The caring previous owners even had the possibly world’s first (certainly NZ’s first) bridge collapse due to marine worm infestation. Maintenance is always “optional’ with these people. There are commuter trains running in Wellington and Auckland but the Auckland system is pretty rooted. The romance of the open road dealt to the railways here as well. Wellington rail is a good alternative because the road system is a very narrow corridor and has always been well supported.
High speed trains would surely be feasible in America if Japan can make them work?
I think our economic overlords haven’t like rail travel since it became illegal to shoot things from trains.

We have five Amtrak trains a day between St. Louis and Chicago, which stop in the town I live in, Alton, Illinois. Right now train service, if it runs on time, is just as fast as driving, and when gas is over $2.25 a gallon, is cheaper than driving as well. They have also made improvements to the line north of Springfield that will enable the trains to reach 100 MPH, which will almost be as fast as Japanese Shinkansen speed–of 1964. Sigh.

We’re on the list of future high-speed rail corridors, but if we see Shinkansen-level service between Chicago and St. Louis in my lifetime, I’ll be suprised.

The fact that California has THREE major cities within its borders and no major rail lines connecting them shows just how ass backwards our priorities are.

Actor212

I live in London now. The UK train system is a total mess. Have you ever had to spent any time on the London tube during rush hour? I’d rather spend an exciting weekend in a log cabin with Larry Craig with a TV that only plays Rugger Buggers #4 and me suffering from a lot of self loathing.

Damn you, you Big Bad Bald Bastard! You stole my bit!

Well, the rail lines do exist, but the service is either disconnected, or laughably slow, or both. E.g. the Coast Starlight from Emeryville to LA, which takes 12 hours if it’s on time, which it never is. The alternative is to take a bus to Bakersfield, then a train to Emeryville — because apparently our mountains, unlike Swiss or Italian or Japanese ones, are absolutely impervious to tunnel construction.

San Diego and Sacramento are both served by Amtrak and local trains too.

As much as I’d like to see the entire east and west coast rerailed for passenger service, I hope they do it right, which mean electrified rail corridors (which we had here until the ’40s), reasonable amount of service, high speed, and NO monorails. I can’t think of a successful monorail system anywhere. It is and always was pie-in-the-sky. Leave it for a decent, known-good system.

pch: Yeah, they’re there. Just not non-stop. Should have specified.

Truth be told, the line from LA to San Diego is actually pretty nice, if you have time to spare. LOTS of time to spare.

I took Amtrak from San Jose to Tacoma last summer. It took 24 hours, about 2 more than scheduled. The biggest problem is that since Amtrak doesn’t own the tracks, they are lowest in the pecking order. They have to pull over onto a siding and wait for freight trains, commuter trains, and two guys on a hand cart singing “Camptown Ladies”.
The track between Sacramento and Redding is so rough that I woke up after dreaming that I was in an earthquake that never stopped. The other problem is that I got to Tacoma after all of the car rental places near the station had closed. That doesn’t happen when you arrive at the airport.
On the other hand, sunrise behind Mt. Shasta was spectacular and crossing the Cascades was gorgeous. I had room to spread out, the food in the dining car was edible and resonably priced, and they served a decent IPA.

Have you ever had to spent any time on the London tube during rush hour?

I commuted from Regent’s Park to Canary Wharf for a bit, so that’s what? The Jubilee Line?

Yea. I have a bit of knowledge. I live in NYC, tho. I’m used to it. The only adjustment I needed to make, apart from taking the elbow pads off, was facing the wrong direction at Baker Street.

> We have five Amtrak trains a day between St. Louis and Chicago, which stop in the town I live in, Alton, Illinois.

I still have the ticket stub from my ride on the Illinois Central between Iowa and Chicago. I believe it was just a month or two before the date that they gave up the ghost on passenger service on the IC. There were three cars, maybe ten passengers including me, and a couple of ancient African-American conductors collecting the meagre fares. The seats were totally ratty, the cars stunk, and most of the lights were burned out.

You could literally (and I mean literally) see the end of the glorious and romantic Era Of Train Travel right on the spot.

> I live in London now. The UK train system is a total mess

We lived for a couple of months in a flat in Chelsea as tourists. I didn’t find the tube to be particularly bad, and BritRail was quite nice on the trips we made to Wales, Scotland, and several other places.

Of course I’m comparing this to US standards….

you’re forgetting the best part of trains: restaurant cars. you can get up, walk to the restaurant car, meet fellow travelers – it’s fantastic.

perhaps trains need to be pitched in terms of luxury (and efficiency)…

I’ll make the trolley come.

We took the train from Albany to Tampa and back for Christmas this year instead of flying. the trip was for 2 weeks, the cost was 1/2 what Useless Air would charge, and there was no risk of sitting on the floor in Reagan airport wondering if our next flight would ever leave.
on the trip, we had real 120V outlets at every seat (laptop charging, ipod charging, dvd player). changing trains in Penn station was pretty painless once we understood how the system works. occasionally the train got slightly behind schedule, but they have built in lots of space to make up time. on the return to Penn station, we were actually early.
we’d do it again, but next time we might just spring for sleeping accomodations. we’re also talking about a long rail vacation on one of the classic western routes, maybe the Empire Builder or the Chief.

oh, yes. the food in the dining car was actual, cooked food, and pretty good food at that. actual real waiters, and an actual menu with a number of choices.

Actor212

I’m new to this site so I don’t know how childish your humour is. ‘Changing at Baker Street’ has a meaning of pure filth in the UK. Interested in knowing what it means?

You Can’t Put Lipstick On A Repig said,

If the UK was OK then I fear for the states, I really do.

I’ve been told that the TGV in France runs at a profit, in fact that before a route is built an economic study must be performed and it must pencil out to be considered.

When I worked in Provence a number of years ago we would take the TGV from Aix-en-Provence to Paris for a weekend trip, leave Friday afternoon and be back Sunday afternoon. And what a pleasant way to decompress (read “try to treat the hangover”). More recently when in Spain we did the new AVE from Madrid to Seville. We were told that the schedule was guaranteed and that if more than 5 minutes late our fare would be refunded. Didn’t find out if that was true or not.

San Diego to Vancouver B.C. would be sweet but I don’t know if the Portland to San Fransisco would work out as it close to 700 miles but boy if it were feasible that would be nice, 3-1/2 hours downtown to downtown which a plane couldn’t touch.

And chiming in from Los Angeles, if you live on the west side, it’s a 20 mile trip downtown to catch a train to anywhere. Really stupid. We need a monorail over the 10 headed east to the downtown train station at least, so from there the peasants can get to Santa Barbara or San Diego You can actually get a train anywhere in the US, but with a lot of in-between bus rides – no thanks.

Time for trains! Big ones! Fast ones! And actually connecting to other trains!

‘Changing at Baker Street’ has a meaning of pure filth in the UK. Interested in knowing what it means?

I’d consider my humour fairly immature, so please, by all means! I have lots of friends over there and would love the shock value.

Great way to travel; you all know the problems, kowtowing to every freight and slow speed, but there are still fun runs even in the U.S. Kansas City to Santa Fe NM–the Superchief, I think–is great; sleep through the flats of Kansas, wake up to go through the Rockies–amazin’. But–wtf is up with an Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe railroad that, like, doesn’t actually go to Santa Fe but dumps ya out at an ancient little station half an hour away? If you don’t pre-arrange pick up, you start walking through the desert–there’s nothin there.

If the UK was OK then I fear for the states, I really do.

The Tube(r) and the NYC subway system share many things in common, among them a lot of people, a lot of noise and a lot of dirt. Most other subway systems in the States are far cleaner and better run than NYC (Boston, and perhaps Chicago might be on a par), but…NY runs 24/7, and the logistical nightmare of running a system of this size round the clock, well I’m prepared to settle, is all I’m saying.

I had the opportunity to train it from Mancs to Wigan last month. I compare that to the Long Island Railroad here (commuter rail) or MetroNorth. From that perspective, British rail systems are wanting from an amenities point of view.

Except for the rolling snackbar. That was a treat.

LOL

and two guys on a hand cart singing “Camptown Ladies”.

I hate those two guys

actor 212

Oh yes, the cup of tea provided by the northern lass. They are always so great on that trip that they call you ‘love’ and if you don’t have enough bunce then you’ll get te drink anyhow.

“I’ll make the trolley come.”

Man, I can’t even get it to breathe hard.

This is indeed a good idea. And imagine all the cars taken off the roads!

By passing hi-speed trains picking off people who drive around crossing barriers?

I’ve been told that west of Chicago the Amtrak trains experience far fewer delays due to conflicts with freight trains. Others here could probably chime in with more authority on that.

The last time I rode one was when there was still a route from the Twin Cities to Duluth, MN (quite a while ago). I’ve looked at travelling out to the west coast via the Empire Builder and one of the things I discovered was that it was much cheaper to travel if you plan your trip FAR in advance. The ticket prices seem to go up weekly until it’s far more expensive than flying. The other thing to check is what time of day you’ll be where the good views are. The trains don’t pull over at sunset so you may be travelling across North Dakota by day and then heading into the Rockies for the night portion of the route. Bummer.
My drive to work runs parallel to the Amtrak route, so most mornings I get to race with the Amtrak train heading out of St. Paul towards Chicago. Every morning I wish I could hop on that train. The trip along the Mississippi and into WI is absolutely beautiful. Trains definitely deserve more tax support.

Although terrorists like to blow up trains every now and then, there’s no chance they’ll hijack them and slam them into buildings.

Unless they’ve watched Silver Streak.

They have to pull over onto a siding and wait for freight trains, commuter trains, and two guys on a hand cart singing “Camptown Ladies”“I Get a Kick Out of You”.

Fixed that for you.

I don’t have a cite handy, but the newsletter of the National Association of Rail Passengers had a recent piece about fines finally being levied against Conrail for abuse of right-of-way vis-à-vis Amtrak. Because it turns out that passenger trains aren’t always as low-priority as they appear to be, but that (1) the freight companies repeatedly flout the law, and (2) the Amtrak engineers inexplicably refuse to be drawn into games of chicken.

I took a train for the first time last summer, from Emoryville to Ft. Lauderdale. Ok, five days in a train was clearly too much, and the fact that we repeatedly had to just sit there in the middle of nowhere waiting for freight trains to get the hell out of our way was irritating, but all those other pluses you mentioned? Right on. I can’t wait for the opportunity to take high speed rail from the bay area to LA instead of driving or flying.

I’ve been told that west of Chicago the Amtrak trains experience far fewer delays due to conflicts with freight trains.

That’s about to change.

I’ve been told that west of Chicago the Amtrak trains experience far fewer delays due to conflicts with freight trains.

The Southwest Chief to LA via Albuquerque has been pretty good at on-time performance when I’ve ridden it. BNSF added some parallel track that might have helped. The California Zephyr, OTOH, was plagued by serious delays. No idea about the Empire Builder to Seattle.

“Big ones! Fast ones! And actually connecting to other trains!”

I’m reminded of the utterly nonsensical fact that the 2 Amtrak stations closest to SF (Emeryville and Jack London Square) are nowhere near any BART stations.

Double-you tee eff. Seriously. I mean, come on.

Google gives me nothing regarding cups of tea and northern lasses. OTOH, Baker Street? It’s the only place where you can change from the pink to the brown. /rimshot

Though I did learn another amusing euphemism during this search: Playing the B-side.

See? What would S,N! be without your daily dose of Teh ButtSex.

> You Can’t Put Lipstick On A Repig said,
> If the UK was OK then I fear for the states, I really do.

I have sat in the NYC subway, at a station, with the doors not opening for >1/2 hour.

I have sat in the NYC subway between stations for >1/2 hour with no movement at all.

I have sat in a car in the guts of the Holland Tunnel for >1 hour while traffic moved nary an inch.

These were in the 80’s. Things got a lot better in the 90’s because they got a new MTA head in who fixed a lot of things. Then he left, sometime in the late 90’s. Things started going to hell again, although there must be some better management at the Port Authority since the tunnels rarely have delays these days, at least as massive as the old days.

They have monorail in vegas?

What we need is national ownership of rails, not the trains. The current rails are owned by a patchwork of companies that have no reason to maintain them over an early eighteen hundreds level of service.

Google gives me nothing regarding cups of tea and northern lasses.

That’s not the dirty bit. That was in reference to the “rolling snack carts”.

Change from pink to brown. Oh yes, that should have been evident.

The track between Sacramento and Redding is so rough that I woke up after dreaming that I was in an earthquake that never stopped

They often replace that section with busses, even. The Cascades crossing and the LA mountains are tight spots, yes, and if there’s any construction, the Amtrak just stop running and put everyone on busses because the freight companies won’t help them.

Also, isn’t it stupid that rental counters at a train station aren’t open when there’s a train there? Like duh, that’s a minority of time, get someone out there to meet the damn train.

V., v. pro train. Sure the BART cops are trigger happy, but the reason why our crap high density houses sell for so much in the East Bay is because BART works on the whole well. Gets you to the city in 45 minutes, $3.50. What a blessing that LA finally smartened up and got light rail. And if anyone wants to see functioning heavy rail in California, try the baby-bullet between San Francisco and San Jose–I believe it is the fastest train west of the Aleghennies (sp.)
Some day they’ll have high-speed rail between LA and San Francisco, and I’ll be getting a senior discount on my first ride, that’s for sure. But even the Amtrak is doable–it’s an all day thing, but so is I-5. And you can drink on it, before arriving at a Bakersfield terminal, where they have busses straight out to the Inland Empire or Santa Monica. Works well, when it works.

By the way PCH13, there’s BART/Amtrak connections in Richmond and at Coliseum station. Both of them, as I’m sure you’ve guessed, are in the worst neighborhoods in the world, though Richmond’s platform is relatively safe during daylight hours.

British ex-pat here. I love taking the train–almost any train ride is better than driving for hours in heavy traffic, and to my mind, it would be a wonderful and less stressful alternative to flying, too, especially when you consider the time one spends going through security, walking through miles of airport corridors (as with Miami Intl.) and taking a cab into town. I live in Florida, where we need rail like there’s no tomorrow, but as others have noted, powerful politicians manage to get the idea knocked down and thrown out every time it gathers any sort of critical mass.

I recall one skirmish that involved Disney World not letting the proposed train have any station(s) located at their theme park unless it was guaranteed to them that no other theme parks would have stations. Disney is very powerful, but so are some of the other nearby places (i.e. Universal Studio). And as a result of the bickering and lawsuit threats and support-pulling and power-playing–not to mention the “government wants to take your money!” wails of the usual wingnuts–Florida’s cities still have ghastly traffic, antiquated interstate and intra-state roads that get worse with every passing month, and no decent rail (unless you count the citrus-carrying ones that regularly disturb my big, loud dogs–and, in turn, me–at three in the morning.)

litbrit:

And of course since they know they have us trapped, they keep tearing up the roads for miles on end to build a new freeway or highway off-ramp or whatever.

Also, on the topic of “terrorists on trains”, the only assholes I even recall as messing with the trains were either before my time (Mr. Death Wish on the NYC subway) or all-purpose nutjobs (that guy on the LIRR back in the 80s?). I’m sure there must’ve been something more recent then that, right?

RvB: thanks for the clarification. So if you want to get from SF to an Amtrak station you have 4 options, none of which is particularly appealing.

BTW I’ve used the Coliseum BART station a few times and never realized there was an Amtrak stop there too. Huh.

Except you don’t get even get peanuts anymore, due to the crying bitchery and lawsuits from people with peanut allergies. Because ME eating a peanut will somehow kill THEM? Now we get pretzels. And not even like, honey-mustard pretzels. Or giant soft ones. Tiny, dry, stale, lightly salted, boring-ass pretzels. Feh.

I took the train the last time I had to go from the East Bay to the South Bay, and it was the most awesome travelling experience ever. My sister got married in Southern California last fall, and I would have loved to have taken the train down there, but of course it would have taken forever just to traverse half the state. Stupid lame crappy infrastructure!

Except you don’t get even get peanuts anymore, due to the crying bitchery and lawsuits from people with peanut allergies.

You may discover anti-peanut hysteria receding somewhat: the six-year-old is currently allowed to be a little more free with the deadly peanut butter.

I remember back in August 2001 the Washington Post had a series of editorials supporting rail investment and championing it as the next cause for the Democrats. Timing, meh.

Trains are awesome. No hassle getting to the airport because the train station is always in the heart of downtown. If you are traveling with a friend, grab a six pack, walk straight on the train with no security hassle, and grab one of those seats where they face each other. Crack open your beers and its really not so different from grabbing a booth at your local watering hole during an off night. Spend a couple hours laughing with your friend over some drinks, grab your bag, and walk off the train right into the center of downtown of a whole knew city.

Its like barhopping only this bar hops you all the way over to a new city! Its amazing.

Except you don’t get even get peanuts anymore, due to the crying bitchery and lawsuits from people with peanut allergies.

It is odd how common those allergies seem to be these days. You got your Boomers, Gen X, Gen Y, Millennials, and the Nut Allergy Generation.

Just one of the reasons I think kids today have it rough.

Anybody got decent data on straight Electric vs. Diesel/Electric economics? Stuff found on Teh Great Gazoogle is rather contradictory, at best. Personally I’d rather any major initiatives in US interurban rail be electric since it is a lot less noisy and can utilize power from a number of different sustainable sources, but suspect buildout costs plus efficiency concerns will keep D/E in the picture for a long time.

Technically speaking, pch, Transbay Terminal is Amtrak. They have a bus that’ll haul you to Emeryville, and I bet it costs. The walk from 12th Street BART to Jack London isn’t any fun, either, but there’s some kind of a shuttle that does it.
Union City BART is pretty close to Union City Amtrak, but how close beats me. One day I’ll go down there on my bike and find out.
The things we do to keep rail going. Anyway: highly hopped ale, acoustic music, trains: an eternal golden braid.

I lurve trains, although we’ve got bugger-all down here: damn country’s too big, and the population’s spread thinly in the frilly bits around the edge.

But Hong Kong is my transport dream: subway (6 or 7 lines, when I was last there), old rattly double-decker trams on the island, several train lines (including the Airport Express), boggins of double-decker buses, and the notorious mini-buses that race all over the territory. Plus the cross-harbour ferries and the island ferries.

Intervals between trains on the subway are about 5 minutes, and they run from about 6 am to about 2 am. The Airport Express takes about 1/2 an hour to get into Central, and the ferries take about 5 or 10 minutes to cross the harbour. Means that you can get from anywhere to anywhere in reasonable time at any time. Just a dream.

Sigh. I wish I could afford to go back there, just to enjoy the public transport.

Unlike planes, you don’t have to go through a bunch of crazy security procedures just to board. No taking off your shoes, no emptying out your laptop, no placing your shampoo in a plastic baggie.

Some time in 2003 or 2004, I was taking a Greyhound down to Memphis to visit a friend. Before we could get on, though, they X-Rayed and searched our bags, we had to remove our shoes, and they patted us down. I joked with the other customers that they were afraid we’d hijack the bus and drive it into the Memphis Federal Building.

And chiming in from Los Angeles, if you live on the west side, it’s a 20 mile trip downtown to catch a train to anywhere. Really stupid. We need a monorail over the 10 headed east to the downtown train station at least, so from there the peasants can get to Santa Barbara or San Diego You can actually get a train anywhere in the US, but with a lot of in-between bus rides – no thanks.

Ask ol’ Henry Waxman about that. The Red Line can’t get past the fucking Wiltern because HW doesn’t want it going to Santa Monica. He blames “earthquakes” or “gas lines” or some such bullshit, but it’s NIMBY o-rama.

That said, there’s supposed to be a Culver City spur coming online in the next century or so (allegedly 2010, but i’m being practical). This is the Metro Wish List, and would be teh awesome if they get serious about it.

Just Alison – Hong Kong was the best and easiest transport I’ve ever experienced. And the “octopus” card – what a concept! Good for every form of transit including the ferries. Bought a handbag there with a purpose-built pocket in its bottom for sliding over the transit sensors – no fumbling! Plus the walkways, the escalators… oh my. And THE DUMPLINGS. OH MY GOD. Yes, I’d go back in a minute.

the richmond amtrak-bart transfer is pretty seamless, folks. exit amtrak train, thank conductor, descend staircase, enter bart faregates (without even exiting the building), ascend staircase, success.

also, amtrak sells $10 bart tickets for $8 in the snack car. awesome!

…as I rode a train from Venice to Vienna, I kept thinking, “This is great! Why do we not have this back in the States?”

Every American who has visited Europe or Japan thinks this at some point. Maybe that’s why conservatives seem so down on foreign travel: it’s pretty difficult to keep believing “USA Number 1!!” when faced with a stark reminder of at least one area where we are generations behind.

Hmm.

Obama might possibly be extending the Lincoln comparison. Lincoln was a railroad lawyer. It would be awesome to bring the US train system back to its original status as the envy of the world.

However, Amtrak at present sucks worse than the communist Chinese rail system. I speak from experience. When the inventors of the transcontinental railroad can’t keep up with the world’s greatest copiers of cheap plastic shit, that is a major embarrassment.

Canadian gov’t has a similar plan to Obama’s for infrastructure repair and improvement (to create jobs/keep people working) but because our guys in power are Bush lite, expect major failures and a lack of oversight.

we’ve got bugger-all down here: damn country’s too big, and the population’s spread thinly in the frilly bits around the edge.

Not so very different from the U.S., then – I live in Salt Lake City, Utah, which is the very heart of flyover country. Then again, it’s got a great history as a railroad town (and even more so my childhood hometown of Ogden, which is nearby). It was not too far from here that the “Golden Spike” was driven, where the east and west U.S. railroads met to form the transcontinental.

Viva rail!

Until the early-20th century, North America was blessed with a HUGE railcar & trolley network: dirt-cheap, reliable as hell & could get you withing waking if not spitting distance of wherever you wanted or needed to get … then along came the corporate whorehouse to sell everyone their magical horseless-buggy.

while it leans a bit heavy on the conspiracy theorist-side of my brain, I still think the absolute devastation to U.S. rail is the Big Three automotive companies & oil companies’ fault.

Well, in fact General Motors was long ago found guilty in a court of law of basically conspiring to destroy urban light-rail across the US, so patently so that they didn’t even appeal it … & an appeal wouldn’t’ve been worth it anyway: I believe the harsh government sanction they were punished with was a $250 fine.

Yeah – take a wild guess at any rail-oriented American national transportation plan always gets gutshot as soon as it gets anywhere near DC.

That’s rather unfortunate in France’s case, as Paris is rather too far north to make a very effective hub. Why not have a sort of central backbone or loop arrangement heading south?

Because France is a very centralised nation, and everything in France revolves around Paris. Politics? Paris. Finance? Paris. High culture? Paris. Low culture? Paris.

Britain’s sort of the same with London. Getting from Oxford to Cambridge is a pain (most feasible route is Oxford-Paddington-Tube-Liverpool St-Cambridge) and some of the cross country routes, esp. east-west are a pain. You can’t get from north Wales to south Wales without going through England, because the train lines were all about getting stuff from bits of Wales to England.

Still, all that said, I miss the crappy British railway system compared to the barely-existent American one.

If the UK was OK then I fear for the states, I really do.

You shoud. If your nym is anything to go by, you’ve got Temple Meads and Parkway (two! stations!) which connects you up to pretty much everywhere without huge hassle. (I’ve done the trip out west there a few times: Cardiff, Swansea, Bristol, Bath, Gloucester, even bloody Swindon.) Yeah, the up and down routes on the west coast can be a pain, and going cross-country usually sticks you in the bunker that is Birmingham New Street, but honestly, when I consider that the nearest Amtrak station is about two hours’ drive away, I’m not going to complain about egg and cress sandwiches.

What I love about trains? You can get shit done on a train.

The long-haul routes I think are the best argument for passenger rail. Get some heavy rail stock with car carriers on it, you’ve got the best of both worlds — a train ticket with a car pass has got to be less than it would cost for enough gas to get from, say, Chicago to Los Angeles….

Brian: Mr Nearing and I frequently take Amtrak’s AutoTrain from Lorton, Virginia, to Orlando, Florida. (Mr. Nearing is a baseball freak and spring exhibition games beckon.) Our experience has been great. The Amtrak staff is efficient in loading and unloading the cars (takes less time than you’d think). The nonstop trip is not particularly scenic but the food and booze are good. The sleeper compartment (if you spring for one) is snuggly. And the next morning, after a nice breakfast, you’re in Orlando, back in your car, and getting lost on I-4.

I know the Evil Empire kinda gets yer guys knickers in a knot but they are going whole hog over here and the trains are great. They bring around a little cart with snacks for sale, you know spicy duck tongue, pickled unknown vegetable, tofu chips, etc. One problem is that even though the seats are assigned sometimes you still have to go through the same train station scrum for the fast trains you do for the local trains, no chickens or ducks on the fast trains though. They are starting to have airport style waiting rooms at some of the newer stations for the fast train passengers. The best thing is that the cost is only about 25% more than a sleeper on the old overnights. Good ol’ China High-Speed Rail…

350 km/h Railways

• Beijing–Tianjin Intercity Rail, opened in 2008.

250 km/h Railways

• Qinshen Passenger Railway(PDL), Shenyang to Qinghuadao the first PDL high-speed line in China opened in 2003
• Jiaoji Passenger Railway(PDL), Jinan to Qingdao, 360km in length, new passenger or freight double-tracks along existing lines, opened in 12/23/2008
• Shitai Railway Shijiazhuang to Taiyuan, 183.93km in length, opened in 1/1/2009(Newly built railways)

200 km/h Railways

• Jiaoji Railway (Upgraded conventional railways)
• Most of Zhegan Railway (Upgraded conventional railways)
• Part of Guangshen railway (Upgraded conventional railways)
• Part of Jinghu railway (Upgraded conventional railways)
• Part of Jingguang railway (Upgraded conventional railways)
• Part of Longhai railway, from Zhengzhou to Xuzhou (Upgraded conventional railways)
• Hening Railway Hefei to Nanjing, 166km in length, opened in 4/18/2008(Newly built railways)
• Hewu Railway Hefei to Wuhan, 409km in length, opened in 12/31/2008(Newly built railways)

The Chinese Ministry of Railways plans to construct 12,000 km high-speed railways with speed limit more than 200km/h by 2020.[1].

Funnily enough, the UK with it’s privatised system, is as welcoming as a shit sandwich

Is getting better. When i was back home in Scotland over the holidays, I took the train a few times, and it was efficient and a lot cleaner than I remember. Still not a patch on Europe, though. Every time I get stuck at an airport, I pine for the Amsterdam-Paris Thaylis, ah, happy times.

Burn, Hollywood, Burn: An Alan Smithee Film?

“You can’t get from north Wales to south Wales without going through England, because the train lines were all about getting stuff from bits of Wales to England.”

Slightly unfair – a quick look at a topographical map of Wales might show you why the tracks take the flatter route to the east…

The UK rail system is pretty good these days, and I include the Tube in that. Not up there with Switzerland, but better than non-TGV SNCF and non-Thalys Netherlands Rail.

I love trains in general, but my Amtrak experience from Montreal to DC and back was something again. Aside from sitting near three of the stenchiest people ever and listening to a man swear nonstop for half the trip to NYC, I had to change not just trains but stations in NYC and there was nowhere to sit as all the benches were being used by the homeless.. When we were on the train waiting to leave NYC the electriciy went off and we sat there in the dark, holding onto out valuables, for over an hour. On my return trip, I was shot at and the bullet hole was inches from my face. Fortunately the glass was quite bullet proof and didn’t go all the way through. On the other hand, the trains in Europe and Canada are very good and comfortable. Any investment in Amtrak would be fabulous.

AlisonS, if you had to change stations in NYC, then one of two things is true: either your trip was many years ago, because Amtrak hasn’t used Grand Central Terminal for regular service for a very long time, or else it was a temporary situation due to work on the tracks from the Hudson line to Penn Station (this was true a couple of months ago; Amtrak was running busses between Grand Central and Penn for a little while.)

The photo is out of date; that’s the temporary international terminal at Waterloo station, on an unusually good day. The Eurostar now comes into St. Pancras station, which is markedly cooler, and allows trains to run through from the northern main lines. They only do this with freight so far, but the spur track is in place.

It took a while, but we had to drill a tunnel under the Thames at the level where you can take a giant tanker, the Ford plant, and then under several miles of city to link up with the Great Northern and the Midland.

Because I wanted to make a one-way trip, I was interested in getting from Indianapolis to centrap PA (State College). Train options are worse than atrocious. It takes FOREVER and MORE.

By the way of contrast, Greyhound is surprisingly good: 13 hours (plus one hour extra, on the account of snow in PA). I could not figure out why folks are taking Greyhound from Colorado to New York (yes, not EVERYBODY flies). Do you know that direct train from Indianapolis to Philadelphia makes it in 20 hours, with the average of under 40 mph? And three times a week to boot! How come that few people take this train? And to Pittsburgh I would have to go through Chicago, so still not faster, and the routes are ridiculous in general.

Now, I have European experience, and trains from Poland to Russia (like Warsaw — St. Petersburg) are actually in the same league, speedwise. However, the operation of changing undercarriages on Polish-Belorussian border takes 1-2 hours, and the political situation between two countries stinks, which makes railroad improvement a matter of low priority. Still, the ticket was cheap and the place excellant: sleeping compartment for two, with good linen, and unlimited hot water from samovar (well, with my cultural background you appreciate it, but again, this is an actual convenience for folks who actually take the train; I guess Amtrak should offer vending machines and sleeping places).

Then there is a comparison of the quality of buses in Eastern/Central Europe and Greyhound. Sadly, Greyhound is quite inferior. Do you know that in the less civilized countries they show movies on long distance buses, and offer drinks, and in the toilet you can wash hands, and the seats are more convenient (being manufactured by Mercedes does not hurt, I guess)?

In a better universe, there would be some coordination between Amtrak and Greyhound, so people would take trains and not buses from Colorado to New Jersey. You must imagine how much the inland routes must suck for that to happen. And this is a fair comparison — of course planes are faster. But to loose to buses that every 3 hours or so stop for 1/2 to full hour?

The bottom line is that for comparable train service, you must go to Eastern Europe, to the parts where service declined from the Soviet times.

Back to Greyhound: they have some fascistic prohibitions, like no weapons on board, and warning that they can check your luggage, but somehow nobody checked me. Also, I think that they really mean firearms, not tweezers. One should try if one can board a bus with a katana, Kill Bill style.

The last issue, weapons on board, gave me an idea:

perhaps they should be allowed, and proudly so!

and we would get some GOP support for Amtrak in the process.

I would also add drinking age lowered to 18 on board of trains. Drunken driving was ostensibly the main reason for raising the drinking age, Also, I have seen travelers going from Pittsburgh to Baton Rouge on a train with a case of beer. It really decreases the tedium of long distances (they generously allowed me to partake, I should add).