And if he begins to fail, one suspects he’ll try to figure out why and see if he can correct the course, rather than holding his hands over his ears and chanting “we’re making progress, progress on the ground, makin’ good progress, hard work” over and over again…

mikey

You know what might be an interesting experiment? Reading out Dubya’s speeches with a voice actor impersonating Obama and see if they sound any better or if it just makes the crazy easier to find.

You just don’t realize yet how far W lowered the bar. Being able to express yourself well enough to be understood is supposed to be a minumum requirement.

Really, he could free Mumia and make him attorney general, but does that restore credibility, which I’d say is a big part of the mandate. Appointing people with established credibility will do that. I don’t know what Hillary brings to Obama’s State Dept. except that she will already be accepted by most foreign leaders, oh and she won’t be subtley undercutting the administration from her Senate position. Plus she’ll be out of town a lot more, which is a good deal for everyone, so Bill advises.

Yeah, but he says “um” sometimes! What a dummy! LOLOLOLOL!

I mean, Heh.

Y’know, I was just reading David Sirota’s recent hand-wringing over the fact that Obama isn’t the second coming of Progressive Jesus and I was amazed at how short the honeymoon is. After all, doesn’t Big O get to actually be inaugurated before everybody gets to express how disappointed they are in him?

Me, I’m a Sensible Centrist and, as much as I’d like to see a little more aggressive public policy than Obama is shaping up to deliver, I’m willing to wait and see what he actually does before I give up on him.

his over-reliance on Villagers for key cabinet positions is very problematic

One of the keys to the rise of Obama’s political star has been his willingness to play ball; he’s one who can preach about the evils of The System but still work within it. Yeah, a lot of these folks were only smart enough to skip town before the meltdown happened, but I see Obama’s point here- most with Democratic leadership cred will have something to do with the Clinton WH. As long as he can get his puppets to dance, he can be successful.

And I’m wondering who a President McCain would have picked. Toward the end, I don’t think Camp McCain had a damn clue about what they would do had they actually won the election. I’m guessing a mix of Phil Gramm types and Super Sarah’s 3rd-grade friends. Yippee.

Uhh, excuse me?! Are you calling Obama articulate?

You know what might be an interesting experiment? Reading out Dubya’s speeches with a voice actor impersonating Obama and see if they sound any better or if it just makes the crazy easier to find.

Edmund wins the Most-Meta Award.

OneMan said,
December 2, 2008 at 18:09
Me, I’m a Sensible Centrist

So you’re for absolutely nothing at all. Awesome.

I’m getting a little tired of people telling me how I should feel about Obliterate Iran at Secretary of State and a couple of Rubinites running the economy.

By the by, the addendum to Sirota’s last column is even more insightful:

http://openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=10231

But let’s not let that get in the way of our praise for the guy who so far has accomplished the following:

Not John McCain

most with Democratic leadership cred will have something to do with the Clinton WH

…if you don’t count congressmembers, professors, sundry high-ranking bureaucrats, union officials, und so weiter.

I’m trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, but early signs look like Clinton II. And, despite the comparisons with worst-case scenarios like W and McCain, that would really suck. Clinton governed to the right of Nixon.

I, for one, welcome our verbose overlord.

Uhh, excuse me?! Are you calling Obama articulate?

He’s clean, too!

Clinton WH types might work. And talk about bar-lowering: Bush/Cheny did much of their lower level hiring from the ranks of loyal, enthusiastic, utterly inexperienced young college Republicans.

Obama will have no problem with schoolin’ his people. And Hillary Clinton, whatever disagreements you have with her, wants to – has always wanted to – make things better. So does Obama. When the going gets tough, neither of them is apt to go trail bike riding instead. They’re actually interested in public policy and things that are hard to figure out. Bush II was most profoundly not engaged. Our job isn’t to refrain from saying rude things; our job is to see that they work the problems. We’ve got some problems to work ourselves, every last one of us, in every city, town, and neighborhood.

I’m trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, but early signs look like Clinton II. And, despite the comparisons with worst-case scenarios like W and McCain, that would really suck. Clinton governed to the right of Nixon.

Yea, I miss the universal prosperity and world peace, too…

Doc, I don’t know how old you are, but do you recall when Clinton tried, really tried, to govern as a liberal?

His own Democratic congress handed him his ass.

Please. One can hope it will be different for Obama, one can hope that Pelosi and Reid will have learned the lesson.

And one can hope monkeys fly out of my butt.

That kind of observation is so three weeks ago.

Don’t you know that all the cool liberals are completely sick of Obama already?

But at least if he fails, he’ll fail eloquently. That counts for something.

You betcha.

I’m way too old to worry about the cool factor. I don’t fucking care about the cool factor.

Hell, anybody that thought Barack “Casper Milquetoast” Obama was going to be a raging progressive wasn’t paying attention (and I say that as somebody that worked the phones for the guy).

I expect he’ll be a touch to the left of Clinton (i.e. a hair center-right). But contrary to some folks opinion, being “not John McCain” makes a huge difference.

actor212 said,
December 2, 2008 at 18:27
Yea, I miss the universal prosperity and world peace, too

Clinton years…world…peace…

[head asplode]

I noticed he didn’t even ask for any motherfuckin’ iced tea.

Also.

I’m trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, but early signs look like Clinton II. And, despite the comparisons with worst-case scenarios like W and McCain, that would really suck.

I say this with the most aggressive apathy imaginable:

Meh.

This is the ‘pulling-America-out-of-the-ditch’ phase; ideology’s not important right now, competence is.

I’m old enough to remember the first George H.W. Bush press conference as preznit. I was astounded that he was actually talking to reporters, not in complete sentences of course, but talking nonetheless. In his later years, Reagan had done such a good job of just brushing past with his hand to his ear pretending he could hear. As bad as things are right now, I’m glad at least that the expectations are so low. And I don’t think anyone but raging wingnuts thought Obama was a raging liberal. I don’t think he was perceived as being as liberal as either Gore or Kerry for starters. and and and, I don’t think it was the Democratic leadership in congress that tanked Clinton’s liberal agenda. It was Clinton’s idea to prioritize balancing the budget, welfare reform etc. That and the Republicans plus the remaining blue dog democrats that scuttled health care reform and then the Republican took the Senate in ’94 and it was time to play compromise ball.

Look, I have no love for Clinton, but Obama has really three choices in terms of staffing

1) Keep on Bush appointees
2) Use people who worked for the Clinton Administration who have executive experience at the federal level and know the ins and outs of the federal bureaucracy
3) Bring in people from outside of Washington who have no idea how to manipulate the levers of power

Since Obama is a fairly centrist person (more to the right of me certainly) and shows a fair bit of pragmatism, his use of Clinton staffers is neither surprising nor especially bothersome. I’m not above wondering whether or not they are good picks, or even worrying about what they mean. But he hasn’t been inaugurated yet, so maybe we should you know, hold his feat to the fire on our various pet issues (Iraq, Bush crimes, etc), but also wait and see how he actually governs?

Also, Clinton as Sec State was likely political. Agree with her or not, she came close to winning the nomination and is a power in her own right. Likely this position is payback for her reaching out to her supporters and going to great lengths to get Obama elected. Perhaps she isn’t the best choice for the position on a purely pragmatic grounds, but on purely politically pragmatic grounds it would have been hard not to give her Sec State or an equivalently prominent position in either Cabinet or the Hill.

But let’s not let that get in the way of our praise for the guy who so far has accomplished the following:

Not John McCain.

“So far” being defined as hasn’t officially started the fucking job yet.

Hence I feel perhaps we shouldn’t be so quick to blindly defend his terrible choices.

I’m just happy that for the next four years I am not going to have the urge to throw the TV out of the window the moment the President’s mug comes on. It’s really very strange, actually having to deal with content in a Presidential speech. I’ll get used to it, I’m sure, but it’s odd.

Who exactly is “blindly defending” any choices? Your view is they are terrible. Someone else’s view may be that they are not terrible. Am I to understand that anybody who expresses the latter view — or suggests waiting to see what happens before condemning the choices — is “blindly defending”? Is it just because you have sole access to the One Truth? Your opinions are well-reasoned and carefully thought out, while disagreement can only be blind and thoughtless?

Here’s my answer to that position (actually, it’s my second answer, right after “Fuck a bunch of that”): Perhaps we shouldn’t be so quick to blindly attack his wonderful choices.

I’m getting a little tired of people telling me how I should feel about Obliterate Iran at Secretary of State and a couple of Rubinites running the economy.
.
.
But let’s not let that get in the way of our praise for the guy who so far has accomplished the following:

Not John McCain.
.
.
Hence I feel perhaps we shouldn’t be so quick to blindly defend his terrible choices.

There has yet to be an instrument invented that can measure my indifference to your remarks. Liberal crybabies bore me to death.

Hence I feel perhaps we shouldn’t be so quick to blindly defend his terrible choices.

Terrible. C’mon, man.

OneMan said,
December 2, 2008 at 18:09
Me, I’m a Sensible Centrist

So you’re for absolutely nothing at all. Awesome.

Excuse me?

Exactly what evidence do you have for that statement?

Tell me, exactly, just how you think Big O can deliver sparkle ponies for all with the upcoming trillion dollar deficit? Not to mention two wars, a collapsing economy, states that are shit out of money, etcetera ad nauseum.

I’ll settle for Not Torturing People, Closing Gitmo, Bringing Teh Iraq War To An End, Maybe Restoring Teh Constitution, plus Universal Healthcare and Not Further Fucking The Economy.

That OK with you?

I just love it when I hear liberals say that, “Obama is a centrist”, or, “He’s not progressive enough”, waahhh!

Whats next, are you naive simpletons gonna say that Karl Marx was a moderate? I’ve always wondered to myself, how in the hell does a leftist, anti-American child-molester like Barney Frank keep getting elected, even after his extreme leftwing voting record, less than noble personal life, and outrageous comments of the higest level of moonbattery?

However, after reading this blog, if the people of his district are as far-left as you people are, than its not hard to see why “tigger” keeps getting elected.

Bringing Teh Iraq War To An End…plus Universal Healthcare…Not Further Fucking The Economy

Ha ha ha oh wow.

Also wow Gary Ruppert appears to have spawned.

who so far has accomplished the following:

Not John McCain

And thank fucking God for that. I suppose you would prefer that McCain had been elected?

So you’re for absolutely nothing at all. Awesome.

Hmm, how about you go fuck yourself with a wheelbarrow full of that.

For the record, I expect to dislike a great many of the things Mr. Obama will do as President. Oh, well. I expect to dislike them quite a bit less than virtually anything done by the office in the last eight years. As I do not perceive the world in a strictly black-and-white, with us or agin’ us sort of way, this looks like a step in the right direction to me.

I had no idea people had so much adoration for non-committal centrism. Maybe Clintionian Triangulation IS the new black.

Travis Disaster-

You’re not going to be happy for the next four years. Or eight year. Or…ever.

Just a warning.

It’s not so much a love for centrism, though there’s nothing wrong with that.

It’s that you’re an asshole.

It’s that you’re an asshole.

And, the true crime here, an un-funny one.

“Hey dude just stop complaining and learn to love Obliterate Iran”

Got it, check.

Oh, goody! new concern trolls. I was getting tired of the same ole, same ole.

It’s obvious why you Obots hate Travis Disaster, it’s because he’s taken the wool from your eyes and formed an arrow at it, an arrow pointing directly to the misogyny and brutal centrism, as well as radical leftism, of the Obambi disaster of a stolen administration, one that thinks it can appease the Reagan Democrats and true blue Democratic heart of Appalachia by muzzling Hillary Rodham Clinton in Foggy Bottom, and one that doesn’t realize that eight million pairs of boots walking away will be their undoing as Obambi sells his and the progressive soul over to Jeremiah Wright and David Broder alike, unable to see the damage he’s doing until it’s too late. But yes, pile on Travis Disaster, you Obots, unable to see your failure, your undoing, your hatred of women, and the disaster you have created.

Agreed, Iris. Obama is very bad and a liar and not progressive, like me! Ralph Nader(TM).

Dance, puppets, dance!

Clinton years…world…peace…

[head asplode]

You misspelled your own name? There are TWO “s” in ASS!

I’d give that Iris post 10/10 but it’s clear that Iris had that pre-written and just used a find-replace to put my username in place of whoever. Also muzzling Hillary wouldn’t work because for starters she doesn’t have a proper snout. See also: Boston Terriers.

I did, on the other hand, enjoy “Obambi” and “Democratic Heart of Appalachia”, so on the Ruppert scale I give this outing a solid 8.

“Really, he could free Mumia and make him attorney general”

Jeez, just when I thought liberals couldn’t get any more stupid. I knew you guys wanted to free that scumbag cop-killer Mumia Abu Jamal, but to even joke about making that POS attorney general, is in poor taste to say the least.

That guy should have been executed 20 years ago for his most despicable of crimes, and yet the man’s a saint to you leftists.

Between Mumia and Che Guevera (another murderer), you liberals have a very interesting choice of heros. That just goes to show the kind of people liberals are at heart, terrorist supporters and criminal coodlers.

Ding dong dilly, libs! It looks like Travis Disaster has you loony lefties cornered and on the run, not only from Super Sarah, the Power Palin (as the Cool Coach keeps schoolin ya), but from the early failures of the Obummer lameministration! Looks like weak-kneed Obummer is selling out you loony lefties, so what are you going to do about it? Nothing! You’re going to wait for an awesome win from Boss Bobby and Super Sarah in 2012, that’s what!

Badoodle-boo-yeah! You just got hit with a SPREAD of TRUTH, libs! Travis Disaster and Urban out.

Obama is Total Fail because he hasn’t done anything about the fascist dictatorship that is Amerikkka. His failure to appoint Movement Progressives to key Cabinet posts shows he’s a triangulating centrist and thus a complete failure. I mean, look at how successful the Bush administration was with their Movement Conservatives!

It is so sad that the Obama administration is a failure this far into its tenure.

do you recall when Clinton tried, really tried, to govern as a liberal?

Let’s see…would that be NAFTA, “ending welfare as we know it”, or handing health care reform to a group of insurance company executives? Indeed, I’m all ears–do you have any examples of Clinton’s “trying to govern like a liberal?” Or are you just off-gassing?

Jeez, just when I thought liberals couldn’t get any more stupid.

You left off “than I”, Commanderguy…

Let’s see…would that be NAFTA, “ending welfare as we know it”, or handing health care reform to a group of insurance company executives? Indeed, I’m all ears–do you have any examples of Clinton’s “trying to govern like a liberal?” Or are you just off-gassing?

We’ll start with universal health care.

But, soft, Doc, perhaps a simple reminder of just how great…yes, great…the Clinton administration was for ALL Americans is in order.

Was he perfect? No.

Was he even close to progressive? No.

But you find me one, just one, President who did as much for the poor and working classes in this country.

Name one.

But you find me one, just one, President who did as much for the poor and working classes in this country.

FDR

Really.

Shorter Travis: Concern Troll is concerned.

Shorter Commander: There really is no such thing.

Shorter Dumpster: Hey, I can’t wedge this traffic cone all the way up my ass without some help here!

But you find me one, just one, President who did as much for the poor and working classes in this country.

Name one.

Lyndon Johnson. Franklin Roosevelt. Hell, even Ike managed to improve the lot of the working class. More union jobs were lost under Clinton than Nixon.

So Clinton sucked less than Reagan and Bush I, and had a better time of it economically than Jimmy Carter. He still sold out on environmental issues, shafted universal health care by handing it over to the same crew that made the mess in the first place (hmmm…adumbrations of economic advisors there), abetted the repeal of Glass-Steagll, stoked up the Drug War (you can now be put to death for growing too much pot, actor)…shall I go on?

Dude stop being a concern troll by citing facts and shit.

Doc, LBJ and FDR sent millions of poor kids out to face death, no matter how noble the causes.

Try again. Let’s find one who actually did more than Clinton this time.

As for the rest of your nonsense, I repeat, no one is perfect, and Clinton made the effort. For everyone of your concerns, I found at least one, and likely more, rebuttals.

Life and governance are zero sum games, sadly.

It may be instructive to point out that an analysis of Clinton’s and Obama’s policy positions during the primaries showed very little difference.

In other words, if you were expecting something other than a centrist the problem is not with Obama.

And I have to agree with mikey: if things start going pear-shaped in some aspect of the Obama administration, he will a) notice and b) move to correct it.

WIN

Okay, so, the presidents who did more than Clinton for the poor and working classes were…

1) FDR, widely considered the second greatest president in the history of the United States
and
2) LBJ, who created the biggest bureaucratic leviathan* in the history of the United States to combat poverty

Attention, Radiohead fans: OK Computer ain’t no 9th Symphony, you chumps.

More union jobs were lost under Clinton than Nixon.

Sign of the times more than anything else, I’m afraid. Unions didn’t lose power in America just because of the preznit.

And yeah, actor’s right about LBJ. My father grew up dirt poor in South Carolina. Attempted to put himself through school until the money ran out. Great Society didn’t keep his poor self from getting drafted.

* I don’t necessarily use this as a bad thing.

Yaaahh. This thread has been trick-trolled. Bye.

LBJ and FDR sent millions of poor kids out to face death, no matter how noble the causes.

Whereas Clinton just kept on bombing Iraq and enforcing the “no-fly zone” and the embargoes that even Madeline Albright admitted were killing Iraqis in the thousands. While ignoring the slaughter in Rwanda. And siding with the Kosovars, resulting tin the installation of a criminal government, rather than simply holding back the Serbs.

Face it: he governed to the right of Nixon, and did a lot of damage.

Face it: he governed to the right of Nixon

I personally think Liars’ Drum’s Not Dead is the best album of the 00s. No one I know or will ever know will agree with me on this point.

It is what it is, of course. So whenever I’m discussing how much I adore said album, I usually don’t start off my argument with Face it, because I’m never going to cross that gulch and get anyone to face anything.

Taste differs from demonstrable facts. Let’s talk about…oh, say, regulating financial institutions, or protecting the environment, or American Indians, or support for union-busting “free-trade” laws.

It ain’t music criticism. It has real consequences for real people.

Your rocketcycle isn’t reaching the other cliff, Doc.

Additionally, who did you vote for in 2000?

In b4 Nader shitstorm.

Just a simple question.

The one who didn’t repeal Glass-Steagall or sell out everything that wasn’t nailed down to corporate interests. How ’bout you?

The one who didn’t repeal Glass-Steagall or sell out everything that wasn’t nailed down to corporate interests.

And who was that, exactly?

The one who didn’t enable police sweeps and misconduct by pushing the Effective Dealth Penalty and Anti Terrorism Act. The one who didn’t leave my patients worse off than Reagan did by abolishing AFDC and repalcing it with the far more punitive TANF. The one who didn’t whip my patioents’ parents jobs abroad via NAFTA.

But hey, I realize that you’re a fairly well-off kid who’s at no risk of deprivation or arrest, and so none of this matters to you. You can live nicely in your corporate bubble, secure in the knowledge that the Democrats won’t upset your parents’ apple cart. So it really doesn’t matter to you any more than the realtive virtues of the Liars or Radiohead.

Just say it. You voted for Nader. You were proud then, you should be proud now. And if you aren’t, say it.

Just say it. Say you voted for Nader. C’mon.

And additionally,

But hey, I realize that you’re a fairly well-off kid who’s at no risk of deprivation or arrest, and so none of this matters to you. You can live nicely in your corporate bubble, secure in the knowledge that the Democrats won’t upset your parents’ apple cart.

Sadly, No!

I sure did. In Blue California. And I voted a straight Green ticket, and I registered more Democrats than you have.

You can continue to fellate the Dems by making sure that they get every vote EVAR, but many of us can pretty clearly see that a) once you get the state’s electoral votes sewn up, further votes for the Democrat are irrelevant, and b) Dems have to be forced to do the right thing, and making it clear to them that third-party alternatives can cost them seats they tend to pay some attnetion to non-corporate voices.

But hey, you already knew that, right? You’re not just bringing up irrelevancies because you actually realize that Clinton helped push the polity to the right, right?

Very good. Clinton governed to the right of Nixon. Terrible, this. I mean, all you ever did was vote to the right of Nixon.

I suppose you find wit and wisdom in Nader’s ridiculous post-election Obama comments? I’m still shocked they haven’t found room for him over at ClownHall.

Anyhoo, you’re exactly as I expected. Well done. Toodles.

In after Naderbaiting.

Oh, hooray, another Nader thread!

It had to be done.

Ah, but what do you expect from young Nation? He’s the guy who argued so eloquently that the Fairness Doctrine was going to force broadcasters to put forth only government-apporved programming. He’s…not the brightest candle on the birthday cake.

Don’t mind these giant sacks of mon…laundry I’ve got here. McCain wanted me to do his laundry. Yes. That’s it. Good boy. Go to sleep.

And Nader’s…to the right? The Greens are to the right?

Like I said, not real bright…

Oh I get it, Nader’s to the right because he caused Gore to lose. Except for the part where he didn’t, really.

Ahhm, no. Bit of a misinterpretation about my Fairness Doctrine misgivings.

Misgivings, I might add, that are completely dwarfed by the laughter I have at those who use the FD as a boogity-boogity rallying cry. Why were were even talking about that, way back when?

And Nader’s…to the right? The Greens are to the right?

Nader, yes. Greens, no. How can that be? The Greens couldn’t have possibly been used/abused by the Nader, could they?

Oh I get it, Nader’s to the right because he caused Gore to lose.

Annnnd…whiff. Has nothing to do with Gore. Everything to do with Bush, Cheney, Kristol, McCain, Iraq.

Just wait until your precious black J*sus brings in U.N. troops to convert you to Islamb at the point of a gun, institutes a Muslin caliphate with Shanai Law, then you’ll wonder what possessed you to vote for a DEMONcrap who was born in Indonesia/Nigeria and wants to take away our 2nd Amended Rites.

Moar snark plz.

Friendly fire make kitty cry.

kthxbai

And Nader has…what exactly to do with Clinton’s administration or Obama’s incoming one?

Well, this is where it ends. 8 years later, the Green Party is a laughingstock nationally (why they continue this pattern is beyond me), Nader is known for the post ’98 (or so) version thereof far more than the Corvair Guy, and the Nader trolls are left with their feeding frenzy only on display on threads in S,N!’s basement. Heck, you were even doing better than this in the summer, when Obama was to sell us all out and billions would jump to the Good Ship Green and Nader really didn’t say and do all those things in 2000- we swear!- and you could at least get your troll on in threads that were at the top of the page.

These days? It is to pity.

I leave you all in the comfort of your own discomfort, frothing and seething that the only legacy you’ll leave is at best a smirky historical footnote and at worst teaming with W.

Scoreboard.

Everything to do with Bush, Cheney, Kristol, McCain, Iraq.

So, let me see if I’ve got this straight…Nader was consciously and deliberately working with these guys (and getting paid!) to bring about Bush II’s election.

Wow. An 11/00 Truth Movement. I’m impressed. That’s some pretty…interesting reasoning there. Teaming with W. Yeah, and the Freemasons, too.

So all of this has what to do with Clinton’s administration (or Obama’s) again?

Man, who knew contempt for Dirty Fucking Commie Hippies ran so deep?

Dear Mr. Disaster: who twisted your nickers? I can’t tell whether you thought Obama was a progressive and are feeling fooled, in which case you weren’t paying attention and should stfu; or you knew he wasn’t progressive, and are just whining. If the latter, god it’s dull. And yes, the good thing Obama’s done is not be McCain, and it’s the best thing you’ll get out of the deal, and it’s no small potatoes if you care about the country.

And yet progressives are called upon to Work Together For The Common Good to elect the candidate; with the candidate safely elected, progressives are told to Shut The Fuck Up and Get Out Of Our Way as the same cast of centrists and corporate interests replay the same stupid decisions that got us here in the first place.

That’s not the common good, sport.

And yes, the good thing Obama’s done is not be McCain, and it’s the best thing you’ll get out of the deal, and it’s no small potatoes if you care about the country.

Next he’ll ask for more gruel.

You aren’t a progressive.

Well, that’s informative.

“…with the candidate safely elected, progressives are told to Shut The Fuck Up and Get Out Of Our Way as the same cast of centrists and corporate interests replay the same stupid decisions that got us here in the first place.”

Dude, you’re more than welcome to organize and put pressure on the new administration to move toward your ends. Knock your bad self out.

Just, please, quit with the fucking whining. As has been pointed out, if you didn’t know Obama was a centrist from the get-go you weren’t paying attention so quit fucking pretending that you were promised flying unicorns and saying you’ll stamp your little foot and hold your breath until you get one.

Don’t get mad; get organized.

And yet progressives are called upon to Work Together For The Common Good to elect the candidate; with the candidate safely elected, progressives are told to Shut The Fuck Up and Get Out Of Our Way as the same cast of centrists and corporate interests replay the same stupid decisions that got us here in the first place.

Did you sleep through the Bush years or something? What got us here is amoral, venal, criminal, cronyistic, uninvolved, uncurious, stupid, greedy evil. What’s coming is a competent, smart, articulate, pragmatic, centrist Democrat. christ on a popsicle stick, there hasn’t been an actual progressive at the national level since I was a young dfh. Wanna move the O man to the left–get some progressives in the house and senate to shift the discussion. In the meantime, rejoice in the return of sanity, and hope he can clean up the shambles left by the fucking republicans. And you don’t have to shut up, just quit fucking whining. Unless, of course, you really can’t tell the difference between the outgoing and incoming admins, in which case stfu.

You liberals are either completely ignorant, or somewhere to the left of Karl Marx if you don’t think Obama is a leftist/progressive.

Out of curiosity, could one of you liberals please explain to me a.) why Obama is not a leftist/progressive, and b.) what exactly in your opinion(s) makes one a leftist/progressive?

Thank you.

Don’t get mad; get organized.

Working on that, have no fear. We’re putting beaucoups pressure on Pelosi from the SF end. I’m not sure what you’re characterizing as “whining”; I merely pointed out that there’s a very real danger that Obama’s setting up Clinton II, and that that isn’t a good thing. Rest assured that we’re organizing to push him as hard as possible.

Having said that, one does tire of centrists counting on progressives to GOTV time and again. Maybe the corporate wing should form it’s own party–they could call themselves the “New Republicans” or something equally catchy.

Another question out of curiosity. Do you liberals consider Nancy Pelosi to be a leftist/progressive? And if no, why not?

Having said that, one does tire of centrists counting on progressives to GOTV time and again. Maybe the corporate wing should form it’s own party–they could call themselves the “New Republicans” or something equally catchy.

Well, duh. Unless you’re a self serving political whore who decades ago stood for something, you go to the vote with the best choice you have, not the choice you wish you had. Wish for a complete repub implosion to the pure 28%ers, a consolidation a little left of (the U.S.) center (generic right wing in the civilized world) and a split of the blue states to a sorta leftist party; I don’t know how else we get there.

Or maybe the ultra-pure progressives could organize their own party. They could call it, oh I don’t know, the Green party maybe? I’m sure it’d be a huge success!

The other option, of course, is to accept that you aren’t going to get everything you want the way things are set up here in the US of A and prioritize. Oh and “one does tire of centrists counting on progressives to GOTV time and again” sounds a lot like whining to me.

But hey, you’ve already nailed me as a Corporatist CEO-blowing whore so what do I know?

You liberals are either completely ignorant, or somewhere to the left of Karl Marx if you don’t think Obama is a leftist/progressive.

I’m pretty sure they found that out when Ron Paul wasn’t nominated to be Sec. of the Treasury.

So: Obama’s a big let-down with those cabinet picks, huh? Maybe he can get an intern called Lewinsky and the Golden Age will be back.

Just be sure to wipe your chin.

and for chrissakes, wash the dress.

No answer yet huh? Is it maybe because you don’t know what you’re talking about?

I’ll ask you again, could one of you liberals please explain to me a.) why Obama isn’t a leftist/progressive, and b.) what exactly in your opinion makes one a leftist/progressive?

Come on, it shouldn’t be that hard for you. You say Obama’s not a leftist, so surely you can explain to me why he isn’t?

Hey Scotty Dog? Crusader Boy?

You can STFU.

That is change we can believe in.

Just to take the bait:

Leftists tend to be fans of common ownership of the means of production. Obama is quite content to work with large corporations, to take their money, and to assist them legislatively. (Look to his economic advisors–Lawrence Summers is a neoliberal–pretty much the antithesis of a leftist).

Now, does that answer your question, or were you really seeking an answer?

Troofie? You too.

All the real progressives are holding out for an appointment to the Department of Kill Whitey, natch.

Thank you DocAmazing, at least one of you liberals has the courage to answer an honest question.

MUMBAI – Ajmal Amir Kasab, the sole surviving member of the 10-man team of Pakistani gunmen that left hundreds dead or wounded after a bloody three day rampage in Mumbai, today blamed the mayhem on an “email mixup” that left him and his colleagues unaware that Barack Obama had won election as President of the United States.

“What? Oh bloody hell, now you tell me,” said Kasab, as he was led away in handcuffs by Indian security forces.

Kasab, 21, apologized to Indian President Pratibha Patil, explaining that no one in his group had known about the recent U.S. election results.

“Boy, talk about having egg on the face,” said a visibly embarrassed Kasab. “If we knew Bush was on his way out, obviously we would have called off the crazy random baby-shootings and martyrdom stuff, and signed on with the Peace Corps or Habitat for Humanity. At this point I guess all I can say is ‘my bad.'”

“Seriously, I can’t even begin to tell you how shitty the whole situation makes me feel,” he added dejectedly. “Don’t get me wrong, I’m as thrilled as everybody else to find out Barack won the election, but this moment is always going to be bittersweet knowing that all those shootings were tragically unnecessary. Not to mention the six weeks I wasted in training camp.”

Ha ha, that Iowahawk is something else, eh?

But at least if he fails, he’ll fail eloquently. That counts for something.

Only in the fevered imagination of an Obama cultist.

Hey Truth, so did you pay your child support this month?

Only in the fevered imagination of an Obama cultist.

Might wanna see a doc about that, champ.

There is an element of Overton Window fatigue at work here, I think. For a lot of people, the Republican Point-Eight-Decade Shitstorm has made anything to the left of Cheney look positively scrumptious. Even Bill Clinton, who apparently was Evil (according to the local sample of “true progressives,” at least), looks good by comparison to Reagan, Bush, Bush Jr., McCain and their various handlers and puppeteers.

Here’s the thing. When people voted for Obama because they wanted “change,” I’m pretty sure most of them were voting for a change from the past 8 years of BushCo crony-driven hackery. Maybe a fair percentage wanted the Constitution to be returned to its rightful place at the top of the heap, law-of-the-land-wise; and perhaps a roll-back of the Imperial Presidency. I’m pretty sure that the number of people voting for “change” who were thinking “Hey, this could be the big shift to the progressive socialist utopia I’ve been waiting for all my life” was pretty damn small.

So Obama is picking people to work with who may hold views that not everybody who voted for him agrees with. Gosh. But I’d bet dollars to donuts that if he made even one leftist-progressive-approved appointment, three things would happen: (1) the Right would explode in paroxysms of Cheetos-fueled rage; (2) the Center (from the center-right to the center-left) — which I believe is the majority of the electorate — would begin to be concerned about how long the centrist leadership they had hoped for would actually last; and (3) the TrueLeft&trade would complain that it was a token appointment and/or otherwise inadequate.

Look, the righty wingnuts think Obama is a Communist; the “true progressives” think he’s a corporatist stooge. To me, that suggests that he’s pretty much in the middle, which is where I think the majority of the country wants him to be. The Overton Window didn’t shift overnight; let’s not expect it to shift back overnight. Work for the change you want, sure, but don’t hobble the man before he’s even out of the gate. The good news is, I’m pretty sure if you dissent from the next President’s policies, you won’t be branded a traitor and have his supporters calling for you to be shipped off to Gitmo.

Confidential to The Truth: Didn’t you already break one promise to leave and not come back? I don’t believe you.

Come on guys, we’re toward the end of eight years so bad many of us were fondly remembering a time when our president was a pro-business centrist who screwed over the world’s workers and poor but at least the government worked and things weren’t totally shit. Plus the Republican party is all messed up like a rat king where the rats hate each other and it’s going to be increasingly irrelevant, so there will be more room for the Democratic party to move away from the right.

What Dan said.

Confidential to The Truth: Didn’t you already break one promise to leave and not come back? I don’t believe you.

I’m not “The Truth”, you poor deluded fool.

Hey Truth, so did you pay your child support this month?

I have never been married and I don’t have kids, you poor deluded fool.

BTW, Here’s the wingnut version of what Brad said:

“But at least if Palin fails, she’ll look hot doing it. That counts for something.”

See how goofy that sounds?

See how goofy that sounds?

Well, not nearly as goofy as those who insist I’m someone I’m not. But you’re liberals, so par for the course.

wow, the trolls are circling this thread likes flies to shit.

Which is, of course, appropriate.

wow, the trolls are circling this thread likes flies to shit.

Which is, of course, appropriate.

So in your analogy “trolls=flies” and “S,N! threads=shit.”

S,N! threads=shit.

By golly, you’re right: it IS appropriate!!

Your words, not mine.

Hey look, it’s thoroughly discredited booger!

Wow goober, I guess you win.

Well played, sir, well played.

I think that after such a stunning victory, it would be anticlimactic, not to mention beneath your dignity, to stick around any longer. Perhaps there’s another blog you could challenge, somewhere else in the internet.

“S,N! threads=shit.”

thread != threads.

This thread? Shit. Full of it. Which tends to explain why you and your pals / alter-egos are circling so eagerly.

I’m with Doctorb. Please go assert your superiority elsewhere, perhaps on a freeway.

I too think Dan Someone has got pretty much the right take, however it’s a blog comment thread and bitching about Obama’s choices is not worth having a fit over: it’s allowed. (My own feeling is that Obama’s a hands-on guy and his cabinet is going to be responsible for enacting his policies regardless of their own views. What matters is that they’re professional and can complete their assignments.) If this was a sports site we’d bitch about draft picks; here we can bitch about cabinet picks and why not?

I just want RB’s name generator.

I’m happy to let anyone have those files, y’know. Download JanusNode and send me an e-mail.

So is goober admitting to impersonating Troofie?

I have never been married and I don’t have kids, you poor deluded fool.

Well, to steal a phrase I saw here a few weeks ago, quelle fucking surprise.

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The Malfunctioning Alpha Omega Glenn Reynolds Robot said,

December 3, 2008 at 3:30

Jesus, D.N., aren’t you usually a little more passive-aggressive subtle than that?

Douche.

Shorter DN Nation:

Because Nader, that’s why!

Mmmm, yummy Bush! Me likey! NO we don’t likes it. But we does! Yes we do. Nader is good! Good, progressive Nader! Just as long as yummy Bush! Mmmm, yummy Bush! Me likey! NO we don’t likes it. But we does! Yes we do. Nader is good! Good, progressive Nader! Just as long as yummy Bush! Mmmm, yummy Bush! Me likey! NO we don’t likes it. But we does! Yes we do. Nader is good! Good, progressive Nader! Just as long as yummy Bush! Mmmm, yummy Bush! Me likey! NO we don’t likes it. But we does! Yes we do. Nader is good! Good, progressive Nader! Just as long as yummy Bush! Mmmm, yummy Bush! Me likey! NO we don’t likes it. But we does! Yes we do. Nader is good! Good, progressive Nader! Just as long as yummy Bush! Mmmm, yummy Bush! Me likey! NO we don’t likes it. But we does! Yes we do. Nader is good! Good, progressive Nader! Just as long as yummy Bush! Mmmm, yummy Bush! Me likey! NO we don’t likes it. But we does! Yes we do. Nader is good! Good, progressive Nader! Just as long as yummy Bush! Mmmm, yummy Bush! Me likey! NO we don’t likes it. But we does! Yes we do. Nader is good! Good, progressive Nader! Just as long as yummy Bush! Mmmm, yummy Bush! Me likey! NO we don’t likes it. But we does! Yes we do. Nader is good! Good, progressive Nader! Just as long as yummy Bush! Mmmm, yummy Bush! Me likey! NO we don’t likes it. But we does! Yes we do. Nader is good! Good, progressive Nader! Just as long as yummy Bush!Mmmm, yummy Bush! Me likey! NO we don’t likes it. But we does! Yes we do. Nader is good! Good, progressive Nader! Just as long as yummy Bush!

We get it.

Now go away.

It’s a dead thread. Its doors should be open for anyone.

Un! Deux! Trois! Dis: Miroir Noir!
Black Mirror!
Un! Deux! Trois! Dis: Miroir Noir!
Black Mirror!

Wow, DN, your really are looking smarter by the minute.

yo’ fool, now thet yo’ knows yer ind is near yo’ allus fought fo’ whut yo’ desuhe, whut yo’ fear

No, the REALLY good thing about Obama is that he didn’t spend his 20s & 30s burning neurons by the billion with constant huge doses of cocaine & whiskey like a certain lame-duck did – the speaking in actual sentences thing is just a fringe-benefit. Asshat POTUS bad, sentient POTUS good.

The odds of another lethal farce like Katrina just went WAY down.

Whoa … more pro- & anti-Nader feudin’ a-goin’ on – in 2008?!

Dude wasn’t even all that relevant in 2000, guys.
Get over it – or get a room.

Oh, & Obama may well have a relatively easy time of it instituting free health-care for kids … after which the savings for their parents & overall rise in the level of US children’s well-being will make extending it to all citizens the next logical move, one the GOP would look like retarded sadists opposing (as if they don’t already). America can’t really afford NOT to go universal at this point – it gets the same benefits delivered faster & cheaper.

Bon voyage, Herr Trout.

Mr. Disaster: the guy who so far has accomplished the following:

Not John McCain

What we elected him for, dude.

I see a lot of expectation lowering around Obama.

You know Truth, delusions are generally considered to be pathological.

Still waiting to hear about that child support, Troof. We’d all looove to hear about how dem wimmin are keeping good men like you down.

Simba, that’s what this whole thread is about. “Um, Obama is, uh, at least, uh, pretty, um, articulate.”

Says the Bush supporter. Fool me once…

Meanwhile you all realize that none of his campaign promises are really going to come to fruition.

Says the guy who spouted endlessly how McCain would win.

Yes, I am laughing at you. Thanks for Teh Fail!

Twoof—

Child support
Child support
Child support

I want to hear you tell us you’re not a groupie of that pathetic deadbeat dad men’s rights blogger, Glenn Sacks.

DN, it hurts, doesn’t it? It’s Brad who latched on to, uh, the, um, articulate thing.

Obama peppers his words with “um” when he’s not reading from a speech.

Wow. I’m ever so upset. Churchill spoke with a lisp, FWIW.

And weren’t you liberals nattering on about Diebold, election fraud, etc – funny how that goes away when you win, isn’t it?

Um, hilarious?

Anyway, it’s nice to see a thread where the expectations for Obama around actually, you know, fulfilling his campaign promises and policies, are dramatically lowered. It is damn funny, DN, and I am enjoying your consternation.

HTH. Additionally, scoreboard.

I’m curious…are you ever- ever!- going to admit how ridiculously incorrect you were about the election? You’ve dropped a couple of oh well, guess it wuddn’t in the cards, but so far haven’t admitted how much fail you brought to this place over the past few months.

And, specifically: Your bloated analysis of The Bradley Effect(TM), saying that McCain would sweep the toss-ups (he got Missouri and, um, well…), saying that Obama would be screwed in the Rust Belt/north Midwest, saying that Michelle Obama and Bill Ayers and Jeremiah Wright and whatever Evil Person of the Week would be the final nail in Obama’s coffin, saying how you delighted in how worried we were about Obama’s impending doom, etc., etc. etmfc.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, a million times wrong.

It is adorable- positively adorable- that you’re still claiming victory because Obama will likely be more centrist than…now see what I’m doing here…than people like you said he would be. See that? We never thought Obama was radical. We never really he thought he was much of a lefty. But he was sane, and he was reasonable, and that was enough. Go back through the archives; it’s all there. You were the one who painted him as a radical Muslimarxist. You, dude. You. Not us.

So if you want to claim victory because- hilariously- you were wrong, then go ahead. I have no idea how you expect anyone to take you seriously (not that we ever have), but there it is. Keep on spinning. I’m sure you’re getting a leg up on 2012.

D.N., please, no more comments on what trout’s leg may be up on.

……….

………

Still waiting, Truth.

After Bush:

A grammatical sentence: golden
What two? bonus!
A complete coherent and meaninful paragraph: Priceless
What more? I’m going to die ….

Yeah, the only thing that scares me about Obama is that bailout plan… I mean, where do you think he’s getting the money?
The answer is simple:
From US, of course!
Taxpayers are going to have a fun time when taxes are raised to pay for more than just the original bailout plan, but if you don’t make enough money, don’t worry… other tax payers will give Obama the money to bail YOU out, too.

Other than that, I DO happen to think he’s a VERY good motivational speaker and I hope his presidency goes well despite my fears. 🙂

Oh, right…. and D.N. Nation or whatever, it just so happens that many of Obama’s plans are INCREDIBLY Marxist. (I don’t care about his religion.) I’m not say that a few socialist ideas is a bad thing because we need a good balance between socialism and free-market capitalism, I just hope he doesn’t go overboard with it.

As into Obama as you seem to be, I don’t think that even YOU can handle living in a socialist nation, so back off of others’ opinions. (Not that I think you’re completely wrong.)

And in case you don’t understand what I’m talking about here’s a definition of socialism: (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

And now of communism: a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.

Yeah… kind of like overtaxing productive people who (Most, but not ALL of the time) have worked hard for the money that they are earning. And then, they give the profits (“Excess money” as Obama calls it) to the poor people who (Once again, not EVERYBODY) don’t work or don’t get an education, or spend their money in the wrong places.

Correct me if you think I’m wrong, but it won’t matter because I came across this site by happenstance anyway.

Correct me if you think I’m wrong

Stupid and wrong.