Shorter Michael* Mukasey
Posted on August 12th, 2008 by Brad
- Christ, do I look like I really have the time to prosecute every person in my own department who broke some stupid law? What do I look like, the US Attorney General or something?
‘Shorter’ concept created by Daniel Davies and perfected by Elton Beard. We are aware of all Internet traditions.™
*Why do I keep thinking his name is Robert??? What, am I going full retar… er, actually, nevermind, don’t want to start up that controversy again…
UPDATE: Some people in the comments are accusing me of wanting to use legally shady methods to satisfy my quest for bloody-minded revenge on the Republican Party. To those people making this scurrilous charge, I say…
…
OK, you got me. It is all about revenge.
Yeah, I mean, if they jail EVERY single Bush administration felon, that would mean releasing tens of thousands of pot smokers from jail to make room for them all!
Michael Mukasey went to the Bureau of Vital Statistics.
Dear Senator Obama:
Please come out this afternoon and blast the fuck outa the AG. In the process could you please explain that under a 3d Bush term this is exactly what we will have for the next 4 years at least.
“Where there is enough evidence to charge someone with a crime, we vigorously prosecute,” he said. “But not every wrong, or even every violation of the law, is a crime,” he said.
(Does double-take, slaps self on forehead, falls down, conks out.)
who knew mukasey is a democrat?
I’m shocked, shocked! I tell you, to find that the Bush Administration will once again refuse to investigate its own law-breaking.
I’m shocked… shocked, I tells ya… that yet another Bush appointee would let crime committing Bush lackeys go scot free.
BTW, it’s Michael Mukasey, not Robert.
Heh heh.
I’d like to thank all those Democratic senators who voted to confirm this criminal piece of shit as AG. In particular, I’m looking at you, Shumer–you knew better, and yet you helped get this asshole into office.
Feh!
Wow, I think I must’ve read ItTDGY’s mind.
Gee, y’know, I can’t ever remember a DA saying “know what mikey? Sure, we’ve got you dead to rights on assault, disorderly, under the influence and destruction of property, but we’re not gonna prosecute you. Nah, just go back to what you were doing. Is this piece of rebar yours? Sorry, here you go”….
mikey
His name is Michael Mukasey, as in “Capo of the Mukasey Crime Family”.
OK, Blue Buddha, what am I thinking about Joe Klein at this time?
I thought it was the stinking left-leaning fascist-liberal DFHs who were the moral relativists.
You know, I’m sick of this government corruption. I think we should do something about it- and that something is get rid of the awful, awful politics and meanness of the left, mostly Obama, and certainly not McCain, who is certainly the solution to the problems we face.
Yep, another good point by Da Dean! I’m on a roll, and also awesome.
Even shorter Mukasey: “Impeachment is still off the tabel, right?”
It’s true that ‘Robert’ focus-groups unusually well as a preferred name for an AG. ‘Michael’ is regarded as a little too likely to be tolerant of religious-right extremism, torture and heavy-handed vote-rigging.
You gotta admit, it’s fucking brilliant.
His quote should be on that pig’s gravestone (when he dies in prison a long time from now): “not every wrong, or even every violation of the law, is a crime.”
That disgusting fuck.
I see Mr. Wonderful had the same reaction to the same quote I had.
It’s unfuckingbelievable. We put people in jail for selling pot to terminal cancer patients and this screw, this utter piece of shit, who is the chief law enforcement officer of the Department of Justice, says, well, his department is above a stupid little thing like the law.
I hate these fuckers.
And to the national media who cover this stuff: Fuck you for not holding these fuckers’ feet to the flame, and fuck you for pretending this is all just fine and dandy.
And the zero accountability administration rolls on.
Indeed.
Seriously, the absolute most corrupt administration in American history, and the media shrugs it off. But Obama doesn’t bowl a 300 game, and it’s a scandal. Fuck you, media. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you.
OK, I don’t know what the inspector general’s report actually found, but I have to think that it would be no better to bring criminal charges and have them thrown out because there was no criminal violation than it is not to bring them in the first place. I wish Mukasey would be more transparent about what exactly *has* been done to the wrongdoers.
I guess some ‘obstruction of Justice’ charges should be the first order of business of the next AG. Fucker is on tape in front of Congress breaking the law and it would be the perfect aperitif to the war crimes trials.
I also think we should get the ball rolling now on impeaching all of the Bush’s judicial appointees. On the other hand, Obama should just declare them a threat to national security and have them detained. He would CinC and it is a time of War so its not like he needs pay attention to any laws.
Hope at least that Shumer got a nice dinner out of it and Mukasey brought enough ky.
You’re probably confusing him with Robert Mugabe. It’s the glasses.
Awesome. Thank you, Chuck Shumer, you piece of shit.
Dan Someone said,
August 12, 2008 at 19:42
OK, I don’t know what the inspector general’s report actually found, but….
Because the Bush administration has given us ample cause to assume the best, Dan?
To Dan’s point — yes, the pig might be technically right — not every violation of the law is a “crime” in the legal sense, but it’s still a violation of the law. For an AG to allow these tap dancing, idiotic-on-their-face, arguments to be the BASIS OF HIS DEFENSE is inexcusable.
Shit, even a couple of Nixon’s AG’s had some integrity (until he got to Bork) and resigned. But these feeble cocksuckers are nothing but gimps for this historically awful administration.
He should rot in jail for obstruction.
You gotta admit, it’s fucking brilliant.
What, am I going full retar…
Clearly you need retaraining.
“not every violation of the law is a crime” is a correct statement of the law but in this context it is a lie. The alleged conduct of Monica Goodling and Co. are violations of the criminal law. THAT makes them crimes. This is just more bullshit evasion.
This is the state of discourse in our nation. A Democrat attends church where the preacher makes somewhat controversial statements (which BTW were only controversial if you refuse to believe that there is still prevalent racism in the USA), and that is worthy of hours and hours of coverage. On the other hand, it seems like at least once a month evidence of criminal behavior by this Administration is revealed and it’s treated as no big deal.* You know, I really do believe the USA is beyond redemption.
* This is a particularly active month for revelations of criminal behavior – This case, the allegations in Maher’s The Dark Side and Suskind’s allegations equal a trifecta.
well hell. If he pursued and prosecuted every crime in the Buish adminstration he would not have time for anything else. Then who would see to the vital business of voter suppression and political prosecutions?
“not every violation of the law is a crime” Can we add that to the Miranda warning?
But what about Michelle Obama? Reverend Wright? Bill Ayers?
And Barack Obama went to Hawaii for a vacation! HAWAII! That’s so elitist! He should have gone to Branson, Mo., like a real American.
And John Edwards had an affair and he was practically the Democratic candidate!
Liberals. Hmf.
Vote McCain!
The “Thunder in the Tropics” controversy is retarded.
There, I said it.
I’m guessing the real victim here is Murkasey, no?
Crime, schmime – lookit my new set of flatware!
Calm down, Mukasey’s statement is completely accurate and unobjectionable. I am as liberal as anyone and my hatred for the corrupt, torturing, war criminal, profiteering administration burns as deep as yours, but many, many, many laws are NOT criminal laws. Breaking such non-criminal laws is a civil infraction, subjecting the law-breaker to a civil fine or other punishment, depending on the particular law. The laws governing civil service hiring are exactly that — violating them exposes the law-breaker to firing from the Government. Unfortunately, Goodling & Sampson left the DOJ already.
Mukasey is certainly a corrupt idiot — his interview with PBS earlier this year disclaiming any interest in prosecuting torturers and/or torture-enablers was disgraceful — but this statement is not some giant outrage. Any lawyer could tell you that.
This episode teaches us that perhaps we *should* create laws to criminalize this activity, but we do not have such laws. So Goodling & Sampson violated the law, certainly. But they did not violate a criminal law.
Here is another example: think about antitrust laws. Some antitrust violations are criminal, exposing the law-breakers to jail time (price-fixing, bid-rigging). Others, such as monopolizing, need not be (is Bill Gates in jail?) The DOJ did win its case with MS until the Bush administration settled it during the appeal in early 2001. Likewise, the FTC is opposing the Whole Foods-Wild Oats merger on the grounds that the combination would run afoul of the antitrust laws, but no executives will be jailed for proposing the merger.
This picture of Mukasey makes him look like “The Incredible Mr. Limpet”
Which is an “et” too long….
Breaking such non-criminal laws is a civil infraction, subjecting the law-breaker to a civil fine or other punishment, depending on the particular law. The laws governing civil service hiring are exactly that — violating them exposes the law-breaker to firing from the Government. Unfortunately, Goodling & Sampson left the DOJ already.
So a few bad apples working in bad faith, completely independent of government or influence, nothing to see here. Hell, the AG himself said a little violations of the law here and there in the Department of Justice hardly add up to any problems at all — and if they were problems, they’ve been dealt with. And yes, while all of the violations of the law — whatever trifles they may have been in the upper levels of the Justice Department — have been ‘addressed’, all of the beneficiaries of said violations shouldn’t be considered suspect or even removed because it wouldn’t be fair to the hacks. Meanwhile, we’ll torpedo any real investigation and lie about the issues involved. We understand the law. And it’s utterly within our rights to excuse violations of it because we say.
J, you’re wrong. It’s utterly and extremely objectionable.
Jay B. — you miss the point. Goodling & Sampson did not violate any criminal laws. They certainly violated the laws pertaining to civil service hiring; those laws do *not* carry criminal penalties. The laws that MG & KS broke carry the penalty of being fired from government service; Goodling & Sampson no longer work for the government. What do you want Mukasey to do?
Should we criminalize what Goodling & Sampson did? Yes, I certainly think we should. But the fact is we just cannot prosecute them criminally, as they broke no criminal laws. Even passing a criminal law now wouldn’t help; the Constitution’s prohibition on *ex post facto* laws prevents that.
So, so, so many reasons exist to criticize Mukasey and the corrupt Bush DOJ, but his statement that MG & KS won’t be criminally prosecuted just is *not* one of them. This post & its outrage are embarrassing to anyone who has any understanding of how the legal system works.
J, no criminals have been prosecuted. Monica Goodling and her buddies are sitting back laaaaaughing about the whole thing. They got away with serious criminal activity, and they know they’ll never face any penalties whatsoever.
Mukasey’s statement could be shortered down easy: “Sure, people committed crimes, but I wasn’t hired to prosecute Republicans.”
Corruption isn’t a crime that you can be prosecuted for? I know the GOP has fucked stuff up, but I don’t quite think they’ve got around to rewriting those laws yet…
Seriously, direct me to a provision in the US Code that *criminalizes* the highly objectionable and illegal conduct that Goodling and Sampson did.
Not every illegal act is a crime — it’s illegal to jaywalk or speed, but you pay tickets for those infractions. Likewise, not all antitrust violations send executives to jail; sometimes the companies pay fines. Title VII makes it illegal to hire/fire individuals on the basis of race or gender, but companies that discriminate on such basis don’t have members go to jail; they pay damages. The Family & Medical Leave Act requires employers to grant employees various health-related leave time; employers who violate it pay fines, they don’t go to jail. Etc, etc, etc
Also: Imagine for a second that a Democrat said, oh, I don’t know, “no controlling legal authority” and imagine the apes on the right banging about after he said it. It was, as you might say “unobjectionable from a legal standpoint” and that would have precisely ZERO impact to the fact that it’s a tin-eared idiotic thing to say from an ACTUAL standpoint.
As I’ve said and you wrote, this may be in fact legal in the technical definition, but arguing in the technical definition has crippled Democrats for decades. No one gives a shit.
The AG swept an immense amount of bullshit under the rug and has never accounted for any of it. There’s no accountability and no investigation of what seems to be even worse that the tepid thing he’s copped to.
So, at long last, who gives a fuck about the ‘law’? If the Democrats didn’t argue with this foolish notion of propriety, they could beat the tar out of the out of control Justice Department so when they get in the White House they can get rid of the Bush landmines his cronies appointed.
Frame the argument.
Scott — where is free-floating “corruption” criminalized in the US Code? What they did is heinous & wrong & illegal, but it’s not a criminal offense. Just as it would be heinous and wrong and illegal for Wal-Mart to put up a sign saying “Blacks Need Not Apply,” no store owner or executive would go to jail. They’d pay a big fine.
By the way — I haven’t reviewed Goodling’s testimony in detail, but if her account of events is dramatically different from evidence in the Inspector General’s Report, she really should be charged with perjury. And *that* is a crime.
“But not every wrong, or even every violation of the law, is a crime.”
Yeah, I know. I’m probably the 20th person on this thread to single out that quote.
Mukasey, pukesey. This is the highest legal officer in the land.
Read pages 12 to 14 of the OIG’s report (here: http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/special/s0807/final.pdf)
These are not criminal laws. No law they broke carried a criminal penalty. Even AG Hillary Clinton couldn’t possibly criminally prosecute these noxious goons.
J
But see, you keep talking about ‘fines’ and ‘no criminal penalties’. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about ripping the Republicans to shreds because they don’t give a shit about the law.
A functional press would see if there was more to it than a few non-entities like Monica Goodling and Kyle Sampson.
A functional administration would promise to root out the unqualified people Goodling and Sampson installed because they were the beneficiaries of an illegal act.
A functional opposition party would ram the tin-eared statements of the AG down his throat and demand that more substantive action take place. What “substantive action”? Who cares? Publicly run against the whores installed illegally in the Justice Department, tar the Republicans with hiring a hack shop that puts our rights — and our safety at risk. Talk about how the GOP would rather have apparatchiks than professionals protecting America. Talk about how the Republican AG doesn’t think it’s that big a deal that violations of the law have taken place at the highest reaches of Justice and is content to do nothing about them. These attacks have the benefit of being true
The GOP should never be allowed near power again.
One would help prevent this by showing, exactly, how they’ve abused it to truly epic ends.
Athenawise — that quote is not wrong.
It violates the law to fire an employee because he is black or because she is a woman. The employer does not go to jail, however; the employer pays $$ because the federal employment discrimination laws are not criminal laws.
I take it you are not a lawyer and have no experience with the legal system beyond television?
Jay B says: “A functional administration would promise to root out the unqualified people Goodling and Sampson installed because they were the beneficiaries of an illegal act.”
Sorry, but that would also be illegal. Two wrongs do not make a right. I’m a Democrat and I believe, strongly, in the rule of law. Just because our opponents are lawless goons does not mean we should imitate them. The hacks hired by Goodling will leave of their own accord; they will not enjoy their work when their superiors instruct them to *enforce,* rather than ignore or scale back, environmental and civil rights laws.
This post & its outrage are embarrassing to anyone who has any understanding of how the legal system works.
You have it exactly opposite. It’s people who understand how the legal system works — like the jokes at Justice — who don’t understand why this is outrageous.
I’m a Democrat and I believe, strongly, in the rule of law.
You’re also a concern troll. Sorry, not buying it.
Sorry, but that would also be illegal
No it wouldn’t. As we were told ad nauseum, they serve at the behest of the president, don’t they?
Or, if they are career civil service Republican hacks, well, they should be pointed out and mocked mercilessly. The DoJ — as is evidenced by the Siegleman case and the USA firings — has been infected and compromised. If we can’t root out hacks the only other thing that we can do is be aware of their impact.
The hacks hired by Goodling will leave of their own accord; they will not enjoy their work when their superiors instruct them to *enforce,* rather than ignore or scale back, environmental and civil rights laws.
Right. Because that’s how the world works. Unfirable civil service political appointees will be shamed into leaving their jobs.
He’s not a concern troll. He’s being honest.
I think he’s missing the bigger picture, but from a “legal standpoint” J’s right.
So what?
Jay B, show me a law in the US Code *criminalizing* what they did, and I’ll share your outrage. But they broke no criminal laws.
Simba B — this is not concern trolling. Ignorant, BS attacks & faux-outrage is for the right. This administration is responsible for so many outrages, we do not need to go around inventing outrage where none exists.
What happened at the DOJ is a disgrace; I used to work there, and the times were difficult. But it’d be illegal to root out these hacks, and the laws that Goodling & Sampson broke are not criminal laws.
We should (a) elect democrats; (b) pass laws criminalizing this conduct, so the next GOP administration may be properly punished if they attempt to load the Department with hacks.
“I think he’s missing the bigger picture, but from a “legal standpoint” J’s right.
So what?”
The “so what” is that we should be committed to the rule of law, and firing the hacks doesn’t comport with that. We cannot allow our [justified] hatred of the GOP to lead us to transforming ourselves into their equally corrupt mirror image.
Fire the hacks. It is easy. An honest performance review. I bet you that every one of em can be SHOWN to be too incompetent for the job. Then you give em the boot.
Along with anyone else that doesn’t make the grade, no matter who hired them.
By the way — I do believe that Goodling & Sampson will likely face an ethics inquiry from whatever state bar of which they are a member. Hopefully they will be disbarred and unable to practice law. A very small consolation, but it’s the best we can hope for under the law. Aside from AG H. Clinton prosecuting Goodling for perjury (if her congressional testimony deserves it, and it probably does).
Yeah, I know… but can you imagine that Bush would EVER have nominated anyone whom we denizens of Left Blogsylvania would have approved of?
No he’d keep throwing right-wing assholes at us while squawking about the “obstructionist Democrats.” And the Dems knew it.
For possible violation(s) of criminal law, see the report’s discussion of Jan Williams and her repeated inaccurate representations to the investigators.
Fire EVERYBODY with a degree from ANY Xian diploma mill: Hillsdale, Regents, Liberty, Bob Jones, Oral Roberts, any of ’em…
But J,
They were put there on purpose, for a reason. If they are career hacks, and you can’t fire them, you have to limit their effectiveness and their viability. They WON’T leave on their own because that’s the plan all along.
To get rid of them have the make first make the DoJ suspect, which it is, and make their appointments illegitimate, which they are.
This directly affects Americans — the GOP has installed incompetents in career positions and that makes America less safe and the law a weapon instead of a shield.
These are truths. If you want to respect the Rule of Law — well one has to start with the spirit of it, rather than the technical definition.
The Rule of Law has been trampled by the GOP and by this AG. Hoping that Monica Goodling gets disbarred does not address it. There literally can’t be justice until the AG addresses the damage that’s been done and takes responsibility for it. Merely accepting lawbreaking at the DoJ and furrowing a brow, isn’t and SHOULDN’T be sufficient.
That you, in your stated outrage, can’t see how to address it vis a vi his blase remark about “violations of law that aren’t crimes” (as if that is a normal thing for the AG to say about people who worked for him) is thin.
To then think that those of us who see an opportunity to take umbrage over the rampant corruption at Justice — and demand accountability, whatever form it might take — are being mean is just silly. If you want to win in politics, you have to be able to play the game.
Poor babies. No doubt they were thrown out into the snow and sleet, lost and alone. Oh how they must have suffered for all those long minutes it took for the Wingnut Welfare Welcome Wagon to arrive!
What a harsh fate for crapping all over the DoJ. They’re now in such disrepute that members of the ABA House of Delegates wouldn’t want to trade places with them.
Kyle Sampson landed a sweet lobby job so not too shabby. Monica Goodling is now Mrs. Red State. Not a plight I’d wish on my worst enemy, but considering her qualifications, she’s pretty much landed on her
backfeet as well.Schumer, Loserman and Feinstein had international constituncies to consider. Carper, Nelson, and Landrieu are Blue Dawgs. Bayh is on Obama’s short list…
How can you respect an AG whose very name, to say nothing of whose actions, cannot but remind one of “snot?”
Well sagra, looks like it’s the thread of contiguous thoughts.
You’re also a concern troll. Sorry, not buying it.
gee, I’d hate to have someone who seems to know something about the law discussing the topic.
which might be true of any of those of us in this room…but monica goodling and the others have demonstrated they LIKE the taste of Fascist shit, so will be welcome at Heritage, or AEI, or with Scaiffe, where they’ll do very very very well, eating fascist shit to their hearts’ content; and they’ll get loits of practice tongue-laving the prostates of their fascist/GOPhuque mentors…
gee, I’d hate to have someone who seems to know something about the law discussing the topic.
Oy.
It would take a lawyer not to see why this is an outrage.
I have no expertise, but I think J is probably correct.
However, I will take the position that the OUTRAGE demonstrated by this thread and it’s cousins around the intert00bz is entirely justified. The totality of the actions of this administration and DoJ under all the AGs they’ve inflicted up us bring that about. Had the DoJ otherwise acted in an honest and independent manner up to this point, this action by Mukasey might result in a few raised eyebrows, but no real outrage.
That said, I gotta agree with J’s support of the rule of law. I would be disgusted if a new administration conducted a witchhunt of the type advocated by some of the commenters here. I want to see us get back to following the rules and playing fair, not emulating the bush/cheney adminstrations worst tactics.
The new leadership in the government agencies will have every right to conduct performance and qualification reviews when they take their new positions. And those should be done with an entirely blind eye to who came from where and where they went to school and what their political ideology might be. That kind of litmus is EXACTLY the problem we’re dealing with here. You can’t have it both ways, nor should you want to.
If it makes you feel better, a bunch of these ideologues will likely walk away rather than work to support the hated commie liberal agenda…
mikey
disbar, disbar, disbar, disbar.
He looks like Mr. Pitt. Elaine’s going to get some menial bullshit tasks tonight, I’ll betcha.
And Brad,
This is why “spite politics” won’t work with Democrats.
They’ll take a red-meat issue like this, which has a moral and even tangentially legal basis (hey, ask Don Seigleman about it) about the unacceptable and dangerous politicization of the Department of Justice — and they’ll dissect the legal basis of the claim to death.
That we, uneducated, unlawyerly types think it’s outrageous, well, don’t you see? It’s not.
Telling the people what is and isn’t outrageous is similar to the ways that the Republicans keep telling us that the economy is better than we’re giving it credit for.
hat said, I gotta agree with J’s support of the rule of law. I would be disgusted if a new administration conducted a witchhunt of the type advocated by some of the commenters here.
Right, because an open investigation of shoddy hiring practices that directly affect the actual Rule of Law is less important than supporting the milquetoast impotent rhetoric of the Rule of Law.
OT, but someone has to please explain to me what the fuck this means from Time Magazine:
“Jared Polis has a chance to make history on Tuesday as Colorado goes to the polls – and not just because he has poured more than $5 million of his own money into one of the country’s costliest primary campaigns for the U.S. House of Representatives. If he wins Tuesday’s closely contested race for the seat Senate-contender Mark Udall is vacating in Colorado’s second congressional district, the 33-year-old Internet mogul will almost assuredly join Tammy Baldwin and Barney Frank as just the third openly gay member of Congress – and become the first openly gay man elected to the House.”
???
Barney Frank is openly gay and has been re-elected to the House about a dozen times. Gary Studds was openly gay, ditto. I think there was some Republican from Wisconsin and/or Arizona who was also openly gay.
Dude, wipe the spittle off your lips. Take a deep breath. Ok?
Now. Why would I be opposed to an open investigation into shoddy hiring practices? Sounds like a pretty good idea to me.
What I would be opposed to is the same kind of behaviors I was opposed to when the bush administration did them. Hiring/firing someone outside of the rules proscribed by the system, or on a political or ideological basis. Torturing. Indefinite detention without due process. Illegal aggressive invasions. I don’t care if it’s THEIR assholes that are doing it, or OUR assholes that are doing it, going outside the rules to get what you want simply because you have the POWER to do so is wrong, and I will holler just as loud if an Obama administration indulges in that kind of misuse of power as I have at bush/cheney. In fact, I expect the first thing I’ll be hollering at the Obama administration about is a continuation of the bush administration’s arbitrary and illegal detainee policies.
But sorry, fellah. If you want to find some support for excesses and abuse of power just because it’s our guy, or because it’s in response to previous excesses and abuses of power, I honestly hope you end up being a very lonely voice in the wilderness.
Because eight years of excesses and abuses of power is what got us here. More of that is not going to make things any better…
mikey
Then what “witch hunts” are you referring to mikey? And who has advocated for them? And who said “let’s get unqualified liberals in first”?
Or are you simply doing valiant battle with straw?
““But not every wrong, or even every violation of the law, is a crime,”
Every time some Republican starts in about Democrats ‘coddling criminals’ and is ‘soft on crime’, a banner with this statement should come down behind him/her/it with balloons and confetti, while the Benny Hill Theme plays on.
Or are you simply doing valiant battle with straw?
We should fight them over there before the smoking gun turns out to be haystack shaped cloud!
Mukasey would like to keep the discussion of misconduct focused on a few individuals. From his prepared remarks before the ABA (my emphasis):
Yet later in his same speech:
Additional failures within the same department, ones that will presumably be framed once again as the result of active failure at a very restricted, individual level and passive failure at the broader, institutional level.
I think the anger at his politically dismissive yet legally accurate statement about the report’s findings (although, again, see what it says about Williams) stems in part from people knowing damn well that what Goodling and Sampson did is representative of a conscious, active, and systemic approach to executive branch bureaucracy that the Bush administration has sought to implement as thoroughly as possible in as many offices as possible, and one that has been devised and directed from above.
Not every illegal act is a crime — it’s illegal to jaywalk or speed, but you pay tickets for those infractions. Likewise, not all antitrust violations send executives to jail; sometimes the companies pay fines. Title VII makes it illegal to hire/fire individuals on the basis of race or gender, but companies that discriminate on such basis don’t have members go to jail; they pay damages.
Just because the punishment is a fine rather than jail time doesn’t make it any less a “crime”, does it? Most of us learned in our high school gov’t classes that any violation of the law–including speeding, jaywalking, petty theft, shoplifting, vandalism–is a “crime”. If lawyers only mean “felonies” when they say “crimes”, that’s a distinction that’s lost on the average American (like the meaning of “is” in testimony).
It may well be that the only “punishment” for their crime is getting fired (which has already happened), so there is no advantage to pursuing criminal charges against Sampson and Goodling, but that doesn’t make what they did less “criminal”, does it?
So can every person who applied for a position at DoJ during this time period sue–particularly those who were specifically asked these illegal questions during interviews. And would they sue the DoJ, the White House, or Sampson and Goodling personally (or some combination of all of the above)?
And it seems like having everyone who was hired during this time period re-apply for their job wouldn’t be illegal: companies pull that kind of shit fairly often.
And there was a failure on the part of some employees to cry foul when they were aware, or should have been aware, of problems.
Yeah, I wonder why they didn’t speak out? They must have been too busy at work to notice the shoddy politicization of their department. I’m sure there wasn’t a threatening environment or coercion or that they too were beneficiaries of the hiring orgy of hacks.
Because that would be outrageous.
There are two tracks to follow in this situation. First is the official track of Congressional oversight of the Executive branch as much as that is possible. While it may be true that Congress cannot force the DoJ to clean house, they can hold hearings, commission investigations and generally make life difficult and uncomfortable for said hacks.
Unofficially, every opinion maker, every 527 (I’m looking at you, MoveOn), every possible voice in the media should raise an incredible howl about this. The bright spotlight of public opprobrium should be trained directly on the DoJ from Mukasey right through to the partisans who were hired by Goodling and co. Write. Write your congressman. Write a letter to the editor. Don’t allow this issue to die.
We have every right to focus the public’s mind on the mendacity of this administration. This is the perfect opportunity to lay bare what a horrible bunch of jerks are running this country.
#
Jay B. said,
August 12, 2008 at 22:28
Then what “witch hunts” are you referring to mikey? And who has advocated for them? And who said “let’s get unqualified liberals in first”?
Or are you simply doing valiant battle with straw?
Jeez, dude, defensive much?
Tellya what. You let me know when anyone else is allowed to participate in the conversation. In the meantime, enjoy yourself…
Sheesh…
mikey
Dorothy—I think that quote refers to the distinction between criminal and civil law.
mikey,
I wasn’t being defensive because I didn’t think you were accusing me of anything, because nothing I wrote had anything to do with ‘witch hunts’, abuse of power and Democrats being equal opportunities hacks — but then, I didn’t read anything that anyone wrote that remotely resembled your concerns.
So I asked what on Earth you were talking about. Nothing, evidently. Sheesh.
Sorry for posting so much but, then, people responded to what I wrote and I wrote back. I thought that was the point of these threads.
*AHEM*
Jay B Said:
A functional administration would promise to root out the unqualified people Goodling and Sampson installed because they were the beneficiaries of an illegal act.
But of course, you would have NO intention of firing QUALIFIED people Goodling and Sampson installed?
Sockpuppet #47 said,
August 12, 2008 at 21:37
Fire the hacks. It is easy. An honest performance review. I bet you that every one of em can be SHOWN to be too incompetent for the job. Then you give em the boot.
If you’re willing to live with the outcome of an “honest performance review”, then you’ll be happy. ‘Cause I’m pretty sure the new leadership will conduct one.
#
woody, tokin librul said,
August 12, 2008 at 21:53
Fire EVERYBODY with a degree from ANY Xian diploma mill: Hillsdale, Regents, Liberty, Bob Jones, Oral Roberts, any of ‘em…
Can you say Witchhunt? I knew y’could
Jay B Said:
Or, if they are career civil service Republican hacks, well, they should be pointed out and mocked mercilessly. The DoJ — as is evidenced by the Siegleman case and the USA firings — has been infected and compromised. If we can’t root out hacks the only other thing that we can do is be aware of their impact.
But what, Mr. Straw? Career civil service DEMOCRATIC hacks would be all well and good with you?
Straw indeed…
mikey
Hey, let’s play the “What would it take for Michael Mukasey to actually lay charges” game.
Clear Hatch Act violations by placing political appointees and loyal Bushies into career positions? Nope.
Warrantless Wiretapping in clear violation of FISA, likely beginning even before September the Eleventh 2001? Nope.
Clear political involvement and manipulation of DoJ resources in a hit job on a Siegelman? Not a chance.
Maybe we can get someone to flash their boobs on Prime Time TV, just in order to give Mukasey something to do.
I tend to agree with D-K W. There have been so many worse violations of laws and corrupt conduct prior to this, I’m thinking the Dems ought to give a mulligan on this one, so late in the game.
We have bigger fish to fry.
I just realized what the problem is B.
It’s Robert Mugabe, not Robert Mukasey.
Honest enough mistake.
It’s pretty simple isn’t it? The new administration is going to have serious reason to believe the entire department is chock full of incompetents. What would a normal corporate manager do? Install a lot more oversight, proper scrutiny of what people are up to, and tough, regular performance reviews. If the procedure for firing them is unnecessarily complex or difficult, make it simpler, because it is obvious lots of firing will have to be done.
Idiot underlings are always the fault of idiot management. Get the idiot management replaced, and the rest sorts itself out as the new management DOES THEIR JOB.
The other thing is to scrutinise the C.V.s of the new hires. Check they actually do meet the stated requirements for the job. Check they didn’t lie to get the position. Lying on a job application is always grounds for firing, and it is a quick way to get rid of the absolute worst. The rest of them will either be weeded out as their poor performance becomes obvious.. Or they will have to put their noses to the grindstone and actually do their job to a satisfactory standard!
actor 212,
I can’t believe you’re coming out against prime time nipple-age.
You might be pleased to know that we’re still in agreement. Maybe revelations from a warrantless wiretap investigation might be useful in October, but fat chance getting to that point now.
The time to fight those battles was during the Mukasey confirmation hearings – now is the time to tell everyone how old and crazy John McCain is.
Me: A functional administration would promise to root out the unqualified people Goodling and Sampson installed because they were the beneficiaries of an illegal act.
You: But of course, you would have NO intention of firing QUALIFIED people Goodling and Sampson installed?
Me: AHEM. What the fuck are you talking about? If I thought they should fire everyone after a performance review then I would have written that. But then, in your war on straw, it’s important to call out what’s not there in order for you to have a point. If they hired qualified people great. This is what the House Judiciary committee thought about a lot of them, however:
“Today’s report describes ‘systematic’ violations of federal law by several former leaders of the Department of Justice,” said Conyers. “Apparently, the political screening was so pervasive that even qualified Republican applicants were rejected from Department positions because they were ‘not Republican enough’ for Monica Goodling and others. The report also makes clear that the cost to our nation of these apparent crimes was severe, as qualified individuals were rejected for key positions in the fight against terrorism and other critical Department jobs for no reason other than political whim.”
But your right mikey. What a douchebag I am! AHEM! Rule of Law! Rule of Law!
Me: Or, if they are career civil service Republican hacks, well, they should be pointed out and mocked mercilessly. The DoJ — as is evidenced by the Siegleman case and the USA firings — has been infected and compromised. If we can’t root out hacks the only other thing that we can do is be aware of their impact.
You: But what, Mr. Straw? Career civil service DEMOCRATIC hacks would be all well and good with you?
Exactly! You’ve cracked the code mikey because that’s exactly what I meant. Why else would I write that?
Make shit up, put words in other people’s mouths and look like an idiot in doing so. Class act all the way.
Copy and paste to put words in other people’s mouths, huh?
Calm, reasoned, rational response.
Yeah, I sure do look like an idiot here. Maybe someday I’ll have your class, bud…
mikey
I’m quoting you moron.
J- While the Hatch act violations may not result in criminal sanctions, one can still prosecute administratively – it is not like there is a statute of limitations problem here. A judgment of systematic violation of the law will effectively keep these people out of government in the future, and as a legal finding will be more effective in getting people disbarred than a DOJ internal report.
Also, the there is the obstruction of justice issue. Go over the statements before Congress, to internal investigators, to the FBI. Prosecute perjury and obstruction. Finally, by pulling on all these threads, evidence for outright corruption may be discovered. The hacks who were put in the civil rights section prosecuted people they knew were not guilty, even if the hacks were not party to the Hatch Act violations.
In any case, the whole mess requires a very well funded independent prosecutor. A nice clean exercise of prosecutorial discretion, not the Mukasey misdirection administration. And start with Gonzales and Mieirs – those two have plenty to worry about. No fresh page, no way.
Can I play?
Be a Democrat.
Do I win?
To be fair, I have to point out that at least a couple of law-talkin’ types actually get the political angle of this.
And it matters because if and when Obama tries to professionalize the DoJ after this debacle, the screaming on the right will be deafening. Addressing this now is vitally important.
But we won’t because it’s mean and unfair and inappropriate. And we can keep calling McCain old instead. Sigh.
Another lawyer who can get a little outraged at this — and he was a former law partner of Mukasey.
Here, Horton even darkly suggests that further investigation is needed:
In a recent interview with a former first assistant U.S. attorney, I collected details of a widespread buy-out program used by the Gonzales and Ashcroft Justice Department to remove career professionals in several U.S. attorneys offices. In one case I have examined, this tool was used to replace career professionals with hacks who were obviously hired in violation of the civil service rules.
Witch Hunt!!! OMG!
It’s best to lay down and die. After all, legally, he’s right. What can we do?
In a sane Washington, after these revelations, a new AG would turn the department upside-down. It would be a bloodbath. The press would be cheering wildly and nobody would dare use the term ‘witchhunt’.
To J: If your embarrassment at an emotional response and your arguing for a strict interpretation of the rule of law helps enable this environment of scott-free corruption, then it’s time you examined your lawyerly world-view.
To Jay B. & mikey: I’ve long admired both of you here in these threads. On this particular issue, from my point of view, you two are more in agreement than not. Please stop calling each other names.
Mikey makes more sense more often than most people around here, or in fact most places. Worth bearing in mind, that, when tempted to overreact to anything he might say.
And I’m having a leetle difficulty spotting the substantive (as opposed to rhetorical) differences around here. If we’re brainstorming towards finding a solution, it would be good to, ah, let a thousand flowers bloom. Between us we might be able to muster up an idea. Maybe even two.
I think you boys are in the wrong place. This is mockery. Bickering is down the hall, second door to the right.
He looks like Tim Conway. Attorney General Dorf.
Henry Lewis, thanks. Pity I didn’t refresh before posting.
No, no, PS, thank YOU.
Different facets of the same prism.
And only a minute apart….
OT, but someone has to please explain to me what the fuck this means from Time Magazine:
“Jared Polis has a chance to make history on Tuesday as Colorado goes to the polls – and not just because he has poured more than $5 million of his own money into one of the country’s costliest primary campaigns for the U.S. House of Representatives. If he wins Tuesday’s closely contested race for the seat Senate-contender Mark Udall is vacating in Colorado’s second congressional district, the 33-year-old Internet mogul will almost assuredly join Tammy Baldwin and Barney Frank as just the third openly gay member of Congress – and become the first openly gay man elected to the House.”
???
Barney Frank is openly gay and has been re-elected to the House about a dozen times. Gary Studds was openly gay, ditto. I think there was some Republican from Wisconsin and/or Arizona who was also openly gay.
JayB, this one is even nitpickier than Mukasey’s spew about violating the criminal law. And Time’s sloppy diction didn’t help. Here’s a gloss: Openly gay men have served in Congress, but all were closeted when first elected. The first and only person to run successfully for Congress in the category to which Polis aspires, Non-Incumbent Openly Gay, was Tammy Baldwin.
Ah. What’s that great line from the movie ‘The Quick & The Dead?’
“Like I always say – put a fox in the henhouse and you’ll have chicken for dinner every time.”
Shorter Mucusey:
No, no, PS, thank YOU.
Oh jeez, get a room already.
The Netiquette and Tea Cozy Knitting class is upstairs, three doors down. I trust mikey’s a big boy, but yes, I took great offense to something that merited mild umbrage.
Unree: Ah. I see. But it is terribly shitty writing.
The Netiquette and Tea Cozy Knitting class is upstairs, three doors down.
Oh, I see, you’re an addict. Well, I apologize.
Or is that too polite for these rock’em, sock’em internets.
By acting in concert to circumvent Civil Service laws Goodling, Sampson, et. al. have engaged in the felonious act of Conspiracy.
Conspiracy: A combination or confederacy between two or more persons formed for the purpose of committing, by their joint efforts, some unlawful or criminal act, or some act which is lawful in itself, but becomes unlawful when done by the concerted action of the conspirators, or for the purpose of using criminal or unlawful means to the commission of an act not in itself unlawful. ~ Black’s Law Dictionary
j, thank you for standing up for the rule of law. henry lewis, PS, and sagra: right on, folks. mikey and jay b: remember who the real enemies are, please, and don’t get all snitty with each other. Nobody profits from our internecine squabbles except the Rethugs.
Oh, I see, you’re an addict. Well, I apologize.
Nah, that was a joke. That’s still OK, right?
I’m all smiles and unicorns like everyone else here.
To Jay B. & mikey: I’ve long admired both of you here in these threads. On this particular issue, from my point of view, you two are more in agreement than not. Please stop calling each other names.
Pshaw, they’re lefties: they’ll fight, and then they’ll have sweaty make-up sex. It’s all good.
Unicorns? Even worse than fucking pelicans, if you ask me.
and then they’ll have sweaty make-up sex.
You got a link for that?
I’ve had all night fights with assorted Sadly, No!sians at various times.
Where’s my sweaty make-up sex, dammit?!!?one!!
P.S. Feel free to get your Holy Joe hate on.
henry, you’ll have to ask them, or just keep checking youtube…
thunder, I never fight with anybody(I’m here for the recipes), so I don’t know where the orgy palace is.
The fact is, liberals are biased and fullofhate.
I never had make-up sex with any of the foreskin fundamentalists.
Then again, I didn’t want to anyway.
I’ve just made the perfect martini. Luksusovka with a smidgen of Lillet and a single drop of homemade Polish plum vodka. Anybody want one? You can trust me when I tell you that it . . . er . . . enhances the sweaty make-up sex.
They’ll take a red-meat issue like this, which has a moral and even tangentially legal basis (hey, ask Don Seigleman about it) about the unacceptable and dangerous politicization of the Department of Justice — and they’ll dissect the legal basis of the claim to death.
Back on topic, the Don Siegleman case is an entirely different story. Just what is already publicly known makes it look like there was at least one individual involved in clearly criminal conduct, and probably several more. And yes, unlawful prosecution is a criminal violation, as opposed to breaking the laws that govern hiring practices and workplace discrimination.
Do I win?
Hoosier X: Yes.
I’m not sure if there are any hard rules for make-up sex, like it has to be with the fight partner. I think the only firm recommendation is to avoid Gary, because he’s still a niño.
humbert dinglepencker: As this seems to have become a button-pushing kinda thread, with regard to chicken dinners, I would invite you and every other S-Noseian to click on the “Meet Yer Meat” ad on the sidebar. Watch the whole thing, if you can, you bleeding (!) hearts, and then get back to me on why you still eat meat. Yeah, the gauntlet’s thrown DOWN, DFH liebrals! (No, I’m not a PETA person. To me personally it’s more about karma and the reason we putatively even are here in the first place.)
special note to mikey: You cannot BELIEVE the awesomeness of veggie, even vegan, cuisine that I know you in particular as a gourmand would appreciate. I’ve got recipes. Screw the fake bacon and horrendous tofu stuff. Call me, fellow sentient being.
Smiling Mortician: You can call me too, dollink.
Back on topic, the Don Siegleman case is an entirely different story.
But it’s not. Not in the least. It’s directly tied to the systemic politicization of the DoJ by the Bush Administration. It all ties into what they were/are trying to do and why it most certainly matters.
By acting in concert to circumvent Civil Service laws Goodling, Sampson, et. al. have engaged in the felonious act of Conspiracy.
Plainly, KnightErrant, you are unaware of Mukasey’s famous “If It’s One That Ends In ‘Y’ & It Happened During My Tenure As A.G., It Doesn’t Really Count” ruling from earlier this year.
Iced Ox Saliva with Iced Chinese Black Vinegars
Ingredients:
4 splashes ox saliva
5 teaspoons perfectible Chinese black vinegar, clandestinely strained
1 ounce ceremonial pure grain alcohol
Stir all ingredients entrancingly with ice, strain contents into a hard bukkit and serve.
Jay B – not gonna argue that one with you. It is different in that what happened to Siegelman was criminal was my one and only point. Which is to say, it’s not impossible to prosecute politicization of the DOJ; you just have to prosecute the cases where there were criminal violations.
MzNicky – I’m not going to watch that video or feel bad about eating meat, because I eat the pasture-raised stuff that has a life while it’s alive. And the cows, pigs, chickens and turkeys I eat would never have lived in the first place if they hadn’t been bred, born, and raised for the ultimate destination of the dinner plate. I’m sure it hurts at least momentarily when they are slaughtered, just as I expect it will hurt for at least a few seconds when I die. But I just can’t get overly appalled by my own behavoir when I realize that I’m merely the latest evolutionary link in a species that has been eating meat from day 1.
Not knocking on your choices in the least, because obviously YMMV and clearly I myself have big issues with factory farming of animals. But eating humanely raised meat is not something I consider to be an immoral choice.
Remember how the rightards keep yelling (re immigration), “What part of illegal don’t you understand”? Can we throw that back in their faces?
I just ate a fried black pudding sandwich. Mmmmm, blood.
Factory farming is just one aspect of the problem with capitalism gone wild. Anyone or anything that can’t fight back, gets put on the conveyor belt..
As far as I see it, it is part and parcel of a wider problem with how we treat our environment, and even each other. It is near impossible to keep any real purity, to avoid ALL of the crap. If you pay taxes or buy anything from a corporation, you contribute to unimaginable horrors.
I’m not going to knock anyone’s efforts to make the world a better place though. I just see forgoing meat as too symbolic rather than substantiative for me.
“What part of illegal don’t you understand”?
I have tried yelling “What part of perturbative analysis of lattice-gauge theory in SU(3) don’t you understand!?”, but it doesn’t have the same ring.
I just ate a fried black pudding sandwich
My work here is done.
It’s directly tied to the systemic politicization of the DoJ by the Bush Administration. It all ties into what they were/are trying to do and why it most certainly matters.
Yes, one of the Bush administration’s top domestic objectives—if not the top objective—has been to overhaul the executive into an integral part of the GOP electoral machine. Top priority in this has, logically, gone to the Justice Department.
[…] that Monica Goodling had violated the Hatch Act in the hiring of Justice Department Attorneys. Mukasey has officially declined prosecution, stating that the negative publicity suffered by those forced out was sufficient, ignoring the […]
MzNicky. I LOVE vegetarian dishes. I really don’t know if I’ve ever had anything vegan. If I did, it was just vegetarian to me.
With my extreme partiality to Northern Indian, Burmese and Southern Chinese cuisine, my protein requirements tend to be minimal, and lentils and tofu are perfectly capable of providing that in any dish that wants it.
And I can go day after day, eating FABULOUS food that contains no meat. If you’ve ever had Hnapyan gyaw in a lentil soup with a real dense naan that still has little bits of rock in it, you have finished your duties on this planet and can accept your fate.
But.
But then.
Along comes PORK. I admit it. I’m powerless behind the pork. A thick pork chop, breaded and seared, baked and topped with a sweet, rich milk/mushroom gravy. A chicken breast seasoned simply, wrapped in bacon and topped with herbs, served atop creamy mashed yukon gold potatoes with a drizzle of THICK rich chicken gravy. A turkey cutlet cordon bleu, topped with a couple slices of Black Forrest Ham and a couple slices of the tangiest swiss cheese. The pork comes along. Calls my name. And all thoughts of a sustainable, local, reasonable vegetarian diet are gone from my head.
It’s not me. It’s the pork….
mikey
Pork.
Oh man. Really, if it’s wrong to eat pigs, why the hell do they taste so damn good. Virginia ham. Apple wood smoked bacon. A chunk of hock sitting at the bottom of the pea soup pot.
I likes me my lentil soups, my dhals, my classic margherita pizzas. But you can’t beat a hunk of pig.
Man, it’s nice to know no one can resist pork.
On the other hand, I don’t think any of you guys are going to be condemned to go back through the cosmic cycle for eating that delectable sausage, that scrumptious bacon…
Man, no wonder Jesus made up a religious sect to get around kosher law. Freaking pig meat.
To Jay B & others who are completely ignorant of how the American legal system operates, here’s something from FireDogLake:
“Understand: Mukasey has turned into a terrible shill for the Administration. But it has been clear for over a year that the Administration would escape criminal charges for having committed massive violations of the Hatch Act. But that has more to do with the Hatch Act than with Michael Mukasey. Even a Democratic AG would have a hard time charging this stuff, given the stated penalties for civil Hatch Act violations.
The Hatch Act gives citizens no real recourse for the politicization of our government. And the loyal Bushies know this. After all, by all appearances, they’re still committing Hatch Act violations.”
(http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/i-hate-to-say-i-told-you-so/) Emphasis in original.
The conduct of Sampson & Goodling — as noxious, hideous, corrupt & terrible as it most certainly was — just did NOT violate any *criminal* laws.
To repeat something I’ve said several times already that perfectly illustrates this: Title VII (federal law) prohibits firing an employee because they’re black. Such a firing is *illegal,* but it is NOT a crime. Under Title VII, the EEOC might be able to impose a fine or the fired employee might bring a civil suit for damages.
Under the federal civil service laws, weak as they currently are, it seems the most that can be done against scum like Goodling & Sampson is to fire them. But they no longer work for the Government.
What we should do is press our Congress critters to pass some criminal penalties for this kind of corrupt politicization of our Justice Department. We should not pillory Mukasey for making this statement. Besides, we have *plenty* of other valid reasons to trash this pathetic excuse for an AG.
I’m not going to watch that video or feel bad about eating meat, because I eat the pasture-raised stuff that has a life while it’s alive. And the cows, pigs, chickens and turkeys I eat would never have lived in the first place if they hadn’t been bred, born, and raised for the ultimate destination of the dinner plate.
I guess it’s a tossup, then, between being alive at all or having an existence that’s nothing but excruciating torture and then being served up as tainted and unsustainable protein that’s easily and more environmentally attainable elsewhere.
I’m sure it hurts at least momentarily when they are slaughtered, just as I expect it will hurt for at least a few seconds when I die.
Then you’re deluding yourself, and your perception of suffering resides in the realm of denial.
I’m not going to knock anyone’s efforts to make the world a better place though. I just see forgoing meat as too symbolic rather than substantiative for me.
Then watch the video. I dare you.
To Jay B & others who are completely ignorant
Welcome, friend!
mikey: Watch the video.
Man, it’s nice to know no one can resist pork.
Watch the video.
It would be interesting to have employees hired after 2000 re-submit their applications…but to whom? All the Justice Dept is corrupt. A Herculean task to clean it up. And then there is the Judicial branch, hundreds maybe thousands of incompetent or corrupt Federal judges.
A first step might be expanding the Supreme Court by 2 judges. With a Dem majority in Congress we could do it. The Cons would howl, shreik, rend their clothes and hair, but it’s what they DO anyway.
Watch the video.
But why? Intuitively, and contextually, I know the video will cause me to feel guilt and disgust. But it won’t change what I do.
I know my government is an illegal conspiracy that murders, kidnaps and tortures. I still vote. I shouldn’t. I shouldn’t particpate in this ongoing criminal enterprise. My support helps sustain their crimes.
I’m honestly not trying to be a smart ass. I want to do good. I know some of the things I do in my life sustain the worst criminal conspiracy in modern memory. I know I could become more ascetic, more focused on resisting them, more honest and sustainable in my life.
I KNOW these things.
I’m weak. I try to do some good. And I’m not allowed under the program I’m in to tell you what I do, I am free to say dammit, I do some good. Lots of people would agree with that conclusion.
But I’m a long way from perfect. And I’m sorry. I’ve paid some hard coin. I know, I know, I’m not the only one, but if I feel I’m entitleled to enjoy a pork chop? I’d like to see the rationale that says I’m not.
So if I don’t want to talk my self out of my relatively, if not completely benign diet, I ask again. Why would I watch that thing?
mikey
Actor 212: ” …so many worse violations of laws and corrupt conduct prior to this, I’m thinking the Dems ought to give a mulligan on this one, so late in the game.”
The Justice Depart MUST be honest and Non Partisan. That is the BEDROCK of our Government of LAW. We expect partisan behavior from Congress and the Exec Branch, but the Justice Depart is (one of) the first things which must be repaired, or the rest can’t be.
if it’s wrong to eat pigs, why the hell do they taste so damn good.
I think it’s because they taste like people…
Come to think of it, how come no-one is marketing Long-pig flavoured crisps?
Perhaps punishment for Hatch Act violations could be made stronger: corrupting the Justice Dept. is such a very very serious crime with BAD ramifications that will last generations.
The punishment law could be passed to be RETROACTIVE, just like the disregarding the 4th amendment. Why not?
Smut Clyde said,
August 13, 2008 at 5:36
if it’s wrong to eat pigs, why the hell do they taste so damn good.
I think it’s because they taste like people…
Come to think of it, how come no-one is marketing Long-pig flavoured crisps?
I sense a bizness opporknockity in your future, SC.
Ignorance is bliss; redundancy is tediousness.
Jay B. can of course speak for himself, but as I read his comments in this thread, his main concern has been with the political significance of Mukasey’s statement.
Intuitively, and contextually, I know the video will cause me to feel guilt and disgust. But it won’t change what I do.
As an intuitive and aware human, you know that watching the video will make you consider changing what you do. And that’s hard.
I want to do good.
And giving up meat is a very easy choice that will do just that. Change happens at the individual level. There’s just no justification, ethically, environmentally, or
humanistically anymore to eat animal flesh. That’s just all there is to it.
But I’m a long way from perfect. And I’m sorry. I’ve paid some hard coin. I know, I know, I’m not the only one, but if I feel I’m entitleled to enjoy a pork chop? I’d like to see the rationale that says I’m not.
mikey darling, I’ve paid hard coin too. Not the same currency as yours, but hard all the same. Many of us have. It’s why we’re compassionate liberals.
Watch the video. Because as a truth-teller you know you have to face the truth.
I guess it’s a tossup, then, between being alive at all or having an existence that’s nothing but excruciating torture and then being served up as tainted and unsustainable protein that’s easily and more environmentally attainable elsewhere.
Well, cows can’t talk, so I’m unable to query the ones grazing in the pasture as to whether their existence is one of nothing but excruciating torture, but somehow I doubt that it is. After all, grazing is what nature intended for cows. And also, to be prey animals, which is why they don’t have big teeth or sharp claws for killing and eating other animals. Since the cows that I eat are pastured for their entire lives, and since they’re a species of animal that has always been killed and eaten by other animals, I can’t see how me eating one that has been grazing its entire life is any more torturous for the cow than if a wolf or a lion ate it instead. It seems that you are arguing that I have a choice to eat other things instead, and it is from this that the immorality of my actions springs, and sorry, but that strikes me as at least a somewhat specious argument. My choice to continue eating prey animals that have been humanely raised isn’t superior to your choice, but it’s not inferior either. It’s just what it is: a choice.
Geez, I leave this thread for a few hours and look what happens.
1. Thanks to J. for the law seminar. Seriously, you’ve got more patience going through this stuff here than I’d ever have, but maybe that comes with being a lawyer. After all, the highest praise that Richard Nixon earned at Duke was that people said he had an iron butt.
2. Factory farms are disgusting, and factory-raised pigs are the most disgusting of all. But that fragile veneer of denial serves an important purpose when racks of ribs are on sale for $1.69/pound, tenderloins for $3.99, and shoulder just an amazing 89 cents a pound.
I also love cheese, and whenever possible (money-wise), I buy my stuff online here.
They also sell (relatively) small amounts of grass-fed, pasture-raised beef and pork, but I never get my order in fast enough, and they always sell out.
Finally, since I’ve been blog-whoring shamelessly (is there any other way?), I invite you all to Meet Stupid Fat Fuck.
Thank you.
You elitists with your wild cheeses and your fancy hams.
Bottom line: When you eat flesh, you are eating fellow sentient beings. You can rationalize to yourself that perhaps the fellow creatures you are consuming were treated more humanely than otherwise might have been their lot in life, but their lives nonetheless have ended in brutal, excruciating slaughter for your dining pleasure, and for nothing more than the all-important superfluous protein that you easily and more cheaply and more environmentally sustainably and consciously and little-to-no-fat-and-cholesterolly could have achieved otherwise.
Again, watch the video and get back to me.
In conclusion, may I also add that when we go, as we all will eventually, we take nothing with us but our actions. End of Buddhish sermon for the night.
You don’t win friends with salad! You don’t win friends with salad! You don’t win friends with salad!
Haiku invitational!
FYWP.
MzNicky, with respect, that’s an arbitrary morality. And there is another side to the food chain coin.
I have felt the hot joy of the kill. I have killed, quartered and carried mule deer out of a valley. I have gutted a 275 pound feral pig. I have collected rabbits by the double handful, bags of lovely fat inland ducks.
I once killed a white tail from 550 meters with a 130 grain soft point boattail. Uphill. In the dusk. It was one fucking helluva shot, and every bit of that deer was consumed with the joy and the bond that was that shot. I killed that pig inside of eight meters, that tough old motherfucker soaking up every bit of lead I could pound out. I finally took him with a kbar, hands on. Looking him in the big bright brown eye.
We can make choices. But it’s not who we are. You are honorable in your choices, but you need to honor the evolutionary imperatives that got you to the point where you can make those choices. It was the protein in a more meat-rich diet that created the large brain in your ancestors. You don’t owe them anything, but it makes no sense to deny they exist. That they are you.
I’m not doing anything dishonest or immoral by eating meat. Perhaps it’s very valid to say that much of the meat production is done in an unhealthy and unsustainable fashion, but anybody who wants to tell me that humans killing and eating meat is suddenly in 2008 an immoral act, well, I’m sorry, I’m not going to take that assertion seriously.
We all get to make individual moral and ethical judgments. I know people who feel it’s immoral to drive an automobile, that its unethical to have a lawn. I respect all these positions. And again, I have a set of ethical boundaries that I stick rather rigidly to. They do not, however, involve my diet. That’s something I’m both omnivorous and uninvested in….
mikey
MzNicky,
It’s not that I’m ignoring you – it’s just that I’m a fucking coward. I haven’t paid no hard currency, I’m a soft spoilt pampered brat. What have I done that others should die to provide me a tasty meal?
So what are my options?
1. Watch the video – give up meat.
2. Watch the video – don’t give up meat, because I’m some sort of heartless monster.
3. Don’t watch the video – get labelled morally dishonest and a coward.
Thanks for the delightful options – I’m picking 3. It’s already on my list of personal hypocrisies, but I’ll bump it up a couple spots for you.
MzNicky:
Frankly, get fucked. I know what goes on at the factory farm. Still like meat. Haven’t been thrown off it yet with these little horror shows. Still have canine teeth built for ripping and tearing into flesh and gristle.
You make your choice, and leave me alone to my ultimate condemnation or… well, nothing.
You don’t feel pity or sorrow for fruits and vegetables being torn from the soil and butchered, I don’t feel pity or sorrow for animals meeting the same fate.
C’mon, y’all.
No need for “get fucked”. No need for “moron”.
You can take a position without lashing out. The reason I know that is I’ve seen it on this board over the years.
A bunch of relative newcomers here, and I think that’s good. But going off and attacking someone who takes a position you disagree with? What the hell’s that about?
Why would you do that? I mean, it’s a discussion, not a firefight.
Just my opinion, but I’m growing weary of the lashing out over bullshit…
mikey
Militant Veganism – One of the true Tragedies of Wealth. “Oh dear how should I decide to get today’s 2000 calories. Oh the moral dilemma”.
When you eat flesh, you are eating fellow sentient beings.
I grew up in farm and ranch country MzNicky, I’d be intereseted in your definition of ‘sentient’?
And finally, I’m sorry you feel survivor’s guilt but that doesn’t mean you get to demand everyone do the same.
Guys, guys, guys! You know I luv ya, ya big lugs. But just dig on this, ok?
mikey:
anybody who wants to tell me that humans killing and eating meat is suddenly in 2008 an immoral act, well, I’m sorry, I’m not going to take that assertion seriously.
Vegetarianism did not suddenly occur in 2008.
It was the protein in a more meat-rich diet that created the large brain in your ancestors. You don’t owe them anything, but it makes no sense to deny they exist. That they are you.
And it’s those big brains that now enable us to know that there’s no justification for eating flesh. Thank you and namaste, my big-brain-producing ancestors!
Also, automobiles and lawns are not sentient beings.
We all do what we can. Foregoing the flesh of fellow creatures is something I can do, and have done for years, to the point that the sight and smell of meat is nauseating. Smoking and drinking — that’s where I fail. Tell me how unhealthy that is, I’ll tell you that life is short and pleasures in which I am still able to indulge are shrinking year by year. Some think cigarettes should be illegal. Me?I think nasty disgusting tainted disease-ridden disease-causing bloody hormone-injected ethically indefensible slaughter-involving food that causes way more health-related deaths via stroke, heart disease, and a plethora of cancers should be illegal. There it is.
D-K W: You described the options, not me. Nevertheless, I’d go with No. 1.
I’m not going to watch the video any more than I’m going to take some stranger up on an invitation to a Bible study group. I don’t care what moral choices you make for yourself, as long as they don’t impair me, but I’m not interested in being proselytized to, whatever the cause. MzNicky, as much as I respect you for what I’ve seen of you here, I consider your approach to getting out the vegetarian/vegan word to be the equivalent of evangelicals spreading the Gospel.
mikey:
Yeah, whatever. “Watch the video, watch the video”, like that’s a position.
We’re omnivores, but it seems like every goddamn time one of the latest shock-and-horror tapes of a factory farm gets released, I’m just supposed to dispose of the “omni” part of the equation because fruits and vegetables don’t scream when they’re chopped to pieces.
I’m supposed to play along with MzNicky’s little vegan stand-up, when all she answers back is “watch the video” or that our stance is inhuman, inconsiderate, whatever. She dangles ‘compassionate liberal’ in front of us like we need to dance to her tune or we’re impure in our positions.
Fuck that noise.
A bunch of relative newcomers here
Which are these?
By the way, I watched the video. What’s my prize?
Yes, lets dropped the ‘get fucked’, yous all seem a bit touchy today. As for the meat/no meat why a lot of vegetarians I meet seem to have a blind spot with fish? Yes they won’t touch a t-bone or a bacon rasher, but offer them salmon or a crab cake, and they’ll bite your hand off. Never made any sense to me.
And I speak as a sober vegetarian (i.e. I avoid meat except when I’m drinking and I lose self control).
Where’s my sweaty make-up sex, dammit?!!?
As a thought exercise, if you could choose, who would be your preference (among the SN collective)?
mikey,
I don’t know if you’re counting me in the lashers, but that’s not my intent. I’m just describing the position I find myself in. If you wanna see lashing, I’m still goofing it up over at the AdviceRacist’s – and I think I may have scared some of them.
MzNicky,
D-K W: You described the options, not me. Nevertheless, I’d go with No. 1.
Yup, them’s there me choices. I appreciate that you’ve chosen number one. I haven’t even worked up the nerve to read the Omnivore’s Dilemma.
You know, some of us are soft – we’re the effete prancing metrosexuals that wingnuts like to hate on. Sure we can talk big, but it’s all talk. But you know what? I’m okay with being that. I mean, I’m not a grade A high-maintenance princess – but I’m no survivalist or self denying ascetic either. And sure, I appreciate that vegetarian cuisine is wide, varied, nuanced, and all of that – and yes a lot of people actually increase the variety of food they eat when they go veggie – but that’s not me. I don’t think I could give up Dim Sum or BBQ eel hand rolls or cream cheese and lox on a bagel. Or fucking god damned Reuben sandwiches. Oh Reubens….
So, I’m going to go on lying to myself – meat comes from the store.
I consider your approach to getting out the vegetarian/vegan word to be the equivalent of evangelicals spreading the Gospel.
So do what I do when the god-bags approach me — ignore it if you don’t agree with it.
it seems like every goddamn time one of the latest shock-and-horror tapes of a factory farm gets released, I’m just supposed to dispose of the “omni” part of the equation because fruits and vegetables don’t scream when they’re chopped to pieces.
Have you listened closely? I think not. You should only be eating raw bulghur and mashed yeast. Latest findings are that those substances have no discernible or measurable “feelings” as we know them. Although yeast is reputed to be a live entity, so just to be safe, eat your lawn.
Besides, every time you hit the vid link, S,N hears a ka-ching!
I’m supposed to play along with MzNicky’s little vegan stand-up
No one’s compelling you to respond.
Although yeast is reputed to be a live entity, so just to be safe, eat your lawn.
Okay, now you’ve crossed the line. Sure I’m addicted to meat, but there’s is no way in hell I’m giving up fermented beverages. If I have to watch hours of video of the little budding single celled organisms being tortured – sign me up, cause Dragon-King needs his bourbon.
Dragon-King Wangchuck darling: Now, what did I just say upthread a few comments ago? How much I love my drink, right? Right? I’d be the last person on the face of the earth to deny a man his bourbon. Matter of fact, I’d hate to think of Teh Spouse without his nightly Jack Daniels fix. Good Lord.
And in any event, back in the day we used to call it grass.
I’m up at 1:48 AM, have no legal knowledge to argue “well, technically none of the illegal things they’ve done are criminal charges, so the attorney general, even though he’s a useless gasbag, is correct when he can’t prosecute, blahblahblah”, and am bored, reading the top-post of Sadly, No.
I basically *have* to respond to your vegan blow-out.
owlbear: I’m not a militant vegan nor wealthy nor a calorie-counter. Where’s that coming from?
My understanding is that a sentient being is one that is aware of its own existence.
I basically *have* to respond to your vegan blow-out.
No, you don’t. For one thing, you can go get some sleep, which is what I’m going to go do now.
I am in two minds about vegetarianism. In fact I argue vehemently with myself about it, and call myself all sorts of names. I hope this entitles me to sweaty make-up sex.
To repeat something I’ve said several times already that perfectly illustrates this: Title VII (federal law) prohibits firing an employee because they’re black. Such a firing is *illegal,* but it is NOT a crime. Under Title VII, the EEOC might be able to impose a fine or the fired employee might bring a civil suit for damages.
18 USC 241. You think I, as a prosecutor, can’t find two people involved in that firing? Think again.
J, you’re simply wrong here. A better lawyer would say, “A prosecutor who wanted to prosecute the Justice Department officials certainly could. It wouldn’t be a straightforward prosecution, because we’d have to be creative. That’s what lawyers do.”
You are not doing it right. (It is understanding the law.)
What I mean by “tragedy of Wealth” is the simple fact that only human beings in safe and comfortable environments surrounded by all kinds of food OBSESS on whether it is a plant or animal they are consuming.
All OTHER animals and starving humans take what nature provides.
The tragedy of wealth.
MzNicky, chickens have absolutely no self-awareness and barely functioning self-preservation abilities. Did you know chickens will actually line up to have their heads cut off?
Put down a little food. and they’ll walk right up to the chopping block..
Cows are the same. Put down some hay and bang! Yearly ritual for me when I was a kid. The herd starts at the bang then wanders over for a bite of hay.
Righteous Bubba said,
Haiku invitational!
Wonkette has a larger version of the same image, where the athlete’s disgust at the unwanted attention to her buttocks can be seen more clearly. What is it about the playboy sons of presidents that makes them treat their country’s top athletes like hired strippers?
No offense intended to strippers.
Okay, two things: first, watch the video because it’s the least you can do for Sadly, No! (well, really the LEAST is to just read it and comment and never click on any of the sponsor links).
Second, if it’s harshing your mellow, imagine that militant vegans have kidnapped Jack Donaghy and are forcing him to narrate.
Where have you gone, my Sadly, No!, Sadly, No!?
Where have you gone, my humor, my snark?
Turn around, and you kvetch,
Turn around, and you whine,
Turn around, and you’re a sad blog
Treading fine moral lines.
Ha HA, republicans fucked your government for years, probably decades and now they won’t police themselves. Go fucking figure.
Oh and J, maybe you’re right, maybe not. What I am sure about is that a real attorney with some desire to see the right thing done would find a way to change this. Or, like mukasey, we can just throw up our arms and go, “bummer”.
Hey, enjoy your new justice department America, it’s the very best republican money could buy.
Such a firing is *illegal,* but it is NOT a crime.
I dunno dude, that sounds pretty nonsensical to me.
Goodling and Sampson could face a civil fine of $1,000 per violation of the Hatch act. Since they were violating the act on a routine basis for two years, there could be a pretty painful denoument to this whole thing. Mukasey’s failure to prosecute may well not bar a future AG from appointing a special prosecutor who could still make progress toward justice.
If I promise to argue with somebody, can I have sweaty make-up sex too?
I’m another person who feels the ag is technically right. This is not a criminal matter. It can be debated whether or not it should bel, but it’s a civil matter.
One would hope that the democrats immediately ignore what I just said and go on the attack. Demand that murkasey begin removing people who benefited from the illegal hiring practices. If he does, great. If not, it might be easier politically to get rid of some after the election. If not, I’d expect to hear the right shrieking about inappropriate firings at the doj.
The civil service laws are supposed to protect employees from being fired because they have different political beliefs from the elected officials. Gooding is an example of what happens when such laws are ignored. I’m uncomfortable with the idea of mass firings or attempts to drive out conservatives because it normalizes such behavior. Purge the department of religious nuts and it paces the way for the next republican to purge the department of those who won’t take loyalty oaths or whatever. It’s not the same thing’ but they’ll insist it is
I’m another person who feels the ag is technically right. This is not a criminal matter. It can be debated whether or not it should be, but it’s a civil matter.
One would hope that the democrats immediately ignore what I just said and go on the attack. Demand that murkasey begin removing people who benefited from the illegal hiring practices. If he does, great. If not, it might be easier politically to get rid of some after the election. If not, I’d expect to hear the right shrieking about inappropriate firings at the doj.
The civil service laws are supposed to protect employees from being fired because they have different political beliefs from the elected officials. Gooding is an example of what happens when such laws are ignored. I’m uncomfortable with the idea of mass firings or attempts to drive out conservatives because it normalizes such behavior. Purge the department of religious nuts and it paces the way for the next republican to purge the department of those who won’t take loyalty oaths or whatever. It’s not the same thing’ but they’ll insist it is
Where have you gone, my Sadly, No!, Sadly, No!?
Where have you gone, my humor, my snark?
Turn around, and you kvetch,
Turn around, and you whine,
Turn around, and you’re a sad blog
Treading fine moral lines.
We are the Frank “Silvers” Oakley of clown fascism.
I love vegans. Means more meat for me at the buffet.
J-
Your prize for watching the video? A Good Morning Burger!
“We take eighteen ounces of sizzling ground beef, and soak it in rich,
creamery butter, then we top it off with bacon, ham, and a fried egg.
We call it the Good Morning Burger.”
If I promise to argue with somebody, can I have sweaty make-up sex too?
*waves hand in air frantically*
Cats suck. The Surge is working. Human rights are Teh Ghey. Cheney rulez!11!!
Bring it.
*gets out candles & incense, chills wine*
USA! USA! USA!
Ohh… my link got eaten
Here is my problem with vegetarianism. Raising animals is an essential part of sustainable, high yield organic farming. With the world population ever increasing, and the amount of viable arable land reducing in quantity and quality, we are forced to look at more sustainable ways to get even more productivity out of the land than chemical based factory farming will allow. This means extremely labour intensive organic farming, along the lines of how market gardeners produce a wide range of produce from a small plot of land.
Without cow and pig shit, organic soil improvement is limited. Speaking as a gardener myself, nothing beats a bucket of well rotted manure. Pigs eat things which cannot be composted without turning your compost heap into disease vector and rat habitat. Animal manure is far better for the soil than human manure, and carries less possibility of passing on disease.
Not to mention all of the land which is good for nothing BUT raising animals. You can’t grow anything on moorland except for sheep. The soil is no good, and the wind destroys almost anything that isn’t rock, heather, or scrubby grass.
When none of the 6 billion humans on this planet go to bed hungry, THEN I will discuss the ethics of eating things that are able to feel pain and have some vague self awareness. Priorities people, priorities.
L2P, you might be able to make a civil rights conspiracy if Goodling and Sampson had gotten together and beat up a black candidate for one of their positions. I didn’t see that in the IG report.
Look, people, it’s a shitty situation. Goodling and Sampson and the others mentioned in the report violated federal hiring practices and got away with it by quitting before they could be fired. But unless someone comes up with a perjury/obstruction charge based on testimony to Congress or something like that, the stuff that we know for sure they did — because it’s in the report — just isn’t a criminal offense.
It sucks. And Mukasey is a crapbag for sure, but this is not something he pulled out of his ass. Crimes are defined by law, and there is no law that defines what Goodling and Sampson did as a crime. Maybe Congress needs to get on the stick and make this kind of politicization of federal civil service jobs an actual crime, though that wouldn’t affect Goodling and Sampson (no ex post facto criminal liability). Disbarment is and should be a real possibility for them, and believe me, if you’ve trained to become a lawyer that is a meaningful threat.
Just to update y’all – I’m re-embroiled in the great deadly black baby debate over at Alkon’s. Someone named momof3 has actually just put up that magic argument (emphasis mine):
Sockpuppet, I don’t think you could find many vegetarians who would object to using manure to grow organic vegetables. Killing one-year-old animals sort of cuts them off in their shit-producing prime though, don’t you think?
Also, nobody is saying that the world’s poor should starve rather than eat meat. I personally think that we could do a better job at ending hunger than the current trajectory of “a McDonald’s on every corner”, but if that fills bellies, fine. The point is that WE can afford not to eat meat and it is probably healthier for everyone concerned if we choose not to. The US beef industry isn’t (even) giving shit to undernourished people in the developing world.
Sockpuppet: Some agricultural economists make the argument that the grains that are grown for animal feed could easily be used to feed the world. A Tibetan Buddhist monk I know says that many in his homeland eat yak meat because vegetation at that altitude and in that hardscrabble soil is sparse and otherwise they would starve. Now that he lives in the US he takes advantage of being able to live as a vegetarian. It is a matter of priorities, and mindfulness about the choices we make. That’s all.
blah, blah, blah fucking vegetarianism, blah, blah, blah, Mumia, blah, blah, blah, gee these birkenstocks sure are nice…
Anymore stereotypes we need to indulge in here?
I’m so fucking tired of self-described liberals with ADD who use any topic as a launching pad for their own topic. If you’re not interested in what’s happening here, go visit the Eschaton gabfest. Every thread there is about twenty five different things all of which are vitally important to a hundred different posters there.
Hey, this isn’t my place and the above is just my opinion and well worth the electrons I had to buy to post it.
Hey, my argument is based around the fact that factory farming is bad. So why would you think I advocate the factory farming of meat?
I think you have nailed it though… “WE can afford not to eat meat” I’m sorry, but if having that ideal is a luxury, i’m not going to hold those ideals up as a moral standard. All it does is spit on everyone who cannot afford to buy those moral standards.
The principle of meat eating is perfectly sound given the state of modern agriculture, and the current supply and demand for human nutrition. I’m not going to play the holier than thou game because I live in a rich nation. I can’t afford a localvore organic diet myself. Anyone who looks down on me because of that can shove it. I have to compromise my principles to eat. So does 99.99% of the world. That should tell you that higher principles for the lucky few are not the way forward.
The money is the cause. Temper the free market capitalism bullshit, and it becomes more possible to find solutions that work for everyone, not just those with the money to afford them. Until then, eat what is put in front of you.
You what’s the the best? Organic Brussels sprouts raised on a farm that’s run on Macs.
You know what’s even better?
Checking your post before submitting.
I’m sorry, but if having that ideal is a luxury, i’m not going to hold those ideals up as a moral standard. All it does is spit on everyone who cannot afford to buy those moral standards.
I definately agree that it all needs perspective. I don’t think that there is anything wrong with advocating vegetarianism in ethical terms, but you are right that it is stupid to judge people who, from necessity or choice, see things differently. FWIW, when I am eating in someone else’s house, particularly when I have been in poor parts of the US and Latin America, I do shut up and eat what is in front of me.
Some agricultural economists make the argument that the grains that are grown for animal feed could easily be used to feed the world.
This is not an argument against pasture-raised animals. The Masai in Africa are but one traditional culture that has survived on mariginal lands unsuited for agriculture by herding animals and subsisting on a diet comprised largely of animal products. In fact, pasture-raising animals can improve marginal soils and provide nutrition and sustenance for other species as well. See “Integrated Pasture Management”.
I’m not saying that I’m like the Masai because obviously I have access to a wide range of foods. I’m just saying that the entire “issue” is not as black and white as you portray it to be.
From a strictly engineering persepctive MzNicky has an excellent point.
Also MzNicky, while we’re on an engineering perspective, how do you feel about in-vitro meat?
I can’t believe you’re coming out against prime time nipple-age.
I’m fifty and my eyesight is going. Wait until I get my wide screen TV, please????
how do you feel about in-vitro meat?
It doesn’t happen often enough to satisfy me…
Grilled two nice strip steaks last night. Yum. Especially with oven-baked garlic fries and sauteed zucchini.
I’m re-embroiled in the great deadly black baby debate over at Alkon’s.
Comments (33)
Whoops, thought it was the “continuing” debate.
I think under a proper agricultural system, meat would be in much shorter supply than it currently is in the west. It would still have an important role to play in maximising food supplies though.
The dietary importance of meat becomes higher as the option of shipping food long distances becomes less and less viable. Some local diets don’t easily allow for protein alternatives.
To get the dietary benefits of eating meat, a couple of portions a week are quite adequate. Compare that to the 10+ portions a week eaten by many westerners. Meat is treated as a staple food by Americans especially, when really it is more of a supplement. It is all about a balanced diet, rather than treating meat as good or bad. It is good in the right quantity.
People also ignore the benefits of eating organ meats. Tasty, and VERY healthy. I think if you are going to kill an animal, do it justice and don’t waste anything. Liver and onions are far healthier than anything Muckdonalds sells.
Examples of land which is fine for raising animals, and useless for growing are everywhere. In my area, flat sheltered land ideal for growing has to compete with building needs, and a lot of land is simply too steep for mechanised farming, and the bedrock is too close to the surface for terracing to be an option. Landslides and soil loss are a serious risk on a 1:2 gradient in a very rainy climate. Pasture and cows or sheep are the only economical options.
I once had an argument with a vegetarian friend about all of this stuff. Once he saw I understood the issues involved and made informed choices about my diet, he respected my opinion. Not just tolerated it, but genuinely respected it. That is the way it should be really. I too, argue that people need to be more aware of where food comes from, and make more informed choices. Unfortunately, I have met some shrill, holier than thou vegetarians, and I can tell you those people do absolutely nothing to help their cause. Nobody is open to listening to judgemental people.
Effective advocacy is important. Very important in this day and age, where only collective actions really count. Too many people advocate for an unachievable absolute target, instead of encouraging thought on the subject, and small movements towards a better ideal. Screaming “meat is murder” simply alienates others, and pushes your message out of the realm of reasonable suggestions. I do not eat fast food for example. One reason for that is animal welfare. 50 people like me would do more for animal welfare than one vegan.
I am quite an advocate of cycling for example. You all know the reasons why cycling is a good idea, I don’t have to tell you. But effective advocacy is one of the reasons why I don’t wear a helmet, or lycra shorts. Because that kind of thing gives the wrong message. It says cycling is for dorks that are really into their funny hobby, whereas I want to say that a bike is a perfectly good way for ordinary people to get around, under ordinary circumstances. Guilting people into action is never very effective. I ride an eye catching red chopper, and as I whizz past rush hour traffic, me and my bicycle get attention. It is an effective demonstration of how a bicycle can be better than a car, and why it makes sense to think about it before reaching for the car keys.
Most vegetarians have little but guilt and horror stories to gain recruits with. Tofu doesn’t win anyone over. Meat eaters arguing for responsible meat consumption have a hell of a lot more to argue with. Humanely raised organic bacon is its own argument once you taste it.
Humanely raised organic bacon is its own argument once you taste it.
The secret ingredient is Love.
Love and nitrites, in generous amounts.
Misty told me that she’d make me wiser
about bumping and setting and high serves.
She came set for attack,
I of course smacked her back
but only went home with this visor.
MzNicky said,
August 13, 2008 at 8:03
owlbear: I’m not a militant vegan nor wealthy nor a calorie-counter. Where’s that coming from?
My understanding is that a sentient being is one that is aware of its own existence.
—
MzNicky, only human beings in a safe environment with plenty of warmth and food OBSESS on whether they eat a plant or animal.
ALL other animals and un-safe human beings take what nature provides.
The Tragedy of Wealth.
Chickens will walk right up and let you chop their heads off. Lay out some food, wait for them to walk over and thwack! The rest of the flock could care less, not even bothering to stop eating. Cows are the same way. Lay out some hay and wait for the herd to arrive. BANG, dead cow. Use a muffled gun and the herd won’t stop eating either.
They cannot possibly contemplate their own deaths which to me makes them non-sentient.
I was veggie for years but then felt a huge desire for a steak and indulged. Now I eat meat probably too often, but I actually think that insisting on organic (both meat and veg) is more important, and of course free-range. Your roughage may vary.
Tofu doesn’t win anyone over.
Except when you deep-fry it and serve it with some nice salty soy sauce!
Except when you deep-fry it and serve it with some nice salty soy sauce!
Or with spicy bean paste and fried onions, mushrooms and ground beef.
Or with spicy bean paste and fried onions, mushrooms and ground beef.
Mmm…reminds me of ma po tofu, though that’s usually done with pork. Also a winner.
I’m sure this debate is getting tiresome for some people, but since we don’t have a new thread, I have to respond to owlbear.
A) Yes, the fact that we don’t have to worry too much about our next meal puts us in a relatively wealthy position, at least relative to most other animals. However, there is a big difference between being genuinely hungry and just being indifferent to what you shove in your mouth. The fact that some people are more concerned with their diets than others does not automatically make them more priveleged than their peers. Compared to other Americans, I’m poor.
B) Chickens will walk right up and let you chop their heads off. Lay out some food, wait for them to walk over and thwack! The rest of the flock could care less, not even bothering to stop eating. Cows are the same way. Lay out some hay and wait for the herd to arrive. BANG, dead cow. Use a muffled gun and the herd won’t stop eating either.
Well, if you silently murder a person on the subway without being detected, you might get away with it too. In fact, your victim might lie there for quite awhile before anyone even tries to help them. While working at a Starbucks, I personally witnessed people stepping over an unconscious and possibly dead woman to get to the cream and sugar.
And you obviously have never killed a chicken. They keep fighting even after they are dead. The rest of the flock screams bloody murder and runs around in hysterics. Your idea of meat production sounds like that Simpsons episode where Homer is Adam and a pig walks up and offers bacon from his side.
“But effective advocacy is one of the reasons why I don’t wear a helmet, or lycra shorts.”
The shorts thing is totally up to you. I wear ’em because I like to go fast and as a recumbent rider it’s all about the aero. YMMV.
But no helmet? How is it effective advocacy to put your skull fracture on display for all those car drivers? You’re welcome to rationalize your behavior in whatever terms you want but don’t call that ‘advocacy.’
And on the other topic, I liken the anti-meat video to the pictures of aborted fetuses the anti-abortion advocates hold up outside abortion clinics. It’s an attempt to bypass your rational process and get a gut reaction. I’m fully aware of the downside of factory meat farming, I don’t need to get grossed out too.
I am not talking about a scale of income I am talking about the LUXURY of being able to be picky and fussy about what you eat.
And yes I’ve killed dozens of chickens and NO they won’t go tearing all over the place if you hold the dead one down. My grandma also taught me a neat little trick of crushing their skulls before the beheading. They don’t flop nearly as long.
“Well, if you silently murder a person on the subway without being detected, you might get away with it too.”
If you walk up to a large gathering of human beings offer them a piece opf cake and shoot the first one that walks up what will the rest of them do? Will anymore of them take you up on another piece of cake?
Cows would…
If you kept people in pens and fed them from troughs, regularly taking a few out to be butchered and processed into meat, the others would keep eating from the trough. If cows were wild, you would have a much harder time getting close enough to kill one, and the rest of them would not stick around to beg for a treat.
I am not saying that cows are as intelligent as people, but if you think that humans don’t act like dumb herd animals in the right circumstances or that other animals have no survival instinct, you have a lot to learn.
If you walk up to a large gathering of human beings offer them a piece opf cake and shoot the first one that walks up what will the rest of them do? Will anymore of them take you up on another piece of cake?
Death or cake!
All of the cows I have killed were free range cattle. Wild as they come. The lure of food was always enough to get them in and keep them in.
They SMELL predators…
I vote this the most scrollable thread evar.
Final Alkon update.
After accusing me of hunting racists where there was no racism I asked and she answered:
So then brian – and I don’t know if you already know this guy, he keeps saying Shalom in inappropriate places – tries to take me to task, and here’s my respone:
sorry sagra.
Homer: Are you saying you’re never going to eat any animal again? What about bacon?
Lisa: No.
Homer: Ham?
Lisa: No.
Homer: Pork chops?
Lisa: Dad, those all come from the same animal.
Homer: Heh heh heh. Ooh, yeah, right, Lisa. A wonderful, magical animal.
I am positive a pig laid an ambush on me one time.
I avoid pork…
Pigs are smart. Besides, they eat people. It seems to be a rule that we don’t eat animals that eat people.
Well, except for alligators. And pigs.
>so the next GOP administration may be properly punished
J, you expect to say shit like this and have credibility? Tell me another fucking fairy tale. Zero fucking accountability, goodbye America, shithole here we come.
Like on an election day?
Did you know chickens will actually line up to have their heads cut off?
Hey, I never said they were particularly bright. On the other hand, if a chicken sees a dog or fox coming its way, it knows enough to try to get away, right? A survival instinct indicates awareness of existence.
Most vegetarians have little but guilt and horror stories to gain recruits with. Tofu doesn’t win anyone over. Meat eaters arguing for responsible meat consumption have a hell of a lot more to argue with. Humanely raised organic bacon is its own argument once you taste it.
If that’s meant for me, you seem to not have really read any of the comments I’ve made. Don’t stereotype me into your preconceived notion of what a vegetarian is or is not. You don’t know me at all.
pedestrian said,
August 13, 2008 at 18:21
Pigs are smart. Besides, they eat people. It seems to be a rule that we don’t eat animals that eat people.
Well, except for alligators. And pigs.
And sharks.
It’s hardwired to the smell. Its pure instinct.
We need a new thread…I am sick of looking at this thuglican’s mugshot.
I could supply a photo from my recent trip to R.I. and L.I., if need be!
As long as we’re anthropomorphizing animals allow me to suggest that their lives are a miserable series of agonies and disappointments and that they would be better off dead.
I’m about ready for a nice shark, tofu and brussels sprouts stir-fry at this point. Mmmmm, tasty.
As long as we’re anthropomorphizing animals allow me to suggest that their lives are a miserable series of agonies and disappointments and that they would be better off dead.
That is only because they are exploited for their labor. If they could run the farm, things would be different.
I vote this the most scrollable thread evar.
Quick, someone offer the thread a piece of cake.
On a positive note, it’s very well positioned to win a Cobb Award, if they’re ever revived.
That is only because they are exploited for their labor. If they could run the farm, things would be different.
HOORAY!
4legzGüd!
The smell of:
onions and garlic in a sautee pan
bacon or sausage sizzling on a campfire with a bucket of coffee boiling on a cold morning by Tenaya lake
A loaf of yeasty bread baking in the oven
A soup or stew simmering on a winter afternoon
These are not things that can be replaced, nor should they be missed.
There are things, small but important things, that are part of what it means to be mikey, alive and living.
I can’t even conceive of not having those things in my life…
mikey
I’m generally bored by meat/veg arguments, but I do have to say I’m amused by the tendency of the meat-eaters in said arguments to bellow about how they ate a whole pig last night and how it was fucking delicious, and now they’re going to go smear suet on their dick and catch a wild turkey, &c.
MzNicky: I’m not saying ANYTHING about you.. I am just talking about how certain arguments come across. And how certain vegetarians come across too. Don’t tell me you havn’t met any that come across as really annoying and holier than thou. They exist. They not only exist, but they shape the popular image of what vegetarianism is about. That is why someone needs to slap some sense into them and re-shape the debate.
It doesn’t really matter if the perception of vegetarianism is inaccurate, or based on the attitudes of a few noisy people, it is still important. I think the whole issue of vegetarianism has to be made part of a wider debate about how we treat our food sources, and the sustainability of food production. If the aim is ethical eating, lets acknowledge the complexity of the issues, and the validity of other peoples decisions.
We have to make thinking about where your food comes from into a normal thing for normal people to do. Screaming “meat is murder” as some do, is counter-productive to that aim. Also, it is far too myopic. My reason for not eating fast food is about what it does to people, societies, economies, animals, and the land itself. The reasons for eating ethically are very very broad. Animal welfare is only a small part of it. Human welfare is a much bigger chunk.
UPDATE: Some people in the comments are accusing me of wanting to use legally shady methods to satisfy my quest for bloody-minded revenge on the Republican Party.
If they’re right, you have become my favoritest website.
On second thought, let us not offer the thread cake. At least until Rugged in Montana chimes in on the food discussion. Then kill it.
And it’s those big brains that now enable us to know that there’s no justification for eating flesh.
Okay, so answer me this: I can’t eat dairy or eggs because I can’t digest them. I can’t derive enough protein from vegetable sources to actually thrive on them — people with a more severe form of the medical condition I have often have to be intubated to keep from starving to death; my digestion is really inefficient, on top of being fairly cranky. I can’t even digest some vegetable sources of protein. Quinoa, for instance, is very high in protein, but gives me some of the worst stomach cramps imaginable. So I basically need to eat meat, if I don’t want to wind up with pellagra.
Is that still all right with you, or are you overgeneralising about the necessity of carnivourousness? Would you like to GFY now, or later?
For what it’s worth, video didn’t bother me; I grew up rural. I was cleaning fish I’d caught by myself before you were even agonising over this ethically.
According to findings in the thread below, a pure vegan diet is necessary to gain the strength required to eliminate the white race. I’m sure The Truth could explain it further, but he seems to have nodded out mid-sentence.
Hang’em by the balls…
That is all.
People taste yummy!
I’m about ready for a nice shark, tofu and brussels sprouts stir-fry at this point. Mmmmm, tasty.
Brussel sprouts? You…you…Frenchman!
I think you mean “Freedomman”.
Is that still all right with you, or are you overgeneralising about the necessity of carnivourousness? Would you like to GFY now, or later?
For what it’s worth, video didn’t bother me; I grew up rural. I was cleaning fish I’d caught by myself before you were even agonising over this ethically.
Whoa. Simmer down there, big guy. You mention vegetarianism and of a sudden everybody’s Grizzly Adams.
If you really want a pissing contest, then I’d say I was probably cleaning fish I’d caught my own self on my grandpa’s farm in Kansas before you were even born. So there. Do I win?
Oh yeah? When I was twelve, I shot Bambi in the neck and dismembered him with my hunting knife!
Actually, that was when I decided to be a vegetarian, so on balance I’m probably a pussy.
I couldn’t catch fish if you threw them at me. Which is why I don’t eat them.
OTOH, I have never dropped a bratwurst.
onions and garlic in a sautee pan
bacon or sausage sizzling on a campfire
A loaf of yeasty bread baking in the oven
A soup or stew simmering on a winter afternoon
These are a few of Mikey’s favourite things…
Lyrics need work.
onions and garlic in a sautee pan
bacon or sausage sizzling on a campfire
A loaf of yeasty bread baking in the oven
A soup or stew simmering on a winter afternoon
…Everybody knows, a turkey and some misteltoe…..
I was the worst hypocrite of them all. My meats… I used preservatives.
Well, I was going to point out stuff about how much energy/resources/land it takes to grow vegetables versus meat, and how factory farms (as opposed to sustainable agriculture) are only economical because they inflict so many externalities, but some people can’t digest eggs, meat, or quinoa and don’t like other nonmeat protein sources. So, hey, might as well stick gazillions of pigs in a cramped and filthy warehouse and then butcher them as quickly and cheaply as possible.
So yeah, some people literally can’t live a healthy life (or would find it “difficult”) without eating meat. But that’s a really, really small number of people and has nothing to do with the ethics of factory farming.
Thank you Doctorb.
Sockpuppet says:
But effective advocacy is one of the reasons why I don’t wear a helmet, or lycra shorts.
Okay, lycra shorts are ridiculous on most people, and those full-body suits are even worse, but not wearing a helmet is just crazy. I ride a bike too, and I wear regular clothes, but the point of a helmet is not to go faster or show how much money you’re willing to spend on doofy bike stuff — it’s to keep your skull from cracking open like a fucking egg.
I say this only because I want you to not get killed in a stupid, pointless way, and also because I like being obnoxious about stuff.
DocB:
I know plenty about the issue. I have ridden motorbikes too, so I know what an effective helmet is like. A bicycle helmet is nearly useless in a high speed impact. They don’t protect the neck, or fit tightly enough to prevent brain damage. At low speeds I will happily take my lumps. Not that I have had a bike accident in traffic yet, or a head injury on a bike ever. I have some experience with how to bail and roll when it goes pear shaped.
Also, I know how to ride. I take an entire lane when I need the room, and only allow people to overtake when it is safe. I never undertake, and don’t filter between two lanes. I take the pavement for roundabouts where it seems judicious. I leave myself more room at junctions, and go as soon as the junction clears to get a good head start. I never run lights.
And funnily enough, I have never felt that I was doing anything in any way dangerous, or even risky. Because responsible riding really ISN’T dangerous. Okay, I live in a land of courteous drivers and low speed limits, so I have it better than some, but still. Ride right and you won’t have problems.
Sock, I hear you. I have seen claims that the statistics about bike helmets are misinterpreted and that drivers are dickier to helmetless riders and all that stuff, but on the other hand I’ve smacked my helmet on the pavement once, so I like the helmet.
I live in a pretty bike-friendly place for the US, but if I took an entire lane on my own, even though that is legal and in fact required when there isn’t a bike lane about two out of three drivers would come as close to me as possible before hitting their horns.