Why do so many people think that it was the campaign that divided the country? We were divided before anyone started their campaigns. We were divided about the Iraq war, and many things even before that.

If opposite sides of the spectrum are going to be able to come together it starts with rational communication.
In the time I have come to this blog, there is no conversing, I keep my cool and get responses like Motherfucker, Asshole, Troll ect. ect. You think that your points gonna get across to me talking like that, no… It just pisses me off of course and makes whatever you say with it obsolete to me.
The biggest issue that got the majority of votes for Bush is morals. No one is impressed with Whoopie Goldberg pointing to her crotch and saying Bush, in fact, I think the American people arent impressed with the “Michael Moores” or celebrity politicans period.
But what I found as I began coming to this blog is intolerance, insults and punky attitudes that would never cause me to want to learn from or listen to anything given to me by such a person.
Anyhow agree with me or not, I just feel that it is a place for you guys to start and if you want to appeal to people and convince them to follow the blue side, I think thats your ticket.

Why anyone thinks it is necessary in a democracy with a diverse culture to come together so badly is a mystery to me. Why should anyone have to convince you Steve C? Is it because if the rest of us don’t stop being uncivil and rude to you, you’ll continue to wreak havoc and revenge on us with endless war, gutting of social programmes and regressive social legislation? That’s sounds like a threat, doesn’t it?

Some democracy.

Quote: Why should anyone have to convince you Steve C?

You absolutly do not, but it isnt going to possibly gain your party a vote from me in the future either.

And using your philosophy, why should the now heavily republican DC care about involving democratic agendas or ideas? That foolish thinking divides the country period, dont blame Bush blame yourself.

I’ll give you an example of what I was saying above. I saw a post on here ripping the southern states because bush won them. So this blogger decided to insult the south by calling them the “banjo” states. What this causes is anger to anyone who comes here from the south and causes them to dislike the democrats more and loses any chance of ever getting their vote. It is a lack of respect and a lack of class.

That voter from the south who comes here who may have voted Kerry that is from the south, you think they would appreciate that and do you think that makes them happy they side with you?

Look it is friendly advice, Its not going to hurt my feelings if the Republican party wins every election for the next 50 years. Believe me.

Holy shit, what a motherfucking asshole troll.

“That voter from the south who comes here who may have voted Kerry that is from the south, you think they would appreciate that and do you think that makes them happy they side with you?”

But you got to give it up: he’s the closest thing to literary perfection the blogosphere is ever likely to see.

I’m not an American. I’m commenting as an outsider on the entirety of American public discourse. As far as I’m concerned, Democratic and Republican…you’re all fucked.

But I find it funny that someone in such a great democracy would make a choice about how he or she is governed to get back at someone who insulted them. Seems like the wrong action to address what happened.

Steve C, you come here and use classic propaganda techniques, state opinion as fact and make stupid unsubstantiated claims about EVERYTHING and expect us to be grateful that you can repeat RNC talking points. You construct no argument for your points of view, back nothing up and prance around like you actually know something. I have asked you to construct a formal argument and have not yet seen it. You’re the stupid fat kid who runs around saying, “I’m the king of the world and you’re all poopy-heads.”

We don’t dislike you because you are a conservative, we dislike you because you are an idiot. You are an idiot. You think thats uncivil? You think I care? I am not civil to idiots, by virute of the fact that they are idiots. Either learn something about argument or keep your faith based fucking statements and self-righteous horseshit to yourself. Dumbfuck.

Norbizness Quote: But you got to give it up: he’s the closest thing to literary perfection the blogosphere is ever likely to see.

Because I put: That voter from the south who comes here who may have voted Kerry that is from the south.

OK I made a typo… Big deal. Are you impressed with yourself because you found an error in my sentance? I dont get it… Your so perfect Norbizness? Or just a legend in your own mind?

Get over it, I might not not be a English teacher, Im strong in math, it dosent make me stupid or anything I say less valid, well so far nothing but punks and insults. Im not impressed and if something as simple as what I said on this thread is that hard for you to understand I’ll expect that my party is going to be in power for a long time and that this country will remain divided by your choice in insulting rather then reaching out.
No self control….it makes you look real intelligent. Id rather mess up in writing then to be a hard headed snotty person anyday.

WKD: Either learn something about argument or keep your faith based fucking statements and self-righteous horseshit to yourself. Dumbfuck.

I hope people like yourself represent your party for a very long time. Believe me I do. 🙂

Steve,

I’m that voter from the South who voted for Kerry and I’m here to tell you, I couldn’t give one damn about someone referring to the South as the “banjo” states. Not insulted. Don’t care. Big. Fucking. Deal.

The state of health care in America is more important to me. The quagmire in Iraq is more important to me. Gays marrying? Go to it and more power to you.

Morals mean nothing when one doesn’t have enough to eat. Morals count for squat when one has no roof over one’s head. The last thing one is concerned about is your neighbor’s morals when you can’t afford to keep your children fed, clothed and sheltered.

You got your “moral values” president. Now show me where this administration has begun to demonstrate an interest in ensuring the American people are adequately cared for.

Steve, I’m not and american and I don’t live in the US.

So you don’t want people who are capable of critical thought and argument in your part of the world?

Who would have thought?

I’m that voter from the South who voted for Kerry and I’m here to tell you, I couldn’t give one damn about someone referring to the South as the “banjo” states. Not insulted. Don’t care. Big. Fucking. Deal.

Nikki, You show support for your state like you do your country, well thats great. good for you!!

Wow, your a lovley bunch of people, best thing you could do for me is be yourselfs so I can be certain to have my choice in goverment for the next 1000 years. Keep up the good work 🙂

Get over it, I might not not be a English teacher

Not an English teacher? Don’t flatter yourself – you’re barely an English speaker.

Get over it, I might not not be a English teacher, -Im strong in math, it dosent make me stupid or anything I say less valid, well so far nothing but punks and insults. Im not impressed and if something as simple as what I said on this thread is that hard for you to understand I’ll expect that my party is going to be in power for a long time and that this country will remain divided by your choice in insulting rather then reaching out.
No self control….it makes you look real intelligent. Id rather mess up in writing then to be a hard headed snotty person anyday.

Actually, you make everything you say less valid, for reasons already entered into. This simple concept seems to be beyond you.

– Wow, your a lovley bunch of people, best thing you could do for me is be yourselfs so I can be certain to have my choice in goverment for the next 1000 years. Keep up the good work 🙂

Haha, I bet Steve dosn’t even know who hes quoting.

WKD: Steve, I’m not and american and I don’t live in the US.

Thank God for that.

WKD: So you don’t want people who are capable of critical thought and argument in your part of the world?

A legend in your own mind WKD thats all you are. You sure compliment yourself alot.

Mit Sicherheit

I dont have anymore time for you people that seriously lack maturity and really believe that you are so wise and especially those from other countries that have nothing to do with this subject. So I conclude this thread with this post and hope that someday mabey a few of you will grow up.

Oh, God…the same old thing. When America goes a-conquerin’, Steve-o, it’s everyone’s business.

Now, can I “conclude” the thread?

Steve- I’m from the south, I voted for Kerry, and I don’t particularly like people calling the South “Banjo states.” But they do, so you know what, I’m going to do my damndest to convince them that their idea of the south is wrong. It’s hard to do that with motherfucking asshole trolls like you though.

Your poor excuse for a come back simply shows the complete lack of critical skills, remarkable ignorance and laughable hubris that has characterised all of your comments on this board. All of your comments are empty, have no substance to them and are nothing other than a recital of things other people have told you. And you’re not even any good at the propaganda game, I already kicked your arse in that too.

It seems all you have left is a childish, sanctimonious position, that you are hard done by, when all you really want is blah blah blah. I’ve asked you to engage in argument, and you have not, and have in fact shown yourself to be incapable of doing so.

Whenever you get called on anything you whine about how you are not good at english, or you just read some stuff or whatever, or ask that we give you a break. Poor baby! You make claims to morality when by your own admission you chose sex over serving your country.

Come on Steve, I’m still waiting for that argument.

Hey everybody, Steve concluded the thread!

Steve, why are we meant to give a fuck?

Come on little boy, step up to the plate, I want that argument. You have confused being mature with tolerating idiots. Not the same thing. You have been called on you bullshit and now runaway rather than backing it up. Fool.

Just how fucked is the US going to be in the next four years?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041104/ap_on_el_pr/bush_24

“There is a certain attitude in the world by some that says that it’s a waste of time to try to promote free societies in parts of the world,” he said, a reference to Iraq (news – web sites) in particular. “I’ve heard that criticism,” he said.

“Remember, I went to London to talk about our vision of spreading freedom throughout the greater Middle East and I fully understand that that might rankle some and be viewed by some as folly.”

Translation: Syria and/or Iran, bitches!

And on the domestic front:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=223596

I have to agree with Steve on this one. For a while, he’s come in here and given what might be described as assenine comments in support of Bush values and presidency. You (and I suppose I did it too) would come back with sound, rational, fact-based arguements. When this did not change his mind, you would bash him as an idiot for not “seeing the light” (or for bad spelling and grammar).

Unfortunately, this is how Democrats appeared to conduct their campaign, as well. They didn’t offer a campaign of solid values, backed up by principles, supported by specific policies. Instead, Kerry and his supporters merely tried to attack the facts as presented by Bush, using logical arguement against Bush’s obscurantism. When this didn’t seem to sway people, his supporters would get frantic and dismissive, declaring their opponents idiots.

This played into Bush’s (or Rove’s) hands. The people are afraid. For those with a better understanding of the world, this fear is completely irrational, so it’s dismissed. But it should not be dismissed, because it’s real, even if the causes are not.

Steve said the biggest issue in this campaign was morals, and he was right. But does that mean Republicans have morals and Democrats do not? Of course not. A regime that would start a war against a country and not flinch when a hundred thousand people were killed hardly has a monopoly on morals. But people don’t relate to that.

They do relate to family: to marriage and children. So Bush makes the election about security for your family, and sanctity of marriage as you’ve always known it, and protection for children, even before they leave the womb. And all democrats can do is bash him as a misogynist troglodyte. By doing so, they alienate all the people who may be willing to accept change, but are uncomfortable with it, especially in a time of fear.

These people were reachable, but Bush reached them with security and values, and when the Democrats merely attacked those values, they all circled the wagons.

Steve C. wrote, “I dont have anymore time for you people that seriously lack maturity and really believe that you are so wise and especially those from other countries that have nothing to do with this subject”
I’m going to hold you to that. If it keeps you the hell away, Bush’s victory was almost worthwhile.

As a reminder, here are a few examples of Steve C’s maturity and “rational communication” (all spelling and grammar errors in the original):
“I just post here cause you people to me are twisted and I enjoy stirring you up” (Why do they keep calling me a troll?!!!)
“Now tell me Osamma isnt on your side”
“He sounds just like you guys and he fits right in with you”
“WELL WELL WELL, what a shocker that Bin Laden is just like you people.”
“Liberals have conspiricy on the brain all the time”

(Sorry none of the quotes included his favorite debating point, “Ha”.)

“Kerry and his supporters merely tried to attack the facts as presented by Bush, using logical arguement against Bush’s obscurantism”

And this is wrong because…? In your opinion, they should have used the same weapons as the Republicans, i.e. lies, smears and demagoguery?

No, but when logical argument wasn’t working, it was not useful to call half the American people idiots. They’re not. They may be somewhat ignorant and afraid, but they’re not idiots, and they don’t like being ridiculed and dismissed as idiots any more than you would.

Better alternatives can be found on the Rockridge Institute’s website: http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org.

(Will somebody PLEASE tell me how to post a link here so it doesn’t have to be copied and pasted?!?)

So we should’ve called them ignorant rather than idiots. Got it.

OT, you post links using HTML. Like this:

Rockridge Institute

It should appear like this:

Rockridge Institute

Sorry, the command doesn’t seem to work.

Mojo Quote:

As a reminder, here are a few examples of Steve C’s maturity and “rational communication”
…………….

Hardly a match for what has been thrown at me here, would’nt you say?? Can you find the post where I tell you to Fuck off asshole, or perhaps the one where I say that you are all dumbfucks?

If you dont think I want to say that to some of you, then your wrong, but the difference is I have class and self-control. I have a hard time being convinced that most of you are even 18 or over, honestly.

What tortured language! That piece is a jewel.

I think the editor should be equipped with a bullhorn, sent out into the town square, and made to read that piece in long rolling tones.

-When this did not change his mind, you would bash him as an idiot for not “seeing the light” (or for bad spelling and grammar).

Nothing to do with him not changing his mind, and everything to do with him thinking that his bullshit passed as fact and not meeting anything like the criterion for debate, and then hypocritically accusing us of the same. He got flamed because he repeatedly failed to back anything up, or present any sort of argument beyond ‘you people’. And then he complained about it. Like a little child.

Thats why he got flamed.

-Hardly a match for what has been thrown at me here, would’nt you say?? Can you find the post where I tell you to Fuck off asshole, or perhaps the one where I say that you are all dumbfucks?

-If you dont think I want to say that to some of you, then your wrong, but the difference is I have class and self-control. I have a hard time being convinced that most of you are even 18 or over, honestly.

You have no class Steve.

You turn up here and present bandwagon arguments, appeals to authority and opinion stated as fact. These are the M.O. of a child. You also equate us all here to a sociopathic mass murderer. You do not even have the class to qualify all of this as your own opinion, and then enter into a discussion as to the root of your beliefs. Rather, you simply state that this is the gospel truth, because you have said so. Once again, the approach of a child. When asked to enter into argument by presenting your own formally, you ask that we ‘give you a break’ and that ‘english is not your strong point’, as if for some reason we would forget everything and welcome you into the fold. Once again, the approach of a child. You then continue as before, apparently hoping that no-one had noticed, also, again, like a child. You get flamed. You complain about this, steadfastly ignoring the fact that you brought this on yourself, and the reasons why it is happening. Not your fault, everyone is picking on you. Everyone is a big meanie. ‘You people’ are being immature. This inability to link cause and effect is once again the hallmark of a child. Then you whine again, apparently thinking this time we give a fuck, and we are going to feel sorry for you, or care about you opinion.

I think you are perhaps a teenager in a conservative family, because you believe that making statements makes truth, and you seem to be repeating what your parents told you. It dosn’t work that way in the real world. If you can’t handle that, fuck off.

No WKD, not flamed, theres no getting into any issues with most of you to discuss views. You are way to immature for me to even want to desire to reach that point with you. I didnt come here to debate with people from other countries and especially with punks like yourself that are so hung up on how clever and smart they believe they are that it makes no difference what anyone says either way.
What you “Flamed” is nothing…What you BELIEVE you “Flamed” is everything. You are your biggest hero WKD.

WKD: I think you are perhaps a teenager in a conservative family, because you believe that making statements makes truth, and you seem to be repeating what your parents told you. It dosn’t work that way in the real world. If you can’t handle that, fuck off.
………………………….

If I was still a teenager I would tell you, Fuck off you liberal pussy, Your a stupid motherfucker you punk ass little bitch.

But…. I grew up

-No WKD, not flamed, theres no getting into any issues with most of you to discuss views. You are way to immature for me to even want to desire to reach that point with you. I didnt come here to debate with people from other countries and especially with punks like yourself that are so hung up on how clever and smart they believe they are that it makes no difference what anyone says either way.
What you “Flamed” is nothing…What you BELIEVE you “Flamed” is everything. You are your biggest hero WKD.

And you are a midget Steve. See now, thats the point. You came here in order to prance around and drop your shit you thought that we would somehow be impressed. You just said this above. Apparently this is maturity in your book. Interesting defintion. You got called. You couldn’t back it up. You got flamed. And then you whined, just like you did in the last post, after you admitted that you only came here to aggrivate people. You complain that we are insulting you, forgetting that you came here to do the same to us. You just admitted this above. I gave you a chance Steve, and you blew it. I know I am getting into your weak little head Steve, because every second post of yours is a plea for understanding. You can’t take it, you’ve already broken, which is why you are still here, complaining about your treatment. You do care Steve, and you keep telling us so. You can’t cut this shit boy, so my advice is go back home to your Action Man.

-If I was still a teenager I would tell you, Fuck off you liberal pussy, Your a stupid motherfucker you punk ass little bitch.

-But…. I grew up

Into my bitch, Steve.

No, but when logical argument wasn’t working, it was not useful to call half the American people idiots. They’re not.

I dunno. It seems to me that “someone on whom logical argument does not work” is a pretty good working definition of an idiot.

Only logical based on your (and my) assumptions about the world. If you hold different assumptions, then equally sound logic will produce a very different conclusion.

The point is, instead of berating people holding different assumptions, trying to beat them over the head with “the truth”, why not look for the common ground? For example, Democrats are no more in favour of abortions, and are just as committed to the family, as Republicans. But Democrats believe that the way to end abortion is to look to the causes (rape, incest, unprotected sex), not merely punish the act. And they believe that a strong family, whether it be a straight family or a gay family, is the basis of a strong nation.

I’m putting words into Democrats mouths here; I have no inside knowledge. But I would suspect it’s true.

The point is, Bush put up the red flag of the anti-abortionists, and the Democrats charged. They screamed about protecting the rights of a woman to control her own body, but said nothing about a better future in which abortions are rarely if ever necessary.

The point is that to win, the Democrats needed to build bridges to the people on “the other side”, and they didn’t do it.

Damn, keep forgetting to add my name…

And I still don’t know how to post links. Thanks Nikki, but what’s the html command for posting links?

Use [a href=”http://link.to.site”]Underlined text[/a], and replace the brackets with the less than and greater than operators above the comma and periods on your keyboard.

I belong to a leftish political party north of your border. We have our own internal list server, and I’m going to copy and paste one of the postings that I think is somewhat pertinant to this debate. It regards a suggestion I had made to reach out to religious groups. (We are far, far less religious as a society up here, which may be the most telling difference between the U.S. and us.) Here’s the post:

“I wonder where the CCF-NDP would be today if Woodsworth, Caldwell,
Douglas, Knowles, and Lewis had followed this piece of brilliant advice?
Imagine how far the civil rights movement in the US would have gone
without Martin Luther King, Jr. and the enormous support from Southern
black churches or Northern white synagogues.

The implication that faith or faith-based politics is inherently hostile
to progressive politics is frankly nuts. While Canada is not remotely
as religious – these days – as the United States, our party was founded
and sustained by progressive religious traditions from a variety of
religions, most notably the Social Gospel. We would be fools to ignore
or repudiate what has consistently been one of the main wellsprings of
our party’s mass appeal.

More fundamental, every great religion has at its core a profound
commitment to social justice and human equality. Has there ever been a
more compelling or evocative call for socialism than the Sermon from the
Mount? The fact that the nutters of the right, regardless of religion,
keep trying to appropriate faith in the service of injustice and
oppression is no reason for us to accede.

Religiously motivated progressives are among the staunchest and most
ardent defenders of progressive politics more generally. Alienating
them or implying that faith and progressive politics are somehow
incompatible is not only deeply divisive, it virtually assures that the
right will seek to imply that faith mandates reactionary politics. More
than anything else, conceding faith to the right would guarantee that
secular politics and culture will come under increasing siege”

Rockridge Institute

Hey, it worked…

By the way, the post about the CCF-NDP was mine.

All the people mentioned (Douglas, etc.) were leaders of the party. Tommy Douglas was the “father of medicare here”, as well as a Christian minister. He was also the grandfather of Keifer Sutherland, just to drop a name or two…

Oops!

My post about the role of religion was missing a bit at the beginning. The quoted text should have started here:

“> Our outreach to religious groups should be indirect and strictly through
> the appeal of our secular values that might speak to their own religious
> ones.

I wonder where the CCF-NDP would be today if Woodsworth, Caldwell,
Douglas, Knowles, and Lewis had followed this piece of brilliant advice?
Imagine how far the civil rights movement in the US would have gone
without Martin Luther King, Jr. and the enormous support from Southern
black churches or Northern white synagogues.”

Sorry for the confusion!

And I forgot to add my name again…

My position is that a professional writer should know better than to put a colon after a verb, such as is. If Sr. Biddle should get canned for anything, it’s punctuation abuse.

Sheesh.

Nikel, your posts don’t even apply to Steve. As of yet he has not produced any sort of logical argument at all. By his own admission he came here to insult people. I gave him a chance. He blew it. Then he ate it. Oh well.

http://img103.exs.cx/img103/4526/exit_poll.gif

“This chart makes the trend obvious. In states with paper ballots and audit trails, the exit polls accurately predicted the vote results. In states using electronic machines, the vote results were distorted in favor of Bush.”

source – http://www.whatreallyhappened.com

WKD: I gave him a chance. He blew it. Then he ate it. Oh well.

1. I do not care what someone from another country thinks.

2. You gave me a chance? Perhaps you have forgotten, my side won.

3. I have found a few people that are rational enough to hold a conversation here, you are not one of them.

Furthermore… Why in the world would I want to insult someone that comes back to me with juvinile replies like dumbfuck and asshole??

Hmmm.. Its beyond me how I couldnt be impressed with such intelligent language. Yet, I am the one that is uneducated and a child? Now thats funny. 🙂

AAA QUOTE: This chart makes the trend obvious. In states with paper ballots and audit trails, the exit polls accurately predicted the vote results. In states using electronic machines, the vote results were distorted in favor of Bush.”

Yep aaa, that right, The Bush supporters slipped over 3 1/2 million votes right by everyone. Hmmmm

The biggest issue that got the majority of votes for Bush is morals.
How exactly is the coke-snorting, deserter, drunken driving convicted, lied us into war, election stealing, bombed the women and children who were not behind 9/11, Republican the “moral candidate?”

I’m not sure about the Drunk Driving conviction, if he did, big deal, everyone makes mistakes. Dosent make himn not moral cause he might have whooped it up once or twice when he was young.
And as for the rest.. pure speculation and opinion I’m sorry to say.

Steve, why are you still posting here?

Mainly just getting answers SED. I began the thread trying to be nice and it all went downhill from there. Trying to spark some unity I guess, trying to convince myself that not all of you are hateful people… Oh well. I guess basicly I’m looking into this theory of why the country is dividing and its becoming more and more clear to me why.
When I want answers I look at both sides (I’m discussing this issue on GOP blogs as well), I dont like get all my information from one side. Anyhow, thats what I’m doing here. Hope your doing ok.

-1. I do not care what someone from another country thinks.

You do, because you keep coming back and telling me so. And not being American hasn’t stopped me from pullling you apart. Your nationality dosn’t count for much it seems.

-2. You gave me a chance? Perhaps you have forgotten, my side won.

Not what I was talking about and you know it. Whats that, I believe its called a straw man? I gave you a chance to engage in the debate, and you whined and declined, and made pleas for understanding, and then continued as you were doing before, which by your own admission was insulting and ‘stirring’. So whoever won the US election is in fact irrelevant because its a different topic altogether. As you know. You are merely trying to divert attention from your lies, hypocrisy dishonesty and lack of mental ability.

How very dishonest of you Steve.

-3. I have found a few people that are rational enough to hold a conversation here, you are not one of them.

By your own admission you did not come here to engage in debate Steve, you came here to aggrivate and insult people. You said this yourself. As such, it makes you completely hypocritical to then accuse other people of being irrational, and then try to take any sort of moral high ground in the situation. As previously mentioned, I asked to you engage in the debate, and you did not. You merely continued with what you were doing before, which by your own admission was insulting and aggrivating people.

When you were called on this you whined and changed the subject. And denied everything.

-Furthermore… Why in the world would I want to insult someone that comes back to me with juvinile replies like dumbfuck and asshole??

Because by your own admission thats what you came here to do. Now you are trying to re-invent yourself yet again to escape the terms of the situation. This is incredibly dishonest of you Steve, and you are an incredibly dishonest person. As mentioned, you are a little child who believes denying things changes them.

-Hmmm.. Its beyond me how I couldnt be impressed with such intelligent language. Yet, I am the one that is uneducated and a child? Now thats funny. 🙂

What makes you think I was trying to impress you? I am showing the level of contempt I have for you and people like yourself, that is, intellectually dishonest and hypocritical people who deny any sort of responsiblity for anything they do, much like a child. You are incapable of engaging in the debate, as you yourself have shown, and in fact, said (‘give me a break’ and ‘english is not my strong point’. You don’t have any strong points Steve, and you keep showing us this). You came here only to insult and aggrivate, as you yourself have admitted. Then, forgetting that you told us this, you try to claim some sort of high ground when you further continue to refuse to engage and subsequently get flamed.

You are the uneducated one, and also the ignorant one. When this is demonstrated when you plea for understanding, get upset that everyone is picking on you and then do it again. I cannot comprehend that anyone would have such a dishonest and hypocritical fashion, unless they very young, which is what I suspect you are. You certainly do not demonstrate the self-awareness that most adults do.

So now Steve is in his cycle again, trying to divert attention from his dishonesty and hypocrisy by attempting to gain some sort of qudos by claiming some sort of high ground. Tapping away with his one-fingered typing skills. I have no problem abusing you Steve. If you were actually an adult you would realise that the place that swearing holds in the adult world is to demonstrate that the subject is not entitled to the social regard that other adults are. That subject is you dumb fuck. Get the picture, motherfucker?

You’re still my bitch Steve.

Slightly On Topic: The Indy Star looks kinda like one of those “owner-influenced” endorsements. The Chicago Tribune’s quoted McCain at the convention to represent Bush. Very lame indeed.

Steve–you sure make for longer threads, but you spend half the time repeating how offended you are by people’s use of language. Meanwhile, you butcher our common tongue mercilessly. You should be ashamed to represent your side when so many folks here are writing better English as a third language, including the colorful argot.
.

I couldn’t read all the comments, to see if anyone else has heard of this:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041105/ap_on_el_pr/edwards_future

I just had to hurry on over here and tell everyone.

We’ve got four years to pump this guy up!

WKD- You came here only to insult and aggrivate, as you yourself have admitted

OK now I’ll be like you- That’s AGGRAVATE Mr. literacy expert and perfect writer. 🙂

Steve–you sure make for longer threads, but you spend half the time repeating how offended you are by people’s use of language. Meanwhile, you butcher our common tongue mercilessly. You should be ashamed to represent your side when so many folks here are writing better English as a third language, including the colorful argot.

I would rather not be able to write at all then to think and act like you people. You must be so full of hatred to talk the way you people do, which in turn tells me your pretty miserable.

I dont need to lash out with “colorful” language cause you live and create your own misery then blame the world or in most cases the US president for your lack of happiness.

I used to think like you people when I was a teenager, then I gained wisdom. Theres a saying that goes…

If your 30 or under and you are not a liberal you dont have a heart, if your 30 or over and are a liberal you dont have a brain.

You must be so full of hatred to talk the way you people do, which in turn tells me your pretty miserable.

Then why hang around such hateful and miserable people such as ourselves?

Unless you actively seek out such people to derive pleasure from their misery and hate… which we all know that good-hearted, decent people are apt to do.

Its not the hate I seek out, In fact it sickens me. I’m digging around here to see how many decent rational people I can find, to further define to myself what a modern Liberal really is all about. Without much success might I add.

-OK now I’ll be like you- That’s AGGRAVATE Mr. literacy expert and perfect writer. 🙂

In error again Steve, I have never pointed out your spelling or grammatical mistakes. I have pointed out your lack of argument/fact/substance/intelligence etc. You are mistaking me for other people. This is once again an example of your trying to change the subject and divert attention. You have addressed none of my critique.

Regardless, when it comes to language, grammar is more important than spelling. So that was pretty lame on your behalf. And, once again, hypocritical.

-I would rather not be able to write at all then to think and act like you people. You must be so full of hatred to talk the way you people do, which in turn tells me your pretty miserable.

You can’t write at all Steve, but how exactly do you mean? Because you are the individual who admits that they came here to insult and aggravate people. By your own admission. This once again makes you hypocritical and dishonest.

-I dont need to lash out with “colorful” language cause you live and create your own misery then blame the world or in most cases the US president for your lack of happiness.

Thats nice Steve, because neither do I. I use ‘colouful’ language because you are not worthy of respect, as I have already explicity stated, for reasons I have explicitly stated. I am demonstrating how much regard I don’t have for you, once again for reasons already stated. This seems to imply that your reading comprehension skills are seriously lacking.

-I used to think like you people when I was a teenager, then I gained wisdom. Theres a saying that goes…

-If your 30 or under and you are not a liberal you dont have a heart, if your 30 or over and are a liberal you dont have a brain.

And of course, saying something makes it true. Steve once again dazzles us with the brilliance of his critical mind.

The cycle has started again. You are once again addressing none of the points that I have raised, you are merely trying to divert attention away from yourself. You were invited to the debate and have simply continued to insult people, which is of course your explicitly stated intent. Then, hypocritically, you seek to take some sort of moral high ground. Again. You are nothing if not consistant, even if it is in fact consistantly stupid.

So there you go.

You have been refuted and shown to be severely lacking in pretty much everything. I expect you to simply continue in your attention seeking. Notice that you haven’t addressed any of my points, you simply continue as before, you simply change the subject and continue in the predicted fashion.

You are hypocritical. You are intellectually dishonest. You are by your own definition immature, as also previously proven. You readily admit this as well.

You my bitch Steve.

-Its not the hate I seek out, In fact it sickens me. I’m digging around here to see how many decent rational people I can find, to further define to myself what a modern Liberal really is all about. Without much success might I add.

You are also lying here Steve. Your previously stated intention is to come here and ‘stir’ up liberals. What a remarkable degree of cognitive dissonance and dishonesty you display Steve, and yet you claim moral superioty.

And you my bitch Steve.

For those that hate me, you need not worry about me for long, once I have determined that there can be no speaking rationaly to your kind I will no longer be visiting.

But it would be unfair for me not to give the Liberal scene a fair amount of time before coming to conclusion that you all act and respond in the ways I have seen thus far.

This is why I dont take time to make arguments with most people here who like to convince themselfs it is because I dont have an argument, I just dont see any reason to push an issue with someone who dosent even have self-control, WKD for example, the most hate filled person here who isnt out to examine issues and differences, he is simply here to lash out in misery and nothing more.

There is no reasoning with someone like that, I have been around long enough to know this and I find no reason or desire to waste much time on such people.

I assume that I will give it another couple of days then give up. I’m not having much success in finding civilized people here.

And by civilized I do not mean someone that agrees with me, but someone who can disagree with me without having to throw in juvenile hate statements or insults.

By the insults I have been givin by most here I would think this was a spell check / punctuation blog rather then one based on political debate.

Fine some of you might write better then me and might spell better, dosent mean Im stupid or my thoughts do not count, I know for a fact I could destroy all of you in mathematics but Im sure not going to think that just because Im better at that subject then you that you all are stupid, that is just plain ignorant.

Something for you literacy geniuses to ponder.

Yes WKD before the election I did come here to have a little fun and stir you guys up. Big deal, I didnt curse at you, I simply had some fun before the election and I did it alone against all of you, certainly giving all of you the advantage.

WKD QUOTE: I expect you to simply continue in your attention seeking.

Dont flatter yourself, I seek no attention from you. As I said above Im here to find someone rational, you do not fall into that category so there’s no need for you to say anything to me, ignore me. I’m not here to talk to you. When I want attention I cuddle up with my girlfriend or go visit with my friends. Attention is certainly not something I am lacking.

-For those that hate me, you need not worry about me for long, once I have determined that there can be no speaking rationaly to your kind I will no longer be visiting.

Hypocrite. As you have yourself stated you did not come here to be rational. You came to aggitate and aggravate.

Liar.

-But it would be unfair for me not to give the Liberal scene a fair amount of time before coming to conclusion that you all act and respond in the ways I have seen thus far.

As above. You didn’t come here to be rational. You have told us this yourself. You are incredibly dishonest, in the same manner that a child is dishonest when caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

-This is why I dont take time to make arguments with most people here who like to convince themselfs it is because I dont have an argument, I just dont see any reason to push an issue with someone who dosent even have self-control, WKD for example, the most hate filled person here who isnt out to examine issues and differences, he is simply here to lash out in misery and nothing more.

Wrong. I exercised self control and asked you to join the debate. On your refusal and continuing hypocrisy I smacked you around the head. I am not hate filled, and have explicitly stated this. I hold you in contempt, contempt that you earned by refusing to join the debate and continuing in your stated intent of insulting and aggravating other people on this board.

Liar.

You are merely mentioning to me as I spent the most time refuting your bullshit and showing you to be intellectually hypocritical and dishonest. You have not yet been able to counter my posts with anything other than assanine remarks and childish whining and attention seeking.

-There is no reasoning with someone like that, I have been around long enough to know this and I find no reason or desire to waste much time on such people.

Liar. I asked you to join in with a formal argument. You specificallly stated that you did not come here to reason, you came here to ‘stir up liberals’, your own words. Then you asked me to give you a break, and that ‘english is not my strong point’. Your own words.

-I assume that I will give it another couple of days then give up. I’m not having much success in finding civilized people here.

-And by civilized I do not mean someone that agrees with me, but someone who can disagree with me without having to throw in juvenile hate statements or insults.

Liar. As you stated that you did not come here to debate. *I specifically asked you personally* to join in with formal argument. All of this ground has been covered before. You are simply trying to weasel out of the grave you have dug yourself. Unsuccessfully I might add.

It seems to me also that this is some kind of emotional ‘oh poor me’ guilt trip. Once again, much like a child. A whining and spoilt child.

-By the insults I have been givin by most here I would think this was a spell check / punctuation blog rather then one based on political debate.

Childish whining again. Grow up Steve.

-Fine some of you might write better then me and might spell better, dosent mean Im stupid or my thoughts do not count, I know for a fact I could destroy all of you in mathematics but Im sure not going to think that just because Im better at that subject then you that you all are stupid, that is just plain ignorant.

-Something for you literacy geniuses to ponder.

I am a first year engineering student and former computer science student. I am top in my class for maths and physics, and in fact tutor my classmates. I have not doubt as to my mathematical ability and have demonstrated my grasp of logic in this thread. Logic that is essential to mathematical ability and logic that you have neither countered nor demonstrated. If you could best me in maths, then it would be only through greater exposure to content through time.

I can’t make out the rest of that paragraph, but I am assuming you mean that knowledge in one area dosn’t mean that one is not ignorant in another. Of course it dosn’t. But this is a political blog. So why the fuck do we care if you can count? You are simply trying to change the subject, divert attention and claw back some self-esteem.

So there is nothing for us to ponder really.

-Yes WKD before the election I did come here to have a little fun and stir you guys up. Big deal, I didnt curse at you, I simply had some fun before the election and I did it alone against all of you, certainly giving all of you the advantage.

Once again you admit it. And you can insult people grievously without swearing at them. And you did. And you set out to do so. I specifically gave you a chance Steve. And you pissed on it. And then you complain about the treatment you received because of that. And you can suck my dick. You complain because you set out to have fun at other peoples expense and had it turned back on your own dumb self. Grow the fuck up.

You my bitch Steve.

You my bitch Steve.

WKD QUOTE: And you can suck my dick

By that statement and as much as you like to call me your bitch, I have no other choice then to assume you are gay.

Sorry WKD I dont swing your way I have a girlfriend, but good luck to you 🙂

I don’t hate you, man. I think you honestly want to know the truth. We all do. But take some advice from someone who grew up in the Bible Belt South in the early 60’s and who saw firsthand the hypocrisy of self-proclaimed God-fearing Christians. I’ve never heard or seen such hatred and contempt spewed forth against people of color, people with different religious beliefs, people from a different part of the same country (damn Yankees). They all considered themselves “good” Christians, even including members of my own family. They mouthed the same platitudes we’re hearing every day from George Bush. And that oldtime hatred is spewing again. Read Frank Pastore’s comments in the LA Times.
http://tinyurl.com/6bo2f
You are not going to learn the truth from them, Steve.

-Dont flatter yourself, I seek no attention from you. As I said above Im here to find someone rational, you do not fall into that category so there’s no need for you to say anything to me, ignore me. I’m not here to talk to you. When I want attention I cuddle up with my girlfriend or go visit with my friends. Attention is certainly not something I am lacking.

You do, you look for response and plea for understanding when you get it, as I have previously shown. In the same way a child does, as I have previously shown. And once again you lie about the reasons you came here. You have contradicted yourself within the space of three posts. You then proceed to tell me about your personal life, in the belief that I am interested in your personal life, looking for some kind of response to it. I don’t give a fuck about your personal life. Stop seeking attention.

You have refuted nothing that I have said.

You my bitch, Steve.

-By that statement and as much as you like to call me your bitch, I have no other choice then to assume you are gay.

-Sorry WKD I dont swing your way I have a girlfriend, but good luck to you 🙂

Its not gay if you don’t take it Steve, and if I was, whats your point? You say this like being homosexual is something bad. Retreating into homophobia are we Steve? Yes, you are. You are now also trying to divert attention from yourself, as I predicted you would. How predictable of you.

You my bitch Steve.

I will check that out SED, personally I’m not much into religion, I am spiritual (Native American), I’m actually a minority here in the US. I dont agree with everything George W Bush does believe me, but I do feel safer with him and after having lost a friend in the WTC I am all for him going after the terrorists and I like the tax cuts I have made alot more on my paycheck since he has been around. Anyhow, thanks for pointing me in a direction to see why you feel the way that you do.

-I think you honestly want to know the truth.

SED, he has consistantly proven that he does not, both through word and deed.

WKD QUOTE: You say this like being homosexual is something bad. Retreating into homophobia are we Steve?

WKD the king of assumption, One of my best friends is a gay black guy named Warren, very cool guy and one of the funniest people I have ever known. Now let’s see how much more we can assume shall we?

WKD I am bored with you, how about miding your own business and letting me talk to someone here that obviously knows how to communicate. Thank You

WKD I am bored with you, how about minding your own business and letting me talk to someone here that obviously knows how to communicate. Thank You

-WKD the king of assumption, One of my best friends is a gay black guy named Warren, very cool guy and one of the funniest people I have ever known. Now let’s see how much more we can assume shall we?

Yeah, some of your best friends are gay, Steve. And black too!

You my bitch, Steve.

WKD- I’m through talking to you, make your remarks all you want you will be rewarded with no reply.

Mainly just getting answers SED. I began the thread trying to be nice and it all went downhill from there

Blithely dismissing facts that differ from your world view isn’t being nice.

Bush’s desertion is a matter of record.
Bush’ drunk driving conviction is a matter of record.
Bush’s lies to invade Iraq are a matter of record.
The 100,000 civilians Bush killed in Iraq who had nothing to do with 9/11 are a matter of record.

Your well earned sobriquet of being a troll is because of your refusal to believe anything that isn’t spewed by that Oxycontin addict, Rush Limbaugh.

-WKD I am bored with you, how about minding your own business and letting me talk to someone here that obviously knows how to communicate. Thank You

Liar. You have not been able to refute anything I have said. Your stated intention has been to ‘stir up liberals’, your own words. Now, when shown to be dishonest and hypocritical and childish, amongst other things, you are start simply trying to claw back some sort of high ground, pretending that you came here for debate and argument all along (in contratdiction of your previous posts) and that you are being picked on, in order to avoid further disection. Way to go Steve, now I can add spineless to your list of proven traits.

I asked you, personally and specifically, to join in the debate Steve. You pissed on it. And here you go again, as I predicted you would. Predictable again.

You my bitch Steve.

I dont listen to Rush George.

-WKD- I’m through talking to you, make your remarks all you want you will be rewarded with no reply.

Ha ha ha ha. As I said above. You have been shown to be a hypocrite, a dishonest and snivelling little nothing of a person. You have been able to refute nothing that I have said, and have merely behaved in ways that I predicted you would. And, predictably, the only way you can respond is through denial, exemplified in the above quote. You are again trying to make like it is my fault that you have refused to engage in debate, that it is my fault that you have been refuted, that it is my fault that you can’t respond to my critique, and that it is my fault you can’t handle the shit that you willingly brought upon yourself.

You my bitch, Steve.

-Blithely dismissing facts that differ from your world view isn’t being nice.

Admitting you came here to troll and then denying the fact isn’t being nice.

To George:

Bush’s lies to invade Iraq are a matter of record.

That’s opinion. I certainly would’nt put it past Saddam to have WMD, just cause they werent found dosent mean he didnt have them or move them into Syria before they were found. I share that opinion with the president.
………………………………………..

Bush’s desertion is a matter of record

Can you show me this record? Not an article about it, the record.
…………………………………………

The 100,000 civilians Bush killed in Iraq who had nothing to do with 9/11 are a matter of record.

This is something I have no evidence of being that most of Saddams soldiers dressed in civilians clothing during the war to confuse the US soldiers.
And I do realize that innocents have died, But I see alot of terrorists in Iraq to this day, no reason for a sicko like Saddam not to support terrorism and I’m not to happy with all the civilians here that were killed by terrorists including a friend of mine either. So excuse me if I have a hard time being sympothetic about that. They delared war on us, not us on them the way that I see it. And I also know that Bush intends to hand the country back to them after they are Liberated, if he dosent, I will hate Bush then too.
………………………………………..

Bush’ drunk driving conviction is a matter of record.

Yes it is, back in 1976- Shame on him.

I did a few dumb things when I was young too.
………………………………………..

I did a few dumb things when I was young too.

I was a grownup when I was 30.

OK s.z your vast wisdom at 30 exceeds many people.

The fact is, a mistake made once a long time ago is no grounds on why he should’nt be president nor would I judge ANYBODY for having one DWI. Mabey if he did it while he was president we would have something there s.z

And I do realize that innocents have died, But I see alot of terrorists in Iraq to this day, no reason for a sicko like Saddam not to support terrorism and I’m not to happy with all the civilians here that were killed by terrorists including a friend of mine either. So excuse me if I have a hard time being sympothetic about that. They delared war on us, not us on them the way that I see it. And I also know that Bush intends to hand the country back to them after they are Liberated, if he dosent, I will hate Bush then too.

They were innocents but terrorists, who deserved getting killed because even though they were innocent they were terrorists, and even if they didn’t do what they got killed for, they deserved to die. And Bush will give them back their own country after invading it because even though they didn’t attack us and innocents died, they were terrorists.

What can I say but, well, fuck you, you goddamn incoherent racist moron.

Twisty Twisty Thersites ,

I did not say that the innocents “deserved” to die Nor would I ever think such a thing… I said theres no evidence that the 100,000 number given to me were all “innocents” because they dresses in civilan clothing as Saddams rotten cowardly plan.
Its my understanding that alot of these Iraqis are pretty thankful that we are Liberating them seeing that over 100,000 of them are being trained by us (willingly) and I have seen plenty in news coverage that are very thankful (no not insurgents).

And heres the bottom line…

I feel very bad that civilian casulties happen but I feel worse watching them tortured and killed by a psycho dictator who is amused and impowered by it. At least these civilans casulties are’nt in vain and are for a cause of giving thier families and future generations freedom.

So call me racist all you want for me hoping that Iraqi people can have freedom, but it wont make much sense…

Also, I guarentee that Saddam would have “purposely”

Also, I guarentee that Saddam would have “purposely”

Twisty Twisty Thersites
This is more of you trying to be nice, Steve?

Also, I guarentee that Saddam would have “purposely”

Saddam would have purposely what? Cause you to misspell guarantee? Cause you to double post? Cause you to not complete a sentence much less a coherent thought?

It wouldnt let me do more then one line earlier for some reason George, So I gave up on it. If it works now, what I was going to say is…

Also, I guarentee that Saddam would have “purposely” killed way more people then who are killed as casulties in thier Liberation and if they were not killed they would be the lucky ones to just be thrown in one of Saddams torture chambers or rape rooms.

You twisted what I said thats why I said twisty twisty.

Its hardly mean and hardly matches – What can I say but, well, fuck you, you goddamn incoherent racist moron. And you know it…

Yes I made typos and spelling errors, Get over it already. That the best you can do on a response to the issue is point out errors in the writing ? Seems thats most of your strongest points in politics to me so far.

I’m sorry you feel bad because innocent people have to die Steve. It’s must be sad to feel bad.

It mighty white of you though, expressing your obviously heartfelt emotions for the, how shall I say? less “beige” folks. You know what I’m saying?

Sure you do.

-I did not say that the innocents “deserved” to die Nor would I ever think such a thing… I said theres no evidence that the 100,000 number given to me were all “innocents” because they dresses in civilan clothing as Saddams rotten cowardly plan.
Its my understanding that alot of these Iraqis are pretty thankful that we are Liberating them seeing that over 100,000 of them are being trained by us (willingly) and I have seen plenty in news coverage that are very thankful (no not insurgents).

Re: The Lancet. Said article was reviewed by the editorial board four or five times, and still passed muster. Said article was based on scientific statistical methods, that passed muster. Said article also stated that most casualties were due to air strikes. Regarding precision bombing, only the targeting is precise. The blast radius of a 500lb bomb in a densely populated urban area is exactly and deliberately the opposite. Ditto for 155mm counterfire.

Most casualties reported in this study were women and children.

Civilians now have 58 times the pre-war chance of dying through violence.

There is some debate over the size of the sample used in the study, but thats about it. The US has never bothered counting casualties, which is something I have always found interesting.

Also, according to the UN, anyone fighting a foriegn occupation cannot be called a terrorist. Most countries agree with this definition. The US had no legal definition of the term last time I heard. Funny that.

-but I feel worse watching them tortured and killed by a psycho dictator

Which is why you complain about all the other dictators the US supports.

Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the Uzbeks….

-They delared war on us

No, they, didn’t. The US declared war on Iraq.

And sundry other factual inaccuracies.

It mighty white of you though, expressing your obviously heartfelt emotions for the, how shall I say? less “beige” folks. You know what I’m saying?

Sure you do.
……………….

Surly I do Laura, I’m a Chippewa Indian.

Keep this up and we can talk WKD. No cocky statements and I think thats cool.

I said PSYCHO Dictator, I dont see Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or the Uzbeks killing thier own people in mass quantites, having torture chambers and rape rooms.

No, they, didn’t. The US declared war on Iraq.

Yes I realize this, It was made clear the US is taking the fight to the terrorists and if any countries harbored them, we would come knocking.
I dont expect now Liberated Afghanistan or Iraq to be the last either.

If everyone in Iraq protested us being there and Liberating them I wouldnt be so sure of my feelings, but It’s pockets of insurgents resistance otherwise everyone else is glad we are there. They will be holding elections soon and living a free life just like we gave Afghanistan.

I put myself in that scenario, and if I was scared every single day of my life that Saddam might kill me or kill one of my family members. I would welcome the chance of being free even at the cost of my own life.
I do not see why you cant understand that the Iraqi people were not in good shape with Saddam in power, and rather this go on for another 50 years of horror ,they have to go through a small period of war and can live the next 50 free.

If the deal was laid out to me – Saddam killing everyone I know for 50 years, or 2 years of war. I’d take the war without having to think twice about it.

If America wasent gonna hand the country back to them as free people I wouldnt agree with any of this.

Talk to people in Afghanistan, I bet you anything they arent disappointed. They just held thier first free election and hey the first voter was a 19 year old woman. I’m sorry but I think thats pretty cool, they have come a long ways.

And WKD I know we share different views, I’m not here to attempt to change yours. Just here to throw some thoughts back and forth.

Once again thx for showing a little respect this time I appreciate that.

Osama bin Laden had three demands. Bush caved in to all of them.
Most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi Arabian.
Bush flew Osama bin Laden’s family out of the US after 9/11 during a time when real Americans weren’t allowed to fly.
Saudi Arabia has paid the Bush family over a billion dollars over the last 30 years.
Saudi Arabia also admitted to giving Osama bin Laden 3 million dollars.

Spin that, Bush apologist.

George,

Who are you Micheal Moore? What do you believe more, facts or propaganda movies?
The real truth is Bill Clinton had 8 years to get Osamma bin Laden and failed to even look for him (2 tomahawk missles dont cut it) ,despite the fact, the WTC, the USS Cole, 2 African Embassies and a building that was housing our soldiers in Saudi Arabia were attacked.

P.S. Watch FahernHYPE 911 which includes people that were in the very same movie you saw (fharenheit 911) talking about how Michael Moore basicly tricked them into making statments on subjects unrelated to the material in which Micheal Moore used them in his propaganda movie.

George – You can find it at http://www.fahrenhype911.com read the reviews, better yet watch it.

I am not Michael Moore. Michael dresses better and weighs less than I do.

So, you are blaming the Clenis for Bush going on vacation in August of 2001. How typical of a Bush apologist for the miserable failure. Richard Clarke, who dresses better than Michael Moore and weighs less than him and worked for Reagan, Bush the Smarter, Clinton and Bush the Dumber admitted that we blew capturing Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora on your sock puppet’s watch.

You probably don’t read newspapers so I will be the first to clue you in – 9/11 happened during Bush’s administration, not Clinton’s or Carter’s.

BTW, it isn’t twistie, twistie but tricksy, tricksy which must make you Gollum, Steve.

One more question, Gollum. How many suits did Michael Moore face for misrepresenting the truth?
(Hint: the number is less than 1 if you can count that high.)

-Keep this up and we can talk WKD. No cocky statements and I think thats cool.

I find this statement deeply ironic, and the hubris it represents quite simply remarkable. I’m letting it pass, and so should you.

-…Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or the Uzbeks killing thier own people in mass quantites.

No, because they were not invaded by a power that then extolled their populace to rise up, just before preventing said populace from looting the weapons they could have used to do so. Re the first Gulf War. The others are at the moment your everyday oppressive police states. The Uzbeks are particuly bad.

Most mass civillian deaths in Iraq were either during or just after the various wars that that country has been involved in. Just like now.

-Yes I realize this, It was made clear the US is taking the fight to the terrorists and if any countries harbored them, we would come knocking.
I dont expect now Liberated Afghanistan or Iraq to be the last either.

There was never any evidence that Iraq was in any way shape or form linked to terrorism. There still is not. Nor have any WMD been found. You may have noticed that the reason for the war changed on an almost day to day basis in the run-up to, and also during, the invasion itself. Wolfowitz (sp) himself admitted in an interview with Vanity Fair magazine that WMD was chosen in the end, for ‘beaurucratic reasons’. For that alone Bush should have been impeached, as it directly infers that there was actually no real reason for the war, other than that the administration felt like one.

-If everyone in Iraq protested us being there and Liberating them I wouldnt be so sure of my feelings, but It’s pockets of insurgents resistance otherwise everyone else is glad we are there. They will be holding elections soon and living a free life just like we gave Afghanistan.

What do you think car-bombs are?

Why do you think that US forces are shelling Fullujah?

-I put myself in that scenario, and if I was scared every single day of my life that Saddam might kill me or kill one of my family members. I would welcome the chance of being free even at the cost of my own life.

Now it just means that the US forces will do it instead. Also, large numbers of Iraqis have been arrested and held without trial since the invasion. Whats the difference? Allegations of murder have also been levelled against Allawi by a western journalist, although there has been no follow up on this point. Nor is there ever likely to be.

-I do not see why you cant understand that the Iraqi people were not in good shape with Saddam in power, and rather this go on for another 50 years of horror ,they have to go through a small period of war and can live the next 50 free.

Because they are not, and there is more than ample evidence to prove it. One year and up to 100 000 people is not a small period of war. That number incidentally, does not include military casualties. Whether or not the country will stablilise or devolve into civil war post Fallujah remains to be seen.

-If the deal was laid out to me – Saddam killing everyone I know for 50 years, or 2 years of war. I’d take the war without having to think twice about it.

What makes you think it will be over in two years? Personally, I believe it will get worse post Fallujah. This is however speculation on both our behalfs, and therefore we will have to wait and see.

-If America wasent gonna hand the country back to them as free people I wouldnt agree with any of this.

I doubt the US will actually allow a fully independant Iraq. I think puppet state personally, if Iraq actually survives.

-Talk to people in Afghanistan, I bet you anything they arent disappointed. They just held thier first free election and hey the first voter was a 19 year old woman. I’m sorry but I think thats pretty cool, they have come a long ways.

And the warlords still control the provinces, so the elections don’t really mean a lot outside of Kabul. Or rather, they mean as much as the warlords want them too.

-…(2 tomahawk missles dont cut it)…

Actually almost as many Tomohawks as Gulf War I as I understand it. I remember a number of senior commmanders bitching about it, probably in Aviation Week and Space Technology. It would have been doubtful that Clinton could have got his war through the Republican controlled Congress, especially as Lewinski was just coming into the fore.

-Who are you Micheal Moore? What do you believe more, facts or propaganda movies?

I have not seen the movie. However:

Bush Snr. is on the board of the Carlyle Group, primarily a defence company. Carlyle Group also represents the Saudi Bin Laden company (I believe thats the official name of the company) in the USA. This company is the construction company started by bin Laden’s father in Saudi Arabia. The bin Laden family made its fortune by building palaces for the house of Saud. The bin Laden, Bush and Saud families are at least aquainted with each other, and Osama originally went to Afghanistan on the payroll of Saudi intelligence, as I understand it.

WKD -There was never any evidence that Iraq was in any way shape or form linked to terrorism

What do you think car-bombs are?

Why do you think that US forces are shelling Fullujah?

…Terrorist activity

And the warlords still control the provinces, so the elections don’t really mean a lot outside of Kabul –

Freedom isnt gained overnight and as much as you hate to admit they HAVE come a long way. To the rest of Afghanistan (the warlords) is why we still have troops there.

…………………………………………

George – So, you are blaming the Clenis for Bush going on vacation in August of 2001

Camp David if you understood is not a vacation, it is like another white house all presidential tasks can be preformed from there.

> What do you think car-bombs are?

The conversation was about terrorist activity before the invasion, not activity created by the unilateral occupation.

I said PSYCHO Dictator, I dont see Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or the Uzbeks killing thier own people in mass quantites, having torture chambers and rape rooms.

What are you, blind?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,963497,00.html

Get this through your thick skull – America’s new allies BOIL DISSIDENTS ALIVE!. You ignore this just as people like you ignored Saddam Hussein’s crimes – when he was a US ally.

Don’t fucking bring up Hussein’s crimes unless you are also demanding Uzbekistan be pressured into regime change, you hypocrite.

The conversation was about terrorist activity before the invasion, not activity created by the unilateral occupation.

It’s not terrorism for citizens of a country to use car bombs against an illegal occupying army and their collaberators. It’s resistance.

Against civilians, it’s terrorism.

> What do you think car-bombs are?

The conversation was about terrorist activity before the invasion, not activity created by the unilateral occupation.

The conversation was about terrorist activity before the invasion, not activity created by the unilateral occupation.

It’s not terrorism for citizens of a country to use car bombs against an illegal occupying army and their collaberators. It’s resistance.

Against civilians, it’s terrorism.
………………………………………….

Hmmm.. And I wonder just who trained these people to make and use car bombs? Catching on now???

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,963497,00.html

QUOTE :Get this through your thick skull – America’s new allies BOIL DISSIDENTS ALIVE!. You ignore this just as people like you ignored Saddam Hussein’s crimes – when he was a US ally.

Don’t fucking bring up Hussein’s crimes unless you are also demanding Uzbekistan be pressured into regime change, you hypocrite.
………………………………………….

Me taking for fact what comes from a heavily liberal publication is like me sharing a article from a heavily republican biased publication with you. It isn’t going to fly.

-…Terrorist activity

That’s fundementally dishonest again Steve and you know it. Post invasion attacks on US forces do not constitute terrorist links pre-invasion. You have deliberately equated two separate issues, that is, the Hussein-bin Laden connection (or complete lack thereof according to your own Congress) with the Iraqi resistance.

-Hmmm.. And I wonder just who trained these people to make and use car bombs? Catching on now???

Considering Iraq had a draftee army, most of the male Iraqi population has seen military service. Also, Fuck, I can make a bomb out of an alarm clock and some explosives/petrol/anything. Anyone with an internet connection could learn how to do it in hours. Also, Iraq has the most educated populace in the Middle East. Go figure. A spurious connection at best, and you are once again equating two completely separate issues for your own convenience. That is the mythical Hussein-bin Laden connection and post-war Iraqi resistance. Thats a remarkable and somewhat dishonest leap.

-Me taking for fact what comes from a heavily liberal publication is like me sharing a article from a heavily republican biased publication with you. It isn’t going to fly.

The Guardian is left-leaning but still reputable in the UK. I believe the BBC has also reported on this, as have sundry humanitarian organisations. A google search should turn up sufficient information easily enough.

In fact, US State department.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27873.htm

I said PSYCHO Dictator, I dont see Saudi Arabia, Kuwait or the Uzbeks killing thier own people in mass quantites, having torture chambers and rape rooms.

Uzbekistanian dictator Islam Karimov boils dissidents alive. But for some reason, George Bush thinks he’s a man we should be doing business with.

Does that qualify?

(Steve C) -If the deal was laid out to me – Saddam killing everyone I know for 50 years, or 2 years of war. I’d take the war without having to think twice about it.

(WKD) What makes you think it will be over in two years? Personally, I believe it will get worse post Fallujah. This is however speculation on both our behalfs, and therefore we will have to wait and see.

Hasn’t the war already been going on for something like 20 months? Does anyone really believe this war will be over and everything will be all better in just four more months?

Wars can still end, hence my comment. Personally, I think it will get worse. We’ll wait and see.