15
Shorter Verbatim Bryan Fischer
Coeur d’Alene, Idaho: Spank your child, go to jail for a year
“Because I love you, I must spank you.”
Bonus:
[We] made sure the parent who administered the discipline was the parent who comforted them after the spanking was over (we held them in a loving embrace after a spanking, dried their tears, and enjoyed the way they melted into our arms before they run off to resume play).
Unrelated but added for extra credit, from Sher Zieve:
Fox News has now joined its comrades and the previously “fair and balanced” network seems to have taken a decidedly leftist slant.
To sum up: spanking is good, especially when followed by some passive aggressive love. Add some loony at the end:
Your candidate [Obama] is still a Marxist and will again openly become one after he is President of the United States.
Yes, Barack Obama will openly “become” a Marxist once elected to the White House.
The Total Dick-Head said,
July 15, 2008 at 0:47
I can’t wait to see Barack’s Marxist deconstruction of the White House. I’m using those words right, right?
christian h. said,
July 15, 2008 at 0:47
I can now exclusively reveal that B. Hussein Obama is a member of the 4th International who was sent into the Democratic Party as part of a “deep entryism” operation 20 years ago. Once elected, he will spank rich people and instigate the world revolution. FOX News is, and was, always part of this operation. Apparently, some at the station can’t wait and are showing their true, leftist nature; they will be disciplined!
Righteous Bubba said,
July 15, 2008 at 0:49
If B. Hussein Obama was any more left he’d still be waiting for mom to pick him up from the ball game.
aimai said,
July 15, 2008 at 0:53
Hey, you missed the best part–the child in question is named “laila”–kinda muslim sounding, don’t you think? and the writer is forced to admit that the mommy is not the kind he would ordinarily support since instead of invoking the almighty in her defence he admits
“Note: You can see unedited video footage of Melissa’s explanation of the event at the video link below (note: she lets slip a profanity at one point).”
What strange bedfellows a desire to abuse children makes.
aimai
Warren said,
July 15, 2008 at 0:56
That has got to be one of the creepiest, most disturbing things I’ve read in a long, long time.
John said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:00
“… and enjoyed the way they melted into our arms before they run off to resume play.”
After you beat your wife, the make-up sex is the hottest!
fadegeophile said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:01
Yep. Gross.
J— said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:03
Hey, you missed the best part–the child in question is named “laila”…
I’ve got you on my knee, Laila.
Bistroist said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:03
I know there’s a No Child Left Behind gag in here somewhere, dammit!
(’Left says No to Child’s Behind’ just ain’t cutting it…)
Bistroist said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:07
Kiss their cheeks just to taste their tears.
Righteous Bubba said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:07
I’ve got you on my knee, Laila.
You know you should say “please”, Laila.
Ranting Down A River said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:08
“What strange bedfellows a desire to abuse children makes.”
There is a hierarchy to things that wingnuts fear, which is of course directly proportional to the anger they have at the respective item:
1) (highest) black people
2) gay people
3) disorder - they love authority, and love of punishment is essentially the same
4) smart people - related to their fear of independent thought; cf. Lisa Simpson
5) food with less than 1000 calories a serving
Their tremendous fear of uncertainty is why they love large vehicles. Besides making themselves look richer, like their idols Crooked Businessmen, it makes them look higher up on the pecking order, in a very back-to-nature sense. In other words, they want to “display” in the same way a cat does when its’ fur fluffs up or when a Great Ape beats his chest.
Basically, a lot of wingnut behavior and beliefs come from the fact they are descended from the lesser branches of the human tree. They are still animals in many ways and cannot disguise the fact. Their brains are rudimentary and their emotions rule their “thinking” processes.
guest said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:12
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarf
At least they’re honest about their pedophilia. I guess that’s worth a sip of water every couple of centuries’ worth of eternal hellfire.
seventwentyfour said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:13
Of course after the third spanking incident there are no more loving embraces. Just 5 to 10 in super max.
The Super Nanny said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:14
I don’t just have a TV show, I understand how corporal punishment is bad for a child.
Prepare, America. When Hussein becomes president, his first step will be to import millions of British nannies just like me, and outlaw corporal punishment. Then the overthrow of Christians will be complete!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Susan of Texas said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:14
Administered with careful control, and in response to defiance and disobedience, it is a useful tool in breaking a child’s rebellious will, training him in righteousness and protecting him from self-destructive behavior.
It is an expression of love, not child abuse.
And people wonder why humans are so messed up, so filled with anger and resentment, and callous disregard for others’ suffering? Deliberately breaking the child’s will so he would submit to authority, then training him to justify in the name of religion. But you’re doing it to protect him, because if you don’t hurt him, he might get hurt.
And of course he has to admit that you were right, and hitting him was the right thing to do, and you hurt him because you love him. And God wants him to obey and love his parents and if you don’t God is watching and will be mad at you. The kid doesn’t even have the right to be angry at the treatment, instead he has to embrace and kiss the person that just injured him.
It’s not that people are inherently evil, or that evil stalks the land like an evil stalking thing, or that Satan leads us to sin. It’s the fact that we break and subjugate our children, and expect them to love us for it.
ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:20
It’s the fact that we break and subjugate our children, and expect them to love us for it.
Come on now! They can always have their own kids and torture them, if that’s the way they feel about it.
mikey said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:21
C’mon, you guys.
Where do you think the Marines are gonna get recruits if we don’t torture some of our children?
mikey
Dr Zen said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:21
Jeezus, the video of the woman’s explaining herself is scary. She flings the kid around like a rag doll. The poor kid’s just trying to get away, frightened of the rough treatment, even in the video. Fucking mentalists.
Blue Buddha said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:22
…or you could play “rodeo”: fuck her from behind, and moan some else’s name while you’re doing it. Hold on as long as you can as she tries to throw you off. Yeeee-haw!
Bitter Scribe said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:24
For me, the best part of the Renew America columns are the columnists’ descriptions at the end. Sher Zieve does not disappoint:
Zieve’s op-ed columns are widely carried by multiple internet journals and sites, and she also writes hard news.
But does she also drink hard liquor?
Dr Zen said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:24
OMG:
“Girls need a father to protect them and to affirm their femininity. Girls without fathers tend toward promiscuity to satisfy their inborn hunger for male validation.”
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/fischer/080707
= “If I don’t touch them, nasty men will.”
tigrismus said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:26
Breaking the child’s will! It’s like a kid rodeo, but the clowns are in charge.
Blue Buddha said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:26
This is just as creepy as those Purity Balls.
Lesley said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:35
[We] made sure the parent who administered the discipline was the parent who comforted them after the spanking was over (we held them in a loving embrace after a spanking, dried their tears, and enjoyed the way they melted into our arms before they run off to resume play).
Dominatrices model their techniques off of parents like this. Is it any wonder adults who were raised to associate loving touch with abuse are fucked up sexually?
a different brad said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:38
My parents spanked me once or twice, but in general they did this crazy, weird fucking thing called respecting me as a person. If I did something they thought was wrong, they’d sit me down and explain to me why they thought I shouldn’t do that. N because I was a kid, not an idiot, more times than not I took their point. When I didn’t and repeated the no-no, they’d punish me in non-corporeal ways, such as sending me to my room. And now I’m a DFH with a foul mouth and respect for women. Obviously, my parents really fucked up.
Shit, I’m not even baptized, which is a good thing, because that means God can’t see me masturbate.
Jennifer said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:41
Damn, Blue Buddha, at first read I thought that said “purty” balls.
I only one time ever laid a hand on my niece or nephew. When niece was about 3 years old and was at my house once, we went across the street to talk to the neighbors. I live on a fairly busy street, so before putting her down, I explained how it was not safe to be in the street, how badly she could be hurt, why she needed to stay away from it, yadda yadda yadda. The moment I put her down, what does she do? RUNS DIRECTLY into the street. I came up behind her, scooped her up and began spanking (though not hard) while carrying her back to the house. Man, did she cry! But it wasn’t from pain - it was embarrassment. Once I got her back to the house & calmed her down, I apologized to her and again explained about the street, that I had spanked her because what she did scared me so bad that I wanted to make sure she remembered it and knew how serious it was, etc. etc. Then I fixed her the bowl of strawberries she asked for.
Oddly, I never felt guilty about this incident. I always assumed I would if I ever spanked my (or someone else’s) kid. But I really never felt bad about it, maybe because I didn’t do it because I was angry. I’m not sure that matters to the kid, though.
Simba B said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:45
My parents spanked me for a period when I was about eight or nine years old. I know to this day my father deeply regrets this and considers it one of his major failures as a parent.
I was not an easy kid, nor did I have a particularly nice childhood. It was all flowers and daisies though, compared to some of my friends.
Quaker in a (Colorado) Basement said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:46
Elsewhere in Sher Zieve’s column:
Whuh?
Luna said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:48
Jennifer: I think that is the one and only time a spanking is in order. If the child puts his or her life in danger, and doesn’t listen to simple directions, a good bit of fear of another swat on the ass is a GOOD thing.
These people are creeptastic.
Oh, and could we cut out the rape “jokes”? Pretty please? I get the idea. I know they’re not intended to be offensive, but they really and truly are. This survivor doesn’t need to be reminded of her own fighting in a blog she usually finds safe reading. Thanks!
pedestrian said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:49
Come on now! They can always have their own kids and torture them, if that’s the way they feel about it.
There is a verse in Proverbs that my parents would read that is seared into my brain: “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction will drive it far from him.” They took this to mean that God wants parents to literally beat their children with a wooden rod until they stop having their own silly ideas about things.
How common is corporal punishment for children today? It was religious doctrine where I grew up, but that probably wasn’t representative of the rest of the country.
\
MaineMan said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:49
I dunno. Seems to me that having a follower of Groucho Marx in the White House would be a heck of a lot better than what we’ve had the past two terms - Wile E. Coyote, only not quite smart enough to ever have an “Uh-oh! THIS can’t be good!” moment.
Oh, wait. Perhaps he was referring to Barbara Marx?
Lesley said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:51
Maybe this explains Glen Reynolds’ preference for robots.
D. Sidhe said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:53
It’s shit like this makes me think parenting should be outlawed. Look, I know there are parents out there, perhaps you reading this are one of them, who are not completely sadistic fucked up sociopaths, and I know there are kids who move out of the house without ever having been scarred in the sort of ways that make their doctors in later life make nervous jokes about safewords, I even know in an abstract manner that there are parents who love their kids and treat them well. But you’ll forgive me if every time I see an adult with a child in tow, I have to look away to avoid being ill. Perfectly lovely people tell me they have kids, and I start to suspect them of all sorts of shit. It’s nothing fucking personal, if my partner ever had kids, I’d be the same way, and Christ knows I couldn’t begin to trust myself around kids either, the day they outlaw abortion is the day I cut out my own fucking ovaries with a grapefruit knife. I’m not proud of any of it, but you know, with people like this wandering around, honestly, can you blame me? Really?
Simba B said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:55
It was religious doctrine where I grew up, but that probably wasn’t representative of the rest of the country.
Our roommate grew up in urban LA, but was the child of fundamentalist Baptists who sent him to a Baptist high school and he did his undergrad work at Baylor.
Not all the ‘nutters live out in the sticks.
Blue Buddha said,
July 15, 2008 at 1:58
I was going to say the same. Besides, you’re associating physical pain with something that is really painful.
Snorghagen said,
July 15, 2008 at 2:00
Sher Zieve news flashes:
Fox News is liberal!
Obama is a Marxist!
McCain is secretly a tool of the left!
Stalinists are about to seize power in America!
Bible publishers will soon be forced to go into hiding!
I’m impressed. I’m also intrigued by how she’s styled her hair to make her head look as penis-like as possible.
Me said,
July 15, 2008 at 2:00
Dang, that video link stole my thunder. I live close to where this happened, and I saw that clip on my local news.
There goes my exclusive.
Me said,
July 15, 2008 at 2:04
“Because I love you, I must spank you.”
If you spank me, I will come.
Blue Buddha said,
July 15, 2008 at 2:05
Como que what? What evidence does she have besides pulling this out of her ass? And if you want to talk about “changing scripture”, blame the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons.
Erik Pontoppidan said,
July 15, 2008 at 2:08
Physical discipline is an effective way of teaching a child right and wrong. It is a good way of protecting those children from harm. Think of a hot stove, you tell your child not to touch it, but he doesn’t listen and he touches it. After the painful experience he will never touch another hot stove again. It is the same with physical discipline, that way a child will learn what is appropriate behavior in society and what is not. When your child does right he will be rewarded such as with a fishing trip for example, but if your child does wrong he will get a spanking and be sent to his room thus teaching him right and wrong. As the wise King Solomon writes in Proverbs “He who spares the rod hates his son.” But you liberals don’t believe in God or in His righteous ways so I can’t expect you to understand these things.
RodeoBob said,
July 15, 2008 at 2:08
WTF? Since when was the Bible Eastern Spirituality? Quick, someone get this man a map!
Umm… most of the world was not ‘birthed’ in Judeo-Christian Heritage. Like, you know, all of Africa, Asia, South America. Again, get this guy a map!
And Abu-Grabe was just a frat hazing ritual. Stress positions? Sleep deprivation? I mean really, who is hurt by that?
And Shawn Hornbeck? No harm done there at all.
I’m also pretty sure that there weren’t 8 witnesses that signed statements to the police alleging abuse. Funny how that detail in the actual news article never made it inot the Renew America column…
RodeoBob said,
July 15, 2008 at 2:12
I call troll on Eric, or at least think he’s showing Poe’s Law…
Yes. They will come to see their parents as dangerous sources of pain, to be feared. What’s wrong with that? I mean, it’s not like children should ever understand why they shouldn’t do things. It’s enough that they obey the walking hot-stove-pain-givers that shout orders, right?
Simba B said,
July 15, 2008 at 2:18
Erik is in a stable of fake trolls. All the fake trolls have the exact same didactic tone that you see in that comment. Once you’ve seen one of ‘em, you’ve seen ‘em all—even Gary Ruppert. The only variation is their verbal tic—”fact is”, “law of economics”, etc.
Some of the fake trolls were at one point real—Gary is the canonical example of this, and a Google search of “SowellFan” suggests that he’s a real person’s nym, too. But they get assimilated into the borg of fake trolls here. It’s quite effective, really, as it prevents real trolls from really stinking up the threads. They tend to get confused when they are namejacked like that.
Then again, Fauxtroll Players get drunk/bored/etc. every once in a while and either a) confess under their usual nym, or b) make a stink out of the thread like a real troll.
Mr. Wonderful said,
July 15, 2008 at 2:23
The mom didn’t strike me (sorry; you know what I mean) as the monster I expected, although tossing the kid around during her explanation and calling the kid’s reaction “a tantrum” was a bit much. I never hit either of my kids but they were pretty mild mannered and sensible–I credit them, not me.
The cops sound like they were dicks. But then, the mom could have been enraged at the time, and not the sassy, sensible, kid-tossing gal in the video.
But the true dick is, of course, Fischer. Swatting your kid on the butt before she can run out into the street during a parade is one thing. Relishing applying the lash–sorry; the wooden cooking spoon–to bare skin, and then glorying in how the victim “melts” in your arms, is another. And don’t get me started on their version of “obedience.”
Anyone who attempts to justify anything by reference to the Bible should be spanked, repeatedly, until he begs for mercy, renounces Jeebus, or offers a credible, heartfelt thanks.
Woodrowfan said,
July 15, 2008 at 2:28
The Biblical “rod” is a shepherd’s crook. Shepherds* didn’t beat their flock, they used to staff to nudge the sheep in the direction they wanted to to go, or to block their paths if they were going into a dangerous area. The “spare the rod” means NOT to beat your kids, but to give them guidance. Leave it to the fundies to totally take the verse wrong and use it as an excuse to beat their children….
* well, good shepherds at least.
Mr. Wonderful said,
July 15, 2008 at 2:35
“When your child does right he will be rewarded such as with a fishing trip for example”
Dada phrase of the week. And it’s only Monday.
Oh, and Erik? The burned hand on the hot stove is an immediate piece of feedback caused by the kid’s action. Spanking is an assertion of authority first, and only secondarily “feedback” caused by potentially dangerous action.
Which is not to say you want the kid to get hit by a car “so he’ll learn the lesson of what that’s like.” But spanking threatens to substitute the means–”discipline”–for the ends. Spanking is the corporal version of “because I said so.” Its goal is blind obedience. I think that’s a bad thing.
I’ll bet people who routinely spank their kids do it for an ever-lengthening list of inadequate “reasons” that result in the kid growing up haunted by the fear of irrationally-meted-out punishment from an inscrutable, all-powerful source.
I.e., a Christian.
Bruce said,
July 15, 2008 at 2:52
This guy’s one sick mf. If I saw him within 10 yards of my kid I’d put him away.
seventwentyfour said,
July 15, 2008 at 2:57
…I had spanked her because what she did scared me so bad that I wanted to make sure she remembered it and knew how serious it was…
Oddly, I never felt guilty about this incident. I always assumed I would if I ever spanked my (or someone else’s) kid. But I really never felt bad about it, maybe because I didn’t do it because I was angry.
I don’t think a physical reaction inflicted on someone else is any different if fear is the motivator rather than anger. They’re both emotions that get the adrenaline going and measured reactions are tough in those situations.
But I’m biased. I got “the belt” until I was about 5 years old. My guess is my mom stopped it because my dad drank so much that someone was going to be injured sooner or later. And every classroom I was in until 7th grade had a big wooden paddle hanging prominently. Most days of elementary school had at least one instance where you could here the crack of a paddle in the hallway and crying. My music teacher’s paddle was red and she made blood jokes about it. When you’re 6 or 7 years old that’s just about physical intimidation and fear. There were no lessons in any of it — shocking but among people who are cool with taking a belt to kids, there are a lot who think using words to explain right or wrong is for pussies and losers and by god their kids won’t grow up to be pussies or losers.
I don’t care if someone decides corporal punishment is right for their family. What I don’t get is the need to have other people agree with them.
Lesley said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:04
It’s all about power isn’t it? Abusing a vulnerable child to feel big and powerful.
Whether it’s a pedophile or a religious zealot dad/mom enjoying the aftermath of a spanking session…it’s a fine line with all of these shitheads.
Lesley said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:06
And let’s not forget that religious freak who beat up his dog to teach it who was boss. Who was that again?
aimai said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:09
I spanked my two year old, once. She was thrashing around in the bathtub and really in danger of hurting herself. I took her out and gave her a swat on the bottom, which caused my five year old (also taking the bath) to ask me why I hit her. I said “I was afraid she would hurt herself” to which my five year old said, very slowly, as though to an absolute idiot “I.See.You.Were.afraid.she.would.hurt.herself.and.so.you.hit.her.”
that was the last time I ever resorted to corporal punishment. And I’d like to point out something to non parents–this kind of punishment takes place *after* the incident. No one spanks their kid after the kid gets hit by a car. So at the point that you are excercising all this authority and violence the danger point has really passed and there is no reason on earth why you can’t take other measures–for instance taking the child away from the park as punishment for misbehaving, or taking away a desired treat, or discussing with the child what they did wrong. All of those are equally good approaches to discipline, if not better, than hitting the child. And all of those, unlike hitting, enable the child to grasp that the problem isn’t in them, its in their behavior. Every responsible study of children’s response to punishment is that it shifts the burden of the child’s understanding from the wrongness of the behavior to anger/fear/hatred or tormented love for the abuser. These guys are authoritarians, pure and simple. they hit the child to assert authority, and they are happy because their violence reminds the child that one and only one person in the family makes decisions. That child doesn’t learn how to generate the rules and figure out what is safe behavior and what isn’t–they learn that responsibility for determining what is safe and what isn’t is in the hands of an angry god. I’d put my attachment parented daughters up against these kids any day as self directed, responsible, generous, careful people and it didn’t take any beatings to do it. It took a lot of hard and careful work. On top of being assholes these child abusers are lazy, too.
aimai
tigrismus said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:11
Lesley: that was Dobson.
Lesley said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:13
Alice Miller wrote the book on why corporal punishment, and other humiliations, are harmful to children and ultimately to society.
Highly recommended reading:
For Your Own Good: The hidden cruelty in child-rearing and the roots of violence
http://www.nospank.net/fyog.htm
WereBear said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:15
This whole “breaking of the will” is rampant in fundie circles. Why that’s supposed to be a good thing, I dunno.
Susan of Texas is absolutely right. Scratch any wingnut, and most times you’ll find an Authoritarian upbringing with arbitrary punishment meted out for any offense, real or imagined.
They are now psychologically dependent on authority figures to tell them what to do. Their will is broken. Which is why they fuss so much about “freedom” and “independence.” The hungry person obsesses about food.
One of the things that has always driven me around the bend is when a man treats his male toddler with demands for toughness and adult behavior, to “make a man out of him.”
I’ve been known to tell them, “It didn’t work for you.”
Lesley said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:15
Her web site: http://www.alice-miller.com/books_en.php
Thanks, Tigrismus.
res ipsa loquitur said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:17
…(we held them in a loving embrace after a spanking, dried their tears, and enjoyed the way they melted into our arms before they run off to resume play).
This sounds like something out of a BDSM manual.
luneylegume said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:19
Beating people is only a natural market force , it corrects the surplus of sanity .
Lesley said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:24
“From the moment of birth, when the stone-age baby confronts the twentieth-century mother, the baby is subjected to these forces of violence, called love, as its mother and father have been, and their parents and their parents before them. These forces are mainly concerned with destroying most of its potentialities. This enterprise is on the whole successful.” RD Laing
Susan of Texas said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:25
Alice Miller’s work is a huge influence on me. She’s shown more understanding of human nature than any ten Freuds.
mikey said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:25
One of the primary reasons I never wanted kids is the way I was raised. I never got “spanked”. I got the fist, the door, the bookshelf, the shoe, hey, a beating is a beating. I escaped at twelve, hanging at the beach and hardly ever going home.
And it’s fair to say when I found myself immersed in a world of savagery and killing in Southeast Asia, I was entirely prepared to deal with with violence and hate, and mete out even more violence and hate.
And laugh about it. You fuckers wanna know from hurt? I’ll put fire and death on you and yours and when you beg for mercy? Sorry, we’re fresh out of that today.
I’ve never spent ANY significant time with children, and I only get uncomfortable and grouchy when I have to be around them. Even a screaming child in a grocery store can cause me to abandon my cart and exit stage right.
So just like D. Sidhe, speaker of truth says, you’re all suspect, as in my experience most of you were just violent, angry selfish fuckers.
Like the old story of the “Boy Named Sue”, yeah, sure, in a way, totally by accident without even trying, you might have saved my life. But there have been plenty of long dark nights when I would have gladly given up that life up for a shot at a “childhood”.
Or at least what I think that word means…
mikey
Lesley said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:27
some more astute observations by the late great anti-psychiatrist
“A child born today in the United Kingdom stands a ten times greater chance of being admitted to a mental hospital than to a university … This can be taken as an indication that we are driving our children mad more effectively than we are genuinely educating them. Perhaps it is our way of educating them that is driving them mad.”
“Children do not give up their innate imagination, curiosity, dreaminess easily. You have to love them to get them to do that.”
mythago said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:27
Not to mention that there is no such religion as “Judeo-Christian”. Whenever you hear that phrase, it’s a Christian trying to pretend they don’t hate Jews and aren’t mad that those OT-huggers won’t put down their matzoh long enough to find Jesus.
ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:31
Not to mention that there is no such religion as “Judeo-Christian”. Whenever you hear that phrase, it’s a Christian trying to pretend they don’t hate Jews and aren’t mad that those OT-huggers won’t put down their matzoh long enough to find Jesus.
Not to mention, they don’t really like the dirty fucking hippy Jesus parts, and want to tunnel down to the smiting.
Twernt Nuthin said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:31
Hard to have snarky fun when it’s about beating little kids. Instead we get sad memories of difficult uprearing.
Sigh…
Lesley said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:33
Me too, Susan. Miller opened my eyes to a whole world of truth about the family, mine in particular.
I got hooked on Laing and his associates in the 70s. They identified the craziness in family dynamics and rescued many patients left to rot in mental hospitals. Those guys were heroes.
Erik Pontoppidan said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:35
Sorry to change the subject liberals but it appears that you have already lost the election.
Earlier today President Bush lifted the Executive Order prohibiting offshore oil drilling, something that is supported by 61% of Americans.
Now the only thing left in the way of energy independence and lower gas prices is the Democratic controlled Congress. Your far-left Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid may have been the one who put the final nail in the coffin of the Democrat party. He is on record opposing the President’s decision as is Obama, while Senator McCain supports it.
This election the Democratic party is going to be seen as the party opposed to energy independence and ambivilant about high gas prices.
Though I somehow suspect that the Democrats want high gas prices seeing as they’re in the pocket of the enviro-wacko green crowd which wants less cars on the road anyway.
Expect Senator McCain to capitalize on this breakthrough and call Obama on it! McCain’s poll numbers will sky rocket because of his support for offshore oil drilling and energy independence. And congressional Republicans will benefit as well seeing as this is what they wanted all along. Victory and recontrol of Congress is not that far around the corner it seems.
Gary Ruppert said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:36
The fact is, I spank myself every now and then when I’ve been very bad and deserve to be punished.
RevSnakeoil666 said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:36
I think Erik is a troll, but here’s why he’s wrong anyway…
By far, the main lesson above all else that spanking teaches is that violence is acceptable behavior. When you hit your kid, you’re teaching them how to inflict violence on someone and how to justify it. Every time you hit your kid, you are increasing the likelihood that he or she will behave violently themselves, and someday hit their own kids.
Any other lesson you think you’re teaching through use of violence is one that is being taught through fear and intimidation first, understanding a much distant second, if at all. But again, there isn’t much teaching going on when you spank a child, other than role modelling violent behavior that your child will someday inflict on someone else. Such a lovely cycle.
The best, first step towards creating a world without violence is… wait for it!…. TO NOT INFLICT VIOLENCE ON YOUR KIDS.
It’s such an obvious point, and yet try explaining this to a right wing, christian child-beater sometime. Especially one of these fundie moms who acts like she’s going to rip your throat out if you question the wisdom of hitting a 14 month old. A 14 MONTH OLD. It’s a sad world out there.
ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:38
Erik Pontoppidan said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:35
Sorry to change the subject liberals but it appears that you have already lost the election.
This is central to my point.
Erik Pontoppidan said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:42
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2045378/posts
Southern Beale said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:43
“Because I love you, I must spank you.”
I’ve told this story before over at Eschaton but back in another lifetime I once interviewed Lisa Whelchel Cauble, former “Facts Of Life” star and now wife of an evangelical minister, homeschooling mon and author of Christian books. She was promoting her book on Christian child discipline and I’ll never forget her words:
“My children have really been blessed by a good spanking.”
What else is there to say when someone tells you that?
Gary Ruppert said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:43
The facvt is, liberals, if we cannot hit our kids, how do we teach them respect and to be safe? Logical reasoning? Becoming their buddies? Only liberals assume 2 year olds have taken the same courses in non-logic at a state school as they have.
Southern Beale said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:43
Er, make that a homeschooling MOM.
Lesley said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:55
Most adults who follow their parents’ footsteps and become abusers/spankers/run of the mill low lifes like this Bryan creature have buried their childhoods. They’ve completely forgotten what it was like to be a child. Adults who say “I was spanked and look how well I turned out,” have pushed the shame and humiliation they experienced into a drawer; sacrificed themselves to maintain their faith in the ultimate goodness and rightness of Mom and Dad. Even grown children who find the strength and courage to banish vile parents (violent alcoholics, pedophiles, sociopaths) struggle with guilt about doing so, because parents are like Gods. Even the most grossly abused children will excuse the behaviour of their parents and blame themselves; and, until recently, institutional authorities were only too happy to accommodate them.
Jimbo said,
July 15, 2008 at 3:59
Will we get ponies too Erik?
Because I was promised one, and goddamn it the Republicans had better deliver mine soon.
Erik Pontoppidan said,
July 15, 2008 at 4:05
By the way I forgot to mention. The Congressional ban on offshore oil drilling expires in September. So Congress is going to have to vote on it whether the Democrat leadership likes it or not.
And since the Republicans support offshore oil drilling along with 61% of Americans, which party do you think will benefit from this in November?
owlbear1 said,
July 15, 2008 at 4:09
Erik, you owe me $2000. All collection costs I incur will be added to the bill and you are being charge 21.9% APR.
Dragon-King Wangchuck said,
July 15, 2008 at 4:18
Wheee!!! Poor Wes can’t even blame being stuck on Renew! Renew! for his lack of response. And as creepy and sick as this BDSM incest freak is, that’s not a fake title on the Wes Vernon piece - it actually is about Jesse Helms: Champion of Liberty (RIP).
So anyways, aren’t these Jesus-freaks supposed to know a thing or two about this Bible they keep quoting at us?
WTF !?!? Solomon, most famous for having Richard Chamberlain and Sharon Stone pillaging his mines, but next most famous for the thing about chopping the baby in half? Yes, King Solomon - meant to be taken literally.
Because nothing says respecting proper boundaries is important than having a parent smack you in the bare bottom.
Oh, and Bryan’s sob story about the mom and the twenty-one month old? Lady, if you can’t restrain a twenty one month old infant, then you shouldn’t be at a parade. And unless you have a very precocious twenty one month old, I doubt that Laila would be able to get through a crowd and under the wheels of a float before anyone stops her.
MajorKong said,
July 15, 2008 at 4:49
“Mistrust those in which the urge to punish is strong” - Friedrich Nietzsche
Me said,
July 15, 2008 at 4:58
Eric Something, think about what you’re doing for a moment. You’re repeatedly posting links to a far-right website on a site whose sole mission is to dig up links to far-right websites in order to ridicule them as much as humanly possible.
You’re basically saying, “Hey, people who mock me all the time–I have really embarrassing pictures of myself! Come take a look!”.
flawedplan said,
July 15, 2008 at 5:27
My mom had that break the will mentality, her kids grew up with horrifying shit, beat my brother so bad when he was three his balls swelled to plums and had to be tapped in the hospital. We were always going to the emergency room with this and that from my parent’s hands. Brother grew up into a random murderer, rapist, inflicter, died in prison, what a waste. That upbringing did things to me I had to spend my life holding in check, I got the worst of it because I didn’t want to perpetrate. My siblings all went crazy but not in a good way. I watched them go insane growing up, I went that way too but tried not to take it all out on society like we were raised to. I’m the only one who never did hard time, never been arrested. Sister had three kids while in jail, born dead. The one who resists living like that gets the worst of it from the lot. I don’t talk easy about what they did to me, but Laing and Miller pulled me up yes they were heroes.
Lesley said,
July 15, 2008 at 5:47
You have my sympathies and admiration, flawedplan. Sadly, I’m guessing your mother was never charged with any crime. If I were queen, people would need a license to be able to breed and it wouldn’t be an easy test.
Thankfully, parents who show up with battered kids at emergency wards today are viewed with suspicion and the police become involved. But back in the day, what happened in the family stayed in the family. We’re seeing the horrifying results of the culture of total privacy and nobody’s business in Austria with Elizabeth Fritzl. Ugh. It’s amazing what people can survive and transcend.
mikey said,
July 15, 2008 at 6:14
flawedplan.
Life is hard enough, and when you start out with a ruck fulla rocks and scorpions, it’s just one steaming shitpile.
Seems like maybe you’ve done ok with what you got issued, and for just surviving and building any goddam thing you are to be commended.
You know better than most that tomorrow, same as today, will be a slog, just a matter of saddling up your shit and trying to put one foot in front of the other.
And sometimes “winning” means just not losing everything.
Charley Mike, mi amigo.
May you find your meadow…
mikey
gbear said,
July 15, 2008 at 7:15
[We] made sure the parent who administered the discipline was the parent who comforted them after the spanking was over (we held them in a loving embrace after a spanking, dried their tears, and enjoyed the way they melted into our arms before they run off to resume play).
Sounds like my upbringing in the late 50’s and early 60’s, except for the part after ‘administered the discipline’. The idea of being comforted after a spanking seems too perverse for words. The purpose of spanking a child was to get your fucking awful work day out of your system after coming home to a chaotic house filled with unruly little brats.
Childhood is overrated.
Of course, this is all Obama’s fault….
gbear said,
July 15, 2008 at 7:40
and, of course, the thread has died.
Lesley said,
July 15, 2008 at 8:07
It seems fitting to end this with a link to a photo - or two - of a well loved baby boy happily exploring his world. His parents are both loving, kind, responsible, open-minded, conscious, liberals. He’s going to be ok.
aimai said,
July 15, 2008 at 13:41
I actually watched the video, finally, and its terribly sad. She is very young, and it looks like she might have two kids since there were two identically dressed babies in the picture, both of them staggering around, and she is chronically and almost stupendously unfitted for motherhood. I say that because she treats the child like a toy with neither feelings nor understanding. She holds the kid like a sack of potatoes, flings it around as an example of something that happened on the previous day, and spanks it as a demonstration. She doesn’t think about the child, or about child rearing, in any coherent fashion–not even as much, probably, as she would give to dog training, or she would realize that pretending to spank and scold the child for something it is not doing (squirming and running across the street) would desensitize the child to the situation so that next time she spanks or scolds the child it won’t grasp what is salient about the situation. If mommy always hits me and grabs me and squeezes me and shouts at me what makes this act more of an infringement than just sitting still minding my own business? nothing. Consistency, at least, would be required.
In addition she never makes eye contact with the child but speaks over her head. You can’t get and hold a child’s attention that way. So you can’t teach a child that way. I feel terribly sorry for her. She loves that child but she’s no more fit to be a parent than a two year old is. The child is not a doll that can be picked up, flung around, or dropped when you get bored. Its a person who is learning every minute. And during the course of that video clip you could see the child learning that its mother is an incompetent, indifferent, boob.
aimai
pedestrian said,
July 15, 2008 at 14:55
She holds the kid like a sack of potatoes, flings it around as an example of something that happened on the previous day, and spanks it as a demonstration.
Yeah, if the point of discipline is to form an association between disobedience and pain, what does repeating the beating for no good reason teach? Don’t go near Mommy when there is a camera in the room?
Hershele Ostropoler said,
July 15, 2008 at 17:08
The way the child melts into your arms? Anyone else thinking Stockholm syndrome?
Hershele Ostropoler said,
July 15, 2008 at 17:35
Also, I wouldn’t call it BDSM: the kid hasn’t the capacity to give informed consent nor the opportunity to give or withhold any sort of consent.
ChristMD said,
July 15, 2008 at 18:00
Yeah, my good Mennonite mother used to wail the crap out of me on a regular basis, but she by god never broke my spirit.
Years later she would regularly say something like, “I can’t imagine how pacifists like us thought it was ok to use violence on our children.”
Too little too late: when she died I remembered her with bitterness, not fondness.
My good Mennonite father rarely was involved in the spankings, but to this day I feel that he should have intervened in the beatings, and resent him for not doing so.
A close, loving family and corporal punishment of the children therein are not compatible.
pedestrian said,
July 15, 2008 at 18:23
My good Mennonite father rarely was involved in the spankings, but to this day I feel that he should have intervened in the beatings, and resent him for not doing so.
I know just what you mean. My mother didn’t hit me as often or with as much brutality, but I almost hated her more for watching my father do it and doing nothing to protect me. They both felt (as they told us later) that appearing to be strong in front of us was very important, even more important than being right. They had a rule that they would never contradict each other in front of us and as far as I can remember, they never broke it. I remember reading To Kill a Mockingbird for the first time in ninth grade and what impressed me most about Atticus Finch was that he admitted to his children that he wasn’t very sure of himself as a parent.
tb said,
July 15, 2008 at 18:26
Watch out, he’s going to throw on some Barry White in a second.
jim said,
July 15, 2008 at 22:10
Had a Dad who beat on the other 3 kids - they all wound up in jail &/or jobless. Kept his paws off me, I didn’t wind up in jail & have a job. Any questions?
Hey, haven’t you heard? Wife-beating is MY bailliwick - hands off that wench! You’re depriving me of depravity there!
Damn it - forgot to get a wife TO beat … bear with me … just hold on a minute … uh, hello, Cherry Blossoms? Do you do rush deliveries?
D. Sidhe said,
July 15, 2008 at 23:12
Interestingly, mine went after me, more or less to the exclusion of my siblings, with the intention of breaking me. I’m the family fuckup to this day, though I grant I had a head start on the whole project, I was displaying schizophrenia at three.
I did get spanked, btw. Wooden spoons, hairbrushes, belts, open and closed hands, switches, and sticks. My family has a Ha Ha Those Darn Kids story they tell about the time he “didn’t notice” there was a nail in the stick until we were done. That wasn’t the worst of my childhood, possibly demonstrated by the fact that it was a negligible enough incident I actually never made myself forget it, but the way it became funny family lore, right up there with the poorly scheduled garage sale or that day she wore slippers to school, tends to stay with a person into adulthood. So when people tell me they spank their kids, I always wonder what that’s a euphemism for. Maybe for everyone it’s not, but, you know, prove it.
When he died, I thought I’d be glad. Turns out I didn’t give a fuck either way. I’m still what he made of me, and his dying didn’t fix it either. How’s that for a legacy? You be an asshole, you die, no one gives a fuck. Though I’ve always hoped no one will give much of a fuck when I die, either, and I hope I’ve been less of an asshole.
As the man said, “Anybody asks, you tell them what you want to tell them. The best you’ve got is powerless against me.”
mikey’s nailed it exactly. I can’t be around kids, because of guys like this. I don’t care how adorable your kids are, I will always wonder what you’re doing to them and I will always wonder how much of what they are is in spite of you, and I will always wonder what they will do when they have kids of their own.
I feel bad about it sometimes. I know some of you are parents, and I know you can’t all be evil. But the suspicion doesn’t go away because I think it’s unfair.
This guy is worse than most, just by his attitude. The notion that there’s absolutely nothing wrong with the way he’s raising his kids. It’s like listening to the pro-torture people talk. It’s surreal. They honestly think they’re making sense, they honestly think they sound like humans. What are we supposed to do with that? If this shit is out in the open, what kind of festering mess are they hiding because they know better than to say out loud or do in public?
Say what you want about him, mine never pretended what was happening was normal or okay. That was my job, actually, and I was damned good at it. But he had the decency to be ashamed of it sometimes.
Another Luke said,
July 16, 2008 at 0:05
I am ambivalent about this. I am sure spanking can be done “wrong,” and probably wouldn’t do it to my kids, but my experience was not so terrible. IMO, the religious indoctrination has a WAY worse effect than a couple sharp slaps on the behind followed by a somewhat confusing hug.
I’m from a family of 7 kids. Catholic, but we were in an offshoot that seems almost Pentacostal in retrospect. My gripes with that nonsense (praying in tongues, dancing or laughing or crying for no reason during public prayer, general craziness, etc) make the occasional spanking seem pretty tame. Although I am sure it is crossed all too often by many, I definitely think there is a line between “abuse” and “spanking.”
My dad used to spank (a few hits on the bottom with a hair brush or belt), and would do this same thing where you hug the kid and say “I love you, I did this because I love you,” etc etc. It was not done after the age of 9 or 10, and it was reserved for what were perceived to be the most egregious offenses (talking back to mom was the biggest no no). I only recall a handful of times I actually got spanked, and only a few for my brothers and sisters. All of us turned out to be pretty well adjusted and successful. If anything we experienced was abusive, it was the crazy religious services, not the spanking.
Lawnguylander said,
July 16, 2008 at 0:41
If anything we experienced was abusive, it was the crazy religious services, not the spanking.
Why do these things need to set in competition with each other though? Can’t they both be awful at the same time? I guess if I had to choose between exposing my kid to physical punishment and wacky religious services I’d have a tough choice to make. But I don’t so I choose neither.
Lawnguylander said,
July 16, 2008 at 0:43
BTW, sorry you had to endure both.
D. Sidhe said,
July 16, 2008 at 2:43
Spanking can probably be done non-abusively, though I question whether it can accomplish much in any event. My problem with it is A) the creepy way this fucker talks about it, and B) what else might be going on. The spanking, and honestly, even the physical abuse, in which category I include antics that involved actual power tools, was not so bad, comparatively, for me. With, admittedly, some exceptions. But neither was it isolated. And if you will lay hands on your child in violence, and talk about it without a sense that it might be wrong, in the view that it’s for their own good, then I have to wonder what else you will do for their own good. And I just don’t trust people that much.
As to religious indoctrination, it’s probably similar to spanking. It can be done in a horribly abusive fashion, or it can be done in such a way that it probably doesn’t fuck the kid up (though I’m not sure there’s ever any value to it anyway). It can be the worst of what makes that child into the adult he or she becomes, or it can be an almost-funny bit of bitter baggage. It depends, I think, on what a parent’s kink is, and on how hard they go with it, and how creative they are, and also on how the kid’s brain is wired.
I’m sorry it was that bad for you. I know it can be absolutely crushing for some. But I know it too rarely exists in isolation, and in some cases for some people it’s not the worst part of what makes them, and I can’t look at parents who do that to their children, either, and not assume they’re up to other shit.
They’re all symptoms of the same disease–bad parenting–and they may not all be present at once, but if there’s one, there’s probably others whether you can see them happening or not.
sarah said,
July 16, 2008 at 21:26
i don’t think there is ever any reason to strike a child. ever.
the examples in this thread that have to do with physical danger are no exception. if a child is too young to understand that they must stay out of the road, they shouldn’t be put in a situation where they might go into the road. kids should be set up for success.
discipline doesn’t have to be physically painful or damaging to the spirit. a fair consequence for running into the street, for example, could be going inside immediately or not being allowed to play outside for the day.
i think that spanking is often an expression of adults’ frustration, anger, embarrassment and fear over a situation in which they don’t feel obeyed, they feel overwhelmed, they can’t believe the mistake they made, or they have been shaken by a close call. and grownups need to deal with their feelings in appropriate ways. there is absolutely no excuse for acting out these feelings upon the body of a child. period.