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	<title>Comments on: Shorter Karen Selick</title>
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	<description>Poise! Poise!</description>
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		<title>By: Rugosa</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-3#comment-631467</link>
		<dc:creator>Rugosa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 01:13:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-631467</guid>
		<description>Mikey way up there - 

 I started my blog when I was out of work and looking to fill time.  I have mixed feelings about it - should it be just a friendly pet-photos-and-recipes blog, or should I post political rants more often?  Sometimes things just make me so mad I need to put my English degree to work.   I may start posting more such rants.

Do you ever get to Beantown?

madk</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mikey way up there &#8211; </p>
<p> I started my blog when I was out of work and looking to fill time.  I have mixed feelings about it &#8211; should it be just a friendly pet-photos-and-recipes blog, or should I post political rants more often?  Sometimes things just make me so mad I need to put my English degree to work.   I may start posting more such rants.</p>
<p>Do you ever get to Beantown?</p>
<p>madk</p>
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		<title>By: Simba B</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-3#comment-631368</link>
		<dc:creator>Simba B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-631368</guid>
		<description>D. Sidhe&#8212;

Your partner sounds like my MBA father in her economic viewpoints. He is a decent person at his core but something about the bullshit he learned in biz school he really believes or is loathe to admit that it&#039;s a load of crap. I don&#039;t think he&#039;d ever allow the dystopian scenario that free-market fundamentalism would bring on, he&#039;s been surprised (genuinely I think) by events in the past decade or so to the point of acknowledging that my more left-wing viewpoints may have some merit.

Oh, and just for the record he and my sister are hard-core Obama supporters. I tend to share the &#039;meh&#039; attitude of many here, but they have gone to rallies and such. Fun fact&#8212;they were in some footage that was shown on MSNBC for a while.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>D. Sidhe&mdash;</p>
<p>Your partner sounds like my MBA father in her economic viewpoints. He is a decent person at his core but something about the bullshit he learned in biz school he really believes or is loathe to admit that it&#8217;s a load of crap. I don&#8217;t think he&#8217;d ever allow the dystopian scenario that free-market fundamentalism would bring on, he&#8217;s been surprised (genuinely I think) by events in the past decade or so to the point of acknowledging that my more left-wing viewpoints may have some merit.</p>
<p>Oh, and just for the record he and my sister are hard-core Obama supporters. I tend to share the &#8216;meh&#8217; attitude of many here, but they have gone to rallies and such. Fun fact&mdash;they were in some footage that was shown on MSNBC for a while.</p>
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		<title>By: D. Sidhe</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-631367</link>
		<dc:creator>D. Sidhe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:33:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-631367</guid>
		<description>I just want to thank Karen. My partner, who has an econ degree, has an annoying tendency toward a belief in laissez-faire economics, apparently on the theory that everything will probably work out okay eventually if people help each other and that regulation often causes problems. My partner is not an ungenerous or an unkind person, and as far as I can tell honestly believes that people will behave in a rational and gracious manner towards others if given a chance. It&#039;s bizarre, but there it is. This is what happens when people aren&#039;t victimized by the world in general often very often: they continue to believe that people are basically good and the universe is basically a friendly place. I find it bizarre in a darkly humorous way, but then I tend to find the existence of people with the sort of childhoods that don&#039;t require literal years to be emotionally blocked from their memories to be bizarre in a darkly humorous way as well, rather like being confronted by chickens who are into body piercings. 

In any event, Karen has reminded me again that the reason I am creeped out by my partner&#039;s borderline libertarian viewpoint is nothing to do with my partner, who would never see the point of despoiling the commons for short term personal gain, and everything to do with people like Karen, who would never see the point of *not* despoiling the commons for short term personal gain.

My partner, I need to remember more often, when confronted with people who have been fucked by the bad luck fairies, offers to help in distinctly concrete ways. Karen, apparently, walks past while saying &quot;Wow, homeless people, what&#039;s up with that? Why don&#039;t they just move into a home?&quot; My partner may wonder why other people don&#039;t take their homeless friends in while we wait for the economy to sort itself out, but has actually done so in the past. I&#039;m not sure what that viewpoint could be called, but it is a far cry from the sort of tooth-and-claw Randianism that makes me twitch over the very concept of libertarianism. 

So, thank you, Karen, and I&#039;m going to be extremely nice to my angel of a partner tonight, because even being a good enough person that you cannot imagine the predators ranged out there is a precious thing that deserves rewarding. Even if I&#039;m glad as fuck that it&#039;s not me personally possessed of that sort of naive-to-the-point-of-twee worldview. And, okay, also because that sort of person desperately needs *some* vices, and hot monkey sex will have to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just want to thank Karen. My partner, who has an econ degree, has an annoying tendency toward a belief in laissez-faire economics, apparently on the theory that everything will probably work out okay eventually if people help each other and that regulation often causes problems. My partner is not an ungenerous or an unkind person, and as far as I can tell honestly believes that people will behave in a rational and gracious manner towards others if given a chance. It&#8217;s bizarre, but there it is. This is what happens when people aren&#8217;t victimized by the world in general often very often: they continue to believe that people are basically good and the universe is basically a friendly place. I find it bizarre in a darkly humorous way, but then I tend to find the existence of people with the sort of childhoods that don&#8217;t require literal years to be emotionally blocked from their memories to be bizarre in a darkly humorous way as well, rather like being confronted by chickens who are into body piercings. </p>
<p>In any event, Karen has reminded me again that the reason I am creeped out by my partner&#8217;s borderline libertarian viewpoint is nothing to do with my partner, who would never see the point of despoiling the commons for short term personal gain, and everything to do with people like Karen, who would never see the point of *not* despoiling the commons for short term personal gain.</p>
<p>My partner, I need to remember more often, when confronted with people who have been fucked by the bad luck fairies, offers to help in distinctly concrete ways. Karen, apparently, walks past while saying &#8220;Wow, homeless people, what&#8217;s up with that? Why don&#8217;t they just move into a home?&#8221; My partner may wonder why other people don&#8217;t take their homeless friends in while we wait for the economy to sort itself out, but has actually done so in the past. I&#8217;m not sure what that viewpoint could be called, but it is a far cry from the sort of tooth-and-claw Randianism that makes me twitch over the very concept of libertarianism. </p>
<p>So, thank you, Karen, and I&#8217;m going to be extremely nice to my angel of a partner tonight, because even being a good enough person that you cannot imagine the predators ranged out there is a precious thing that deserves rewarding. Even if I&#8217;m glad as fuck that it&#8217;s not me personally possessed of that sort of naive-to-the-point-of-twee worldview. And, okay, also because that sort of person desperately needs *some* vices, and hot monkey sex will have to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Travis Disaster</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-631358</link>
		<dc:creator>Travis Disaster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 21:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-631358</guid>
		<description>Did someone say &quot;Star Trek fixated conservative???&quot;

http://gi-trekker.livejournal.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did someone say &#8220;Star Trek fixated conservative???&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://gi-trekker.livejournal.com" rel="nofollow">http://gi-trekker.livejournal.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: WereBear</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-631310</link>
		<dc:creator>WereBear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-631310</guid>
		<description>Ferengi had more than a bit of the network executive attitude. And it is also a satire of wingnut free market thought.

Not that I expect a wingnut to get that.

Ferengi did not let anything get in the way of profit. So they had no art or higher culture of their own. DS9 also showed how the younger Ferengi were questioning this mindset, through Quark&#039;s son, and Quark was occasionally conflicted himself.

Because they were a leech society; parasitically existing through other cultures. A leech can always get along, so long as there are hosts they do not kill.

But it&#039;s not something that inspires aspiration.

If wingnuts truly were to devolve our society to the dog-eat-dog principles they espouse, don&#039;t they realize they would wind up on the bottom? They are incompetent whiners with few real skills and no guts at all.

Once the serf society the neocons lust after was complete, there would be no need for propagandists and the nepotic wingnut welfare system. They would wind up in the sport fighting pit because they have shown there is no low they will not get under.

It would be Mad Max without the assless chaps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ferengi had more than a bit of the network executive attitude. And it is also a satire of wingnut free market thought.</p>
<p>Not that I expect a wingnut to get that.</p>
<p>Ferengi did not let anything get in the way of profit. So they had no art or higher culture of their own. DS9 also showed how the younger Ferengi were questioning this mindset, through Quark&#8217;s son, and Quark was occasionally conflicted himself.</p>
<p>Because they were a leech society; parasitically existing through other cultures. A leech can always get along, so long as there are hosts they do not kill.</p>
<p>But it&#8217;s not something that inspires aspiration.</p>
<p>If wingnuts truly were to devolve our society to the dog-eat-dog principles they espouse, don&#8217;t they realize they would wind up on the bottom? They are incompetent whiners with few real skills and no guts at all.</p>
<p>Once the serf society the neocons lust after was complete, there would be no need for propagandists and the nepotic wingnut welfare system. They would wind up in the sport fighting pit because they have shown there is no low they will not get under.</p>
<p>It would be Mad Max without the assless chaps.</p>
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		<title>By: Lesley</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-631284</link>
		<dc:creator>Lesley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 18:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-631284</guid>
		<description>Wow, Margaret Hamilton!  I knew she reminded me of somebody.  Thanks Susan of Texas.  I&#039;m reaaaaaaaaally tempted to work up a pic of Karen in green face with flying monkeys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, Margaret Hamilton!  I knew she reminded me of somebody.  Thanks Susan of Texas.  I&#8217;m reaaaaaaaaally tempted to work up a pic of Karen in green face with flying monkeys.</p>
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		<title>By: J Neo Marvin</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-631213</link>
		<dc:creator>J Neo Marvin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:42:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-631213</guid>
		<description>SHOUTING FIRE IN A CROWDED THEATRE

Shout fire while the theatre is burning down
We used to lock away people like you
Now you can let off a little steam
But stay inside your designated corner
Because the truth is too extreme.

Shout fire while they’re lining up for blocks
To get inside the smoking door
They’ve got a show you wouldn’t believe
A house of cards rising to the sky
And everybody wants to add one more.

Shout fire while the beams and shingles fall
The TV monitors say calm down
Business is thriving and there is no danger
A crisis comes and a crisis goes
But normal life goes on and on.

Shout fire while we’re crawling through the ash
Come on and take a final bow
Now that it’s too late to make a difference
We want to make you an official hero
‘Cause you were so ahead of your time
A testimony to your vision
‘Cause you were so ahead of your time
Yeah you were so ahead of your time
They’re gonna name a street after you
Give you a new oxygen mask too
‘Cause you were so ahead of your time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SHOUTING FIRE IN A CROWDED THEATRE</p>
<p>Shout fire while the theatre is burning down<br />
We used to lock away people like you<br />
Now you can let off a little steam<br />
But stay inside your designated corner<br />
Because the truth is too extreme.</p>
<p>Shout fire while they’re lining up for blocks<br />
To get inside the smoking door<br />
They’ve got a show you wouldn’t believe<br />
A house of cards rising to the sky<br />
And everybody wants to add one more.</p>
<p>Shout fire while the beams and shingles fall<br />
The TV monitors say calm down<br />
Business is thriving and there is no danger<br />
A crisis comes and a crisis goes<br />
But normal life goes on and on.</p>
<p>Shout fire while we’re crawling through the ash<br />
Come on and take a final bow<br />
Now that it’s too late to make a difference<br />
We want to make you an official hero<br />
‘Cause you were so ahead of your time<br />
A testimony to your vision<br />
‘Cause you were so ahead of your time<br />
Yeah you were so ahead of your time<br />
They’re gonna name a street after you<br />
Give you a new oxygen mask too<br />
‘Cause you were so ahead of your time.</p>
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		<title>By: Realist</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-631187</link>
		<dc:creator>Realist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-631187</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;AT least Ferengi were knowledgeable about laws of economics.&lt;/i&gt;

Or they would be if they actually, you know, existed and stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>AT least Ferengi were knowledgeable about laws of economics.</i></p>
<p>Or they would be if they actually, you know, existed and stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: MaryC</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-631142</link>
		<dc:creator>MaryC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:26:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-631142</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Karen Selick, family law attorney, is on a list of supporters of a “men’s alternative safe house” “because there are so many shelters for women and none for men” in Canada.&lt;/i&gt;

It  seems to be de rigeur for wingnuts up here to be in love with the idea of male victimization.  

As I said above, &lt;a href=&quot;//tinyurl.com/5va57o”&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;women &lt;/a&gt;who spout this line will always have a home at the National Post.  

But its poster boy is a guy called David Warren, an incredibly pompous bloviator who’s a conservative Catholic, divorced and a deadbeat dad who’s been hauled up in court for being in arrears.    

When he’s not finger-wagging about decency he &lt;a href=&quot;//www.davidwarrenonline.com/index.php?id=881”&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;writes bitterly &lt;/a&gt; about his rapacious ex and  &lt;a href=&quot;//www.westernstandard.ca/website/article.php?id=2324”&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; the unfairness &lt;/a&gt; of  having to support his children now that they are both over 18  without ever mentioning that one of those children has Down syndrome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Karen Selick, family law attorney, is on a list of supporters of a “men’s alternative safe house” “because there are so many shelters for women and none for men” in Canada.</i></p>
<p>It  seems to be de rigeur for wingnuts up here to be in love with the idea of male victimization.  </p>
<p>As I said above, <a href="//tinyurl.com/5va57o”" rel="nofollow">women </a>who spout this line will always have a home at the National Post.  </p>
<p>But its poster boy is a guy called David Warren, an incredibly pompous bloviator who’s a conservative Catholic, divorced and a deadbeat dad who’s been hauled up in court for being in arrears.    </p>
<p>When he’s not finger-wagging about decency he <a href="//www.davidwarrenonline.com/index.php?id=881”" rel="nofollow">writes bitterly </a> about his rapacious ex and  <a href="//www.westernstandard.ca/website/article.php?id=2324”" rel="nofollow"> the unfairness </a> of  having to support his children now that they are both over 18  without ever mentioning that one of those children has Down syndrome.</p>
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		<title>By: daddyj</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-631120</link>
		<dc:creator>daddyj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-631120</guid>
		<description>Clearly the Ferengi in DS9 are a Jewish caricature, but it&#039;s an anti-caricature, just like the New Yorker Obama-fist-bump cover. (Let&#039;s tie up some loose threads here!) It&#039;s satire directed at the bigotry, blowing it up so big it pops.

As I recall, Quark, and sometimes even his schlemiel brother Rom, invariably did the right thing and saved everybody&#039;s ass, in spite of their cowardice, griping and greed.

Ms. Sellick&#039;s point seems to be that if you call an entire group out for their vile behavior, the good ones will feel shame and reform. Hey, that&#039;s what Sadly, No! is all about!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clearly the Ferengi in DS9 are a Jewish caricature, but it&#8217;s an anti-caricature, just like the New Yorker Obama-fist-bump cover. (Let&#8217;s tie up some loose threads here!) It&#8217;s satire directed at the bigotry, blowing it up so big it pops.</p>
<p>As I recall, Quark, and sometimes even his schlemiel brother Rom, invariably did the right thing and saved everybody&#8217;s ass, in spite of their cowardice, griping and greed.</p>
<p>Ms. Sellick&#8217;s point seems to be that if you call an entire group out for their vile behavior, the good ones will feel shame and reform. Hey, that&#8217;s what Sadly, No! is all about!</p>
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		<title>By: annejumps</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-631074</link>
		<dc:creator>annejumps</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-631074</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t this (I haven&#039;t the heart to check) that asshole who complains about Canadian health care (now that she&#039;s already taken advantage of it for a chronic condition she has) but doesn&#039;t put her money where her mouth is and move to the States to take part in our apparently wonderful healthcare? God, almost as bad as Swedish Libertarians (I know a Libertarian Swede who is campaigning for McCain).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t this (I haven&#8217;t the heart to check) that asshole who complains about Canadian health care (now that she&#8217;s already taken advantage of it for a chronic condition she has) but doesn&#8217;t put her money where her mouth is and move to the States to take part in our apparently wonderful healthcare? God, almost as bad as Swedish Libertarians (I know a Libertarian Swede who is campaigning for McCain).</p>
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		<title>By: John Iselin</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-631063</link>
		<dc:creator>John Iselin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-631063</guid>
		<description>pedestrian makes a very good point with which I entirely agree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pedestrian makes a very good point with which I entirely agree.</p>
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		<title>By: fish</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-631029</link>
		<dc:creator>fish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:50:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-631029</guid>
		<description>Well she is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theadvocates.org/images/karen-selick200q.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ferengi&lt;/a&gt; after all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well she is <a href="http://www.theadvocates.org/images/karen-selick200q.jpg" rel="nofollow">Ferengi</a> after all.</p>
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		<title>By: alec</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-631025</link>
		<dc:creator>alec</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:42:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-631025</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;
If you are looking to maximize efficiency, yes.&lt;/i&gt;

Marginally related point: the biggest single factor in the glibertarian pathology is a deliberate and unshakable confusion of efficiency and efficacy.

Economic efficiency has a very specific definition - a definition that in many fields is so far from acceptable that privatizing them would be monstrous. A good example: the Rumsfeldized military strives to function in as economically efficient a fashion as possible, completely throwing out the general success and humanity (relatively speaking) of the age-old American doctrine of overwhelming force on the say-so of slicked-up money-launderers. The result is a military that never quite does the job even when it&#039;s in top shape, and when things start to go to hell winds up costing even more than a decent establishment would have in the first place.

Even if you believe there&#039;s never been anything better for economic efficiency than the free market (a belief that isn&#039;t substantiated by fact, but hey), you don&#039;t want economic efficiency triumphing over allocative or social efficiency - or general efficacy - when it comes to vital services.

This is a difficult point to convey to these people, partially because they like to play ignorant at inopportune times. &#039;Vital&#039;, for your average glibbie, means &#039;serving me&#039;. Cutting costs at hospitals by floating rumors in Wopanese that doctors are stealing organs is Efficiency in Action; their cleaning lady spraying the house with bargain-basement nerve agents and killing their labradoodle would be an atrocity worthy of the electric chair. Restricting her right to accuse the Ferengi of making up the Holocaust is a crime against freedom; allowing Muslims to worship freely in the privacy of their own home is an execrable betrayal of civilization.

The only particularly effective answer to this gordian knot of logic and bullshit is, per Alexander, slicing them open and laughing maniacally. Sadly, civilization has taken a steep nose-dive since those heady days; they won&#039;t even let you wear an elephant&#039;s head as a crown any longer, let alone carve a bloody swath from Thrace to Bactria.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i><br />
If you are looking to maximize efficiency, yes.</i></p>
<p>Marginally related point: the biggest single factor in the glibertarian pathology is a deliberate and unshakable confusion of efficiency and efficacy.</p>
<p>Economic efficiency has a very specific definition &#8211; a definition that in many fields is so far from acceptable that privatizing them would be monstrous. A good example: the Rumsfeldized military strives to function in as economically efficient a fashion as possible, completely throwing out the general success and humanity (relatively speaking) of the age-old American doctrine of overwhelming force on the say-so of slicked-up money-launderers. The result is a military that never quite does the job even when it&#8217;s in top shape, and when things start to go to hell winds up costing even more than a decent establishment would have in the first place.</p>
<p>Even if you believe there&#8217;s never been anything better for economic efficiency than the free market (a belief that isn&#8217;t substantiated by fact, but hey), you don&#8217;t want economic efficiency triumphing over allocative or social efficiency &#8211; or general efficacy &#8211; when it comes to vital services.</p>
<p>This is a difficult point to convey to these people, partially because they like to play ignorant at inopportune times. &#8216;Vital&#8217;, for your average glibbie, means &#8217;serving me&#8217;. Cutting costs at hospitals by floating rumors in Wopanese that doctors are stealing organs is Efficiency in Action; their cleaning lady spraying the house with bargain-basement nerve agents and killing their labradoodle would be an atrocity worthy of the electric chair. Restricting her right to accuse the Ferengi of making up the Holocaust is a crime against freedom; allowing Muslims to worship freely in the privacy of their own home is an execrable betrayal of civilization.</p>
<p>The only particularly effective answer to this gordian knot of logic and bullshit is, per Alexander, slicing them open and laughing maniacally. Sadly, civilization has taken a steep nose-dive since those heady days; they won&#8217;t even let you wear an elephant&#8217;s head as a crown any longer, let alone carve a bloody swath from Thrace to Bactria.</p>
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		<title>By: Woodrowfan</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-631020</link>
		<dc:creator>Woodrowfan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:32:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-631020</guid>
		<description>Man, what the hell happened to her?  Talk about someone with a whithered, hard, tiny soul  (and she seems to be almost a tenth as smart as she thinks she is).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Man, what the hell happened to her?  Talk about someone with a whithered, hard, tiny soul  (and she seems to be almost a tenth as smart as she thinks she is).</p>
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		<title>By: pedestrian</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-631000</link>
		<dc:creator>pedestrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-631000</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But, yes, absent those two, it makes more sense for a $50 an hour lawyer to just do a bit more lawyerin’ and then pay a $10 an hour food bank worker, rather than going down to the food bank himself.
&lt;/i&gt;

If you are looking to maximize efficiency, yes.   Actually, it would make more sense to take a fraction of the lawyer&#039;s income in taxes and use it to fund social services.  Volunteering isn&#039;t about getting the most money to poor people, it is about recognizing that we all gain by pitching in to help each other out.  When I used to go to the food bank, professionals and church groups would be working alongside homeless people who were actually hired to do the same job.  Physical labor and human interaction has it&#039;s own value.  Jane Addams was onto something when she said that charity isn&#039;t just about the rich reaching down to help the poor, but all groups reaching across the divide and learning from each other.

If that is too mushy feel-good, you can blame it on my coffee buzz.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>But, yes, absent those two, it makes more sense for a $50 an hour lawyer to just do a bit more lawyerin’ and then pay a $10 an hour food bank worker, rather than going down to the food bank himself.<br />
</i></p>
<p>If you are looking to maximize efficiency, yes.   Actually, it would make more sense to take a fraction of the lawyer&#8217;s income in taxes and use it to fund social services.  Volunteering isn&#8217;t about getting the most money to poor people, it is about recognizing that we all gain by pitching in to help each other out.  When I used to go to the food bank, professionals and church groups would be working alongside homeless people who were actually hired to do the same job.  Physical labor and human interaction has it&#8217;s own value.  Jane Addams was onto something when she said that charity isn&#8217;t just about the rich reaching down to help the poor, but all groups reaching across the divide and learning from each other.</p>
<p>If that is too mushy feel-good, you can blame it on my coffee buzz.</p>
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		<title>By: Trilateral Chairman</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-630999</link>
		<dc:creator>Trilateral Chairman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:54:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-630999</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But, yes, absent those two, it makes more sense for a $50 an hour lawyer to just do a bit more lawyerin’ and then pay a $10 an hour food bank worker, rather than going down to the food bank himself.&lt;/i&gt;

The funny part is that many conservatives consider your second point to be a vital part of any well-run welfare system.  Can&#039;t just blindly hand out money to people; you&#039;ve got to look &#039;em in the eye, know who&#039;s who, and do your best to make them feel as bad as possible about needing to come to the food bank.

I do like the consequences of her idea about food banks.  Giving a product away creates demand for that product, even if it&#039;s something basic like food.  Presumably that&#039;s true for health care as well, and giving it away makes more people sick.  I&#039;m sure Karen would agree that subsidizing or reducing the price of a product increases demand too, which means that (by her &quot;logic,&quot; at least) all forms of health insurance, whether government-sponsored or otherwise, increase demand for health care.  Thus, logically speaking, we can cure all illnesses if we make health care so expensive that nobody can afford it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>But, yes, absent those two, it makes more sense for a $50 an hour lawyer to just do a bit more lawyerin’ and then pay a $10 an hour food bank worker, rather than going down to the food bank himself.</i></p>
<p>The funny part is that many conservatives consider your second point to be a vital part of any well-run welfare system.  Can&#8217;t just blindly hand out money to people; you&#8217;ve got to look &#8216;em in the eye, know who&#8217;s who, and do your best to make them feel as bad as possible about needing to come to the food bank.</p>
<p>I do like the consequences of her idea about food banks.  Giving a product away creates demand for that product, even if it&#8217;s something basic like food.  Presumably that&#8217;s true for health care as well, and giving it away makes more people sick.  I&#8217;m sure Karen would agree that subsidizing or reducing the price of a product increases demand too, which means that (by her &#8220;logic,&#8221; at least) all forms of health insurance, whether government-sponsored or otherwise, increase demand for health care.  Thus, logically speaking, we can cure all illnesses if we make health care so expensive that nobody can afford it!</p>
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		<title>By: Dragon-King Wangchuck</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-630998</link>
		<dc:creator>Dragon-King Wangchuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-630998</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;There are three possibilities about the televised portrayal of Ferengis: it might be true for all Ferengis, it might be false for all Ferengis or it might be true for some Ferengis and false for others.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You&#039;ll love this three-parter:

1.  All those minorities really are dirty/lazy/deceitful/immoral/smelly/evil/criminal/stupid etc.  BUT since our culture is the &lt;b&gt;greatest in the whole entire universes&lt;/b&gt; we need to protect &lt;b&gt;hate speech&lt;/b&gt; so that &lt;blockquote&gt;humans could tell Ferengis what we disapprove of and what we consider acceptable, Ferengis could change their conduct.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
That&#039;s right.  We need to be able to tell those &lt;strike&gt;blacks&lt;/strike&gt; &lt;strike&gt;Mexicans&lt;/strike&gt; &lt;strike&gt;Injuns&lt;/strike&gt; &lt;strike&gt;Islamofascists&lt;/strike&gt; &lt;strike&gt;Jews&lt;/strike&gt; &lt;strike&gt;Irish&lt;/strike&gt; &lt;strike&gt;Sub-continentals&lt;/strike&gt; &lt;strike&gt;Gooks&lt;/strike&gt; &lt;strike&gt;Chinks&lt;/strike&gt; &lt;strike&gt;Pakis&lt;/strike&gt; Ferengi that they need to shape up and fly right, and gosh darn it, they will.  Hey newsflash for Karen Selick, I appreciate that your new to this planet Earth, but humans disapprove of racism - it&#039;s just not considered acceptable.  Now shape up and fly right.

2.  Hollywood&#039;s at fault.  Actually, that&#039;s a lot stronger than her actual argument:
&lt;blockquote&gt;If no earthling ever articulates the lies we have all swallowed, Ferengis will never have the opportunity to rebut them.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Umm, yeah.  FFS - This is so stupid I&#039;m having trouble addressing it at all.  I mean holy shit, &lt;b&gt;hate speech&lt;/b&gt; should be allowed so that the targets of the hate speech can tell the lynch mob that the demagogues are lying?  WTF &interrobang;

3.  The magical synthesis of 1 and 2.
&lt;blockquote&gt;No doubt after the falsehoods have been thoroughly rebutted and the bad Ferengis have reformed, there will still be the occasional recalcitrant bigot who would irrationally continue to hate Ferengis. But that&#039;s when freedom of speech will be the most valuable of all. Ferengis will want to avoid dealing with such irrational individuals even more than the bigots want to avoid Ferengis. And so will other righteous humans. Let the bigots identify themselves, and let them suffer the consequences.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So yeah, &lt;b&gt;hate speech&lt;/b&gt; legalized so that other cultures can take on &quot;our values&quot;, and demagogues can be shown to be liars.  I don&#039;t know what world she lives in, apparently one where hate-mongers and race-baiters are shunned by society instead of being given columns in national newspapers and their own shows on FOX News and CNN.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>There are three possibilities about the televised portrayal of Ferengis: it might be true for all Ferengis, it might be false for all Ferengis or it might be true for some Ferengis and false for others.</p></blockquote>
<p>You&#8217;ll love this three-parter:</p>
<p>1.  All those minorities really are dirty/lazy/deceitful/immoral/smelly/evil/criminal/stupid etc.  BUT since our culture is the <b>greatest in the whole entire universes</b> we need to protect <b>hate speech</b> so that<br />
<blockquote>humans could tell Ferengis what we disapprove of and what we consider acceptable, Ferengis could change their conduct.</p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s right.  We need to be able to tell those <strike>blacks</strike> <strike>Mexicans</strike> <strike>Injuns</strike> <strike>Islamofascists</strike> <strike>Jews</strike> <strike>Irish</strike> <strike>Sub-continentals</strike> <strike>Gooks</strike> <strike>Chinks</strike> <strike>Pakis</strike> Ferengi that they need to shape up and fly right, and gosh darn it, they will.  Hey newsflash for Karen Selick, I appreciate that your new to this planet Earth, but humans disapprove of racism &#8211; it&#8217;s just not considered acceptable.  Now shape up and fly right.</p>
<p>2.  Hollywood&#8217;s at fault.  Actually, that&#8217;s a lot stronger than her actual argument:</p>
<blockquote><p>If no earthling ever articulates the lies we have all swallowed, Ferengis will never have the opportunity to rebut them.</p></blockquote>
<p>Umm, yeah.  FFS &#8211; This is so stupid I&#8217;m having trouble addressing it at all.  I mean holy shit, <b>hate speech</b> should be allowed so that the targets of the hate speech can tell the lynch mob that the demagogues are lying?  WTF &amp;interrobang;</p>
<p>3.  The magical synthesis of 1 and 2.</p>
<blockquote><p>No doubt after the falsehoods have been thoroughly rebutted and the bad Ferengis have reformed, there will still be the occasional recalcitrant bigot who would irrationally continue to hate Ferengis. But that&#8217;s when freedom of speech will be the most valuable of all. Ferengis will want to avoid dealing with such irrational individuals even more than the bigots want to avoid Ferengis. And so will other righteous humans. Let the bigots identify themselves, and let them suffer the consequences.</p></blockquote>
<p>So yeah, <b>hate speech</b> legalized so that other cultures can take on &#8220;our values&#8221;, and demagogues can be shown to be liars.  I don&#8217;t know what world she lives in, apparently one where hate-mongers and race-baiters are shunned by society instead of being given columns in national newspapers and their own shows on FOX News and CNN.</p>
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		<title>By: Trilateral Chairman</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-630997</link>
		<dc:creator>Trilateral Chairman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-630997</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;to at least some extent the Ferengi...were an over-the-top reproduction of every ridiculous Jewish stereotype ever made, right down to the lechery and ugliness.

Hell, the fact that many of the people involved in making Star Trek were Jewish just makes that more likely - no one’s better at anti-Semitism than the Jews, after all.&lt;/i&gt;

Well, I do think Hitler managed to top them.  

That aside, my father (a lawyer who was raised Jewish) immediately identified the Ferengi as a Jewish stereotype.  Nor did he reject it: in fact, he occasionally refers to some of his nastier clients and opponents as &quot;Ferengi.&quot;  His notion, for whatever it&#039;s worth, is that the Ferengi were designed as something of an in-joke among the writers.  Since they&#039;re in Hollywood, the writers probably spent a good bit of time dealing with Ferengi-like people, and parodying them as ridiculous aliens was a way to blow off some steam. 

I don&#039;t particularly endorse this, in part because I know that some rather nasty people would be all too happy to agree, but there it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>to at least some extent the Ferengi&#8230;were an over-the-top reproduction of every ridiculous Jewish stereotype ever made, right down to the lechery and ugliness.</p>
<p>Hell, the fact that many of the people involved in making Star Trek were Jewish just makes that more likely &#8211; no one’s better at anti-Semitism than the Jews, after all.</i></p>
<p>Well, I do think Hitler managed to top them.  </p>
<p>That aside, my father (a lawyer who was raised Jewish) immediately identified the Ferengi as a Jewish stereotype.  Nor did he reject it: in fact, he occasionally refers to some of his nastier clients and opponents as &#8220;Ferengi.&#8221;  His notion, for whatever it&#8217;s worth, is that the Ferengi were designed as something of an in-joke among the writers.  Since they&#8217;re in Hollywood, the writers probably spent a good bit of time dealing with Ferengi-like people, and parodying them as ridiculous aliens was a way to blow off some steam. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t particularly endorse this, in part because I know that some rather nasty people would be all too happy to agree, but there it is.</p>
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		<title>By: SowellFan</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/9862.html/comment-page-2#comment-630996</link>
		<dc:creator>SowellFan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sadlyno.com/?p=9862#comment-630996</guid>
		<description>AT least Ferengi were knowledgeable about laws of economics.  This cannot be said for liberals, who just want handouts and tolerance for gays and child molestors and terrorists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AT least Ferengi were knowledgeable about laws of economics.  This cannot be said for liberals, who just want handouts and tolerance for gays and child molestors and terrorists.</p>
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