This is a bit late in the day and probably won’t get read but here’s where you and I differ, M. Although I’ve seen these ideals you mention in the movies and in some books and especially on television (as a child of the 60s I was raised on myths and indoctrinated to think of America as noble and great, a land of the free and the brave, the honest and the good, the true and the noble) I’m hard pressed to find them lived up to in actual history.

My country has been similarly idealized (“true north strong and free”) and much of this has been horseshit in real life. Immigrants quickly discover the hard truth upon arrival to this great land called Canada where everyone is liberated and people are treated equitably and fairly. Uh, not so much.

I think many of us strive to live up to the ideals that have been scripted into our constitutions and yes, our countries are infinitely better than many other places, but I do not gaze upon my country with mist in my eyes and I certainly never idealize political parties or their leaders. Neither do I hold my country above all other countries on the planet; as there are, in fact, better places to live. Especially now. (I can think of a few places I can get better quality health care, for example. And public health care is one of the ideals Canadians can no longer champion because our politicians, left, liberal, and conservative, are selling it off to the private sector.)

I said in several responses to you that I hope for a Democratic outcome in the US. Canadians are very hopeful Americans get it right this time, but I place my faith in people who fight for change, not so much the politicians.

And people choose him!

Still a mind-blower.

Plus…I think Rasmussen is full of crap. It consistly polls McCain higher. I think their sample is off.

Here is a fuller explanation of why:

There is only one Republican. That is, there are no alternatives in the decision space for that slot.

THere are two Democrats. There is an alternative in the decision space. Please note, here’s where it gets tricky. Even in surveys that focus on only one of the the Democrats, the fact that there is an alternative NEVER leaves the decision space and Democratic Candidate A is always compared against Democratic Candidate B. That comparison will influence the outcome of the survey response with a bias towards the single Republican.

My issue upthread was less about canadian-ness and more about oh-so-cool cynicism. I did, however, take exception to the fact that someone might tell me that hope was stupid and silly, all the while sitting in a country substantially less affected by the horrific criminal policies I’m desperately hoping to see abolished in the next administration.

It really had nothing to do with the geography of origination, despite my spittle flecked epithets, but more to the calm, self – satisfied pronouncements that somehow, to believe that america might once again live up to her ideals was nothing more than believing in a crappy old black and white movie.

And I’ll say it again, without asking for quarter or apology.

Fuck a whole bunch of that.

Lesley. You are not my enemy. And I don’t believe you should be. But if you are not willing to accept at least the POSSIBILITY of a positive outcome, you and I will not find common ground.

The whole idea of warfare, and I’m not in the least bit sorry if you find my worldview warfare centric, I’m not sure why this should be surprising, is to achieve goals through violent coercion, and if you are of the opininion that this is an inevitable outcome, than you should say so.

But if you think that the militaristic imposing of ideological will upon people who would choose another path is not just wrong – headed, but wrong, then you need to recognize that we need to put our power behind someone who can take this vision for the future and try to make it real, and hope for that outcome.

And if you think this is naive or stupid, you need to get outta the way, because the belief has power, and the power of the beliefs will push you out of the way..

mikey

It was unthinkable in the last election that Bush could pull off another win. Indeed, the exit polls all suggested Kerry had won. As Mark Crispin Miller has documented, widespread election fraud got Bush re-elected.

Why does anyone think this isn’t going to happen again?

On the condition that he switch to an all asparagus and arugula diet for the time between when the cold shriveled black heart stops and the time they put it in the ground.

Seconded!

Mikey, re… Canadians: Eisenhower was a supporter of the United Nations at a time when his Repub fellows were not. To the complaints that the UN “allowed” all the crappy little principalities and dictatorships entirely too much time & attention for non-stopped pissing & moaning about Ugly Americans, he had a very concise explanation which included the phrase “the tyranny of the weak”. Basically, in a situation where one (or a very few) actors have a vast advantage in size, power, military strength, etc., the other actor(s) must use whatever edge they can muster via filibustering, appeals to higher standards, moral outragae, and similar traditionally-feminine tactics.

When it comes to America(n) versus Canad(ian), we are & have since the mid-1800s been & for the forseeable future will always be The Big Noisy Family in the North American neighborhood. We came in and razed a nice timbered lot, threw up a giant crappy McMansion, vinyl-sided it in several loud & clashing colors, stuck really tasteless lawn ornaments everywhere, and now we spend every hour from grey dawn until the small hours throwing loud parties, revving our gas-driven power tools & unmufflered vehicles, screaming & yelling obscenities at our fat snivelling sticky horrible offspring, and generally making pests of ourselves. The fact that we’re really good-hearted people who would give you the shirt off our backs (assuming anyone wanted an I’M WITH STUPID tee in size XXXL) is sometimes forgotten in the spasm of sheer annoyance when we play the “pull my finger” routine… for the fourth time… at the same bar-b-que…

OK, that sounds like a plan.

Assuming I find that out I help elect better folks. Simple, and people are doing it now.

And when you find out that it’s because the Democrats refuse to take risks, and also because the American public doesn’t want to hear the truth, what will you do then?

Jillian is incredibly fucking smart
No argument from me.

and you’re some internet malcontent getting worked up by someone saying something you disagree with.
Finally, a middle name I can be proud of!

Democratic party malaise aside, this country is crawling with bigots who need no incentive to vote for the white guy.

If you’re going to analyze, figure out a way to win over the 20% of Ohio Democratic voters who said that race was an important consideration in their candidate choice, of whom 60% voted for Clinton.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0508/10609.html

In cursive.

Do I win?

mikey

No methodological flaws conceal the fact that people are willing to vote for McCain. It’s reasonable to think McCain’s cause is lost anyway, but holy fuck.