What’s with the “Gospel of Thomas” thing? The “Gospel of Thomas” isn’t part of the bible, Christians believe the bible dumbass

Had a certain dumbass read the post, said dumbass would have found an acknowledgement of that right in the post that the dumbass is complaining about because he is a dumbass.

So whatever point you purport to prove about Islam is irrelevant because you can make it say anything.

You’re a classic internet kook Debi. You don’t know when the very very long arguments you’re making implode. I suggest abandoning the internet for the medium of paper attached to light-posts with electrical tape.

Classic…explain again how sheep’s bladder may be used to prevent earthquakes.

(They say this is comedy site, nonetheless, we are talking–at least I am for a bit here–seriously.)

With respect to your comments on the following hadith;

Jihad (Kitab Al-Jihad)
Dawud :: Book 14 : Hadith 2526
Narrated Anas ibn Malik:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, “There is no god but Allah” and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action;”

To your statement above: You are Muslim, thus, when you question the veracity of the above hadith, which I quoted, surely you do so mindful you are declaring untrue not my statements but those of Allah, spoken by his Messenger, Abu al-Qasim.

My point is, Mandos, if you study your religion as I do, you then know, that Islam really has a ton of elasticity to it. As the above hadith shows.

In the above hadith, in one breath as it were, Muhammad gave all believers both strict orders as well as expansive leeway when they fail to comply with the strict orders. Allah, via his Messenger, allowed that in Islam. Hence my statements.

Here’s another hadith that shows that:

The Book of Zakat (Kitab Al-Zakat)
Muslim :: Book 5 : Hadith 2175
Abu Dharr reported: I went out one night (and found) the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) walking all alone. There was no man with him. I thought that he did not like anyone walking along with him. So I began to walk in the light of the moon. He, however turned his attention to me and saw me and said: Who is this? I said: It is Abu Dharr. Let Allah make me as ransom for you. He said: Abu Dharr, come on. He (Abu Dharr) said: So I walked along with him for some time and he said: The wealthy persons would have little (reward) on the Day of Resurrection, except upon whom Allah conferred goodness (wealth). He dispensed it to his right, left, in front of him and at his back (just as the wind diffuses fragrance) and did good with it (riches). I went along with him for some time when He said: Sit here. And he made me sit at a safe place and there were stones around it, and he said to me: Sit here till I come to you. He went away on the stony ground till I could not see him. He stayed away from me, and he prolonged his stay. Then I heard him as he came back and he was saying: Even if he committed theft and even if he committed fornication. When he came I could not help asking him: Apostle of Allah, let Allah make me ransom for you, whom were you speaking on the stony ground? I heard nobody responding to you. He (the Holy Prophet) said: It was Gabriel who met me by the side of the stony ground and said: Give glad tidings to your Ummah that he who died without associating ought with Allah would go into Paradise. I said: Gabriel, even if he committed theft and fornication? He said: Yes. I said: Even it he committed theft and fornication? He said: Yes, I again said: Even if he committed theft and fornication? He said: Yes, even if he drank wine.
———————————————————————————————-

As such, every Muslim, from the most secular Muslim to the proud mujahid, can find sanctioning of their actions in the Islamic sacred text, if you know what is in those texts.

Because, as the above ahadith, and more, shows, irrespective of any sin, or any good, that a Muslims does he should never be culled out of the fold of Islam.

What more can a Muslim do besides those acts forbidden or those permitted or obligatory?

Thus, repeatedly, it is stressed, the most important thing in Islam is that one, at the minimum, remains true to the brotherhood. True to the basic invitation that Muhammad–who was clearly a man with great vision, as such, when Islam was in its germination stage, he saw and thus imported into Islam, many pre-Islamic Arabian traditions that would aid and fortify his quest, amongst those, selah rehmi—first delivered to those that Gabriel instructed him to approach.

Thus this overture, which he posed to the first of his would-be converts, his tribesman, the Banu ‘Abd al-Muttalib:

He said, ‘Banu ‘Abd al-Muttalib, I have been sent to all men in general and to you in particular. Now . . . which of you will swear an oath of allegiance to me to become my brother, my companion, and my inheritor?’ (Tab. vi, p. 91)

(that to soon be available for inheritance, of course, was war booty.)

He said that to those who knew the substance of the Arabian pre-Islamic tradition of selah rehmi (good treatment of one’s kindred, to include the guarantee of protection of life, honor, and property; the assurance of the help and support from your clansman and kinsman to accomplish that end).

The oath of allegiance to that is, in truth, the branch on which Islam budded and then flourished.

(Hence, the sever penalty to those who, breaking that oath, choose to leave Islam.)

Not long after this, of course, came the pacts at Aqabah. The second pack of Aqaba being the pledge of war.

Because of the oath taken there, “when God intended to honour [sic] them [the first few Muslims] and to help His apostle and to strengthen Islam and to humiliated heathenism and its devotees,” He did so by the strength in the oath taken there at Aqaba. [Sirat Rasul Allah; ibn Ishag, p.202]

And what was that oath? “I am of you and you are of me. I will war against them that war against you and be at peace with those at peace with you.” [ibid. p. 204]

The above paraphrased, God helped his apostle and “strengthen Islam and . . . humiliated heathenism” by making the defending of the Prophet and his religion a core tenet on Islam.

Back to the leeway in Islam: this next hadith leaves out the merciful and simply adds some of the various methods in which one can meet their Islamic obligation to partake in jihad:

Jihad (Kitab Al-Jihad)
Dawud :: Book 14 : Hadith 2497
Narrated AbuUmamah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: He who does not join the warlike expedition (jihad), or equip, or looks well after a warrior’s family when he is away, will be smitten by Allah with a sudden calamity. Yazid ibn Abdu Rabbihi said in his tradition: ‘before the Day of Resurrection”.

Back to why I state, those who claim to be Muslims are those who live by the guidelines provided for them in the Islamic Sacred texts–this sums that up:

“It is not permissible for any human being to rush onto the field and charge another [Muslim] with unbelief on the basis of opinion . . . otherwise the torrent would flood the valley floor, and not a Muslim would remain on the face of the earth, except a few.” [Reliance. p.952]

Mandos, as a Muslim, you know there is no end to the number of “enormities.” The scholars of Islam recognize that as well. So did the Prophet. Because of that, the above ahadith. As well as the above consensus.

Why do I refer to “the Reliance” as a one of the reliable sources on which to take info on what is lawful and unlawful in Islam?

Because that book is the product of the best scholars of Islam and scholars of the science of Arabic–If men such as Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Nasa, abu Dawud, ibn Kathir, and others just like them do not know Islam, no one can.

Amongst that list of enormities listed in Reliance, [31], the enormity of, “Thinking badly of a Muslim or not giving him the benefit of the doubt.”
So too, the enormity of, “abandoning the sunna” and “harming the friends of Allah (awliya’) and enmity towards them.”

My point, defending the Prophet, his religion, and those in his ummah is a salient Islamic command and tenet. One can do a lot, and still be a Muslim, but if one breaks their oath of allegiance to above, that’s a serious offence.

Hence my statements, that those who claim to be Muslims are indeed those that use the Islamic Sacred texts as their guide, live by what is in those texts—there is actually much elasticity in Islam.

Respectfully,

dl

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, “There is no god but Allah” and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist).

As a relatively necessary statement that

1. Muslims shouldn’t be killing each other over trivial doctrinal disputes. (Even though, in the modern world, they are.)

2. That life is going to be a struggle for some Muslims in one place or another until the end of the world, and history has borne that out.

There are no meetings. Or, at least, I haven’t been invited.

You do understand this is a humor site, no?)

My answer: no. I did not. Thanks for explaining that. That accounts for the lack or reality here. Thanks for pointing that out.

Prior to Ben sending me the post at this site that inferred I was a fictional character, I’d neither heard of nor visited this site.

[Your attempt to proselytise a bunch of comedians shows the depth of your intolerance.]

“Proselytise?” You really are a comedian, “no”?

(I can understand your need to justify the mission of your son, the US Infantryman. Justification of one’s family’s choices and actions is only natural.)

Indeed, you are a comidian.

(Don’t you think your choice “to simply see, what one feeds on daily, if indeed, one is feeding of the Islamic Sacred texts” while making it your “duty to know our enemy” could lead to a distortion of the subject you study? Like maybe only seeing the texts that support your prejudices?)

No sir. Not when I ask the Muslims to show me true Islam, and the books they delivered or the stores they pointed me to, were books I received, bought, and thus read.

(As Sadly, No!’s “Fun With Other People’s Religions” posts show, there are thousands of lines of text to choose from and not all lines of text can be taken at face value. All religious texts are interpreted by pastors, reverends, priests, yogis and imans. Even bible study is guided and schismatic. )

As I stated, FF, I take the interpretation Allah gave to Muhammad, and Muhammad gave to his companions, and his companions gave to the ummah. And once to the Ummah, the best scholars of Islam and of the Science of Arabic then all agreed upon and sanctioned as the Law of Allah.

(Back to your “extremely Secular Muslim…[who] turned hateful and threatening…when [I] spoke of the Islamic Sacred texts.” Go ahead, provide a better explanation than I did.)

Sorry, FF, life demands we have priorities, and your request there is a cost of my time. For now, providing that to you is by no means a priority.

Happy trails to you.

dl

You do understand this is a humor site, no? Your attempt to proselytise a bunch of comedians shows the depth of your intolerance.

I can understand your need to justify the mission of your son, the US Infantryman. Justification of one’s family’s choices and actions is only natural.

Don’t you think your choice “to simply see, what one feeds on daily, if indeed, one is feeding of the Islamic Sacred texts” while making it your “duty to know our enemy” could lead to a distortion of the subject you study? Like maybe only seeing the texts that support your prejudices?

As Sadly, No!’s “Fun With Other People’s Religions” posts show, there are thousands of lines of text to choose from and not all lines of text can be taken at face value. All religious texts are interpreted by pastors, reverends, priests, yogis and imans. Even bible study is guided and schismatic.

Back to your “extremely Secular Muslim…[who] turned hateful and threatening…when [I] spoke of the Islamic Sacred texts.” Go ahead, provide a better explanation than I did.

Well Debi, the assertion was made that people don’t follow the holy books and you quote the books to say they do. Whether or not you agree with the initial assertion your evidence makes non-imbeciles chuckle.

November 2, 2007 at 1:55

. . . . our troops . . . are currently being killed and maimed in defense of a foreign Islamic government?)

Good point, Rufus.

What’s more, that is a point I have been pressing and laying on the table for as long as we have been doing the above. My son, amongst those sent to die in our effort to fortify a nation governed by Shiite Islamic Fundamentalist. Any American who supports our troops being spent in such an effort is a damn fool.

I am one Gold Star mother who prefers the “comfort” of facts in place of a Band-Aid soak in excrement handed to me from the Bush White House, telling me, my son died for our freedom.

Horst shit–He was spent in our nations effort to establish an Islamic Fundamentalist Government.

That is what Dawa is all about.

And Establishing the Dawa supported, Maliki lead government in Iraq, is, after all, our stated mission in Iraq.

Good point, Rufus. Indeed.

Respectfully,

dl

Sorry, TM, I must disagree with you there.
Facts in the Islamic Sacred text prove your statement wrong, if , that is, I presume, we are talking about those who claim they are Muslims.
Because I spend my days in the books they—the Muslims—pointed me to in my Quest to know Islam, I can tell you, there are few acts, if any at all, that I have witnessed Muslim do, from the most secular to the proud mujahid, that are not actions allowed, ordered, or praised by the Islamic Sacred text.

[WTF?])

Bubba, to your WTF. You seem to be confused, wondering what the above is: let me break it down for you:

TM stated, “Most people don’t act on these books.”

To which I responded, stating, that the facts in those (Islamic Sacred text) books that TM stated most people don’t act on, those facts in those books prove TM’s statement inaccurate.

[RB: That has not one fucking thing to do with what you quoted.]

Since the only quoted material I had posted at this site, to this point to where you are responding, is the ahadith I quoted in my original e-mail sent to Ben and others, which, Ben then posted here, I must assume, that is the “quoted” material you are referring to.

The ahadith I quoted, which you state have nothing to do with the material in the Islamic Sacred text, are these:

To make the Heart Tender (Ar-Riqaq)
Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 76 :: Hadith 509
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Allah said, ‘I will declare war against him who shows hostility to a pious worshipper of Mine.

Jihad (Kitab Al-Jihad)
Dawud :: Book 14 : Hadith 2526
Narrated Anas ibn Malik:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, “There is no god but Allah” and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist).

Funerals (Al-Janaa’iz)
Bukhari :: Book 2 :: Volume 23 :: Hadith 483
Narrated Abu Huraira:
When Allah’s Apostle died and Abu Bakr became the caliph some Arabs renegade (reverted to disbelief) (Abu Bakr decided to declare war against them), ‘Umar, said to Abu Bakr, “How can you fight with these people although Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever said it then he will save his life and property from me except on trespassing the law (rights and conditions for which he will be punished justly), and his accounts will be with Allah.’
” Abu Bakr said, “By Allah! I will fight those who differentiate between the prayer and the Zakat as Zakat is the compulsory right to be taken from the property (according to Allah’s orders) By Allah!
If they refuse to pay me even a she-kid which they used to pay at the time of Allah’s Apostle . I would fight with them for withholding it” Then ‘Umar said, “By Allah, it was nothing, but Allah opened Abu Bakr’s chest towards the decision (to fight) and I came to know that his decision was right.”

Laws of Inheritance (Al-Faraa’id)
Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 80 :: Hadith 747
Narrated ‘Ali:
We have no Book to recite except the Book of Allah (Qur’an) and this paper. Then ‘Ali took out the paper, and behold ! There was written in it, legal verdicts about the retaliation for wounds, the ages of the camels (to be paid as Zakat or as blood money). In it was also written: ‘Medina is a sanctuary from Air (mountain) to Thaur (mountain). So whoever innovates in it an heresy (something new in religion) or commits a crime in it or gives shelter to such an innovator, will incur the curse of Allah, the angels and all the people, and none of his compulsory or optional good deeds will be accepted on the Day of Resurrection. . . . . And the asylum granted by any Muslim is to be secured by all the Muslims, even if it is granted by one of the lowest social status among them; and whoever betrays a Muslim, in this respect will incur the curse of Allah, the angels, and all the people, and none of his Compulsory or optional good deeds will be accepted on the Day of Resurrection.”
Jihad (Kitab Al-Jihad)
Dawud :: Book 14 : Hadith 2497
Narrated AbuUmamah:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: He who does not join the warlike expedition (jihad), or equip, or looks well after a warrior’s family when he is away, will be smitten by Allah with a sudden calamity. Yazid ibn Abdu Rabbihi said in his tradition: ‘before the Day of Resurrection”.

“Oh you who believe! Fear Allah. . . . If you do not, take notice of war from Allah and his Messenger.” Al-Baqarah: 278-9

Now to your statement that the above ayat and the above ahadith have noting to do with what we were discussing, which is the Islamic Sacred text: Bubba, those are quotes from the Islamic Sacred text.

And in those quotes, the Islamic tenet that, no matter what a Muslim does, he should never be called an unbeliever or put out of the fold of Islam, if he, once he has uttered the shahada, is willing to remain, at the minimum, true to the band of Muslim believers.

These words from this hadith sum it up:

Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, “There is no god but Allah” and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously.

If the connection there between those words and the Islamic Sacred text misses you, and the connection between what is written in the Islamic sacred text and thus what is in those who claim to be followers of that faith, then, there is not much I can do to reason with you.

To “fracas_futile” he said,
(Let me see if I’ve got this right. You invited some homeless, non-head-scarfed, Muslim man into your house, sat him down in your kitchen, served him some pop-tarts with sprinkles, then asked him when he forsook his countrymen and gave up on jihad?
And you were surprised when he didn’t respond well to your lecturing on the evils of his childhood/home-land religion?
And you don’t understand why he yelled out “STFU” when Mz Alian harangued him about the irrationality of religion in a rational world while he was trying to relieve himself in your downstairs bathroom?
Who woulda thought.)

I guess, FF, since you provided the details to the above scenario, I can only say if I were as foolish as you were that the above is what I would have done.

For such idiocy, or those who dream-up such idiocy, I have no time.

Happy dreams, ff.

dl

Let me see if I’ve got this right. You invited some homeless, non-head-scarfed, Muslim man into your house, sat him down in your kitchen, served him some pop-tarts with sprinkles, then asked him when he forsook his countrymen and gave up on jihad? And you were surprised when he didn’t respond well to your lecturing on the evils of his childhood/home-land religion? And you don’t understand why he yelled out “STFU” when Mz Alian harangued him about the irrationality of religion in a rational world while he was trying to relieve himself in your downstairs bathroom?

Who woulda thought.

Sorry, TM, I must disagree with you there.

Because I spend my days in the books they—the Muslims—pointed me to in my Quest to know Islam, I can tell you, there are few acts, if any at all, that I have witnessed Muslim do, from the most secular to the proud mujahid, that are not actions allowed, ordered, or praised by the Islamic Sacred text.

WTF? That has not one fucking thing to do with what you quoted.

However, verily I say unto you that because you can be stupid in an infinite variety of ways, it must follow in Debi logic that you ARE stupid in an infinite variety of ways.

(Tender Mercenaries said, November 1, 2007 at 23:59:
Most people don’t act on these books.)

Sorry, TM, I must disagree with you there.

Facts in the Islamic Sacred text prove your statement wrong, if , that is, I presume, we are talking about those who claim they are Muslims.

Because I spend my days in the books they—the Muslims—pointed me to in my Quest to know Islam, I can tell you, there are few acts, if any at all, that I have witnessed Muslim do, from the most secular to the proud mujahid, that are not actions allowed, ordered, or praised by the Islamic Sacred text.

I’ve neither heart nor desire to argue with you or anyone else, nonetheless, I would assume, given you spend valuable time here, you would regard facts.

I do just that. And the easily provable facts are those I stated above.

( I bet a lot of Muslims have only a vague idea of what is in the Koran just like a lot of Christians have only a rudimentary understanding of the Bible. Move further away from the canonical texts and you’re likely to find even less knowledge.
Now some people may act on what the religious leaders tell them about these books, but that’s different. )

Indeed, point made. The Islamic preachers and teacher will teach the message of Islam, which is that that is found in their sacred texts.

Islamic Schools, in our nation and eleswhere, will likewise teach the message of Islam, which is that found in the Islamic Sacred texts.

(Most people deep down don’t give a shit about religion in everyday life. They may call themselves Christians or Muslims and they go through the motions (Sunday Mass, Friday prayers, etc.), but it’s an identity, not a way of life.)

There again, I do understand what you are stating.

Moreover, I know, in part what you stated there is true. Nonetheless, Islam is diffent.

I know that for a number of reason. Amongst those reasons, the fresh lesson that I just recently had with an extremely Secular Muslim (whom I extended nothing but an open heart and home to).

He turned hateful and threatening to me–and to Ayaan Hirsi Alian, who is an Atheist– when, she and I both, in seperate settings, and different forums, spoke of the Islamic Sacred texts.

Bottom line, facts show, as we have seen in Iraq, when push comes to shove, a Muslim lives by the book.

I state that only because I know what is the Kitab Allah.

I’m crunched for time here, but in short, all who claim to be Muslims will, at the minimum– and that is acceptable in Islam–live true to the pledge made by some of the very first Muslims who, at the second pledge at al-Aqaba, swore to the pledge of war.

It broke down this way: “The apostle spoke and recited the Quran and invited men to God and to commending Islam and then said: “I invite your allegiance on the basis that you protect me as you would your women and children.”

How would you, TM, protect your family?

That is what part of the core message of Islam. Hence, the Muslim is the brother of the Muslim. As such, Allah-ordered to defend, protect, hide, and cover for the Muslim.

Every bit of that, right out of the Islamic Sacred texts.

(A person’s proclaimed religion has little or no relevance on whether he or she is a generally good person or not.)

Agree. We define what we are by all we say and do.

Respectfully,

dl

Project much Christianists?

Hmmmm. See: christian demonization and persecution of teh gaye. I do believe that some christian have created casualties in that war already…

Also see: christian demonization, harrassment, and persecution of people who are pro-choice. I’m not sure if there’s been anyone killed in that holy wars since Eric Rudolph was weaned off of his christian enablers. Lots of lives, families, and businesses ruined though.

Where Islam has sufficient strength and can get away with it, they murder, rape and burn. Not only in Darfur…

Where christianity has sufficient strength and can get away with it, they murder, rape and burn. Not only in the Deep South…

Righteous Bubba said,

Ben’s really pretty stupid. He’s like a comic-book version of an asshole.

I would like to suggest a slight amendment to that statement:

Ben’s really pretty stupid. He’s like a poorly drawn comic-book version of an asshole that thinks he’s a genius.

The footnotes written by Hilali & Khan, while non canonical, serve to verify the obvious meaning of the ayat.

Qur’an, Hadith, Tafsir & Fiqh agree on the mandatory obligation to conquer the world. There is good reason for linking the evidence I use to Islamic source documents: it leaves fools with no excuse to claim mistranslation, perversion, distortion & twisting. Fiqh is based on the Qur’an. Here it is again:
O-9.8: The Objectives of Jihad
The caliph (o-25) makes war upon Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians (N: provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax (jizya, def: o-11.4) -which is the significance of their paying it, not the money itself-while remaining in their ancestral religions) (O: and the war continues) until they become Muslim or else pay the non-Muslim poll tax (O: in accordance with the word of Allah Most High,
“Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden-who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book-until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled” (Koran 9.29),
That’s Islamic law, and it is based on one ayat: 9:29. Allah’s command is law. Its so simple that you libtards can’t comprehend it.