Fortunately, most of the accounts I’ve heard from that war also differ from your experience as a killer and crippler of innocents.

I am not belittling your experience as a veteran, or your suffering from PTSD, but…

I can’t believe people still try this one.

This rhetorical technique, common on talk radio, consists of making an stunningly brazen attack on someone, then immediately playing innocent.

It works better on radio because in print, people can go back and see what you just said.

Chuck, if you’re going to try scoring points by belittling someone’s experience as a veteran, don’t play hide-and-seek about it.

But I have also seen the good. I have been warmly welcomed and praised by Iraqis for what we have done. For most Iraqis, the worst day of our “occupation” is better than the best day under Saddam.

We are guests of the current, democratically elected (with complete suffrage), Iraqi government. Not a provisional authority, mind you, but a constitutionally elected government.

Not all in Iraq is roses, I’m the first to admit that. But believe it or not, the “man in the street” feeling is that we are welcome; we keep them generally safe, and we have made their lot in life exponentially better.

From farm villages to the heart of the Diyala province (which was my sector of operations) I found that to be the norm. Those that hated us were by and large NOT the everyday population. Most often, the guys I caught with IEDs, AKs, RPGs, mortars, etc were either foreigners–Iranian, Jordanian or Syrian, or they were Iraqi “outsiders”–not from the local area.

If villages felt safe enough (because of our presence) they would tell us about the “outsiders,” often leading us to them or showing us where to look. If the village was not a secure area, then the people were generally reticent outside, but once indoors (and out of sight/sound of the bad guys) they were very friendly and often great hosts. They may or may not give up the bad guys, but they were very seldom hostile.

Not everywhere in Iraq is like this, but it is getting better, honest. I am not pushing an agenda or supporting any political ideology when I say that. Overall, Iraq is changing for the better. It will take years, possibly decades, but it is getting better. We are succeeding. We are helping them take responsibility for their country, as well as giving them notions of civic duty and responsibility, as opposed to the former model of despotism where things happened only when they were told to do them.

The Iraqi Army is not filled with cowards, they don’t run when being shot at. Perhaps that was the norm in the beginning, but when I reached out of the canal after being blown up, it was one of my Iraqi counterparts who pulled me up. I’ve seen them defend their headquarters and checkpoints against overwhelming odds, and fight until they themselves were badly wounded–with the full understanding that their medical care would be at a third-world hospital. (Of course, I changed that, and My Iraqi soldiers received the same care as my American soldiers.) I treated them as allies, period.

Leaving them to twist in the wind and suffer civil war, with heaping helpings of influence from Syria and Iran is not something I am willing to do. If our presence keeps outsiders at bay, then I think we should stay. I think we have an obligation and a responsibility to help their democracy flourish.

But hey, I’m just a dumb soldier.

But what’s the point? I experienced war and I learned it is a terrible, destructive, ugly and so often unnecessary waste. I both recognize that there have been times historically when war was necessary, and a quick look at my criminal history would quickly disabuse you of any notion that I might be a pacifist.

But Iraq was a war of choice. When Hitler invaded france and russia, the world united to roll back those acts of criminal aggression. The same with Kim’s invasion of the south in 1950 and Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait in 1989. Starting unnecessary wars, aggressive invasion of nations with whom you are at peace, military occupation with it’s associated horrors – things are things that civilized societies are opposed to, and that is why I speak out.

In Iraq, we are THE FUCKING BAD GUY! I don’t want us to be the bad guy. I don’t want us to detain and torture, occupy and dominate, stand by and not just watch, but enable ethnic or sectarian cleansing. I don’t want the US to be a war criminal, a rogue nation, a country that takes it’s guidance in foreign affairs from the worst criminals in history, that justifies it’s behavior with the bizarre excuse that the worst of our enemies act that way, so we must.

We are better than that. I WANT us to be better than that. I am not afraid, and I am willing to accept an elevated level of risk to maintain the ideals this nation has, up until this decade, believed, espoused and for the most part lived up to.

I’ll never understand a war cheerleader. But if you’ve seen it, the waste, the sickness, the disease, the crimes and the fear and hopelesness, the destruction and the hate, then to do anything but resist more agressive wars of choice and try to roll back the current occupation is beyond the pale…

mikey

Your Military was resplendent with drug use, low morale, draftees, “go to war or go to jail” cases, and even lower discipline. My Military is the extreme opposite–morale and retention are at record levels, drug use occurs in a very narrow margin, and is hunted down and prosecuted, there is no draft, and we are a much more disciplined organization than any other in history.

While I don’t doubt you’ve had to battle your own demons, being a self-confessed war criminal, mass murder, etc., we don’t often face the “kid with a grenade” scenario. We don’t “do the ville” and we don’t cause needless destruction. Sorry, but that was how your military lost your war.

My views on Vietnam are far from the Oliver Stone model, and even further from the rest of the popular media. My views are based upon my father’s experience as an Infantryman and Medic in the Big Red One (1ID) from 1968-1969, reading factual accounts and through talking with other veterans about their experiences.

Fortunately, most of the accounts I’ve heard from that war also differ from your experience as a killer and crippler of innocents.

I am not belittling your experience as a veteran, or your suffering from PTSD, but I do question your lashing out at the mother of a soldier who gives advice to her son, that she would rather see him come home alive than dead. Surely, it isn’t the spartan “with your shield or on it” advice, and it isn’t the June Cleaver method you espouse of just saying “I love you and miss you, here’s a sandwich and some cookies for your trip” even though mom realizes that her son could be horribly maimed or even killed.

3IDMom told her son that he was to do anything he had to do to return home–not ride home on a wave of blood from the slaughter of innocents. Just that if he had to make a decision between killing or not killing, when there was some confusion as to whether he should shoot, , then he should shoot. Basically, her advice parallels the first tenet of the military’s rules of engagement: You always maintain the right to defend yourself. Second rule: If you are in a situation where you feel that your own life is in danger, or the lives of others are in danger, or designated protected property is in danger, then you have a duty to defend yourself, your soldiers, and/or the property, by whatever means are available to remove the danger.

I think she summed it up much better than that. I also think that her motivations are pure, and she’s not sanguine in her advice. Would you rather a mother who stood on principles, or one who showed that the love of her son and his life was more more important to her than anything else?

Crazy, PTSD’d, or any other way, her son is home and safe. Isn’t that more important and altogether better than the other option?

I got back incorrect change today from the hardware store.

Now I support arson in Malaysia….

mikey

A lot of people can. But you’re the person who wants to torture people in a country that had fuck-all to do with it as a result. I assume that when someone robs the local bank you’ll support arson in Malaysia.

And any mom who thinks that’s in any way helpful, that a boy wants to picture his mom as all gung ho kill and burn and rape and just shoot anybody who gets in your way doesn’t understand what it feels like, the unreality of rotating home from a combat zone.

And I don’t know, and she’s gone now, but I’ll go to my grave thinking that my mom would rather have me come home in a bag with honor than kill a bunch of innocents trying to get home safe. The whole, I count and the rest of ‘em can die, for all I care kind of outlook.

Sadly, I killed a bunch of innocents, and I took a bunch of lives, not all needed taking, and I hurt and crippled and maimed a bunch of people and laughed about it.

But I never told my mom. And my heart tells me she would not have been proud.

Gawd. Where do these asshats come from?

mikey

It. Does. Not. WORK.

All torture proves is that people will say anything to get it to stop. And it may not be the information you need to stop the ‘ticking clock’ scenario popularized by ’24′…which the experts say NEVER happens.

Don’t beleive me? Check out the following links:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/05/AR2007100502492_pf.html

— WWII veterans discuss their views on the subject of interrogation

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/

– Malcolm Nancy, a 20-year veteran of the world’s intelligence community.

OR, you could get all these links and more at http://liz-marcs.livejournal.com/302527.html , which is where I got ‘em

Whoops, I think I just lost the neocons. Aw, dey look so KYOOT When dey sleepin…*sets traps*

and terrorism IN THE UNITED STATES takes fewer lives than lightning each year (I asume you mean in any year EXCEPT 2001?) and you attribute this to… ignoring it or because we remain vigilant?

as for my son, I need not apologize for anything… he is my bigest fan and I, his. couldn’t be prouder of him… but I’ll convey your concern. he’ll be touched.

The US certainly can’t be loved, after so many decades of violence against civilians around the world. But fear turns to hate, which engenders violence. Thus the brutality that you’re supporting, and all the brutality from past decades (which you seem quite ignorant of), causes hatred and violence.

I’ll say it real simple: US actions in other countries led to the hate that led to 9/11. 3000 innocent people died because the US is hated and feared. How does that help your case?

Can you think of just one scenario where torture is acceptable?

You’re making an unwarrantable assumption here: that torture is effective. It’s not. Intelligence professionals will tell you that any intel gained from torture is highly unreliable, because people will say anything to stop the pain. And the ‘ticking bomb’ scenario is about as common as hen’s teeth.

My daughter and son have never done anything to them, but they’ll still kill them, horrifically at that, just to make what amounts to a political statement.

Exactly, exactly, what many Iraqi parents are saying about you.

You cannot simply pit armies against each other, and when one Army is victorious in battle, assume that all will be forgiven and the other side will relent The civilian population must also lose it’s will to resist, and capitulate.

What fucking armies?!? Okay, deep breath. There. All better.

If you want to beat terrorism, you don’t do it with armies. Again, any intelligence professional will tell you this: the way to beat terrorism is through painstaking gathering of intelligence, police work, building networks, slowly developing trustworthy connections with other nations, developing contacts. All the unglamorous work that genuinely works against terrorism. Oh, and by not wilfully and wantonly killing civilians, which only breeds more terrorists.

Honestly, can’t you see what you’re doing? Before 9/11, Osama bin Laden was unknown to most of the world: now, he’s a household name. The US response has made him seem powerful, and popular amongst the dispossessed. The sensible response would have seen him caught and brought to justice and his network disbanded. Instead, the government refused assistance, alienated potential allies, and turned the US in a few short years from the victim to the bully.

Again, I’ll say it simply: the US government has done more for OBL than he could ever have dreamed. They’ve made him a hero, and they’ve made thousands flock to his banner, instead of catching him and making him just another criminal.

You question methods, I see results. When it comes to warfare, the only thing that matter is results.

As I’ve said before, this is not war. This is terrorism: different tactics are needed.

as for those that believe acts of terrorism and violence against American citizens and residents is acceptable, are you volunteering yourself and your families? didn’t think so.

No-one here believes acts of terrorism are ever acceptable, regardless of the nationality or religion of the victims.

I am sorry that women and kids get killed but that is war.

The war was not their choice, idiot. Iraq was not responsible for 9/11. So you’re killing innocent Iraqis for someone else’s crime. Do you believe that’s fair?

And your comment above sounds very like some of OBL’s pronouncements. Does it bother you, that you think like a terrorist?

And when they mix in with civilians, do not wear uniforms, you have to make a choice, right or wrong, if you do not you come home in a box.

Of course they mix with civilians: they are civilians. You’re fighting to impose an occupation, not fighting a war. The Iraqi army has already given up. And there’s an easy way to reduce US casualties: get out of their fucking country.

Huh. Proof you can provide a teachable moment, but some idiots simply cannot learn.

Yes, tough guy. You do what you have to in combat. Actually, I did quite a bit MORE than I had to, in the sense I can think of a number of lives I took that I didn’t need to take.

What I learned in war is that war is the single most stupid, wasteful, destructive, ugly, horrific waste that humans can perpetrate on other humans. And if you didn’t learn that lesson, your humanity is defective.

But if I recall correctly, one of the things I was “fighting for” was the right of Americans to dissent. I fucking well dissent, and I say I earned the right to do so. If you think I shouldn’t dissent, just exactly were YOU fighting for?

mikey

Learn to read. Pointing out that the Al Qaeda threat has been blown out of proportion is not the same thing as saying terrorism is acceptable.

Hello??? nothing to fear but some random violence? like 9-11?? like embassy bombings? like blowing up US ships? like plans to blow up bridges, tunnels, schools and hospitals? you’re kidding, RB, right? any level of violence against Americans is unacceptable. shame you didn’t read the rest. your loss.

I think where we differ is in the assumption that any level of violence against Americans justifies any level of retaliation against anybody else anywhere in the world. I.e., Iraq, a country that had nothing to do with any violence against Americans, but that’s had hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties since the invasion.

Besides which, these ‘plans to blow up bridges, tunnels, schools and hospitals’ have mostly turned out to be bogus. We have to be a little straight about that.

Hello??? nothing to fear but some random violence? like 9-11?? like embassy bombings? like blowing up US ships? like plans to blow up bridges, tunnels, schools and hospitals? you’re kidding, RB, right? any level of violence against Americans is unacceptable. shame you didn’t read the rest. your loss.

I am sorry that women and kids get killed but that is war. And when they mix in with civilians, do not wear uniforms, you have to make a choice, right or wrong, if you do not you come home in a box.

That’s because it’s a civilian insurgency. As in, you’re occupying their country, they don’t want you there, and they’ll shoot at you to make you go back to your own country.

Let’s achieve some perspective here. If foreign soldiers were occupying the US, and they were like, “Well, it’s too bad we’re killing all these American children, but hey, it’s a tough job conquering America,” you wouldn’t be like, “Oh man, I know just how you feel.”

Everyone is always talking about ‘moral relativism,’ but here’s your moral relativism writ large. It’s okay as long as it isn’t us.