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Single White Nation ISO Citizen, 35+, Must Love Torture
This post, from Small Wars Journal, is causing quite a stir among right-wing bloggers. A complete and unequivocal rejection of torture by a US Navy combat veteran and intelligence expert who once supervised a program that taught American troops how to resist waterboarding, it naturally must be disputed by our domestic no-hopers who have bought fully into the idea that we have the right — nay, the obligation — to use the rack and screw. But it’s proving harder than usual; they can’t just call this guy a traitorous terror-loving commie snake like they would a civilian or a Democrat. After all, this is a military man, a front-line terror warrior, a FOX News expert, for goodness’ sake.
Still, they’re trying (very trying). Some, indeed, are trying harder than others. Take famed right-wing milblogger Uncle Jimbo at Blackfive, for example; in his latest post on the virtues of a police state, he has this to say:
his best friend (left)
The activities of those operating on the dark side are undertaken in the dark for two reasons. First so no one can see what is happening, and second no one can see what is happening. The reason that character is so important in choosing a President is that the Commander in Chief powers are almost unchecked. If our national security depends on it the President can do pretty much whatever he deems necessary. This must be so and it we need to know our leader is capable of taking the often harsh actions needed to keep us safe. Anyone who advocates closing CIA’s rendition and “ghost” prisoner operations is too naive to serve as Commander in Chief even if they can get elected President.
Let’s recap that, for those of you who are slow readers: Uncle Jimbo is arguing here that anyone who does not advocate the use of torture and secret prisons should be disqualified from fulfilling the duties of the President.
Let’s recap it again, because probably a number of you have had your brains freeze up and may be in need of a quick jumpstart: what Uncle Jimbo is saying is that even if the American people were to elect someone who is, inexplicably, not in favor of torture and secret prisons, that someone should not be allowed to command our armed forces.
Let’s recap it one more time, because there is a slight possibility that it is insanely crazy and we might wish to put it in simple words so we can appreciate how crazy it is: The official position of Uncle Jimbo is that being an advocate of torture and secret prisons should be a requirement for being President.
President of America!
Gavin adds: Um, wait; I’m trying to puzzle this out. If someone not in favor of torture and secret prisons is elected President, but is perforce ‘unqualified’ to serve as Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, then. . .um, what precisely are we talking about here?
Leonard responds: Well, Gavin, I’m not one to speak for the mentally ill fascist contingent, but perhaps what Uncle Jimbo is suggesting is that if we elect some insufficiently pro-torture weak sister, they should be allowed to be President and do, you know, presidential stuff, like lowering taxes and making sure homos can’t get married, but they shouldn’t be allowed to be Commander-in-Chief and boss around the military. That job, I assume, would fall to a more qualified imperator like…oh, I don’t know, what’s Bill Boykin up to these days?
Max Power said,
October 30, 2007 at 3:24
Conservatives: Torture and secret detention are necessary tools in the fight against fascism.
Paddy Mac said,
October 30, 2007 at 3:26
That would be “Fuerher” or “Commissar” of America, you revanchist swine!
” If our national security depends on it the President can do pretty much whatever he deems necessary.”
Booooring! Let’s recalll the orginal, and best, formulation: “If the President does it, that means it’s not illegal.” Why allow national security to interfere?
alec said,
October 30, 2007 at 3:29
Gavin adds: Um, wait; I’m trying to puzzle this out. If someone not in favor of torture and secret prisons is elected President, but is perforce ‘unqualified’ to serve as Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, then. . .um, what precisely are we talking about here?
Well, obviously, we take the difficult work of governing out of his hands and give it to a sort of Super-Secretary selected for competence. Can we count on you to help put America in qualified hands again, General Butler?
Rightwingsnarkle said,
October 30, 2007 at 3:34
Well, I won’t be following links over to that place again anytime soon.
Those are some sick, demented people over there, with scattered thinking types asking, simply, “WTF?!?”
Here’s just one tiny indicator of the extreme level of self-delusion suffered by Uncle Jimbo (somehow, I can’t believe the South Park character of the same name is as malevolent) - “I never said it (CIA’s extraordinary rendition) was a perfect system, but it’s such an extreme step that it is unlikely we have scarfed up many if any innocents.”
So, yeah, if they’re suspects, well, that proves they’re guilty and should be chopped into small pieces and used as chum.
Words fail me. I’m gonna see what’s up on my MythTV.
MrWonderful said,
October 30, 2007 at 3:39
With this –pass the oxygen, please–we attain glorious new heights (and highs!) of un-self-aware authoritarian-o-philic splendor, including but not limited to:
1. “character is so important in choosing a President.”–Implying that Geo. W. Bush, AT LEAST, THANK G-D, has “character.” Yes, Bush, the most morally compromised and weak-charactered President in memory, if not in history.
2. “…the President can do pretty much whatever he deems necessary.” If Stalin or Mao had written this–not that they haven’t–Uncle J. would denounce it in no uncertain terms. With this vacuum-of-space absence of awareness of what the U.S. Constitution is all about, the obliviousness of this citizen is impenetrable and complete.
3. Anyone who opposes the use of torture “is too NAIVE” (my emphasis)–When in doubt, play the Maturity Card. And when not in doubt, play it anyway. “I can’t be stupid (and I don’t have to be smart) if I call you naive!”
Arky said,
October 30, 2007 at 3:39
I don’t approve of torture but I do approve of sitting Uncle Jumbo on a hot plate until he can tell me where in the Constitution he read the part about “pretty much whatever he deems necessary.”
And third so no one can see what is happening and fourth, so the terrorists stub their toes and fifth so no one can see what is happening and sixth WHAT THE FUCK IS HE SMOKING?
This is stunning display of abject pussitude. I wonder if Jumbo would agree to sit on a hot plate if it would keep us safe?
Leonard Pierce said,
October 30, 2007 at 3:58
So, Arky, let’s recap.
Q: Why is it dark?
1. So no one can see what is happening.
2. So no one can see what is happening.
3. So what is happening cannot be seen.
4. So that seeing cannot take place, in terms of what is happening.
5. So that the number of people who can see what is happening is none.
6. So that, if the question is posed “Can anyone see what is happening”, the answer is “no”.
7. So that happenings of any kind remain unseen by anyone.
Thoroughness. That’s the mark of a keen mind.
rob (formerly) in toronto said,
October 30, 2007 at 4:04
And they say that wingnuts aren’t funny.
What, you mean that was serious?
Holy shit
mikey said,
October 30, 2007 at 4:04
Let me invite you into my world. The scariest, most butt-puckering day of my life. Then we’ll have a little quiz.
When I was still aviation, before the powers that be decided they needed another eleven bravo for cambodia, I was on a routine ash and trash run on a huey. The rotor gears decided they had done enough for freedom and democracy, and in a fit of pique (hey, it’s a french word) they seized up, and we gently autorotated down into the middle of boonie-ville, about twelve klicks from anything resembling safety.
Five of us “souls” on board, no super heroes, no navy seals, nobody with more than a clue and a half to rub together. Middle of a triple-canopy jungle with no marked trails. Oh, by the way, a place pretty much OWNED by the bad guys. We took three rifles, five grenades and three canteens, plus a first aid pack and a notoriously balky emergency radio and we set out for a nearby firebase we thought we could find.
Now. We had officers. And we had, thank goodness, a Sergeant, because without a Sergeant we would have been even more well and truly fucked. But we started out, land navigating like we knew what we were doing, going overland in in the stifling heat, the buzzing insects, the snakes and spiders and all the shit a bunch of Americans didn’t know how to even contextualize, let alone deal with.
But make no mistake. We laughed, we joked, we propped each other up. But we were SCARED. Ask yourself. Why? Why were we scared? What was so truly frightening of a nine mile walk through the outdoors? We were afraid of being captured. Captured and tortured. Captured and tortured and killed. I had a pistol, and I want you to understand, very clearly, that pistol was not for self-defense. If we were going to get overrun, I was going to flip my own switch. Because the thing I hated them for, the thing I’d kill them for, the thing I hated and feared more than any other thing is the things they would do to me if they “had” me.
War is ugly. A guy looms up out of the dark on night ambush and you hit him over and over again until he goes down. But that kind of stool-liquefying terror that comes from the possibility that you might be given over to the tender mercies of the animals we are fighting cannot be described, or experienced until you have the lifelong misfortune to experience it.
We walked as quietly as we could, we kept our eyes on the perimeter, we kept that goddam pin loose in the grenade, not because we thought we could win a fight. Just so we could end it before they got us under control.
Outcome? We walked to a firebase, and uneventfully ended up inside the perimeter of an arty battery. And our guys sent out a new chopper to get us. But here’s what you gotta think about. You gotta think about the things we were willing to do to keep from getting taken, because we KNEW they would torture us before they killed us. Now, you gotta realize that the whole world knows that surrendering to US forces means you will be tortured.
What have we created? Where was the win? And how will we ever get our humanity back? I don’t wish that terror on anyone, but my advice to an iraqi or afghani insurgent is simply this. Be prepared to eat a bullet, wear a grenade, before you let these evil fuckers take you. Because they will hurt you in a way you cannot recover from, and there is no battlefield evil comparable to that….
mikey
Pere Ubu said,
October 30, 2007 at 4:08
If someone not in favor of torture and secret prisons is elected President, but is perforce ‘unqualified’ to serve as Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, then. . .um, what precisely are we talking about here?
When he/she does a photo op with the troops, they won’t be required to stand behind the Preznit and yell “UUUUURAAAH!” at appropriate moments.
It also means he/she better have a bodyguard when visting military bases.
commie atheist said,
October 30, 2007 at 4:09
Anybody here live in the S.F. Bay Area? I say we go over to Berkeley, kidnap John Yoo, and introduce him to the subleties of waterboarding, so he can see first hand what his legal expertise is making possible. I mean, he wouldn’t want to advocate something he hadn’t experienced first hand, would he?
ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© said,
October 30, 2007 at 4:23
Gavin adds: Um, wait; I’m trying to puzzle this out. If someone not in favor of torture and secret prisons is elected President, but is perforce ‘unqualified’ to serve as Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, then. . .um, what precisely are we talking about here?
What we are talking about here, former citizen Gavin, is that if a large number of soon to be former Americans decide to elect a C-in-C who is not in favor of torturing the brown people, in sharp contrast to Julie Annie and the Mitt-Stir, than those now-former-Americans should all be sent to Git-Mo for a taste of their own medicine!
Who’s with me? Pammy?
Lesley said,
October 30, 2007 at 4:28
a number of hardass dictatorships are within easy flying distance of the US, so why aren’t the rightwing nutsos relocating? simple: there isn’t a single country in the world outside of the united states that can supply a combination of torture, raunchy republoporn, 57 channels with nothing on, and an endless supply of cheetos.
tommy yum said,
October 30, 2007 at 4:44
Um, I don’t want to demean your cut-and-paste abilities, but I think the real Uncle Jimbo quote is this:
“The activities of the Commander in Chief powers are undertaken in the dark for two reasons. First so no one can see what is happening, and second flap-a-doodle boing boing trout behemoth. The reason that character is so important in choosing a President is that knock knock. Who’s there? Banana. Banana who? Banana light bulb.”
There. I feel better.
Me said,
October 30, 2007 at 4:45
they can’t just call this guy a traitorous terror-loving commie snake like they would a civilian or a Democrat.
Sure they can. They just haven’t gotten around to it yet. Haven’t you been paying attention? The guy could be a Medal of Honor winner, they’ll still smear him if they can’t find a way to argue with him.
Legalize said,
October 30, 2007 at 4:53
Modern American conservatism:
1. Torture - check.
2. Secret prisons - check.
3. Aggressive war - check.
4. Blank check authority to the executive - check.
5. Worship of authority, and hatered of those who do not worship authority enough - check.
The scariest thing about this “concept” of theirs is that they are (a) advocating a president with essentially endless powers, and (b) only troubled by this idea to the extent that the president might not do enough awful things. The 200 year old idea of checks and balances, due process, fairness, equality, and love of human rights doesn’t even factor into the mix.
This is the way criminal organizations ordain “bosses.”
OneMan said,
October 30, 2007 at 4:54
Hey mikey? Thank you for painting that picture. You put me right there in the jungle with you, as much as that is possible for a guy who was lucky enough not to have had to serve (just post Vietnam for me).
And your point? Excellently put although it could also be mentioned that the other team will fight a WHOLE LOT harder to keep from being captured, because what do they have to lose?
Finally, thank you for your service.
-OM
Me said,
October 30, 2007 at 4:54
Oh, and Mikey, great post. I actually had never thought of it that way, but you’re right. We already know that the enemy is willing to kill himself. How is giving him more reasons to kill himself going to help us?
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:00
Shalom gentlemen. I have returned.
Candy said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:02
This jimbo dude is seriously freakin’ disturbed. Doesn’t he have any relatives or real-life friends who can intervene? I wouldn’t want this man living next door. He’s the kind of guy who’d get pissed because someone’s dog barked at night, but wouldn’t call the cops or even shoot the dog; he’d grab it and do unspeakable things to it. This guy is very snarkalicious but at the same time one is mocking him, just trying to get one’s head around his personal philosophy (for want of a better word) causes a sick lurch in the belly. He’s about eight different flavors of all fucked up.
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:05
Funny how you liberals decry about torturing islamo-facsists and yet say nay a word about the slaughter of the un-born.
Lawnguylander said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:05
Shalom gentlemen. I have returned.
Have you returned to “strike down our liberal fallicies” again? And where’s Bruce? Have you seen him? Don’t make me waterboard you.
Leonard Pierce said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:06
That IS funny!
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:08
I shall strike down your liberal fallacies with the truth which is known pnly by conservatives. We are the truly enlightened who don’t believe all the liberal lies of thr drive by media.
Lesley said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:12
Shalom gentlemen. I have returned.
women exist only in the bedroom and the kitchen.
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:13
I have been away for quite a while because of my rabbiac duties however I have returned with the strength of a lion and the wisdom of a rabbi.
stringonastick said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:14
Thanks for the reality check Mikey, you bring up points I’ve never heard anywhere else, and that’s because you’ve lived it. And that is one damned fine point you made there; I’m sorry about what you had to go through in order to be able to make it. Peace to you in all ways possible Sir.
stringonastick said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:16
Oh Christ on a pogo stick, not this asshole again. Oh well, get the popcorn and draw up a chair, it’s going to be a long night. Not for me though, something much more interesting (trimming my toenails) beckons.
J— said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:19
Shalom gentlemen. I have returned.
I must’ve been out of town when this one first showed. Could someone please give me a primer?
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:20
Torture is sometimes necessary to break hardened terrorists and to show the world that the great USA means business, and will not let attacks on its citizens go unpunished.
Spokane Moderate said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:21
Let’s recap that, for those of you who are slow readers:…
Let’s recap it again, because probably a number of you have had your brains freeze up and may be in need of a quick jumpstart:…
Let’s recap it one more time, because there is a slight possibility that it is insanely crazy and we might wish to put it in simple words so we can appreciate how crazy it is:…
Gavin adds:…
Leonard responds:…
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow it down a little there, captain. Give me a sec to wrap my head around this.
So, what yer sayin’ is Uncie Jimbo believes those candidates who would secretly use the most extreme powers of the presidency - even those that are illegal and may constitute war crimes - are the only ones with sufficient character to serve as commander-in-chief?
Lawnguylander said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:29
J-,
I think it started here. :
One of the most boring and pointless trolls I’ve ever seen. I think it’s “seth” in that thread too. It’s been here under other names too. Like “tasteless”
Sadly, Cambridgeport said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:29
Well, while we are torturing we may as well bring back the Inquisition. Sorry, Rabbi Saul, it’s the only way to strengthen our moral fiber or something.
mikey said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:31
Torture is sometimes necessary to break hardened terrorists and to show the world that the great USA means business, and will not let attacks on its citizens go unpunished.
Think so, eh, motherfucker? Well. I’ve broken every commandment ever issued by your asshole god, and here’s my proposition to you. You think torture may sometimes, reluctantly, be necessary? You realize, of course, that the national leadership might change suddenly, on a whim, without repudiating your repugnant opinion, and suddenly YOU might be an enemy of the state?
Tell ya what, pissant. You and I will go in a metal container. With an agreement. Somebody will open the door in seventy two hours. And one of us will walk out. You really wanna play this game? On this level? ‘Cause I’m pretty sure you haven’t got the stones to live up to your bullshit…
mikey
billy pilgrim said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:32
I’m with J–
But saul is at least funnier than Kevvie, and has the same sort of otherworldly zen to his pronouncements of the Real, One True Gary.
g said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:32
Now there’s a perfect example of the argument by non-sequiter.
“Funny how you liberals decry about torturing islamo-fascists, yet say nary a word about Fill In The Grievance of the Week.”
I’ll play:
“Funny how you liberals decry about torturing islamo-fascists, yet say nary a word about the wholesale destruction of Ficus trees on Second St.”
Or - one of my favorites: “”Funny how you liberals decry about torturing islamo-fascists, yet say nary a word about the cruel and unusual sterilization of squirrels in Palisades Park.”
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:33
Torture is appropriate when used in a very limited fashion, such as against Kaleed Shiek Mohammed when we made him confess to the Daniel Pearl beheading among other atrocities.
g said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:35
I have returned with the strength of a lion and the wisdom of a rabbi.
Oh, sorry. “Funny how you liberals decry about torturing islamo-fascists, yet say nary a word about the violent slaughter of wise rabbi[t]s by strong mountain lions.”
Sadly, Cambridgeport said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:35
Torture is appropriate when used in a very limited fashion, such as against Kaleed Shiek Mohammed when we made him confess to the Daniel Pearl beheading among other atrocities.
Yes, and now we finally know who shot J.R.
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:37
Mikey my friend when will you leftists stop with your threats and personal attacks. You only do those things because you don’t have the intelligence to debate me on the issues.
Simba B said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:38
The truly notable fact is, I think, that a right-wing milblogger actually goes by the name ‘Uncle Jimbo’ and it’s not a satire.
As far as we know.
nate said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:40
I have returned with the strength of a lion and the wisdom of a rabbi.
“I feel like I have the strength of a bear that has the strength of two bears!”
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:41
George Tenet our former intelligence chief and another cia operative who’s name I forgot both mentioned on the O’reilly Factor that torture can be very effective when used appropriately.
Sadly, Cambridgeport said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:41
Besides the obvious point, “anyone will confess anything under torture”, forcing a confession has to be the stupidest justification I have ever heard.
So now that we know that we have a surefire way of proving guilt, what are we going to do? Continue torturing until he says he is sorry? HAH! I knew it was you, now you’re going to get it! I’m so glad we decided to torture this guy. And you thought he might be innocent!
Lawnguylander said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:43
I picture saul snickering like Squidward after every inane comment he posts so here’s some very special pie for him.
g said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:44
we made him confess to the Daniel Pearl beheading among other atrocities.
Well now, isn’t this interesting. I thought the proponents of torture claimed that we ONLY tortured people for reasons of vital, urgent national security - you know, to stop the ticking time bomb. Instead saul thinks we need to torture people for confessions of crimes against persons.
Its a bad old world, and there are an awful lot of horrendous crimes against individuals. You can pick a handful of murders committed in the US that are just as horrendous as the murder of Daniel Pearl. How are you going to distinguish the cases where its OK to torture people to get them to confess? And what kind of urgency is there to gain a confession, after an irreversible murder? With your logic, what’s to stop you from extending it to routine crimes?
No, you want to torture as a punitive device.
The torture-lovers like saul pretend they have some kind of moral purity about their love of torture, but in reality, they just want to institute a police authoritarian state for their own sadistic pleasure.
Sadly, Cambridgeport said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:45
Mikey my friend when will you leftists stop with your threats and personal attacks. You only do those things because you don’t have the intelligence to debate me on the issues.
See, brutalizing other people is intellegent and reasonable, but whenever saul or another conservative is in any physical danger, it is simply reprehensible.
You’re a real lion there, buddy.
g said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:46
whenever saul or another conservative is in any physical danger, it is simply reprehensible.
Oh, hell, let’s not beat around the bush. It’s not just physical danger - whenever someone says something mean about saul or another conservative it is simply reprehensible.
J— said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:47
Thanks, Lawnguylander.
mikey said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:48
You only do those things because you don’t have the intelligence to debate me on the issues.
You’re right about me. I’m a thug. The US made me go kill for them. Then they sent me home to prey on my fellow citizens. I’m not smart. I’m not educated. I’m a blunt instrument.
And the thing you are too fucking stupid to realize is if you keep creating a society of mes, you are not going to be able to control us. You want to take away all the rules so you can fuck around with arabs and muslims, because you are full of hate and fear, and what you are creating is a society that may get pissed at your ass one day, and you won’t be able to prevent us from killing you and your family.
You fuckers are so consumed with racial hatred you can’t even see you are sowing the seeds of your own destruction. You create a population inured to killing, you have nothing to protect you, except the gun, and you don’t know how to do that because you never had the stones to do it yourself. I’m not in your tribe. I don’t owe you shit. And I have the skills you made me learn.
You assholes better think carefully about what you’re creating, as if it’s not too late. Because the warriors don’t give a fuck for your stupid ideology, and they won’t even waste a tear after they put you and yours in the ground. You’re creating this world. But you don’t have what it takes to dominate it…
mikey
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:49
I said the Daniel Pearl beheading” AMONG OTHER THINGS”! He also confessed to planning the 9/11 attacks. And yes the circumstances in which torture is necessary is most often to prevent further terror attacks. The confessions just happen to be a side benefit.
g said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:52
The confessions just happen to be a side benefit.
Of your wet dream.
Sadly, Cambridgeport said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:52
The confessions just happen to be a side benefit.
Not to mention the money saved on rentals from Pornucopia.
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:53
And yes I know how to use firearms. I go to the range every week. I own a Bushmaster AR-15 Carbine, a Glock 32c 45 caliber handgun, a maverik 12 gauge pump action shotgun. And I can bench press 360lbs. So Mikey I don’t play around.
g said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:54
saul, why aren’t you in Iraq, as a member of our armed forces?
Snorghagen said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:55
I have returned with the strength of a lemming and the wisdom of a rabbit.
I remember this particular troll from his earlier appearance. He seems to be an adolescent - but whatever his age, he’s an exceptionally tedious little twerp.
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:55
I’m not in Iraq because I’m a 50 year old Rabbi.
Leonard Pierce said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:56
Boy, it just wouldn’t be a right-wing troll without a creamy dollop of phony tough-guy talk.
You know, one time I tortured a wino until he confessed to planting a ticking time bomb in Grand Central Station, and also to eating the Lindbergh baby. And sure enough, after I tortured him, there was no explosion in Grand Central Station! So it was totally worth it.
g said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:56
I think there are men your age serving. You could go work for Blackwater, protecting our diplomats.
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:58
Enough of this childish name calling lets debate shall we.
Leonard Pierce said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:00
Yay! Okay, let’s debate. I’ll start.
“Resolved: the Glock 32C is not a .45-caliber handgun, but rather a .357. People who claim otherwise in an attempt to seem super-bad-ass are phony tough guys, and also liars, and no possible good can come of debating them.”
Rebuttal?
tb said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:01
Quit fucking around with this “president” nonsense and just call him a king, you cunt.
Righteous Bubba said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:01
I’m not in Iraq because I’m a 50 year old Rabbi.
You mean a six-foot, three and one half-inch-tall rabbit.?
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:02
Very smart of you. However I have it in .45 caliber. They make in both ways I believe.
Righteous Bubba said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:02
Enough of this childish name calling lets debate shall we.
Resolved: Saul slurps the anuses of the goats Mickey Kaus is finished with.
Sadly, Cambridgeport said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:03
Quit fucking around with this “president” nonsense and just call him a king, you cunt.
Don’t be silly, kings aren’t popularly elected, they are hereditary members of a dynasty… oh.
g said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:03
You know, here’s the other thing about the torture issue.
We tortured a guy who had a name similar to a bad guy, cause we thought he was the bad guy. We tortured a cab driver from Afghanistan who drove some other guy. We tortured a herdsman because the warlord down the road from his warlord wanted to get some bounty money. We tortured the neighbor of a target in Iraq - because the target wasn’t home, but the neighbor was.
We tortured about 100 guys and one of them actually happened to be a bad guy, and happened to give up a bit of information that could only be useful if corroborated by other aggregate bits of information, some of it gained by torturing some other cab drivers, herdsmen, guys with similar names, and neighbors.
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:03
The ammunition is .45 caliber.
mikey said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:03
Hey saul? I say you’re a chickenshit pansy.
Take your glock and shove it up your ass.
Then bring all your other toys along. I’ll wear lingerie. And a santa hat.
And I’ll make you eat those toys, one at a time, until you die.
Know why? Because you don’t know how to hate.
And unfortunately for me? I certainly do.
mikey
Samuel said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:04
“And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day.”
Saul, I warned them about you.
Scumbag.
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:04
Prove it. There is no evidence innocent men have been tortured.
Righteous Bubba said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:05
The ammunition is .45 caliber.
No it isn’t. It’s bing bong silly pants caliber.
Candy said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:05
Wasn’t it previously determined that Saul is no rabbi? Or rabbit either, for that matter. I am fuzzy on the details.
Saul, just admit it. You get off on voyeuristic fantasies of watching torture. Too squeamish to participate yourself, and not ambitious enough to become a serial killer, you just want to watch, don’t you? We all know you do. You and that jimbo and all your ilk. It’s so transparently obvious.
You guys had better hope there’s no vengeful god with a sense of right and wrong. If there is, you are fucked.
g said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:06
There is no evidence innocent men have been tortured.
The federal government has ADMITTED that innocent men have been tortured.
Idiot.
commie atheist said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:06
Meanwhile, Greg Sargent discovers Confederate Yanqui:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/2007/10/wingnut_blogger.php
You knew this was coming: The prominent winger blog Confederate Yankee is actually calling for a boycott of The New Republic’s advertisers over the Scott Thomas Beauchamp affair. The call to arms has been linked approvingly by Michelle Malkin, and is now being touted by the usual parade of whackjobs and misfits who tend to goose-step along behind this sort of stuff.
Confederate Yankee is very, very serious about this. He’s got lists of advertisers and everything. There’s a lot of heavy breathing about coverups and the like. And he’s even caught the magazine in another lie: To wit, one of the companies listed says that it hasn’t advertised with the mag in a long time, but the mag’s media kit nonetheless says that it’s a “recent advertiser”! Really, you can’t get anything past this Confederate Yankee fellow. He’s mighty quick.
Sadly, Cambridgeport said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:06
Very smart of you. However I have it in .45 caliber. They make in both ways I believe.
…
The ammunition is .45 caliber.
You see, his theoretical gun does, he believes, exist. And anyway, maybe the gun isn’t .45 caliber but the ammunition definately is. Machismo, like patriotism, is a parlor game, my friend.
g said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:07
“a six-foot, three and one half-inch-tall rabbit.”
saul is no Elwood P. Dodd.
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:08
Mikey. Hatred is a sin. The Lord says love thy neighor. And while I certinely don’t agree with you and your liberal friends politically I don’t hate you guys, your just ignorant of how great this country is.
Righteous Bubba said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:09
Mikey. Hatred is a sin. The Lord says love thy neighor.
Proof that Saul fucks horses.
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:11
You lefty trolls watch the Republican debate last week. Looks like Fred Thompson is gonna take the nomination. Hillary is toast.
g said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:12
saul comes here and advocates torture and then he goes all sanctimonious about “love thy neighbor?” It’s a wonder the corrosiveness of his hypocrisy doesn’t dissolve his bones away like hydrochloric acid.
I’m done with you, saul. It was fun parrying with you, but at this point you make me sick to my stomach. You’re inhuman.
Sadly, Cambridgeport said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:13
psssst. saul. dude. you’re supposed to be playing a Jewish guy. Who is this “Lord” that you base your beliefs on?
Righteous Bubba said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:13
You lefty trolls watch the Republican debate last week.
I’ve been working on this for a while. I figure neutrinos plus gumdrops’ll get me to last week if I fritz ‘em just right with the mento-gamma unit.
Candy said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:14
Oh brave new world that has such people in it . . .
Okay, that’s it. It’s a chilly but beautiful night, and I’m going to go out on my balcony among the last of my flowers and sip a small whiskey and then go to bed. I have to cleanse my brain of these crazy wingnut sadists.
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:14
I love you to g.
tb said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:14
HEY SAUL, give me some evidence that a) torture works b) alternatives to torture do not work c) torture is not a violation of domestic and international law d) torture is not a violation of basic human decency.
g said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:15
So, mikey - what’s for dinner where you are?
tonight’s dinner is posole with chicken breast, red chiles, cilantro and hominy, garnished with radishes, scallions, chopped cilantro, and shredded cheese. Mopped up with tortillas. Washed down with a beer, or a california pinot grigio.
What kind of pie is there for dessert?
Samuel said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:15
Saul…
Gey cocken en afen yam.
mikey said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:16
Saul. You idiot.
If somebody was worrying about me sinning, they shoulda thought about that forty years ago. I didn’t wake up one sunny morning on the beach and say “hey, this is boring, wish I could go kill and maim”.
Sinning is what I do. You are stupid beyond all recognition. That is my POINT. You want people to sin for your boner and ideology, and you think you can control that which you unleash.
And that’s why you are stupid beyond measure.
Go away…
mikey
DEMIZE! said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:16
No snark here boys,this ones serious.Torture is only effective at terrorizing a population,not,I repeat not,as an effective intelligence gathering instrument!The Water-board was used extensively by the Clerical authorities in the Auto de Fe.You can see many etchings of it’s use in texts dealing with the Spanish Inquisition.The Church authorities banned the shedding of blood during interrogations so creative methods were devised such as the Strappado,which you can see being implemented in photos from Abu-Ghraib as well as The water cure.La Aqua Pura,The Shower,The Chinese Water Torture or whatever euphemism is being used,it of course to any one not deluded,ignorant, engaging in denial or self deception or completely sociopathic,THIS IS FUCKING TORTURE.If you don’t think it is,or you think it’s not so bad,let someone do it to your Mother or Daughter.That should be the metric we apply.
Robert Green said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:16
saul
1000 dollars. i want a video of you with today’s newspaper prominently showing behind you while you bench press…you said 360 lbs? fuck it, give me a video of you benching 300. that’s fine. put it on youtube, and i’m ready to pay.
see here’s the thing. i don’t think you can bench press that much. i don’t think you can shoot a gun very well, if at all. and i don’t really think you are a rabbi.
i think you are a 16 year old kid living in his trailer somewhere pissed because mom just told him he has to go to sleep.
something i intend to do right now.
shalom, bitch.
InsaneInTheCheneyBrain said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:16
ahhh, one more pie-loving bastard: ELIMINATED
Arky said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:17
saul knows a lot, one might say too much about the US’s highly secretive detention program. He also repeatedly uses word torture when the pResident has said repeatedly and emphatically that the US doesn’t torture.
Ergo: saul is an islamocommiesubversivefascist.
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:17
In the Holy Torah God both loves and kills. There is no contradiction. Genesis 9:26 “He that sheds the blood of man by man shall his blood be shed for in the image of God has God made man”.
Leonard Pierce said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:18
A robust rebuttal! I salute you. It succeeds on one level, the part where you call me smart, but fails on the more important level of being true. It is, in fact, “false”, or, what we in the business call “a lie”. Which, even if I were not an owner of several of the Glock company’s fine firearms, I would know because, since I am not eleven years old, I know how to use the internet. It is possible that you have a Glock 32C that has been “modified” to be able to fire .45 ammunition, I note, anticipating your next lie, but that would be similar to “modifying” a station wagon into becoming an SUV.
Having established in this debate that you have a tendency to lie about inconsequential things, let’s move on to whether or not you lie about more important things, like whether or not you are a rabbi, 50 years old, or a rational human being. I would like to mention, just as an aside, that most of the people who can bench-press over 350 pounds are well-known professional weightlifters or bodybuilders, and none of them that the internet knows about are 50-year-old gun-toting rabbis.
Who’s keeping score in this debate? I have it at 50 million for me and naught for the 11-year-old, but I’m biased.
Robert Green said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:18
oh, and dinner:
organic chicken broiled with salt and pepper, green beans (also organic) in the wok with sesame oil and soy sauce, and fresh corn on the grill with garlic butter roasted in. the kids cleaned their plates!
plus a spectacular smoke-aided cali sunset.
Righteous Bubba said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:19
In the Holy Torah God both loves and kills.
In the Holy Fantastic Four Galactus hungers.
mikey said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:21
Hey g. Thanks.
I went to the doc for a regular update today. She gave me major shit. My a1c came back 7.4, and she was threatening to put me on meds for blood sugar. I’ve had my a1c down to 6.8 with diet and exercise, but I’ve been kind of, er, creative in the kitch the last six or so months.
So I rubbed a top loin boneless pork chop in olive oil and fresh herbs and broiled it fast and clean. I steamed some broccolli with a couple cloves of garlic, and made some cole slaw with sunflower nuts. It was good, and healthy. Now if I can continue to behave, I won’t have to do weird diabetes behaviors next year.
But I do have trouble with austere….
mikey
Sadly, Cambridgeport said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:21
But where in the Holy Torah does “the Lord” tell you to “love thy neighbor”?
Righteous Bubba said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:23
I have it at 50 million for me and naught for the 11-year-old, but I’m biased.
Stop running up the score.
DEMIZE! said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:23
Saul two words NEUTEREI-KARTA BEEYATCH!!1!!!!!
Leonard Pierce said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:23
In the X-Men, God loves, man kills. Also, in the arcade, Sinistar hungers.
I learn so much from the holy scriptures, don’t you, Bubba?
Righteous Bubba said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:24
But where in the Holy Torah does “the Lord” tell you to “love thy neighbor”?
The Song of Solomon.
tb said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:25
Sermon on the mount?
Righteous Bubba said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:26
Also, in the arcade, Sinistar hungers.
RUN! COWARD!
Truer words were never spoken to me in an arcade.
Oregon Guy said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:27
What Mikey sez is true now too.
Any joe would rather be blown to a thousand pieces than be the guy who gets wounded and caught by hajji. And, increasingly, hajji feels the same way.
Sadly, Cambridgeport said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:27
Hahahah, thanks Bubba
You know, a lot of barely pubescant fundie boys that I knew growing up used to jerk off to that in the church stalls. It was the only thing that we were allowed to read
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:27
Off to bed for me I’ll see you libs later. I have to help prepare for an upcoming Bat-Mitzvah. Shalom.
Leonard Pierce said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:29
Man, we gotta get that kid a blog, stat.
Sadly, Cambridgeport said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:29
I have to help prepare for an upcoming Bat-Mitzvah.
Your own?Too easy.Righteous Bubba said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:30
Regarding “love thy neighbour” - although Saul doesn’t know it - there are some precursors in the Jewish faith that come pretty close.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder
Righteous Bubba said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:32
Man, we gotta get that kid a blog, stat.
Surely you have some Renew America pull.
Snorghagen said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:39
At least this time he didn’t start posting under a second name and begin arguing with himself.
Jim said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:41
I have been away for quite a while because of my rabbiac duties
Which, if it were true, would probably mean you would know that “rabbiac” is not a word, but “rabbinic” is.
(Pssst … also “rabbinical.” I know that one cause they use it in Fiddler on the Roof)
Righteous Bubba said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:44
He at least keeps his goofball babbling short. It’s like taking candy from a baby dealing with him, and then you take the candy and beat the baby to death with it if it’s, say a giant lollipop or if it’s licorice you have to improvise some sort of strangling device.
ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:45
Saul, annieangel, kevin…can anyone prove they’re not the same person? (I won’t quibble about personalities…many faces of eve, and all.)
Righteous Bubba said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:48
Saul’s got the typos of Kevin, but is simultaneously less imaginative and more entertaining. I don’t think annieangel was that bad at typing.
Senator Ted said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:48
Mr. Pierce, one quick correction if I may - The purpose of the Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (also known as SERE School) is not as you wrote a “program that taught American troops how to resist”. You do not resist torture, eventually you will tell the torturers everything you know and everything you don’t know. No, the purpose of that particular part of the school is to show students what they are likely to encounter. As I have been told by more than one graduate of SERE, those first two letters (Survival and Evasion) are the most important parts…
BTW - In the Mikey v. Saul, I’ll take Mikey and give the points…
RobW said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:48
saul said,
Very smart of you. However I have it in .45 caliber. They make in both ways I believe.
See, this is called a “faith-based armory.” Never mind that the Glock 32 is not, and never was, made in .45 (that would be the Glock 36), but he believes it to be so, so he has one.
Possibly he has no idea what model his pistol is, because the guy selling it out of the trunk of a car in the parking lot of the gun show had scraped that off along with the serial number.
Or, he’s wondering why the fucking thing doesn’t work. “Superior German engineering my ass!” he thinks to himself as he tries, yet again, to stuff .45acp rounds into another ruined .357 magazine…
Snorghagen said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:52
Actually, I’m surprised we don’t get more wingnuts here. They get chewed up pretty quickly, but you’d think that more would at least put in an appearance.
RobW said,
October 30, 2007 at 6:58
Meanwhile, back in the realm of topical commentary…
The reason that character is so important in choosing a President is that the Commander in Chief powers are almost unchecked. If our national security depends on it the President can do pretty much whatever he deems necessary. This must be so and it we need to know our leader is capable of taking the often harsh actions needed to keep us safe.
Two words for all the wingnuts who advocate unlimited presidential power in the War on Terra:
President Clinton.
I know exactly when they’ll remember about things like limited government, civil liberties, and the Bill of Rights: Jan. 20, 2009.
Herr Doktor Bimler said,
October 30, 2007 at 7:00
This is like one of those theological paradoxes. Does an all-powerful, almost god-like commander-in-chief have the power to renounce the use of some of those powers?
Uncle Jimbo reckons that the answer is ‘no’.
the often harsh actions needed to keep us safe
And I blame this all on modern, risk-averse parenting [mumble mumble mumble] raising a generation of wusses [mumble mumble mumble] none of this “keeping us safe” talk when I was a boy [mumble mumble mumble]
mikey said,
October 30, 2007 at 7:03
See, this is called a “faith-based armory.”
Hee hee. I am SO keeping this. Next time I have to argue with the white shirts, I’m going to explain that they are heretics, I merely maintain a faith based armory….
Crackin me up!
mikey
Senator Ted said,
October 30, 2007 at 7:04
OFF TOPIC TO Mikey - Would you be kind enough to send (I almost said “shoot”) me an e-mail to j(dot)c(dot)smith2 (at) gmail(dot)com? I thank you (and the comments readers for indulging me) - Jim
RobW said,
October 30, 2007 at 7:12
Ooh, thought of another possibility: the guy at the gun show sold him a 40-year old Colt that had “Glock 32C” scrawled on the side in sharpie ink, for which he paid $1500.
g said,
October 30, 2007 at 7:13
Huh - er - wha?
Oh, sorry. I was watching the bio of Charles Schulz on PBS.
Good ole Charlie Brown. How I hate him.
ahem said,
October 30, 2007 at 7:17
Wow, I thought the Banality Troll was limited to Atrios.
And mikey’s right in so many ways. The Iraq experience is going to have a knock-on across the US for the next fifty years.
mikey said,
October 30, 2007 at 7:39
Y’know, the Glock 19 in 9mm, the muzzle flip is ridiculous. You cannot effectively fire a true double tap without killing the sky. Why anybody would think this was a righteous platform for .45 just makes my teeth ache.
I have a Star PD, a Colt Gold Cup, a SIG and an HK USP for .45s. The whole idea of the .45ACP is to take advantage of the knockdown power of the round. The idea is to put a very angry, serious round like the flying ashtray (thats what we called the 200gr SJHP .45 from Speer) on target. Who the hell cares if it’s easy to carry and easy and safe to deploy if you throw rounds all over tarnation. If you want to carry a glock, carry a 9mm. If you can’t use a 9 effectively, carry a big wooden stick. Jeezus.
With .45, you need some weight forward of the magazine, and you need grips that will let the gun recoil straight back into your palm. Muzzle flip will kill inoocent bystanders, and it will kill you.
This has been a Public Service Announcement from the people for Disarming Idiots…
mikey
Johnny Coelacanth said,
October 30, 2007 at 9:17
RUN! COWARD!
Truer words were never spoken to me in an arcade.
Righteous B (as I will now call you) you made me Larf Out Loud. Thanks.
I went to that BlackJive site (and they don’t seem very urban if you ask me) and I saw this: “The fact that unpleasant techniques must be used is the fault of the unpleasant people and is mitigated by the value of the lives saved.”
There ya go. I can hear the pro torture folks yelling: “Look what you did! It’s all your fault we had to shred the Constitution! We can’t have anything nice!”
It would be funny if I didn’t want to cry. Oh, whatever Gods walk the black abyss between the stars, I beseech you, I would give anything to undo 9/11 and go back to believing I lived in a country where the sane people generally prevailed.
a different brad said,
October 30, 2007 at 9:20
I think we don’t get too many wingers because, first, we’re fucking foulmouthed jebuscorpse buggering bastards. (I personally prefer Mary’s corpse, but to each their own.)
Second, we have stuff called facts and higher brain functions to throw at them which, at best, only serves to enrage and confuse them. In a way, we might as well be talking theoretical physics in ancient Greek to many of their ears.
kiki said,
October 30, 2007 at 12:49
Saul gots da mad rabbiac skillz, yo.
“Rabbiac”. Jesus.
javaphil said,
October 30, 2007 at 15:20
I usually come here for the laughs but want to thank Mikey for that excellent tale and the insight into just one of the reasons that torture is so abhorrent.
As to the Uncle Jimbo and the rest of the warpron bloggers: wife-beaters the lot of them. “Why do you make me hit you?” Powerless, pathetic, poop-in-pants whiners the lot of them.
atheist said,
October 30, 2007 at 15:27
(I personally prefer Mary’s corpse, but to each their own.)
Eeeewwwwwwww…..
atheist said,
October 30, 2007 at 15:36
That story was really gripping, Mikey. Thanks for sharing.
Yes, I wish people would look objectively at what the threat of torture does in a battlefield situation, how it could actually harden resistance from an enemy that would rather die than be captured. Conversely, your enemy’s belief that they could be captured by you, and be safe, could actually act as a softening influence on them. An interesting angle.
kenga said,
October 30, 2007 at 15:42
athiest, I’m pretty sure that the “could” in that sentence can properly be replaced with “can, and has” .
Once upon a time, anyway.
Gavin M. said,
October 30, 2007 at 16:10
Well, the ‘C’ models are ported to reduce climb. But the 21C is the only .45 model with compensation.
professor fate said,
October 30, 2007 at 17:10
Saul
Lets just put ourselves in the mindset of say the Spanish Inquistion circa 1400 or so.
“It is sometimes necessary to torture unbelivers so they will confess their sins. This is done to protect holy mother church from their influence.”
Torture is useless as an intelligence gathering device - what it is good for, as the Nazis, the Soviet Union and the Most Holy Inquistion knew, is getting the poor bastard who’s legs are being crushed by rocks to confess to whatever the torturer wants to hear.
you gave the example of the man who confessed to having David Pearl beheaded and planning 9-11. I’m sure after a few more sessions and he would be confessing to making his humas with the blood of christian virgins.
As for miltary service - surely the Army needs jewish chaplins along with their other demonations yes? Hosptials, funerals that sort of thing yes? Have you nothing to donate to the cause?
Putz.
Dan Someone said,
October 30, 2007 at 17:10
Torture is appropriate when used in a very limited fashion, such as against Kaleed Shiek Mohammed when we made him confess to the Daniel Pearl beheading among other atrocities.
Not for nothin’, saul, but I’m pretty sure that you would confess to beheading Daniel Pearl if they tortured you, too. Among other atrocities.
And mikey, I read your story and it’s great, but I fear the main “takeaway” for people of wingnuttiness will be: “See, torture is effective because just the possibility of it scares the bejeebers out of the bad guys!”
Finally, everyone: RABBIAC was the first Jewish computer, used primarily for calculating sunset on Shabbat and the High Holy Days. It would have had more applications, but its design made it incapable of counting past 613. It is currently housed in the basement of a synagogue in Skokie, Illinois, having been rejected by a “restricted” Smitshonian in 1963.
Unclue Jimbo’s Constitution at politburo diktat 2.0 said,
October 30, 2007 at 17:56
[...] whole thing is unhinged, nuts, and dangerous, an excellent target for Sadly No! and John [...]
Duros62 said,
October 30, 2007 at 19:56
#
saul said,
October 30, 2007 at 5:13
I have been away for quite a while because of my rabbiac duties however I have returned with the strength of a lion and the wisdom of a rabbit.
Fixed.
Jon H said,
October 30, 2007 at 20:38
Saul sounds like kind of guy who walks around Salt Lake City in freaky robes with a Mormon girl he abducted.
cynn said,
October 30, 2007 at 20:44
“First so no one can see what is happening, and second no one can see what is happening.”
Of course! Because if no one can see it, nothing is happening!
Duros62 said,
October 30, 2007 at 20:48
Finally, everyone: RABBIAC was the first Jewish computer, used primarily for calculating sunset on Shabbat and the High Holy Days. It would have had more applications, but its design made it incapable of counting past 613. It is currently housed in the basement of a synagogue in Skokie, Illinois, having been rejected by a “restricted” Smitshonian in 1963.
It also didn’t work on Saturdays.
Chris said,
October 30, 2007 at 20:55
Getting back on topic here:
“The reason that character is so important in choosing a President is that the Commander in Chief powers are almost unchecked. If our national security depends on it the President can do pretty much whatever he deems necessary.”
Is completely wrong.
The President has never had the authority to violate the law, no matter what his rationale.
And Congress has more authority over national security issues than the President.
This isn’t a military dictatorship.
Dorothy said,
October 30, 2007 at 21:15
There is no evidence innocent men have been tortured.
Technically, every single person who has been tortured is “innocent” because not a fucking one of them has ever had a fucking trial, or military tribunal, or kangaroo court hearing, even.
But, hey, let’s play along. What do the following people have in common?
Khaled el-Masri
Maher Arar
Yuksel Celikgogus, Ibrahim Sen, Nuri Mert, Zakirjan Hasam, and Abu Muhammad
Shafiq Rasul, Asif Iqbal, Rhuhel Ahmed, and Jamal Al-Harith (a web designer from Manchester, Eng)
Any guesses?
Here’s a hint: it starts with “detained by the US government” and ends with “released without being charged with a crime” or “cleared of all wrongdoing”. It’s the months and years in the middle that have caused all the ruckus.
Doctorb Science said,
October 30, 2007 at 21:23
I have a 55 caliber Desert Eagle. And I can bench press 400lbs and leg lift nearly one thousand pounds. And I have a girlfriend in Canada who is a supermodel. You wouldn’t have heard of her, because she’s Canadian and doesn’t use her real name. Also I meant a one hundred caliber Desert Eagle. And a Browning Machine Gun. No, wait, a Completely Browned Machine Gun.
Righteous Bubba said,
October 30, 2007 at 21:31
The President has never had the authority to violate the law, no matter what his rationale.
We can at least take comfort in the fact that Bush isn’t going to name his horse a consul.
Jerry Falwell's Ghost said,
October 30, 2007 at 22:20
Look, we need to know our leader is capable of taking the often illegal actions needed to keep Congress from looking to closely into national security issues.
Anyone who advocates placing the Supreme Law of the land over some two-bit wannabe shitkicker from Connecticut is perhaps too naive to vote for Commander-in-Chief. Too Naive!
Jim said,
October 30, 2007 at 22:21
damn tags
atheist said,
October 30, 2007 at 22:41
We can at least take comfort in the fact that Bush isn’t going to name his horse a consul.
Actually I wish Bush would do exactly that. He should get a horse or a dog, perhaps a cockatoo, and make it a Congressman. Then we could watch our mentally diseased media talk about how this was a great move by a strong commander in chief, and watch Rahm Emanuel make freinds with the Cockatoo by feeding it seeds, and proclaim it his pleasure to serve with such a distinguished bird in the US Congress. Obama and Clinton would try to outdo each other in making freinds with the bird, only to both fail. McCain, Guiliani and Romney would make a huge stink about how Bush had sold out the country by putting a South American bird on the Congress. They would demand that it be replaced by a Bald Eagle, only to be totally ignored by Bush. Conservatives across the country would seethe in anger over the damn Mexican bird in the Congress, and would put bumper stickers on their car about South American birds taking over the country.
It would be exactly like now, only more entertaining.
Army3IDMom said,
October 31, 2007 at 1:27
Pvt. Menchaca and Pvt. Tucker — not just dead, but tortured. Their unrecognizable bodies dumped at a roadside that had been wired with bombs. According to an Iraqi military spokesman, the soldiers “were killed in a barbaric way”…
Know that in the case of these two soldiers, DNA tests were necessary to determine which disfigured corpse was which. It is not the policy of the U.S. to torture enemy combatants. We do not behead captured enemies. Water-boarding and sleep deprivation — even placing underwear on someone’s head — might be bad to some people, but.disfiguring torture and beheading strike us as the acts of barbarians and monsters. I’ll bet the families of Menchaca and Tucker would have taken waterboarding or underwear for their soldiers any day.
What have we created? Where was the win? And how will we ever get our humanity back? I don’t wish that terror on anyone, but my advice to an iraqi or afghani insurgent is simply this. Be prepared to eat a bullet, wear a grenade, before you let these evil fuckers take you. Because they will hurt you in a way you cannot recover from, and there is no battlefield evil comparable to that…. mikey
Frankly, at the rate we’re going, the enemy doesn’t have to fear much from the Americans beyond tickling with a feather boa. And if you wish the iraqi and afghani insurgents to eat a bullet, wear a grenade, before you let these evil fuckers take you… fine. Whatever works.
Professor Fate said,
October 31, 2007 at 1:39
Army3IDMom
piss off . we’re dropping bombs on towns on the off chance we will kill a few bad guys - fuck the civilians. were setting traps with cell phones and shooting anybody who picks them up. So let’s not get into a pissing contest here - each side is being as frightful as they can.
And what are you really saying that if we were worse had we chopped heads off these kids would be alive? that’s bughouse. insane. Mabye just mabye if we didn’t act like barbarians ourselves this wouldn’t happen. If you remember at the beging of the war our prisoners were treated pretty damn well.
Still the only thing that is going to save the rest of these young men and women is to get them the hell out of there.
again piss off.
ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© said,
October 31, 2007 at 1:40
Whatever works.
We KNOW what doesn’t work, you anti-American bint.
DEMIZE! said,
October 31, 2007 at 2:05
Army3IDMom said, You silly,silly,woman.Maybe your son will get tickled with a feather boa.Then we’ll see when he comes home if he thought it was torture or not.And I usually don’t trust posters with some sort of Military tag in thier I.D.seems always like it’s supposed to be some kind of conversation ender,like I’ve been there,so you don’t know what your talking about,lalala.Torture is MORALLY UNEXCEPTABLE for non savages period.And go fuck yourself!God I despise people like you.
mikey said,
October 31, 2007 at 2:31
but.disfiguring torture and beheading strike us as the acts of barbarians and monsters.
Oh. OK. Let’s be clear on what you are saying, ma’am. They are barbarians and monsters, the evil muslims that simply won’t follow the rules of warfare.
And your argument is we should be MORE LIKE THEM? We should emulate the very tactics you use as a justification for inhumanity? Are you insane, or merely garden variety stupid?
Are you proud of yourself? You taking the same position as Osama bin Laden, as Josef Stalin? Does it make you feel good? What the hell is wrong with you? Why did you and your mindless sheep decide we shouldn’t be the good guys anymore?
You and your ilk use the most foul, deprecating language to describe bin Laden and the society he espouses. And then, in the very next breath, you encourage America to act JUST LIKE HIM!
Yeah. We could become evil, brutal, murdering, torturing thugs. And when we declare victory, what will we have won?
Goddam it, we have nothing to fear from al Qaeda but some random violence, which you might have noticed doesn’t happen all that often. No, the real threat to America, and everything that makes America an ideal, is people like you…
mikey
Righteous Bubba said,
October 31, 2007 at 2:32
Water-boarding and sleep deprivation — even placing underwear on someone’s head — might be bad to some people, but.disfiguring torture and beheading strike us as the acts of barbarians and monsters.
They’re monsters! We should be monsters too!
Jim C said,
October 31, 2007 at 2:42
Waterboarding isn’t torture. We use it on our own troops in SERE school. The “expert” at small wars journal even admits to teaching our troops how to resist it. We also know that it’s effective as KSM sang like a bird when they used it on him.
Jim C
Righteous Bubba said,
October 31, 2007 at 2:45
Waterboarding isn’t torture. We use it on our own troops in SERE school.
That’s because it’s torture dumbass.
Jim said,
October 31, 2007 at 2:47
You know that it’s effective insofar as it makes people talk. That is certainly more effective than Army 3ID Mom’s suggested method of beheading - which I will concede is less effective as a method of extracting information.
So yes, people will sing when you waterboard them, and will cry uncle when you twist their arm, and will give you their popcorn if you threaten to spit on them. It’s all still immoral bullying, and it’s all pretty ineffective as a method of reaching the the truth.
Army3IDMom said,
October 31, 2007 at 2:51
sticks & stones, boys & girls… my, my… testy bunch, aren’t we??
it will always be what you consider “torture” v. what anyone else considers “torture”. I see waterboarding as an acceptible form of interrogation. If you don’t, so be it. It doesn’t make me or you wrong. It’s a free country and you are entitled to your opinion and I to mine. We simply don’t agree. And I certainly did not suggest that we sink to their level of barbarism…heavens no! I am sorry that my comment could not be met with intelligent discussion but rather caused so many to attack and name call. Or is it just the image of poor defenseless insurgents that gets to you and not the image of butchered American soldiers?
And as for my son, I sent him to war with the following instructions: If it’s you or them, make it them. Everything else is for later.
Righteous Bubba said,
October 31, 2007 at 2:55
I see waterboarding as an acceptible form of interrogation. If you don’t, so be it. It doesn’t make me or you wrong.
Yes, it makes you wrong. Live with it, monstress.
mikey said,
October 31, 2007 at 3:14
And as for my son, I sent him to war with the following instructions: If it’s you or them, make it them. Everything else is for later.
Good god. I’m actually shaking. You are a piece of shit as a mother, and a piece of shit as a human. That’s not how you do war. I killed, and I came home fucked up, but I could still see my mom as something pure and untouched by the filth and horror.
You know, you idiot, that your son is going to see and do things you cannot even imagine. And he’s going to come home trying to find an anchor. I want you to, please, listen very carefully and think about it, at least. He doesn’t need you to be a gung ho “kill ‘em all and let god sort ‘em out” kind of cheerleader. If he saw any combat at all, he’s going to need to find a harbor of peace, serenity and love. Honest to god, mom, you fucking idiot, do you think he’s going to come home thinking he’d really like to think about, talk about, do a bunch more killing? Jeezus, you need to talk to some people.
Your boy is going to be something you don’t know anymore. And this kind of crap is going to drive him into a bottle and worse. Maybe he’ll be fine. Maybe nothing can save him. But you need to re-think your stupidity.
Christs tits in a mason jar, I fear for the guys coming home. And trailer - park generals in the place of moms aren’t going to help.
I’m speechless. I’m saddened. I’m looking back over nearly 40 years of trying to bolt my life back together after they took so much of it away, and I’m thinking, if I had a mom like this piece of work, I would NOT be here today.
Gawd…
mikey
Kevin said,
October 31, 2007 at 3:20
Darnit! I can’t poke fun at you guys about how ridiculous this post is tonight because I have to do a thing :(. Grr.
Wait, I could do one… “Gavin says, Um, [...]um, what precisely are we talking about here?”
You don’t have to type the word ‘um’ when you are thinking or saying ‘um’ out loud to yourself while typing a comment. And if you accidentally DO type it, you can use the backspace to fix it. Free FYI!
Can’t wait ’till the weekend. I’ll here for you!
Army3IDMom said,
October 31, 2007 at 3:27
RB:. There’s that name calling thing again. Your momma must be so proud.
If “everyone” agrees it’s torture (and of course that’s not true)… when Congress passed the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 and they attached those measures to last year’s defense authorization bill that banned “cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment” of detainees in the custody of the U.S. military and civilian agencies such as the CIA or the FBI anywhere in the world, why didn’t they specifically list waterboarding?
Because a clear preponderance didn’t agree that it was torture.
I didn’t and don’t advocate that we use the brutal mutilation techniques used by our enemies; however, if it’s a matter of frightening them and depriving them of sleep or making them listen to loud music… just because it annoys them, makes them uncomfortable or scares the bejebus out of them does.not.make.it.torture.
Again, I am certain if all our soldiers worried about if captured was whether they would have to listen to bad music played loudly or were too hot or too cold… or even waterboarding and knew they’d have 3 squares a day, access to an attorney, exercise yards, etc., I know they’d stop worrying like mikey did. I don’t think there are a lot of al Queda or Taliban that are actually scared off by our interrogation techniques. Seriously.
me? a monstress? well, I guess.
Righteous Bubba said,
October 31, 2007 at 3:32
why didn’t they specifically list waterboarding?
Who really knows what kind of craven idiots lurk in congress? Waterboarding’s torture and you’re a torture advocate.
Jim said,
October 31, 2007 at 4:01
If it’s you or them, make it them. Everything else is for later.
Geez, are you sure you didn’t send him over to be a Blackwater mercenary?
No?
Well, at least he has all the training necessary for that lucrative career.
Army3IDMom said,
October 31, 2007 at 4:05
If he saw any combat at all, he’s going to need to find a harbor of peace, serenity and love. Honest to god, mom, you fucking idiot, do you think he’s going to come home thinking he’d really like to think about, talk about, do a bunch more killing?
there’s that name-calling thing again.
mikey, Our son saw many months of combat in Iraq…infantry… 11B… more combat than he or we wanted. Shot at, blown up… and, yes, our son suffers from PTSD… but — as he will tell you — principally due to what he saw al Queda did to men, women and children there… more horrible than any news reports you have read. And, yes, the need for him to have killed bothered him, but he actually knows the difference between the good guys and the bad guys, mikey… and as he’ll tell you, he’ “ok with that in his head.”
Our son is doing well, thank you, and it’s not only because he accepted that he had PTSD and accepted treatment, but also because he came home to a nuturing, loving and supportive family that fully understands and supports him and his mission and his role in that mission. He has discussed with us the things that bother him and he considers his father (two tours in Vietnam) and I his “harbor of peace, serenity and love” as we are for any number of his “brothers” whom we call sons.
When he left,I only told my son what any mother would tell a son going off to war: if someone is