Jul
7

Children in Iraqi prisons




Posted at 8:30 by sadlyno

Yesterday, we posted the video from a German TV report about alleged abuse and detention of children in Iraqi prisons. While the US media remains silent (as far as we know,) this story is getting some coverage outside of Germany. Pete from The Dark Window sends us this link from Norway:

Norwegian authorities reacted with shock and disgust Tuesday to a documentary on German TV that American soldiers allegedly have been holding children in prisons in Iraq, and abusing them as well. The Norwegians joined the Red Cross and Amnesty International in calling for an immediate end to the abuse, and release of the underage prisoners, some of whom are as young as 12 years.

The (partial) translation of the report is below. It was prepared by our staff and Pete from The Dark Window. Links to the original video and text (in German) are below.

Soldiers looking for terrorists storm an apartment. Children are sometimes arrested during these raids. What the Army does with them, it will not say. We investigate. Meet with sources.

One that knows something about this is Sergeant Samuel Provance, from the US Military. He spent half a year stationed at Abu Ghraib. Today, 5 months later, we meet him in Heidelberg. His superiors have strictly forbidden him to speak to journalists about what he experienced in Abu Ghraib. But Provance wants to talk about it nevertheless. His conscience troubles him. He discusses a 16-year old he handled:

“He was very afraid, very alone. He had the thinnest arms I had ever seen.
His whole body trembled. His wrists were so thin we couldn’t put handcuffs on him. As I saw him for the first time and led him to the interrogation, I felt sorry. The interrogation specialists threw water over him and put him into a car, drove him around through the extremely cold night. Afterwards, they covered him with mud and showed him to his imprisoned father, on whom they’d tried other interrogation methods.

They hadn’t been able to get him to speak, though. The interrogation specialists told me that after the father saw his son in this condition, his heart was broken, he started crying, and he promised to tell them anything they wanted.” –Samuel Provance

After this however the son remained in detention, and the 16-year old was put in with the adults. But Provance discusses a special children’s section at Abu Ghraib — a secret detention facility.

One that has seen the children’s section with his own eyes is the Iraqi journalist Suhaib Badr-Addin Al-Baz. Our correspondent met with him in Baghdad. He explains how he was picked up while reporting and jailed 74 days in Abu Ghraib:

“There I saw a camp for kids, young, certainly not yet of puberty age. There must have been hundreds of kids. Some were released, others are certainly still there.” –Suhaib Badr-Addin Al-Baz

From his cell in the adult’s section he hears a girl of maybe 12 years of age crying. Later he found out that her brother was held in a cell on the second floor of the prison. Once or twice he says, he saw the girl himself. [...] “She called out her brother’s name. She was beaten, she cried out “they took off my clothes, they poured water on me.”" –Suhaib Badr-Addin Al-Baz

He heard her cries every day. [...]

These accounts from witnesses are difficult to corroborate. We look for additional proof of the detention of children. We find it at UNICEF, which has written this explosive report, published a few days ago [June 2004, -S,N!]:

“Children picked up in Basra and Kerbala were routinely transferred to a prison in Um Qasr.” –UNICEF

The prison in Um Qasr. These images were shot in 2003. Today, it is too dangerous for reporters to drive to Um Qasr. This facility, a detention center for terrorists and criminals, would have also held children.

“This classification of children as ‘prisoners’ is alarming given that they are held for an undetermined period of time, without contact with their family or expectation of a trial.” –UNICEF

UNICEF will not make any comments about this yet to be released report. [...] We look for additional information and contact the International Committee of the Red Cross. After several discussions, additional confirmation, including numbers:

“Over the course of 19 visits in 6 different detention facilities from January to May of this year, we counted 107 children. These facilities were under the control of coalition troops.” –Florian Westphal, ICRC.

The ICRC found minors in both Qasr and Abu Ghraib. Two international organizations confirm, independently, that coalition troops have jailed Iraqi children. But information directly from the prisons remains unavailable. UNICEF was not able to visit the children’s prison in Baghdad:

“UNICEF asked to visit this facility in July 2003, but access was denied.” –UNICEF

No independent observers have been in this facility since December, according to UNICEF. [...]

During a visit for the press at Abu Ghraib, no children were seen. We stand by our report: Four sources confirm independently the detention of children in Iraq. Two witnesses allege abuse. [...]

–Report by Thomas Reutter.

Contacted for comments, the British Defense Ministry has said its troops have not detained minors and children. We have yet to receive an answer from the Pentagon. –Fritz Frey, Host.

Streaming video from SWR here. Full German transcript here.

Edit: Comments from No More Mister Nice Blog, General Glut and The Dark Window.

Added: Downloadable clip of the TV report. (9MB, RealVideo 10 format.) [The streaming video from SWR is 14MB and of slightly lower quality.]

Also added: Dan Frazier alerts us to a full translation of the Report Mainz story on the alleged abuse and detention of children by US forces in Iraq he prepared along with Angela Petz, posted here.

Related developments here.

101 Comments »

  1. Frederick said,

    July 7, 2004 at 13:51

    It’s good that someone is covering this. If only we had actual (non-whore) media in the United States . . .

  2. Deborah said,

    July 7, 2004 at 15:42

    The US press did cover the Provance accusations a couple of months ago without much traction, eclipsed, perhaps, by the torture evidenced with photos. I remembered because it made me cry-

    Published on Thursday, May 20, 2004 by Knight-Ridder
    Military Analyst Describes Abuse of 16-Year-Old in Iraq Prison

    WASHINGTON – A military intelligence analyst who recently completed duty at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq said Wednesday that the 16-year-old son of a detainee there was abused by U.S. soldiers in order to break his father’s resistance to interrogators.

    The analyst said the teenager was stripped naked, thrown in the back of an open truck, driven around in the cold night air, splattered with mud and then presented to his father at Abu Ghraib, the prison at the center of the ongoing scandal over abuse of Iraqi detainees.

    Upon seeing his frail and frightened son, the prisoner broke down and cried and told interrogators he would tell them whatever they wanted, the analyst said.

    Sgt. Samuel Provance, who maintained the 302nd Military Intelligence Battalion’s top secret computer system at Abu Ghraib prison, gave the account of abuse of the teenager in a telephone interview from Germany, where he is now stationed. He said he also has described the incident to army investigators.

    Provance’s account of mistreatment of a prisoner’s son is consistent with concerns raised by the International Red Cross. The Red Cross noted it had received reports that interrogators were making threats of reprisals against detainees’ family members.

    Provance already has been deemed a credible witness by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, who included the army sergeant in a list of witnesses whose statements he relied on to make his findings of prisoner mistreatment at Abu Ghraib.

    http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0520-07.htm

  3. dividedandconquered said,

    July 7, 2004 at 17:20

    I cried watching F9/11 for the second time – this is as sick as anything I’ve ever read about – Children for pity’s sake – It’s not enough to get the Bush administraton out of the whitehouse – I want them in prison – I can’t deal – please don’t let them get away with this

  4. Oliver Willis: Like Kryptonite To Stupid said,

    July 7, 2004 at 17:53

    What’s Going On?

    Reports are coming out that children may have been abused/detained at Abu Ghraib… Anyone got more on this? (also: the american errorist)…

  5. The Poor Man said,

    July 7, 2004 at 17:53

    More From Abu Graib

    A month ago: [Sy Hersh] said that after he broke Abu Ghraib people are coming out of the woodwork to…

  6. Dorothy M. Ligon said,

    July 7, 2004 at 17:57

    I am ashamed for my country – and I am very ashamed of our media.

  7. e said,

    July 7, 2004 at 18:01

    dividedandconquered:

    No need to cry! F9/11 is almost pure fiction:

    http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20040702.html

    Unless fiction gets to you like that. To each
    his/her own….

  8. Jussi H?m?l?inen said,

    July 7, 2004 at 18:08

    Over a month ago,Seymour Hersh and Christopher Hitchens mentioned,separately,that the worst revelations on prison abuse,the ones involving children,were yet to come.So I can only assume that many other US journalists were also aware of this ‘developing’ story as early as this May.Why it broke in Germany,instead of the US, I don’t know.

  9. smijer said,

    July 7, 2004 at 18:19

    Child ‘Prisoner’ Abuse

    I had no idea. Sadly No! tells us what CNN won’t. I wish our administration and our news agencies at least thought this was worth a denial, if not any other mention….

  10. TW said,

    July 7, 2004 at 18:39

    dividedandconquered:

    No need to cry! F9/11 is almost pure fiction:

    http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20040702.html

    Unless fiction gets to you like that. To each
    his/her own….

    Yeah, don’t waste your time on that link. Yet another case of a rightie nitpicking at things, pretending that Moore’s stated conjectures in the film are presented as facts and, as usual, not presenting a single refutation of a statement of fact in the film.

    The anti-Fahrenheit people have nothing. All they can do is wave their arms and say, “Moore lies.” But they can’t come up with examples of his lying. Read the arguments on the page above and they all reduce to a matter of twisted semantics. In fact, the page misrepresents the very quotes that it claims are distortions. That’d be like someone taking my previous sentence, claiming that I said “All Republicans are total liars,” and then calling the latter statement a lie.

    Is Fahrenheit 9/11 full of lies? Guess it depends on what your definition of “is” is.

    And would “anti-Fahrenheit” be the same as absolute zero? Pretty good description of the arguments these desperate loons are putting forth against the film, that…

  11. War Liberal said,

    July 7, 2004 at 18:39

    I’m sure they all deserved it

    Sadly, No!: Children in Iraqi prisons Torturing children. A special children’s section at Abu Ghraib? This is what it comes to? If this is true, any soldier who participated should be court-martialed, and any member of the government who knew…

  12. Manic said,

    July 7, 2004 at 18:46

    Digital brownshirts like ‘e’ should avoid clicking my ID link. They’ll only upset themselves further.

  13. Available Light said,

    July 7, 2004 at 18:50

    Children at Abu Ghraib

    Jesus….

  14. e said,

    July 7, 2004 at 19:03

    Hi Manic-
    Checked out your site – didn’t upset me at all. You have a right to your opinion, and good for you that you have the vehicle to deliver your thoughts.

    Good stuff all around…

    Just watch that hatred – it’s blinding. Spinsanity thrashes both sides. I’ve found them to be quite fair in their critiques. It’s widely documented that Moore twists and turns on a whim.
    He makes some points in the film, I’ll give him that. It would be nice, however, if the fine folks on the left would at least acknowledge that the man isn’t exactly factually correct.

    Just to be fair, ya know.

    Take care!

  15. bannedmann said,

    July 7, 2004 at 19:12

    Manic and e,

    This thread is about US troops torturing children.

    If you right wingers can ignore the issue of children being taken from their families and tortured by US troops in Iraq just to post the same tired old completely disproven rants about Micheal Moore, you need therapy.

  16. John Gillnitz said,

    July 7, 2004 at 19:16

    Spinsanity, which does trash both sides, tends to stretch their definition of a fact to insinuation. Moore hints at a lot that can not be proven, but he never says it is fact. Most people howling about the truthfulness of the movie have never even seen it. I have yet to see anyone point out a false fact in the movie, much less one that is substantial.

  17. CaptainAmerica said,

    July 7, 2004 at 19:25

    That’s so nice, e, that you mindlessly parrot the right’s ineffectual nitpicking of parts of Moore’s film, while ignoring the overwhelmingly factually correct whole, and while ignoring horrors being done in your name as described above.

    We’ll be waiting for you and the nice folks on the right to finally acknowledge that Lieutenant AWOL hasn’t been exactly factually correct…just to be fair, ya know. I doubt anyone will hold their breath.

    And just watch that hatred….it’s blinding…and the right perfected it. One has to wonder about the hatred required to countenance the abuse of prisoners, including children. One has to wonder about the hatred needed to shamelessly lie to the American people and invade and occupy another country. One has to wonder about the hatred needed to bereave tens of thousands of American and Iraqi families for some neocon wet dream about empire.

    You and yours know all about *that* hatred, right e?

  18. Long story; short pier said,

    July 7, 2004 at 19:27

    Some context.

    Oh, hey: if you’re swinging by from the Willamette Week story, and you’re wondering about the tersely cryptic excerpt, well, here; and here’s the reason why my desk is groaning today: He was very afraid, very alone. He had…

  19. old ari said,

    July 7, 2004 at 19:37

    One just wonders what disgusting news will come out next, everytime I think, it can’t get worse, then it does. God help the world, the americans have gone criminally insane. And they are loaded to the gills with weapons of mass destruction.

  20. Metapop said,

    July 7, 2004 at 20:02

    Report of Abuse of Children at Abu Ghraib

    The political weblog Sadly, No may have just broken a major news story in America of prison abuse of children at Abu Ghraib. Posted is a video of a German news report and a translation.

  21. e said,

    July 7, 2004 at 20:06

    >This thread is about US troops torturing children.

    Good call – apologies for the apparent ‘thread hijack’. Perhaps I’ll see you on another one
    (related to Moore’s film) and will be happy to respond in kind.

    Take care all…

  22. Simbaud said,

    July 7, 2004 at 20:07

    The L.A. Times yesterday ran a story about John Warner’s efforts to procure several documents missing from the version of the Taguba Report that the Pentagon gave to the Senate Armed Services Committee. In graf #20 of the story we learn about a document that was supposed to be attached to an interview of Col. Thomas Pappas:

    “The other, Enclosure 11, outlines at least three investigations for possible nonjudicial punishment after the alleged abuse of two girls, ages 13 and 14, taken to the prison in the middle of the night by CIA agents, the Senate source said.”

    Details at King of Zembla.

  23. Dem said,

    July 7, 2004 at 20:11

    e: No need to cry! F9/11 is almost pure fiction

    Not the parts the poster cried over. Like children with limbs blown off.

    Mr/Ms e: are you the sort of person who will excuse any atrocity as long as it is done by “the good guys”?

  24. ex-lion tamer said,

    July 7, 2004 at 20:20

    rage

    from sadly, no!, this outrage:Soldiers looking for terrorists storm an apartment. Children are sometimes arrested during these raids. What the

  25. e said,

    July 7, 2004 at 20:22

    >Mr/Ms e: are you the sort of person who will excuse any atrocity as long as it is done by “the good guys”?

    Nope – that would be quite heartless. Veering back onto topic, I think that all of the people who committed crimes in that prison should be dealt with accordingly. It was wrong – plain and simple. I don’t hear anyone denying that.

    No one should excuse any atrocity. They are inherently very bad things. I’m sure we are all aware of what happened in that prison for many years. That was wrong as well – and should be dealt with. The *thousands* of children who were tortured there, and in other prisons under Saddsam, should be acknowledged at some point, no?

  26. r@d@r said,

    July 7, 2004 at 20:29

    Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, “Let me take the speck out of your eye,” when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

    Matthew 7.1-5

  27. Stumax.com said,

    July 7, 2004 at 20:42

    Nothing to See Here – Abuse of Power edition

    * “Michael Moore has a blog”:http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/diary/index.php! One thing: where’s the RSS feed?… Don’t make me actually check your website 10 times a day to see if you’ve posted. We’re in the XML age now.

  28. verb said,

    July 7, 2004 at 20:46

    e: The *thousands* of children who were tortured there, and in other prisons under Saddsam, should be acknowledged at some point

    I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone deny that children and adults were abused and tortured under Sadaam. How much time must pass before the excuse, “We torture less than the other guys did” can disappear?

  29. Mercurial said,

    July 7, 2004 at 20:48

    Torturing children.

    And the atrocities continue, now just torturing children! We have now that children torture does indeed exist:Norwegian authorities reacted with…

  30. e said,

    July 7, 2004 at 21:11

    >How much time must pass before the excuse, “We torture less than the other guys did” can disappear?

    That’s not what I said – or even intended. Many people are very angry that the US went over there – and are vehemently illustrating (rightfully so) the very bad things a small group of “troops” did. They should be punished accordingly.

    One of the *many* reasons the US went to Iraq, however, was to attempt to stop some of this insanity. It just seems as if people are screaming much louder at the US than at the people perpetrating vicious crimes all over the world at this very moment.

    It doesn’t make much sense… The US simply can’t be seen as doing anything ‘good’.

    As in the thousands of other troops accomplishing this:
    http://aschoolyardblog.typepad.com/asyb/2004/06/congratulations.html

  31. Last Day of My Life said,

    July 7, 2004 at 21:13

    Madness At Abu Ghraib

    How can our political leaders ask our soldiers to abuse children at Abu Ghraib. The thought alone is sickening. Senator Joe Biden has disagreed with the neoconservatives in the Bush administration, but has called them “patriotic Americans.” I don’t b…

  32. Sullivan said,

    July 7, 2004 at 21:28

    People that think that this is just “a few bad apples” are like alcoholics that refuse to admit that they have a drinking problem. This goes up the chain of command. Let’s not forget Rumsfeld approving the use of dogs.

  33. Simbaud said,

    July 7, 2004 at 21:30

    E,

    How many children would you guess died as a result of U.S. sanctions against Iraq in the nineties? Madeleine Albright copped to 500,000, adding that “the price is worth it.”

  34. dividedandconquered said,

    July 7, 2004 at 21:42

    Dorothy – Sorry to disappoint your brainwashed and closed mind about F9/11 a film you’ve never seen.
    Whether or not you think uncestuously close ties with the Wahabiist Suads, a nation that allows the village Imams to preach hatred of all things American daily, are “good policy,” they exist – prove Moore wrong and win money.
    Bush and Cheney repeated the Mantra of WMD’s and ties to al-Queda as a reason for putting US troops in harm’s way. Both claims have never been proven and worse, it’s now bloody obvious Saddam was no threat to anybody but his own people – like fifty other dictators – Prove Moore wrong and win money.
    Those kids are from the poorest neighborhoods – that’s not a lie – 1 member of 535 Congress people has a child in the service – again – not a lie – disenfranchised, democrat voting, African Americans purged – not a lie -

    I could go further but that risks obscuring my point – You see, Moore presents the facts that he’s dug up – they certainly look sinister – he believes they are, but he doesn’t allege they are ever – that’s for the viewer to decide.

    Go see it for yourself – I double-dog dare you. I took my 16 year old girl and she cried too – by the by, Mr. Moore is a patriot and if you think the polar opposite of that – go discover at http://www.tompaine.com/blogs/ that even the guy from the Volokh Conspiracy doesn’t think that dissent is treason –
    If the mainstream media did it’s job Moore would never have made this movie

  35. jacko said,

    July 7, 2004 at 21:43

    Willfully blind Bush supporters,

    Doesn?t it make you absolutely sick to think
    that this could be even remotely true?
    What all do we really know about it?

    Once again, an allegation is poo-pooed
    by Bush supporters right out of the gate.
    (a la Paul O?Niel, Richard Clarke, etc)
    We have no facts.
    This should be thoroughly investigated.
    Has any American official addressed these
    alegations?
    Who the hell is getting to the bottom of this?
    This soldier?s account of what happened is
    at least a moving, though sickening, testimony.
    Has any knowledgeable official refuted these storys?

    ugh.

  36. jlw said,

    July 7, 2004 at 21:46

    Says e: “The *thousands* of children who were tortured there, and in other prisons under Saddsam, should be acknowledged at some point, no?”

  37. e said,

    July 7, 2004 at 21:53

    >How many children would you guess died as a result of U.S. sanctions against Iraq in the nineties? Madeleine Albright copped to 500,000, adding that “the price is worth it.”

    Sanctions that were designed to “contain” Saddam while allowing for food and medicine to still get through via the “Oil for Food Program”. Why did this program not provide for the people?

    Because it went here.

    More info…

    If those involved weren’t actually pocketing the billions, perhaps some of those children would’ve received the help they needed – and, for heaven’s sake, should’ve received.

    Sactions are a necessary political tool to (sometimes – but an attempt was made in this case) avoid war. Would you rather see sanctions or war? I would prefer neither, but the world simply doesn’t work that way…

  38. The Pragmatic Progressive said,

    July 7, 2004 at 22:13

    The Fucking Fucks

    Sadly, No has a compilation of German and Norwegian TV reports in which American soldiers torture children in Iraq. If…

  39. e said,

    July 7, 2004 at 22:17

    >I agree. Everyone in the chain of command–top to bottom–responsible for Saddam’s torture of Iraqi children should be executed.

    No – they should be tried in a court so the facts may see the light of day. And then punished accordingly.

    >And everyone in the chain of command–top to bottom–responsible for Bush’s torture of Iraqi children should be executed.

    Same thing should happen here…

    >See how easy it is to have moral clarity?

    I fear that the ‘moral’ was lacking in the ‘clarity’ of the above sentiments.

    Look, I’m not in the ‘Bush is the good guy’ camp. Just looking for truth and perspective. Saddam’s crimes do not justify the Abu Ghraib crimes, or vice-versa. I think it’s important, however, to remember what was happening there before.

    Sullivan:
    >People that think that this is just “a few bad apples” are like alcoholics

    Do you honestly think that all (or even many) of the US’s troops are bloodthirsty madmen/women over there wreaking havoc / torturing people left and right? I honestly hope not. Good people really do exist in the world, and some of them even live in the US.

  40. lordwhorfin said,

    July 7, 2004 at 22:27

    Nice move of goalposts, there, ‘e’. I suggest you look up what certain Generals are saying about Rummy regarding the chain of command, before you go clinging to that ‘a few bad apples’ line.

  41. Anonymous said,

    July 7, 2004 at 22:37

    e:
    “I think it’s important, however, to remember what was happening there before.”

    Fine, I remember. What is your point? Bringing that up sounds like you’re making the “we torture less than Saddam” argument, or aren’t you?

    The “bad apples” theory says that some of the US troops ARE “bloodthirsty madmen/women over there wreaking havoc / torturing people left and right”. The lefty blogs have been arguing against the “bad apples” theory because it lets the higher-ups off the hook. The WH and Justice Dept. lawyers, Rumsfeld, Bush and the military commanders set the conditions for these atrocities to happen deliberately and by negligence. They are responsible (more, I would say) as are the grunts caught in those situations. Do you agree to allow the US to be subject to an international war crimes tribunal? We can try Saddam and Rumsfeld.

  42. elementropy said,

    July 7, 2004 at 22:39

    Abu Ghraib: Women, Elderly, Insane, Foriegners, CH

    ?There are all sorts of bizarre things in Abu Ghraib ? prisoners more than 90 years old, insane people and children,? he said.

  43. e said,

    July 7, 2004 at 22:44

    lordwhorfin:
    Not sure how I moved the goalposts…. If you feel that way, it was unintended. What are they saying about Rumsfeld? I’d be happy to read whatever you would like to post.

    You seem adamant about the ‘few bad apples’ thing. I’ll ask again:

    Do you honestly think that all (or even many) of the US’s troops are bloodthirsty madmen/women over there wreaking havoc / torturing people left and right?

    Honestly, who’s working on all of this while the troops are wrapped up in all of that torturing?

  44. shystee said,

    July 7, 2004 at 22:45

    oopps that was me, didn’t mean to get all “incognito”.

  45. OtherDoug said,

    July 7, 2004 at 22:57

    e:

    It’s easy to make allegations about the corruption of the UN oil for food program. There was undoubtedly corruption in the program, seeing how much of the oil proceeds were diverted to Saddam & co. But, until someone other than Ahmed Chalabi presents evidence about the corruption I think the right would be best served by discretion. Don’t forget that Chalabi ran his own forgery operation in Iraqi Kurdistan through the 1990s. Does the right want to get burned again by Chalabi?

  46. the american street said,

    July 7, 2004 at 22:57

    Vote for Bush-Cheney 2004

    Lots of good reasons to keep Bush in the White House.

  47. famous and nonfamous strangers said,

    July 7, 2004 at 23:02

    US forces abusing child prisoners

    Just when you thought the prison abuse scandals couldn’t get any worse, a German TV crew interviews an American soldier…

  48. lordwhorfin said,

    July 7, 2004 at 23:07

    e: Pointing out that there are troops involved in the rebuilding of infrastructure in Iraq is an attempt to CHANGE THE SUBJECT from the actions of US troops in places like Um Qasr and Abu Ghraib. This moves the goalposts so that you don’t have to address the Miller-Cambone-Rumsfeld chain-of-command culture of torture that demonstrably exists in Guantanamo, Afghanistan, and Iraq, as part of a strategic decision on intelligence gathering in the war on Terror.

    The fact that some soldiers are involved in humanitarian work does not negate the issue above. And you’d better be willing to defend the strategy (al la Dershowitz, e.g.) or stop trying to use the ‘bad apples’ defense, unless you’d like to include Sanchez, Miller, Cambone, and Rummy himself in that barrel o’ bad apples.

  49. e said,

    July 7, 2004 at 23:16

    >Fine, I remember. What is your point? Bringing that up sounds like you’re making the “we torture less than Saddam” argument, or aren’t you?

    My point is that I hear a lot of people saying “SEE! The US should’ve stayed out. This war is wrong!! They’re all a bunch of murderous, imperialistic thugs!!!”. People immediately pair Abu Ghraib with illegal war and use it to justify their stance (that the US should leave, now).

    People seem to be more outraged at the US than they are at Saddam. Does this make sense? As I’ve said multiple times here, the people at Abu Ghraib were very wrong and should be punished. Do the crimes commited by those people negate the good that’s happening in Iraq?

    >Do you agree to allow the US to be subject to an international war crimes tribunal? We can try Saddam and Rumsfeld.

    No. I don’t think Rumsfeld ‘ordered’ what happened there. The documentation regarding what was allowed and what was strictly prohibited was released. I can’t find a link to it off hand – but I recall looking at it a few weeks ago and all of it seemed relatively low-key to me (ie: standing for up to four hours). What *actually* happened was much different (and is obviously not ok with me) – but, to my knowledge, wasn’t ordered from the top.

    If the exact allegations are true, then yes, Rumsfeld should be tried. Do you have evidence
    supporting the theory that it came from the top?

    (that’s an honest question – I’m not trolling around here, just having a civil conversation – thanks for having me here, I’ll go away if you would like)

  50. Odin said,

    July 8, 2004 at 0:00

    If we are actually abusing Iraqi children in order to make their parents talk, then we have truly sunken to a new low and there is no hope left for this once proud nation. What a shame. What a waste. What a tragedy.

  51. 100 wild-eyed unfair and unbalanced monkeys typing said,

    July 8, 2004 at 0:02

    Ketching Up

    Things Cracking Me Up * You don’t know Tiger Hand???? Saddam demonstrates undefeatable moves. (thanks Brooke) * Ketchup. It’s not just a vegetable anymore. Now it represents the most prominent vegetable. * Yeah, pretty much. Take it yourself. VPOTUS an…

  52. e said,

    July 8, 2004 at 0:08

    Ok – I have to run… Thanks everyone for the conversation. In the end, I hope that what’s ‘right’ prevails. But that’s another can of worms… :)

    Take care-
    e

  53. m said,

    July 8, 2004 at 0:16

    lord whorfin, thank you for finally making the point that e is moving the goal posts. i wonder about people who argue in that fashion – by bringing up something else that has no bearing on the issue. unless e is saying that whatever SADDAM did to children has some bearing on what WE are doing to the children. if so, then make that argument. if not, then saddam’s actions don’t belong in the discussion. that’s another thread.

    e, you may not be a troll, but you are definitely passive agressive. you may be able to manipulate any number of people this way, but a word to the wise: it looks like whorfin won’t be fooled.

    if that’s not what you intend, and you really do want to know what’s happening, then stop throwing out the extraneous issues of saddam’s bad works and good works of u.s. forces, and discuss the one at hand: u.s. treatment of iraqi prisoners, and specifically, children.

  54. Shystee said,

    July 8, 2004 at 0:24

    Allegations?

    Well, there’s this or also any recent Seymour Hersh article like this one.

    The invasion of Iraq was wrong. Torture is wrong. They’re not necessarily connected. Maybe if the war had been planned better, if we had enough troops on the ground, if the US government hadn’t studied legal justifications for torture, if the governent’s position hadn’t been that some torture is OK sometimes, if all prison soldiers had been properly supervised… the torture stuff wouldn’t have happened. It *definitely* wouldn’t have happened if we hadn’t invaded.

    “People seem to be more outraged at the US than they are at Saddam. Does this make sense?”
    Don’t you think the USA should hold itself to a somewhat higher standard than the regime of a murderous dictator?

    “..seemed relatively low-key to me (ie: standing for up to four hours)”
    Any form of torture (including “stress positions”) is not allowed by the Geneva Convention. Once the Pentagon says officially that some torture is OK, it sends a message down the chain of command and bad things happen.

  55. Anonymous2 said,

    July 8, 2004 at 1:10

    Here are the images taken out of the video:

    http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v318/cursuspublicus/1.jpg

    http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v318/cursuspublicus/2.jpg

    http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v318/cursuspublicus/3.jpg

    http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v318/cursuspublicus/4.jpg

    http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v318/cursuspublicus/5.jpg

  56. bannedmann said,

    July 8, 2004 at 3:36

    e said, “People seem to be more outraged at the US than they are at Saddam. Does this make sense? As I’ve said multiple times here, the people at Abu Ghraib were very wrong and should be punished. Do the crimes commited by those people negate the good that’s happening in Iraq?”

    An international commission just released a report in the last couple of weeks that says conditions on the ground in Iraq are far worse now then they were under Saddam. Less electricity, less health care, less education, more crime, the tresury and national museums looted, etc. So the social infrastructure is far worse. There’s tens of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians. The US is torturing Iraqi men, women, and children just like Saddam did. Yes, there are some good people trying to do the right thing over in Iraq, but as a whole, the Invasion of Iraq has been a huge net loss for the Iraqi people in every category of measurement. The US is responsible for every bit of that decline.

  57. bannedmann said,

    July 8, 2004 at 3:45

    I want to point out that the one thing the US did right, getting Saddam out of power, could have been accomplished without the invasion. In the days before the invasion, Saddam and his sons made an offer to leave Iraq. We could have gotten Saddam and his sons out of power and indicted them in the International Criminal Court right after doing so. So Saddam could be out of power and in jail awaiting trial right now without this disasterous invasion.

    Bush turned that down.

    We know why Bush turned that down. Bush wouldn’t be in control of Iraqi oil assets if he had accepted that deal.

  58. Andrew A. Gill said,

    July 8, 2004 at 4:35

    Come, on! You guys keep changing the topic! Remember, we’re discussing Why your mother hates America.

    Oh, and by the way, the Iraq Abuse memos were classified by Secretary Rumsfeld. So unless there’s another Rummy in the typing pool with clearance, it suggests that the document at least crossed Rumsfeld’s desk.

  59. Live from the Nuke Free Zone said,

    July 8, 2004 at 5:20

    Odds and Ends

    Political MLP of the day

  60. EH said,

    July 8, 2004 at 6:44

    The US press did cover the Provance accusations a couple of months ago without much traction, eclipsed, perhaps, by the torture evidenced with photos.

    Actually, this was in the second batch of photos released by the Washington Post. Naked boy covered in mud, arms spread, approaching a guard. Described as the boy from Provance’s story.

  61. n69n said,

    July 8, 2004 at 6:47

    so how long til rush starts saying its the best daycare these kids have ever had?

  62. Phlegma weblog said,

    July 8, 2004 at 9:59

    The Home of the Brave II

    In an earlier post I told about the imprisonment and torture of children in Iraq. Now Sadly, No! have written a more extensive post on the subject. Read it and spread it. Don’t let this be covered up. Thanks to

  63. Publius said,

    July 8, 2004 at 10:46

    We haven’t even scratched the surface yet.

    What about the kids? What about the WOMEN?

    Look at the crazy, sick shit they were doing to the guys. Now, what do you suppose they were doing to the women then?

    Keep in mind that both male and female MP’s and MI’s at Abu Ghraib could rape with total impunity. Who was going to blow the whistle? Not the prisoners! If women in Iraqi culture admit to being raped, they will be killed… BY THEIR OWN FAMILIES. Apparently it brings some kind of “disgrace” on them… enough to warrant a death sentence.

    That’s right. female prisoners were in the world’s worst lose-lose situation: stuck between American rapists and torturers, and their own murderous families. Sheesh.

    There are no “good guys” in this war: its just bad guys versus bad guys. We happen to be only one of the groups of bad guys. And don’t argue that “our” bad guys aren’t as, well, BAD as “their” bad guys. That’s the most hideous sort of moral relativism. And it is NOT what America– or democracy– is about.

    It’s highly likely that women and children were taken advantage of… in sick, twisted, sexually humiliating ways.

    And paid for with your tax dollars.

    Vote. Get the word out. Bring the troops home, before their consciences get stained any further.

  64. August J. Pollak - xoverboard.com said,

    July 8, 2004 at 14:16

    Horrific

    Sadly, No! links to a European report that possibly over 100 children have been detained, and in some cases tortured, in Iraqi prisons. By Americans….

  65. The Gutless Pacifist said,

    July 8, 2004 at 14:19

    If This Story Ever Hits The U.S. Media…

    Sadly, No!: Children in Iraqi prisons Found this via Mac….

  66. telescreen.org said,

    July 8, 2004 at 16:43

    http://vidiot.typepad.com/telescreen/2004/07/condoleezza_ric.html

    Condoleezza Rice, October 8, 2003:Saddam would have remained in power — with all that entails: More mass graves, more children in prison, and more daily depredations of the Iraqi people. George W. Bush, April 16, 2003:Two weeks ago, the Iraqi

  67. newsrack said,

    July 8, 2004 at 17:16

    How to make more Iraqis want to kill Americans

    How proud I am. What a superb job we’re doing. What a compassionate country we clearly are.

    Imagine you’re their father, or brother, or mother or sister. Imagine you learn they’ve been abused.

    What a despicable outrage.

  68. raj said,

    July 8, 2004 at 19:00

    Um, I am an American, and I am disgusted beyond belief at these reports. Not at the reporters. I am disgusted at the people whose actions were reported on. Primarily, I am disgusted at the people who were their Oberbefehlshabern.

    I am appalled.

    Thank you, Sebastian. It is amazing that this has received virtually no play in the American press. Actually, given the fact that the American press is beholden to the American government, it is not that amazing.

  69. Sabarte said,

    July 8, 2004 at 21:41

    Pentagon has Photos of Child Torture -

    The US media did report on this issue back in May, here’s a recap:

    New Yorker reporter Seymour Hersh indicated as much earlier this week, saying that the videotapes depict sexual abuse of minors. Several reports also cited the existence of videotaped rape involving female prisoners.

    “There was a special women’s section. There were young boys in there. There were things done to young boys that were videotaped. It’s much worse,” Hersh said during an appearance on Fox News Tuesday.

    NBC News reported further details Friday evening, quoting unnamed sources who said that the unreleased material showed a prisoner being beaten nearly to death, an Iraqi female being raped by American soldiers and male children being raped by Iraqi guards.

    http://www.intelwire.com/2004_05_07_exclusives.html

    Rumsfeld himself testified before the Senate that “The pictures I’ve seen depict conduct, behavior that is so brutal and so cruel and so inhumane that anyone engaged in it or involved in it would have to be brought to justice.” Apparently he was using “involved” in a limited sense, since I doubt he advocates himself and Bush getting the prison time they deserve.

    I think the reason there’s been no more on this from US media is that they lack the pictures to tittilate puiblic interest with a sizzling story.

    And, as Rumsfeld also testified, “If these are released to the public, obviously it’s going to make matters worse.” God knows the media wouldn’t want to make things worse — for the Bush/Cheney campaign, that is. So they have played obedient puppydogs, as have the “shocked” members of Congress who have viewed the photos, and have gone along with the Pentagon’s desire to withhold the evidence from the far too impressionable and excitable puplic.

    I hope Hell has a special place reserved for them all.

  70. Weaseldog said,

    July 8, 2004 at 22:08

    They need to televise this story on US Television so that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield will become aware of the problem.

    Remember when they all sais that they didn’t find out about the torture until they saw it on TV?

    The White House isn’t informed as to things that happen in Iraq, unless they see it on television. It’s high time that the US Media owed up to their responsibility of informing the White House of things that happen outside Washington DC.

  71. Phlegma weblog said,

    July 9, 2004 at 0:24

    Home of the Brave III

    I´ll just keep posting links to sites that publish posts on the subject of child torture in Iraq. If you got any, give them to me as a comment or as e-mail, and I´ll put it in this post. Sadly,

  72. drscroogemcduck said,

    July 9, 2004 at 6:27

    The torture is inexcusable. But the children could well be legitimate prisoners. I read a Guardian article where a reporter claimed that they were present when children were firing morters and rifles at American soldiers. If children are being used as soldiers then they are going to be taken prisoner.

  73. Manic said,

    July 9, 2004 at 12:30

    drscroogemcduck: Perhaps it was a special daycare centre set up especially for the children of detainees. Kind of like a high-security creche.

    I mean, with their parents bagged and tagged, they couldn’t be allowed to roam the streets alone, could they. They might get blowed up by insurgents or summat.

    And they couldn’t stay with relatives. For obvious reasons:
    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_05/004009.php

  74. horatio said,

    July 10, 2004 at 4:13

    -An international commission just released a report in the last couple of weeks that says conditions on the ground in Iraq are far worse now then they were under Saddam. Less electricity, less health care, less education, more crime, the tresury and national museums looted, etc. So the social infrastructure is far worse. There’s tens of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians. The US is torturing Iraqi men, women, and children just like Saddam did. -

    So the relatively low casuality rate that we are responsible for inflecting is comparable to the mass genocide waged by Hussein? Our tactics, wrong as they are, should never be put on the same level as Hussein’s. We do not chop up bodies and then drop them off on their widow’s doorstep. Your factual distortions do nothing besides disrepute your position.

  75. effen said,

    July 10, 2004 at 13:32

    1. There were polls on media coverage of the abuses. Americans didn’t want to see/hear any more. Couldn’t stomach looking in the mirror I guess. The media got the message.

    2. Haven’t seen F9/11, but got me thinking about those 27 redacted pages on the Saudis from the Congressional 9/11 report. Probably would have snuffed out the Saddam-Qaeda speculation long ago but would have revealed just how unrelated Iraq is to 9/11. Cheney is just running interference — keeping the dream alive, so to speak.

  76. Howard said,

    July 11, 2004 at 20:47

    Prior tto Bush’s war there was Clinton’s sanctions genocide. More than 1 million killed. In both cases the sanctions/bombing of the Clinton period and the invasion and occupation of the Bush period Tony Blair is guilty to the first degree of crimes against humanity along with his master-partners.

    The current whitewashing of the Clinton record not only in Iraq but around the world is a disgrace. Even Michael Moore has surrendered his movie and his conscience to a “don’t mention the fact that Bill killed even more people” agenda or that John Kerry massacred Vietnamese villagers during the US invasion and military genocide upon Indochina.
    People need to drop all illusions about the Democrats and New Labour and realise that supporting them returns nought but history repeating itself and in fact plays into hard line Republican and (British) Conservative agenda. For axample AIR AMERICA with its Clinton loving so called “left” so called “liberal” celebrity dj mugs. The kind of people who suggest that if FARENHEIT 9/11 had been about Clinton it would be on every channel. Quite the opposite is true. It would never have been made or certainly NOT financed by MIRAMAX an arch Clintonite company.
    Bush and his cohorts are appalling criminals but as John Pilger says “in terms of death and devastation” in a comparison between Bush and Clinton “Clinton wins hands down”. From Colombia to East Timor from Palestine to Honduras, from Haiti to Kurdistan from Sudan to Cuba the death toll of Arkansas Bill’s 8 years is vastly greater even if you double Bush’s time at his present kill rate to 8 years, Clinton still comes out by far the worse mass murderer.

    Howard S Marks
    Manchester UK

  77. Dongi said,

    July 12, 2004 at 0:20

    The neo-cons do not need therapy but an exorcism. Their inherent evil and absolute selfishness is causing a civilization (America) to crumble. But, like most narcissistic personalities, they see no reason to get help. It is not they who need assistance because they could not possibly be wrong. The fault lies, as it always does, with others. So the right-wingers lead us blindly into unimagined peril.

    As the Greeks would have it, whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad. Imprisoning and abusing children in Iraqi prisons proves we are well along that dreadful path of insanity. Time now for America to prepare for its own demise. I wonder whether it will be by fire (nuclear holocaust) or water (from ice melted by global warming.) Either way, I think this culture is doomed.

  78. Alexei said,

    July 12, 2004 at 5:44

    I am not an american, but I think these news are made up for political reasons to attack America and its president. Just my opinion. Just part of the war insurgents and their suporters all over the world (read AQ) are leading, using every method they have. And than it is being recycled for in house political use by rabbid anti-Bushists. You guys are so gullible.

  79. miss ani said,

    July 12, 2004 at 18:41

    It’s amazing how much the current administration has done to further the cause of the very terrorists it claims to be fighting against. By going over to a country that posed us no threat, invading it, killing innocent people who we calmly refer to as ‘collateral damage’ and torturing the innocent along with the guilty, we are no better than the previous dictator. Make no mistake, a wrong is a wrong. There is no need to quantify what was done by who and when. The torture of a child is wrong no matter who does it, if anything, I find it more repulsive when condoned and possibly ordered by an administration so hell-bent on their sanctimonious, holier-than-thou, regurgitated pseudo-Christian rhetoric.

    The point isn’t who was worse, Clinton or Bush – all leaders have their strengths and their weaknesses, their goods and bads. I’m so sick of people turning every issue into a “Clinton was worse, he banged an intern” discussion. Who cares who Clinton was diddling? If you really want to compare apples to apples, Bush paid to have a girlfriend he knocked up in 1971 to have an ILLEGAL abortion. But you won’t be hearing about that any time soon, especially since said former girlfriend has magically moved into a half million dollar mansion in Corpus Christi. (How she afforded it when she was making under $13,000 a year is a bit odd, but that’s another thread entirely.)

    The bottom line of all of this is simple – this is not because of a “few bad apples”, it was a policy decision as exemplified by the memo that explained exactly how to side-step the Geneva Convention (But hey, who needs the Geneva Convention? Fuck them AND the UN), the method of torture to obtain intelligence is not only a gross breach of universal human rights but, if one were to follow common logic, it is also inaccurate. Beyond that, how can intelligence obtained through torture be admissible in a court of law? What about American soldiers who are captured by enemies of ours? What kind of treatment can they look forward to when we anally-raped possibly innocent men with broomsticks?

    Just one more thought before I end my incessant ramblings – what about the women that are being kept there? If this is what they’re doing to the men and children, can you imagine the sexual abuse the woman may be forced to endure? Considering that if a woman is raped and tells her family, by tradition, the family is to kill her, what kind of life can she look forward to?

    I love my country more than any other on this earth, and because of that, I demand the right to criticize its choices.

  80. Michelle said,

    July 13, 2004 at 21:28

    This is stomach-turning. The best thing we can do right now is continue to get this news out there.

  81. marcone's blog said,

    July 15, 2004 at 19:01

    Abu Ghraib, there was indeed more to come…

  82. Cog said,

    July 15, 2004 at 22:12

    You are aware that children as young as 12 have been arrested for firing RPGs at soldiers right?

    And I think you need to be very specific and honest when accusing American soldiers of abusing Iraqi boys in prison.

    There were rumors during the earlier abuse scandal that Iraqi contractors hired to work at the prison had abused Iraqi boys, but I have never heard a single instance of Americans being accused of that.

    And just once I would like a report to describe the complete picture. Not just of the abuse, if it happened, but also the mortar attack in April that killed 22 Iraqis at Abu Gharib. The 6 mortar attacks on the prison since then, the assasination attempts of Iraqis working at the prison, the IED and sniper attacks outside the gates. I would like the severe personel shortage to be described, soldiers going home after their tour was up and not being replaced, 24hr shifts, a lack of equipment, lack of supplies. Iraqi contractors passing weapons to prisoners inside the prison and information to those outside.

    None of this excuses what the Americans did. But I think the actions of a few of the degenerates does not represent the actions of everyone who served at the prison. And the prison was a hell hole during the abuse, and certainly moreso under Saddams time.

    The report I read that details all of this information when discussing the abuse scandal will be the first.

    Please dont talk to me about censoring news.

  83. Cog said,

    July 15, 2004 at 22:14

    I should clarify that the [if it happened] comment above was directed at American abuse of Iraqi boys.

  84. miss ani said,

    July 16, 2004 at 18:45

    So, just to get your reasoning correct, bad behavior justifies bad behavior?

    If you really follow your logic through, wouldn’t you also have to concede that the actions of children shooting at soldiers qualifies as the actions of a few degenerates? Or is that spin only used when establishing your own point?

    The point several people are making is that this is not the result of a few degenerates – it’s policy. That’s what is more deplorable about the entire mess; beaurocrats with dollar signs in their eyes on the other end of the world dictating the horrid treatment of a faceless mass known as collateral damage.

    Making the “We’re not as bad as Sadaam” argument just further dehumanizes the actual situation. And all it does is turn it into the typical he-started-it routine of 4 year olds.

    Call me crazy, but last I checked, the ridiculous war our infallible moron of a president dragged us into was still going on. When you’re in war there are bound to be 24 hour shifts, a lack of supplies, extended tours of duty, etc – it’s a fact of life. It’s not exactly a surprise. What is a surprise is that our soldiers are being forced to endure these wartime hardships so long after such an ostentatious “MISSION: Accomplished” photo op ocurred so long ago.

    To blame what has “allegedly” happened, and I say allegedly since this is all just “rumor” and those damn Iraqi’s got what was coming to them or something, on a few “degenerates” is missing the complete picture. An exhausted, overworked, overly stressed soldier is bound to break the rules of military decorum – but to anally violate prisoners with a flourescent light fixture is a bit over the top.

    Then again, according to this administration, what so-called torture was going on over there was akin to frat boy antics and college age hazing.

    I’d hate to have gone to their school.

  85. Cog said,

    July 17, 2004 at 2:00

    “So, just to get your reasoning correct, bad behavior justifies bad behavior?”

    Uh, that is a juvenile attempt to distort what I said. And please do not embarass yourself futhur mentioning logic.

    “The point several people are making is that this is not the result of a few degenerates – it’s policy.”

    This is your opinion, and it is not one that has been proven. If you are familiar with logic then you would understand this. There is one first hand report from the soldier in the video, but no video of the abuse that was mentioned on another site. There are also complaints from aid and human rights agencies that need to be investigated, but as of yet, have not been proven. There are also first hand accounts from Iraqis who have both suffered torture and who have faked suffering torture by Americans at Abu Gharib. But you alread know all this.

    “Call me crazy, but last I checked, the ridiculous war our infallible moron of a president dragged us into was still going on.”

    Oh sh**. I am sorry. I actually thought you were being honest and discussing the facts. FYI, I am not voting for Bush, I am just holding these accusations to the same standard of honesty that I hold the Bush administration to.

  86. Anonymous said,

    July 17, 2004 at 3:13

    Ah, it’s all the same.

    Person 1: This is horrible! Someone should be punished! It’s all Bush’s fault!

    Person 2: Well, maybe, if this stuff isn’t all made up, which it probably is. Look, here’s a pointless diversion into partisan rhetoric! Hey, Saddam was a bad guy you know! Y’know, some soldiers are actually nice!

    The fact is that a huge segment of the American populace is in total denial. They won’t watch F9/11 because they might have to change their minds. They won’t admit the economy is completely hosed because they would have to admit that Reaganomics *still* doesn’t work. They won’t read “lies and the lying liars”. Instead, they will turn on Rush Limbaugh and smile fatuously as he talks about “feminazis” and “environmental whackos”.

    What they are denying is that the USA is in the grip of the most evil regime the world has seen since WW2 Japan fell. The people in power are enablers of torture, rape, and murder. It’s what they like, it’s what they want, it probably gives them sexual pleasure to comtemplate. FACE IT. STOP TRYING TO DENY IT. Draft-dodger George W. Bush literally got *tears in his eyes* when the troops passed in review before him, on their way to start the Iraqi bloodbath. FACE IT. The man is depraved, and his administration is depraved.

    Do they have to rape your son in front of your eyes before you will believe it?

    Weep for the fallen. The fallen honor of the USA.

  87. Nihilistic oNe said,

    July 19, 2004 at 11:50

    It may be worth noting that the CIA and MI have a history of abusing children, some much younger then those reported here. Back in the CIA early days we had MKULTRA and everything that came of that, we have the Franklin cover up and Finders case, these are just some of the sickening things we do to children in our own country.

    It really doesn’t matter who is in the White House what really needs to be changed is the insane power given to the executive branch by the NSA of 1947. Until congress has some oversight of the CIA they will continue to do what they want and get away with it.

    Lets face it, they can do anything and classify it under the name National Security, hell even the CIA’s budget is classified, as is the amount they make smuggling drugs, imfluencing banking and selling arms.

    As sad as everything is nothing will ever change unless the CIA does.

  88. miss ani said,

    July 19, 2004 at 18:31

    It?s my opinion that other people have opinions? How exactly does one go about proving that someone else has an opinion? Unlike some people, I don?t base my opinions on a single website that may have some video. The same way you?re entitled to your opinion, I?m entitled to mine. I don?t care whether we agree or not ? last I checked this wasn?t a ?I can convince you I?m right? thread. And just as there are Iraqi?s who have lied, there are Americans who have lied ? does that mean they cancel each other out and all is left in the world?

    It seems to me that you?re the one suffering from infantile misdirection.

    I could not care less who you?re voting for or what your standards are, the fact of the matter is that men, women and children were abused. If you feel the need to turn it into a “we might be bad but they’re definitely worse” argument, that’s fine. Just don’t waste it on me.

    And please, if you?re going to attempt to attack someone?s intelligence and maturity, at least use your spell check now and then.

  89. Veteran said,

    July 22, 2004 at 5:58

    This is disgusting and insulting. Do you people honestly believe this crap? I didn’t see ONE piece of substantial evidence. Not a picture, not a film clip, nothing. You people are so willing to believe this crap based on the words of one computer nerd who decided that he wants media attention? My god, people, it’s an embarassment to live in the same country, and to fight for the same country, that you live in. You hippies need to go live in Germany with your people.

  90. also a Veteran said,

    July 23, 2004 at 18:00

    First of all people, why is everyone so appalled by these stories of torture and abuse abroad?

    Torture, abuse, and murder is as American as apple pie and baseball. This great country could not have become great without it. From the first settlers at Jamestown (most of whom where “indentured servants”) – by the way out of the approximately 4200 original settlers, more than 3000 died. Contrary to popular belief (what is taught in schools) only 350 were killed by native americans. These 3000 or so people’s death were unaccounted for. Most appeared to have died from abuse (the overwhelming majority were indentured servants), starvation (food was plenty, just not for what equates to slaves), disease (from the poor conditions they were forced to live in)or simply overworked on the tobacco plantations – to slavery to our prison “corporations”.

    Rumsfool said that the abuse is “UnAmerican”, however, the same type of abuse/torture, rape, humiliation, exploitation, and murder is going on right here in this country as I write this, look in just about any of the many prisons in this country, male, female, and juvenile. So lets not be surprised by whats going on abroad because it happens all the time in this country. Come to my neighborhood and just sit and watch how the police interact with “American Citizens” and you will see things you wouldn’t beleive. So please, save the Drama and the fake concern because when it is happening here in this country you guys are no where to be found. No message boards, no media, no public outcry, nothing. How can you really expect the government to take you seriously when you let them get away with murder (figuratively and literally) here in the states but “act” as if you all are concerned when they “take their act on the road”? They no that americans really don’t want to know whats being done or how its being done as long as the illusion of them being safe is upheld.

    By the way, I am not just some hippie, I served in the military for 9 1/2 years (1988 to 1997) including the first Gulf War so I am not just talking out the side of my neck.

  91. RingLeader said,

    July 28, 2004 at 2:36

    Veteran,

    This was reported by a soldier who was stationed at Abu Ghraib. The pictures were included in the bunch found initially, but have been censored by the US gov/media, and he was instructed not to discuss what he knows. Sounds like the military I served in from 1988-94, what about you? Yeah, I was in SA in 1991, too, and again in 1993. I’ve seen what people are capable of, and I agree with you that we should be just as outraged about what is being done in America as we are doing to the world.

    To those who bash Clinton for the deaths in other countries during sanctions, well, how is Clinton more responsible than the leaders in those countries? And anyway, doesn’t congress decide the sanctions, set the laws (normally, in a non-Patriot Act America) while the executive enforces them?

    What happened to separation of power? Congress makes law, President enforces law, Court judges on law. Today, we expect the president to make law, Congress to handle the paperwork to make it legal, and the Supreme Court to silence the dissenters with judgment. Pretty perverted, if you ask me. Its as if we assume the president is going to abuse the power of the office, so we must choose one who most represents the way we’d like him to misuse his power. Remember, we are not a true democracy, we are a representative democracy. Perhaps we should push for a true democracy? One person, one vote, no exceptions? It should be hard to get a majority of the population to vote in favor of torturing children, or pass oppressive laws on themselves, or redirect their money to warmaking efforts that have little to do with ‘defense’.

    I welcome comments.

  92. miss ani said,

    July 28, 2004 at 17:03

    Finally, a voice of reason amidst the flock.

  93. my name said,

    August 6, 2004 at 19:52

    line 1

  94. name said,

    August 6, 2004 at 20:17

    name

  95. the american street said,

    August 8, 2004 at 21:22

    Khan Artists, Pt 2

    Violating national security is only in the interests of one.

  96. my name said,

    August 13, 2004 at 1:11

    line 1

  97. my name said,

    August 13, 2004 at 1:12

    line 1

  98. my name said,

    August 13, 2004 at 2:17

    line 1

  99. LiberalGoddess said,

    September 24, 2004 at 23:47

    If you go to http://www.michaelmoore.com he has backups for every line in his movie. Obviously you can’t handle the truth and that is why you want to believe that Moore’s movie is fiction. Go to his website. He has sources for everything he has ever said. I saw 9/11 several times and each time it got better and more powerful. I wish you and all the other rights the best since you are the downfall of this country.

  100. Anonymous said,

    October 29, 2004 at 18:28

    poop

  101. Ashley said,

    November 16, 2004 at 21:19

    i thank the iraqe kids should be sent over here in amercia and be adtoped by the american be brought up ina good family i dont thank they should have to suffer over there in iraq do you?
    i mean they are little how would you like to be over there being emaressed when a solider comes to you ask for help but they just walk on by and says dumbe iraqs they should say that about us americans cuz we are dumb not getting to help the childern not letting them come over here they are just like us next time someone makes fun of you just thank about the hurtful little inttonc iraq childern getting shot,made fun of,or getting bettings for nothignd, the nation has forgot and i am going to remind yall this what would jesus do would he let the little children over threr suffer no he would he would take them and treat them with respect and care about them now my firend would you do the same thang or not?

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