7
That Just Proves My Point
Cap’n Ed seems to think we’re all making a bigger deal out of the White House’s torture memos than is really called for. After all, we did worse things to Nazis during WWII, didn’t we?
Ed, quoting from the Washington Post, says:
The veterans of P.O. Box 1142, a top-secret installation in Fairfax County that went only by its postal code name, were brought back to Fort Hunt by park rangers who are piecing together a portrait of what happened there during the war.
Nearly 4,000 prisoners of war, most of them German scientists and submariners, were brought in for questioning for days, even weeks, before their presence was reported to the Red Cross, a process that did not comply with the Geneva Conventions. Many of the interrogators were refugees from the Third Reich.
“We did it with a certain amount of respect and justice,” said John Gunther Dean, 81, who became a career Foreign Service officer and ambassador to Denmark.
The interrogators had standards that remain a source of pride and honor.
“During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone,” said George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. “We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I’m proud to say I never compromised my humanity.”
Oh, well, then. Not so much.
But, you see, it’s not the same, because the enemy we fight today is way, way, way worse than Nazis. Like, seriously way worse. Just ask Ed.
It must be said, however, that they faced a different enemy in a different war. The Germans fought to expand territory through traditional warfare, at least as arrayed against the US and the West. While they conducted sabotage missions in the US through espionage, they did not use terrorist infiltrators to attempt to kill thousands of American civilians.
Um, Ed? You know the legal decision that the Administration keeps citing in its attempts to find a precedent allowing them to do anything they damn well please — including torture and execution — of “unlawful enemy combatants”? You know, Ex parte Quirin? It’s based on things that actually happened, what with the Court being notoriously fussy about reviewing cases based on made-up stuff. Specifically, what it’s based on is the capture of eight German (and German-American) Nazi agents participating in something called Operation Pastorius. Contrary to its sweet-sounding name, Operation Pastorius was not about bringing us edelweiss and German milkmaids:
Operation Pastorius was a failed plan for a series of attacks by Nazi German agents inside the United States. The operation was staged in June 1942 and was to be directed against strategic U.S. economic targets. The operation was named by Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, chief of the German Abwehr, for Francis Daniel Pastorius, the leader of the first organized settlement of Germans in America….
Their mission was to stage sabotage attacks on American economic targets: hydro-electric plants at Niagara Falls; the Aluminum Company of America’s plants in Illinois, Tennessee and New York; locks on the Ohio River near Louisville, Kentucky; the Horseshoe Curve a crucial railroad pass near Altoona, Pennsylvania as well as the Pennsylvania Railroad’s repair shops at Altoona; a cryolite plant in Philadelphia; Hell Gate Bridge in New York; and Pennsylvania Station in Newark, New Jersey.
(emphasis mine)
I don’t know if Ed’s ever been to Penn Station, but I have. I can pretty much guarantee you that blowing up Penn Station would result in some impressive civilian carnage on any given day and at any given time. I honestly don’t know if it would kill as many people as were killed in the attacks on the World Trade Center, and I hope to God I never find out.
While there is a fair argument to be made that the Pastorius conspirators weren’t terrorists because they were representatives of a military government we were currently at war with, all that answer does is beg the question of what it means for the United States to be (as our government keeps insisting we are) “at war with terrorism.” Regardless, the idea that Nazis had not tried to kill American civilians by the boatload is just false.
They also did not face religious extremists who believed that death brought them to Allah and 72 waiting virgins for taking out women and children. One can make a case that the civilized techniques of PO Box 1142 worked because their detainees also believed themselves civilized and members of the Western culture.
Right. Because Nazis weren’t extremists or anything. Nazis were calm, reasonable individuals with no strange beliefs about the afterlife.
But don’t get Ed wrong. He’s not saying it’s okay to torture people, even Muslamonazis. It’s just so hard to know what torture is sometimes…
That’s not an argument for torture as traditionally understood. Is waterboarding torture? We use it to train our Navy SEALs and other commando units.
You know, I’ve heard that, too. I’ve also heard that the reason why we expose our SEALs to waterboarding is to PREPARE THEM TO RESIST TORTURE in case they are captured by enemies who practice TORTURE.
I will leave it to those less disgusted than I am to complete that syllogism.
You know, we’ve hit a new low in our political discourse when it’s possible to read other people making apologies and excuses for torture and not find yourself feeling much in the way of outrage over it. A little bit of disgust, sure, but no real outrage. It’s like when you flood the engine on your car and the sparkplugs won’t spark — there is just so much on a daily basis to be outraged over that it’s hard to muster more than a weak sputter anymore. I’m not even sure what it would take to put enough oxygen back into this mix to bring the outrage back, and that just depresses me even more. How about you? What would it take for you to feel genuine outrage again?
Peanutcat said,
October 7, 2007 at 17:01
Hell, it sometimes seems that I’m in a constant stage of outrage; it gets tiring, though . . . . .
Hysterical Woman said,
October 7, 2007 at 17:04
Nice research. Shame Special Ed couldn’t be bothered.
objectivelypro said,
October 7, 2007 at 17:07
What would it take for you to feel genuine outrage again?
The trouble with genuine outrage from the left is that it precipitates a tenfold quantity of faux outrage from the right.
It’s a little wearying.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 17:10
Both of these statements are perfectly reasonable in relation to the article cited.
The US interrogations mentioned related to interviewing scientists, mathematicians and cipher operators who had knowledge of not only German cipher operations, but had also broken Russian ciphers, a primary concern of the US following the war. Most of these were debriefings rather than interrogations and many involved mutual arrangements for intelligence and expertise sharing in intelligence and scientific fields.
None of these men plotted the death of civilians or even enemy troops for that matter, just like non-combat sigint personnel don’t today. So yeah, you could say with a great deal of certainty that any and all jihadists interrogated today are worse, right down to the last man, than any of the German prisoners referred to in this story.
Wally Whateley said,
October 7, 2007 at 17:19
If only we’d stop pretending innocent shepherds and teenagers were jihadists…
Thom said,
October 7, 2007 at 17:19
Does anyone else get the feeling of a big “Oh, never mind about that” regarding the fact that the Nazis killed some couple hundred thousand American troops? I mean, most of them were civilians, after all, until they were drafted… to fight the Nazis.
And I only checked Wikipedia, but there, and they must be correct or close, it says we lost 11,000 or so civilians in WWII.
Terrier said,
October 7, 2007 at 17:22
Well I can manage a little outrage when I reflect on the people who died as the result of the V1 and V2 attacks on England or the U-boat campaign to stop Allied shipping. But I’m guess I shouldn’t be because they only died as the result of “sharing in intelligence and scientific fields.” I’m am quite certain however that the children that grew up without parents and the parents that lost their children to such attacks were outraged.
Lesly said,
October 7, 2007 at 17:26
Right. Because Nazis weren’t extremists or anything. Nazis were calm, reasonable individuals with no strange beliefs about the afterlife.
A few decades, good economic relations and a willingness to back us up on foreign policy will go a long way to gloss over the past.
Joe in SF said,
October 7, 2007 at 17:32
The comments about this article at Capn Ed’s site are equally disturbing.
I’m struck by a need by some to minimize what the Nazis did or somehow deem it “within the rules” because it’s important to make the GWOT the greatest challenge ever.
These people grow more disturbed each week.
Rene ala Carte said,
October 7, 2007 at 17:32
It seems that most right wing commentators of the kind described in the post fall into the trap of “well they did it so we can too.” Isn’t this just allowing others to determine our morality?
I guess I might not want to find out what “Capt. Ed’s” real moral position is.
The internet, 24 hr. news, and other forms of mass communications has exposed a truly despicable element in American society. I don’t think it is any more widespread than it has ever been, but it certainly is much more out in the open. The John Birch Society, the KKK and organizations like them have existed since at least the Civil War and for the most part they held secret meetings and tried to keep their identities out of the public eye. Now, they set up web sites and broadcast their hate.
Our current leaders certainly knew how to exploit them and use them.
Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran is only the latest manifestation.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 17:41
Like I said in your previous post about the US abusing human rights and committing war crimes, if this concerns you so much, why not just hurry up and forget that it has happened?
All you’re gonna do is get yourself into a chronological tangle with all this “here’s how we were then” and “look at us now” bullshit.
2 days ago you were bitching about a report of the US using hand slaps and cold room treatment under this administration, which certainly seems to be a step up from sending prisoners to be tortured to death under this one and the last.
Here you are talking about more civilised interrogation techniques during a period when the US was incinerating 10s of thousands of civilians every night.
Between these two periods the number of human rights abuses and war crimes couldn’t just fill books, they’ve filled bookshelves. FFS, mass graves have been filled in the name of competition in the fucking fruit market. No apologists were needed for any of this, let alone any laughable discussion as to the merits of the threat being addressed, you just pretended it never happened and seemed to cope rather well as a result.
So why not hurry the fuck up here and do the same already if it’s causing you so much grief ?
It’ll certainly be less pathetic to watch than than having to watch you continue to claim outrage at apologists as though denial is any better. After all, it’s not like the Nazi apologists are any worse than Holocaust deniers now is it.
Jillian said,
October 7, 2007 at 17:45
I wrote a post here before about the U.S. committing war crimes? Really?
objectivelypro said,
October 7, 2007 at 17:45
Now, they set up web sites and broadcast their hate.
Our current leaders certainly knew how to exploit them and use them.
Anything for an invite to the next WH tea party.
Smiling Mortician said,
October 7, 2007 at 17:50
Generally I don’t have to read comments more than once to get the point. Today, however . . . WTF is Kilo on about?
Snorghagen said,
October 7, 2007 at 17:55
I think he’s saying that we shouldn’t complain about US torture policies because a lot of bad stuff happened in WW2.
Or something.
objectivelypro said,
October 7, 2007 at 17:57
WTF is Kilo on about?
He’s certainly mustered some outrage, at least.
Wild contradictions and reading misapprehension notwithstanding.
MrWonderful said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:02
I don’t think it’s that these people get more disturbed. I agree with Rene ala Carte: the disturbed ones emerge and become more visible. The not-as-disturbed ones quietly bail out as the arguments and positions get more extreme. Last year’s Michael Savage fan is this year’s Rush Limbaugh fan–not because the fan has become less brutal or more intelligent, but because Rush’s defense of the indefensible has become more extreme.
Every society has its angry sadists, its bullies, its racist philosophers, its stupid people with a grudge and an eagerness to blame and take it out on others. That’s what was horrific about the Nazis–not that somehow people were turned into racist/sadistic monsters, but that the resident racist/sadistic monsters got control of the government.
This administration, with its policies and failures and lies and ineptitude and corruption, has degenerated to the point where the most ludicrous Blogs for Bush partisans are its mainstream defenders.
Righteous Bubba said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:09
So yeah, you could say with a great deal of certainty that any and all jihadists interrogated today are worse, right down to the last man, than any of the German prisoners referred to in this story.
That’s provided you get jihadists. It seems that a bunch of people scooped up in various operations have been let go because, you know, they weren’t worse, right down to the last man, than the average bystander.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:09
RubDMC said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:16
“What would it take for you to feel genuine outrage again?”
The provocations occur daily. Hourly.
It’s already been said - outrage is a powerful emotion that drains substantial energy. It’s impossible to sustain.
D-list wingnuts like Special Ed underscore Hannah Arendt’s point.
Then there are the more-widely promoted A-C listers, along with the long tail of E through ZZ99 listers. So, there’s no shortage of outrageous shit. That ain’t the problem. A finite amount of psychic energy - now that’s a problem.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:20
Well yeah. And as you say, you know, they got let go.
Are you aware of any other counterinsurgency campaign the US has ever been involved in ?
Because when it comes to historical comparisons of the current campaigns to previous one’s, we could pretend that every prisoner released to date has come out missing 1 limb and you’ll still shit outta luck suggesting this is somehow anything but an improvement.
When I refer to mass graves and carpet bombing civilians what meaning do you associate with these terms?
Jillian said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:24
It’s times like this that I wish I had a bunny with a pancake on its head around.
Righteous Bubba said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:24
Well yeah. And as you say, you know, they got let go.
Yes, every single innocent has been let go and everything’s great.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:25
That’s the spirit.
Snorghagen said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:27
In your case, it’s a lesson in comprehensive incoherence.
objectivelypro said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:29
Jillian,
I think Kilo is on the verge of neither trusting you nor Sadly, No ever again.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:33
No, why would you expect that to even be a possibility ?
I’m not sure what it is you are hoping for here. Apparently, something which you cannot even achieve in your domestic prison system, fully subject to US law and the rights granted to US citizens, outside of a combat zone, unconcerned with international juristictions and with a few hundred years of practice in defined proceedures for the avoidance and rectification of such situations.
Well what can I tell you, pray harder for that I guess.
Wally Whateley said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:35
I’m thinking we may be only a few weeks away from some wingnut columnist floating a trial bubble that “Hitler wasn’t so bad, and he had some pretty good ideas on how to eliminate troublemakers. It’s time for us to start re-examining Hitler’s place in history and start using some of his fully-justified methods…”
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:40
You’re forgetting that we can all see your own contribution here. Why not go for the trifecta and cite some spelling errors there pal ? Really bring that spineless non-participation home.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:43
Maybe even take that re-examination back to see where those justifications and methods sprang from. Who perhaps was promoting such wisdom and practicing it as policy.
Jillian said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:44
Kilo, not to be rude or condescending or anything, but…
none of us have the slightest idea what you are talking about. It’s hard to respond to whatever it is you’re saying when none of us can figure out what you’re saying.
J— said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:44
Today I learned Jaco founded Germantown, PA. Thank you, Sadly, No!
J— said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:48
A brief reminder pulled from the archives: Kilo’s June performance.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:52
I don’t know. Do you write elsewhere apart from on this group blog ?
This group blog, that on a daily basis refers to publications and other blogs to collectively describe their content and contributors ?
If not, figure it the fuck out.
Jillian said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:54
When you ask so nicely, how can I resist offering you a present?
Lesly said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:56
This group blog, that on a daily basis refers to publications and other blogs to collectively describe their content and contributors?
It sounds like Jillian, Brad, etc., etc. are Frankenstein! Or one person has multiple personalities.
Who knew?
Snorghagen said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:58
Impressive!
This time around, he’s still just as belligerent but even more confused.
Jillian said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:58
Although if he’s confusing me with any of the blokes that write here, I have to say that I am flattered beyond all imagining. There are some truly superb writers working on this blog, and I only wish I had one-tenth their talent.
objectivelypro said,
October 7, 2007 at 18:59
how can I resist offering you a present?
I have a new desktop photo!
Hoosier X said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:00
Kilo is saying that it’s better to form arguments by arranging words at random than to take the time to master cogency, clarity or coherence.
And spelling all the words right is more important than making sense.
It’s fascinating.
It’s like, What if William S. Burroughs taught logical fallacies using his cut-up method?
I think Kilo is also suggesting that the evil liberaloislamomexifascists are beaming mesages into his or her brain to force him or her to read Sadly, No and he or she is all out of tinfoil.
If I’ve misunderstood you, Kilo, I apologize.
g said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:00
Ah, now I remember him!
ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:05
This time around, he’s still just as belligerent but even more confused.
Not to mention, as morally depraved as any wingnut could be.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:05
‘
Do you find that relevant ?
I would have thought that the examples from the archives of me attacking people for dishonestly pretending that this is the first time the US ever engaged in renditions or blanket surveillence of it’s citizens would have fit better with me doing the same thing in regard to torture and human rights abuses.
Oh wait, that’s the one where I was attacking people for dishonestly pretending that they didn’t have the exact same prejudices as a right-wing columnist when it came to suspecting who was behind a bombing attempt in London that came after 3 others planned by jihadists.
So I guess it’s right on the money. Good one, I’d forgotten about that.
g said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:07
Kilo is one of these guys who has nothing but outrage to go on. There’s nothing he believes IN particularly, he just believes other people, or groups of people, are bad. So he twists everything they say around in a kind of jiujitsu verbal combat.
It doesn’t matter what the subject or principle being discussed is - he just has to prove that, whatever it is, those he opposes are wrong about it.
That’s why he’s so hard to understand; because there’s no logic there.
What’s your position on fishsticks and applesauce, Kilo?
Legalize said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:07
“It’s like, What if William S. Burroughs taught logical fallacies using his cut-up method?”
If there’s ever been a more apt observation of wingnuttery, I’ve never heard it.
Jillian said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:07
Who’s pretending about what, now?
Am I wasting my time by even asking that question?
A whole field full of straw men said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:08
Stop using us up, Kilo! We’re needed over at big-boy jammies!
Smiling Mortician said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:09
Am I wasting my time by even asking that question?
Um. Yeah.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:10
Grammar… check.
g said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:11
Actually, Kilo, you ARE a poopy-head. Your emotional behavior here is on par with what takes place on the kindergarten playground.
Hoosier X said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:11
Whichever evil liberaloislamomexifascists are beaming mesages into Kilo’s brain to force him or her to read Sadly, No, I beg you, in the name of humanity, please stop it before he or she hurts him- or herself.
Or at least provide tinfoil. Or more bunnies with pancakes on their heads.
(Doesn’t it make you long for Bruce?)
Jillian said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:12
You’re a poopy head.
What? He asked us to.
cokane said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:12
Kilo, you’re either being intentionally cryptic or you’re just a lousy writer. But I can’t make heads or tails of your remarks thus far. Is English your second language?
Smiling Mortician said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:13
Fuck the use of grammar and spelling. Proper blockquote formatting is where it’s at for today’s champion arguer.
Jillian said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:14
Your wish is my command.
Even if the whole “bunny with a pancake on its head” played itself out about four years ago. It’s good to go with a classic sometimes.
Gavin M. said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:16
Where is Bruce, btw?
Hoosier X said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:17
Questionable html skills … check.
Snorghagen said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:18
I have to admit, not making any fucking sense is a formidable tactic. Since no one can refute gibberish, you’ll never lose an argument.
Hoosier X said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:19
Almost funny enough to write for Mallard Fillmore … check.
Hoosier X said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:23
You left out:
Excessive political correctness probably induced by too much exposure to the Liberal Media(TM) or Liberal Academia(TM) … check.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:26
Yeah, you know I was just reading someone saying there’s too much of that about. Hey these open threads are great aren’t they.
tigrismus said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:28
I personally can’t take this torture discussion seriously when the author refuses (REFUSES!) to condemn Lord Amherst.
Hoosier X said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:29
Kilo, I sincerely want to apologize for that remark. It was just mean and uncalled for. It was just wrong. You are much, much funnier than Mallard Filmore. It’s just, you know how it is on political snark sites, passions run high and, if you are out of tinfoil, those beams being sent into your head just make you lose control and you write the first thing that comes into your head without really thinking about whether it makes any sense or banana pickle juice stroller cable tinkle engine.
I know you know how that is.
If you’re not Dr. BLT’s sock puppet, you should get into the same recovery program that he is currently working through.
LittlePig said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:37
My read of Kilo is that he is pointing out the foolishness of comparing current norms to WWII (I also get the implication that “we had to be nice to these Germans because they had really good technical intel” is in there somewhere).
However, Kilo, your points fail because the good folks at Sadly, No in general and Jillian in general are *not* making that comparision. The comparision is being made by:
1) right wing nutjobs like Cap’n Ed, who desperately need to make this a moral combat with clearly delinated combatants to put them in a bigger-n-better fight than ol dubya-dubya-two
2) Whitehouse legal lackies like David Addington trying to fluff out legal entaglements to allow the current Administration to ignore the law of the land.
So your anger/annoyance is misplaced.
J— said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:37
But Lord Jeffrey Amherst didn’t do a thing. It says so in the song!
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:46
As is pretending you cannot understand anything written, or that you cannot respond to anything short of perfect grammar.
Well, let’s not kid ourselves here, it is actually quite transparent, pathetic and spineless isn’t it.
Which I think everyone can appreciate given the distinct lack of even a single enquiry from anyone asking me to clarify anything I’ve written. It’s kind of a give away.
shane's dentist's attorney's bookie said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:48
Let me see if i;ve got it so far:
1) special ed says we held some germans incommunicado in violation of Geneva Conventions in WW2, similarly to what we are doing at Gitmo now.
2) however, we (per special ed) didn’t torture those germans, unlike what we are doing at Gitmo now.
3) kilo says we didn’t torture the germans because they didn’t kill (or pledge to kill) american civilians (subject to dispute by reality based community) unlike the prisoners at Gitmo. (its getting fuzzy all around me)
4) some prisoners at Gitmo were tortured and released. (its getting fuzzier still)
5) because some americans were convicted and turned out to be non-guilty, its okay to have non-guilty, yet tortured, inmates at Gitmo. (???? its getting inpenetrably fuzzacious now.)
Me said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:56
I’m thinking we may be only a few weeks away from some wingnut columnist floating a trial bubble that “Hitler wasn’t so bad
Shit, just a couple of weeks ago I was musing on possible conservative book titles of the future. One of the titles I came up with was “Re-examining Slavery”.
And then, as if on cue, comes that Michael Medved column.
ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:57
Oh Kevin Kilo, that grass isn’t gonna mow itself, you know!
Hoosier X said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:59
Don’t forget:
6) Look at meeeee! I can spell!
7) Liberals are mean to the incoherent.
and
8) Because liberals at a snark site didn’t ask me to be clearer, the Iraq War is the right thing, George W. Bush is the bestest president ever, and Fred Thompson is just the man to lead us into the 15th century.
P.S. If you aren’t supporting Fred Thompson, please be clearer.
g said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:59
As is pretending you cannot understand anything written…..the distinct lack of even a single enquiry from anyone asking me to clarify anything I’ve written. It’s kind of a give away.
Jesus, what kind of nutcase are you? You’ve had at least 6 people say they can’t understand a fucking thing you’ve written.
And now you’re hurt, deeply hurt that no one has explicitly asked for clarification. Do you need a fucking engraved invitation?
Normal human beings, when told their point isn’t clear, typically attempt to clarify it, not fling about insults and then pout because you’re waiting for someone to give you leave to restate your argument.
It’s kind of a give-away, indeed - you’re a passive agressive little shit. That, at least, is clear.
As to your argument, I’m no longer interested.
Snorghagen said,
October 7, 2007 at 19:59
Kilo wrote:
Please don’t attack me! I have no spine and cannot fight back.
Little Pig wrote:
No, I think Kilo is comparing current norms to WW2. He seems to be saying that we’ve made significant moral advances since more people were killed in WW2 than are currently being tortured, and that anyone who disagrees is a grammar Nazi.
LittlePig said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:00
By George, shane’s dentist’s attorney’s bookie’s got it!
Which I think everyone can appreciate given the distinct lack of even a single enquiry from anyone asking me to clarify anything I’ve written
So Jillian’s 18:44 comment doesn’t count as an enquiry (not being purely direct), but your missives requiring an order of magnitude more inference are self-evident? Please.
Jillian said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:00
Yes, Kilo.
No one has asked you clarify anything
FGFM said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:01
As an aside…
Today on C-SPAN 2
Sunday 08:28 PM EDT 0:32 Forum
Caucus of Corruption
Young America’s Foundation, Reagan Ranch Center
Matt Margolis , Blogs for Bush
Mark Noonan , Blogs for Bush
LittlePig said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:03
Snorghagen points out:
No, I think Kilo is comparing current norms to WW2
Well hell, I see my problem. I assumed he didn’t have a batshit insane premise. My bad.
Hoosier X said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:04
No, I think Kilo is comparing current norms to WW2. He seems to be saying that we’ve made significant moral advances since more people were killed in WW2 than are currently being tortured, and that anyone who disagrees is a grammar Nazi.
Snorhagen, you forgot to explicitly ask Kevin or Dr. BLT or whatever his name is this week to clarify if you are incorrect. So that means you are spineless or pathetic … or something.
I miss Bruce.
cokane said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:09
well I can pretty certain Kilo is a wingnut if nothing else. His latest post is filled with the twisted ideas of courage and spinefulness that wingers typing behind their keyboards are so fond of.
g said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:10
Do I know Bruce? I have so much trouble keeping these trolls straight.
At the risk of invoking a visitation, I note that Kevin has been rather scarce lately. Maybe he got a job?
tigrismus said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:11
You’re upset because no one asked? Comments saying “wtf?” or wondering what your point was or telling you outright they couldn’t figure out what you were saying are no more oblique than your posts, but instead of explaining you said “figure it the fuck out,” so you can drop the sniffy outrage.
Jillian said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:11
At the risk of invoking a visitation, I note that Kevin has been rather scarce lately. Maybe he got a job?
The grass got long again.
Smiling Mortician said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:13
So that means you are spineless or pathetic … or something.
And transparent. Don’t forget transparent. That’s crucial.
adnoto said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:15
No? That is how I took this…
J— said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:15
Do I know Bruce? I have so much trouble keeping these trolls straight.
Bruce is a shooting star. And all the world will love him just as long as he are.
Smiling Mortician said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:21
I sincerely hope someone is paying J for providing links to all the troll context. I’d pony up myself, but, well, I’m cheap.
lawnguylander said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:22
Whatever kilo’s posts lack in coherence is more than made up for by a lack of brevity. Dumbasses. Don’t you recognize genius when it’s shoved in your faces?
Snorghagen said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:22
Spineless and transparent!
Hoosier X said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:25
Thanks so much, J-. You are awesome.
How the Hell did you find that so quick? I’m kind of stunned, to be perfectly honest, now that I’ve had a second to think about it.
ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:25
lawnguylander said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:22
Whatever kilo’s posts lack in coherence is more than made up for by a lack of brevity. Dumbasses. Don’t you recognize genius when it’s shoved in your faces?
I’m waiting for his fishsticks and applesauce recipe.
Kathy said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:26
I don’t think we need another or bigger Outrage, when we are shell shocked and numb from what we currently know. What we desperatly need is a LEADER, a real Leader, to focus our outrage and our desire to act. Someone like John Dean or Feingold. Edwards appears to be TRYING, whilst the other Pres contenders are just more of the same old same old. Times usually DO present a leader (Churchill, Roosevelt, etc.) but I haven’t seen one here yet.
g said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:33
J - do you have a Troll Compendium at hand? You’re awesome.
What’s up these days with annieangel and shoelimpy?
J— said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:34
Thanks, Smiling Mortician and Hoosier X. Your appreciation is compensation enough. I remembered Bruce made his cameo in the Great Dogstar Oil Thread, one I happen to have bookmarked. I believe Smiling Mortician was out of town when that went down.
zsa said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:36
Looks like Kilo’s a few grams short …
shane's dentist's attorney's bookie said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:39
Kilo stood on a platform in front of a class of Sadlynaughts and proclaimed “Lest anyone doubt that President Bush was justified in personally approving the torture of inmates at Gitmo, God will smite my ass within fifteen minutes.” The clocked ticked for a few seconds while the Sadlynaughts stared at each other in incomprehending disbelief, then two were slightly injured in the unaminous rush to the platform.
J— said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:40
g: Thanks. No, I’m afraid I don’t have a compendium, just a strange knack for remembering these characters and the general context in which they make their appearance here.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:42
Yeah that’s what those links confirm.
Hoosier X said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:47
And then, as if on cue, comes that Michael Medved column.
One of my co-workers printed this out to use as “evidence” in a “dispute” she is having with the black students in a political science class.
Believe me, I really wished I hadn’t said, So, how’s school going?
I told her I suspect she has a chip on her shoulder and perhaps her political science class adversaries have picked up on that. And then I went back to my desk with her yelling at my back. (Thank non-existent God it was the weekend and the workplace population density was rather low. Most of the people who work there would have agreed with her.)
shane's dentist's attorney's bookie said,
October 7, 2007 at 20:54
Hey, kilo, which did you mean when you said it was different for german technical people not being tortured, who may have been nazi party members, and built sonar and Enigma code machines to allow the german submarine force to sink american (civilian) mechant ships and killing american (civilian) sailors; and uniformed afghani soldiers (captured fighting in their home country) being sent to Gitmo to be tortured? Why doesn’t the Geneva Convention apply to our treatment of them? There, kilo, you’ve been asked a specific question, in a polite way, about what you’ve written.
An Adorable Kitten in a Humorous Pose said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:00
I cn haz nu thred plz? Kilo poo’d on ths 1.
LittlePig said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:02
Kilo said:
The US interrogations mentioned related to interviewing scientists, mathematicians and cipher operators who had knowledge of not only German cipher operations, but had also broken Russian ciphers, a primary concern of the US following the war
And
So yeah, you could say with a great deal of certainty that any and all jihadists interrogated today are worse, right down to the last man, than any of the German prisoners referred to in this story.
Those statements are contradictory. Because of the special knowledge they possessed, it was known the Germans in question were people with military intelligence. Given the mis-identified Canadian redited to Syria and tortured, (for whom there was no clear evidence that he possessed any relevant knowledge) it is clear in the current conflict such high standards for determining “who is torturable” are not followed.
Yet this innocent man is “worse” than the German prisoners who clearly participated in the war effort, a war effort that did not seem particularly concerned about the civilian status of Londoners or anyone else bombed.
So the ticking bomb scenario of which your argument *might* be worthy of consideration is not even in play here. Because folks are brown, they are “worse, right down to the last man” than Germans with demonstrable connection to the war effort. Since there is no legal requirement to prove reasonable cause, your “great deal of certainty” is horseshit.
Hoosier X said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:06
Considering Kilo’s obvious difficulties with comprehension, I can understand why he or she might have trouble figuring out what this might mean.
Guys, I think the real issue is that we were mean to Kilo. We hurt Kilo’s feelings. We need to be more politically correct. (And you know how important political correctness is to some people when it suits them.) We need to ask these questions in a way that takes Kilo’s cognitive problems into account. And refrain from language and tone that might upset Kilo.
So, my first question is … Um, I have to admit, I didn’t understand the original argument well enough to even have any questions.
Hoosier X said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:09
I am now seeing the genius of Kilo’s tactics. He or she can claim reasonably claim that this is NOT what he or she was trying to say, and none of us can dispute him or her.
mikey said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:11
Why do these people come here? What is their diet lacking that require them to come here, spew madness, dorkiness and overall incoherence and then argue their points with all the skill of a baboon driving a bus in city traffic?
Oh, and for all of you who miss Bruce? You’ll recall, I explained what happened to him (maybe J can find the reference). But I’ll be delighted to sell you some of his hair or fingers -er- fingerNAILS, yeah. Fingernails…
mikey
ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:19
What adorable kitten said.
Kevin kilo’s so-called thoughts and/or outraged “you’re repressing me…see the violence inherent in the system” protestations are just too lame and tired to devote another 100 comment thread to.
Via Glenn Greenwald.
David Broder and David Ignatius both have excellent columns in this morning’s Washington Post — excellent because of how vividly they illustrate the shallowness and dishonesty for our opinion-making elite. Impressively, even though the two columns are ostensibly about completely different topics — Broder writes about how terrible and self-destructive Congressional Democrats are being because they are too uncooperative and partisan (seriously) while Ignatius writes about the heroic efforts the Bush administration is undertaking to avoid war with Iran (seriously) — they are actually identical both in their tactics and their “substance.”
P.S. I left a comment for Dave Broder.
Legalize said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:20
Kilo, given that the Nazi Party, as a matter of express, systematic policy used their industrial base, and nationalistic ferver as a means of exterminating 6 million Jews, and millions of others, as a means of accomplishing their goals - and did it under the guise of law, how is it possible to imagine that what they accomplished and reasonably HOPED to accomplish is even in the same ballpark as an uncoordinated group of religious radicals with no indutrial, state, professional, or military capacity? The Germans specifically targeted civilian polulations, EVERY DAY AND NIGHT for a number of years - and did a good job at it. They destroyed societies; they destroyed generations; they destroyed economies; they destroyed the capacity of states to behave like state. This could not have been accomplished without the full participation of the state, including its professionals, industrialists, scientists, judges, etc. Can Al Queda and its confederates accomplish anything remotely similar to this?
In sum, if we captured learned, experienced, educated, and well-trained Nazi infiltrators who were hell-bent on destroying targets in this country, and thwarted them through traditional interrogation means, and good old police work, how is it possible that the same can not be accomplished with a bunch loose bunch of fanatics without the full backing of an advanced state?
Hoosier X said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:26
I don’t know why they come here, mikey. But I’m glad they do. It reaffirms my reality-based beliefs that they are dishonest idiots who have chosen ideology and ego over country, family, nature, reality and all that is good and noble in the human spirit.
If one of them ever shows up and starts a discussion without a whole legion of stereotypes, talking points, preconceptions, lame rationalizations, red herrings, concern trolleries, straw man arguments, false dichotomies, non sequitors, tactics for muddying the waters, tactics for avoiding the hard questions, tactics for backtracking and other similar schoolyard strategeries, THEN and only then, I will show them a little respect, and maybe that will enable me to look upon conservatives as people who merely have a different opinion, instead of a class of people much like Nazis and racists and Holocaust deniers who live in a world of delusion that they justify with smoking mirrors.
Trouble is, all the reasonable conservatives? They aren’t conservatives any more. The definition has changed, and there is no subset that includes reasonable and conservative.
The Micah said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:28
I thought that was so we could
get all that “useful” scientific knowledge garnered from years of experimenting on human beings all for our own healthy purposesfigure out who was sending the checks to Grampaw Prescott. /national security gag¡El Gato Negro! said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:29
Pipples are funny pipples…
I theenk the purpose of las trollitas never changes, no matter what name they use.
Their purpose ees to join a thread and disprupt discussion, wheech has been accomplished here.
Good trollita, then, jour purpose has been served, joo can go away now.
The original question that the author used at the end of her post was:
How about you? What would it take for you to feel genuine outrage again?
A question wheech I find that I can no answer properly, as I have yet to stop feeling rrreal outrage.
so.
Clarence Carter said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:35
maybe J can find the reference
Okay.
mikey said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:36
I suppose, Hoosier. But the other edge of that sword is that I am forced into the realization that there are perfectly normal looking people walking around who are that deluded, that bigoted, that filled with hate and fear, and until they pop up and spew their terror and it’s attendent authoritarian prescriptions and solutions, you might think they were just like you and me.
What is it in our society that can create a Hunter Thompson, a Martin King, people with a soul who care about humanity, both their own and the worlds, and at the same time can produce these scared angry little adolescents, who’s only solution to any problem is to kill it and destroy every last trace of what it might have been?
I keep thinking back to that thread here a few weeks ago where the woman was so desperate for the US to wage war on Iran who had a son in Iraq. How can a woman with a child in combat wish for war upon another woman’s children? How can that be? What is missing from these people, other than the vague concept of “humanity”, that they cannot see that killing another million muslims or mexicans or gays will not make their world better, will not ease their fears, and will most certainly not make them in any sense “safer”?
mikey
J— said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:37
Oh, crap, I’ve just blown my cover. What the hell: I be stroking!
Principal Blackman said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:41
It sounds like Jillian, Brad, etc., etc. are Frankenstein!
Ooooh! Sing “Puttin’ on the Ritz!”
Bob said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:42
Wingtards don’t get torture unless it involves slow restocking of the Cheetos shelf at Walmart and mom forgetting to put the Diet Dr. Pepper in the fridge.
Pere Ubu said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:49
Is waterboarding torture?
Appy polly logies if this has been covered already, but you know who else thought waterboarding was a really keen idea for “interrogations”?
The Khmer Rouge.
Seems to me we’d have thought it was torture back then. But then again, We Do It For The Right Reasons, eh?
Snorghagen said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:49
I feel plenty of outrage, but with more and more horrors every week my threshold for anger keeps increasing. I feel like I’m slowly becoming morally numb. I think most people are to some degree. It’s disquieting… and potentially dangerous.
And yes, I’m amazed that torture is begin treated almost as a legitimate political issue, something that can be debated like tax policy. That’s truly fucked up.
Lesley said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:50
Ed is such a dimwit he quotes - to bolster his own argument - a WWII soldier who takes pride in never laying a hand on anyone during interrogations. Such a man would despise Captain Ed and all he stands for. Doesn’t he get that?
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 21:55
I wonder what the alternate read would be. Me saying that hey these Germans were non-combatants and scientists who were being debriefed by other scientists on highly complex matter seems to be so confusing when it comes to the question of whether they’re just like wannabe-martyr jihadists.
Yeah, they were. You can read their text at the top of this page that says precisely that. It being the only thing written in between blocks of quoted text they’re reponding to kind of highlights it as the response they are making.
Ed does indeed need to do this. He’s a right-wing pundit, that’s his job. But he only needs to do this for his readership. Which doesn’t effect you, anyone else here, nor any meaningful portion of the population. Unless there is some concern here for whether or not Ed keeps his current readership, this would appear to be irrelevant.
In fact when it comes to any meaningful segment of the population, the opposite is true. Ed doesn’t need to do this. Just like he didn’t even need to attend the big Keep Guantanamo Open rally last weekend. He didn’t even need to mention it. In fact it wasn’t even necessary to have one in the first place, now was it.
Can you even recall the last time someone made an unsolicited or non-responsive arguement for that ? Something which wasn’t a required right-wing commentator take on a news story or a counter-arguement ? You know, the kind that are so predictable and obvious that you don’t even need to read them, let alone respond to them ?
Can you recall how hard all the right-wingers needed to fight to keep issues like the closure of Guantanamo, the prohibition on rendition flights, the return of all detainees to US court juristiction and oversight and the investigations of black sites and detainee deaths off the agenda once the Democrats took back congress ?
Hang on, there was no fight was there. No debate, no press conferences, no showdowns over the moral values of the country, no bills, not even a half arsed non-binding proposal.
So Ed really doesn’t need to do shit now does he. In fact, someone might get the idea that Ed isn’t really the problem. That he’s not exactly a barrier of any sort to changing these policies if anyone actually wanted to change them. So pretending that he is might just be nothing more than a convenient distraction.
Which will get far less convenient come Feb 2008. When the excuse that once you get rid of Bush everything will change will need to be replaced by another excuse for why it hasn’t.
Again, this is irrelevant. The previous administration started a renditions program in violation of international law and a US law which said nothing other than renditions are illegal. No 9/11, nobody gung ho for torturing terrorists, no legal entaglements, no irrelevant arguements from bloggers. Shit, they didn’t even need to create obfuscation. The reason being that the only people who would supposedly have a moral obligation to protest this, wouldn’t.
Where’s that fucker looking up my posts in the archives ?
Have him search for “rendition” here. You can find me in those threads yet again being rather unpopular. And you can read through everyone here denying, despite every researched account to the contrary, that such a thing ever took place before GWB was sworn in. The exact same response I get when reminding people of the blanket domestic surveillence programs under the previous administration.
Gee I wonder if having the supporters of the party in power denying that anything they oppose is happing has any effect on permitting it to continue unhindered.
Which we can only assume is right back where we will be in a year and a half’s time. More denial, excuses and apologists, just with different colours. Which brings us to this….
No, it’s right where it should be.
In regard to torture and the period between WW2 and now, the only thing that I am aware of that hasn’t changed is that the US has been running the exact same torture school on US soil for the duration.
The presidency and control of congress has changed quite a few times in that period. In fact I think the Democrats held congress for most of it and it received the most press coverage it ever will during the presidency of probably the most liberal Democrat President we’ll see for a while to come.
There’s a lesson there about misplaced anger. Unless of course you wanted to nail down which pundits made really good arguments about the NYT’s patriotism every 2 years for that entire period, which resulted in this as unwaivering bipartisan policy.
The lesson is about the certain outcome where those who pretend to stand for certain principles do so only in token terms and choose to pursue meaningless fights with irrelevant figures rather than those who could actually change something.
Another lesson will probably come when we discuss whether this blog showed up for the big Close Guantanamo Now rally of 2011, and lack thereof.
Jillian said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:00
For the record, I *still* have no idea what Kilo is talking about.
I blame the lack of drugs in my life.
Some Guy said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:02
Nazi’s no kill civilians?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
Fail.
Robert Waldmann said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:05
No problem Jillian. I can’t get outraged at Republicans anymore, but the Democrats in congress are making sure I don’t miss the experience
http://tinyurl.com/2zt2jr.
They have no desire to defend the constitution and I’m outraged that we are going to have to try to reward them by holding our noses and voting for them so there won’t be powerful Republicans shredding it.
Lesley said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:12
Kilo seems to be ConEd’s press secretary/non-apologist.
Shorter Kilo:
a) Confederate Yankee is a powerless nobody who has no influence and attacking his right wing pundit hobby makes you a petty bully boy.
b) Other governments have done despicable things including unlawful surveillance and allowing the School of the Americas to continue, therefore it’s hypocritical of you to attack Bush and the right wing pundits who support him.
Kevin Bacon Holding A Short Roll Of Playdoh said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:12
It’s pretty easy Jillian, as “Kilo”s last post shows… You, ALL of you, left and right, aren’t as special or important or pure as Kilo. He hates the fact that you are here laughing at people on the right, because in his mind you are just like them, and he takes that as a personal affront to his own, different-from-you-all style of politics. Which he’s illustrated by turning up here, being aggressively incoherant, then refusing to face his own anti social and anti-intellectual behaviour; which he compounds by then just brushing off 7 links which shows he’s been told he’s being incoherant as “That’s not what they say”, because he KNOWS what you want to say more than you do, and then dragging the topic off onto another of his own pet peeves; Perhaps what he even wants to say is “Vote Third Party” in Febuary 2008… of course, when people did that, they got Bush. Because you see, he’s not changing anything that really matters either; certainly not the voters on the right or the left. If he was, he wouldn’t be so riddled with incoherant anger… He wants to be different to everyone… but why aren’t people more like me?! Especially when I keep insulting them with comments along the lines of “but you won’t be at that rally either, because you don’t care as much as I do”.
Incoherent mpotence on the internet is an ugly thing indeed.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:14
I can’t think of a scenario where that is likely. Luckily though, nobody was discussing anything which relates to that question or answer.
No, the US fills that role here, just as it did back then. Again, this doesn’t appear to be relevant.
Well the most obvious reason would be because the two environments and attackers are entirely different. They share literally nothing in common other than the defender. Secondly, because recorded history tells you so.
Is there a reason we are discussing this also ? It doesn’t appear to relate to the topic of this article.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:16
You may be the dumbest cunt on the internet. Seriously.
Smiling Mortician said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:16
For the record, I *still* have no idea what Kilo is talking about.
Yes but to be fair, neither does Kilo.
However, I do like the random inclusion of phrases like “and lack thereof” at the ends of sentences, just to crank things up to Nonsense Level 11.
Some Guy said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:17
I have no cunt, but okay.
Lesley said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:18
You want depressing, women and girls are experiencing a “rape epidemic” in the Congo. (and when they say rape they mean destroyed from the inside out with bayonets and blocks of wood).
Oh yeah, war is a fucking cake walk for civilians.
Lesley said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:20
Kilo, why don’t you take your wee angry penis somewhere else? Trolls aren’t welcome here.
Jillian said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:21
Kilo - for the record once again - no one here has the slightest idea what the hell you are going on about.
At this moment in time, you are arguing with yourself. The rest of us are sitting on the sidelines, sipping at our beverage of choice, and commenting on how this is perhaps the strangest display of behavior we’ve seen around these parts in….oh, a good two weeks or so.
We don’t agree with you. We don’t disagree with you. We haven’t a clue what you are on about. It’s sort of vaguely amusing, I guess, but I’m finding that without the right potable, the amusement factor diminishes.
I think this means I need a drink if I’m going to go on reading this.
Snorghagen said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:23
Is he opposed to the right as well as to the left? I can’t make it out.
And what does he mean by this:
Which will get far less convenient come Feb 2008. When the excuse that once you get rid of Bush everything will change will need to be replaced by another excuse for why it hasn’t.
What’s supposed to happen in February 2008?
It’s like trying to decipher some long-forgotten language.
Jillian said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:26
Wait….does he think this is a pro-Democratic party blog?
Because that sentence might actually make sense if he does think that!
Ooh! Now I’m getting excited! It’s like working with Minoan Linear A script!
I always wanted to be an archaeologist when I was a kid. I blame it on the Indiana Jones movies.
mikey said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:26
Hell, I read it over BREAKFAST! Now I do deserve a medal.
I can’t tell if this asshat is for torture, against torture, was for torture before he was against torture, or is even clear on what torture is.
Jillian’s right. It’s arguing with itself. I think it’s a “Star Trek” episode.
It really is too bad we’re a bunch of DFHs without the discipline to simply ignore these clods. We kind of suck.
But we are indeed much better writers…
mikey
Smiling Mortician said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:28
sipping at our beverage of choice
Dammit! Be right back.
. . .
Ah. Now that’s better. Carry on.
Pere Ubu said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:28
Wait….does he think this is a pro-Democratic party blog?
why of course - everyone knows the left is a monolithic entity where every post we make is first vetted by Hitlery herself for Political Correctness ™.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:29
Yeah and you appear to be a pedophile to the same degree.
I’ve corrected that. Disagree with it.
I’ve corrected that too. Disagree with it.
Some Guy said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:29
Shakka, when the walls fell. At Tena’gra.
tigrismus said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:31
Kilo thinks we all are true believers in American exceptionalism, and thinks some past thread shows us all, to a kitten, vehemently denying America ever did anything bad before Bush Jr.
Jillian said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:34
Ooh, tigrismus, you’re good!
Is that really what he’s going on about? Because if it is, I’m going to start calling you “Rosetta”. Short for Rosetta stone, you know.
The school I teach at is in a poor neighborhood, and we often enough have mentally ill homeless people wandering through our campus. This particular internet exchange puts me in mind of some of the exchanges I’ve had with our random campus denizens.
Legalize said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:36
Well, that’s convenient, Kilo. When nothing is relevant, especially drawing the overall pictures of the two conflcits that are the subject of the article and of the discussion as a means of determining your frame of reference, you don’t have to be coherent, provide any measure of support for your assertions (which thus far aren’t entirely clear), and declare “history” to be as you see it.
Again, you’re not being clear. You’re being conclusory and dismissive of anything that disturbs what ever position you are taking. That fact that you refuse to define your position is naturally going to open you up to inquries to seek it out.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:36
Did you not notice I dedicated my first post here to pointing out you had no clue what you were talking about ?
Jillian said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:39
Hail, Kilo!
Me Jillian. Me speaking English. It be goodgood language.
What language you be speaking? It not be goodgood like English, Jillian think.
(Alas, I never would have made it as an anthropologist, which was my second career choice after archaeologist.)
Lesley said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:40
Corrected that. Disagree with it.
So…you reword what I say to make it reflect what you think and then disagree with yourself?
Ok.
stop complaining about irrelevant bloggers and start on those Democrats in power who did nothing to stop it this week in congress and will do nothing in the next administration
Kilo, how long have you been reading this blog. One day?
I suggest you have a look through the archives.
cokane said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:41
this is a comedy blog Kilo, not an activist blog. This blog leans left, clearly, but that doesn’t mean it supports the Democratic party. If you actually look at some of the past postings, Brad in particular, you will find a great deal of outrage at that party. The kind of outrage your expectations demand we live up to.
mikey said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:42
I think that’s because you would tease the bonobos, Jillian…
mikey
RubDMC said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:43
I’m just taking a quick break from Sox/Angels, and what do I see but a bunch of blah blah blah in 2.2 pound increments.
Back to some basuboru.
Jillian said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:43
Don’t be so sure you guys have figured Kilo out yet…..remember what happens to people who rush their translations.
Smiling Mortician said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:43
I think you’re onto something important, Some Guy. Lemme see if I can help.
[turns toward Kilo]
Temba, his arms wide.
tigrismus said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:43
Well, there’s also the “why hasn’t anyone here ever said anything bad about Democrats ever, who are just as culpable” part, which shows Kilo hasn’t read here much.
But Kilo, your fingers seem to work fine, if the writing here doesn’t measure up to your standards why don’t you write your own goddamn blog? Rag on sadlies like they rag on wingnuts, do it with humor and maybe a wee bit more clarity, and hell, more power to you.
Snorghagen said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:43
Interesting arguing technique, eh? It’s especially confusing to people who have taken hallucinogens.
tigrismus said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:45
Mikey, bonobos LOVE teasing…
Smiling Mortician said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:47
blah blah blah in 2.2 pound
incrementsexcrements.Better.
Lesley said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:49
Kilo, I recommend this primer: In the Fever Swamp of the Radical Wingnuts.
Kilo said,
October 7, 2007 at 22:50
Except you weren’t talking about the subject of the article. You were talking about whether al Qaeda could conquer eastern europe, how the US captured Nazi sabatours and something else, none of which were contained in or related to the article.
That’s why they weren’t relevant nimrod.
Yeah. And I REALLY don’t have to provide support for assertions I don’t make. You asked me 3 long questions about whether I think muslim extremists are as big of a threat as the Nazis. I told you I don’t and that neither I nor anyone I’ve responded to here has made that arguement.
WTF are you not understanding here ?
How the fuck did I refuse to define my position, when I answered you and said that I could not imagine under any circumstances how a different answer could be arrived at. That is as defined as an answer can get. Likewise, stating that two attackers have nothing in common other than their target is as defined as a position as I can state, unless your country changes it’s name.