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	<title>Comments on: Now That&#8217;s What I Call Conservatism</title>
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	<description>Poise! Poise!</description>
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		<title>By: Sadly, No! &#187; From Morn To Noonan He Fell; From Noonan To Dewy Eve</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-627031</link>
		<dc:creator>Sadly, No! &#187; From Morn To Noonan He Fell; From Noonan To Dewy Eve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 05:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] with a man who says that Enlightenment notions of universal rights and intrinsic human worth ruined the perfect Christian civilization of 12th-century Europe, but it&#8217;s been something of a subtext to our brutal, years-long mockery of Mark that we kind [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] with a man who says that Enlightenment notions of universal rights and intrinsic human worth ruined the perfect Christian civilization of 12th-century Europe, but it&#8217;s been something of a subtext to our brutal, years-long mockery of Mark that we kind [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Online adult personals</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-260595</link>
		<dc:creator>Online adult personals</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2007 13:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-260595</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt; Biggest dating portal in the world, come meet women tonight!...&lt;/strong&gt;

...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong> Biggest dating portal in the world, come meet women tonight!&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Phersu</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-102804</link>
		<dc:creator>Phersu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 20:46:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-102804</guid>
		<description>Catarrhyptine is a beautiful word. 

Google claims it exists only on this page. We need to expand its seductions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Catarrhyptine is a beautiful word. </p>
<p>Google claims it exists only on this page. We need to expand its seductions.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Smiling Mortician</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-102371</link>
		<dc:creator>Smiling Mortician</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 02:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-102371</guid>
		<description>Ah, portly, so &lt;i&gt;you&#039;re&lt;/i&gt; the one. Are you by any chance sitting in the comfy chair?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, portly, so <i>you&#8217;re</i> the one. Are you by any chance sitting in the comfy chair?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: portly neighbor</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-102369</link>
		<dc:creator>portly neighbor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 02:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-102369</guid>
		<description>Frankly, I was expecting some mention of the Spanish Inquisition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frankly, I was expecting some mention of the Spanish Inquisition.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Smiling Mortician</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-102335</link>
		<dc:creator>Smiling Mortician</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 01:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-102335</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m no expert (actually, I am in a way) but I&#039;d say just drinking ought to do it. Skip the bleach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m no expert (actually, I am in a way) but I&#8217;d say just drinking ought to do it. Skip the bleach.</p>
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		<title>By: Jillian</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-102323</link>
		<dc:creator>Jillian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 00:45:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-102323</guid>
		<description>Oh, lord.

I think I&#039;m going to go scrub my brain with bleach and then drink way, way, way too much.

&#039;scuse me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, lord.</p>
<p>I think I&#8217;m going to go scrub my brain with bleach and then drink way, way, way too much.</p>
<p>&#8217;scuse me.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Smiling Mortician</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-102318</link>
		<dc:creator>Smiling Mortician</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 00:39:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-102318</guid>
		<description>Jillian, not to short-change a great post, but I&#039;d be totally remiss if I didn&#039;t point out the single funniest chunk of wordage I&#039;ve ever read here -- and of course it&#039;s funniest because it was written by you:

&lt;i&gt;that makes me peg Noonan&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jillian, not to short-change a great post, but I&#8217;d be totally remiss if I didn&#8217;t point out the single funniest chunk of wordage I&#8217;ve ever read here &#8212; and of course it&#8217;s funniest because it was written by you:</p>
<p><i>that makes me peg Noonan</i></p>
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		<title>By: Jillian</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-102294</link>
		<dc:creator>Jillian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 23:51:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-102294</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;Gahâ€¦Iâ€™ll try not to get started on thisâ€¦I could go on for way too long if I do.&lt;/i&gt;

Oh, let â€˜er rip. I spent a long time thinking about Noonan today, and it would help clean out my poor, abused cortexâ€¦ &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, I actually was going to dig into the Noonan &lt;i&gt;oeuvre&lt;/i&gt; to see what sort of Dominionist connections I could find, but in an act of astonishing Christian charity and compassion, my motherboard self-immolated before I could start, saving me from looking at any of his logorrhea.  For real....I&#039;m on a friend&#039;s computer right now.  Hopefully mine&#039;ll be up and running by Monday.

It&#039;s really &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.blogsforbush.com/mt/archives/007726.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; infamous article that makes me peg Noonan as a Dominionist sympathizer.  it&#039;s a pretty classic page from their playbook.  

Evolution is, oddly enough, probably the the most significant frontline battle in the culture wars.  In fact, if you make an analogy where the forces of secular rationalism are Stalin&#039;s Russia and the forces of Christian theocracy are Hitler&#039;s Germany, then the battle over evolution is the equivqalent of the occupation of the Ruhr.  It seems like a small enough thing - unless you&#039;ve been paying attention to what your enemy has planned.  If you&#039;ve been paying attention, it&#039;s the start of something much bigger, much worse.

The deal with evolution is that it provides us with a secular, materialist account of the origins of humanity (not the origins of life, mind: the origins of humanity).  In doing this, it usurps TWO of the domains traditionally reserved for religion - it tells a &quot;creation story&quot;, and it uses reason and empirical inquiry to do so.  This puts it in direct, unavoidable confrontation with literalist understandings of the Bible.  And in doing so, it cuts directly at the heart of literalist morality and authority - by giving us a reasonable alternative.  

The people who want to see this country completely goverened by the tenets laid out in a literalist reading of the Bible cannot allow such a competing mythology to go unchallenged.  And that&#039;s exactly how they see it, too: as a series of competing metanarratives (It&#039;s funny how the Biblical literalists seem to be so inspired by the freewheelingly liberal poststructuralists, but there you go).  

To these guys, any time there is a conflict between basing a decision on reason and basing a decision on faith, you&#039;re in a situation where you are confronting two alternate and equally valid views of the world: one inspired by God, and one inspired by the fallen, sinful world.  Don&#039;t ask me how they reconcile stuff like the germ theory of disease or anything, because I haven&#039;t figured it out myself.

The clearest place where this insanity gets laid out that I know of is in something called the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wedge Document&lt;/a&gt;.  They don&#039;t even bother to hide what they&#039;re up to, clearly stating that they want to &quot;replace materialistic explanations [in science] with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God&quot;.  Ironically enough, this brings us right back around to our good friends at the Discovery Institute, as the Wedge Document was produced by them.

Sheesh.  That&#039;s enough for right now, I think.  I need a drink after that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><i>Gahâ€¦Iâ€™ll try not to get started on thisâ€¦I could go on for way too long if I do.</i></p>
<p>Oh, let â€˜er rip. I spent a long time thinking about Noonan today, and it would help clean out my poor, abused cortexâ€¦ </p></blockquote>
<p>Well, I actually was going to dig into the Noonan <i>oeuvre</i> to see what sort of Dominionist connections I could find, but in an act of astonishing Christian charity and compassion, my motherboard self-immolated before I could start, saving me from looking at any of his logorrhea.  For real&#8230;.I&#8217;m on a friend&#8217;s computer right now.  Hopefully mine&#8217;ll be up and running by Monday.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s really <a href="http://www.blogsforbush.com/mt/archives/007726.html" rel="nofollow">this</a> infamous article that makes me peg Noonan as a Dominionist sympathizer.  it&#8217;s a pretty classic page from their playbook.  </p>
<p>Evolution is, oddly enough, probably the the most significant frontline battle in the culture wars.  In fact, if you make an analogy where the forces of secular rationalism are Stalin&#8217;s Russia and the forces of Christian theocracy are Hitler&#8217;s Germany, then the battle over evolution is the equivqalent of the occupation of the Ruhr.  It seems like a small enough thing &#8211; unless you&#8217;ve been paying attention to what your enemy has planned.  If you&#8217;ve been paying attention, it&#8217;s the start of something much bigger, much worse.</p>
<p>The deal with evolution is that it provides us with a secular, materialist account of the origins of humanity (not the origins of life, mind: the origins of humanity).  In doing this, it usurps TWO of the domains traditionally reserved for religion &#8211; it tells a &#8220;creation story&#8221;, and it uses reason and empirical inquiry to do so.  This puts it in direct, unavoidable confrontation with literalist understandings of the Bible.  And in doing so, it cuts directly at the heart of literalist morality and authority &#8211; by giving us a reasonable alternative.  </p>
<p>The people who want to see this country completely goverened by the tenets laid out in a literalist reading of the Bible cannot allow such a competing mythology to go unchallenged.  And that&#8217;s exactly how they see it, too: as a series of competing metanarratives (It&#8217;s funny how the Biblical literalists seem to be so inspired by the freewheelingly liberal poststructuralists, but there you go).  </p>
<p>To these guys, any time there is a conflict between basing a decision on reason and basing a decision on faith, you&#8217;re in a situation where you are confronting two alternate and equally valid views of the world: one inspired by God, and one inspired by the fallen, sinful world.  Don&#8217;t ask me how they reconcile stuff like the germ theory of disease or anything, because I haven&#8217;t figured it out myself.</p>
<p>The clearest place where this insanity gets laid out that I know of is in something called the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy" rel="nofollow">Wedge Document</a>.  They don&#8217;t even bother to hide what they&#8217;re up to, clearly stating that they want to &#8220;replace materialistic explanations [in science] with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God&#8221;.  Ironically enough, this brings us right back around to our good friends at the Discovery Institute, as the Wedge Document was produced by them.</p>
<p>Sheesh.  That&#8217;s enough for right now, I think.  I need a drink after that.</p>
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		<title>By: Kathleen</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-102281</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathleen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 23:19:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-102281</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;the propagandists of the Renaissance&lt;/i&gt;

 how do I get that gig?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>the propagandists of the Renaissance</i></p>
<p> how do I get that gig?</p>
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		<title>By: josh</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-102128</link>
		<dc:creator>josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 18:57:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-102128</guid>
		<description>I learned everything I know about European history from Eddie Izzard and I still know more than this guy.  Sheesh...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I learned everything I know about European history from Eddie Izzard and I still know more than this guy.  Sheesh&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-102018</link>
		<dc:creator>The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 15:44:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-102018</guid>
		<description>2006 - Her swealt Noonanus from him selfum ofsticod.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2006 &#8211; Her swealt Noonanus from him selfum ofsticod.</p>
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		<title>By: Erasmus of Rotterdam</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-102002</link>
		<dc:creator>Erasmus of Rotterdam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 15:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-102002</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If youâ€™re going to take Noonan to task for his ignorance of history, perhaps you should demonstrate that you all know more about it.&lt;/i&gt;

I only wish that I had conceived of Noonan when I wrote &lt;i&gt;Praise of Folly&lt;/i&gt;. That is all I shall say on that subject, beeyotch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If youâ€™re going to take Noonan to task for his ignorance of history, perhaps you should demonstrate that you all know more about it.</i></p>
<p>I only wish that I had conceived of Noonan when I wrote <i>Praise of Folly</i>. That is all I shall say on that subject, beeyotch.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl the GM</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-101971</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl the GM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 14:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-101971</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Oh, Mark Noonan makes me long for those halcyon days of the Black Death and the 100 Yearâ€™s War, and the slaughter of the Albigensians! Yes, those were the days; the days where men were serfs and only the clergy could write, and only they could read the Bible which was printed only in Latin. When everyone knew the sun revolved around the earth, and that if you sailed too far east in the Atlantic, youâ€™d fall off the edge of the world.&lt;/i&gt;

First, Menshevik, thanks. You&#039;ll see there&#039;s a few professional medievalists in this thread. I&#039;m one of them. So, 1) serfdom isn&#039;t something that endemic throughout the middle ages. So far as I know--and this is way outside my field of specialty--you have slaves, and you have free peasants, up until, say, the 11th c. And you have serfs for a while, but in some places, that lasts only a couple of centuries. In other places, notoriously Russia, you don&#039;t have serfs at all prior to, what, the 17th or 18th c. So, yeah, it&#039;s a great deal more complicated, and, at any rate, there&#039;s not a great deal of difference--in terms of freedom of movement, in terms of freedom of labor, in terms of quality of life--between a serf and people working in a pre-union factory, whether we&#039;re in England c. 1800 or China or South Carolina c. now; 2) a great many people other than clerics could write. Chaucer, for instance. Literacy becomes an important skill for secular elites and their employees in the 12th c., but you really should say &lt;i&gt;reading&lt;/i&gt; rather than &lt;i&gt;writing,&lt;/i&gt; since writing is something you hire someone else to do, at least if you have the money to do that. You have to think literacy, in other words, in a different way than we do now; 3) translations of the Bible into vernacular languages begin with translations into Old English in pre-Conquest England. There&#039;s a break of a hundred years or so, and then we start to see a huge amount of biblical material translated into French in the 12th and 13th centuries, both on the Continent and in England. You probably know the translations into Middle English in the late 14th/early 15th centuries best, but only because those Lollard translators had an ideological program of democratizing information: which explains why they were chased into exile, silenced, or burned at the stake; 4) the sun around the Earth thing, you&#039;ll remember, continues to be an error well into the &quot;modern&quot; era (which is an era, you&#039;ll know, rife with religious conflict: someone mentioned the 30 years war, above, and the French massacres of the Huguenots); 5) people knew the earth was round in the MA. 

Now, I mentioned critiques of the Enlightenment, above. Noonan, knowing nothing, likely doesn&#039;t know anything about critical theory, so he doesn&#039;t know deeder about the Frankfurt School, but there have been critiques of the Enlightenment from the left at least since the 1920s, right?

--

You know what&#039;s funny and sad to me? Noonan&#039;s an Irish name, right? Why the f would an Irishman long for the 12th c.? Is he crazy? It&#039;s sort of like an Irishman falling in love with Cromwell or Churchill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Oh, Mark Noonan makes me long for those halcyon days of the Black Death and the 100 Yearâ€™s War, and the slaughter of the Albigensians! Yes, those were the days; the days where men were serfs and only the clergy could write, and only they could read the Bible which was printed only in Latin. When everyone knew the sun revolved around the earth, and that if you sailed too far east in the Atlantic, youâ€™d fall off the edge of the world.</i></p>
<p>First, Menshevik, thanks. You&#8217;ll see there&#8217;s a few professional medievalists in this thread. I&#8217;m one of them. So, 1) serfdom isn&#8217;t something that endemic throughout the middle ages. So far as I know&#8211;and this is way outside my field of specialty&#8211;you have slaves, and you have free peasants, up until, say, the 11th c. And you have serfs for a while, but in some places, that lasts only a couple of centuries. In other places, notoriously Russia, you don&#8217;t have serfs at all prior to, what, the 17th or 18th c. So, yeah, it&#8217;s a great deal more complicated, and, at any rate, there&#8217;s not a great deal of difference&#8211;in terms of freedom of movement, in terms of freedom of labor, in terms of quality of life&#8211;between a serf and people working in a pre-union factory, whether we&#8217;re in England c. 1800 or China or South Carolina c. now; 2) a great many people other than clerics could write. Chaucer, for instance. Literacy becomes an important skill for secular elites and their employees in the 12th c., but you really should say <i>reading</i> rather than <i>writing,</i> since writing is something you hire someone else to do, at least if you have the money to do that. You have to think literacy, in other words, in a different way than we do now; 3) translations of the Bible into vernacular languages begin with translations into Old English in pre-Conquest England. There&#8217;s a break of a hundred years or so, and then we start to see a huge amount of biblical material translated into French in the 12th and 13th centuries, both on the Continent and in England. You probably know the translations into Middle English in the late 14th/early 15th centuries best, but only because those Lollard translators had an ideological program of democratizing information: which explains why they were chased into exile, silenced, or burned at the stake; 4) the sun around the Earth thing, you&#8217;ll remember, continues to be an error well into the &#8220;modern&#8221; era (which is an era, you&#8217;ll know, rife with religious conflict: someone mentioned the 30 years war, above, and the French massacres of the Huguenots); 5) people knew the earth was round in the MA. </p>
<p>Now, I mentioned critiques of the Enlightenment, above. Noonan, knowing nothing, likely doesn&#8217;t know anything about critical theory, so he doesn&#8217;t know deeder about the Frankfurt School, but there have been critiques of the Enlightenment from the left at least since the 1920s, right?</p>
<p>&#8211;</p>
<p>You know what&#8217;s funny and sad to me? Noonan&#8217;s an Irish name, right? Why the f would an Irishman long for the 12th c.? Is he crazy? It&#8217;s sort of like an Irishman falling in love with Cromwell or Churchill.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Someone</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-101962</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Someone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 13:30:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-101962</guid>
		<description>The Albigensians had it coming, with all their... Albigensing around like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Albigensians had it coming, with all their&#8230; Albigensing around like that.</p>
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		<title>By: Menshevik</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-101957</link>
		<dc:creator>Menshevik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 13:09:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-101957</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;re going to take Noonan to task for his ignorance of history, perhaps you should demonstrate that you all know more about it. It is a bit funny to see quite a few posters here relying on the good old myths and caricatures about the middle ages (oh, those crazy medieval people, they thought you would fall off the edge of the world if you sailed too far! (BTW, lovely slip-up about sailing too far EAST on the Atlantic!) and talk as if labeling an era as the &quot;dark ages&quot; actually makes them dark. (Besides that there seems to be a bit of straw-man arguments, because at least in the quoted part I don&#039;t see where Noonan denied that there were wars (or pandemics) in the middle ages). Fact is, the middle ages were a great deal more complex and more &quot;modern&quot; than most people are accustomed to and comfortably like to think since the Renaissance. The break between the Renaissance and what came before was not as radical as both the propagandists of the Renaissance and Mr. Noonan like to think, in many ways it (and to some extent also the Englightenment) continued and built on the medieval legacy.
Guess the habits are too deeply ingrained - in common usage the term &quot;medieval&quot; is loaded, when you call something medieval it is nearly always meant in a negative way; in general, something medieval is seen as not as good as something that goes back to antiquity (example of the former: universities, example of the latter: chattel slavery in which slaves are treated as objects).
BTW, playing devil&#039;s advocate for a minute: if the middle ages can be blamed for Galileo&#039;s problems, is Enlightenment to blame for the much more serious problems non-adherents of Lysenkoism ran into under Stalin?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;re going to take Noonan to task for his ignorance of history, perhaps you should demonstrate that you all know more about it. It is a bit funny to see quite a few posters here relying on the good old myths and caricatures about the middle ages (oh, those crazy medieval people, they thought you would fall off the edge of the world if you sailed too far! (BTW, lovely slip-up about sailing too far EAST on the Atlantic!) and talk as if labeling an era as the &#8220;dark ages&#8221; actually makes them dark. (Besides that there seems to be a bit of straw-man arguments, because at least in the quoted part I don&#8217;t see where Noonan denied that there were wars (or pandemics) in the middle ages). Fact is, the middle ages were a great deal more complex and more &#8220;modern&#8221; than most people are accustomed to and comfortably like to think since the Renaissance. The break between the Renaissance and what came before was not as radical as both the propagandists of the Renaissance and Mr. Noonan like to think, in many ways it (and to some extent also the Englightenment) continued and built on the medieval legacy.<br />
Guess the habits are too deeply ingrained &#8211; in common usage the term &#8220;medieval&#8221; is loaded, when you call something medieval it is nearly always meant in a negative way; in general, something medieval is seen as not as good as something that goes back to antiquity (example of the former: universities, example of the latter: chattel slavery in which slaves are treated as objects).<br />
BTW, playing devil&#8217;s advocate for a minute: if the middle ages can be blamed for Galileo&#8217;s problems, is Enlightenment to blame for the much more serious problems non-adherents of Lysenkoism ran into under Stalin?</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Watts</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-101947</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Watts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 12:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-101947</guid>
		<description>Everything&#039;s gone down hill since the gay atheist treasonous appeasers let Copernicus and Galileo off with a slap on the limp wrist ...

It&#039;s the Muslims fault for keeping all those Greek and Roman books in hiding even after we burned the entire library of Alexandria and declared Mission Accomplished.

It&#039;s the Indians fault for inventing zero and creating a mathematical symbol of my value to early 21st century civilization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everything&#8217;s gone down hill since the gay atheist treasonous appeasers let Copernicus and Galileo off with a slap on the limp wrist &#8230;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the Muslims fault for keeping all those Greek and Roman books in hiding even after we burned the entire library of Alexandria and declared Mission Accomplished.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the Indians fault for inventing zero and creating a mathematical symbol of my value to early 21st century civilization.</p>
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		<title>By: Menshevik</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-101946</link>
		<dc:creator>Menshevik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 11:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-101946</guid>
		<description>While not wishing to defend the nuttiness of Mr. Noonan, the depiction of the middle ages by the propagandists of the renaissance and enlightenment was polemic and often fallacious. For instance, the &quot;ius primae noctis&quot; which so often forms part of enlightenment and post-entlightenment discourse on the middle ages had no base in fact. Renaissance polemics against the middle ages structurally actually were a bit like Noonan&#039;s, only their &quot;golden age&quot; was the time of Greeks and Romans with their slave-based economy, at times genocidal wars etc. which at times went a long way to deny their own medieval roots or that there was anything good about the middle ages (maybe something useful like the horse-collar and other medieval inventions that transformed agriculture were too mundane for Petrarch and co.) and even areas where the middle ages outdid antiquity, such as architecture were maligned as &quot;barbaric&quot; (hence the propaganda term &quot;Gothic&quot;). 

The ironic thing is that the very concept of progress seems to be medieval (apparently invented by Joachim of Fiore), as up until then history was described as a constant decline from a past golden age or as going through a series of recurring cycles or at best as static (the &quot;Roma aeterna&quot; idea of the Roman Empire).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While not wishing to defend the nuttiness of Mr. Noonan, the depiction of the middle ages by the propagandists of the renaissance and enlightenment was polemic and often fallacious. For instance, the &#8220;ius primae noctis&#8221; which so often forms part of enlightenment and post-entlightenment discourse on the middle ages had no base in fact. Renaissance polemics against the middle ages structurally actually were a bit like Noonan&#8217;s, only their &#8220;golden age&#8221; was the time of Greeks and Romans with their slave-based economy, at times genocidal wars etc. which at times went a long way to deny their own medieval roots or that there was anything good about the middle ages (maybe something useful like the horse-collar and other medieval inventions that transformed agriculture were too mundane for Petrarch and co.) and even areas where the middle ages outdid antiquity, such as architecture were maligned as &#8220;barbaric&#8221; (hence the propaganda term &#8220;Gothic&#8221;). </p>
<p>The ironic thing is that the very concept of progress seems to be medieval (apparently invented by Joachim of Fiore), as up until then history was described as a constant decline from a past golden age or as going through a series of recurring cycles or at best as static (the &#8220;Roma aeterna&#8221; idea of the Roman Empire).</p>
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		<title>By: R.Porrofatto</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-101941</link>
		<dc:creator>R.Porrofatto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 11:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-101941</guid>
		<description>Forgive me if this is all too well-known, but speaking of civil &lt;i&gt;strife&lt;/i&gt;, Mark Noonan is the author of &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.blogsforbush.com/mt/archives/005615.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/A&gt; little bit of infamy:

&lt;i&gt;The &quot;indictment&quot; of Tom Delay is entirely bogus - from what I&#039;ve read, Tom Delay didn&#039;t know about the perfectly legal transaction he is accused of conspiring to make. We have now left entirely the field of normal political conflict and entered a twilight world where fantasy is presented as fact and the only standard of conduct is &quot;will it work?&quot;. This is not the actions of a political Party engaged in seeking a majority - it is the action of a Party determined to destroy its opponents entirely and seize all power for itself...it is, in short, the stuff from which civil wars are made...&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt;I really do urge our Democrats to step back from the edge - you are sitting in a lake of gasoline and you are playing with fire. We on our side will only put up with so much before we start to pay back with usury what we have received. If you can&#039;t defeat Tom Delay in the electoral field, then you will simply have to accept him as Majority Leader of the United States House of Representatives - and you&#039;d better start accepting political reality before things get really bad.&lt;/i&gt;

The benighted Noonans et al used to be consigned to the darkest corner of the bar along with the pay phone and the wet-naps. Intermittently, sunspots or changes in the earthâ€™s magnetic field would arouse them from hermetic stupor to geyser spouts of nonsense aimed at no one in particular . Now they have the Internet, to our delight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forgive me if this is all too well-known, but speaking of civil <i>strife</i>, Mark Noonan is the author of <a HREF="http://www.blogsforbush.com/mt/archives/005615.html" rel="nofollow">this</a> little bit of infamy:</p>
<p><i>The &#8220;indictment&#8221; of Tom Delay is entirely bogus &#8211; from what I&#8217;ve read, Tom Delay didn&#8217;t know about the perfectly legal transaction he is accused of conspiring to make. We have now left entirely the field of normal political conflict and entered a twilight world where fantasy is presented as fact and the only standard of conduct is &#8220;will it work?&#8221;. This is not the actions of a political Party engaged in seeking a majority &#8211; it is the action of a Party determined to destroy its opponents entirely and seize all power for itself&#8230;it is, in short, the stuff from which civil wars are made&#8230;</i></p>
<p><i>I really do urge our Democrats to step back from the edge &#8211; you are sitting in a lake of gasoline and you are playing with fire. We on our side will only put up with so much before we start to pay back with usury what we have received. If you can&#8217;t defeat Tom Delay in the electoral field, then you will simply have to accept him as Majority Leader of the United States House of Representatives &#8211; and you&#8217;d better start accepting political reality before things get really bad.</i></p>
<p>The benighted Noonans et al used to be consigned to the darkest corner of the bar along with the pay phone and the wet-naps. Intermittently, sunspots or changes in the earthâ€™s magnetic field would arouse them from hermetic stupor to geyser spouts of nonsense aimed at no one in particular . Now they have the Internet, to our delight.</p>
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		<title>By: bronco214</title>
		<link>http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html/comment-page-2#comment-101932</link>
		<dc:creator>bronco214</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 09:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadlyno.com/archives/4448.html#comment-101932</guid>
		<description>Has Peggys&#039; little boy ever even seen a history book, let alone read one?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has Peggys&#8217; little boy ever even seen a history book, let alone read one?</p>
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