Aug
8

Die Vereinigten Staaten von Arabien




Posted at 18:17 by Tintin
Andrew McCarthy, Patriot
ABOVE: Andy McCarthy, Patriot

Another Sunday, another diatribe on America’s Shittiest Website™ from washed-up former U.S. Attorney Andy McCarthy about how Mooslims are just a few mosques away from turning all Dressbarns into Burqabarns. And although the current diatribe starts off with a promisingly amusing reference to Dough-Jo Loadberg’s heft, it rapidly descends into standard issue right-wing bedwetting about how the reason that leftists are willing to put a Koran in every hotel nightstand is that they hate America and how the only way to show true love for our country is to piss all over the First Amendment’s guarantee of freedom of religion.

But as I was reading through Andy’s overheated claptrap, I thought a little experiment — a word substitution game, if you will — might be interesting:

Most of all, Americans are tired of the shroud of political correctness the ruling class has placed around Islam Judaism. We don’t object to anyone’s freedom of conscience, and we abide countless places for Muslims Jews to gather and worship even though we know a very high percentage of the Islamic Jewish centers and mosques synagogues are heavily influenced by Islamists Zionists. But we’re tired of being told things that aren’t true: e.g., that Islam Judaism is peaceful, tolerant and non-threatening; that sharia halakha — which is relentlessly authoritarian, discriminatory, and, in parts, savage — is something we need to accommodate; and that there is no connection between Islamic Jewish doctrine (which is supremacist and belligerent), Islamist Zionist terror, and the broader Islamist Jewish threat to our civilization. We’re tired of being told that people who can’t bring themselves to condemn Hamas Likud are “moderates” deserving of being taken seriously and having their endless grievances against America addressed. And we’re tired of being told that we shouldn’t examine or object to an authoritarian ideology just because it travels under the label of “religion.”

Actually, the whole post reads even better in German. (And how funny is calling Jonah “dass große Kerl”? I think Dough-Jo Loadberg has a new nom de loon: Große Kerlberg.)

206 Comments »

  1. Chris said,

    August 8, 2010 at 18:43

    Thanks for the experiment. Yeah, Muslims really are the Jews of the twenty-first century. But it’s still worth a laugh to read it.

    You know, I’m more worried for the Muslim American community now than I was after 9/11. Bush and McCain were no civil rights champions, but they never sank to the levels I’m seeing now – remember Bush going to the Islamic Center after the attacks to promise that it wouldn’t be a war on Islam, or McCain saying “I’d vote for a Muslim if I agreed with his politics?” Anyone in the post-2008 GOP who’s even that reasonable is going to be tarred, feathered and run out on a rail. My bet is the next GOP leaders will be completely on board the clash-of-civilizations bandwagon – some of the prospective ones, like Gingrich and Palin, have already jumped on. And guess who’s going to pay the price.

  2. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 8, 2010 at 18:46

    Do these people even *know* any Muslims???? Asshats.

  3. S. cerevisiae said,

    August 8, 2010 at 18:47

    Fucking first amendment, how does that work?

  4. Jeff Fecke said,

    August 8, 2010 at 18:55

    It just never occurs to these assholes that progressives support the right of Muslims to worship because, you know, it’s kind of a centerpiece of our nation’s liberties. No, we hate America, and because we hate America, we want Congress to make no laws establishing religion. Stupid liberals.

  5. tigris said,

    August 8, 2010 at 18:56

    “Zionists” for “Islamists” for maximum Stormfrontiness.

  6. ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© said,

    August 8, 2010 at 19:01

    Do these people even *know* any Muslims?

    See for yourself!

    A whole Seattle Slew of ‘em.

    (Mangoes from here.)
    ~

  7. g said,

    August 8, 2010 at 19:13

    Brilliant.

    I can’t stand that little fucker Andrew McCarthy – he’s driven my contempt for the once-decent Los Angeles Times even lower than it once was.

  8. exford legs said,

    August 8, 2010 at 19:16

    In the great 22nd century shit-fight over dwindling resources, the next big struggle will be for water. Demonising the inhabitants of the frozen fresh-water-rich land above the Arctic Circle will require some fantastic slurs. Sand Snow n****s?

  9. El Cid said,

    August 8, 2010 at 19:18

    Burqabarn? Could I get a 1/4 pound Burqa with cheese to go?

  10. Chris said,

    August 8, 2010 at 19:35

    Most of all, Americans are tired of the shroud of political correctness the ruling class has placed around Islam Judaism

    Something that line reminded me of; according to Hannah Arendt, a lot of the antisemitism around the time of World War Two wasn’t people who hated Jews but people who hated “the philosemitism of the liberals,” e.g. that era’s version of political correctness.

    Interesting if true. It would mean a lot of Hitler’s support came not from dedicated racists, but from whining, overgrown babies who voted for him to teach a lesson to those uppity intellectuals who were paying attention to the Jews’ problems instead of just singing Germany’s praises all day. The fact that real people were hurt in the Holocaust probably didn’t even occur to them as long as they were being emotionally satisfied.

  11. roy edroso said,

    August 8, 2010 at 19:42

    … we abide countless places for Muslims to gather and worship even though we know a very high percentage of the Islamic centers and mosques are heavily influenced by Islamists. But we’re tired of being told things that aren’t true: e.g., that Islam is peaceful, tolerant and non-threatening…

    McCarthy makes it sound as if his tolerance of this religion is highly conditional. Also, that he’s America.

    If we start having (as this POV suggests) review boards for approving religious institutions, I look forward to the long line of former altar boys that will show up when it’s the Catholics’ turn.

  12. Rich Lowry said,

    August 8, 2010 at 19:49

    Amazing how this dumb cocksucker equates American citizens who are muslim to “our enemies” and concludes that allowing Americans to worship freely on their own property will be a victory for foreign islamic radicals.

  13. Andy "Andy" McCarthy said,

    August 8, 2010 at 20:02

    I’ll suck your dick for a thousand dollars. Jonah can’t watch, though, or he has to pay an hundred.

  14. Jennifer said,

    August 8, 2010 at 20:07

    What tigris said.

    As in, …even though we know a very high percentage of the Islamic Jewish centers and mosques synagogues are heavily influenced by Islamists Jews Zionists.

  15. Spaghetti Lee said,

    August 8, 2010 at 20:09

    “Die Beschissenste Website aus America” also has a nice ring to it.

  16. Tintin said,

    August 8, 2010 at 20:23

    Post fixed per suggestions of tigris and Jennifer. Thanks!

  17. J— said,

    August 8, 2010 at 20:28

    I am very disappointed with the low level of tolerance for intolerance on display here today.

  18. Bitter Scribe said,

    August 8, 2010 at 20:37

    …a lot of the antisemitism around the time of World War Two wasn’t people who hated Jews but people who hated “the philosemitism of the liberals”…

    That’s often the case. People who hate a racial/ethnic/religious/whatever group often say they oppose “special privileges” or “considerations” for the group, which usually “has it made these days.”

  19. bbbustard said,

    August 8, 2010 at 20:45

    Thank You, Brilliant, And needed to be done. The Right’s need to discount the humanity of the other – be they African Americans or Muslims, is terrifyingly disgusting.

  20. DrDick said,

    August 8, 2010 at 21:08

    Everything McCarthy writes reads like it was badly translated from 1930s era German. Wonder if he has ever heard of Irgun or Aryan Nations?

  21. OTB said,

    August 8, 2010 at 21:18

    Actually, Tintin, that’s precisely what they *are* saying; all the fake Israel-love the neocon scum espouse is opportunistic ass-kissing because they equate Israel with Military Power, that’s all. They still hate the fucking Jews, every goddamned single one of them, including that lace-curtain mick douchebag Andy McCarthy.

  22. Blinking Emoticon said,

    August 8, 2010 at 21:26

    Okay, I don’t have lace curtains so that didn’t offend me.

  23. DAS said,

    August 8, 2010 at 21:35

    Given how easily this substitution can be made, I continue to wonder how any of my fellow Jews, no matter how they feel about the Israeli-Arab conflict, can feel in any way comfortable with the anti-Islamic rhetoric from the right. They spout this claptrap that is just a few word-changes away from being virulently anti-Jewish and they would call a liberal Jew like me self-hating?

    OTOH, it doesn’t all quite work:

    and that there is no connection between Jewish doctrine (which is supremacist and belligerent), Zionist terror, and the broader Islamist Jewish threat to our civilization. We’re tired of being told that people who can’t bring themselves to condemn Likud are “moderates” deserving of being taken seriously and having their endless grievances against America addressed

    Actually it is anti-Zionists (when they are at least attempting not to be anti-Semitic) who claim there is no connection between Jewish doctrine (which anti-Zionists of the left-wing type would claim to be supremicist and belligerent — but they aren’t being anti-Semitic, they hate religion in all forms!) and Zionism and it’s the Likuniks and their ilk who seek to confuse their particular brand of “Zionism” (which actually would not be recognizable to Herzl) with Judaism (and the Satmarer Hasids would be surprised to learn that Jews must be Zionists). Moreover, many of us liberal Jewish types, even those who are Zionists, constantly denounce Likud and their brand of Zionism. Actually the righties are not wrong in that if “moderate Islamists” would be as antipathic (and not just in public — amongst themselves!) to their extremists as we are to ours, it would go along way toward them establishing their moderate bonafides!

  24. Zebbidie said,

    August 8, 2010 at 21:42

    I have lace knickers on though so that just excited me.

  25. Mr. Wonderful said,

    August 8, 2010 at 21:45

    I also like McCarthy’s sneer at “the ruling class.” There is literally nothing these douchbags will not say.

  26. mycroft said,

    August 8, 2010 at 21:45

    Speaking as a lapsed Episcopalian (with Presbyterian roots on my mother’s mother’s side no less!) I know what it’s like against which to be discriminated. Makes my blood run cold to think of how risky life is for us.

  27. Butch Pansy said,

    August 8, 2010 at 21:47

    ~And we’re tired of being told that we shouldn’t examine or object to an authoritarian ideology just because it travels under the label of “religion.”~

    As a patriotic, red-blooded, left-handed, radically leftist, atheist, gay American member of the intellectual elite I say: my sentiments exactly.

  28. DrDick said,

    August 8, 2010 at 21:52

    And we’re tired of being told that we shouldn’t examine or object to an authoritarian ideology just because it travels under the label of “religion.”

    Exactly what I have been saying about the Christian Fundamentalists, evangelicals, forced birthers, Catholics, and Mormons for decades.

  29. M. Bouffant said,

    August 8, 2010 at 22:02

    I also like McCarthy’s sneer at “the ruling class.” There is literally nothing these douchbags will not say.

    Indeed there ain’t. Th’ Murkin Speculator has been polishing the “Ruling Class” turd recently, apparently because of Codevilla’s bloviation. (Because that wasn’t an election close to two yrs. ago, it was a coronation.)

    In opposition to the “Ruling Class”: The “Country Class” &/or the “Country Party.”

    The Country Class or the Country Party has come down against the mosque, and it goes far beyond New Yorkers. It embraces Americans from all over. They oppose the mosque and their opposition is growing. On the other side, the Ruling Class’s spokesman is not surprisingly Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg of New York, though he could be from Chicago or Boston or Washington, D.C.

  30. Sirius Lunacy said,

    August 8, 2010 at 22:04

    Well, Burqabarn has a much nicer ring to it than Dressbarn. I’m worried however that the Sports Illustrated swim suit issue will just not be the same.

  31. Bilo said,

    August 8, 2010 at 22:05

    I, too, am concerned about religions that are relentlessly authoritarian, discriminatory, and, in parts, savage, which is why no more Southern Baptist churches should be allowed in Manhattan. I’ve heard they’re evangelical fanatics with a track record of approving of violence being used around the world to further their goals. Also, they’re upset about rock music and dancing.

    In their defense, I don’t think they’ve tried to ban kites.

  32. Bilo said,

    August 8, 2010 at 22:06

    They say “ruling class”, and it’s okay. We say it and we’re engaging in class war and the politics of envy.

  33. Sirius Lunacy said,

    August 8, 2010 at 22:12

    They say “ruling class”, and it’s okay. We say it and we’re engaging in class war and the politics of envy.

    The difference is, since they have no class, they are unable to engage in class warfare.

  34. Smut Clyde said,

    August 8, 2010 at 22:12

    Who can blame these people for believing that if other religions are allowed to set up places of worship, they will aspire to seize power and impose their theocracy upon everyone else?

  35. DrDick said,

    August 8, 2010 at 22:25

    Who can blame these people for believing that if other religions are allowed to set up places of worship, they will aspire to seize power and impose their theocracy upon everyone else?

    They are simply afraid of the competition.

  36. justme said,

    August 8, 2010 at 22:33

    Smut ftw.

    Again.

  37. g said,

    August 8, 2010 at 22:43

    In opposition to the “Ruling Class”: The “Country Class” &/or the “Country Party.”

    Oh, sure. And the “Non-Ruling Class” is made up of simple, down-home country folk like New Gingrich and Liz Cheney.

  38. tigris said,

    August 8, 2010 at 23:00

    And the “Non-Ruling Class” is made up of simple, down-home country folk like New Gingrich and Liz Cheney.

    Plus Sarah Palin, several former Reagan, Bush I and Bush II advisors and cabinet members, Republican congressman Peter King, Republicans currently running for office in NY… so sure, people who have held, do hold, or are running to hold power might be considered “ruling class” by some folks, if they’re DEMOCRATS or something, but obviously a Republican doing the same is different; a “puling ass” would be my guess.

  39. The Kid from Kounty Meath said,

    August 8, 2010 at 23:02

    I think King, as an unrepentant IRA-fucker, is probably the most hilarious of the anti-mosque crowd.*

    *They need a name. Maybe “Cordon’t-ba House”?

  40. Spaghetti Lee said,

    August 8, 2010 at 23:03

    From Teh Wiki on Andypants:

    McCarthy was educated at Columbia University and New York Law School, and has served as a professor at the latter and at Fordham University Law School.

    Sounds like the Country Class might have an infiltrator.

  41. stryx said,

    August 8, 2010 at 23:06

    Most of all, Americans are tired of the shroud of political correctness the ruling class has placed around Islam Catholicism. We don’t object to anyone’s freedom of conscience, and we abide countless places for Muslims Catholics to gather and worship even though we know a very high percentage of the Islamic Catholic centers and churches are heavily influenced by Islamists Papists

    Fixxored 4 greater bigotry

  42. The Kid from Kounty Meath said,

    August 8, 2010 at 23:06

    Also, given how many Muslims have been detained/tortured for sharing a really common Islamic last name with a terrorist, why don’t we investigate whether or not McCarthy is related to that liberal pussy Eugene? You know, since the wingnuts love getting re-pissed about the sixties almost as much as they love fapping to the idea of a Moozlum final solution.

  43. Bill the Butcher said,

    August 8, 2010 at 23:07

    Has styx a news-letter?

  44. Bill the Butcher said,

    August 8, 2010 at 23:08

    *stryx. A fucking plague upon WordPress, the bounder.

  45. Chris said,

    August 8, 2010 at 23:18

    Given how easily this substitution can be made, I continue to wonder how any of my fellow Jews, no matter how they feel about the Israeli-Arab conflict, can feel in any way comfortable with the anti-Islamic rhetoric from the right. They spout this claptrap that is just a few word-changes away from being virulently anti-Jewish and they would call a liberal Jew like me self-hating?

    I don’t think they do feel comfortable with it. Jews in the U.S. continue to vote Democratic by a very large majority. That doesn’t mean they don’t share the anti-Islamic prejudice in many cases, but when it comes from the Christian Right, it scares them because they’re afraid it might be turned against them (again) someday.

  46. The Kid from Kounty Meath said,

    August 8, 2010 at 23:23

    I think a great many of them are smart enough to know that hardcore Christian Zionism is borne of a desire to have all the hebes in one place so Aryan Jesus can kill them quicker. (Case in point, I learned the above via Al Franken.)

  47. noen said,

    August 8, 2010 at 23:55

    “I continue to wonder how any of my fellow Jews, no matter how they feel about the Israeli-Arab conflict, can feel in any way comfortable with the anti-Islamic rhetoric from the right.”

    Because Israel really does face an existential threat and really has suffered sustained terrorist violence on a level that we can scarcely imagine in the US. Yes, they are guilty too, yes, Zionism and religious fervor are a part of the problem too. But if Canadians were driving across the border and blowing up bus loads of school children here in Minn I think I’d re-think my politics real fast.

    The feeling that your nation, your people, your religion are under constant attack and could be exterminated (and was attempted in recent history) if you don’t do something is enough to drive many people crazy. So you might very well be willing to make an alliance with the Christian right, knowing full well how crazy they are, because at least they will support you and keep sending the guns and bullets you need to survive.

    I still think it’s a mistake though, but it’s easy to see why people go there.

  48. Jymn said,

    August 8, 2010 at 23:58

    noen wrote: “The feeling that your nation, your people, your religion are under constant attack and could be exterminated (and was attempted in recent history) if you don’t do something is enough to drive many people crazy.”

    Per Tintin – this could be said about Muslims, too.

  49. Jymn said,

    August 9, 2010 at 0:00

    I love how McFartle begin her treatise with the usual “I’m no prude…BUT” bit so loved by prudes and hypocrites, especially of the right stripe.

  50. Chris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 0:03

    Great summary of the Israeli mindset.

    Also, the fundies don’t plan to kill all the Jews themselves, all they want to do is keep them in one place until the apocalypse. Well, from an Israeli point of view, that’s the deal of the millennium. They get unconditional support and a steady supply of arms no matter what they do, and all they have to do in exchange is sit tight and wait for a mystical event that they know is never going to happen.

    There’s really no downside.

  51. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 0:13

    Yes, they are guilty too, yes, Zionism and religious fervor are a part of the problem too.

    Given that Israel was born of terrorism (they invented the car bomb and killed hunreds of British and Palestinian civilians) and that every Israeli prime minister at least up through Golda Mier was a former member of Irgun, an officially designated terrorist organization, no Israeli has any right to object or complain about Palestinian terrorism. Ever.

  52. J— said,

    August 9, 2010 at 0:21

    they invented the car bomb

    No, they didn’t.

    …no Israeli has any right to object or complain about Palestinian terrorism. Ever.

    Wow, sins of the father and all that.

  53. tigris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 0:25

    Per Tintin – this could be said about Muslims, too.

    But not American Christians, though you’d never guess that from their behavior.

  54. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 0:37

    hey invented the car bomb

    No, they didn’t.

    …no Israeli has any right to object or complain about Palestinian terrorism. Ever.

    Wow, sins of the father and all that.

    Irgun or the Stern Gang are often attributed with inventing it, but it would appear that there may be other claimants to the title. They were among the first groups to employ it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun).

    It is not merely the sins of the father, but also the sins of the Likudniks. What Israel has been doing in Gaza and the West Bank is nothing more than state sponsored terrorism. They are not alone in this, the fire bombings of Dresden and Tokyo, as well as the atomic bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were also state terrorism. As Tintin says, the Palestinians have every bit as much right to feel threatened and persecuted.

    I do not approve of terrorist tactics, though I understand why they are used, and abhor the random violence on both sides, but hate even more the hypocrisy and self-righteousness of the Israeli government and the radical Zionists in this regard (this does not apply to all Israelis, as many also oppose these policies).

  55. Chris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 0:40

    But not American Christians, though you’d never guess that from their behavior.

    I hate that they’re just as destructive as the Zionists/Islamists, but they don’t have the balls to do the destruction themselves – instead they finance poorer Christians in Lebanon, Uganda, South America to go out and cleanse the gays, the Muslims, the “liberation theology.”

    Which means they get to stay at home and talk about how peaceful and loving and completely unterroristic they are, when all the time they’re financing shit like this (http://gay.americablog.com/2010/06/uganda-bishop-blamed-us-christian.html).

  56. J— said,

    August 9, 2010 at 0:42

    (this does not apply to all Israelis, as many also oppose these policies)

    no Israeli has any right to object or complain about Palestinian terrorism. Ever.

  57. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 0:44

    I hate that they’re just as destructive as the Zionists/Islamists, but they don’t have the balls to do the destruction themselves

    Not all of them. Have you forgotten the Christian Identity Movement (groups like Aryan Nations) or the radical anti-abortionists? They have committed more terrorist acts, killed more people, and done more damage in the US than anyone else (OKC anyone?).

  58. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 0:49

    J-
    Those Israelis are not personally guilty of terrorism, nor of the hypocrisy and self-righteousness, but they still are the beneficiaries of past terrorism and have a responsibility for current the actions of their government (as do we for the clusterfucks in Iraq and Afghanistan). If and when Israel ceases to employ terrorism as a tool of state, I may reconsider my prior statement.

  59. Smut Clyde said,

    August 9, 2010 at 0:52

    Do any of these clowns set out what it is they want The Authoriteez to do, nationally or at the level of a borough in NYC, to override the right of some property owners to do what they want with their building?

    Question only partly rhetorical. I hate to unfairly accuse Andy McCarthy et al. of beating up an issue which they do not personally care about in the hope of increasing a general level of free-floating resentment and victimhood.

    the shroud of political correctness the ruling class has placed around Islam
    “Shroud” is a strange choice of word here — if he wanted to convey a sense of protection and concealment, he needs a word like ‘cloak’. Why is Andy’s mind dwelling on images of death and burial? It is a mystery, but I’m guessing that in his next column he will move on to complaining about the “pointed white hood of political correctness”.

  60. Chris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 1:00

    Do any of these clowns set out what it is they want The Authoriteez to do, nationally or at the level of a borough in NYC, to override the right of some property owners to do what they want with their building?

    I think once you’ve agreed that Muslims should be stripped of their civil rights (which they basically have), then it’s understood that they’re fair game for anyone; “who” and “how” doesn’t really matter.

    There’s a Republican running in New York who’s promised to use eminent domain to destroy the mosque if he’s elected. But if that doesn’t work out somehow, I’m sure there’s a few good old boys who wouldn’t mind slashing tires, vandalizing buildings, or whatever until the good imam gets the message. Or maybe they’ll just wait until Gingrich/Palin are elected and let the big federal government do it for them.

  61. Spaghetti Lee said,

    August 9, 2010 at 1:30

    no Israeli has any right to object or complain about Palestinian terrorism. Ever.

    Look, enough of this bullshit. Israel’s a country of 7.5 million people, many of them children, many of whom don’t even remember the six day war. They’re people trying to live their lives, not cogs in some vast pro-terrorism conspiracy, just like people in the US or Pakistan or whoever’s foreign policy you can criticize to high heaven. It pisses me off how so many liberals will decry any violence or human rights violation except for Israelis, where it turns into “Let them burn.” So they’re not innocent. Fuck, no one is innocent. They “invented the car bomb?” Yeah, I’m sure all 7 million of them were gathered around the patent office giving advice. Douche.

  62. Smut Clyde said,

    August 9, 2010 at 1:47

    Or maybe they’ll just wait until Gingrich/Palin are elected and let the big federal government do it for them.

    Ah, I see. They want Big Federal Gubblement to stop thrusting health care down their throats and meddling in States’ internal affairs, and restrict itself to its proper role of imposing religious persecution on New York.

  63. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 1:52

    It pisses me off how so many liberals will decry any violence or human rights violation except for Israelis, where it turns into “Let them burn.”

    At no point did I say, “let them burn,” or that they deserve it. In fact I specifically said that I abhor all of the random violence by both sides. I am a long time supporter of the state of Israel. I supported them in 1968 and again in 1973, but since then I have become increasingly appalled by the policies and actions of the Israeli government.

    The fact remains, however, that until the Israelis dismantle all of the settlements in the West Bank and abandon terrorism against the Palestinians as a tool of state, they are guilty of perpetuating this cycle of violence and have committed more carnage and killing of innocents than the Palestinians. It is indeed the Israeli government rather than all of the Israeli population which is committing the atrocities, but the majority of the Israeli people keeping electing these barbarians. Yes, the Palestinians have a responsibility, but it is absurd to ask the grossly weaker party (and terrorism is typically a tool of the weak) to unilaterally disarm without substantial displays of good faith on the part of the Israelis. The current government is aggressively pursuing policies which can only make this conflict worse and increase the sufferings of innocents on both sides.

    I do not hear your condemnation of Israeli atrocities and war crimes. They are currently engaged in genocide every bit as much as the Serbians were in Bosnia. People wonder why the Palestinians think that terrorism is an appropriate and potentially successful strategy for establishing their state? Because they have the example of Israel.

  64. lobbey said,

    August 9, 2010 at 1:54

    In their defense, I don’t think they’ve tried to ban kites.

    Only on a Sunday, but its a slippery slope…..

  65. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 1:57

    no Israeli has any right to object or complain about Palestinian terrorism. Ever.

    So, would you say the same thing about Americans, too?

    And I’ve benefited from systemic racism and the dominance of POC. Do I have the right to complain if they kill someone like me because I’ve benefited from shit people who looked like me did to them?

    I’m (generally) a pacifist, but I also understand why terrorists do what they do, and can’t say that I wouldn’t do the same thing if I was pushed hard enough. But I can’t stand by your statement.

  66. Esteev said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:01

    From J—’s link

    “Why create pain in the name of religion?”

    Wait, there’s a point to religion besides having an excuse to hate on a different group of people? Hmm, that’s interesting.

  67. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:02

    The fact remains, however, that until the Israelis dismantle all of the settlements in the West Bank and abandon terrorism against the Palestinians as a tool of state, they are guilty of perpetuating this cycle of violence and have committed more carnage and killing of innocents than the Palestinians. It is indeed the Israeli government rather than all of the Israeli population which is committing the atrocities, but the majority of the Israeli people keeping electing these barbarians. Yes, the Palestinians have a responsibility, but it is absurd to ask the grossly weaker party (and terrorism is typically a tool of the weak) to unilaterally disarm without substantial displays of good faith on the part of the Israelis.

    Okay, I couldn’t agree with you more on that. Unfortunately, innocent people still get caught in the crossfire, and I *do* think that they have the right to be upset about terrorism. It’s sort of like saying (in seriousness), that we should force red states to secede because everybody who lives in them is a rightwing asshole. Not only does that condemn a large swath of people who don’t deserve it, but it also completely overlooks the good works that non-rightwing assholes are doing to try to make their states better places to live.

  68. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:04

    Also, Imma gonna apologize for the comparison I made…I know it was sloppy, but I’m hoping you caught my drift.

  69. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:10

    So, would you say the same thing about Americans, too?

    About Iraqi or Afghan terrorists attacking US targets? Yes. Was the 9/11 attack justified? I don’t think so, but it was understandable and potentially justifiable (though I would challenge that justification).

    I will admit that the statement is perhaps a bit extreme, but I tend to get really pissed off about the infinite justifications and lack of outrage over the current Israeli genocide against the Palestinians. Yes, Hamas are assholes and Hezbollah are capable of heinous acts of violence, but the scale of violence they are capable of pales by comparison to what Israel routinely deploys against the Palestinians. The latter have not leveled entire neighborhoods in densely packed cities nor dropped cluster bombs on civilian targets. When the Israelis abandon these policies and destroy all of the illegal settlements in the West Bank and elsewhere, then they can lay some claim to special victimhood.

  70. lobbey said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:14

    It pisses me off how so many liberals will decry any violence or human rights violation except for Israelis, where it turns into “Let them burn.”

    I dont think anyone here actually said that, but there sometimes is a very blurry line when I read some comments about Palestine/Israel. However, the boot is on the much bigger foot, when even a mild criticism of Israel gets every fucker screaming anti-semitism. The overton window on this conflict has shifted a lot in the last 10 years (I think kind of in line with the BoP ibn Isreal itself). For example, out and out Israeli bigots & racists like Avigdor Lieberman are now part of the government, rather than shouting from the sidelines.

    . Why is Andy’s mind dwelling on images of death and burial?

    Honestly, you want to delve into Andy’s mind, with all that entails. He probably has dreams of sparkleponies and fairies being blown up by landmines and/or Jonah and K-Lo in a kinky threesome (J-Lo obviously dressed as a nun)!

  71. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:19

    Honestly, you want to delve into Andy’s mind, with all that entails.

    Presuming that it has any more reality than unicorns and leprechauns (a so far undemonstrated assumption), Fuck no! That way lies madness, like gazing upon the visage of Cthulhu.

  72. Pupienus Maximus said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:20

    OT, the day turned out pretty well after all. We had an excellent ride.

  73. tigris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:21

    Wait, there’s a point to religion besides having an excuse to hate on a different group of people?

    There’s also wealth-building and power-consolidating.

  74. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:22

    I will admit that the statement is perhaps a bit extreme, but I tend to get really pissed off about the infinite justifications and lack of outrage over the current Israeli genocide against the Palestinians.

    Okay, I think we’re actually in agreement here. And I have the tendency to get a little hyperbolic when I’m pissed, not only about the topic itself, but also about how the dominant viewpoint lacks sufficient nuance.

  75. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:23

    He probably has dreams of sparkleponies and fairies being blown up by landmines and/or Jonah and K-Lo in a kinky threesome (J-Lo obviously dressed as a nun)!

    Why do I smell toast?

  76. lobbey said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:23

    Yes, Hamas are assholes and Hezbollah are capable of heinous acts of violence, but the scale of violence they are capable of pales by comparison to what Israel routinely deploys against the Palestinians.

    So it comes down to the level of violence that they can inflict…… I’m sure if Hamas has the firepower they would have used it.

    However, peace tends to come when the stronger of the two groups realizes that blowing the fuck out of the weaker group tends not to work in the long run, eg. South Africa, Northern Ireland… Israel, IMHO, has not reached that point yet, but a growing number of Israeli’s (including some Likud tossers) are beginning to appreciate that.

  77. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:23

    how the dominant viewpoint lacks sufficient nuance

    How about any nuance?

  78. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:24

    How about any nuance?

    That, too. I was trying to be nice. :)

  79. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:24

    There’s also wealth-building and power-consolidating.

    Mostly about that in fact.

  80. lobbey said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:25

    Why do I smell toast?

    Odor association, I knew that would turn you on..

  81. Chris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:25

    Yes, the Palestinians have a responsibility, but it is absurd to ask the grossly weaker party (and terrorism is typically a tool of the weak) to unilaterally disarm without substantial displays of good faith on the part of the Israelis.

    That’s one thing. The other; it’s commonly accepted that the people who start the war are the ones who bear the ultimate responsibility for it. In this case, that sure as hell wasn’t the Arabs – it was the Zionists, via acts of terrorism that go back pretty early into the twentieth century.

    Crossing the sea, landing in a part of the world you haven’t seen for two thousand years, demanding that the locals give it up, terrorizing them for decades when they say “no,” and, when you’re finally given a country (by colonial fiat with no input from the locals), spending the next sixty years expanding your borders at their expense constitutes unchecked aggression by every definition I know.

  82. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:26

    So it comes down to the level of violence that they can inflict……

    Only indirectly. It is about power and the more powerful group in any conflict of this sort, where both sides are engaged in atrocities, bears the greater burden to solve the problems.

  83. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:29

    Crossing the sea, landing in a part of the world you haven’t seen for two thousand years, demanding that the locals give it up, terrorizing them for decades when they say “no,” and, when you’re finally given a country (by colonial fiat with no input from the locals), spending the next sixty years expanding your borders at their expense constitutes unchecked aggression by every definition I know.

    The ultimate bitter irony here is that the best available evidence (historical, genetic, etc.) indicates that the vast majority of Palestinians are descended from Hebrews who converted to Christianity and/or later Islam.

  84. Chris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:30

    Yes, Hamas are assholes and Hezbollah are capable of heinous acts of violence, but the scale of violence they are capable of pales by comparison to what Israel routinely deploys against the Palestinians.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_war#Casualties

    Total number of dead: 1385 Palestinians, 13 Israelis.
    Total number of civilian dead: 1010 Palestinians, 3 Israelis.

    Like I posted at the time of the conflict… to compare Palestinian terrorism with Israeli war crimes is like comparing the Rodney King riots to four hundred years of slavery. The two aren’t even in the same ballpark.

  85. Chris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:33

    The ultimate bitter irony here is that the best available evidence (historical, genetic, etc.) indicates that the vast majority of Palestinians are descended from Hebrews who converted to Christianity and/or later Islam.

    That, I did not know. I thought most of them were Arabs who’d come after the conquest circa 630AD? Probably a mix of both, that’s how it usually goes.

    (Of course, Jews and Arabs are nearly identical “genetically,” one of many reasons why Arab-haters who call their enemies “antisemites” are so humorously ill-informed).

  86. The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:39

    (Of course, Jews and Arabs are nearly identical “genetically,” one of many reasons why Arab-haters who call their enemies “antisemites” are so humorously ill-informed).

    People can’t be Semitic, anyway. Only languages can be Semitic. Which Arabic is, as is Hebrew—but Arabic didn’t have to be “revived” after being a dead language for 2500 years.

  87. Esteev said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:41

    There’s also wealth-building and power-consolidating.

    Fear is a helluva drug.

  88. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:41

    I thought most of them were Arabs who’d come after the conquest circa 630AD? Probably a mix of both, that’s how it usually goes.

    While the origin of the Palestinians are complex and heterogeneous, relatively few are from Arabs who immigrated after the Jihad (the historical record does not support large scale immigration). This is mostly Zionist propaganda intended to delegitimize Palestinian claims. There were at least as many descendants of Romans (from all over the Empire), Byzantine Greeks, European Crusaders, even vikings, and merchants from all over. There is a widespread myth that all or most of the Jews were expelled from Palestine in the first century AD, but (according to an Israeli historian among others) the evidence only shows up to 10,000 out of a population of 2-3 million were actually expelled. The majority of the Palestinian population was Hebrew up to and after the Arab conquest.

  89. AJB said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:45

    http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ds10.htm

  90. lobbey said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:52

    Before the thread dissolves into DKW’s mum or T&U’s tits (as the ‘Sadly No law of snark’ dictates), I’ll try and stay on topic for a second. This bs from McCarthy is actually getting quite scary and it does make you wonder if this type of shit can be said out loud by potential presidential candidates, what is actually being said in private.

    Or alternatively, if Jonah sounds reasonable, is it the sign of end times?

  91. lobbey said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:57

    (Of course, Jews and Arabs are nearly identical “genetically,” one of many reasons why Arab-haters who call their enemies “antisemites” are so humorously ill-informed).

    but, but, thats antisemtic for you to say that……..

  92. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 2:57

    Or alternatively, if Jonah sounds reasonable, is it the sign of end times?

    Yes.

    McCarthy is a protofascist, like far too many on the right, and the mainstreaming of this kind of rhetoric is really scary. Check out Dave Neiwert’s work on rightwing extremism and its mainstreaming by movement conservatives over the past couple of decades (especially his new book with John Amato, Over the Cliff)

  93. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:07

    Only languages can be Semitic. Which Arabic is, as is Hebrew

    And both are also Afro-Asiatic, as are Berber, Egyptian, Somali, and Hausa.

  94. Angry Geometer said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:07

    We don’t object to anyone’s freedom of conscience, and we abide countless places for hipsters in ironic T-shirts to gather and worship even though we know a very high percentage of the hipster bars and coffee shops are heavily influenced by Pitchfork Media. But we’re tired of being told things that aren’t true: e.g., that hipsters in ironic T-shirts are peaceful, tolerant and non-threatening; that the cult of cool — which is relentlessly authoritarian, discriminatory, and, in parts, savage — is something we need to accommodate; and that there is no connection between hipster rock criticism (which is supremacist and belligerent), the proliferation of shitty dance-punk bands, and the broader self-referential ironic threat to our civilization.

  95. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:15

    So where are DKW’s mum and T&U’s tits ?

  96. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:17

    Why do I smell toast?

    Odor association, I knew that would turn you on..

    Okay, look, I try not to be judgmental about people’s sexual proclivities, but if that ever is actually true, I want you to put me out of my misery.

  97. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:19

    McCarthy is a protofascist, like far too many on the right, and the mainstreaming of this kind of rhetoric is really scary.

    I agree. It makes me worry for my Muslim friends. Oh, and my latin@ friends, too. So, basically, I’m concerned for anybody brown and this point…

  98. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:22

    So where are DKW’s mum

    I think it’s actor’s weekend…

    and T&U’s tits ?

    Last time I checked (about 10 seconds ago), they’re right where they should be.

  99. Looch said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:22

    What always strikes me about people like McCarthy is the utter and complete unwillingness to take into account the possibility that given the right (or wrong, if you will) circumstances and environment, they, too, could become as depraved and wanton as the worst of the Nazis (or anyone else they demonize). And, as a corollary, it seems that few of these douchebags have any sense of personal responsibility as to how they may be contributing to an environment that accepts what is essentially the banality of evil.

    I mean, the _________ (your choice) are not (or were not) inherently evil. They did not have an “evil” gene. They were people dealing with the daily rigors of life who allowed their humanity to slip a way, bit by bit.

    McCarthy and his cohorts seem intent on speeding that process.

  100. N__B said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:22

    Do any of these clowns set out what it is they want The Authoriteez to do, nationally or at the level of a borough in NYC, to override the right of some property owners to do what they want with their building?

    Speaking as someone with almost twenty-five years of experience dealing with the NYC Department of Buildings, I might laugh myself to death if some douche decides to use the DoB as a tool to enforce prejudice through plan examination. “The list of objections includes lack of a variance for the roof deck, inadequate documentation of energy code compliance, and allowing those people to congregate without a certificate of occupancy listing place of heathen assembly.”

  101. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:23

    Angry Geometer said,
    August 9, 2010 at 3:07

    I lolded.

    Also, too, is anyone at Pitchfork over the age of 22? I’m always floored by how, well, FUCKING IGNORANT they are.

  102. N__B said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:25

    and T&U’s tits ?

    Last time I checked (about 10 seconds ago), they’re right where they should be.

    I imagine they drift slower when grazing.

  103. Looch said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:25

    And.

    American “exceptionalism” ain’t gonna help this at all.

  104. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:26

    I mean, the _________ (your choice) are not (or were not) inherently evil. They did not have an “evil” gene. They were people dealing with the daily rigors of life who allowed their humanity to slip a way, bit by bit.

    Yup. That’s what’s fucking scary about Americans in general, I think. It’s like we think we’re extra superduper special and could never ever do anything that horrible. Which is why I get annoyed that the “lesson” people try to teach to kids about the Holocaust is that we should be tolerant of other people. Yeah, I mean, that’s true, but more importantly, it’s that normal fucking people do evil fucking things.

  105. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:27

    American “exceptionalism” ain’t gonna help this at all.

    Well, you could put it that way, but I prefer to say that we think we’re extra superduper special.

  106. N__B said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:27

    American’s aren’t spoiled; we just smell that way.

  107. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:31

    American’s aren’t spoiled; we just smell that way.

    Hey! It was 92 degrees with 80% humidity today and I’ve been running errands all day. I’m going to take a shower!

  108. Looch said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:32

    but I prefer to say that we think we’re extra superduper special.

    And we have Sparkleponies_________(fill in your personal fave).

  109. Looch said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:35

    It’s kinda like:

    “Oh, we Americans would never do something like that!”

    “Oh, yes you would. And you have already.”

    “SHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUP!”

  110. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:36

    Sparklerobots?

  111. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:38

    Exactly. I think it’s more appropriate to say, “Hey, people find all sorts of ways to justify all sorts of evil shit and you need to be aware of that in your own life…”

    But then we’d have to start examining not only our history of colonialism, but the immorality of our everyday lives…like, you know, “I have to have a car that gets ten miles to the gallon to keep my kid safe!”

  112. M. Bouffant said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:39

    Hey, good take on McCarthy from someone at PuffHo.

  113. The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:41

    DrDick said,
    August 9, 2010 at 3:07

    Only languages can be Semitic. Which Arabic is, as is Hebrew

    And both are also Afro-Asiatic, as are Berber, Egyptian, Somali, and Hausa.

    Exactly. Of course, back when I was learning this stuff, the family was called “Hamito-Semitic”, as if the Egyptian, Berber, Cushitic, and Omotic branches had something in common that distinguished them on the one hand from the Semitic branch on the other. (They don’t).

  114. mycroft said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:53

    But then we’d have to start examining not only our history of colonialism, but the immorality of our everyday lives…like, you know, “I have to have a car that gets ten miles to the gallon to keep my kid safe!”

    I like Louis CK’s standup bit about this, where he talks about how he sometimes realizes that by virtue of driving an Infiniti rather than selling it, buying a reasonable car, and using the excess cash to do some good in the world he is expressly and deliberately allowing people to starve. As with all of his standup, it’s heartbreaking and uncomfortably hilarious. It starts around the 2:40 mark here if anyone is interested http://videogum.com/196791/all-the-stand-up-from-last-nights-premiere-of-louie/tv/new-tv-shows/

  115. Angry Geometer said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:53

    I agree. It makes me worry for my Muslim friends. Oh, and my latin@ friends, too. So, basically, I’m concerned for anybody brown and this point…

    Filipinos are Catholic, so they might come out OK.

  116. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 3:55

    Filipinos are Catholic, so they might come out OK.

    The only Filipina I know well is a lesbian, so maybe not…

  117. Chris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 4:08

    Filipinos are Catholic, so they might come out OK.

    Depends.

    Have you ever tried being Catholic in fundie company? Their leaders make nice to us in public because we’re like, a quarter of the population and they need our votes and our help on the social conservatism thing. But in the privacy of their own churches, phew…

  118. Hysterical Woman said,

    August 9, 2010 at 4:10

    What do people hear think of the theory that the Jews are actually the descendants of the Khazar, a Turkic people? It’s probably not true, but we Jews probably are descended from a good deal of converts.

    (In one article I read about it, the author claimed the Jews claimed to be part of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. Umm, no, we’re from the Two Not-Lost Tribes of Israel, though Wikipedia tells me which ones they were is unsure.)

  119. Chris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 4:11

    Check out Dave Neiwert’s work on rightwing extremism and its mainstreaming by movement conservatives over the past couple of decades (especially his new book with John Amato, Over the Cliff)

    I’m reading the first few pages on Amazon right now. It opens up with a summary of the hate crimes that happened on election and inauguration nights. Holy fuck… I knew death threats had gone up (several hundred percent), but I had no idea how much crap had actually been carried out. And they say the media’s overplaying anti-Obama racism. Right.

  120. Bitter Scribe said,

    August 9, 2010 at 4:12

    mycroft, that video is pretty funny. Bleak, but funny.

  121. mycroft said,

    August 9, 2010 at 4:13

    mycroft, that video is pretty funny. Bleak, but funny.

    Indeed. Like Herman Melville doing standup.

  122. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 4:39

    So, basically, I’m concerned for anybody brown and this point…

    Which would include my son (half Cherokee), his wife (half Mexican), his kids (1/4 Cherokee), and his step kids (1/4 Mexican and I do not care what else – they are nice kids).

  123. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 4:45

    given the right (or wrong, if you will) circumstances and environment, they, too, could become as depraved and wanton as the worst of the Nazis

    A point I make to my Intro to Anthro class about the importance of cultural relativism in studying other culture. All reasonable people abhor the Holocaust and other genocides and it is all too easy to simply say that those who did this are simply monsters (and therefor incomprehensible). Sadly, most of the people who enabled the Holocaust (or the Rwandan or any other genocide) were normal, decent people just like the rest of us and we need to understand how you turn decent people into monsters.

  124. 77south said,

    August 9, 2010 at 4:47

    we need to understand how you turn decent people into monsters.I would say the far more urgent question is how do we prevent this.

  125. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 4:48

    What do people hear think of the theory that the Jews are actually the descendants of the Khazar, a Turkic people? It’s probably not true, but we Jews probably are descended from a good deal of converts.

    That one has been pretty well debunked and only applied to the Ashkenazim. The genetic evidence clearly indicates a strong majority Semitic base for them and other diasporic Jews, but with substantial admixture from the surrounding local population.

  126. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 4:49

    Filipinos are Catholic, so they might come out OK.

    Not all. Most southern Filipinos are Muslim and many others are animist.

  127. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 4:50

    I would say the far more urgent question is how do we prevent this.

    The key to preventing it is to understand what causes it and that is the basis for my statement.

  128. wiley said,

    August 9, 2010 at 4:52

    Learning to recognize sociopathy and psychopathy is, imho, what the human race most desperately needs to do to survive. At least stop electing the bastards.

  129. Darth Revan said,

    August 9, 2010 at 4:53

    What do people hear think of the theory that the Jews are actually the descendants of the Khazar, a Turkic people? It’s probably not true, but we Jews probably are descended from a good deal of converts.

    You know, I’d like to be considered part-Turkic. I have a high respect for Turkic cultures after visiting Kazakhstan for a couple of months – my host family were wonderful people, very laid-back, very hospitable (though my host dad smoked like a chimney). But no, I think that hypothesis has been pretty thoroughly busted.

    http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetics.org/GeneWatch/GeneWatchPage.aspx?pageId=263

    Also, Dave Neiwert is the man – responsible independent journalism as it ought to be.

  130. Chris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 4:58

    I’m gone for tonight, but on the Holocaust thing, here’s one from J. R. R. Tolkien;

    There was a solemn article in the local paper seriously advocating systematic exterminating of the entire German nation as the only proper course after military victory: because, if you please, they are rattlesnakes, and don’t know the difference between good and evil! (What of the writer?) The Germans have just as much right to declare the Poles and Jews exterminable vermin, subhuman, as we have to select the Germans: in other words, no right, whatever they have done.

    You want a lesson from the Holocaust, here it is; there are people out there who are not Nazis, who have nothing to do with the Nazis, who loathe and despise the Nazis, but who are ready and willing to be exactly like them under the right circumstances.

  131. Chris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 4:59

    though my host dad smoked like a chimney

    Hence the expression in French, “To smoke like a Turk.”

  132. Xecklothxayyquou Gilchrist said,

    August 9, 2010 at 5:02

    Filipinos are Catholic, so they might come out OK.

    Not all. Most southern Filipinos are Muslim and many others are animist.

    This is all as may be, but I think these distinctions will all be lost on the kind of violence-head dumbshit who is likely to be causing them trouble, so T&U is right to be concerned.

    I mean, we’re talking about the kind of dimbulb who would beat up Sikhs for wearing turbans, as an anti-Muslim act.

  133. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 5:04

    T&U is right to be concerned.

    Exactly. These people are both profoundly ignorant (and often stupid as well) and irrational. It is their fear of the other and their ignorance which makes them dangerous.

  134. The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge said,

    August 9, 2010 at 5:12

    Well, Tolkien is an Anglicization of “tollkühn”—foolhardy.

    Nowadays you’d have to be tollkühn to make a similar statement about the “goddam Ay-rabs”. At least not if you’re running for anything—you’d be down as an Islamofascist or worse.

  135. jim said,

    August 9, 2010 at 5:13

    McCarthy is a protofascist, like far too many on the right, and the mainstreaming of this kind of rhetoric is really scary.

    The fatal fallacy of the right’s Kulturkampf is to assume that the track upon which the Overton Window slides is of infinite length.

    To find this process more advanced than it is in America, you now have to go to places like Burma or China or Saudi Arabia.

    Legal wiretapping? Torture? Overturning habeas corpus? Assassination by remote-control? Massive bailouts for economic sabotage? Unlimited corporate budgets for political campaign-ads? Blanket pardons for domestic war-criminals? Secret prisons?

    If it looks like a junta, walks like a junta, & quacks like a junta, I’m going to go out on a limb & say that it’s not actually a duck after all.

  136. mycroft said,

    August 9, 2010 at 5:29

    Apropos of nada, I am listening to Tuxedomoon’s lovely Desire/No Tears album. The cover of Night and Day is definitely my favourite postpunk rendition of a Cole Porter classic.

  137. lobbey said,

    August 9, 2010 at 6:08

    McCarthy is a protofascist, like far too many on the right, and the mainstreaming of this kind of rhetoric is really scary. Check out Dave Neiwert’s work on rightwing extremism and its mainstreaming by movement conservatives over the past couple of decades (

    Yes, am a big fan of Dave Neiwart, although i always have trouble remember which site he moved to after he closed down his own site.

    You know, its got hilarious now, certain figures on the right bang on about how us liberals/socialist/sparkleponiest are a bunch of fascists for believing in health care or universal education or some such shit. Then, they come out with articles like this one, basically pointing a way to what anyone sane would describe as eliminationist, at best. And they say irony is a lost art.

    I sometimes feel like giving up, and just reading the sports pages.

    OK, back to boobies…..

  138. Doctorb said,

    August 9, 2010 at 6:14

    He was so cute in The Breakfast Club though. It’s like if Ally Sheedy wrote a terrible death-to-America screed.

  139. lobbey said,

    August 9, 2010 at 6:22

    Well, truly the sign of end times, LGF has large adverts for ‘Muslim Matrimonials’

    Charles has gone full dhimmi… the site is actually OK now, although taking themselves a tad too seriously… and no PENIS……

  140. Andrew McCarthy said,

    August 9, 2010 at 6:22

    In opposition to the “Ruling Class”: The “Country Class” &/or the “Country Party.”

    I am a proud Country Member.

  141. justme said,

    August 9, 2010 at 6:44

    and we need to understand how you turn decent people into monsters.

    Skimming the subject of the thread, I can’t say it’s all that much of a mystery. Looking at the Mighty Wurlitzer in general, the path seems marked with flares.

    I suppose it’s a credit to the nation that even in the face of such a concerted and powerful effort, we remain, by whatever slim margin, reasonably sane as a whole. Watching us barrel down the flight deck with the likes of Beck and Limbaugh (and Palin and Boehner and Cornyn and and and) waving the traffic wands in some grand, circular epilepsy hardly gives me wellsprings of hope that we can continue as such indefinitely.

  142. Bilo said,

    August 9, 2010 at 6:47

    Lobbey:

    David Neiwert shut down his blog? Orcinus is still up, just not much new there lately. Most recent post is by Sara, April 2010, “None Dare Call it Sedition”, and I recommend it.

    Now he’s at Crooks and Liars.

  143. noen said,

    August 9, 2010 at 6:55

    “we need to understand how you turn decent people into monsters.”

    We are all monsters. Civilization is the mask that we wear in order to get things from other people. To get someone to drop the mask all you have to do is convince them that the Other is coming to take all your stuff and he can’t be reasoned with.

  144. Angry Geometer said,

    August 9, 2010 at 9:02

    whatever slim margin, reasonably sane as a whole. Watching us barrel down the flight deck with the likes of Beck and Limbaugh (and Palin and Boehner and Cornyn and and and) waving the traffic wands in some grand, circular epilepsy hardly gives me wellsprings of hope that we can continue as such indefinitely.

    I think it’s a mark of progress how ugly a lot of stuff is getting. 2010-2012 will be the last stand for a lot of right-wing shibboleths. Some form of universal health care will be taken for granted in a few years. People will give even less of a shit about legalization of gay marriage and marijuana, a black guy being president, etc. By 2012 it’s a safe bet the left will be able to declare overwhelming victory on every social issue of 1960′s and 70′s. (Not so much on the economic issues. Sorry poor people; our bad! Here, have some pot and sodomy — it’ll make you feel a bit better.)

    The more liberal the country gets, the crazier their rhetoric has to get. Think of how viciously racist and stupid some of the minority parties in Europe are. The natural endpoint is people like McCarthy being even more overtly racist than they are now, but playing to a significantly smaller audience.

  145. Jack Elam said,

    August 9, 2010 at 9:16

    The Muslim is the Jew of fascist fascism.

  146. Anonymous said,

    August 9, 2010 at 12:22

    Digression: does anyone know what this guy is going on about in his anti-Prop 8 editorial?

  147. Chris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 12:57

    You know, its got hilarious now, certain figures on the right bang on about how us liberals/socialist/sparkleponiest are a bunch of fascists for believing in health care or universal education or some such shit. Then, they come out with articles like this one, basically pointing a way to what anyone sane would describe as eliminationist, at best. And they say irony is a lost art.

    It’s just a matter of perspective. We, like most normal people, object to fascism because it involves dictatorships, starting wars for no reason, and killing off minorities in the name of national security. They object to it because it provided health care for all its citizens.

  148. dexitroboper said,

    August 9, 2010 at 13:31

    Andy McCarthy said:
    I am a proud Country Member.

    We remember.

  149. passionately wrong footed said,

    August 9, 2010 at 14:17

    The Israelis inherited terrorism. The Jews invented it for fighting their insurrections against the Romans around 73CE. People have such short memories these days.

  150. tigris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 14:39

    Digression: does anyone know what this guy is going on about in his anti-Prop 8 editorial?

    It’s pretty awful (English professor?!!) but I believe he’s saying different-sex marriage requires special status because women are weak and need protecting.

    And Holy God, do NOT read the comments.

  151. Ted the Slacker said,

    August 9, 2010 at 14:39

    Digression: does anyone know what this guy is going on about in his anti-Prop 8 editorial?

    Not wanting to get technical or anything, but he’s got problems recognizing the difference between “matrimony” and “fucking”; also, has Mel Gibson’s views about What Women Want.

    Still, it’s no worse than what Douthat routinely churns out for Tbogg’s benefit.

  152. Chris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 14:44

    The Israelis inherited terrorism. The Jews invented it for fighting their insurrections against the Romans around 73CE. People have such short memories these days.

    If you read the book of Macchabee, it proudly recounts what would be considered terrorism by any modern definition. Actually, it’s very hard to read it and not think of the Taliban, Hamas or any number of present day Islamist movements.

    (Not that the Seleucids were any better, and the Hebrews certainly aren’t the only people to have used it as a weapon against a stronger power).

  153. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 14:53

    “Marriage is a necessary defense of a woman’s sexuality and her human liberty from determined assault by men who would turn her into a slave, a concubine – something less than fully human. Human communities need to give women some additional degree of protection – through law, custom, religious decree, or sacrament – generally some combination of all three, neatly summarized by the plaintiffs, who demanded the sacred and the eternal from the state of California.”

    HOLY FUCK.

  154. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 14:54

    HOLY FUCKING FUCK. I didn’t realize having a marriage certificate = not being raped. And if I have to be married to be “protected” from being a concubine, than I’m already less than human.

  155. Chris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:02

    Heckuvan article, Brownie.

    Unions of men and women are uniqueThat’s why it has never occurred before to lawmakers (or any human society of which I am aware) to offer marriage to pairs of lovers that happen not to include a woman, or that involve only women and not a man.

    No, it never occurred to them because no pair that involved only women or only men would have made it to the church or to court openly without being stoned to death until about thirty or forty years ago.

  156. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:04

    Douchehat’s column is equally dumb, although possibly a little more coherent.

  157. Chris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:04

    Heterosexual relationships need marriage because of inferiority: the physical inferiority of sexual defenders to sexual attackers and the moral inferiority of male sexual attackers

    Wow.

  158. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:05

    I mean, dude is basically saying that legalizing gay marriage will lead to rape. I have to admit that’s one I didn’t see coming…

  159. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:08

    Heterosexual relationships need marriage because of inferiority: the physical inferiority of sexual defenders to sexual attackers and the moral inferiority of male sexual attackers

    Apparently, this asshate believes all gay men are these buff monstrosities, and that Matthew Shepard should have manned up and kicked the crap out of his killers, Chuck Norris style.

  160. Chris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:09

    I mean, dude is basically saying that legalizing gay marriage will lead to rape. I have to admit that’s one I didn’t see coming…

    They’ve been saying for years that gay marriage would lead to child molesting. Mind you, given the behavior of their pastors and priests, I can see why they’d think that.

  161. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:11

    “Asshate.”

    Typo, but I like it.

  162. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:12

    if I have to be married to be “protected” from being a concubine, than I’m already less than human.

    In their world, you always have been.

  163. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:16

    In their world, you always have been.

    Oh, I was never deluded enough to think that conservatives considered me to be fully human; I’m just surprised to see it spelled out so blatantly. I guess I probably shouldn’t be.

  164. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:16

    Unions of men and women are uniqueThat’s why it has never occurred before to lawmakers (or any human society of which I am aware) to offer marriage to pairs of lovers that happen not to include a woman, or that involve only women and not a man.

    Doesn’t get out much does he? As we discussed previously, there are literally hundreds of societies around the world which allow, or did in the past, same sex (different gender) marriage. Try Lakota, Cheyenne, Salish, Illiniwek, Tewa, Ibo, Lesotho, Nuer, Iban, Tahitian, an Hawaiian, just for starters.

  165. N__B said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:19

    “Marriage is a necessary defense of a woman’s sexuality and her human liberty from determined assault by men who would turn her into a slave, a concubine

    Those of us in intimate relations with hedgehogs must protect them from men who would turn them into porcupines.

  166. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:19

    Try Lakota, Cheyenne, Salish, Illiniwek, Tewa, Ibo, Lesotho, Nuer, Iban, Tahitian, an Hawaiian, just for starters.

    Those are brown people, and so uncivilized. Why, I bet they walk around half-undressed!

  167. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:20

    Marriage is a necessary defense of a woman’s sexuality and her human liberty from determined assault by men who would turn her into a slave, a concubine

    Ah, the Strawmen Of Gor argument.

  168. DrDick said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:20

    OK. Have to go as I have a date with a mountain. If you are good, I will bring back pictures.

  169. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:23

    Have to go as I have a date with a mountain.

    Ah, yes, the “mountin’” I understand. Say hi to DKW’s mom for us.

  170. smedley said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:37

    And you can keep the pictures for your own “amusement.”

  171. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:39

    Yea rilly. I mean, it’s not like we all haven’t seen her naked. Several times. Usually under duress.

  172. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:40

    If you are good, I will bring back pictures.

    *yawn* Wouldn’t be anything I haven’t seen before.

  173. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:40

    Dammit!

  174. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:41

    *sipping herbal tea quietly*

    Nice couch you got in here…

  175. N__B said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:43

    T&U: marriage is a necessary institution to prevent Actor from stealing your lines, you concubine-in-waiting you.

  176. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:45

    T&U: marriage is a necessary institution to prevent Actor from stealing your lines, you concubine-in-waiting you.

    I should be that lucky.

  177. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:47

    Nice couch you got in here…

    Thanks! It’s a Florence Knoll.

  178. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:47

    T&U: marriage is a necessary institution to prevent Actor from stealing your lines, you concubine-in-waiting you.

    It doesn’t seem to be working…

  179. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:51

    Well, if you Knoll Florence like I Knoll Florence, you’ll understand why I think this is so comfortable.

  180. tigris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:53

    Marriage is a necessary defense of a woman’s sexuality and her human liberty from determined assault by men who would turn her into a slave, a concubine

    How nice that these things stopped happening with the invention of marriage.

  181. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:54

    How nice that these things stopped happening with the invention of marriage.

    Shut up and bring me a beer, willya?

  182. tigris said,

    August 9, 2010 at 15:58

    No, but here’s a metamucil and a multi-vitamin; you’re looking a little peaky.

  183. Darth Revan said,

    August 9, 2010 at 16:02

    Heterosexual relationships need marriage because of inferiority: the physical inferiority of sexual defenders to sexual attackers and the moral inferiority of male sexual attackers

    What the fuck kind of twisted, morally bankrupt assumptions do you have to have to get here? If women are so inferior as to need the protection of powerful male uebermenschen, why not attach as many of the weaker sex to one strong domineering charismatic cult leader upstanding citizen as possible?

    And here I was thinking partners in marriage ought to be equal. Silly me.

  184. N__B said,

    August 9, 2010 at 16:02

    No, but here’s a metamucil and a multi-vitamin

    The concubines are revolting!

  185. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 16:04

    The concubines are revolting!

    Well, they haven’t all put on their make up yet.

  186. TruculentandUnreliable said,

    August 9, 2010 at 16:05

    This is especially fucking shitty in light of the fact that victimization of women occurs within marriage all of the time. Given the percentage of women who have been victims of domestic abuse at the hands of men, heterosexual marriage seems to be falling down on the fucking job!

  187. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 16:05

    I for one welcome my concubine unterfrau. At last, a captive audience for my etchings!

  188. Rusty Shackleford said,

    August 9, 2010 at 16:15

    Need new thread. This one smells like feets and ass

  189. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 16:16

    HEY! Why do you hate your leprotic fellow Americans so, Rusty???

  190. Rusty Shackleford said,

    August 9, 2010 at 16:18

    Hansen’s Diseasotic, please.

  191. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 16:19

    Hansen’s Diseasotic, please.

    SOME of us are falling apart for no “apparent” reason!

  192. Ted the Slacker said,

    August 9, 2010 at 16:21

    Women the percentage of women who have been victims of domestic abuse at the hands of men, heterosexual marriage seems to be falling down on the fucking job!

    The wife-beater’s case, clearly, is that yeah, you got beaten up by me, but if weren’t for me you’d have been gang-raped already.

    Unrelated, a classic from ASW:

    Foreign aid sucks. Ps. Aid which subsidizes war-profiteering is great of course.

  193. Lurking Canadian said,

    August 9, 2010 at 16:23

    Well, you see, T&U, the problem is that women are weak and unable to protect themselves, whereas men are violent shitbags who want to rape and abuse women.

    So we created the institution of marriage to shackle women to men in order to protect them from … Hmmm. I may have detected a small flaw in the plan.

  194. N__B said,

    August 9, 2010 at 16:28

    Marriage was intended to shackleford women to Rusty? Who knew?

  195. Rusty Shackleford said,

    August 9, 2010 at 16:29

    OT: VDH storms out onto porch in bathrobe, orders adults off his lawn

  196. Rusty Shackleford said,

    August 9, 2010 at 16:30

    Marriage was intended to shackleford women to Rusty? Who knew?

    heheheheheheheh

  197. Ted the Slacker said,

    August 9, 2010 at 16:36

    I may have detected a small flaw in the plan.

    No, there’s no flaw. When the groom says “I do”, he turns into a Chuck Norris-McJesus superhero. (And obviously Teh Ghey must not be allowed to sully this sacrament.)

  198. LittlePig said,

    August 9, 2010 at 17:04

    Ah, the Strawmen Of Gor argument.

    Awesome.

  199. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 18:07

    Awesome.

    Not original. Someone used that on one of my posts here once. I, too, thought it was awesome.

  200. Paul Luscher said,

    August 9, 2010 at 19:19

    The Right-Wing Mantra: “Freedom: We had to destroy it to save it.”

  201. DAS said,

    August 9, 2010 at 21:07

    Because Israel really does face an existential threat and really has suffered sustained terrorist violence on a level that we can scarcely imagine in the US. – noen

    Just don’t say that at young Matt Yglesias’ place. The resident anti-Zionists (who are not at all anti-Semitic, no way, no siree-bob) would deny that Israel faces any threat and if Israel would just grant anyone remotely related to any Palestinian Arab who was expelled, fled, left for an extended vacation in 1947 the whole mid-east would be hunky-dory and since Israel doesn’t do that, every single problem the mid-east faces is the fault of the Jews Zionists.

    So you might very well be willing to make an alliance with the Christian right, knowing full well how crazy they are

    Pace Chris’ comments above about how many of us Jews are Democrats, the Jews who are actively aligning themselves politically with the religious right really don’t know how crazy the Christian right is. IME, the Jews most aligned politically with the Christian right are those who grow up in de facto Jewish “ghettos” in NYC or suburban NJ, Rockland County and Long Island and who have not even met a religious, white Protestant until they have gone to college.

    For many Jews in the NYC area, “the goyim” are as much of a mysterious people to be both sneered at and fawned over as the only, real Americans (TM) as they were a couple of generations ago. There are a whole bunch of mini-Bobo Brooks’ out there believe you me!

  202. Smut Clyde said,

    August 9, 2010 at 21:23

    it has never occurred before to lawmakers (or any human society of which I am aware) to offer marriage to pairs of lovers that happen not to include a woman, or that involve only women and not a man.

    It requires sustained effort to maintain that level of ignorance about contemporary countries, other cultures, and Christian history. It does not happen by accident. The phrase “of which I am aware” is a warning flag.

    Not original. Someone used that on one of my posts here once. I, too, thought it was awesome.
    First used by one actor212, says the Gazoogle.

  203. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 21:24

    For many Jews in the NYC area, “the goyim” are as much of a mysterious people to be both sneered at and fawned over as the only, real Americans (TM) as they were a couple of generations ago.

    In fairness, we pay bust-out retail…

  204. actor212 said,

    August 9, 2010 at 21:28

    First used by one actor212, says the Gazoogle.

    Y’know, I’m trying to be humble here…

    HAH! Found it. It was Hooiser X

    http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/7904.html#comment-340460

  205. BlackBloc said,

    August 9, 2010 at 22:31

    Heterosexual relationships need marriage because of inferiority: the physical inferiority of sexual defenders to sexual attackers and the moral inferiority of male sexual attackers

    Wait, I thought feminists were supposed to be the man-haters?

  206. Bilo said,

    August 11, 2010 at 2:37

    Certain breeds of conservatives are mankind-haters. As a part-time misanthrope, I know what they’re fumbling towards, but I hate it when they take it towards self-flagellation (We’re not worthyyy! We suuuck!) and bowing and scraping towards a deity (one who is not as kewl as, say, Alice Cooper.)

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