Oh my my, oh hell yes.
Now this is what I like to see (via B-Som):
Only two weeks after earning the Democratic nomination in a mostly civil primary election, Jim Webb dialed up the rhetoric Tuesday, verbally carpet-bombing Sen. George Allen over differences the two have on flag burning.
Allen campaign manager Dick Wadhams had accused Webb of being “beholden to liberal Washington senators” because he was against the Allen-supported flag-burning amendment to the Constitution that died in the Senate on Tuesday.
Webb considered the comments to be an attack on his patriotism because he objects to tinkering with the First Amendment.
“George Felix Allen Jr. and his bush-league lapdog, Dick Wadhams, have not earned the right to challenge Jim Webb’s position on free speech and flag burning,” Webb spokesman Steve Jarding said in a press release. “Jim Webb served and fought for our flag and what it stands for, while George Felix Allen Jr. chose to cut and run.
“When he and his disrespectful campaign puppets attack Jim Webb, they are attacking every man and woman who served. Their comments are nothing more than weak-kneed attacks by cowards.”
At last! This is how you deal with bullies, children: you sock it right back at ’em. Watch how quickly they back off once you show them you’ll fight back:
Webb was a Marine in Vietnam, serving as a rifle-platoon leader and company commander. He received the Navy Cross, the Silver Star, two Bronze Stars and two Purple Hearts, Jarding noted.
Wadhams said he was surprised that Webb was offended.
“I didn’t think anybody attacked his patriotism,” Wadhams said. “I don’t see how anybody could attack Jim Webb’s patriotism.”
Yeah, well, I don’t see how anyone could attack John Kerry’s or Jack Murtha’s patriotism either. But it happened, repeatedly.
“This is straight out of the Republican playbook … taking a candidate’s strength and trying to turn it into a weakness,” Denny Todd said. “It’s what Chris LaCivita did with Swift Boats against John Kerry.”
LaCivita helped orchestrate the “Swift Boat Veterans for Truth” attacks during the 2004 Bush campaign. He now works for Allen.
“It’s been said that Democrats aren’t willing to fight back in campaigns,” Denny Todd said. “Well, we’re willing. We’re not letting them get away with it.”
Jarding certainly held nothing back Tuesday when he launched Webb’s broadside.
“While Jim Webb and others of George Felix Allen Jr.’s generation were fighting for our freedoms and for our symbols of freedom in Vietnam, George Felix Allen Jr. was playing cowboy at a dude ranch in Nevada,” Jarding said. “People who live in glass dude ranches should not question the patriotism of real soldiers who fought and bled for this country on a real battlefield.”
Dems take note: people will respect you if you stand up for youself. They will not respect you whining about how mean your opponents are.
Not to rain on y’all’s Republican-turned-Democrat parade, but am I the only one who finds Webbs’ suggestion that only veterans can talk about patriotism to be disturbing in its own right? The flag-burning amendment is entirely odious, as are those who’d question the patriotism of those who oppose it. But the answer is not to up-the-ante on our already out-of-control milatarism by suggesting that free speech and/or patriotism is some special province of those who’ve served in the military. George Allen has every right to his idiotic opinions. It is, for the moment at least, still a free country.
“People who live in glass dude ranches should not question the patriotism of real soldiers who fought and bled for this country on a real battlefield.�
Now that is some hellacious political dialogue. I hope that clumsily pandering flag burning issue bites the GOP in it’s fat, elephantine ass.
Wouldn’t it be funny if “potential presidential nominee” Allen went down in flames in his Senate race?
Not to rain on y’all’s Republican-turned-Democrat parade, but am I the only one who finds Webbs’ suggestion that only veterans can talk about patriotism to be disturbing in its own right? The flag-burning amendment is entirely odious, as are those who’d question the patriotism of those who oppose it. But the answer is not to up-the-ante on our already out-of-control milatarism by suggesting that free speech and/or patriotism is some special province of those who’ve served in the military. George Allen has every right to his idiotic opinions. It is, for the moment at least, still a free country.
That’s not what he’s saying. He’s taking Allen’s ridiculous assertions about Webb’s reasons for opposing the flag burning amendment and throwing them right back in his shit-stained face. This is how you win campaigns against bullies, my friend. Being polite isn’t going to cut it.
I don’t think the Webb campaign’s comments suggest that only veterans are capable of patriotism, but that veterans ought to get a presumption of patriotism, at least as far as non-veteran politicos running against them are concerned.
Ben, you have a point, but it’s less disturbing to me than the smarmy, mawkish flag-wrapping displays of posturing republicans.
I would say of course in general military service is not a trump-card of patriotism. But in specific cases, like when a vet is in a political race against someone who got a college draft-deferment (presumably) yet who persists in trying to out-patriot his opponent, it’s certainly fair game to throw military service, or it’s lack, into the mix.
But in specific cases, like when a vet is in a political race against someone who got a college draft-deferment (presumably) yet who persists in trying to out-patriot his opponent, it’s certainly fair game to throw military service, or it’s lack, into the mix.
Yep. And it’s fun to call your opponent a pussy too. Which is what I woulda done if I were Webb. But I’m not, so I didn’t.
This is how you win campaigns against bullies, my friend. Being polite isn’t going to cut it.
I’m not talking about being polite. I’m saying that I don’t want to live in a country where love of country is reduced to military service, where there’s any suggestion that those who don’t serve in the military are necessarily cowards. This country is about more than just its armed forces (or at least it should be).
While I agree that one has to be ruthless and impolite in defeating folks like Allen, progressives don’t need to embrace a strategy of out-militarizing the GOP and/or supporting sometime Republicans.
I love the repeated use of “George Felix Allen Jr.” — Felix is so effete, and the “Jr.” makes Allen sound like the Mongo-ish manchild he is.
And come on, “Dick Wadhams”? That’s a douchebag’s name straight out of central casting.
Release the hounds!
If you’re casting for a porn flick, it’s perfect.
Brad, Webb’s attack dog/spokesman called Allen a weak-kneed, cowardly, draft-dodging dude. “Pussy” is in the subtext.
Besides, like the political scientist Farnsworth at the link said: “If this is what politicians are saying in June, I can’t imagine what they’ll say in November.” They’ll probably have lapped pussy by then.
I mean, gone way beyond pussy by then.
Wait a second — are you
Mike Crain, *the* Karatist Preacher? I’m humbled by your presence.
While I join Morbo in finding the mawkish patriotism of warmongering Republican draft-dodgers particularly awful, my problem is with views like Dan Somebody’s:
I don’t think the Webb campaign’s comments suggest that only veterans are capable of patriotism, but that veterans ought to get a presumption of patriotism, at least as far as non-veteran politicos running against them are concerned.
Here are some prominent veterans who’ve been involved in American political life:
Joe McCarthy
Edwin Walker
G. Gordon Liddy
Richard Nixon
Donald Rumsfeld
I wouldn’t want to give these folks any kind of “presumption of patriotism” over anybody. People can be patriotic in many different walks of life. People join the military for all sorts of reasons. Especially since we’ve gone to an all volunteer military, our service-people simply don’t reflect the political diversity of our country. Yes, serving in time of war takes bravery. But so does being a firefighter. Or participating in Freedom Summer. I’m happy to call war-mongering draft dodgers out for supporting wars fought with others’ blood. But I am not willing to say that all veterans are more patriotic than those who haven’t served, nor even that, all else being equal, one can assume that a particular person who has served is more patriotic than someone who hasn’t.
I love it when they lap pussy….
People who live in glass dude ranches
Hee hee.
Wait a second — are you
Mike Crain, *the* Karatist Preacher? I’m humbled by your presence.
I can knock over stacks of wood using only my fists and righteous anger.
Time to put on your party dress.
All of a sudden, I feel a big weight lifted. Like, someone has some balls AND a D after their name. I hope he inspires the rest of those fighting for office on his side.
Better yet, this can be summed up with a simple, “DUUUUUHHHHHH.”
We can only hope. It’s not easy taking down an incumbent Senator, but Allen is clearly worried, or else he wouldn’t have unleased the furious attacks. I’ve also seen the shiny campaign ads promoting his high-tech “accomplishments” running for a few weeks now, specifically targeted at the affluent Northern Virginia tech sector. Pretty slick stuff, but let’s wait until the mud really starts to fly.
And FWIW, I agree that Webb’s not saying “only members of the military can be patriotic” but that the attack on him was spurious and he’s not going to take it lying down (which, as Brad so adroitly points out, is preferable to whining – a point that should be self-evident). I voted for Webb over Harris Miller because despite my misgivings about the Republican-turned-Democrat, he seemed more willing to stand up for himself, and that’s more important than any one political issue.
Ben, you have the frustrating quality of being convincingly correct–but only in general, idealistic terms.
I am not convinced it’s out of bounds in a campaign, which has to have drama else it winds up like Ben Afflack’s SNL skit as James Carville:
(Kerry drones on about something)
Affleck/Carville:zzzzzzzzzz. I’m sorry I fell asleep and when I woke up you had done lost the election!!!
But I am not willing to say that all veterans are more patriotic than those who haven’t served, nor even that, all else being equal, one can assume that a particular person who has served is more patriotic than someone who hasn’t. Very true, but besides the point in a campaign.
Webbs’ suggestion that only veterans can talk about patriotism to be disturbing in its own right?
I gotta say I don’t read it like that at all. I don’t think he’s saying vets are the only ones even deserving of the presumption of patriotism. He’s actually saying that to question the patriotism of your opponent, because he doesn’t walk in lockstep with the pandering wingnuts and their Rove inspired talking points is not acceptable discourse. But he IS saying that for someone who didn’t go to impugn the patriotism of someone who did is unacceptable, and he’s not going to allow that attack on himself, and nobody else should either.
Now I don’t always agree with Jim Webb, any more than I do Wesley Clarke. But I respect the hell out of him. The man has a bunch of gifts and would do good things for his constituency. And for what it’s worth, he wrote one of the three or four BEST books to come out of the Vietnam war. It’s called “Fields of Fire“. If you have any interest in what it was like over there, read it. Now.
mikey
I don’t think it’s a matter of only patriots being allowed to have opinions on patriotism. It is a matter of jingoistic, warmongering chickenhawks, who like to send other people to fight their wars, questioning the patriotism of people who actually went and fought. There is a chasm between chickenhawks like George W. Bush, who ducked a war they supported out of cowardice, and people like Bill Clinton, who ducked a war they opposed out of principle.
I’ll be troubled if I hear Jim Webb criticizing principled opponents of war. But I haven’t heard that. I’ve heard him sticking it to a chickenhawk. That’s worth the price of admission.
The overall media narrative is that it’s ok for Republicans to launch attacks like this, because questioning Democrats’ patriotism is just what they DO, y’know, but when Democrats play the same game it’s all a bunch of tut-tutting about incivility and Democrats going negative and such.
Witness, for example, Somerby’s rehashing of the 2000 campaign, from later in the same post linked above. Bush repeatedly called Gore a liar, an exaggerator, an unethical guy who fundraises at Buddhist temples. And then when Gore reacted by criticizing the merits of Bush’s proposals – such as calling his tax cuts “risky” – the media fell all over itself condemning Gore’s “negativity”! This is, sadly, how the system works. Republicans have built a reputation as pit bulls, so no one ever calls them on acting like pit bulls, but God forbid anyone should ever attack them! Somerby writes further:
Good for Webb, I say, but it’s going to take a lot more people following in Webb’s footsteps for the media to get the message that what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. And to well-meaning people like Ben, I just shake my head when I see people analyzing statements like Webb’s in a vacuum, completely ignoring the scurrilous attack that prompted the reaction. “We all want Democrats to fight back… but no matter how nasty and unfair the attack, we must be scrupulously fair in our response, always obeying the Golden Rule!” I know this sort of criticism is motivated by the best of intentions, but it’s like the classic stereotype of milquetoast Dems.
In my mind, it’s always a balance between squishy, overly fairminded mewing and becoming just like our enemies. We don’t want to go too far in either direction.
(As an aside: Morbo and Steve, y’all should really differentiate which “Ben” you mean!)
I’m sorry, but is his name really ‘dick WADhams’? that’s beyond bizarre – what mean parents.
I was referring to the Ben who started this discussion. I didn’t realize another Ben had come along in the meantime. From one owner of a common name to another, you have my complete sympathy.
Dick Wadhams. Reminds me of Groucho saying that Peter O’Toole is double phallic.
I think another of Webb’s points was that there are different ways to support the country: An empty gesture like the flag burning ban should not be given more weight as “love of country” than military service. It struck me as a “put your butt where your mouth is” kind of argument.
It’s sort of the same as people whose total “support for the troops” amounts to a magnet on their car complaining that anti-war folks who help out veterans’ groups, donate to Gold Star families, fight for VA funding, etc. “hate the troops.”
I love the repeated use of “George Felix Allen Jr.� — Felix is so effete, and the “Jr.� makes Allen sound like the Mongo-ish manchild he is.
Also, remember that Allen’s father is an icon in Virginia, being the former coach of the Redskins. Just a reminder that this little shit isn’t quite the man his father was.
[…] Sadly, No! chimes in on how Democrats should treat this stuff. And they’re always funny, too. […]
I put my “Webb for Senate” yard sign out yesterday. Can’t start too early around here. I’ll be interested to see if it’s still there when I get home.
In defense of George Allen – he was merely confused, thinking that the issue was about burning the Confederate flag.
C&L has a nice clip of Barney Frank (D-MA) slapping back my very own Rick Renzi (R-AZ/VA). Schooled!!!!
We need a lot more of this.
Kinda sad that the demonstration of how to fight back comes from a former Republican. It’s like Clint Eastwood showing up in High Plains Drifter.
Ben,
We’re not so much saying that non-veterans can’t talk about the war as we are saying that non-veterans can’t wrap themselves in the flag and call a veteran a pussy. Speaking as a non-veteran, I’m perfectly willing to sacrifice my right to do that.
You may have noted that the Washington Post editorial tries vainly to call both Webb and Allen scurrilous, ridiculously having a go at Webb for stooping to playground rules in making fun of Allen’s middle name. To be fair, it locates most of the blame (rightly) with Allen. What it doesn’t say is that Webb’s response was politically canny.
This should be a new meme for Dems, along the lines of: ‘We don’t go around looking for fights; but we know how to end them.’
‘Feeeelix! Come get your Miaow Mix!’
Webb’s making two points at once: George Felix Allen Jr. is not the George Allen, and he’s also a big ol’ pussy.
I would love to see Jarding start one of his replies with “Dick Wadhams, if that really is his name, …”
[…] If there’s one thing I’ve always liked about Webb, it’s this: he camapaigns like a Republican. This means that instead of playing nice and hoping that voters will respond to his positive “ideas,” Webb goes right after his opponent’s head with a twelve-foot club. I remember how impressed I was all the way back in June when I saw how Webb responded to the Felix Campaign’s attempt to paint him as a flag-burnin’ hippie: Only two weeks after earning the Democratic nomination in a mostly civil primary election, Jim Webb dialed up the rhetoric Tuesday, verbally carpet-bombing Sen. George Allen over differences the two have on flag burning. […]